Wndri Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join WNDRI Plus in the WNDRI app or on Apple podcast, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcast. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Sheppard. I'm joined by Monica Padman. Hi. I want to quickly say that our guest is Dr. Blaise Aguirre.

Aguirre.

Blaise Aguirre. Aguira. You say it. I'm going to own it. I'm having a very hard time pronouncing Blaise's last name because it's A-G-U-I-R-R-E. And Wabiwaba was nice enough to write it out phonetically for me. Yes. Which is E-H, gear, E.

Aguira. Aguira. Yeah. That's a hard one.

It's a hardy. Yeah. But I'm not a baddy.

No, you're not.

Okay. Dr. Blaze is a child and adolescent psychiatrist and an assistant professor in psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. He's one of the world's foremost experts on borderline personality disorder. We've been dying to get an expert on BPD in here, and we finally have, and it was incredibly interesting.

So interesting. We do love a deep dive into a personality disorder. Great.

I have been trying my best to repeat everything he said. I tell my entire family on in this whole interview. You did. Yeah, I found him, Blaze, to be incredibly interesting. Yeah, me too. His primary focus and specialty is he has dealt with 5,000 suicidal patients, and That is a very unique experience for a psychiatrist to have. If you want to talk to an expert on this topic, this is the guy. It was incredibly informative. He has a book out. Again, I've already given away that one a copy I read, and then I've ordered two more for people I love. I hate myself. Overcome self-loathing and realize why you're wrong about you. Yeah, this is an incredible topic.

Hopefully, will help a lot of people.

Yeah, I think so. You had another big crazy endorsement for a CPD and dialectical behavioral therapy. Which we've had a Jenny Tate's we had on was also a DBT specialist. Yeah, it's pretty amazing stuff. Please enjoy Dr. Blaze Aguirra. Aguirra. Dr. Blaze Aguirra.

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This season, Ginges Khan.

Best known for his brutal campaigns, he was accused of causing millions of deaths, but he also gave his followers religious freedom and education. So is there more to his story history than Violence and Bloodshed? I suspect that there might be, Peter. And since Violence and Bloodshed is basically all I ever learned about Ginges Khan growing up, I'm actually really curious to find out what lies behind the legend. I can promise you are in for a treat because the Mongols were capable of exceptional acts of brutality. But all the stuff in the positive column either is never talked about or gets brushed to one side. So I'm really grateful to have the chance to speak up for Mongol history. Follow Legacy Now, wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad free on WNDYRI Plus. Can I start with a question I'm so embarrassed to ask you?

Yeah. I've never seen your first name.

Blaze, Patron Saint of Throats. I grew up Catholic.

Are you Irish?

Half Irish, half Iberian. Aguirre is actually Basque from Northern Spain. My mother is actually Spanish. So Blaze is the Patron Saint of Throats. It's interesting, her name is Isabel, and Blaze and Isabel are anagrams. Oh, wow. I was like this with my mom. That's so sweet. Where did you grow up? I grew up in South Africa.

Oh, you did? Okay, that's why I came up.

You got a lot going on. Yeah, you're high That's a lot going. Have you been to San Sebastian? Yes.

In 2011, some Spanish people found me and they said, Oh, would you teach dialectical behavior therapy in Spain? I said, Yeah, of course I will. But I spoke like an eight-year-old because I left Spain when I was eight. Then I said, Okay, I'm committed to learning I flew in Spanish. Every year, I go to Bilbao.

Home of the Gary building.

Exactly. I've been there. You've been there. Yeah, we went with Kelly. He was so worldly. I know.

Okay, so you grew up till eight in Spain.

I was born in Columbus, Indiana. I left when When I was one, we moved to London. My brother was born there. Then from there, we moved to Spain. I had four siblings born there. Then we moved to South Africa, and two siblings were born there. I'm the eldest of eight, born in four countries on three continents.

I can't even begin to guess at what industry would have brought your parents to all those locations?

My grandfather, Antonio Garriges, was the Spanish ambassador in the Kennedy Whitehouse. Oh, wow. They actually grew very close to the Kennedy's. My mother had been the daughter of a diplomat. Her mom had died, and she was the eldest girl, so she took over hostess.

Learn that trade.

Exactly. Then my dad was in the US Navy at the time. He was in the Pentagon. Then they met at some official function. Then he started an import and export business I guess those were all seaports.

I could have put that together. Exactly. I could imagine this could do a real number on you identity-wise.

Yes and no. I had this mom who was such a profound, loving mainstay. My dad was very conservative and identified much more strongly with my mom.

You were anchored and tethered to her.

Exactly. She was so grounded in her own sense of self. But I definitely have seen, even living in the United States, if I'm in little towns where people haven't moved out of those little towns, their identity is that. Having traveled, it's really been interesting.

Do you think it at all gives you a healthy outsider's perspective that you're observant of these places you go? And while there's a different modus operandi here, that's intriguing what's going. Do you think that could be the seeds of why you find your way to psychology and psychiatry?

I wanted to be a philosopher, but what they say, how do you get a philosopher off your front port? Pay for the goddamn pizza.

That's good. I haven't heard that. I pay for the pizza.

That took me a second. So not a highly employable skillset.

Not a highly employable skillset. It did get me curious about the mind, and then that led me to psychology, which led me psychiatry. So I went to medical school in South Africa. And then I became an expert in dialectical behavior therapy. So all I do is treat suicidal kids. And I've been doing that since 2007. But then teaching in Jerusalem was different from teaching in Riyadh, was different than teaching in the UAE, different than teaching in South Africa, teaching in Spain. And looking at identity and pathology through this cultural lens is just really interesting.

Through all this travel, by the way, obviously, you inherited your parents' wanderlust if you've been in all these places.

I'm actually going to India in two weeks and introducing DBT. We're seeing increasing rates of suicide in Indian youth, and whatever we're doing isn't helping. I'll be there in two weeks, and I'll be in Spain in four weeks.

Okay. But throughout this whole time, you have held a position for 25 years at McLean Hospital? Yeah, I have. We've had a great interest in borderline personality disorder. It comes up occasionally, and we've yet to have an expert on, and you've written three or four books about borderline. We sometimes talk out of school on it. We have the thinest understanding of what the predictable pattern of someone suffering from that is. We could be completely wrong because we've fucked up OCD a couple of times. We've stepped in it. Our colloquially understanding.

Yeah, we try to fix those things by having someone who really knows in the room.

I think we've had about 5,000 patients come through our programs since we opened them in 2007. I'd say about 70% have had borderline personality disorders.

Is there enormous correlation between suicidal ideation or suicide and BPD?

Yeah, very high. For the people who come to my unit, I don't remember one that hasn't had suicidal ideation. I say, Oh, those 5,000, they've all had suicidal ideation. A very large percentage have made attempts. Now, it's possible that the people who come to my unit are people with very severe forms of BPD. It's like not everybody with asthma ends up in an intensive care unit.

It's a spectrum disorder.

Exactly. I think that there's mild to very severe forms. But I think that when you get to the severe forms, almost everybody has suicidal ideation and self-destructive behaviors.

Okay, so first of all, what is the difference between a mood disorder and a personality disorder?

Mood disorder, as we think a little bit about it, is you have discrete episodes of mood states, typically either depressed or manic, that last for a certain period of time, 10 days, two weeks, and respond typically to treatment, such as medication and cognitive behavioral therapy. When you're in that state, there's very little reactivity to that state. When somebody is depressed, they stay in that state for some period of time. With personality disorders, there are traits about who you are, the way that you experience yourself in relationship to other people. Maybe you're emotionally very intense. Maybe you tend to be reactive to what people say and do. That those personality traits, when activated, interfere with your ability to function. What's confusing is that, say somebody has border personality disorder and everything's going fine. To the outside observer, they're just doing fine. But they're on Instagram and they didn't get invited to a party, and they see or their friends at a party, and now there's incredible rage, incredible anger, incredible jealousy, envy, and it spikes their emotional state. In that state, they cannot function. Their relationships begin to be impacted. Maybe their work does.

That's already revelatory to me because I thought of it as a status quo. You're in a state of this disorder.

This is what's interesting. Let's just say that somebody was drunk and they walked into the studio and we all walk in independently. We could see that the person is drunk. That state is permanent in that moment. But let's just say it's somebody with border personality disorder and you guys have a good relationship with that person, but I've really pissed them off. Then you come in, you're chit-chatting and everything, and I walk in and suddenly you see this spike of rage. From your perspective, that person seems to be doing fine. But from my perspective, all of a sudden this person's angry and maybe they're devaluing me or very, very upset, and you guys are saying, What's going on? That state only manifestsaces manifestsests when there's something either interpersonal or intrapersonal inside their own head that gets triggered.

Now, is narcissism in a state of flux as well?

It's interesting that I don't know narcissism as well. The reason why is because people with narcissism don't tend to come in for therapy. Exactly.

Yeah, we had a narcissist expert, and she said exactly that. One of the rarest cases to come seek treatment.

Yeah, you can't diagnose it, really, because who's coming in?

Understand it correctly from the expert we had on. It's like, you don't suffer from narcissism the way you suffer from some other- It's the scariest one because they're in it in such a way that they don't want to feel better.

Maybe I could teach you a thing or two.

Okay.

Give us some chips. What I'm saying is that's what the narcissist will say. Oh, oh. Yeah, But the most common comorbidity with a personality disorder is another personality disorder. You can have borderline personality disorder with some narcissistic traits. One of the ways in which I have been able to work with a few cases of people with a narcissistic personality disorder is to say Here's the thing, no one actually likes you. You also have to just call it out as the truth. I know that you feel that people adore you and you're surrounded by people who you believe are supportive. They don't actually. The thing about it is you can't even see it. I'm going to teach you how to see the world differently, even if you don't feel that what I'm telling you is true, because what's happening is that you're lonely for a narcissist, like what's going on. Is it actually about everybody else or maybe it's about you? Most Basically, it's hard for me to answer that question only because I see so few people with NPD.

Yeah, so what are the symptoms of- Boreline personality.

Yeah. I talk a lot about it in the book because that's the group that I found with most self-hatred and self-loathing was the of people with borderline personality. Okay, so if we go through the criteria, the first criteria is frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. What do I mean by that? Nobody wants to be abandoned and say, Okay, I'm going to go home, my kids and wife will disappear. Yeah.

I know. I'm already scared. Every time we have someone on who's speaking about psychology, I think I have it.

That's your OCD.

What's so beautiful about this is we're all on the spectrum. Who wants to be abandoned? Go home. The people who love you aren't going to be there because they don't want to be there with you anymore. Well, that would be terrifying. But the person with border personality just fears it, whether it's real or whether it's not real. Sometimes it's like, boy, this relationship is so painful for me that I can't be with you anymore. And so then that's real abandonment. But then the other one is no one's ever liked me, no one's ever cared about me. I just worry that people are going to abandon me. Then what they start to do, this is the first part of the criteria, frantic efforts to avoid the abandonment. It's constant text, constant phone calls, constant seeking of reassurance. Then to the other person, it's like, how many more times do I need to tell you I love you? It becomes actually the behavior that then creates the self-fulfilling prophecy. It's just like, I can't do this more. Yes.

