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A word of warning, this episode contains mature language depicting instances of sexual, physical and or emotional abuse of children. Martha Karoly, Bela's wife, is a lifetime companion, is a powerful partner in the karate gymnastics machine, but no one knows her.


She was never very prominent, never said anything. I don't remember her ever being in an interview.


Finally, she gave in, offered us this exclusive insight. Thank you for joining us. Marta said you're the unknown person. You kind of hide. You don't like this very much, do you?


Yeah, it's my favorite thing.


When the media would come in, she would always be in the office.


It was bla bla bla bla bla. That's why everybody knew Bella, because Marta didn't want to be in the media.


She was a hard person to read or get close to.


I would watch her and she would stand there all stoic and have her arms crossed.


But she could talk to those kids with very little words, with her eyes and with some compassion, but very stern and loud and knowing, gosh, you can't get away from Marta's voice.


It's a piercing voice that just echoes through whatever hall she's in.


Oh, Bella. Oh, what are you doing?


That Marta is definitely one of the most intimidating people I've ever seen in my life. She is very intense. She was the decider of our fate. Well, people will know the name Marta Karoly, both the coach and the head coach of the 96 Olympic team. Now add the title of national team coordinator. This is Episode six, The Rise of MARTA. Marta, hello, and what's the one thing you want to do for the women's program in this job?


Oh, our main goal to bring back the U.S. women's gymnastics that belongs on the medal contender situation. Bella Coralee in the U.S. team had returned from the 2000 Olympics in Sydney empty handed and frustrated USA Gymnastics needed a new plan, but the goal remained the same to win Olympic medals. And the federations still believed that the discipline and reputation of the KARALIS was the way to do it. So in January 2001, USCG announced Bella's replacement as national team coordinator.


His wife, Marta, a key for the program, is going to be unifying everybody, coaches and athletes. How do you do that? Absolutely. That's number one goal mentality. We want to prepare the girls to be able to put the team in front of individual goals and to understand that their contribution is great. USA Gymnastics had bought into this new semi centralized system and had no intention of going back, even though the other Karoly would be the national team coordinator.


Not much else would change. Camps would be mandatory and they would be held at the ranch.


It's extremely important because all the strong nations like Russia manias Chinese bad. My mind trying to get a centralized training center this year and that's a major advantage. We need that somehow to make an approach which is more team oriented.


Coaches welcome the change to Marta, like Tarsha Schweigert coach Casy Rice. After Bela, we were quite relieved, which sounds strange, but she had more logical plans in place. She had more communication, too tough and too strict and too negative and too, like I would call it, brutally honest, but better than Bella. Bella was very scary to talk to. I was fearful that I wasn't gonna say the right thing. I wasn't good enough. Tasha was one of the few gymnasts who had experienced Bella's national team coordinator and would now train under Mardas regime.


Like I still couldn't be honest with her, but I wasn't scared when I talked to her. For Marta and the executives at USA Gymnastics, it was important to make it clear that she was now in charge.


Enter Marta Carolynn no longer with the US team trained the way they had.


They would be stronger, they would be deeper, they would be her team the way she always wanted it, because they wanted to make it very clear that, like Bella was out in Marta was in, Bella tended to his property and his animals and faded from the gymnast's view.


There were a few times initially when he tried to come in and she was like, nope, you got to go.


Marta was quick to claim control and she was clear about who was and wasn't welcome. Since the mid 1980s, a sign had hung at the entrance to the gym, declaring no visitors or parents allowed inside. Marta extended that rule to anyone who would bring outside influence into the program. The national team training staff, which was led by Marta, did not want to have the nutritionist and the sports psychologist at the training camps.


In a part of the program, Nancy Marshall had been running a wellness program for USA Gymnastics since the early 90s under Marta, Nancy, and that program were out. The only person associated with the wellness program Marta agreed to keep was Larry Nassar. Larry had worked with the national team since the 80s. He'd been named national medical coordinator right before the 1996 Olympics under MARTA, Larry, continue to serve as the team doctor. She trusted that type of doctor that she liked.


Martin, is that a gymnast to compete no matter what? So he kept his mouth shut because he knew that he did not like it.


You know, he's a poser. Had been the Karalis go to choreographer for three decades afterwards.


