Wndri Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join WNDRI Plus in the WNDRI app or on Apple podcast, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcast. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Anonymous. I'm Dan Sheppard, and I'm joined by Lily Padman.

Hi.

Fuck me, guys. You got to listen. You're so lucky.

You got to listen to this one.

This is dynamite. This is the most I've retold.

Really ever?

I've walked everyone I've seen since this episode through this episode.

Yeah, there's a few.

Oh my God, the last couple.

Really, all of them are incredible, but there's one that seems impossible, and it's not. Yes.

Twelve people, maybe. This has happened, too. Yes, this is an incredible, over-delivered episode. Please enjoy crazy DNA testing stories. I'm Fouhash. I'm Peter Frankerpern. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, Ginges Khan, best known for his brutal campaigns. He was accused of causing millions of deaths, but he also gave his followers religious freedom and education. So is there more to his story than Violence and Bloodshed?

I suspect that there might be, Peter.

And since Violence and Bloodshed is basically all I ever learned about Ginges Khan growing up, I'm actually really curious to find out what lies behind the legend. I can promise you are in for a treat because the Mongols were capable of exceptional acts of brutality.

But all the stuff in the positive column either is never talked about or gets brushed to one side.

So I'm really grateful to have the chance to speak up for Mongal history. Follow Legacy Now wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad free on WNDYRY Plus. I'm Raza Djafri, and in the latest season of The Spy Who, we open the file on Vitołd Pilecki, the spy who infiltrated Auschwitz. Resistance fighter Vitołd Pilecki has heard dark rumors about an internment camp on his home soil of Poland. Hoping to expose its cruelty to the world, he leaves his family behind and deliberately gets himself imprisoned. The camp is called Auschwitz, a headish place where the unimaginable becomes routine. Poletski is determined he needs to organize the prisoners, build a resistance, and get the truth out. Except when the world hears about the horrors of the camp, nobody comes to the rescue. In the end, it's just him alone, with only one decision to make, accept death or escape. Follow the Spy Who on the WNDY app or wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can binge the full season of The Spy Who Infiltrated Auschwitz early and ad-free with WNDYRI Plus. Hard times, come and go. Good times, take them slow.

My life, I had them both.

Hi. Hi. Hello, April. Are you in a hotel room?

I am actually I'm at a place called Deloitte University. I'm in learning and development, and I'm actually here all week delivering five different learning programs.

Which one do we need to know the most?

I just wrapped up one called Future Forward. It was so fun. Lots of very interesting activities, lots of conversation about what the future of our workplace looks like and how to be agile and adaptable. All the buzzwords.

Deloitte, the big accounting firm?

That's right. We have our own hotel/university.

Wow, that's incredible.

When you're there for the week teaching, they give you a hotel room?

They give us a hotel room.

Is there room service?

There is not room service. But I will say they feed us well. There are break stations on every floor. There's a huge market, a place called the Barn.

Oh, that sounds nice.

They've won me back.

Do the hotel rooms have tissue boxes?

There is in the bathroom. I should have thought ahead and brought it over close to me.

Old me would have needed that, not new me. Not doing Because I don't blow my nose anymore, and I don't cough anymore, no matter how bad I want to.

I noticed today you wanted to clear and you didn't.

Yeah, I don't think I have yet since I've sat down. It was great.

Much less editing for you, Marga.

Exactly. He's taken one.

Yeah, but we're going to lose something from it, probably. I bet the guest feels more comfortable that I'm so gross and disgusting. Like, oh, cool. It's laid back. This guy's a gross monster.

I think we're still given off laid back vibes.

Lared back vibes. I'm tank top, I suppose. Okay, so you We have a 23 and me and/or/DNA story. April, let us have it.

Okay, so I am one of four girls, so three sisters. I know my poor dad.

Your lucky dad.

Yeah, he's going to live six years longer because of that.

That's My girl dads are the best, and he really is the best. So I'm the second in line. And what first caught my attention as a child is that all of my sisters have blonde hair and blue eyes or green eyes. My dad has this bright blonde hair and these really bright blue eyes. My mom, red hair, green eyes. Okay. I came out dark, dark head of hair, really dark eyes. Second born, we can chalk that up to like, okay, there's some jeans in there that are going further back. It could happen.

Although if we are led to believe what we learned about Mendelian- Punnant Squares. Yes. The two greens and the blue should have all been recessive, and we shouldn't have been able to have brown eyes with that mix.

But that could be big R, little R, big R, little R making two little R's. So then there could technically be a combination that- But since brown is dominant, you have to have two little bees to get blue.

So the mom had two little bees and the dad had two little bees. No one had a big bee to give. Again, they might have oversimplified it for us.

I thought about all this growing up. There's also the fact that my sisters are all very rambunctuous. They love to dance, very social. I was like the antisocial child. Monica, I love to read Harry Potter off in my corner. Very introverted. So it just felt very different. And then tack on to that, throughout our childhood, we would go out to eat at restaurants or even in school, people would ask us how we were related. We had the same last name, obviously, they knew we were. When we said sisters, everybody often asked, Are we full-blood sisters? This is mid-late '90s, early 2000s. So that got me questioning, I do feel different. What's going on here? So I did ask my parents a couple of times, Is there something I need to know? Was always told no. I asked my grandparents. I was always told there was nothing more I needed to know. But I never let this go as a topic. So the running joke in my family to me was that I was the milkman's baby. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Good. You guys have heard the phrase. So fast forward, I've asked this question to my mom, even into my adulthood.

Yeah, because you're like, I'm an adult now. I can handle it if you had a fling.

