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We spent weeks making our own Orgazmo and showed the boy outfit, it was like one of those situations where I was like, you know, common sense to tell you, like you don't put water on the inside of what you're trying to keep out, you know what I mean? Yeah. And then, as they say, I get up to Albany, bang a left at the canal, and you go all the way to Buffalo. It's orange, black, furry and wiggly, kind of like a demonic maggot.

Good morning, degenerate anglers, and welcome to the podcast that hands out full size, musky plugs on Halloween, not 10 split shot like your cheap ass neighbor. I'm Joe Somali, a Miles Nulty.

And one of us is really excited about it being Halloween tomorrow. Damn right I am. I dig Halloween. And to be really honest, man, like beyond it being so fun because I now have kids, they're the perfect age to get really jacked up on Halloween.

I, I'm not even really sure why I love it so much, but I guess it's it's somehow I always think of it like, like the punk metal holiday for some reason and I don't know.

And I'm also kind of in horror flicks.

But as I think we're going to learn today, Halloween does nothing for you, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah. No, I'm I am not a huge fan.

You know, the final nail in my hatred for Halloween coffin came home mid 20s, late twenties, something like that, after after losing a costume contest. Right. So a buddy of mine and I, we spent weeks, we had this great idea and we spent weeks making our own Orgazmo and Chota boy outfits.

Oh, yeah. Like full on the boy.

Yeah, I was Orgazmo. He was Chota boy. And for those of you who don't know what I'm referring to, you need to go watch the movie Orgazmo right now. Just do it anyway.

Not with not with the child. No, no children at all. Definitely adults only. But like those costumes were on point and we worked our butts off. And then we go to the big costume contest at one of the bars out here.

And we took second place to a group of ladies dressed as scantily clad sheep. And that was it for me. I was up. I'm done with this whole holiday like I tried once.

And what didn't work, I, like you said, scantily clad sheep, because I know what you mean.

Creative.

Oh, man, you are bitter. So bitter. That's a shame. Oh, man.

You know, it's not bitter. Black Reifel coffee. True. And quick reminder that Ben is one hundred percent fueled by black rafel coffee. In fact, we've got so much of it that if you trick or treat at my house, I might stick a few of their instant coffee bags in your plastic pumpkin or give a shot of their extra dark murdered out to your kids just to make bedtime more difficult.

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It's like candy for grown ups, man.

I got to tell you and I also got to tell you, over the last few weeks, we've gotten quite a few notes from you guys asking if we plan to do a Halloween special. And the answer is yes, sort of. I'd say we at least, you know, rubbed enough candy corn behind our ears to give this episode a Halloween essence.

At least that's how I'd put it. And for the record, I was skeptical. All right. I was. I was.

But then Joe got a hold of some historical gems that completely changed my mind. We cannot actually tell you how we came to be in possession of these clips.

But it turns out that in the 80s and 90s, Bill Dance actually tried moonlighting as a horror film actor and he got surprisingly far. Unfortunately, all of Bill's test reads ended up on the cutting room floor. But as you may have already guessed, we got exclusive permission to air them right here for you.

Yes, we do.

And we're going to be peppering those throughout the show. OK, and remember, you heard it here first.

And if you're shaking your head in complete disbelief right now, believe it.

Believe it's real. Believe it. And here's Bill reading for the 1982 classic Poltergeist.

Doing OK? What do you look for, purple and brown, kind of a purple. And keep it bay in one spot. What do you look for in a good vacation ride when you're on a fixed income? So it seems like Bill is a little limited in his in his range.

Anyway, that's one of many exclusive bill dance horror flick wreathes to come.

But let's move on to a very, very special regional report.

Yeah, it is.

We actually have a celebrity on the show today, for real this time, not like the other celebrities we have on the show. Right after we first launched Bent, we got a note from Mike Williams who starred in the little cult classic movie. You might remember The Blair Witch Project. Yeah.