Okay, that a little bit matches what my understanding was that you'll find people with BPD will become very quickly infatuated with somebody. They'll get very quickly close and heightened. Then there will be some period where they've decided you're actually out to get them, and then they will flip to a comparable level of hatred.

Okay, so you've actually touched on two of the other criteria. The second criteria is intense interpersonal relationships. They're very rapid very intense, characterized by extremes of idealization and devaluation. In one moment, I just met you, Dax, you're the best person ever. I'm going to marry you tomorrow. There's this glow, and then all of a sudden, hey, listen, I'm not making it for dinner tonight, you're the worst person ever. What did I ever see in you? Then the ninth criteria, which you find, especially if there's been trauma, is paranoia. Clearly, you're plotting against me. Clearly, you must be seeing somebody else. Clearly, you never cared about me. I'm very suspicious of that. Now, just imagine living that way. So awful. The thing is people don't choose it. It's not a choice to live that way.

I often say this even with pedophilia, which is like, no one went to the grocery store, looked at the fucking options on the shelf, and I'm like, I'll take that. No one would pick that.

Exactly. It's heartbreaking. The compassionate thing is just to remind yourself of it.

Treating them has got to be one of the most precarious because naturally, they would probably want to idolize you initially.

They idolize me. Then when I, Hey, by the way, I need to cancel this session because I'm going to go to LA to be on.

Hang out with the movie stars. Hang out with the movie stars and everything is like, Where did you get your degree?

You're terrible. You're abandoning me, and all of that. The thing about it is it's such a horrible way to live because that's how you're experiencing the world. It feels so interpersonal. It is interpersonal, but it's a manifestation of pathology. It's not like I'm waking up in the morning and thinking, how am I going to mess up somebody else's life today? It's not malicious. But what happens is that when somebody gets really activated, the most difficult of their pathology begins to show up. But that happens to all of us. I've never met a person for whom this wouldn't be true, I could put you under so much stress, threaten the person you love most, that the worst of who you are, worst in quotation marks, whatever it is that you have to do to get through that moment would come out. The survival of listening. Exactly. And that when you're dysregulated, you can't think.

You have a part of your brain that is in charge of executive functions not accessible, right?

If you hear that your house is on fire right now, we're not continuing this interview. Wait a second. Don't you want to hear about borderline personalities? I'm going to go and save my house They're like living in survivor's-In many cases, yeah.

They feel also perfectly situated to be love addicts as well, because this is also a very similar cycle of love addiction.

Where it gets tricky is that... I mean, what a wonderful thing to feel loved. You can't make anyone love you. When you feel it, there isn't a word for it. Words do such a violence to our experience because we try to capture this concept in words. But I mean, what does a three-month-old say to its parent, I love you? No, it's not in the words. You feel something, and if you You felt threatened for such a long time, and then you're in the context of somebody who elicits a warmth and expansiveness in who you are, it's such a beautiful feeling. Then you want more of that. But who wouldn't want more of that? When you've been deprived for most of your life, you to cling to it. The problem is that that clinging can have its own consequences. That's where you start to see the fifth criteria, which is suicidal behavior, the sense of emptyness, and then the reactivity of mood. It's like, Wait, why are you looking at me that way?

I don't think anyone would be hearing this and not be able to quickly think of someone in their head. I'm going to, yeah, a couple of people that I've had this distinct feeling of, I can feel you creating a narrative about me that I'm out to get you. For me, on the other side, it's It's exhausting. It's a little demoralizing to the experience we've had. I've earned more than this, right? Exactly. Now, it's a spectrum, so there'd probably be a different answer for wherever you're at on this continuum. But are all of their relationships going to follow that pattern, or do some trigger it and others don't?

Yeah. The way I think about it, and a lot of my patients have really liked this, I think of a dartboard. I think about there's that inner circle, the bullseye, and then that one around. The people on that inner circle where there's the most are going to both experience the best of who the person is, but also the most difficult part. As you go out in the spectrum, trivial relationships, acquaintances, aren't going to be able to experience it. If we were to think about the earlier example of somebody who is, say, drunk, it wouldn't matter where you are on the dartboard, you'd see the person as drunk. But then often, if people are more acquaintance-level relationships, they're not going to see that behavior. It's not going to activate or trigger those strong emotions. Emotions. But the closer you are to the person, the more you're going to see it and the more it's going to be triggered. If you think about the brain of somebody with BPD as being a supercharged Porsche versus somebody who's driving a golf cart. Person who drives a golf cart, maybe that's their emotional range up to 20 miles an hour.

The person with BPD drives up to 200 miles an hour. It's okay to be emotionally intense and have that fast car, but you have to know how to drive it. For people with BPD, they've got this emotionally intense brain, but they just don't know how to manage it. They I don't have the skill set to do it. I'm a very emotionally intense person, but for me, it brings me joy. But that's because I know how to drive this brain. Even still, every now and then, I go a little too fast.

Well, you're a human. I mean, even when you say the bullseye thing, in general, we have our best in ourselves with our most intimate people. Absolutely.

I would imagine there's some also predictable fallout in their professional life and their relationships. Is there a pretty well-worn path that folks suffering from this find themselves on?

The historical narrative was that this was untreatable and that what would happen is that the lives would ultimately be lives of despair, of incompleteness. I just refused to accept that that was true. I said, I'm going to teach you how to drive your car at 200 miles an hour because you don't have that It. When you're able to do that, then you're able to function. Many of the people that I've worked with using treatments like dialectical behavior therapy.

Do I understand this? This is an offshoot of CBT, yeah?

Exactly. You have to be able to monitor those high states. But I think it's also monitoring the low state. The best way to do that is through the practice of mindful awareness of that moment. If I'm in a low state right now, it's like, I don't like the questions you're asking me. Why are you so annoying? Just leave me alone. I just want to go back to Boston and lie in bed.

Or I'm celebrated.

Yeah, I'm like, Wow, you think I'm the best interview that you've ever had? Can we be here for three hours and we can hang out? When I'm filtering that and then my mind runs away one way or another, it does a lot of damage. It is paying attention to that and saying, Okay, I'm heading that direction. I'm here. You know what? I'm just going to do the very best that I can. I'm going to pay attention to that. I'm going to catch my mind going to, I'm going to be the most celebrated interviewee ever, or like, they think I'm an idiot. They keep looking at their watches. It's catching that. That's the part that is the mindfulness piece. Then it's saying, what am I lacking in order to be able to manage it? That's more of the CBT part, the skills piece.

Okay, so what causes it?

It's the same thing as the topic of self-hatred. I've not made a person that wasn't highly sensitive that developed border personality disorder. First of all, the biological DNA condition is that the person with BPD tends to be a highly sensitive person.

Emotionally, are you know how some people are like, I'm an HSP and I can't wear these clothes.

It's a really good question. I think actually a lot of highly sensitive people do also have sensory issues, but it's more of an emotional highly sensitive. What do they do? They feel things quicker other people to seemingly smaller provocation. When they have reactions, they're bigger than their peer group. Then when they're feeling something, it takes longer for them to get down to baseline. Strong emotions are the super glue for labels. Let's just say that you call somebody, Hey, you're fat. Now, if they're not highly sensitive, they're going to brush it off. If they're highly sensitive, and that was a label that was used in childhood, that label is going to stick powerfully to the person's experience. It's super glue. It's like those fly traps to those kinds of labels. You have this highly sensitive child who then experiences what DVT calls invalidation, saying what you're saying doesn't matter so much. You're making a big deal of a thing. You're overreacting. And imagine somebody has a peanut allergy, and I give you some peanuts, and then you have a big reaction and saying, you're overreacting.

Which I am, by the way, to my cohort. Most people don't have anaphylactic shock from peanuts.

Exactly. And here you are. That's the reaction that I get when I'm exposed to the prompt that I'm getting. In this situation, that peanut is an expression of some dissatisfaction. By the way, it doesn't have to be done with malice. It could just be, why don't you like your older brother? If your older brother doesn't complain about things, gets up and goes to school. He doesn't care about those bullies in school. Come on, get up. It's okay. You're going to be okay. You are okay if you are okay. It's not like you say, today I'm going to be impacted by the cruel words that people say, and you are. It's because they don't have the ability to manage those things. It's a skills deficit problem. When you map invalidation onto a highly sensitive person, they're very much at risk of developing borderline personality.

The highly sensitive person is a physiological biochemical baseline you're born with? Yes. Is it observable in any part of your body or is it a neurochemical thing we would have to measure?

I think that's what the research shows. We wanted to see this response that people were having. We created this experiment where we compared typical teens with BPD teens. What we did is we had a cursor on a screen, and then you had the mouse. If the cursor moved one way, you had to just move the mouse to map it. Halfway through the experiment, we switched it so that if you move the mouse to the right- The opposite thing happens. What happens for typically developing teens, they get a bit annoyed, but then that's it. With people with BPD, it is really, really upsetting. You can see massive amygdala reactivity. I had a kid who was extremely bright, and I said, How was the test? She says, Oh, it was okay. I said, Wait, what? Did it upset you that the cursor went the other way? She said, No, I turned the mouse around.

Oh, my God. She outsmarded it.

She outsmarded the whole experiment.

Which would be a skill. That was something you would probably teach in CVT. Exactly.

If we think about the amygdala and you think about the hippocampal system, and then you think about the prefrontal cortex as the break. Again, if you're driving that fast car, having golf cart breaks for the fast car isn't going help you. So you either have to strengthen those breaks or learn how to drive that fast car a little bit slower.

It also overlaps what we would think of trauma response. I'm thinking of, of course, the beginning of Body Keeps the Score, and him observing veterans deal with these pretty trivial challenges and have these very outsized reactions. And I myself really relate to that deeply. I don't think because of a BPD situation, but because of a trauma one where the slightest thing for me becomes life death pretty quick. It's very similar. It's interesting how many ways there are to arrive at the same reaction.

Totally. At least 50% of the kids who come to our unit have had trauma with a capital T. But only about a third actually develop PTSD. Most people can have a traumatic event, including things like rape and not develop PTSD, which is really interesting. Actually, the majority, about 70% of people who've had those kinds of experiences, don't go on develop PTSD. That's probably because either they had a lot of other protective factors or maybe they weren't that emotionally reactive. The case would be that you're probably a highly sensitive person, actually.

I am quite sensitive.

Then the impact of those peanuts on you is going to be much, much more than for your peers.

Yeah, the combo. Exactly.

For people who are around that type of behavior who don't identify, is it okay to abandon them? I'm thinking of That's a very specific person in my life, and I did do that. I have a lot of guilt because I do know, Oh, God, this is the worst thing to do. It confirmed it, but I can't.

Here's what I think the key thing to do is I think that there's integrity in letting the person know. That is to say, when we get into the Porsche and you're driving at 200 miles an hour down Santa Monica Boulevard, I get scared. It's just too fast for me. When I'm with you, the kinds of emotional reactions and responses that you have are more than I can handle. Maybe I need to develop my own skillset, but it's too much for me. It's causing me a lot of pain. What it does is it pushes me away from you. I don't want to spend time with you. I think that that's really hurtful. I really hope that you can get some help or whatever it is. Ideally, if they were really in a much, much better state, whatever drew you to them in the first place, those qualities are still there. It's just that there's a lot of other qualities that are alienating. Maybe if you can get help, we could get back together. But this is too much for me to handle. I can't eat peanuts.

