Talent wins games, but teamwork wins championships. Welcome to eight players. But guess what? We'll tell you how to target, hire, retain and train top performers for your team. I think eight players exist everywhere.

I think they exist in every industry. I do think intrinsic motivation is something that I have found in a player's generally. I think another thing that I see is being very proactive. And so, again, not waiting for somebody to tell you to do something, but identifying that challenge or that obstacle, the thing that just needs to be done. I've seen that at Yelp. I've seen that whenever I continue to see that at Retools. So I think while some of these traits are concentrated at retail, I definitely think that these traits also exist across companies across the world.

I am Robin Cho, CEO at Higher Suites, and we are sourcing automation software that helps nanotech companies hire the best out at me. And follow me now on LinkedIn. You want to keep an eye on this? Today, we're welcoming him and about to talk about eight players and how they hire a players, that little Amandas an extensive experience in recruiting and building teams. She worked at Yelp, she worked at Leever, and though she's working at retail, which is a huge up and coming Weisbach startup.

So welcome, Amanda. Thanks for your time today. Can you can you start by maybe introducing you, your experience and then retool what you do, what your your current challenges?

Absolutely. Very happy to be here. Robin, thanks so much for having me.

So as Robin mentioned, I've been in recruiting for about 10 years, joined retool after about four and a half years at Leever Applicant Tracking Software Company and currently at Ridgewell as the head of talent and retool is a fast way of building internal tools.

And so we have companies from very small startups up to enterprise level companies that you all have heard of, including Amazon, Dawid, Ash Cloud, et cetera.

Currently, the team is right around 30 total employees and we've been doing a lot with a little, which is really exciting. But we have aggressive headcount goals by the end of the year, hoping to be at least 50, ideally closer to 70 by the end of the year. So the team definitely has its work cut out for us. And then you also mentioned current challenges.

Right now, I think, like with a lot of other companies, we're working on really staffing and scaling our engineering team.

We are very fortunate to have two wonderful technical recruiters and then it's just me. So it is a team of three doing 100 percent of hiring and retail today. Nice, nice.

So for people who don't know about retail yet, it's really the next generation would say we see a way coming into a startup. We went through, we see ourselves and we kept hearing about retail is really this big name, though. So I heard David's speech at YRC about the Retools history. The company's very young, as you said. You're already working with Amazon and all those big names. What makes retail today to be considered a team of eight players?

Yeah, great question. There are a few attributes that I think really unite people every tool. So, one, folks are intrinsically motivated, meaning they are motivated to do their own best work, not only for themselves, but to also push their peers and the company forward. And so that motivation comes internally. And so I think that really motivates people to produce excellent work on their own as opposed to us chasing at their heels. People also work really well through ambiguity, retool.

You know, we're 30 people. So a lot of the processes that may exist at a company of one hundred or two hundred just don't exist at all today. And so we call ourselves retool. So Retools are really experienced and excited by working through that ambiguity.

And so even though there is not a lot of clarity around our day to day, being able to work through that and then finally, really smart, I feel really fortunate to learn from every single person on a weekly basis from folks at retail. And so I think it attracts people that are curious, internally motivated, that really appreciate and are excited by that ambiguity.

And then I think the final component around eight players is we tend to just figure stuff out even if it's not in our wheelhouse. And I think that's one of the exciting things about joining such a small startup.

But that is also really driving to very aggressive revenue growth and also had come across as well.

What's interesting is the traits are giving. They seem very specific to retool the uncertainty. For instance, I'm sure that's not something that you had a probably Yelp even if the company was younger. Would you say that there is such a thing as as an a player or a player? It's really depends on the company itself.

I think eight players exist everywhere. I think they exist in every industry. I do think intrinsic motivation is something that I have found in a player's generally. I think another thing that I see is being very proactive. And so, again, not waiting for somebody to tell you to do something, but identifying that challenge or that obstacle, the thing that just needs to be done. I've seen that at Yelp. I've seen that whenever I continue to see that at Retools.