And this is this is a true story. We're not bullshit. And we're not making this up for once, Mike. Yeah, for once, maybe never again. But believe us now. OK, Mike is is the guy standing in the corner of the basement at the end of the movie.

That is Mike Wallace, that that scene still creeps me out. Tomita That was that was well done.

Anyway, turns out Mike lives in New York State and he's a hardcore fly angler. He sent an email to Bent at the Meat Eater Dotcom just to say he was digging a show and, you know, offering to help out. We noodled on that for weeks and came up with nothing. We're like, how are we going to work this into the show?

And we were talking about it with our buddy and colleague, Sam Lundgren, who threw out this great idea. And we were like, yes, that's it. We're doing that.

So so what we did was we asked Mike to list and explain his five favorite trout flies for his local streams.

Is he right? Very easy.

But because we're complete dicks, we said you have to record this information while running through the woods in the pitch dark.

All Blair Witch and I was like, there's no way Mike's guy told you guys.

It's like there's no way Mike's gone for this not to do it. But he was 100 percent in he was all about it.

So here's Mike Williams from The Blair Witch Project, giving you his five top trout flies while legitimately running through the woods at night.

Hey, guys. All right, so for the river system, top Firefly's Krotons up in New York Valley of Westchester. So when you start with a cat, it's a cat. You can't go wrong with any time of year. Brown cat is green. Cat is gray. I don't care what you got to care cat that also got pregnant and I sulpher got to have a sofa for summer to see Jujuy. Definitely something. You know, on top of that I would do like I like Cahill.

I liked him during the summer to be sure of that. And of course there's a you don't care that you don't carry that. Well then you know what you're doing here. I hope this helps. Sightlines. Got to go.

Oh, man, Mike, we thank you for that man, you were such a good sport. Thanks for reaching out. And you guys should follow Mike on the Instagram's.

He's at sipping rises.

Thank you, Mike. And we're sorry, but but not really because that was funny. Moonah It's time to continue the theme of making people uncomfortable, this time with our Smooth Move segment, where we let guides and charter captains bitch about stupid things their clients have done.

Yeah, and we're going to throw it back to what I call the upper deck session a few months ago when I spent a few days at the guide shack in the Catskills with some good friends, including our amigo Marty Yee, who has a story for us today. So frightening it's guaranteed to make you lose control of all your bodily functions.

But before we kick it over to Marty, just to set the mood, here's Bill in The Exorcist.

Which which which which which polls that. Why did you do that? All right, we've got an on location smooth moves, I am sitting in one of my favorite places, the official guide shack of crosscurrent guide service on the upper Delaware River on the New York border, sitting here with our good friend and guide, Marty.

Hi, Marty. How are you? I'm great. How are you? I'm terrific. It's good to see you in person. In person. I feel like our relationship is more digital, is very digital.

It's very text based based relationship. But here we are. We're hanging out and doing some fishing. So why not record a smooth moves, you know? How long have you been a guide, Marty? Remind me.

So I'm relatively new in that sense. This is my fourth year. I'm on my fourth season.

OK, but four years is enough time to see some ridiculous shit. Oh, yeah. I mean, for the amount of days that that we're out, it's yeah. We see a lot of people, a lot of situations, a lot of weird things. Yeah. You guys get a lot of New York City clientele and you see you pull people from all over the place all year. So hit me man. What's the one that sticks out in your mind that's like that?

I just don't believe that shit just happened.

Yeah. So this was actually my first year. I was very new, like very green cherry and maybe would have been like my one of my first trips, really not to think about it. OK, so this guy, a real nice guy, comes up. He's from somewhere downstate and he's someone new to fly fishing. He's trying to get back into it. So we talk and he's like, you know, I don't have waiters. I don't have gear.

No, that's fine. I'm like, I got everything. What size are you perfect? I got my old back up hair you can wear. OK, so it's fine.

Everything's great. We meet up, we're out on the water. We actually have a pretty decent day like for, you know, for my first year guiding it. And he's not a great, you know, at the time wasn't a great thing. Right. Right. But you know, we school I schooled him up, we got on some fish. And then, you know, throughout the day, I always check with people like, hey, do you need to take a leak?