You know, that the sweetest thing in the world is for vengeance. You know, in all his years working with the Karalis gays, I had always felt Marta was more vindictive than Bella, more rigid about her ideas. Shortly after she took over, he quit. Marta actually enjoyed power more than Bella. Mandatory monthly training camps at the ranch not only continued under Marda, they intensified the mind of the gymnast.


It's very clear when they come here, they come for one single reason to focus on their training every day. Mardas camps began with a military style lineup and intense conditioning and finished after hours of repetitions. Marta and the national team staff scrutinize the gymnasts every move. Each workout had the pressure of a full on competition.


We expect them to always do the personal best every try, every three seconds.


But in two thousand, Bela had been whittling a field of gymnasts down to those who he believed could take the pressure of the Olympic stage. Now, Marta was building. She increase the pressure in the competition between the gymnasts to keep them hungry. She'd seen it work for decades. She knew they would push each other, try to outperform one another, try to earn her favor, and that in doing so, they would all improve. Marta's goal was to build as deep a bench as she possibly could.


That's the one thing about the Crawley system is, is that there's so many numbers that you can treat these kids as disposable because there's always somebody else there. Scott Reed is an investigative journalist for the Orange County Register.


The 2003 World Championships were held in his backyard in Anaheim, California, when he covered the practice sessions leading up to the meet, he saw the U.S. team training intensely behind the scenes.


There was a lot coaches complaining about Marta. Why are you training so hard, so close to me?


While most teams rested their athletes right before a big international meet, Marta didn't believe in leaving room for rest and recovery. Right up until the day of competition, she trained her gymnasts to their limits and beyond. Every day was prove yourself and prove yourself to me again today. OK, next workout, prove yourself again to me today. And it was hard landing, hard landing, hard landing, hard landing. And that breaks kids.


Kasey Rice and her gymnast, Tasha Schweikert had to keep going because even as team captain, they knew Tasha was replaceable.


Tasha didn't break at that time, but she could barely walk. Her quads were so sore because it was too much hard landing impact. And, you know, we were trying to get massages and trying to get her to be able to walk, she couldn't tumble. You know, there's just so many things going on with her legs and being able to be at her best. We just had to keep going.


And just the indifference of murder to it, it was like, you know, we'll just put somebody else in. And that to me was. Wow, these kids are just cattle. These are the world championships of gymnastics and today will answer the question, which country has the best teams?


When Anaheim hosted the 2003 World Championships, you really saw the whole Kroy system up close.


Marta arrived at the world championships with eight athletes before the competition even started, three had to withdraw. We get to the world championships and it's like our Tamaz curse.


Carly Patterson was one of the five remaining gymnasts on the U.S. team. One girl gets the flu, can't compete and is totally out. Another girl tears her ACL. Another girl tears her Chelios.


By competition day, we were left standing with five competitors.


Tasha Schweikert was nursing an ankle injury.


Are we going to get disqualified because we don't have six competitors? Are we even allowed to compete with five people?


You know, I spoke with Marta Carolynn, USA team coordinator in the tunnel moments before the team marched in, and I asked her how they were dealing with this most recent setback. Her response? I can't believe all that's happened. We're still a team, though. We still think that we can win.


This is where a team of elite athletes who have all been subjected to the highest level of pressure and are ready to go at a moment's notice comes in handy.


Marta called up the team's third alternate and flew her into Anaheim. Martin Karoly apparently did quite a speech to this team, one of the things apparently that she said was this is a world for the tough. In other words, saying if you want to be part of it, you've got to be tough.


There was one gymnast in particular, Marta, expected that toughness from 15 year old Carly Patterson.


You know, Marta was definitely intimidating to me, but at the same time, we had a really good relationship. Marta saw potential in Cali, a gymnast she thought could help the team, but special enough to be her own star.


I think she saw that I was consistent. I was a hard worker and I was a good team worker.


She loved people that were good on being. The thing that's so great about Carly, I mean, is how she lands, particularly say she had. Write this on the beat that the international judges, they just create. As the competition pressed on, Carly and her teammates rose to the challenge. You'd have to say that's getting the job done. What a wonderful presentation. And Tosser hits another home run for the United States, nine point six. What that means for Team USA, they get through completely here.


They go to the next rotation with a huge advantage in the world championships. The United States women have never, ever won the all around gold medal. Right now, they're the leaders with one rotation to go.


In setting her lineup, Marta had decided that Carli was the one tough enough to stand up to the pressure. Carli would be the final American gymnast to perform on the final rotation.


That's. And by hitting all four tumbling passes of her floor routine, Harley did just that.