So I think while some of these traits are concentrated at retail, I definitely think that these traits also exist across companies across the world.

Yeah, you'll probably want someone who's intrinsically motivated, was being proactive in any company in the world. So that's probably one of the most common traits that you'll find in these players. Do you think there are other traits, obviously being really smart? That's another thing that you mentioned, probably. And do you see other traits that might be connected to eight players globally or in any team? Yeah, absolutely.

I think the willingness to work outside of your comfort zone, I think a very large company is one of the great things is that your role is very defined and you know the lines that you're supposed to stay within your very crisp and clear goals. And that's great. But I think that there are still moments, even at large companies where things aren't super clear.

And so I think that ability to and willingness to do things outside of what is really in your job description, I think also points towards EA players. So folks that are willing to do the above and beyond going the extra mile is super important and something that I look for and not only just hiring for my team, but also as we continue to grow every.

Well, as well, and so that's something that I've experienced with a players in previous companies as well. OK, and do you have any specific tactics to identify those traits during the interview process? How do you know if someone goes outside of their comfort zone interview process?

To me, this isn't like secret sauce. To me, this is all based in behavioral based interviewing. And so what I mean by that is past behaviors are the best predictors of future success. And so we engage in storytelling throughout interviewing.

So instead of really relying on hypothetical questions. Right.

Because if you're asking a candidate, how would you achieve these goals, all candidates are going to put themselves in the best light possible. Right. But it's a hypothetical question.

And so really sticking to storytelling through actual example. So tell me about a time that you went above and beyond in your role. What motivated you to do that?

So actually getting specifics and then starting to identify those patterns over multiple answers, and that's where you tend to identify those traits or those habits of performance and going above and beyond.

And you ask questions based on the person's best experience, or do you ask always the same question and see how they reflect on the person's experience? What what are the questions that you would ask, for instance? Yeah, great question.

I'll answer your first question first, because I think that's super important. So consistent questions asking across multiple candidates is a best practice, right? So, one, it reduces bias because we're not tailoring different questions to different candidates. And so that way we're able to evaluate candidate to candidate. But at the same time, sometimes you are going to have to ask specific follow up questions. And so starting with the the same question and then following up with some digging questions, because, of course, all candidates are different.

But I think starting with that core question and then following up with some tailored digging questions, super impactful other questions that I tend to ask, tell me about a time that something was not clear and you had to bring that clarity. What was the outcome? And so, again, always coming back to that storytelling. And so what's really important is how is this person answering your question? How are they communicating and then evaluating the answer? Right. So was what they did actually exceptional or is it what you would expect somebody to do in that position?

I also dig into environments in which people have been successful and then trying to get a sense of is that the environment that they'd be stepping into here? Can we just not offer that?

And it's not if the candidate is good or bad, it's really not being too if they're going to be a great fit for the environment that we have in our company.

OK, interesting. That's a very good question. Tell me about a time that something wasn't clear and how did you deal with it? And that definitely tells about how people work with uncertainty. And how do you assess intrinsic motivation, Jeff? Questions? Well, yeah, absolutely.

So one question that I love is a tell me about a project that you recently worked on that you were really excited to tackle. Why were you excited about working on that? And the answer is very sometimes it's tied to business impact. Sometimes it's tied to personal interest. But the thing that I'm really listening for is if they're just talking about the fact that somebody, i.e., their manager or their CEO asks them to do this. So there's not really something personal to them that drove them to really bring that impact to the organization.

So instead they were assigned something and so they did it. To me, that is not intrinsic motivation.

I really appreciate the answers that show that they are personally they have like skin in the game. Right, about being able to bring impact to their company.

Cool. And give it to me. Give me give me a hold your interview questions, because these two are really nice for you. What other stuff do you ask? Yeah, great question.