You're doing them a kindness and almost helping not confirm their own pattern, which is if you are to just ghost them and leave their life, you actually confirm everything they've been saying.

A hundred %.

Whereas if you say, I wanted to be a part of this and love you, the intensity for me is very scary. I am always feeling like I'm going to do something wrong. It gives me a state of anxiety, and I just can't handle that personally. I think that's of kindness.

We treat people as fragile, and it's the worst thing that we can do. If you just told me I've had trauma, and then I might have a reaction. I now have to filter everything I say through the idea that might be triggering you. Then I say, You know what? Sorry about the interview. I was walking on eggshells and I treated you as fragile. I'd rather just be able to have a conversation with you.

I would hate it. You would hate it to be treated as fragile. There's nothing I hate worse than being pitted or...

Pitted or being treated as fragile. By the way, I'm robbing you of an opportunity to tell me, You know what, Blaise? That was hurtful. I'm saying, Okay, Well, now I know. But I'm thinking, should I say peanut one more time?

Well, yeah. This gets tricky, though, because if you know someone well, I mean, let's... Depersonalize it? No, I'm going to personalize it. Okay, great. Wait a second.

Did you guys invite me here because this Yes, the therapy.

We always do.

We bring in the best experts in the world to try to navigate this partnership.

Exactly. The reason I can do this is because I don't think you have this. But I do think for both of us, we know each other's triggers. I'm going to try not to throw a bunch of peanuts in your face because I know that causes pain or that is going to cause a huge reaction. I am avoiding it, but out of care.

There's two things about that. One thing is, right now, we don't have good treatments for peanut energies, and you just know nothing that we do at this point in time because we don't have a treatment for it. But let's just say that you know that there are things that are part of ordinary life that might be triggering. Then the responsibilities for the other person to say, Do I need to exposure therapy? Baisal and I often talk about psychodrama, stuff, while he keeps the score, that work, that it doesn't actually serve you to not have dealt with that. Because in this context, you could say, Well, we know each other very well. I'm not going to say things are going to be activating. But you walk onto the street and somebody is going to say something And I would rather know that there's something wrong and then I make a choice about I'm going to deal with it or I'm not going to deal with it. You don't intentionally want to be upsetting someone. At the same time, you're not the world. The world is going to do upsetting things.

You could be soft kids gloving it, but you're one person. So what do you really... Yeah. I think we could further articulate devaluing.

It came from an old psychoanalytic concept, so more like Freudian ideas. And I was trained in Freudian psychoanalysis. I then moved to behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy. The idea is that I, as an individual, feel very flawed, but that's unbearable for me to experience. So I project my lack of value onto you, and then I devalue you when you're doing behaviors that I don't like. Devaluing is like, you're the worst person ever.

Could we say if you notice who you hate, it generally will fall into two categories. They either exhibit a side of yourself you hate about yourself or they've achieved some success in this deficit you think you have.

Yeah, I think that we see both of those things. But I think there's often an emotion that shows up before that, and that is sadness, maybe jealousy. But staying in that emotional state is very painful. It moves from that primary emotion, which is generally 10 to 30 seconds, to a secondary emotion, which includes a lot of cognitions and thoughts about what the other person is.

Creating the story to explain the feeling you initially had.

Exactly right.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

I'm John Robbins, and joining me on How Do You Cope this week is the musician Justin Hawkins. How big a meatloaf fan I am. A big meatloaf fan. I remember he came over to me, grabbed me, and he squeezed me, and he said to me, I want you to think of me as your father. And he had like sausage on his breath. So every time I smell sage and pork, I think of meatloaf. So that's How Do You Cope with me, John Robbins. Find us wherever you get your podcasts. I'm I'm Jon Robbins, and on my podcast, I sit down with incredible people to ask the very simple question, How do you cope? From confronting grief and mental health struggles to finding strength in failure. Every episode is a raw and honest exploration of what it means to be human. It's not always easy, but it's always real. Whether you're looking for inspiration, comfort, or just a reminder that you're not alone in life's messier moments, join me on How Do You Cope. Follow now wherever you get your podcasts or listen to episodes early and ad free on WNDYRI Plus. How Do You Cope is brought to you by Audible, who make it easy to embark on a wellness journey that fits your life with thousands of audiobooks, guided meditations, and motivational series.

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Okay, so the treatment for this, I mean, 5,000 patients, I would imagine I couldn't ask someone better about what the course of action is if someone does want to confront this.

I've been trained in different modalities. As with everything, in the same way that no one antibiotic treats every infection and no one exercise is the exercise to make you fit. No one treatment is the treatment. There's MBT, mentalizing-based therapy, there's schema therapy, there's all sorts of therapies. What I like about dialectical behavior therapy, especially in the people that come to see me is that DBT says, Until we've addressed suicide and suicidal thinking, none of the rest of therapy makes any sense. Sure.

We have to first keep you alive.

I often say, Listen, I'm one of the best DBT therapists in the world. I haven't been able to treat a dead person. I have to keep you alive. There's a lot of irreverence in DVT. You got to be a little bit careful. I don't want to talk about your difficult relationships or your struggles with your sense of self until we have an idea that when suicidal thoughts show up, which they're going to, that you are not then going to act on them. Often what happens, and this is where I think other therapies get this wrong, they start exploring what caused the pain without having the skill set to manage the strong emotions and suicidal thoughts that come up. We say, Until you know how to drive that Porsche, we're not going to talk about going on a racetrack or anything else.

Why you wanted a Porsche in the first place. Exactly. You're right. You're already driving this fucking thing. Not very well, but...

And it's It's painful to unearth all of this stuff. Exactly. So it's going to just exacerbate the situation.

So when you don't have the skillset to be able to manage those things leading to the suicidal thoughts and behaviors and self-destructiveness, toxic relationships, devaluing relationships, we're not going to do that. Actually, for a lot of the young people who come to see me, if they're not in relationship, I say, you can't be in relationship until we're done with treatment because you're bringing the worst version of yourself into relationship and what you're going to attract because of your low energy state state is people at the same low energy state, and it's going to be negativity that drags you down rather than the higher version of who you could be. You have to regulate before you can reflect. The problem is that a lot of people with BPD are in a heightened state of dysregulation a lot of the time.

Yeah, I will say I'm generally skeptical of all the modern child-raising advice that comes over the transom every 36 hours, but one that I have recently heard that my wife is a big proponent of, which can't help but agree with. I think anyone who's got kids could relate to this. It's like the kid does something, they injure themselves, and you want to teach them a lesson in that moment. You go, that's why you don't play with scissors. But that part of their brain you want to access is not accessible until you've regulated that. Exactly. The first order of business has to be, let's calm everyone down. Exactly. Let's return to some homeostasis where this lesson you're going to give them could even be heard.

I've got four kids, and my second has become a social worker. My third is in law school and the other one is doing AI. And so very, very different kids. I recently went to Vegas with my son because we wanted to walk in the desert and hike and meditate. And I said, what is some of the most brilliant advice I ever gave you? He says, I don't remember at all. Not once. A lot of it was actual bullshit. But I remember how you made me feel, and it was very, very moving. Because when we settled and we were connected, he felt safe. He didn't remember what I said? Yeah.

Is there any part of the treatment that is pharmacological?

Not for core borderline personality disorder. I think people have tried to use contemporary drugs and been part of doing some studies with experimental drugs that seem to dampen down amygdala response because it has to do with a perception of self in the context of relationship. And there's no medication that can do that. Now, parents have said, well, isn't there something that can calm my child down? I said, yes, it's called anesthesia. I promise you, Denise, the car is the child. They are not going to misbehave at all. You can dampen down the brain so much that a person cannot think, can't stay awake.

These are the horror stories.

Now, having said that, BPD has a lot of comorbidity. Say a person has bipolar disorder, who has obsessive compulsive disorder or severe major depression. The biological intervention through medication is to treat the comorbidity, but not core BPD.

Got you. How successful is the treatment?

What I was told when we the unit in 2007 is that for hospitalized people, the research showed 10% would die by suicide.

God, really quick, take that in. To know that one in 10 of your patients you'll have to watch die is a very gnarly endeavor. Right.

So we've had 5,000 as far as we know, because people respond fewer than 30. By the way, every single one of those is tragic. We've reduced the number, any number, and this is where the thought of the book then starts to show up.

Okay, so through the In the course of all this work and the 5,000 patients, it occurs to you at some point, you're occasionally hearing something, but you're not really focused on it. It's not something that's listed in the DSM that should be addressed. And you basically are led by your patience to start considering self-hatred and self-loathing as a condition that really needs exploration, research. We need to really start considering that this is a component that needs to address How do you come to this?

When I thought about the people who'd taken their lives and whose parents I was really close to, and I looked back on the records, the one thing that came up in the people who had tragically lost their lives to suicide was statements of self-hatred. Now, if you've had therapy, so you go in for an initial psychiatric evaluation, what's your name? How old are you? What do you do professionally? How do you sleep? Do you have any nightmares? How's your eating? Energy level, obsessions, compulsions, Do you hear voices, suicidal thoughts, homicidal thoughts? Are you anxious? Anything else you want to talk about? How's your attention and concentration? Ruminations, compulsions, whatever it is. No one ever asks about self-hatred.

I've not been asked that.

You've not been asked that in any psychiatric evaluation. Here was the numbers in terms of the people who tragically took their life. They were expressing self-hatred. When I started to speak to people who had persistent suicidal ideation and behaviors, I started to say, wait a second, if those former patients of mine acted on suicide and discussed self-hatred, let me ask these people about self-hatred. I would say, what do you think about yourself? They said, I don't like myself very much. Well, how much do you not like yourself? Not very much at all. Is it ever self-hatred? It would surprise them because that would be the first time in tons and tons of therapy that somebody had actually asked, Do you not like yourself to the point of self-hatred? It'd be like, Yeah, I do hate myself.

There's There's lots of excerpts of dialog between you and patients. I don't know why, but I'm blown away with how intelligent some of the patients are and how articulate. Some of them are downright confrontational with you, which I think is so brave and cool. There's something about the dynamic that makes that hard. And one of your patients, a young woman, is like, you're not listening to me. Exactly. I'm not upset with myself in this moment. I hate myself across the board. You need to fucking listen to me. And I'm impressed and grateful that someone would have that conviction to push back against you like that.

I tell patients, I said, if I've gotten it wrong, you've got to just tell me I've gotten it wrong, because otherwise I'm going to continue down this path, believing what I believe to be true.

You two are also limited by your own experience. A hundred %. So yes, you've learned from the DSM all these other things, and you know how to look for them. But because you yourself can't necessarily relate immediately to a constant state of self-hatred, it's a little inconceivable until it's detailed for you.

Yeah.

What does it mean? Because I think a lot of people I feel like, well, I hate myself often.

Yeah, or I feel like a failure sometimes.

I'm lazy.

Let's just imagine a binary world. Do you identify as male? Yes. Female? Yes. Okay. Now, how certain are you of those states?

A hundred %.