And so it is official.


The women of the United States right now here, as we all are the best team in the world, after losing your test and illness through all of the adversity that we had to face with basically having to come up with a whole new different team and then still be able to push through that end when it's very special. Marta Karoly had walked her team into Anaheim with the attitude that they would win no matter the cost. And it worked. I was very excited about how it turned out, how we won with only five people and then she got to take all the credit, Mara was the brains the whole time and now you're seeing it.


She's not messing around. There's a new sheriff in town. Bella kind of was at the periphery. You know, he's working the media and everything. But when the focus is on the floor, Mara was clearly in charge. So 2003 is really where it became Martis program.


And so now these young women will celebrate their smarted Karoly and Bella Carolee. Their vindication has to be clear because the direction of USA gymnastics chose to put faith in them and now the gold medal to show for it.


As Bella beamed with excitement, the TV cameras captured a glimpse of Marta, who looked calm as if everything had gone precisely according to plan. And from that moment on, Marty's plan became simple. Well, it has been four long years, Marta Crowley at the helm, and from the beginning they laid out a plan to get them to Athens. The expectations for Team USA could not be higher.


Marta put the U.S. back on the medal stand at the 2004 Olympic team USA took silver.


Marta just like grabbed my face and shifts like. Oh, my goodness. Carly Patterson has won the gold medal. Carly Patterson won gold in the all around for the first time since Mary Lou Retton in 1984.


I remember Bella standing in the hallway after they won in Athens and it was like, see, I told you so. This is validation. This works was like a victory tour. You know, we told you I was going to work and this is just the start.


Ladies and gentlemen, the 2005 World Gymnastics Championships. Each year, the U.S. became a more and more consistent force at the international level.


An amazing turnaround in world gymnastics at the moment. What a finish. The American girls have just come out here and blown everybody away. The 2007 World Gymnastics Championships. This and you get a quote from Martin Karoly, It's good news. Is so hard to say in gymnastics, but right now it feels like it's an American dynasty. USA Gymnastics, the number one team in the world. As he headed to Beijing for the 2008 Olympic Games. Yes, I'm telling you, the Americans went one to the gold, to Nastia Liukin and the silver to Shawn Johnson.


Wow, wow, wow.


And no one benefited from the success of MARDAS teams or the USA Gymnastics and its new president, Steve Penny, when former President Bob Colora resigned in 2005.


USA Gymnastics promoted its senior VP of marketing to replace him.


When Steve Penny was a USA cycling executive in the 90s, Lance Armstrong gave him the nickname Dayme because he was so good at selling the sport. And in gymnastics, strong results at the Olympics could mean millions of dollars.


Steve Penny was hired to develop all that went into USA gymnastics, including marketing and TV deals and all that. And he was great at it, absolutely brilliant at it.


But long time UCLA gymnastics coach Val Kandos Field had concerns about Penny's single minded focus, but he was blinded by the almighty dollar.


He was so consumed with winning medals because medals translate to money. That the the athletes simply became a commodity and pawns to earn that money. The key to getting all those medals that Steve Penny and USA Gymnastics turned into dollars was the Karalis, and that's what troubled VAO condos field as the coach of a top college program that attracted former elite gymnasts, well, mentored several young women who had come up through Martis system, she had seen the physical and emotional costs up close.


You can trust Marda to train the best gymnasts in the world. You can't trust Martta to care about those chimneys as human beings, Vall worry that Steve never seemed to question Mardas methods or provide any oversight. I asked him, I said, why do we let Martin get away with being so abusive to our young girls? And he looked at me like I was crazy. And he just said, because she wins BALLE. Walker County number one with Location Emergency and USA Gymnastics National Team Training Center, literally Raleigh ramp location of the emergency.


We need an ambulance. Absolutely not. And we've got to keep it rolling. They are going to do the Olympic training for the basket, peeled off later down on her toes and her hands and her elbows dislocated. Do the back. We have responded. I'm sorry. I'm a female athlete now. I'm getting an ambulance. I'm asking questions I'm required to ask. OK, all right. But if you don't want to waste time, you must remain in Iraq and Afghanistan and the families on the way you fall and ask for names like, OK.


And. The threat of injury to any gymnast training at the ranch was very real, but national team athletes were performing skills at such a high level that the smallest mistake or the slightest fatigue or existing pain could lead to a devastating injury.