Let me let me be thoughtful. I have I have several, but most of these are grouped into a specific interview. I do dig into onboarding, which I know might feel like, oh, whoa, whoa, they're not even hired yet.

But I do dig into onboarding because if you want to get a sense of how they learn best, a lot of the interview questions that I focus on with my candidate is about how to set them up for success in the environment that they're every tool.

And so if a candidate is really relying on a month long onboarding program, one that sounds amazing, but also for a 30 person company. Right. And so we just don't have that yet. And if that's the only way that they can learn that is that's something that we should consider.

Right. Do we really think that we'll be able to set this person up for success? Or is it a blend of I really love being able to have a tech lead to shadow? I had documentation to get a custom with the code base, but then I had plenty of time to be autonomous and dig in on my own. Great. That is definitely something that we can provide. It also will tap into self-awareness and getting a sense of are they aware of the environment into which they're stepping?

Right. So are they expecting a ton of resources or are they expecting hopping into a startup and having to figure some things out? I also asked about areas of professional development. So one like what is an area of professional development that you'd be excited to tackle in your next role?

Not only does that give me the answer of are they critically thinking about their own growth, but it really helps us so that as we're setting that person up for success, if everything does work out, they join a company.

We already know how we can start creating more opportunities for their own development as a.

Most are having to figure that out with the first three, four or five months, but I think the inverse is also equally true. Tell me about the professional skill set that you're really excited to contribute to your next company. So what do they think that they're really good at?

How can we leverage that at our company as well, as opposed to learning about that four or five, six month into their employment as well?

OK, cool. So these are very specific tactics during the interview process. How do you embed the reference check into that? Sometimes people recommend to do a sort of pre reference check where you ask the candidate, what will the manager tell about them at the end of the process doing the reference. I'm curious to know, how do you conduct your reference checks? Great question.

I also think that that is a great interview question itself. Like, you know, let's say that let's say we talk to your current manager, whether we do or not. But let's say we talk to you or your current manager, what would they say? Right. And so clearly, this is a hypothetical question. However, it does get at something very different. Right. I think when you ask a candidate to reflect on themselves through the lens of somebody else.

We generally get more objective answers. Right, because it forces them to be more objective around the conversations they've had with their manager, their own performance, so on. I think that is a great question. I do take it with a grain of salt because it is hypothetical. But I have done references in a number of ways. At Yelp. It was still evaluative, meaning that the references were still very much a part of the evaluation process. And then towards the end of my time ever, and then also at ritual references are really about setting somebody up for success.

So it's really about how can we work best with this person? Any advice for setting this person up for success, knowing what you know about this person, anything that you do differently about setting them up for success?

Because I believe that it is our job as interviewers to have successfully evaluated that person throughout the process. There are occasionally times where we either have a flag or we just didn't get enough of a signal. And I will still fold that into references. But I approach references more through the lens of getting advice to set somebody up for success as opposed to continuing to evaluate.

OK, really depends on the company as well. I would say that most companies, the reference check is both the most important part of the process because as you say, the best experience is probably the better, the better way to assess someone. But at the same time, people tend to confirm the previous impression and reference check are probably ninety nine percent a success. Would you agree with that? And I'd be curious to know what your current stats in your hiring process look like.

Obviously depends on the role. But can you give us a broad idea of the different stats that you see in your hiring process, starting maybe with the end, the reference check and even after that maybe the offer when it's accepted or not?

Yeah, great question. So going back to your question about references, I think that the reason we focus more on setting people up for success is that references are hand-picked. Right. References are different from backchannel. Right. So if I am if I am a candidate, I am absolutely going to put my best foot forward and hand-pick the managers that I know think super highly of you. Right. But that one manager, maybe she I didn't get along or she didn't think I was super successful in my role.

I will definitely not include that person. I will do everything I can to avoid including that person.

And so from my perspective, using references as a way to continue to dig is generally not super successful because that candidate is probably coaching that references behind the scenes we like.