You want to step out your legs? So I realize we're like an hour like six of the day and the guy hasn't taken a piss once. I'm like, OK, I can do that. Yeah, me too. You know, a little bit older and age and I take that into consideration.

So I'm like, dude, you know, do you want me to pull over? Do you want to take a leak? He's like, no, throughout the day I'm good. I'm like, OK, gotta stick a couple more fish, you know, eat lunch, hanging out. Finally again, back to like our six seven. I'm like, all right, so need to pass because I'm going to get out and piss. And he's like, I've been pissing and I laughed.

I was like, oh I was like he was like, oh no.

I've been pissing in the waiters. And I was like, excuse me. He's like, oh, is it not like a wet suit?

I'm like, absolutely no shit.

You know, these are my old I don't remember Foote's or stock. They were they were budwood actually.

So he was just filling his boots. His he sold. Absolutely. And he he thought it was like a wet suit. He thought like, well I don't know, maybe it's a wet tinder dry suit either one. You're not supposed to pee in wetsuits either. I don't know. I'm not I don't dive or anything. But it turns out he just like I'm sure he won a bunch of times and then he felt he felt so bad. But, you know, it was like one of those situations where I was like, you know, common sense to tell you, like, you don't put water on the inside of what you're trying to keep out, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So it turns out the guy ends up buying those.

We're just trying to be quiet and you can't use bladers.

Yeah, that's one of many stories I've had in the last couple of years.

The two that's so gross. It's gross. How uncomfortable is that to fish all day and you just put on your weight?

I'm sure you've had water in your waders. Yeah, exactly. Banned like just getting water down your waders. I know.

Like when I have a leak in my waders instantly, I'm like there's there's a leak in my back and I'm like, I don't want these on anymore waders immediately.

This guy just didn't give a shit. He just pissed. And essentially he was pissing his pants too, because you remember, he was still wearing like, I don't know, whatever pant like shorts or jeans, whatever he was wearing underneath. So he was still urinating, like in his underwear and pants as well as inside of my back of.

You know what? All right, people are going to be all over this guy, like I, I can already hear or imagine the feedback we're going to get and people can be like, what could Adama's PCs and Wieters?

Oh, I can see how this might happen. All right. For folks who know wetsuits, you're supposed to piss in them. That's part of the whale. That's what you do. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Are you. Yes. You weren't supposed to piss in your wet's. You don't piss in dry suits. You do piss in wetsuits. Yes. OK.

In fact, particularly if you're in cold water pits in wetsuits is like what you look forward to because it's a little short of heat all over your body. Right. And so I can imagine someone who's only been in wetsuits and it's the first time in waders might assume that it's the same, you know, let's call it evacuation protocol. All right.

But that said, to how miserable would it be to marinate in your own urine all day to me?

I mean, it's just terrible to me, man. I'm also that dude, like, I get a drop of barbecue sauce on my shirt and I want to change it immediately. So I couldn't I couldn't just like fish in piss filled waders all day. Just icky.

We're going to we're going to stick with the theme of Ikki, which, you know, Halloween Iniki. That's what we got for you. Joe's got a book for us this week. Yes.

Joe can read.

Yes. Yes, he can. It's almost time for frickin Philistines where we choose a book like an actual book with printed words and everything that we feel is worthy of your time and attention.

This one fits the Halloween and horror flick motif. We are entering the world of large predators, which is apparently something Bill Dance knows all about, because here he is in the Predator, something out there waiting for us.

And they know that because not only was he a good. He just looked big then at Walter. But but unlike the somewhat racist depiction of the alien in that movie, The Predator in the book Joe's going to tell us about was actually real and much bigger and better than anyone could imagine. So listen up and get ready to put down your screens and read your frickin Philistines.

Folkston, the guy doesn't care about books or interesting films and things that was lost him.