Okay. What if I told you that you were wrong? What if I told you that, you know what, I actually quickly snuck a DNA test and you're actually X, Y, and you're actually X, X? How easy would it be for me to convince you that you're female?

It'd be impossible.

Impossible. Male?

I mean, I guess if you had proof.

Okay, no, but not only that.

Okay, so here's- Hold on a second. This couldn't be proven to you.

Even if I had like, okay, here's your DNA.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

You'd go, that's fucked up. Exactly. So even if I said, okay, here's some proof. Now You need to be convinced.

I would pull my dick out and go, great, you're holding that. I'm showing you this. Right.

But here's what I want you to do is you're actually wrong about yourself. You are actually female. What would the relationship between me and you be if I kept insisting that you had to see yourself as female?

Well, you would be an adversary. You would be a threat. You would be someone that's living in certainly a different reality than I am.

Exactly. Because there's nothing that I could do that would convince you that's the level of belief.

Right. So I'm saying I'm worthless and I am toxic. They use often this term toxic. It doesn't matter what proof you present to them.

Right. It doesn't matter. There is no separation from the isness of self-hatred.

Meaning they're as convicted about that as they would be about their biological Biological sex.

Biological identity. Then if I say, Okay, you know what? I want to start talking about self-hatred, it's as alienating as if it would be, I want you to start thinking of yourself as this other gender. I know. I've got kids. I know who I am. You're not going to convince me out of this. We're wasting time in therapy because I don't want to talk about this.

Yeah, so it's very hard to tackle, it sounds like.

Well, that was the problem is that I thought, okay, so now what I need to do is tackle self-hatred. Why aren't any therapies tackling self-hatred? I did what academics do, which is to go to the literature and I'm saying, Find me the 10,000 papers on self-hatred and three show up. That's all I could find.

What was the conclusion of those papers or the thesis of those?

Self-hatred is very hard to tackle. Each paper ended with we I'm going to give up.

Exactly, because I can't convince you that you're female.

You should get me in the room. I'm easily convinced.

Yeah, you're a great candidate. Exactly. Every misleading, in fact.

It's this construct that gets internalized as truth. If ever there is greater fake it is that. Because a child is not born hating itself. It has to learn to hate. If it can learn to hate itself, it can learn to love itself.

Jules wrote a foreword.

Yeah.

What we learn in that story is that she had an abusive father who was an addict. We've interviewed her. Yes, we had. And that at 15, she started considering just moving out, and she's starting to confront whether she'll feel better from that, and recognizing that he's the bad guy in the story. But even when she's away from him, the bad guy is still there in this concept of internalizing your abuser, which is fascinating. She has this beautiful metaphor where she's peeling an orange, and she starts to become open to the idea that what she thinks of as herself is actually the peel of the orange. That peel is there to protect this beautiful fruit inside from all the elements. And that perhaps the trauma is just the peel. And she doesn't She doesn't actually know who she is. The nurture is the peel and the nature is this orange inside, and she becomes dedicated to finding the real her. It's so beautiful. Does that align nicely?

So much, I was thinking, Okay, who am I going to get to write the forward I was thinking all these famous people, psychiatrists, and other things like that. When I met Jules in 2019, I found a kindred spirit. I loved how she paid attention to who she was, to the impact of things, how she is meditation and skills building. It's almost as if she developed dialectical behavior therapy on her own because of the way that she paid attention. I found a kindredness in this, and I thought, because she's so kindred, I want her to write. Ironically, my publisher had already decided that the cover was going to be orange. They'd already determined and you see the peeling piece, and she writes this independent of knowing the covers.

That's so serendipitous. You have your own DSM in your head where you would be able to delineate what is average disappointment in oneself versus something that needs this true attention and these tools.

Because if you were to come into therapy and say, I'm so dissatisfied, I'm really upset about something. I said, What's going on? You said, I did this interview or I met this person or I try to do something. Just didn't work out the way I wanted it to. What are you saying about yourself? That I'm not very good under certain circumstances. Okay, let's just talk about that. Then how can we work on that? That stuff is typically dealt with in cognitive of indilectal behavioral therapy, CBT, DBT. It's when I say, Okay, let's just address the ways in which you're dissatisfied with yourself. That's when you get the patient saying, You're not listening to me. This is not a flaw that can be fixed.

I'm a toxic entity.

I am an entity that is not only toxic- Repellent. It could be repellent to people, but there's something called the interpersonal theory of suicide. What are the elements that lead people to make a determination that suicides the answer? One of them is loneliness, non-connectedness. It has a certain weight to acting and completing suicide. But another element to this, which is much more powerful, is burdensomeness. I am a burden to those around me and to the world, and I have nothing to contribute.

The world would be better without me.

The world would be better off without me. I wouldn't be a burden to my family.

Yes, this young woman in your book, when explaining to you why she's so worthless, it's implicit. She's already had a suicide I am. Yeah. Her mother is, she knows, worrying about her all day long. The weight of that, I'm causing this person, I love all this distress, and just one thing after another, that's, I'm a burden, and this place would be better without me.

That is a weird well-fulfilling prophecy, too, because, of course, you're not a burden, but people are worried about you when you're in that state.

By the way, and here's the other thing is, I don't try to reassure people that they're not a burden. Some of that behavior is burdensome. It's not like they're going to say, Okay, that isn't a burden. Maybe they'll try to I hear you, but that's disingenuous. That's not honest. I'm saying some of that behavior is burdensome, but much of your behavior is you washing all the dishes before your mom comes home at night. Is that burdensome? No, that's actually helpful. What about taking your little sister to school? Is that burdensome? Well, no. There's all these things that they do that aren't burdensome, but that's not how they're filtering their experience.

What was your personal breakthrough in treating this? What were the things you started noticing could work?

I started to think about conditions that had been highly stigmatized, whether it was HIV/AIDS, and I was in South Africa at the time, and no one would talk about it, cancer, things like that. The first thing you have to just talk about it. We are going to bring it up because it is actually impacting your life in terms of your relationship choice your academic choices, your employment choices, your friendship choices.

You can definitely see it as fuel for the BPD.

A hundred %. The second thing is I needed to drive a wedge between who you are and self-hatred. Now, are your parents English speakers? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Why don't either of you speak, I don't know, Greek?

Nobody taught me.

From very early on, you weren't taught. If I had packed you from your crib and put you into a Greek-speaking family, that's what you would have learned. The idea is that you aren't born speaking English or Greek or anything. You're born blank slate in terms of language, and you learn something because you're exposed to that thing, that you weren't born hating yourself. You learned how to hate yourself.

Yeah, that's a big admission.

That was the only way in which I was able to break through.

They could hear that.

They could hear that they learned. I would say, who were your teachers? The other part of it is I wanted them to start writing, You weren't born hating yourself. When do you have a recollection of you starting to hate yourself? I want you to write that down. I want to know who your teachers of self-hatred were. The bully in school, the parent who expected perfectionism, the comparison with a more achieving the teacher who abused you. All of these teachers said that you were not enough.

There's even incidents where your conclusion could be that, right? Because this woman eventually writes you this letter, which is really inspiring. She's the reason that her parents got divorced. Neither of them needed to tell her that. That could have just been a conclusion she made. Exactly.

So there's all this faulty conclusion. And the more you're exposed to you being the fault of something, the more every single time something goes wrong.

It's like muscle memory.

Exactly. It's like, that must be the reason because I am this broken individual. And so that's what happens. And the other thing is we often determine the righteousness or the wrongness of something we do based on the outcomes. If you are really hungry and I give you $10, that's all you have. And you go and you buy a sandwich, well, that would make sense. But let's just say you go and buy a lottery ticket. And I say, what are you doing? You're hungry and you buy a lottery ticket. But then you win $100 million. You say, you see? It was still the wrong decision to make. I mean, you got lucky. But we determined that it was the right decision just because you won $100 million.

The ends justified the means.

If you were exhausted right now because you hadn't had a good night's sleep, this interview might go differently, and you might be critical about that and say, Okay, next time I want to get better sleep. But it would make sense that it would be different if you were exhausted.

In my nature, it would be to confirm a shortcoming I have and ignore the sleep aspect. Exactly.

You would say, I'm not going to pay attention to any vulnerability factors that may have shown up.

I have to be fully responsible. This is a failing.

Exactly.

It's almost self-agranda. It's putting way too much. It's ego, really.

When the Dalai Lama was asked about self-hatred, he said it's a form of self-indulgence and self-absorption that is actually toxic I am the best, worst person on the planet. There's certainly this faulty self-evaluation that's taking place.

That's the thing in AA, which is the other side of the coin of self-aggrandizement is self-pity. That was very helpful for me to police self-pity, which is like, it's just as ego-maniacal to think the world is conspiring against you. You're not that important on either end.

At all. As I say, our common destiny is just stardust. In any case, we aren't that important. Then I think that when you tell somebody who doesn't feel that good about themselves, Hey, look, you're not that important, but more am I.

You don't have the power to make your parents get divorced. You don't have the power to keep them married.

Exactly. You think that you're so impactful when you actually aren't. It's liberating that the one thing that you have is to recognize that you're having an experience and then make a decision about what you're going to do. One interesting thing that patients say, Well, I have this tendency or I have this habit. I say, Okay, you can no longer say that. Once you recognize a tendency or a habit, it's now a choice.

That's tough medicine.

The thing is, the glory that I have is when a patient leaves therapy. I don't want to keep them in therapy. That shouldn't be your primary relationship. You should be able to function on your own. It's always interesting to me when people have been in therapy for 10 or 15 years with the same therapist Because if you think of therapy as getting to a place of autonomy, dominion over self, self-agency, what's that about? I speak very bluntly. I challenge colleagues to really examine that. Now, if somebody, say, has bipolar disorder and they need medication to be able to manage manic depressive episodes, that person is probably going to need somebody to continue to prescribe and to check in. We've pathologized so many typical human experiences that all of a sudden you can't walk without being a pathological specimen.

Well, this is the great danger of the DSM that's implicit is inadvertently we're establishing what normal is. Now that there's normal, that's the objective. Then your belief about what normal is, which is not true. Yeah, it's all slippery.

Well, that's the benefit of going to other cultures because American pathology is different than other countries. It's not all the same thing. To know that we just defined it.

Okay, so once When you drive that wedge in there and you get them to accept that they weren't born this way, which I can see on the surface is very powerful, how now do you start nudging them towards, considering they could return to that?

The other thing that I've done with many of my patients, maybe they're in their late teens, early 20s, is I want them to bring me photos of their birthday, age one, age two, age three, age four, age five until now. I say, Okay, do you hate that one-year-old? Do you hate that two-year-old? When does it start? Even if you say it starts when I'm six or seven in kindergarten, so do you really hate that little girl, that little boy? Do you hate that person? They said no, because they were abused, they were hurt. What would you do if that little girl came into your life? You would hate her because she learned.

She was already so fucking flawed and busted that you would dispose of her.