Ambiguity is super important in this role. Can you please lean into that as opposed to getting more of the objective lens? Some people managers are great about that and they'll give the really great things about this candidate, but also the things that maybe that they were still working on.

But because it is a curated list by the candidate, it can be tough to get the full skinny, which is one of the reasons why we approach references the way that we do so currently at retail, our metrics are a little messy.

We have changed some processes recently. But what I can do is share much more information about Leever because we we built these conversions over time, so we'll probably be much more effective.

So by the time that I've left over our offer acceptance rate, it definitely change depending on the composition of the roles for which we are hiring.

But it varied between seventy five to one quarter. We did have one hundred percent offer acceptance rate, but generally it was between seventy five and eighty five percent. It was not always that way. When I first started at level, I think it was closer to about a 50 percent offer acceptance rate and it took a lot of hard work to get there. And then before that we did have a final on site. So generally we had two different on sites.

That conversion when I first started was also not great. We only had about 50 to 60 percent of the candidates passing that final interview. By the time I left, it was closer to seventy five percent, the biggest area that they're at, which I think makes sense for for recruiting. As you think about your funnel, is that first interview, I hesitate to call it a screen screen TV.

I means that we're looking for reasons not to hire you as opposed for looking for reasons to include you in our in our in our process.

So I talk about it like the first recruiter conversation, the first recruiter interview that is generally about a 50 percent drop off. Right. Because we're just going off of paper.

We're going off of what somebody has written about their background if. I've answered any supplemental questions as a part of their the process, and so one out of two candidates we might move forward with and then beyond that, if there is a technical or skills evaluation, depending on the role, sometimes there's another 50 percent drop off.

When we're very calibrated, it's closer to 60 percent. And then that first on site is anywhere between 50 to 70 percent, depending on the role as well.

But as you go throughout your funnel, it should be going up into the right right once, especially once you're calibrated. So you should have less drop off the further you progress in your pipeline.

So you're having 30 percent drop of the 50 percent conversion at the first recorded interview.

Right. About about 50 or 60 percent. OK, then, technical skills evaluation, another 50 percent. First inside 60 to 70 percent. Final side. Seventy five percent then offer acceptance at seventy five percent. Eighty five percent. Well, that's huge.

Is is that in the Bay Area?

Quick question. So we focus most of our hiring in the Bay Area for the first three years and then we did open up a second office in Toronto. And again, this is for four letter and the Toronto office. It was phenomenal.

The Toronto market is just very different from San Francisco.

And so the last quarter I was there, it was about half and half hiring for SF and Toronto as well. But one of the reasons our offer acceptance rate was so high is because we focused a ton on candidate experience and this rang true even before I joined Lepre. The team had done a lot of incredible work before I joined, but really focusing on providing an exceptional candidate experience from the very first communication they receive from the company all the way through post offer acceptance and celebrating that candidate's entry into the company as well.

And so I think that people felt very connected to the company, connected to the vision, but also they knew the company that they were joining because we focused so much on their impact that they'd have and also making sure that they knew the entire company was really excited about them joining.

OK, and for everybody was listening to us and was looking at their own stats and seeing twenty, thirty percent conversion rate of our acceptance rate. What would you say was the offer acceptance rate on tech take place in the Bay Area? That's probably the lowest you'll see, right? Yeah.

Good question for software engineering. Let's just call it software engineering for the sake of it.

In the bay, it is super common to see anywhere between like 30, 40, 50 percent. And I think that's because, like, is such a competitive market even now amid covid and everything that's happening in the world. But I think that there are still a lot of things that you can do to to impact that offer acceptance rate. And again, like it took us a while to increase that offer acceptance rate.

And do you have specific advice that you would give to improve that acceptance rate? Yeah, absolutely. Like very specific things that you can do and just boom. It's absolutely. Yep.

So one thing that I brought over to retool as well that we did at Lover, we built everybody that came on site and obviously now it is a remote on site, but we gave everybody an onsite guide. And so what that means is that everybody would have a concrete schedule.