I have been obsessed with sharks since I was a tiny little kid. When I turned 18, I couldn't run to the tattoo parlor fast enough to get a great white inked on my leg. So it should be no surprise that Jaws is my all time favorite movie and in my opinion, the greatest fishing movie of all time.

But what many people don't realize is that Jaws was inspired by a very real reign of shark terror that occurred along the Jersey coast in the summer of 1916. And Hooper, played by Richard Dreyfuss, even references those attacks in Jaws.

And while it may not be a fishing book, persay, anyone who loves sharks or Jaws or fishing for nasty predator fish really needs to read Michael Capuzzo close to shore. It is the most detailed, beautifully written account of the events that took place that summer. And it's it's by far my favorite work of historical nonfiction.

And Close to shore reads like an adventure novel. And what makes this adventure all the more fascinating is the period of time in which it's taking place.

This was the final summer before the U.S. entered World War One.

Vacationing at the beaches was just really growing in popularity because train lines could carry folks from New York and Philadelphia to the coast pretty quickly.

It was easier to get there. And just as it is now, in modern times, the beach was a safe, happy, carefree environment, which makes the juxtaposition of these brutal attacks much starker.

The first victim, twenty three year old Charles Van Zandt, was attacked on July one, 1916, while his parents watched in sheer horror from the beach. And Van Zandt was swimming with his dog in front of the Ingleside Hotel in Beach Haven, New Jersey. And Capuzzo describes the attack in truly Blood-curdling detail. And Charles was actually rescued and made it to the beach alive. But the shark had just done a number on his leg and it severed his femoral artery.

You know, his father, who was actually a doctor, rushed him to the hotel office, agonizing because they knew they'd never get him to the closest hospital about 20 miles away in time. So they made a makeshift operating table out of the office door.

But despite their best efforts and with limited supplies, Charles died of shock and massive hemorrhaging at the hotel.

Now, the passage that follows Charles death really sets the tone for the rest of the book. And you can see just how closely it mirrors the plotline of Jaws. That evening, a hush fell over the Ingleside dining room.

But after dinner, hotel guests cornered fishermen in Beyman and other Wisen veterans of the shore who drifted on and off the veranda all night long.

The red trails of pipes and cigars waved in the night, and the number of people who had witnessed the attacks seemed to grow. By the hour, Robert Engle tried to remain stoic and calm as reporters from Philadelphia newspapers scuttled about the lobby and veranda, questioning his guests. Disagreements and arguments broke out until finally a consensus emerged of suspects in young Van Zandt death. A giant tuna, a shark, but most likely a giant sea turtle, which had the power, the fishermen said, to snap.

A man in half, the attending physician had a different opinion.

He recorded the primary cause of death on Vincent's death certificate as hemorrhage from femoral artery left side with a contributory cause being bitten by a shark while bathing. It was the first time a shark bite had appeared as an official cause of death in U.S. history. Seeking to reassure his guests, Engle stood and declared bathers had nothing to worry about. The next morning, the hotel would erect a netting around the beach strong enough to block German U boats. Swimming in the clear paradisal waters of the Ingleside would go on, as usual.

But a somber mood pervaded the Ingleside that evening as one by one, the hundreds of room lights that cast out over the shore winked out. A new and nameless fear had seized the guests, a fear, the unknown, as well as a fear of the sea.

Even those who watched the attack had little notion of what they had witnessed except to agree. As W.K. Barclay told whoever would listen. Mr. Van Zandt, death was the most horrible thing I ever saw. That scene sets the tone for the entire rest of the book.

And, of course. More attacks followed after Van Zandt, which set off a media frenzy and hysteria that ultimately led to shark hunts coast wide with everything from rifles to nets to dynamite to baiting hooks with cow lungs. And interestingly, and while I don't want to give too much of the ending away, the culprit remains a mystery and is still debated to this day.

Was it a white shark or was it a bull shark? And Capuzzo does a terrific job of breaking down all sides of the argument.