The reality of what these amazing women do, just the acrobatics of it, the height, the power, the force journalist Scott Reed investigated the physical toll of elite gymnastics on young athletes. You can hear the impact.


And there's just this powerful kind of thought. And you're looking at this kid and you're thinking. What's it doing to her, her hips, her back, her knees? It reminded Scott of covering the NFL, standing on the sidelines and hearing the bone crushing impact of big tackles.


It's the same gut punch to you. Like, wow. I mean, that's. That's something, and it had similar consequences. Scott found that National Team Gymnast's had surgery at the same rate as those NFL players. He presented his data to USA Gymnastics and Marta Karoly.


So Marta says when we saw there was an injury, we got the gymnast to the right person right away. Well, that right person was Larry Nasser. Marta trusted national team doctor Larry Nassar, he never raised any red flags and he cleared the gymnast she needed to compete. Larry warned me.


To just be really, really, really careful about how you word things around her and injuries and saying that a gymnast can't go or anything like that, Melanie Seeman worked alongside Larry Nassar as a team athletic trainer.


She was quickly introduced to a culture that placed the program's needs ahead of the athlete's health and well-being.


This was said by a.


A USA staff member and I was sitting right in front of her when she said it, then I quote, Once these girls become national team members, they are property of USA gymnastics, and we will do with them as we please.


I walked into a championship one day to a little gymnast who had broken her foot and they were all in there, the coaches and the USA staff and Marta, and they were all talking about, well, what should we do? Should she go?


Should she not go in like. Why don't you ask her? Never once did they ask her, but she went, they typed her up and she went.


I was selected as an alternate to compete in the 2008 Olympics. And then I was doing a dismount on beam. And I felt like just like the sharpest, quickest pain.


And I couldn't really walk at all after that. And then I got home and and got an x ray and the brake was just like a straight line across my shin, just like a complete clean break.


Mattie Larson had to give up her dream of making the 2008 Olympic team because of that broken leg. After she recovered, she returned to the ranch, hoping she could make the 2012 team. But one day during training, Maddy misjudged a landing during her floor routine.


And I was trying to do a certain tumbling pass, you have to twist and then bounce into a flip. And from my twist and then bounce into the flip, my feet were kind of like sickled. I kind of like lost where I was in the air. So in the bounce, they just went and like, bounced into the flip. And I just felt them like crack and then kind of crumbled under me.


Matty was driven to the nearest hospital. It was a long, painful drive.


The drive is like two hours first along a narrow, bumpy dirt road that eventually led to the highway.


I just remember in the car, I was in the backseat and my feet just swelled up so quickly and it hurt so much. I just knew it was not going to be good.


Matty was x rayed and then she returned to the ranch for the final two days of camp. The pain in her ankles was so severe she couldn't put any weight on either foot.


So she couldn't stand on her own. She couldn't walk, but no one even offered her a wheelchair. And I still had to show up to practice every day. So I was literally crawling on my hands and knees. I wasn't even allowed to just like, sit and watch, like I still had to do something. So I'd be like sitting with just like broken feet, flopping around, like doing my arm curls. I never saw my X-rays. I don't know if my coaches on my X-rays, the only person I did was Larry Larry Nassar had told Matty her ankles were sprained.


When Maddy got home, her family doctor took a second set of X-rays and told her that her right ankle was clearly broken. The isolation of the ranch made it difficult for parents to get information when their daughters were injured. There was little to no cell phone service and there was still just that one payphone on the property. I would never hear from Jordan unless she called me. Rita Weaver's daughter Jordan was one of Marty's top juniors. Jordan made a point to call her mom every night after practice to check in.


And one night I didn't hear from her. And so I had to go to bed that night, not hearing from Jordan. I was so upset I don't even think I slept.


Rita finally got word the next day. Jordan sprained her ankle at practice and had been taken to the nearest emergency room.


She was not 18. She was like 11. Rita works as a nurse in the E.R. She knows that minors shouldn't be treated without their parents knowledge and consent. So it was really upsetting to me that she was medically treated without even me knowing that she was taken to an emergency department, without me knowing I never got a call or update. Jordyn Wieber had made the national team when she was just 11 years old.


You're just sending your kid off with their coach for five or six days, and you really are just trusting that someone's caring for them and has their best interests at heart. Rita had read Joan Ryan's book, Little Girls in Pretty Boxes, with its detailed accounts of eating disorders and injuries, she'd actually read it twice when Jordan was a preschooler, taking her first gymnastics classes and again when Jordan started training at the ranch. Oh, this is that this is that ranch that they talked about in that book.