So not just like the Huckle invite that you send the candidate, but more so letting the candidate know.

Here's the person that you're speaking with, providing a LinkedIn profile. We also do a few facts about the interviewer that they provide. It's really just meant to be an icebreaker and humanize your interviewers and also just kind of a jumping off point for any chit chat that you want to do in the beginning or end of the conversation. And then we'll also include what that interview will cover. It does not include all of the questions.

Right. But it does mention like and we'll focus on setting you up for success and environments in which you've been successful. Right. That way, that person has a sense of what they're stepping into. Also, it can help candidates understand, oh, is this a technical interview? Do I need to make sure that my machine is set up or non technical interview? And then it also includes a handful of facts and other helpful information about the company itself.

So including stats like funding company size, stage, notable customers, things like that. Once you build a really great template right now, it takes me fewer than five minutes to build a brand new one. And then I send one to each candidate that has a remote on site with us that has really helped candidates feel connected throughout their process. So that's one thing. And then to really adopting a selling and a selling mindset throughout the process. So every single touch point should be reconnecting to that candidate's motivation.

So whether that's impact, whether that's growing the business, whether that's the size and scope of the role, whatever those things are that you should have covered in that first call with that candidate, making sure that you are tying that back so you and the candidate on the same page about what's continuing to motivate them.

And then finally, the offer extension process, I think is really important.

I know a lot of companies that really just do a really quick phone call and then they'll send over an offer letter and that's it.

And because I think the talent market is so competitive, you really do have to go that extra mile. And so checking in with your candidate involved in hiring managers, if you're at a size and stage of company where you can leverage leadership, especially your CEO, if that's an option for you, that can be really impactful as well. And then. Finally, any sort of supplemental documentation that you can send in advance is really helpful. So that's one pagers on benefits, perks, valuation.

That way that candidate has all of the information she or he needs in order to make an informed decision. But making sure that as a recruiter, once you get to that offer stage, you are asking, is there. Sure. Right. So you're helping them navigate this process as opposed to just doing the paperwork.

OK, nice. That's very actionable. It's good. What I like is that you're giving very technical advice and things to do, things to avoid. So that's good. What if we move to some kind of more quick questions where I ask a question and you reply and you try to use this very back information? Sure. So what's my first question would be, what's the best advice you've ever been given when it comes to hiring?

Don't marry your process.

OK, and what's the advice that you would give to your 10 years younger self?

Oh, that is such a good question. Let me give you a thoughtful answer.

Speak up earlier and do more.

And do more. Yes. What is done sending more emails?

Not not more emails. But I think knowing that, you know, as recruiters like we're helping people change their lives, I thoroughly believe that. And so I think that my 10 years younger self, knowing that I was an important part of somebody's life, about to change. I mean, that's the most humble of ways. But it's OK to advocate for your candidate as long as you're also advocating for the business. It is it is OK to push your candidate as long as it is fundamentally the right thing that you think is right for the candidate.

So in that sense, I need to do more.

OK, OK. What's the this one is tricky. What's the path you hate the most about hiring?

Yeah, I think that the thing that I hate the most about hiring is the thing that is also really wonderful about hiring is that at the end of the process, a human is making a decision. So you could still do everything within your power to get a candidate to say yes.

But they are the ones that is ultimately making the decision and we have to respect that. And so even if you've had a beautiful process, it's been high touch. It's the right role. It's the right time. It still comes down to their decision. And so some of it is just being aware of that, which can be really hard, especially when you feel like you have the perfect candidate for the perfect role.

And I say no. Yeah, I completely agree with that. So we are building a in the in the recruiting industry. So we are trying to automate stuff to run and all of this. And in the end, that's a human decision. And there's some part of the human brain that you can just focused on. I understand that's just part of it. Exactly. Exactly. So another question. Do you have a secret sauce?