Towards the end of the story. But the most important takeaway from close to shore is that without these attacks from 1916, there probably would have been no jaws.

These events single handedly created the mindset that sharks are vicious killers that need to be feared, which sadly still persist today with many people, despite time and science debunking the idea that sharks are ferocious manhunters.

Now that your blood is fully curdled, let's shift from a history lesson to current events.

It's time for fresh news, Bishnu. That escalated quickly, so here we go, this is the part of the show where we fill you guys in on the most pertinent fish or fishing related news we think you good people need to know about.

Or in some cases, we just give you whatever we could find this week that somehow loosely connects to the overriding theme of fishing that we try to maintain. As a reminder, this is a competition. At the end of news, our tremendously talented and rather good looking audio engineer Phil will declare a news winner.

And I got to say, like, we don't we don't take this lightly, you know what I mean? I'm scared like this. It's every week.

It's like stepping into a cage match. And, well, while I may be heavier, Miles is faster and more nimble and Phil has great hair.

Let me just point that out.

But, you know, this takes bravery. People similar, I'd imagine, to the bravery that Bill Dance had to muster when he encountered Jason Voorhees for the first time in Friday the 13th, Part eight. Jason takes Manhattan. And do we have a clip of that lined up, Phil? I believe we do. Here's what that sounded like.

What are you going to do, Buster, if you want to do? Huh, to show off a little. So I think I think Miles is about to show off a little bit. How do you because.

Because how do you follow Bill Dance doing that? I don't know.

But you're the lead off man, which means you get to the first machete thrust to the shoulder. So, yeah, I get it.

I get a recentre here. Hmm.

So, OK, despite my admitted disdain for Halloween, I'm leading off with kind of a little like a sort of spooky story. Oh, OK.

Start off Phish News this week. Current. Dan Buji was fishing an undisclosed location near Paris, Tennessee, recently, which is just a nice way of him saying that he doesn't want all you jerk nuts coming to his fishing hole.

But considering what happened to him, I don't know that I would fish the spot even if he had named it or I did live within driving distance of Paris, Tennessee, anyway. Dan was fishing a jointed crank bait from shore when he hooked into a respectable little largemouth bass.

Nothing to crow about. Nothing. Nothing is going to win any contest, but not a dink. A decent bass into nice everyday bass. Yeah.

Anyway, Dan brings in his bass and as he goes to remove the hook, he sees the head of a live and writhing snake looking up at him from inside the bass mouth.

OK, all right. From the look of the photo that Dan posted, I'm guessing he freaked out at that point and then just like dropped the fish, which is like a totally understandable reaction. But I say that because in the shot, both the bass and the Craig bait are just covered in dirt and there's like like fallen leaves, like stuck to the back of the bass. Dude, it's a classic dart shot. You see, like people grip and grin on Instagram and it's like the fish is just covered in leaves.

It's like an hi. I'm like, that's like a pet peeve of mine, dunked the damn thing back in the water for a second. But in this case, I think it's totally valid. Like normally I hate on the dirt shot. But this one I'm not scolding him, scolding all the other people that are like that this weekend. I'm like, it's a pile of dirt and leaves.

Oh, but like, what do you look at the picture? I get it again because you don't notice the dirt fish. What you notice is the snake front and center sticking out of the Bass's gullet and supposedly writhing around inside of its mouth.

But good news for Dan. The fish was hooked on the outside of the jaw, which you can also clearly see in the photo. The front treble is hooked on the outside of the fish's mandible. So he was able to retrieve his lure without ever putting his fingers into striking distance. Because, again, this fish, the snake, rather, was alive at this point. Right. Even even better news for Dan and the bass, the snake was identified as a northern water snake, not the more dangerous water moccasin which share habitat in range and look pretty similar.

But, you know, like you don't know in that moment. Well, like, you have no idea.

And what water states can grow over four feet long. They're not poisonous. So Dan was never in any real danger. But again, like I said, he didn't know that at the time. Dan told a local reporter, quote, I'm new to Tennessee, so I'm not real familiar with the look of venomous species here, then successfully released the bass after snapping those those photos.