And I went back and read the book again and once again was a little bit horrified by some of the stories, but decided that it was a long time ago.


Surely they have changed things.


Well, nobody would be allowed to coach that way anymore.


Rita was only allowed to go to the ranch once on Jordan's first visit. I just remember thinking that Jordan must be pretty good if she's getting picked to go there and just be happy that she's getting this opportunity because not everybody does.


It was easy just to take all those horror stories and the things that made me scared or concerned and just put them away, because you just kind of focus on the exciting moment that you're in. You don't ever question it. You just do it because you're lucky. And it's it's what you need to do if you're going to get to the Olympics, which is everybody's goal.


That was the culture that surrounded the entire ranch. The goal was success and medals, and everyone was going to do whatever Marta said to get there, especially gymnasts like Matty Larsen and Jordyn Wieber.


I wanted Marta's attention because I so badly wanted to reach my goals in gymnastics. I wanted to make the Olympic team. And there were steps you had to take in order to get to the Olympics. You had to catch your attention to get assigned to international needs, and you had to hit those international maids in order to keep going, because I've seen so many people get an assignment and then screw up and then never get another chance.


Marta was like. The boss, but she didn't do that much coaching, just kind of overseeing, which was a kind of even scarier to me, just like this, like silent persons, always looking around, making sure everything was in order.


Every time her eyes were on you, you knew that you you had to hit whatever you're doing. She was the decider of our fate.


Murdoch narrowly held all the cards, but she was someone gymnasts and their parents feared, she wasn't someone they could cozy up to or befriend, let alone get a real sense of how they were doing. And so they turned to the one person Marta did seem close with, the team doctor, Larry Nassar. He always would come across as though he had some secret information from Marta. And he was telling me like he was Marta's confidant and he knew all the secret plans that Marta had for every athlete.


I mean, he was the one that was going to keep you healthy so that Marta would pay attention to you and you would get your chance. Very similar to the Jordan River world champion, national champion Jordyn Wieber was a gold medal favorite heading into the 2012 London Olympics.


She's a powerful athlete. She's a smart athlete. I know her.


And I guarantee she's going to have a great competition coming up with a lot of people see as sort of the persona on the competition floor when in our heads there's a lot more going on.


During a pre Olympic training camp at the ranch, Jordan Shin began to hurt. Once the team arrived in London, the pain progressed.


I can do all the full assignments are tumbling. I need to do. And then it got to the point where I knew it was something a lot worse because I. I couldn't even walk when I got up in the morning.


Jordan went to the team doctor for an answer, but she got nothing. Larry didn't order any scans and he didn't tell her what he suspected. Instead, he told her teammate Aly Raisman.


Our doctor told Ali that it was a stress fracture and he was purposely not telling me. So I wouldn't think about it and it wouldn't I wouldn't get in my head.


Jordan was too important to the U.S. team. Marta needed her top athlete believing that she was in top shape.


Here in London, women's gymnastics gets underway tomorrow. The Americans attempting to win their first team gold since the Magnificent Seven back in 1996. The great coach, Bill Karoly joining me now. Why haven't we won a gold medal since 1996? Well, it is hard. It's hard on the team competition. I think that this shows the power of the nation at the gymnastic nation. And we really haven't had a phone system yet. That I'm introduced now is different.


We do have a system and this system creating a solid and sturdy, not just individual of great teams, but that's the big difference. The Karalis system created so much depth that the U.S. could have fielded three Olympic caliber teams in 2012. They came to London as the reigning world champions and heavy favorites. We welcome you inside the North Greenwich Arena, just east of central London. It is the opening day for women's gymnastics. This debut is called The Qualification.


There will be no medals awarded before the medal battles to come will be decided as far as who competes with them here in this competition.


Jordan had two national titles, a world title, and in London she was after Olympic gold.


But on the first day of competition, there were moments when that stress fracture she wasn't supposed to know about cost her a few tenths of a point here and there.


Oh, wow. Little back on, her heels on. It could be a little bit better, but certainly still going to get a very big score. Jordan was excellent but not dominant, which left her vulnerable because only two athletes per country could qualify for the individual all around.


And her teammates, Aly Raisman and Gabby Douglas, were also in the hunt.