Right. And there's something fun about the mystery of it all. But same answer every time. I have two children. Shout out to Brody and Brin, their little armcherries in the making. Oh, we love that. I'm looking at both of them and I'm like, They really look like me and my husband, and they really look like each other. Biologically speaking, now I can look at my dad and my mom and say, Something's not adding up here. So I decide at 30, I'm going to take a DNA test. I don't tell anyone. I get the DNA test, I take it, it comes back several weeks later. And there's nothing earth-shattering. I get some third, fourth cousins, but there is one person who comes up. He's a first cousin, and I don't recognize the name. So I messaged the guy, and he responds back a couple of days later, and he tells me that he's actually adopted.

Oh, so that's confusing.

Not a lot to go on.

Yeah, because I was going to say your results independent of any other information are useless. You need your three sisters to take it, or your mom or your dad. The only thing you could have done is figure it out through this cousin.

This is where in the TV show, you take the hair out of the hairbrush and you put it in your pocket.

Sure.

I was trying to crack this nut without anyone knowing, just so I could have the results myself, but not make open any big secrets of the family. I was trying to be very demure, very mindful. My two younger sisters look just like my dad. Older one looks like my mom. So I talked to my younger sister, and she said she's going to take the same DNA test. A few weeks go by, and we both get the email, and we say, Okay, we're going to call each other before we open it. When we opened it. We are half sister's, niece or aunt.

What would be more confusing, you are a little sister's aunt. I got to try to figure out that on the family tree.

What's the feeling when you open it and you see it?

I felt like this is my lifelong mystery solved. I knew that something was up the whole time, and I was right. My family is still my family. My mom and dad divorced, by the way, when I was 18, so they're not together anymore. I think maybe she doesn't know who my dad is, or maybe she's just not 100% sure, and that's why she never wanted to tell me. There's some secret she doesn't want to confess to. But now I have these results. I know for sure there's nothing more to hide, and I want to know who the person could be. I call her up and I say, Mom, Misty and I took a DNA test, and guess what? We're half sisters. She really took it like a champ. She was very matter of fact. She said, Okay, his name is Jim. He was 10, 12 years older than me. He was going through a divorce. He got two other kids. I mean, it's just bombshell after bombshell. She knew this guy, and they dated for a little bit. But here's the real kicker. She met him because she was working at a pharmacy, and this man drove the Borden's dairy milk truck.

He actually was the milkman. No, no, no, no, no, Tell me that I really am the milkman's baby. Clearly, she was still actively married to your dad because kids came before and after. It was an extramarital experience.

There was a separation. She was only 21 when I was born. Oh, wow.

Yeah, she's horny.

Of course. Very young, very much haven't figured out life yet.

Now, did your dad know?

There's a little bit of some drama here. My mom says that he knew, but when I went and talked to him, because really, I wanted to thank him for knowing that I wasn't his biologically, but still raising me the same as my sister, never treated me any differently. He got really emotional when I had the conversation with him because he said he really didn't know, that she had alluded to it once, but then took it back and never brought it up again.

I got to really work to look through if I found out Delta wasn't biologically my daughter, obviously, I couldn't love her less. Exactly. Nothing there would happen. But would I have any heartbreak that I have nothing to do with that magic?

See, that's your ego. Yeah. I would feel deceived, not by the kid, but by the partner.

The sexual partner. Yeah. I just adore her so much. I don't think I'd really give a shit.

I don't think your feelings towards her would change at all.

Correct. I almost think I would be grateful that Kristin had chosen what she did because I feel this way about her, and I love it so much. I think I would agree with the decision. But we're not divorced, and your folks were divorced when you told them this?

They were not together when I told them. I'll tell you, my grandparents are actually who had the hardest time with it because I'm so close to them. Of course, this is my grandpa on my dad who raised me side. He will still find old pictures of distant relative family members that he thinks I resemble.

Oh, he He's still living in another reality. That's okay.

I love him.

He's my pop off, and that'll never change.

Did you go find Jim?

I found him. I got to give my younger sister a little surprise. I didn't actually mean to tell her in that way. I just messaged her to ask for her dad's contact info, and I didn't give her a reason why. And she joked back to me and said, Why are you my long-lost sister?

Oh, my God. The clichés are coming through. Lots of jokes that kept coming true.

Yeah. Yeah. Careful That's what you joke about.

I did get to meet him and hear about his family history. And very pleasant guy, but my life worked out the exact way it was supposed to because he even said he wouldn't have been in a place to be a really great father for me at that time in his life. So it really worked out.

Well, you have a great attitude about all this. You just took it as I was validated. I knew. So it's a victory. I don't feel sad about it.

I appreciate that. Now, I know there's a history of breast cancer in the family. Never knew that before. These are good things to know.

That's true. Thanks for sharing that.

Yeah, that was great, April. Of course.

Thank you guys so much for having me. Would it be okay? Can I take a picture of us?

Of course.

I'm going to look in the camera.

And I'm going to flex. I'm not really, but a little bit.

All right, everybody, stay tuned.

Wonderful.

So nice to meet you.

Good luck with the rest of your week of teaching.

Thank you so much. Bye. Bye.

Oh, wow. What a nice woman. A good person for that to happen to. Great reaction. Because that could really take someone down. I would have a very hard time with that. Luckily, I look like my parents almost exactly.

I know enough to know I don't really know how I'd feel about it, but certainly when I think about it, it wouldn't bother me either.

I wouldn't be mad at anyone, but I would feel untethered. I don't even know who I really am.

Yeah, but you and I both are so identical to our dads, and that's the only one you can find out. What if that wasn't my dad? Then your mother has a type because she obviously fucked a guy that was identical to your dad. And same with my That means she fucked my grandpa or something. Well, I'm just saying I'm such a shepherd.

It's insane. But I just think then that would be very telling for nurture. Obviously, they are my parents. So none of this is helpful. So I'm not going to with it, my It's different. Also, I just read something recently that made me upset. It's a ding, ding, ding to this. Green eyes are the most rare. You didn't know that? I just wanted it then.

My mom has green eyes. I want it. Okay, I'll ask her, I guess.