So the only real loser in this story is the snake, who was, I mean, assumedly digested by the bass after it got let go. Well, I could go way off on a water snake misidentified as a poisonous snake story that my mom ended up having to kill with a shovel, but that would take too long.

That would take too long. So I'm going to tack on a few more things. One, I've been to Paris, Tennessee, and it's like the catfish capital of Tennessee or something like that.

But I was there. I was hanging out on the property of Hank Williams Jr. with Hank three. And I caught a bunch of croppies out of out of Hank Williams pond before he kicked us off the property.

That's another story I don't have time for right now.

But I think the overriding thing here that I take away from this the most, that's what I was wondering. What kind of snake is it? That's a big question. But besides that, how many times over the years have you seen somebody? It's actually pretty recently trying to push a snake, lure savage geese. Oh, you believe it was only a couple of years ago at that I cast their big release.

And of course, they're the ones that are always like making the bats and the baby panda and their big thing was a snake.

And even way before that, I've got old soft plastics in the garage. I don't even remember what companies, but they're they're like molded garter snakes. And they absolutely. Then these people that, like, really try and push that as a food source, like like you need to be doing snake.

Same test in the snake pit. Yeah. Same time, dude, how many hundreds of thousands of snakes have I watched swim across ponds and ditches and I have never seen one get eaten. So I mean I know it happens, but that's every time I see the snake in the fish mouth thing. That's what I think, is that there are actually people out there trying to promote that and tell you, like, you got to use more snake. They eat these things all the time.

They do this all the time. And I'm not so convinced. I think it's like duck nose.

I think it's pretty rare, but it happens occasionally. There's a great video out there somewhere of someone doing a homemade snake bait like rattlesnake bait and getting giant rainbow trout on one.

But just because it has happened and someone caught on camera doesn't mean that it's the thing that you should be chasing for your bite. That's what I'll say.

I the reason that I gravitated to the story was really just like Dan was such a relatable character to me, is like, I don't know what just happened, but I got a pass and there's a snake head sticking out and is looking at me and I didn't know what to do. And so really, for me, the the reason what sold me on this story was Dan. So thank you, Dan. I feel like you're someone I could hang out with.

I feel the same way. I love Dan. I love the story. And it's kind of like a little theme as of late because I did not grab this is a news story, but there's also the one going around and the dude is just chafing on that alligator. But it's coming up out of dark water. He doesn't know what it is. He's just crank it on the side of the boat. And like he even all of a sudden that head pops up.

So there's been like some some fishing reptile things, things happening just in time for Halloween. Just in time for Halloween.

If you're familiar with first light, you know, they make the best clothes for hunting period, but what you might not know is that us anglers love our first light gear as well.

It's true. It's true. I wear the wick hoodie pretty much all year when I'm fishing, like full season, it's replaced. All those synthetic sun shirts I used to wear keeps the sun off me. I don't overheated it and it's much softer and more comfortable than than that standard Soniat. Plus, in cold weather, it makes an excellent and breathable bass layer. Yeah.

And the same performance clothing system that keeps you warm when you're sitting in a tree stand works great if you're out ice fishing or chasing steelhead run. Plus they offer solid colors in case you're not that dude who just casually wears camo.

Or if you're like me and you like to hunt and fish, you can pick up a set of solid outdoor clothing that works for either pursuit. I recommend the new Spectre camo pattern, especially if you're a white tailed guy, whether you're in a hunting, fishing or both, first light will keep you comfy in the field.

Head over to first light dotcom and get yourself kitted out so you can keep fishing no matter what the weather does.

I don't have a Halloween tie here, I have to go history lesson, but I know you're going to like this story.

This one comes to us from Discover magazine dotcom headline How Old Family Fishing Photos Unlock the History of Atlantic Fisheries.

Damn. Oh, it happened to me, so I just jacked your shit, didn't I? You just jacked my shit, man.