Absolutely. And that what the messaging was, she was a highly sensitive kid for whom rejection and criticism, stuck so powerfully and started to believe that about herself. She carried that burden until now. Now, let me ask you this, does future you want to hate herself? They say no. So say, okay, but if your goal is to climb to the top of the mountain, sitting around playing video games isn't going to get you anywhere. You have to start doing squats, running, you got to start doing some hiking so that eventually future you will be grateful for present you if you start taking the steps necessary to hike the top of the mountain, that's your goal. If future you doesn't want to hate herself, then you have to start taking the steps right now to recognize that it was learned, to start recognizing any life-affirming behaviors as acts of self compassion and then not give the power to your toxic teachers to continue to define who you are as a human being. The narrative has to be no. No longer do I accept that I was broken, that I was flawed, that I was stupid. Okay, I recognize I'm sensitive, and I recognize that there's labels stuck.

There's a moment, again, back to this young woman where, boy, it feels like you take a huge swing. I can't imagine myself doing this But the outcome was really interesting, which is she had taken time to write you this long letter, and it was full of lots of kind things about you. She clearly took a lot of time on it, and read it, and she is not to a place yet where she has transcended self-hatred. You said, This is lovely, and I can see you've taken a lot of time on it, but I'm afraid I have to reject this.

You cannot give that which is not within you to give. You cannot experience that which is not with you to experience. If we go back to this idea- I like the stolen money analogy you gave her.

You can't give someone $100 you stole. Exactly.

It has to be within you. What's it like to have your menstrual period every month, Dax?

That's rough. I'm so mean to my husband.

How dare you?

Exactly. It doesn't matter. There's no way that you can experience that because you don't have that experience. When you experience love, when you experience kindness, it's happening inside of you. You are the source of it, there might be things in the environment that allow it to manifest more. But if it's not within you already, it doesn't matter who shows up or what shows up. If it's within you, and if it's within you to give, it's within you to give to yourself as Yeah, you said to accept this, you hate yourself and you're toxic and you're devoid of love.

So this letter is the opposite of that. For me to accept it would be to accept a lie.

There's a concept in DBT is going where angels fear to tread. I have to enter the experience of ultimate darkness with a patient and risk that what I'm saying could potentially be very destabilizing.

Yes, because that, particularly not knowing her diagnosis, but if she were BPD, this is ripe to fulfill the narrative that you're not what she thought, rejecting this thing I spent all this time on. Exactly. But it did penetrate. I guess you get great at knowing when the time is.

That's exactly right. I have to know that the relationship is strong enough to be able to withstand.

I think her making that letter to you was a good flag for you.

What was happening with her that she did that?

What was happening is that she was one of these people who was uber talented and lots of things. Sadly, I think that this happens more with women who were ultra-intelligent, very talented. They're objectified in a certain way that they're only seen through this one lance of maybe attractiveness or whatever it is. Or good. Any of those things. And yet there's a multi-dimensional capacity, whether it's artistic, linguistic, cognitive, and other things that don't actually often get seen. Her experience of being hurt for such a long time led to this experience of self-hatred. She was also very self-destructive in terms of a lot of self-injury and a lot of suicide attempts. We had really reduced all of that to the point that her relationships with her family were better and everything. She was grateful for that, but this core self-hatred still remained. I was floundering at that time because I didn't know what to do. That was in the early days of my program, and I just decided to go for it. I realized that there was a lot of risk, but I also had seen that she had been able to tolerate some very, very difficult moments.

The one thing that I seen is whether she could tolerate a difficult moment with me. I said, I have so much compassion for you. Her argument was, That's because you don't see me completely. You see some of the things that I do.

You don't really know me.

If you did, then you would also have the hatred for me. She actually once showed up a few minutes late, and people, for many reasons, show up late. She said, I think you should punch me in the face as punishment for this incredible transgression when I had so much loving compassion for somebody who made an effort, showed up, really worked hard, and it was inconsistent with the way that she saw herself. That was early on. Later on, we were able to do this. Subsequently, she began to see. In fact, there was a lot of worthiness. When she started to do that, she started to exercise more.

Becomes a virtuous cycle.

It does. It went the other way.

What are some things you feel new in our culture that are compounding this?

We market to self-hatred. You're not tall enough, you're not skinny enough, your boobs aren't big enough, you're not light-skinned enough, you're not intelligent enough, you don't have six packs enough. But by the way, if you buy my product, you'll be fabulous and everybody's going to love you.

There's a very well-funded mechanism out there.

We market to self-hatred. The thing is that people who are at risk are going to be dissatisfied with whatever that is within them. We sell an idea of what virtue perfection is going to be if only you do this one thing. For those who are vulnerable, they chase that.

I find myself frustrated with those folks and not as compassionate, and I should. Part of me wants to go like, this billboard of this person is not an assault to you. I do discount sometimes that there is varying levels of vulnerability. There's part of me that just wants to go like, yeah, there's also cars that are faster than yours. It's not an assault on you.

A hundred %. I think that in an already very, very vulnerable person that then spends a lot of time on social media, TikTok, Instagram, watching these videos over and over, it reinforces the idea of that. I think that for the vast majority The majority of us, you go by that billboard. Now, what I do with the kids on my unit, I say, Okay, show me what your social media apps are. What I want you to do is I want you to open TikTok, Instagram, Snapchat, whatever it is. Tell me how you feel when you consume that social media. If you feel good If you're feeling terrible about yourself, if you feel neutral, carry on. It's not a problem. If you're feeling terrible about yourself, it's like me eating gluten. You're allergic to it. But in the nanny state, we take away not only personal responsibility, but we say dominion over self is not important. I want the person to make that determination that for you, TikTok is okay, but for this other person, it isn't. They are the ones who determine that. I don't want to be the one who says, I'm going to take away all social media.

I can't eliminate all the triggers in the world to satisfy the most triggered among us. It's very defeat us, too, right?

A hundred %. Isn't it better that either you've learned how to deal with it or that you've decided, yeah, I hate seeing my friends at parties all the time where I'm not invited. Okay, well, then you don't have to continue to consume that media if it's making you sick if you're allergic to it. Yeah.

Okay. This is petty for me to bring up, but you would be the person that I could ask this to. I have said committed suicide on here several times, and I've heard in the comments people say, I'm not allowed to say that anymore. You who specializes in committed suicide. I feel like it's a little bit of pandering and pageantry, and I actually think it's just for the people who are advocates and not the people who have done it. I think it's like when people say, I can't say drunks and junkies, which is what we call ourselves. Do you have a take on this? What's this move to not say committed suicide?

Okay, so there's a couple of things. First of all, let me just say that I used to say that all the time. When people died, they died by cancer, by pneumonia, by whatever it is. The problem was that it assigned a certain degree of blame when you used that rather than saying they died by suicide, they died by cancer, they died by pneumonia, they died by whatever it is, rather than committed, like I committed a crime, I walked into your house and I stole your money.

Because you could say my dad committed cancer. He smoked three packs a day.

Well, you know I suppose you could in a certain way, but you wouldn't say it. But you wouldn't. You wouldn't. That's the thing. The other thing is I have this concept of, do I want to be right or do I want to be effective? There's sometimes when maybe I know what I'm saying, but I don't want that to be the disagreement. What's it causes our relationship If what anybody's going to remember about this show was that you said- Committed suicide. Committed suicide, then people are going to say, What a jerk. You didn't understand. Then you may have had 99% really great points. That's not what they're going to remember.

That's a great rebuttal. That's generally the answer for all these things. I know. I'm going to keep saying drunks.

You can, but I want to push back on that, too, because you hate advocates.

When I think they're protecting themselves and not actually the victim.

They're often connected to a victim. There's a reason that people become advocates. Normally, people don't just stand up and become an advocate for something for no reason.

But my gut reason, I hate it. There's an actual hatred of it, which is you're not owning your shame that someone you love did that. You actually don't want the shame for yourself. Yourself, and fuck you. That's where I have a conviction about it. You're trying to protect your own shame, and you shouldn't be feeling shame about this. You're not doing your work.

No, but if someone was talking about alcoholism and they were calling people a bunch of drunks and fuck-ups, I'd be like, no, that's not correct. And I don't feel shame that you're an addict. But I feel a responsibility as someone who knows more about it than the average person to say, actually, that's incorrect. Here's the Here's the dialectic, both of you are right.

There is so much ignorance in the world. Then what happens is we bite into our ignorance and then we spout our ignorance. Then you're just going to continue down that ignorant path. Now, I would be with you if I heard people talking about drunks and junkies, and I just said, Okay, I know one of those guys who's turned his life around and done an incredible service to the world. That when you devalue and diminish somebody into a state that through your ignorance means that they're going to be on Skid row for the rest of their life, you're doing a disservice. If I can have a discussion that's going to open somebody's eyes to another possibility, that's fine. But I think that what happens with a lot of ignorance is that people just have a degree of certainty about a perspective, and then they're not willing to change it. They open their mouths before they open their hearts and their minds.

Well, I'm going to declare right now, I'm happy to drop it. I'll get with the program here.

I'm not going to stop. You might win something, but at what cost? People get lost in that message, and then you'll be labeled as this one-sided person.

Okay, so I don't think I've been reading a book that I wanted to give to more people than this book. I immediately thought of some people that I just know are buried under this self-hatred. People I love dearly. I don't know if it's triggering to receive this book as a kid, but I immediately thought of a couple of people I really want to read it because it's heartbreaking when you love someone and you know they're walking around with this sense of defectiveness and you can't penetrate. But also, I would say this The book is a call to other psychologists, so maybe just love to wrap up with what your hopes are for the book.

If we go back in time, during the COVID pandemic, I wrote the book with a colleague, DBT for Dummies, and it hit number one on Amazon. Not number one in psychology or in therapy, number one on Amazon for three days in a row. It was the number one. We were on a lot of shows and stuff like that. I thought it was a very, very important book. When I proposed this book, because I'd written other books, they were willing to take a chance, but they said, there's no comparison. No one's ever written about this topic. Then they asked me the question, what do you hope from it? I really wanted to speak to people with lived experience to say, you've learned this false truth. By the way, there's a lot of fake news in the world today, a lot of false narrative that many of us believe, but this one is going to destroy your life and is very, very toxic. I said to the publisher originally, I want it to be for everybody, for therapists, for parents. No, it can't be that. You have to pick one lane. That's just the It's the way it works.

First of all, there's no other book on this. Secondly, pick a lane.

Well, we need to know who to market it to.

Exactly right. I said, okay, so we're going to do it for people with lived experience because they're often at the bottom of the pecking order in terms of who gets help. But what happened is that as I started to talk about it, therapists started to say, Would this be helpful to us? I said, Yeah, because A, you'll understand the condition a lot more. Secondly, what I want you to start doing is I want you to start asking the question. In your inventory a free of questions include a question about self. If I say, do you have nightmares? And you say, no, I don't have nightmares. Are you addicted to drugs? No, I'm not addicted to drugs. I'm not going to continue down like, okay, we have to work on your nightmares and your drug use. I don't have a problem with those things. If there is no core self-hatred, then great, let's just move on. But there's kindred ideas like perfectionism, people-pleasing behavior, self-criticism, self-judgment. They are on the way to self-hatred.

Like all things, right? It's a spectrum.

A hundred %. Then I have a questionnaire that I ask all my patients, and I think the therapist could also take that questionnaire. When did it start? How old were you when you first remembered? Who were the teachers? What were the circumstances in which you started to believe this about yourself?