Can you check with her about how she did that? You could have had them.

I think I'm right about that eye thing.

You're right.

You have to have both recessive. You can only pass on a recessive.

Because they both have little R's.

Yeah, little bees.

I like ours.

I think there are more genes than just one to determine eye color, so I think it was given to us a little simplistically.

I think so, too. But that was so fun making those little squares.

Hi, can you hear us?

I can hear you.

Can you hear me? Beautifully. What name are we going to use for you?

I couldn't I can't decide. Honestly, everything felt silly, so whatever you guys want.

Okay, you ready for a wild one? Yeah.

Brooklyn. I get it.

Doesn't she look like a Brooklyn? I like it. You have a candy. You've set the scene. It looks like a spa. Are you just out of a treatment? Are you just out of a Swedish or a deep dish? I really wish. Are you allowed to tell us what part of the country you're in, Brooklyn, even though we're using a fake name?

I am in New Jersey.

Almost Brooklyn.

Which is super weird because I kept getting Cedar Point ads today. I don't know if it has anything to do with you, but I live nowhere near there.

It definitely has to do with- You're probably six hours away, worth the drive, in my opinion. Oh, my God. Do not do that. Just go to your nearest Six Flags. There's one close to.

Someone wrote in the comments, they didn't acquire Cedar Point. They merged, and the current CEO is the CEO of Cedar Point.

It's Six Flags over Cedar Point.

Everyone, shut your mouth. Okay, sorry, Brooklyn. Okay, so you're in New Jersey and you have a It's a DNA story because you don't want to use your real name.

Yes. Just to set the scene, my parents met when they were 13. They had me when they were 21, my sister when they were 24. So they were always the cool young parents. And everyone was always like, Oh, my God, your parents are still together. They're so young. So fast forward, 2019, my dad was diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis.

What on earth is that?

It is an autoimmune disease that essentially fuses your spine together. So it's super painful. Oh, my goodness. It's not anything that's curable. So at that time, he was going to a lot of doctor's appointments. The day after Christmas in 2019, we knew he had a doctor's appointment. I'm home, I'm cleaning up after Christmas, and dad calls. And he says, I need you to come to the house right now. I was like, Okay, is everything okay? I don't want to talk about it. Just come over. I immediately call my sister. I said, Did dad call you? And she said, Yeah, what the hell is going on? I said, I don't know. I'm on my way. In my head, dad's dying of cancer.

Sure.

Yeah.

This is awful. He was supposed to be at the doctor. I am near tears. This is that talk. So I get to the house. They're not crying, but my mom, you could tell she has been crying. So we sit down and say, What is going on with you guys? And my dad said, Me and your mom were out today. We were on the way to the doctor, and your brother reached out to us on Facebook.

Excuse me?

So he starts telling us this story. When they were 15, my mom got pregnant. She just hoped it would go away, and it didn't.

They tend not to.

That's the problem with those. They're permanent.

Hard to get half pregnant.

I'm Jon Robbins, and on my podcast, I sit down with incredible people to ask the very simple question, How do you cope?

From confronting grief and mental health struggles to finding strength in failure. Every episode is a raw and honest exploration of what it means to be human. It's not always easy, but it's always real. Whether you're looking for inspiration, comfort, or just a reminder that you're not alone in life's messier moments. Join me on How Do You Cope. Follow now to listen to the full trailer or listen to early episodes at free on WNDRI Plus. What's up, everybody? It's Jason, Kelsey, and I'm here with my slightly famous little brother Travis, AKA Big Yeti, Kelsey. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we're here to bring you a next-level entertainment experience with our show, New Heights, where the lumb baby reigns supreme. We're covering all the hardest-sitting topics in order of importance, UFO sightings, the ideal PB&J combo, and Trab, becoming a big-time acting star. Big-time is a big stretch. We've got can't miss A-list interviews, though. That's right. And of course, next-level I got access to life inside the NFL and in the booth. Just because I retire doesn't mean I'm out of the game. Yeah, I mean, the old dad's shoes suggested otherwise, but those are the I'm out the game shoes right there.

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She has my brother. They essentially take him away. She doesn't get to see him, doesn't get to hold him, does not know where he's going. This is my full biological brother from both of my parents.

Oh, my God.

Wow, when he's older than you.

This is crazy. Yeah, so he's six years older than me. My parents are looking at us like, We are so sorry. I know we should have told you, but we never thought we'd ever see him again. But we knew they did 23 in May. But we just thought it was for fun, not knowing they were looking for my brother. But the funniest part about it is I wasn't upset because I was just so glad my dad wasn't dying. Sure. I can think about was like, Oh, my God, it's just a brother. That's really not that big of a deal, guys.

It's a bonus. But I can definitely imagine for your parents, as I would get older and have kids and have this experience with my kids, it would retroactively make me go like, Oh, my goodness, our child's out there. We must see that child.

Also, if this really was you, let's say it's you. It's me. Can you imagine the guilt because your life is really good in your children's lives are really good and to think, Well, what happened to that kid? And what if they didn't end up in as good of a situation? That's a lot.

I'm not shocked they were looking.

I think for them to hold on to that so much. If somebody asks, Oh, is this your oldest? And in your head, you're like, Yeah. I was 28 when we found out, so that was a really long time for them to hold on to that. So we end up meeting my brother. It was right before COVID happens. We found out that he was married to his high school's sweetheart and had an eight-year-old son.

Just like mom and dad. Yeah.

But so the weirdest part of it all is how often our paths really crossed throughout all of our lives. He was adopted by a family that's 15 minutes down the road from where I grew His adopted mother was a beauty queen, and his father was the mayor of this New Jersey town that I lived in.

Oh, my God.

They had two biological daughters before him and then adopted him. Him and I commuted to Manhattan on the same trains all the time. We have the same stories of being stranded because of train delays in the same places at the same time. My mom's cousins knew his sisters in high school.