I it was going to happen sooner or later.

Oh man. You just got me. But I guarantee that I have a whole whole sidebar of this that you didn't cover, so I'll just follow you up. You go right on ahead. Oh, man.

Well, history just got made for us. There's a history lesson. History just got made. You're listening to it right now. The first the first news clash. Where is this the story that you thought I would grab? No, I thought you were going to get the snake past one.

That's why I know that one is safe from this.

That's that's more of a me story. And I didn't even see that one. Well, I have to continue. We're where the clock is running, my friend.

Go. Anyway, this story centers around Rusty Hudson, which is a bad ass name. I got to sneak that in there. Rusty Hudson, very cool name.

Anyway, Rusty grew up in Daytona Beach, Florida, and he's been in the fishing industry his whole life, starting at age nine. He was the bait boy on his grandfather's charter boat whose name happened to be Captain Jake Stone.

Also a halibut name. Just an observation like, is this a real family?

No, the hawk. There's just a bunch of badasses. Yeah. Yeah. Are they a real family or characters from Roadhouse? I'm really not sure. But I digress.

They're so Rusty worked on family fishing boats all through the 60s, and one of his many jobs as a young man was taking photos of the clients with their catch. At the end of the day, add up all those years and it's a ton of photos. Right. And here's where it gets interesting from the story. Years later, the historic photos are providing more than just memories of a fun day fishing on the water. Hudson realized how valuable his family photos could be in recreating the ketch from the 1940s through 70s, a time before scientific monitoring programs collected data on recreational and for higher fisheries.

And he says, I felt the for hire.

Pictures of the past could illustrate the range of fishing conditions and catches to fisheries scientists and managers.

And Hudson says knowing more about the fisheries in the past can help us all better understand the health of fish populations today. And this notion ultimately led to the creation of the fishery project.

And the story says it started after Rusty took part in a stock assessment for red snapper in the South Atlantic. And during that time, he showed scientists in the program these hundreds of historic photos he had. And that kind of kick started the discussion.

But it takes a lot of manpower and a lot of time to analyze all these photos.

It's a huge job. So there is a big group out there. Some of you may have heard of it, South Atlantic Fishery Management Council. And those folks are responsible for the conservation and management of fisheries in federal waters from North Carolina through the Florida Keys. And they created something called the Citizen Science Program, and that works with fishermen, scientists and managers to create citizen science projects that align with SAFM research needs. So this citizen science program teamed up with Hudson and NOAA fisheries scientists to create a project to work with volunteers, what they're calling citizen scientist.

And they are the ones that are now analyzing all of these historic photos.

So fisheries, all online based volunteer program, anyone of any skill level can can join the fun, because even if you know a little about fish, they have programs within the program to, you know, teach you how to identify all the different species and they identify and count them. Each photo is analyzed by more than one volunteer. If there's a big discrepancy, it gets kicked up to experts. And I think it's the part where we're going to since now I know we have the same story.

Like I think the follow up to this we may differ on. But but Hudson calls this a dream come true and believes the analyzing of these photos can can inform future science. And to be clear, this only started last May. So it's right now it's only Hudson's hundreds of photos that are being analyzed. But there are over fourteen hundred volunteers. They've made over twenty five thousand classifications. There are still hundreds of photos to analyze. And if this works, then the team hopes to expand it to collect photos from other fishermen and stakeholders all across the South Atlantic.

Now, on the surface, I think this is super cool and bravo on the idea. And I think we both I mean, I just love looking at old fishing photos. Absolutely. No. So this is great.

And I feel like kind of a jerk. Kind of. But I got to say that I also think this is flawed a bit, and I'm not entirely certain this is as valuable as as Rusty hopes.

But before I go on, since since I know we've crossed over, I'm going to let you jump in, like, what are your thoughts on the whole thing?

So I had a different lead to this because I think you missed some of the historical context on this one. OK, and that's where I think this actually becomes valuable and interesting.