All eyes on the scoreboard. It's got to be so awkward, right? Oh, yeah, it's extremely awkward. You know, they are friends, but they are they are very fierce competitors as well.


Twenty four gymnasts would move on to the all around final, but a maximum of two from each country. Team USA had taken the number two, three and four spots and qualified.


Jordan was the fourth best gymnast in the world that day, but the third best in the U.S. behind Gabby and Ali, she wouldn't get to compete for the all around title, looking up and seeing my name in fourth place, which is like fourth place in the entire world. I remember looking up and just thinking, oh, can they just change that?


Can they just let me compete? You know, I so desperately wanted them to just make an exception or something, but it just seemed unfair.


You know, I don't believe she'll ever fully erase the pain of not qualifying to the Olympic all around the way.


I was in London covering these Olympics when the scores came down and I realized what they meant, that the reigning world champion wouldn't even get a chance to compete in the all around. I looked for Jordan. She was standing with her head in her hands sobbing.


I expected to see her personal coach, John Gatot rushed to her side and comfort her, but he wasn't there.


Instead, he was walking off the floor. And in that moment of vulnerability, Marta approached Jordan. I remember her actually being really comforting about it and just, you know. I don't know, like carrying almost, which was weird, Marta understood the depth of Jordan's disappointment and reacted with compassion, she needed Jordan to come back stronger than ever in the team final the next day of practice.


It was OK, next job, I think I think a lot of people worried that I wasn't going to be able to turn it around, probably including her. I think she was watching just to see how I was going to respond that can she come back and she, you know, turn it around? Can she get over the devastation? And but I think gymnastics prepared me to be able to do that. Well, here we go into the women's team final at the London Games, the Beurden push through the pain of her injury and stood up to the pressure of the moment, just like she had been trained to do, get the gold.


National team coordinator, she has fallen short at the last two Olympic Games, not so here in London. The U.S. had won team gold for the first time in 16 years. Gabby Douglas became the first African-American all around champion in Olympic history, and the U.S. won both team and individual all around gold for the first time ever. Marta and Bela could have asked for no greater vindication than that.


What about this dynamic duo? How much? How much longer? Another Olympic Games. I just love my job. This is my passion and this is my life.


And I feel like definitely I would like to stay for a while and I would love to contribute to the success of U.S. gymnast. If you or someone you know has been subjected to sexual assault or abuse and you would like more information or support, these hotlines can help Rheins 24/7. Confidential National Sexual Assault Hotline, one 800 six five six four six seven three or Childhelp one 800 four two two four four five three. Thirty four thirty podcasts are presented by Albats, a sustainable shoe brand, this has been an uneasy year for the entire world.


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Coming up on the next episode of heavy metals and Olympic gold. Medalists in the all around sumo miles, nothing was ever good enough for Martin. He had to come as close to perfection as possible.


And I think that's what made us so good.


Get the gold medals ready.


Again, I'm 100 percent happy with my career. I could not wish for anything.


More allegations that strike at the heart of a very successful U.S. Olympic sport and the most famous tandem of gymnastics coaches in the world.


You want all the power, but none of the responsibility.


The gymnasts that are not under my control at all. Like, no, no, no, I had nothing to do with it. But it's like, yes, you did. You were there. You were there. Marta took us to the top of Mount Olympus. But when you look down, you see a lot of carnage. And I'm going to be looking at carnage for decades. Heavy metals was reported by me, Alissa Rolnik and Bonifant producers Andrew Mambo and Meredith Hoddinott, senior producer Julia Lowri Henderson, executive producers Libby Gaist and Aaron Liden mix engineering and sound design by metric Kabuli production management and licensing.


Louisiana's Kazansky and Jennifer Thorp, production assistants Riley Bloom, Gus Navarro, Samantha Dowd and Trevor Guille. Original music by Ian Costs, executive producers for ESPN, Herschelle, Rob King and Alison Overholt. This podcast was developed by Jenna Anthony and Adam Newhouse with help from Jody African additional production support from Amy Van Dewson and Eve Wolff, archival producer Julianna Branom.


John M. Berardino provided fact checking. Terry Langford did legal research, ESPN Audio, Tom Ricks, Megan Judge Pete, Jeanna Sweeney and Ryan Granter special thanks to Jenna Jahnavi and Elaine Tang, Jolene Van Vuit and the production teams at ESPN, L.A. and ESPN New York. This season of 34 30 podcasts was produced in association with ESPN W.