The book is a bit of a workbook. You have provided space in the tools section to explore this on your own. Because I think that's the great sadness I have is that so few people have access to someone like you.

I don't have access to someone like me sometimes. I'm so out there sometimes. Again, I don't want something that could potentially be helpful to a lot of people to remain the exclusive domain of anyone who can just afford best care. You can work on some of these ideas yourself, understand it a little bit better. Then when you go to therapy, maybe say, I do want to explore this.

Well, I think it's an incredible book. I'm so glad you've written it and shined a light on it. It's probably crazy to you how long you were missing it. Yeah.

Not only me, but the world. I just want to say, on the other hand, I think it takes courage also for you and other people who are interested in having this discussion to have me on, because it can also seem like this is so way out there. We can talk about OCD, even if you get it wrong. We can talk about depression and alcoholism, but there's this degree of novelty that hasn't been research, hasn't been well-examined. What happens if it turns out that this whole construct is wrong? But you know what? Even if the book prompts more research, more thinking about it, but more than anything else, to think that somebody who is struggling this feels that they're so burdensome that the only way is out. If one person can read the book and say, I can see myself differently, then we've done something important. I appreciate you guys being part of this journey in helping.

It's a great book. I hate myself, overcome self-loathing, and realize why you're wrong about you. It's out now. I urge everyone to get it. I think a lot of people will relate deeply to the feelings that your patients have. Thank you so much, Blaze. First Blaze I've ever met, and it was a home run.

Was he the first Dax you've ever met?

He is. So hopefully, we'll form stereotypes about Daxes and Blay that'll become self-fulfilling prophecies. All right, well, good luck with everything. Thanks for giving us so much time.

Thank you so much for having me.

Stay tuned for or armchair expert, if you dare.

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather, it was stolen from me.

The Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately, you triumph in finding it again.

I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names, about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the WNDY app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining WNDYRI Plus in the WNDY app or on Apple podcasts. Hey, everyone. It's your girl, Kiki Palmer.

Did you know I host a podcast called Baby, This is Kiki Palmer, and you're not going to believe the conversations I've had. Like, is OnlyFans, OnlyBad? How has dating change in the digital age?

What's the deal with Disney adults?

I talk to John Stamos, the VP, Kamala Hertz, to Jordan Peel, Raven Simone, and yes, the one and only Jamila Jamil. And just wait until you hear our conversation. We talk Twitter drama, bad dates, and then time.

How the hell do you actually get sexy? What the hell does that mean? I know how to be funny. I know how to be like, you know what I'm saying? I don't really know how to be like, and take your-I'm not Robin fucking Givens. It's like, how do people do that?

I've been in this situation too many times and not I've not felt any of those things, the girl eyes, the quiet. I've never been quiet a moment in my fucking life.

Yes.

On Baby, this is Kiki Palmer, no topic is off limits. Follow Baby, This is Kiki Palmer on the WNDRI app or wherever you get your podcast.

You can look for Listen early and ad free right now by joining WNDRI Plus.

Behind the closed doors of government offices and military compounds, there are hidden stories and buried secrets from the darkest corners of history. From covert experiments pushing the boundaries of to operations so secretive they were barely whispered about. Each week on redacted, declassified mysteries, we pull back the curtain on these hidden histories, 100% true and verifiable stories that expose the shadowy underbelly of power war. Consider Operation Paper Club, where former Nazi scientists were brought to America after World War II, not as prisoners, but as assets to advance US intelligence during the Cold War. These aren't just old conspiracy theories. They're thoroughly investigated a accounts that reveal the uncomfortable truths still shaping our world today. The stories are real. The secrets are shocking. Follow redacted, Declassified mysteries on the WNDRI app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to redacted early and ad free right now on WNDYRY Plus.

Stay tuned for the fact check. It's where the party's at. I I just really shit the bed myself on my time management.

Oh, okay. I had got all my workout gear on. I was like, Should I ride my bike today? Sure.

Always a big question.

Big, big question. And I was like, I really need to change this rear end or two. The nozzle popped off. It's still holding air, but I can't risk it. Okay. I'm going to need to repair it. And then just lift. We're going to lift. Got in my outfit. Then I went to... I thought, Well, now I have a little extra time. I got to working on the bicycle. I did the tires. A little more challenging then. There's a lot of challenges. So when I finally got it all done, cleaned up the tools, let's go work out. I looked at my watch, 12: 40. My entire workout had blown by. Yeah. Yeah.

That'll happen.

Got away from me.

That'll happen.

He gets tinkering in the shop. You know, those guys get tinkering in the shop and the time just flies by. Blew right by.

Oh, my Lord.

This Cookie boy likes to tinker.

Yeah, The Cookie Boys do like to tinker.

They'll tinker. Your morning was good? Did time get away from you?

My Internet was out at the beginning of the morning.

Wow. Unacceptable.

I know. And I got a text from AT&T saying so, but I thought it was spam or a trick. I thought it was a trick in a way for them to take all my money. So I didn't click it.

Kristin just dealt with the exact same thing. She started getting tons and tons of emails and text from Spectrum. We're going to shut your cable off, shut off your Internet.

Sure.

And she's like, I don't even think I signed up for the account. I don't think it's in my name or anything. Now there's a big- mystery? There's a huge mystery. So very similar. But the whole time, she's like, this is all a ploy to get my credit card.

Got to be careful. I think they got it.

They did? I think so.

You're never supposed to click on it.

Well, she looked up the actual web address for Spectrum, and it was the right web address.

No, you don't click on it. Still scary. So Yeah. Yeah. Well, I didn't click on it, and I was wrong. That was real.

That was real, and it was just temporary.

Because the internet was out. But then it came back. Oh, wonderful. Then it came back. But I do this, right? I plan my morning or my getting ready to the minute, which is a problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm a busy girl.

Yes, very busy I have a lot to fit in there.

But then the makeup, okay, that's going to take seven minutes, and then it takes seven and a half, and then you add a half minute to each of these line items, and you're late.

Line items. Yeah. Yeah. Business speak. And then you're late. You're PnL, and you realize more losses than profits.

And the ROI is low. It's not good.

It's not a good ROI. I hate all those terms. Then once I learned them, I realized they really are useful. I know. It's annoying, and then I'm the person I hate.

You've become the person you've always hated.

It's almost my full arc as a human, is becoming fully the person I hated. I did a good prank last night.

Oh, my God. Tell me, because I'm into pranks now.

Okay, so as you know, my girlfriend, Kalice, is visiting.

Yes, your little baby friend.

She's seven, Kenny's daughter. I told you about the hike. We had a great hike. We held hands the entire time. I'd love to show you some pictures. Oh, yeah.

She calls Kristen your wife, aunt Kristen. My wife, aunt Kristenristen. Previously Dax's mom.

Dax's mom, which is really sad. But I did discover after we talked, she is calling my sister Delta's grandma. She's great. Stop it. She kept saying, Is Delta gone with her grandma to the movies? When is she going to be done with her grandma at the movies? So now TT is grandma, which is so fun.

Oh, my God. I'm scared for her to give me a name.

At least it's consistent. So if Kristen's my mom and my sister is Delta's grandma, those are their peers, which they are- Of course. In this weird structure.

What if she started calling me, Dax, what about your Indian friend?

No. She's not going to do that. It's more of an age mix up. So anyways, Kaleesi, Delta, Lincoln, Kristin, Kenny, and I went to Cafe 101 last night. We were in a big booth. Kaleesi is so excited. There's older girls. The older girls I've had enough. But I tell them, I try to tell them, what if we went somewhere and there's two older girls? It's really tough being a parent in these situations.

I know.

Because you're really weighing a couple of things. I teach them to be kind and civil. And also They're in their house. Yeah. They have some boundaries. I also want them to have boundaries. I don't know.

I know. I think I may have made a mistake on this front.

Okay. Did you advise them to punch Kalisi?

I did. Okay. No, I told Delta the other day, I did a pop out. I pop out here. I walked by and I decided to go pop into my house. And as I was walking by your friends, I heard you grunt.

I was unloading motorcycles in powerwashing then. And I heard your little voice coming from the woods.

I said, Hi. And you like, jerked around. This is why I'm into pranks now, actually, because it was actually very funny because you got really spoofed.

Well, and you were obscured behind Ficca's, like a row hedges. So you got to watch me react and look stupid for a while, probably. Where is she?

Yeah, it was really funny. Where is she? Come on, God damn it. You said, Who's saying hi? You got into that mode where you were scared.

Protect my family, my property mode.

Yeah, and I said, It's Monica Okay, I'm here. I'm over here by the fence. Monica, your Indian friend. I'm over here by the fence.

Your grandma.

So then you came over, and then Delta came over, and so we were chit-chatting a lot. And she mentioned that there was going to be a young- Young girl.

And Kaleesa's so friendly. She wants to talk- I don't know.

She's so cute.

She's cute and friendly. She really wants to get into it.

But Delta was anticipating being- A little overwhelmed. A little overwhelmed. But really, her ire was towards Lincoln. Okay. She was like, Lincoln shuts the door, and then I have to just play by myself with her. And also she looks at me and she says, Please take care of it. And then I do. And I just, I don't want to I'll do that this time. And I said, Well, that's good. That's Boundaries. So I taught her about it.

But then if you saw a little Kaleesi excited to play with them, you'd be like, Girls, get over it. I can play with this cute little girl. I agree. Lincoln's largely spared because of the age gap. I think that was interesting to see. Anyways, all this is to say we're at dinner, and I love talking to her because I'm just messing with her the whole time. It's exactly how I talk to Lincoln and Delta is there because she's family. She's Kenny's- Yes, of course. She's Kenny says something she doesn't like, so she starts punching Kenny. She's like, he won't stop punching him. He's like, Stop punching me. And I go, Kalisi, I'm going to tell you right now, they throw people out in this restaurant. They have a zero tolerance policy on violence. He's like, no, they won't. And I go, no, they'll throw you right out of here. And what is great is I've developed... Now, without this ever in sight, I've developed a really good relationship with the bus boy. Oh, nice. Okay. I love the dude. We have a great rapport. So I I go, that's it. I'm going to get the manager.

So I got up, and then luckily, he was just standing right around the corner, and I go, oh, perfect. Will you ask that little girl, she's been punching people? And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah. So we come back, and now there's an employee at the restaurant, and he goes, have you been punching people? She was busted. She was so scared. She was about to get thrown out. Then we all started laughing, and then she started laughing. It was great.

She laughed?

Yeah. But I came back with an employee, and he got right into it with her. That is Oh, it was it was glorious.

Oh, I just got mirror neurons, though. I'm back to not liking pranks anymore.

Because you're afraid of getting kicked out of the restaurant. Oh my God.

I would have cried. Then I would have felt bad that I was crying because I would know everyone else felt bad. Yeah, yeah. But I wouldn't be able to help myself. Yeah, yeah.

There's a lot there.

Pranks are tricky.

But it did stop the punching.

Well, that's good.

Okay, so the other thing she and I have going is we were in the hot tub two nights ago, and she's telling me all these different stories. And she tells me about how mean this gymnastics coach is, and he's real mean. And one girl is going to have her water, and he said, Oh, you want some water? And he poured the water on her head.