Listen, you're You're lucky you never dated them. That's really- Exactly. This is the most important part.

That's why this stuff gets tricky.

Because you would meet them and you would feel this crazy familial thing that you would not chalk up to that, and it would be very confusing.

Exactly. My brother's a good-looking, successful guy.

Is he single? No, still not. Oh, yeah. I forgot his high school's. We've got our damn it.

I'd get her out of the picture.

His brother-in-law live a couple houses down from me in the same town.

Oh, my God. This is bizarre. But your parents didn't know that?

No, they didn't know any of that. And that's what's so strange. But there's pictures of my brother in the newspaper with his dad. My parents have probably looked at those pictures not really knowing it was him.

Well, it's really great news that he ended up with a wonderful family. Yes.

Totally. Then for him to reach out to us and see my parents are still together. I mean, he got two more sisters.

Yeah, he's I'm good on the sisters. Is there a cool brother I can hang with? So have you guys become close?

He was in my wedding. We've all gotten super close. We've gone on vacations with his in-laws.

Oh, this is lovely.

You can see my mom feels complete.

Yeah. I bet. Do they have a sweet relationship?

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. My mom is constantly stealing her grandson to babysit. She annoys them all the time the same way she annoys me.

Do his adopted parents feel at all threatened by any of this, or they're totally cool with it?

They were totally cool with it. His adoptive mom lives in Florida now, so she's not local anymore, and his dad did pass away. But his sisters have reached out to me. They messaged me on Instagram, and they could not be any sweeter. It was really a wild, cool thing.

Big win. This is I'm really glad you didn't date.

Just really keep going back to this. Just circle back to that.

Considering he's a full brother, too, it would be really bad. Yeah, that'd be real, real bad.

Maybe do 23 and me before dating anybody.

Yeah, let's do it in your team years.

I'm scared to find stuff out on there, though. It's hard to find a partner. If I really fell in love with someone, I would not want to find out they were my full brother. It's better to not know that. I just don't want I know.

That's right. Just have a child that's a cyclops and then ask yourself, Why did that happen? It was worth it. Well, Brooklyn, that was an uplifting story. Yeah, I liked that a lot. Life affirming.

Well, and thank you guys for everything you do. You guys are not just my favorite podcast You're actually the only podcast that I will listen to.

Good. Don't stray. We don't know how we'll hold up to competition. All the others are either too light, too dark.

You guys really just fit right in the middle.

Thank you. We aim to. Thanks for listening. Delightful meeting you, for real.

All right. Thank you guys so much. All right.

Take care.

These are surprisingly happy stories. I know.

I'm relieved.

Me too. But I want some bad ones.

How could they even go bad? They're always going to probably be this, right?

Well, it could have gone incest.

I can only hope. We got a twofer coming up next.

What's that mean?

Oh, two people. Wow, this is a first.

Oh, this is exciting. I'm nervous. I'm butterfly. I was going to say something.

I'm bored. Dating your brother. What if you found out you weren't related to your brother and then started dating him? Oh, you're like, Oh, my God, this is the best news.

I've always been so attracted to you and I haven't been able to figure it out.

That would be a story, is that siblings found out they weren't siblings and promptly started dating.

But really, we know that's not going to happen because the pharomone exchange.

Yes, he mapped each other's stank.

Smells and stuff. Hello.

Hi. Hi. Is this big A, little A, R-O-N? It is. Erin, you'll be our first dual collar. Is there a Jessica also joining us?

She'll be here momentarily.

Okay, exciting.

Now, this cool painting behind you, there's a butterfly, an airplane, and it looks to be flying over like Mexico City or What's happening in this photo?

Jess put that together. It's a collage. She'll have to tell you the story of that.

Okay. A lot is riding on Jess's appearance.

She's the more charismatic of the two of us.

Well, don't sell yourself short, Aaron. Don't do that. Where are you guys at?

We're on Vashon Island, Washington State.

Okay, Jessica has joined us. Jessica, the Painting Collage, what city are that butterfly and that airplane above?

Oh, he's facing the wrong Wait, okay.

Absolutely nothing.

That is actually a painting I did in college over a very ugly palm tree from one of those mall furniture, decorating stores that you go to in grad school and you're like, This is four feet. By two, it's going to pick up the whole room and it's going to cost $39. Okay. So I just dragged that thing around for years.

What is the relationship here between you and Aaron?

Well, we're going to tell you that- Oh, this is going to come up.

Okay. We're excited. Let's jump in.

We need to know.

Technical matter, Jess, did you start recording?

I'm doing it as we speak.

This is such a couple already, though, because she's like, you're facing the wrong way, and then he's in charge of tack.

If I have it facing the window, it's usually just like a bright white nothing. All right, so I've been selected to start the story. It's 1984. I'm 28, and let's say I'm between things. I've recently returned from a year of teaching English and the Canary Islands. Instead of staying in paradise for some dumb reason, I come back to the US and then don't know what to do with myself. So I move into my mom's basement and start driving a taxi. I also start dating a German woman, Kirstin, and it gets serious, but then she goes back to Germany for work. We decide, however, to keep dating and have a long distance relationship. Then one day in the local newspaper, I see an employment ad seeking sperm donors to help infertile couples Okay. It turns out that infertile couples means lesbian couples about 95% of the time, but I only learned that much, much later. Since Kirsten and I are being monogamous, this jerk off job, as it were, seems both like easy money and a good outlet for my sperm. I get hired and I wind up donating. They pay me, so I don't know why they refer to it that way, but I wind up donating about twice a week for a year.

Oh, so 104 trips.

Probably a little less than that.

I tried to do this at UCLA because they were paying good money for UCLA sperm, and I went in and did a deposit, and then they said, your sperm count isn't high enough. Too low. So you're more viral. So can I ask Sam? You're more manly than I was.