Oh, my secret sauce. I think my secret sauce is meeting the candidate where they're at. So I am I am somewhat of a bubbly person, in case you can't tell.

And not everybody is that way. And I think that's OK.

And so I think recruiters sometimes need to be chameleon's. However, you must remain true to who you are, right. Because otherwise it's just going to come across as disingenuous.

But if I'm talking to a candidate that's a little bit more reserved, I really do try to adjust my communication style, but not the content so that they feel like they're seeing a little bit more and that I'm also not spooking them unnecessarily, but really trying to meet candidates in the middle.

OK, so empathy.

Yeah, I think that's a very polite way of saying, OK, and how do you convince a players to to join your team? Yeah, good question.

This one I don't think is super different from other ways that I can convince other people, but really bringing it back to impact and those motivations and what I have found with a players, whether that's a Yelp or lover at retail, it comes back to the impact they uniquely are going to have at the company.

And so once we get to offer Sage, I think sometimes recruiters will make the mistake of indexing too much on the conversations around compensation or career growth or perks or benefits.

And don't get me wrong, like all of those things are important, but so much of what motivates people to join companies is around the impact that they're going to make. And so really talking about what their expected impact is going to be and why they uniquely are qualified to do that really important work and making sure that you're not losing sight of that conversation while also still providing a plethora of information around these other topics I think is really, really impactful.

OK, and that will be my last question for today. What's your current recruiting stuck with all the tools you're using, the one you tried, the one you'd recommend?

Oh, good question. So let's see. We use just like everybody else. So we definitely use LinkedIn recruiter. We're very fortunate to have a couple of seats on the team. We also use and I'm a new user to this. I'm very much enjoying it. I text expander. My team has got me on board. If you're not familiar with Texas A&M, it's a shorthand way of having short Texas. It's to bring them into some of your text.

And we also use let's see, we also use jam and then we use lover as our applicant tracking system. And we also use a lever for building our nurture campaigns as well. I think I think that answers your question. Is that right, Robin? Absolutely.

OK, what do you to there as well? We use. So Texas, Ben, is expensive, right? It's about twenty dollars per user or something like that per month. Right. We use an alternative that's called the gergis. There are chrome extension as well. Pretty useful. Shochiku.

I love it. I love a good chrome extension cord. Thanks for the tip.

We'll share your thoughts on the other tools. Thanks a lot, Amanda. It's been 30 minutes. Really appreciate. The talk was great. Very actionable. You promised you give very technical examples and advice, and that's exactly it. So I think it was packed with advice and people will. Thank you so much. So do you want to say something or do you want to? Is there anything else you'd like to add? Thank you.

Sorry to interrupt you. Thank you so much for having me, Robin. This was really, really fantastic.

I think the only thing I'd mention in addition is because of our the state of the world right now and world working from home. We're all working in a distributed way for the most part. Now is a really, really great time to think about candidate experience because people aren't going to the office, because people aren't meeting face to face.

So if they're if you have that extra 10 percent time, which I know sounds ludicrous right now, but if you have that extra little bit that extra little bit of bandwidth, I really believe it pays it back in spades if you focus on that candidate experience so it can showcase what your company culture is like, what the office looks like, even though nobody's there.

And then I do use another tool that I do use is called Image Play, IMG Play. It's in the App Store. You can use it to convert videos to GIFs, which is what I use to make a very short video of what the office actually looks like for candidates. It happens in the office, but it's one of the other small ways that we try to think about candidates anyway. Fields are focused on canet experience, especially right now. It would really help differentiate you among all the other companies that your candidates are speaking to.

Cool. Thanks a lot, Amanda. Thanks for the advice. Thanks for listing that podcast. Till the end. If you're still with us, it's probably that you enjoy the players. Eight players is brought to you by myself and higher suites.

Well, building a sourcing automation software and we already have nine other tech companies hire the best talent to know more about us, go to W-W the hire suites dot com or you can add me on LinkedIn.

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