No, he didn't. She's a liar.

And I go, I'm going to be honest. I don't believe that story. She's like, What? What do you mean you don't believe it? And I go, I trust you and I love you, but at the same time, I just really can't. I don't think I'm able to believe that story. And it became this whole thing about believing that story. Then later, she told me, You know your eyes turn color when you lie. My grandpa told me that. And I go, Yeah, I love your grandpa Joe. He's one of my buddies, but I'm afraid I can't believe that story. She fought me on that for a while. But then in the car on the way to Cafe 101, she was saying, Yeah, my grandpa told me your eyes turn color when you lie. I don't think I believe it anymore.

No, you She made her turn on her grandpa.

That's okay. It's good to be skeptical. You can't believe in cherry tales.

But the reason the grandpa said it is because she's a little liar and she's running around telling lies, and the grandpa's basically saying, Don't you do that? I know.

But just call her a liar. You don't need to make up a whole thing with her eyes. You can't call you?

The little baby's liar.

You can tell kids exactly everything is what my experience is.

No, you do, but not everyone does that. We are having a blast. Although, don't they say that about Hazel? It's like sometimes you're green, sometimes you're blue.

Because sometimes you're in light that makes them look that way, and sometimes you're in light that makes them look the other way. It's very- Wishy-washy?

Yeah. Transient? It's very ephemeral. It changes, it moves, it's amorphous.

Yeah. All to say, your eyes don't turn a different color when you lie. Okay.

This is back to me really wishing I had green eyes since I learned they're the rarest.

Yeah. You already know they were the rarest. Did you need to learn that?

We already talked about this. We already did this. I I knew in my heart of hearts.

But- Haven't you just met the least amount of people with green eyes? That's a great- I'll answer for you. Yes. Well, no. Yes. You've met way more people with blue and brown eyes than green.

Well, brown, yeah. Browns are diamondized. Brown, I don't know.

Here we go around. Also, I love browns. Don't listen to her. Daniel Ricardo's brown eyes? I know. Like a saddlewood.

I know. But it's just you always want... The grass is always greener when your eyes are green. Yeah. Yeah, no. I... Rob, what color your eyes? Brown? Blue. Wow.

See, I don't really know. That was a dangerous question.

Why?

Because people take it so personal if you don't know their eye color. Really? Oh, I hear this all the time. Oh, no, I'm sorry, Rob. Oh, I hear this all the time. This is even one of these, I think, trends about how to out guys for... Another thing guys are terrible at is like, Guys don't know your eye color. This is a test for a guy. What's your mom's eye color? What's your wife's eye color?

Oh, my Yeah.

It's real dangerous. People get very hurt if you don't know what color their eyes are. Do you know what color they're buying?

Blue.

Yeah.

Because I know that because we're talking about it. Because this whole time we were talking about it. I think I thought blue eyes were the rarest. Oh, wow.

I don't know how you thought that.

I like blue eyes the most.

Name three people with green eyes.

Okay, Calleigh. She has green eyes.

Are we Can you explain it fast and loose? No.

Okay.

Let me text her. There's solid green.

Let me text her. Well, what's solid green? Is there such a thing? Calleigh might be mad because now we're back to the thing. I said you have green eyes, right?

She just goes, I'm so hurt. Lose my number. I think she has blue eyes.

She doesn't. Okay. She either has green or hazel. Okay. My friend Gina, green or hazel.

Okay. You're asking me?

No, I'm telling you. These are two people.

Okay, so We're up to two.

All right.

You're currently sitting with two people with blue eyes, so that's already neutralized.

Okay, so evens, evens Stevens.

With the immediate people in your vicinity and all the people in the world, you know, yes, it's evens Steven so far.

What does Kristen have? Blue. Blue. And the kids have blue? Yeah. See, I'm not paying much attention.

You know the kids have blue. They're so prototypical blonde-blue.

I know, but- They're generically blonde. I I don't... People think eyes are the window to the soul. Yeah. And I guess I get... When I look in your eyes, I get it. That's where the human is. Right. But I guess I'm never looking.

You can't see very well, though, in your defense. I don't know that you can even see most people's eyes.

Your eyes are like...

Shit blue.

I don't say that when you know I have brown eyes. It's so insensitive. Yours are like grayish blue.

Yeah, for sure. I would agree with that.

Yeah, which is nice.

Jess has said the nicest thing about my eyes as anyone has ever said. What did he say? He said there's icicles in them. It's very sweet. You know what color my brother's eyes are, right?

What are his eyes? His eyes are probably green.

No, they're red.

That's his hair.

He has brown eyes. Go ahead, test it. You're a bad boyfriend. I'm a much better boyfriend than you are.

Color your eyes, question mark.

He's just going to start crying. He'll get back to you in 30 minutes. Who else should I insult? Exactly. He was like, Should you tell me you don't care about me without telling me you don't care about me? I don't know.

Actually, all the girls in the pod, I'm really trying to think. Who's got what? I don't know.

Yeah.

And the boys, I guess I hate eyes. Yeah.

They're not your thing.

Okay. We have a really important thing to do today.

Oh, we're going to finally do the- It's a quiz. From And the book. What book? The Quasi- Oh, no.

But we should...

Okay. Do it next week.

Tune in next week for...

Us saying we'll do it the following week.

For the green hat. So what quiz is this? Okay, this is highly sensitive person quiz.

Oh, wonderful.

Because this is for Blaze.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

Have you ever gotten a message out of the blue? Maybe you ignore them, or maybe you end up in conversation. Maybe they tell you about an amazing offer. I can really show you how to make some money.

And maybe that gets you into a lot of trouble.

But this isn't a story about people like you, the people receiving these messages. This is a story about the people behind the messages on the other end of the line, thousands of them working in a micro-city built for scammers. From WNDYRI, the makers of Dr. Death and Kill List, comes Scam Factory, a news series about survival at the expense of others. Follow Scam Factory on the WNDYRI app or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to Scam Factory early and ad-free right now by joining WNDYRI Plus in the WNDRI app or on Apple podcast.

Now.

Do you want me to read it?

I always feel bad. You're always administering the quizzes, and I'm happy to do it if you want.

I'd like to do it. Okay. Now, discover your personality. Choose your gender to You are. Male. You find it easy to make new friends. Strongly agree, agree, neutral, disagree, strongly disagree. Strongly agree. You could spend days learning about random things that interest you.

Strongly agree. When others are- You seem to have nothing to do with sensitivity. It's interesting.

When others are upset, you feel upset, too. Oh, yeah, I hate it. Which one? Agree or strongly agree? Strongly agree. You aren't one for backup plans.

Yeah, I'm not going to go strongly. I'll go the next one. Okay.

You stay cool, calm, and collected even when under lots of stress.

Yeah. Which one? Strongly agree. Have you ever seen me losing my shit?

Yeah.

Oh.

Oh my God, yeah.

Oh my God, yeah. Wow, really? Yes.

Oh, wow. Okay.

I just think when the shit's hitting the fan, I'm very calm. Is that not what the question is? You would agree with that.

Yeah.

My car is on fire, and I'm like, Okay, let's get the hood open. I have no... Oh, no. There's no, Oh, no, in me.

Right. When your car is on fire, yeah. Okay. When out and about, you don't really introduce yourself to new people. You prefer to chat with people you already know.

That's true. Even though I can make friends really easy, that's true.

Okay.

But not strongly.

So regs?

Let's go medium.

Neutral or agree? Let's go neutral. Okay. Yeah, because part of your thing is that you like talking to strangers.

It's really weird. I like to talk to either dead strangers or people I know. It's periphery people that people I know know that make me nervous. I understand.

Yeah.

Can you understand? That's weird, isn't it, though? But if I'm at a gas station, I talked, I'm very engaged.

Yeah, you want to learn about them.

Or the server or whatever. I'm like, Yeah, I'm going to ask the Uber driver where they're from. Right. Yeah. But if the Uber driver I remember his friends with Calleigh, I'd be like, Oh, fuck.

Oh, no.

Not her, specifically.

Calleigh's friend is so cool.

But any friend of a friend- Sure.

I know. It feels like you have to be on in a little bit of a different way.

Yeah, We're supposed to connect because we're supposed to...

Yeah, I get it. I'm like a no across the board. I don't want to talk to strangers, and I don't want to talk to- You don't want to talk to friends. No friend. You don't want to talk to your friend. You don't want to talk to your friend. You don't like to talk to your friend. You don't like to start a new project until the first one's finished. Mm-hmm. Agree. Okay. You're a sentimental type of person.

Yeah, I strongly agree. Okay.

You enjoy using lists or schedules.

Neutral.

Okay. Making a small mistake can make you question your knowledge on a subject.

Medium.

Neutral or agree?

Medium, agree. Is that four?

Yeah, agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. You easily spark up a conversation with a stranger.

Oh, five.

You love talking about and analyzing creative works.

Four.

You follow your heart more than your head. That's an interesting one.

Boy, that's a hard one to be objective about. What do you think?

I'm open to your- You follow your heart more than your head.

I think so.

I do I do two.

I do two. Four.

Yeah, so agree regular four. You tend to prefer following a daily routine as opposed to just doing whatever you want.

Yeah, I love a daily routine.

Strongly agree, five. When you meet new people, you worry about whether you made a great first impression. Five. You prefer solo activities over group activities.

Neutral.

You love watching movies that let you interrupt... Oh.

A little projection. No, not projection, just interject. I'm interrupting. You put something in.

What did I say?

Yeah.

I started changing the quiz. Yeah. You love to interrupt. What do you think? Six. You love watching movies that let you interpret the ending yourself. That's a good question. Four. You get more happiness from achieving things yourself than you do from helping others.

Yeah. Terrible quality, but yeah.

Strong. Five. You aren't interested in very many things.

Oh. I strongly disagree.

You often worry about the worst possible scenario in any given situation. Five. You love taking up leadership roles.

Five.

You are an artistic type of person. Four. The world will be better off if people made more decisions with their feelings.

No.

It'd be worse. You strongly disagree?

Yeah, strongly disagree.

Well, you work with your heart.

I know, but I'm allowed to, and no one else is. Okay.

You prefer to relax before getting into chores.

That's weird.

Relax before getting into chores. You don't. I don't. Yeah.

So you're- I like to keep the motor floored or off. So that's a disagree. Okay.

You don't mind when other people are having a heated argument in front of you. Oh, this is interesting.

Yeah. I don't mind. I like it. Is horny an option? Strongly agree.

You like being the center of attention.

Oh, 15. This is like how gross you are quiz.

Your mood is generally pretty stable.

Yeah, I'd say four.

You have plenty of patience for people that aren't as efficient as you.

Zero. No. Strongly.

Yeah, strongly disagree. You're spontaneous.

Five.

You have always been fascinated by the question of what, if anything, happens after death. Neutral. You prefer to be on your own rather than with others.

Neutral.

You love theoretical discussions and can engage in them for days on end. Fifteen. You have a hard time empathizing with who come from a very different lifestyle to your own. Interesting.

I feel like you have a... What would you give me on that?

You have a hard time empathizing people who come from a very different-I also remember where I'm from. I know. Yeah.

I love gay dudes.