My condolences.

Were they looking for a cab driver living in mom's basement?

Despite that career profile, I went to Johns Hopkins, so maybe that helped.

That definitely helps.

Okay, so at this end of this year of donating sperm, I moved to Germany to be with Kirsten. That relationship doesn't last too long, but in any case, I go on with my life, and I don't give the sperm donation much thought. I'd signed a mutual confidentiality agreement with a sperm bank, and DNA testing doesn't exist yet. So I just assumed I'd never learn anything about any children born. I don't ever get involved in a serious relationship and have children the standard way. So fast forward 30 years to 2016, and I begin to see ads for '23 and me. I immediately understand that if I get a DNA test, I might be able to find my progeny, and I'm intrigued, but I procrastinate signing up for about a year. But finally, I order the test, spit in the test tube and mail it off, having no idea what the odds of finding any of the children are. A few weeks later, I get the results back.

Hold on one second. I do want to ask, when you spit in the test tube, what would have been your guess of how many kids' results resulted from these 100 plus or minus trips?

I did do a back of the napkin calculation based on odds of conception. It seemed like 60 to 70 children might be possible.

Wow, wow, wow. Yeah, this is wild already.

Okay. So I get the results back and find exactly one child, a son named Bryce, age 20, who lives in New York. I was in Pennsylvania at the time. I see this result and I'm like, Yikes, what do I do now? I spend about a week thinking about what to write to him, and he's also on 23 and me. So I wonder if he's noticed me or been notified about my existence, and I wonder if I'm failing some unwritten DNA test results getting etiquette. I write to Bryce and let him know that I'm interested in connecting. I tell him a little bit about myself. He writes back to me in about five minutes flat, and he writes back with an email that starts, Dad, exclamation point, which is really alarming because I'm wondering, what expectations does this guy have of me? But it turns out he's just joking around and having fun.

Oh, okay. He's got your sense of humor. He's very smart and funny.

We make a positive connection, and pretty soon, he connects me with another of my kids, Maddie, who's also about 20, a daughter who he found through a different service. In fact, he's found in total five other children. So I immediately go from one to six. Except for Bryce and Maddie, all the other ones are younger. They don't really come into this story. Bryce and Maddie and I wind up corresponding with each other. We have a Facebook chat going. We get to know each other a bit. We exchange life stories and pictures. Our resemblance to each other is pretty striking. There was no doubt that the results were accurate. But they're young college students in their 20s. They have other things going on in their lives. So after not too long, things go dormant, and we occasionally like each other's Facebook posts. A few months pass, and then in early 2017, I get a confusing message through 23andMe from a daughter named Alice, aged 11. But really, it's her mother, Jessica, that's writing. And it seems like a good place to bring Jess in to tell her side of the backstory.

Okay. Yeah, that's me.

Bunk.

Bunk.

Bunk. Michael, what are you doing? I'm saying Bunk, Vinnie. What's a Bunk? I'm glad you asked, Vinnie. Bunk is a super easy-to-use free digital bank that pays 2. 67% interest on your savings. Paid weekly, fully on demand and can be set up in just five minutes. It's fun to say, Bunk. Bunk. I see. What did my bank pay? Next to nothing. On Bunk. 2. 67%, Vinnie. Paid weekly. Paid weekly. Okay, Bunk. Bunk. Hey, it is fun to say. Bunk Ireland is regulated by the Dutch Central Bank and by the Central Bank of Ireland for Rules of Business Conduct.

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At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather, it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately, you triumph in finding it again. So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names, about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph.

My hope is that people will finish an episode of reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up.

They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the WNDRI app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining WNDYRI Plus in the WNDYRI app or on Apple podcasts.

So my backstory is a long, long time ago, I was married to a woman, and we had two daughters using an anonymous sperm donor. I carried the first, and she carried our youngest, and we used a sperm bank randomly. Our gynecologist was I'm registered at this bank. So we picked a donor. We had sperm shipped overnight. It comes in like a giant helium tank on dry ice. You put on gloves and you lift out this little smoking half a chapstick cap of sperm.

Oh, wow. Okay.

We went through that entire process and had our first daughter, Alice. You have your first baby, you're over the moon, you're like, She's obviously perfect. Let's replicate her. We used the same donor again and had our youngest daughter. And by the time Alice was 11, I was divorced, and I was dating a man who, coincidentally, is also named Aaron David, like Aaron here. Oh, wow.

That seems impossible.

When he learned this, I was like, Oh, they just made a mixup at the Bureau of boyfriends. And Alice at the time was really, really sick of hearing her grandma talk about like, Oh, we're from Kent.

We're from Romania. We're from all these places. She knew I never knew my father. She obviously knew she grew up with two moms and an anonymous donor. And she was like, You know what? 75% of me is a mystery.

Why did you not know your dad?

I just never did. It was the '70s. I had a single mom. It was not discussed in the Midwest, and you didn't go looking because you're Midwest I guess.

Yeah, it's a secret.

But Alice is Gen Z and has no such qualms. She just wanted the map of her countries. Being 11, she wasn't at the place that Bryce and Maddie as college students were. She wasn't like, Who am I? Where do I come from? She was like, I know who I am. I'm 11. I'm cool. At the time, I'd never heard a DNA story of people finding adoptive parents. She asked grandma for this present for Christmas. Grandma is more than happy to provide. And six weeks later, we get the results. I clicked the DNA Relatives tab, and it's just Father, 50% Shared DNA. My reaction was the same as Aaron's. You're like, What am I going to do about this now? He's probably getting a notification right now. The clock is ticking. I googled. I did what anyone would do. I had no idea Sperm Banks had branches. So we had ordered from the DC area. So luckily, he went to Johns Hopkins because I found a guy on LinkedIn, right age, the right degrees in the DC area. So I went to Facebook, and he had all of his school pictures, K to 12. And I got chills at that moment.

It was no doubt in my mind, here's my daughter with a 1960s boy bowl haircut. I wrote him that confusing note and just said, hey, I'm the I'm open to talking. Write me back if you want pics.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

He wrote back. He'd already written a bio for Bryce and Maddie, so I read it to Alice, and she wrote her own life story back to him, which was very short. But because she was alive, Then me and Aaron started texting. We just both found it fascinating. We formed this friendship. Six months later that summer, because Bryce and Maddie are college age, we all decide that we're going to meet in Seattle. He threw a huge party on the roof of his place, and we all came. I was cool with that, especially with such a young daughter, that there were two other siblings there. It was not going to be a big deal. But we all decided we were going to spend basically two weeks together. Aaron does this huge hippie fest in Eugene every summer. We all pile in my car and we drive back down there and we go to this hippie fair. Instantly, Aaron and I were the parents in this scenario. We're throwing sandwiches to the back seat. Do you have everything? Got to make sure everybody's happy.

We're both playing parents, and yet we are actually the biological parents of one of the kids.

Eugene was where I was living at the time. He had been in a band in that area. He had commuted every weekend. We could have passed him and the girls in grocery stores. We had some one-step, removed people in common. So weird how close our paths had always been to crossing. During that trip, we took a walk one night just to be alone and talk and have our first date. It was the wildest first date I've ever been on because we went to a cemetery by my house because all the kids are back in the house.

You're on your first date, but you already have a child that's 11 years old.

Yeah. Right.

What happens on this first date is- That's a good icebreaker. Most of it telling him what our daughters are like.

Can I ask quickly how your ex-wife felt about you connecting with Karen?

Ex-wife was not in the picture at that point, but I can tell you for sure she would not have been supportive. I got you. Okay. I'm a little bit more open about that thing. We went on this whole trip together. We played family. So we came back to Seattle with him, and we started dating, and the rest is history. It progressed from there. I met and got together with my daughter's bio dad 12 years after she was born.

Wow. So how long have you guys been together now?

Since 2016. So nine at this point. Alice is in college.

Oh, my God. So you ended up Aaron raising your daughter from 11 on?

Only, Alice should probably be here to speak for herself, but she has never considered me to be her father, her other mom her other parent, even if that parent hasn't been so great to her recently.

I think Alice would double down on that and be like, That is why we cannot let her off the hook, because gay family is family. She was just like, My mom's already out of the picture, and that really hurts. I'm not ready to pull someone else into that and risk that again.

From what you've already told me about her personality, it's on brand.

It's definitely on brand for her, and it felt a lot safer for me. I tried to Google this, and no one else on the internet had been in this situation before. There was no answer to, How do I date my kid's dad? I tried to be a good mom about this, and it felt better because I knew that she wasn't just going to run into his arms and then it was going to end and I was going to be the worst mom on the planet.

Yeah, that makes sense. Wow. What about the younger daughter?

My youngest daughter, what actually happened to estrange my wife and me is she withheld that daughter and abandoned Alice. So Alice hasn't seen her sibling in that amount of time either. Alice is completely adamant that this child is not her sibling just because it's Aaron. It's not like Maddie is now substitute sister or is as much sister. We've come full circle. Love definitely makes a family, but biology also can make some family, too. And both are not the whole enchilada, and both are not nothing either.

Yeah, that's so true.

Well, this might surprise you that the most shocking part of this whole story to me is that they keep the sperm for so long. I would have thought I either had kids in that window of time I was jerking off at the place. I would not think there could be a 20-year span. Still.

I actually found him because one of the vials they sent me had a date on it, January 1994, and I was like, 94? I graduated high school in 94. It's 2004 when I'm trying to get pregnant. I was like, he already had a master's by 94. Okay, here's his age. Let's start googling. I did not expect that that was 10-year-old sperm.

They sold you expired sperm.

I got expired I'm doing this for our man.

Wow, what a story.

What a story.

We are now aware of, I believe, 22 of my children.

Okay. Twenty-two. Wow.

I have a spreadsheet.

I've only met four.

Does it stress you out at all?

No. Whenever I discover one, I write them an email and tell them a little bit about myself and say I'm open to connection. Though, strangely, other than Bryce and Maddie and one other, Emily, who happens to live near us, I guess we had a Zoom meeting with one family of three, but most of them just haven't been that interested.

Yeah. Right. Wow, this is a wild story.

This really is. This is the most interesting meet cute I've ever heard.

Absolutely. After my piece was published in the New York Times, and Jess also had a piece published by the BBC, we did get some movie interest.

I could see that. I think the problem is there's not an obstacle in our story at all.

They would have invent that?

Sure. We're good at that. It's a creative license. That's allowed.

We know how to do that. Well, you guys, this was delightful. What an interesting story. What's the name of the New York Times piece and the BBC piece, in case people want to read it? I think that might interest people.

No idea. But his New York Times, I mean, that's how it got out. He wanted to write A Modern Love with his creative writing degree on it. So there's A Modern Love that's like, Am I in a chromosomally arrayed relationship?

Oh, that's a clever title.

Oh, I like that.

That's not the title, though. It It's the Modern Love column, and the title is First I met my children, then my girlfriend, they're related.

Oh, that's nice. I like that. That's tasty. I like your title, though, a lot, Jessica. I don't know if that was a first draft.

That might be the subtitle on it.

Well, wonderful meeting both of you. Thank you for telling us that story.

And thanks for doing it this way. This was fun to have both of you.

Yeah, you laid it out beautifully.

Thank you so much for having us.

Okay, take care. Bye.

Wow. Meet Cuteler.

I guess that sperm stays good for a fucking goat's age, huh? But it worked out. Yeah, it's great.

Dallas.

Taylor, can you hear us?