I'm going to say something ballsy right now. Okay? I think that has more to do with your contrarianism than it does with your empathy. Wow. I know. And I mean that positively. I think you always want to look at the other side and you don't like a status quo. And in Michigan, there was a status quo about people, and I think it was not empathy that drove you.

But I have an outcast identity, right? So I think it's easy for me to lock into. I don't know. I'm going to go with neutral. Okay. I think I'm more empathetic than the average dog from where I'm from.

Okay.

But also, yeah, a lot of times, I had to definitely become friends with you before I was able to truly understand how hurtful doing an accent.

I wouldn't even use me as it. That's pretty shameful. No, I wouldn't use...

Let's use you.

I actually mean more like, I think currently you can't empathize with a very hyper liberal person. And that is from where they come from, too.

Well, let's see though, is it that I can't empathize? I mean, I think I understand where they're coming from. I think it's going to end in defeat. So I have a real strong objection that I don't think we're ever going to get empowered again unless people have a reckoning.

So neutral.

We're going neutral.

When there's a decision to be made, you want to make it right away.

Yeah.

Four or five. Five. You tend to second guess the decisions you make.

No, I disagree.

Socializing quickly exhausts you.

Socializing quickly?

If you start socializing, are you quickly exhausted? Oh, no.

I'm energized. Strongly disagree.

You enjoy going to art museums. No. Oh, my God. I hate them. Okay. Oh, my God. I went to one recently, and it was lovely. I went by myself.

Oh, where?

This one in Echo Park. And I went to see this awesome artist. Her name is Sophie. I'm already a fan of hers, and she had an exhibit there. So I went, and I got a coffee, and I went myself, and I felt so cultured.

And you really enjoyed looking at the paintings? I did. Yeah.

But there was only like... I was in and out pretty quick.

Okay, well. There weren't that many. I can remember the couple that I've loved. I've loved two. The old Picasso one in the Alley in Barcelona, and then the Van Gogh Museum in Amsterdam. I like walking around the Getty, but it's like I look at the paintings and I feel like Larry David. I'm like, I'm more annoyed that other people are getting some transcendent experience that I might not be. And I'm like, why? What is- I see.

This is a ding, ding, ding for my other fact, which isn't a fact, but is flower poopy. The flower puppy outside the Guggenheim in Bilbao, the Frank Geary designed building. I went there.

Yeah.

Yeah. That came up in this episode. Oh, right. And I went there with Calleigh, and it It was great.

You loved it.

I loved it. Yeah. And I'd like to go back. Yeah. Okay. You struggle to understand what others are feeling. No, I disagree. Disagree. Okay. You like to have a to-do list for each day.

We already answered this. No, I don't. I don't. Regs don't. Regs disagree.

You often feel insecure.

I mean, what year is this question being asked? Now. Rarely.

Disagree?

Yeah, but regs.

You prefer talking to people on the phone over texting or messaging them?

I used to, but not anymore. Disagree. I'd go disagree, regs.

When someone has a different perspective on a subject than you, you genuinely try to understand where they're coming from.

I'd go regs, agree.

I think so. You find that telling the cold, hard truth is more important than being tactful?

Yeah.

Five.

He almost puked.

You're happy to go with the flow when your plans are interrupted.

No, I'm not at all. That's a strong disagree.

Mistakes you made in the past often haunt your mind.

Five.

You feel energized after spending time alone, engaging in solitary activities like reading or reflecting?

Not energized, no. Regs disagree.

Okay. You prefer to rely on your instincts rather than sticking strictly to a set plan or schedule. Five. You often find yourself deeply contemplating the underlying meanings and implications of things rather than focusing solely on the surface details.

Regs, agree?

I think.

That's a neutral for me.

No, I think you- Strongly agree?

Yeah. Okay.

Okay, strongly. When making decisions, you prioritize logic and objective analysis over considering how it might impact others' feelings.

I agree. I would have gone right. I would have had to start. I think we're there.

You often find yourself worrying about potential future outcomes or what could go wrong in a given situation. Five. You often find yourself drawn to new experiences and enjoy exploring unfamiliar places. Strongly agree. You tend to trust your gut feelings and intuition when faced with difficult decisions rather than relying solely on logical analysis.

Neutral. Okay.

You feel a strong sense of empathy towards others and are often affected by their emotions, even if they don't directly involve you.

Well, I'm affected by people's emotions, but you said I'm not empathetic, so I'm going to have to take that. No, I didn't say that. Let's go regs agree.

I didn't say that. Okay. You prefer to have a well-structured plan in place rather than leaving things up to chance or improvisation.

Regs disagree.

Okay. You thrive in dynamic, fast-paced environments and feel invigorated by challenging situations that require quick thinking and adaptability. Fifty-five. When faced with a problem, you're more inclined to seek out practical solutions rather than dwelling on abstract theories or hypothetical scenarios. That's a hard one.

That is. I would go neutral. Okay.

You enjoy engaging in deep, meaningful conversations with others. Yes, I agree. You often find yourself reflecting on past experiences and considering how they've shaped your beliefs and values.

Too much so, yeah.

You're inclined to take charge in group settings, assuming leadership roles and guiding others.

You already ask that. It's achieving. There should be a question like, do you hate being asked the same question twice? Or rather, it would say, you hate being asked the same question twice.

Oh my God. Okay. You feel most comfortable when your environment is organized and structured, and you may feel stressed or unsettled in chaotic or unpredictable situations.

I agree with that, which seems like a contradiction.

I know.

But yes, I keep my room really clean on my side of the thing. I am, yeah, a little bit of a- You prefer spending time with a small group of close friends rather than attending large social gatherings.

Yeah. Four or five?

Five.

When presented with multiple options, you tend to follow your heart and make decisions based on what feels right in the moment.

They're trying to confuse us. They keep asking the same question, but slightly different than you wonder- Yeah, that's how all these are. And they're trying to catch you being inconsistent, and they're about to catch me.

One more time? When presented with multiple options, you tend to follow your heart and make decisions based on what feels right in the moment.

Yeah, I agree with that. Okay.

You enjoy And then there's a whole thing. And then there's a whole thing. And then there's a whole thing. And then there's a whole thing. Often you're exploring new ideas and concepts, often seeking out an opportunity. Okay, yeah. Fine. You find it easy.

We're really trying to piss us off. You find it easy to- What if at the end it said, did this piss you off? And that's the only question that mattered because you're so sensitive.

You find it easy to adapt to changes and plans or unexpected situations? No. Regs, no. Often seeing them as opportunities for growth and learning? No.

I mean, I get there after a long, long time.

A long time later. When working on a project, do you value efficiency and strive to complete tasks quickly and effectively?

Yeah, five.

You often seek out opportunities to challenge yourself and push your limits, whether it's through physical activities or intellectual pursuits. Strongly agree. You prefer to focus on the present moment rather than dwelling on past regrets or worrying about future uncertainties. No.

Regs disagree.

You enjoy engaging in lively debates and discussions, sharing your... Yep. Fine. You have a strong desire for structure and order in your daily life, feeling most at ease when following a clear routine or schedule. This is crazy.

It's getting really crazy.

You tend to be proactive in seeking out new experiences and Embracing change is a natural part of life.

I like new things, but I don't know that I embrace change all that well. So let's go neutral.

Okay. You feel energized and excited by social interactions, often seeking out opportunities to meet new people.

Is there a glitch?

No, but it is different. Often seeking out opportunities to meet new people.

I do do that. Let's go regs. Okay.

When making decisions, you prioritize logical reasoning and objective analysis considering the facts and evidence before reaching a conclusion.

I'd say four. You tend to be highly self-critical and introspective, frequently reflecting on your actions and decisions and striving for self-improvement.

Five. You often find yourself empathizing with others' emotions, even if you haven't experienced the same situation yourself, and strive to offer support and understanding.

I'm not good at that. Let's go with regs.

Regs disagree. You prefer to have a clear plan and direction in life, setting specific goals and working doing diligently to achieve them?

Regs agree.

Okay. What is your current relationship status? Married.

Yeah, but five? What is it?

No, now it's new.

Now we're- Okay.

Married. Married. How long is your current relationship six plus years? How many relationships have you been in? Oh, God. There's zero, one, two, three, four, four plus. Four plus.

Four plus.

Oh, wow. This is personal.

How long is your penis? God.

How satisfied are you with your current relationship? We have dissatisfied, somewhat satisfied, mostly satisfied, very satisfied. Very satisfied. What's your age? Oh, God.

Five hundred. It's not even an option? Oh, my God. I'm too old to take this quiz?

No, it's 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60 plus.

And above. Oh, so I'm...

Okay, there's at least- But it's just weird to say 50s.

Well, that's not even as concerning as I thought it was going to say 50 plus. Right, no. And then the rest of everyone.

Okay, may I submit?

Is he going to ask you for 2. 99? Yes.

Oh, my.

These bastard. What the fuck?

I have to pay it.

I know because we filmed the whole segment.

Oh my God.

What bastard. I am sensitive. Someone made this test up in their fucking basement.

I mean, it is blossom. Co. Oh, what?

That's not confidence-inducing.

But some of their questions were good and repetitive.

Some of their questions were great. And then on the second time, they were good. And then sometimes on the third time, they were no good.

He didn't love it.

How much do I owe you for this? Was it 2. 99?

It was 2. 99.

Are they going to give you unlimited tests?

Oh, you can take more quizzes. Oh, good. Oh, that's fun. Okay. Well, let's find it. Be my result. Show me.

We'll tell you next week.

Oh, no.

Oh, fuck. Another paywall?

No, this just isn't about... This isn't... I have anything to do with sensitivity. You're an ENTJ.

An ear, nose, and throat?

Oh, no. This wasn't even on the highly sensitive person test. Oh my God. What test was this? It was like a... It's called something, and it's a personality test.

Someone's happy right now. Someone has wanted us to take this test, but we don't know No, it's- It's like an enneagram test.

It is, but it's a really common one. You're an EN or an INFG. Hold on.

But it won't tell you the name?

I think it's Myers-Briggs, maybe. Let's see. Entj personality. Dr. Zamboni? It's Stamford Prisman? It's Myers-Briggs. That's the original one. So that's cool. Now you know.

What am I, an ENT?

You're an ENTJ. That's a confident leader. Okay. That tracks. 76% Extroversion.

Okay. I'd agree with that.

Method of processing information, 81% intuition. Entjs are intuitive thinkers, fascinated by possibilities, patterns, and future outcomes. Interesting. Okay. 55 % thinking.

That feels like neutral. That's a push.

Well, because it's either... So it's introversion versus extroversion. That's the I and the E. Intuition versus sensing. Okay. That's your method of processing information, your intuition. Decision making functioning is thinking or feeling. You're thinking, but at 55 %.

Yeah, I'm on the fence.

And then management function is judging or perceiving and you're 61 % judging. Wow. What a left turn. We still don't know if you're highly sensitive. You're right.

We'll have to find that test, and we'll do it when we do the- They tricked me. Straton test from your book. What was that called? Myers-briggs. No, from your book.

Oh, yeah. Green Hats.

Green Hats.

What a mess of a fact check this was. All right.

All right. Goodbye. I love you. Are there any facts? That was it. Oh, great. Yeah. I love you.

I love you.

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