Yeah, I'm sick, so I'm sorry. My voice is all...

You're going to have to get healthy before we can talk to you. You're going to have to call us back. I had some cold Cold.

I thought it went away. Now it's back.

Yeah, these colds.

These are the new colds. They're for three months. That's just how the fucking colds are now. Apparently. Okay, so you have a wild DNA story?

I do. I'm a twin. We are the babies of seven. For about six, they're divorced, and my dad moved out with his friend girl. Went to another state and left my mom to raise all of us. And she made it really clear that he had left. When I was about 16, she was completely over me and my shit. She booted me out here to live with him, just He left everybody back where they were. What about the twin?

Yeah, and are you guys identical or fraternal?

It's a boy. So he stayed back. We were freshmen in high school, but I was a pain in the ass. I have a 17-year-old right now, and God bless her. I know.

I'm caught So my brother was really, really challenging. And now that I think of his story and I write about it, I realize he really needed someone that had a lot of capacity to help. I just feel bad for both people in the story. I feel bad for my mom, and I felt bad for my brother. So you probably needed a lot of help.

I am so blessed by my children that I'm like, How did you do it? And she's like, I sent you.

I didn't.

So she sent me here, and I was nice and sassy. And I was like, You know what? Why did you leave? What's your problem? Was she worth it? And he's like, Wasn't the only one. For all I know, you're some Jack guy's baby. I understood that this Jack guy was a colleague of my mom's. I'd heard the name, but I'm like, You're deflecting. You're just trying to take the attention off what you're doing. I was very much not here for eight.

Also, Jack guy sounds like a term, like a certain guy. Because it sounds like jacked guy. Well, that would be great. But I was thinking more like he works at a mechanic shop. Sure. He's jacking up cars or like a Jack jockey.

Different industries, for sure. But yeah, fair enough. He didn't harp on it. He never really had a lot of nasty things to say about my mom. He was always very kind. He's like, She loves you. But he was tired of being the only one taking the blame, and he wanted to get his story out there. But then we didn't talk about it again.

And did he and the friend girl have any children?

No, that happened for about a year. And then after I had my third son, my mom mailed me my baby book. And the baby book had all these cards and crap in it. And then there was a literal Western Union telegram, yellow with the tear on it and everything, that said, Congratulations on the twins. I'm so happy. The Jack.

Oh, my God. Okay. This is curious.

You're curious. I tried digging and I can't find anything, and I just move on. So a couple of years later, me and my twin decided we were both going to try Ancestry and 23 and Me. We wanted to prove that they were full of it. And everyone said, The origins are off. We weren't really doing it for DNA purposes. We were just trying to play with it. And we were right. His came up a little bit Irish, and mine came up a little Scottish, and then the rest of it was just Eastern European. Didn't think anything of it. 2022, I got back in this Jack fix, and I was like, I'm going to figure this out. So I started digging through '23 and me, which had matches that were like, fifth cousin nonsense. So I was bored. So I was like, I'll log in to my brother's ancestry because he would have different matches. And sure as shit, I open up, it says, child match, my brother and Jack.

Hold on a second, though.

Why didn't yours say that? Jack only did ancestry.

Oh, you did different ones?

They divided and conquered.

I don't like to blow up my family over nothing. So I'm like, I'm going to do my own ancestry because I had done 23, so that I can catch my breath.

You told your brother, obviously. He already knew. Not at this point.

We don't live in the same state anymore, so I just let it be. And I didn't know how to process. That's a lot.

This is a fucking mess.

I do my own. Ironically, Father's Day is the day I get mine back. I open it up and there is no Jack to be found. And it says that me and my twin brother are half siblings. Wow. It's called Superficion. I don't know how to say it. No. It's very, very rare. There's 10 cases in all of America.

America. Whoa. Wow. So your mother was carrying two different people's child.

Isn't that wild?

At literally the exact same time. What?

I'm upset. Don't even know how to tell my brother that he's the only one of us seven that's not.

Well, do you know, though, the other fives, have they done Ancestry?

None of them have.

We don't know how much Jack was in or out of the picture.

My dad has got black hair and blue eyes, and my twin is the tallest out of He's like, 6'1, I'm 4'11, and he's blondeer, and so is Jack after doing lots and lots of fun research. So then I decided to go crazy on my ancestry and connect some more dots and just try to make sense of it, and I couldn't. I couldn't connect any more dots. So they had these things called DNA Angels. I don't know if you've ever heard of them, but huge shout out to them. They do it for free. They'll log in to your ancestry, and they'll help you connect some dots from fifth cousins all the way down to maybe who your grandfather's father was. So I call on them and help me. She logs in, and about 10 hours later, she calls me and she's like, I'm really sorry, but you're not your dad's either.

What? A whole plot fucking twit. Stop it. Stop.

She's like, It's one of these three men. They're all brothers. They connect to a grand father that my DNA connected to.

Mom was busy. She sure was.

U-s-y busy. I just started at the top of the three men. He's the oldest, dad of all of them, closest to my mom's age. His name is James. And about two hours into researching, Do I not land on a photo of Jack, James, my mom, all at a conference the year of my birth? There's 10 of them, and those three were in the middle. My mom was in the middle, Jack and James. I continued to find out Jack was the President of this company, and they were the trustees. Now, hold on.

Was it a three?

I asked that question a lot. I've done so much investigating. The only thing I don't know is did they take turn?

Right. The NCS was one night, and then the next night.

If she'd go down to the bar after.

Exactly. Exactly, because it would have to be that fast.

There's a lot of permutations here. I think it was an orgy.

Even if she hyper ovulated, the studies show it has to be within a couple of days.

Okay, so have you discussed any of this with your mom?

No, I haven't confronted her.

You haven't?

I told my twin, which ruined our relationship. No. So he called Jack because I'm sitting on it for months, and then he comes out here for our birthdays, and I'm like, So guess what? And he's like, Mom got Eiffel towered. And I was like, That's not funny.

What's that mean? What does that mean? She knows a I don't know how to code words.

Just think about an Eiffel Tower.

Oh, sure. Like a wobbly H, Sawhorse. I don't get it.

Oh, I do. He calls this guy because I had this guy's phone number. Mind you, both these two men are married 50 years plus, so they were married to these women, and they still are. He calls them and he's like, Hey, guess we parent-child match on Ancestry. Jack's like, Your mom and I agreed we'd never have any contact with you, so bye. Oh my God. So they knew.

Well, he's afraid.

Sure, and I'm not out here to hurt him, but he could have been like, Here's a medical things you might need to know.

Exactly. Minimally, I'm sorry that this happened.

Yeah, here's 5,000 bucks.

Well, Jack had no kids.

Maybe he thought he was sterile.

Well, he knew about us, though. We weren't saying anything.

And he sent a telegram.

But he doesn't probably know that I'm James'. He probably thinks he has me and my brother out there.

He's like, Okay, I don't need to talk to you, but is your sister going to call? Because I need to tell her I don't want to talk to her either.

If your sister calls, it's going to be a longer conversation. He's not my dad, so I can't say anything to him. Then I looked up mine, and he was once upon a time, the Supreme Court Justice of a Southern state. So I decided to leave that alone.

Holy moly.

He's got kids and grandkids, and I'm not ruin anyone's life. It doesn't change who I am.

But are you like, What am I? So, yeah, what impact does this have? Because we've talked to some people today who have had this experience, and some of them are like, it doesn't matter. It's cool to know. And that's still my parent, and I don't really care.

Yeah, I went to a conference on it. They're called NPE, Nonparental Event or Non-Expected Parent. And a lot of people are just crying like, the mailman is my dad, and my mom I've lied my whole life, and it's my identity. And I'm like, No, it's not. You are who you are. Your blood is blood. I grew up with step siblings. My kids have had a stepdad. I don't identify with who was in the room that night. I identify with who I turned out to be and the people that care to stay in my life. I have great relationships with people that are blood and that aren't. I'm bummed, and I can see why my mom always had just this undercover. I'm not so sure about her, get rid of her. She just didn't like me.

I can't imagine, though, that she assumed the twins were from two different men. Even though she had sex with two different people, No way.

That would just not only spoil her. Your dad left and cheated. Not only did he do that, but you doubled down. To tear down a woman in her late '70s, it's just like, what's the point? I told one of my sisters, the other cibs don't know, and she's like, You've got to tell her. I'm like, No, I don't.

The only reason I think to tell her is she is a medical marvel.

History.

Yeah. She's historic. There probably is just 50 cases this has ever happened.

Yeah, I think that they said in just America, there's 12, and then the other countries, there's more. But you don't have a lot of documentation on this. How many twins both do it? You just assume one's DNA is the others.

Wow. This is twisty and turny.

Growing up, though, did you think you and your twin had twin abilities?

Well, they did share a mom.

Right. We shared a room, and we shared a room, and we shared a lot of time together. I always thought we had this special bond.

Are you left-handed? No.

My little boy is, though.

Maybe he'll be President. Sure. Over in What a story. Oh, my God. That's a barn burner.

Thank you so much for sharing it. Yeah, you guys.

It was super fun. I do need to give a shout out to one of my friends, Rebecca. She actually used your story to ask about dyslexia and she gives it to her students at the elementary school she teaches at. She loves, loves, loves you guys. She got me interested in you guys as a podcast.

Thank you, Rebecca.

Yeah, that's lovely.

Shout out. Well, lovely meeting you.

I'll be thinking about that one for a while. That one's going to stick. Yeah, All right.

Have a great day. Take care. Feel better.

Thank you. Bye.

This one really got out of hand.

I feel like we need to do this again.

I'm sweating. Four for four.

They also grew in intensity. There was like a natural progression that felt scripted.

Oh my God. Bonne nuit. Bonne nuit.

. Are you going to go look into your- DNA? I feel like now I'm not anyone's, don't you? All those stories just make you feel It's like, well, shit.

Who are my everyone? Who am I?

Who's my mom? Are you my mommy? That's a great book. Are you my mother or something? Are you my mom? Are you my mom? I thought it was Are you my mother? She has a turtle. It could be mother, but- It's mother. Fuck. Sorry. Yeah, that's so formal. Sorry and thank you. No wonder people said no. They're like, you're stuck up. I'm your mother. I'm your mom.

Mother? If you didn't grow up with them, they're your mother.

The little bird asks a bulldozer if it's his mother. Are you my mother? Yes, Sam. It's a very sweet story. Yeah, sweet. All right. All right. I love you. Love you. Do you want to sing a tune or something? We know a theme song. Oh. Okay, great. We don't have a thing song for this new show, so here I go, go, go. We're going to ask some random questions, and with the help of Armchairs, we'll get some suggestions. On the fly, I'm Rindish. On the fly, Rindish. Enjoy. Follow Armchair Expert on the WNDRI app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now by joining WNDRI Plus in the WNDRI app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wundri. Com/survey.

Imagine this.

You help your little brother land a great job abroad, but when he arrives, the job doesn't exist.

Instead, he's trapped in a heavily guarded compound, forced to sit at a computer and scam innocent victims, all while armed guards stand by with shoot-to-kill order.

Others. Scam Factory, the explosive new true crime podcast from WNDYRI, exposes a multibillion dollar criminal empire operating in plain sight. Told through one family's harrowing account of sleepless nights, desperate phone calls, and dangerous rescue attempts, Scam Factory reveals a brutal truth.

The only way out is to scam their way out.

Follow Scam Factory on the WNDRI app or wherever you get your podcast. You can binge all episodes of Scam Factory early and ad-free right now by joining WNDRI Plus.