Right. And I think I think I think we need to start by saying, like, we like a good grip and grin photo. As much as anyone else, right? We except maybe Ladds V, we like a good grip and grin photo as much as anybody you might meet. But in fact, in fact, just this little heads up here, we've got a whole segment devoted to grip and grins that's going to come up after news. But like, I love the idea that the grip and grin photos have the potential to to do actual good in the world.

So that's that's the first part of the story that I appreciate is like finding something. Yes. Substantively good about grip and grin because people love to hate on them so much. And this is a way of being like, oh, you hate group immigrants. Look at this science. Yep.

Also, I love citizen science. It's something I'm really big on. But there's some there's some history here that I think is really important. And so give me a chance to set up where I think I might maybe be able to change your mind about the validity of this. OK, what do you want to hear?

Like the end of my argument before before you were duking it out. What's up? W w you can do today we all just say and again, if I miss something, shame on me.

But the thing is like I feel like this works because you've got this guy that's got hundreds of photos from the same docks, from the same area for all those years.

But that's not an easy thing to find elsewhere. It's not easy to find a vast collection of fish photos from a given area over this massive date range, which I feel like if you're actually going to pull any useful data from a study like this, you need to have what he has. And in my mind, it's also like we already we know stocks are declining. We know that that's a given. But if you had, like captain's log data on sea temps for all those years, weather patterns, how much bait they were seeing.

OK, but I don't know.

I read it as they're just hidding and counting fish for the most part, because what else do they get out of a photo? And, you know, Rusty had said these photos help capture a range of fishing conditions.

How like, am I missing something? Yeah.

So here's this isn't the first time this has been done. And this is this is where I think this is what I where I see the value in this. OK, so let me let me start with a little bit of background. The term shifting baseline syndrome was coined to describe humans general inability to measure long term changes in our natural environment. Right. Because because individuals only live for a short period of time in comparison to the life of a species, it's very difficult for us to accurately assess long term changes in the world around us.

Right. Whatever you experienced throughout your life dictates your baseline for normal. But that baseline resets are shifts with the next generation. Right?

So like when when when you're like, hey, grandma had a great I had a great day to day. I got like six trevillian to pufferfish and a barracuda. And Grandma was like, that's not great, dad. It's terrible when I was your age to do that an hour and they're all bigger than the ones you got.

And now I know too many grandmas who I talk to because they're like, oh, you had a good day.

Yeah. You think that was a good day? I'll tell you what a good day. And and the thing is, in that case, you're both right. It's just that concepts of good or pristine, they get reset generationally. And that's where we get this idea of the shifting baseline syndrome. And that's become a central tenet across the natural sciences. Right. Researchers recognize that that our planet and the populations of plants and animals that live here have changed dramatically in the past hundred and fifty years.

But we as individuals don't generally notice those changes because they they happen too slowly. And this concept is a big deal these days. And a lot of our listeners have probably heard of it. But the thing is, what we're talking about right now with Rusty, this has happened before. Fishing played a major part in people coming up with the idea of the shifting baseline theory. It was originally put forth by a fisheries biologist named Daniel Pauly. Back in 1995, Polly proposed that our fish stocks had declined far more than the research was able to recognize and that we needed to look at or that scientists needed to look at anecdotal historical evidence to really understand how much things have changed by anecdotal historical evidence.

He was proposing that scientists need to put stock in things that they traditionally ignored. Right. We don't have the the scientific measured data going back that far and all these things to people, people we're looking at. So we got to use what we have. And in this case, it's like stories from old timers and photographs and like he even proposed using old menus. And so one of the the seminal follow up papers on this theory is called Documenting the loss of large trophy fish in the Florida Keys.

Through historical photographs, its author, Lauren McClenaghan, proposed that, quote, Historical photographs provide visual and quantitative evidence of changes in mean individual fish size and species composition for groups of marine fish that have been targeted by sportfishing. So he looked at Key West Bragge board charter photos from 1956 to twenty seven, and what he found was was pretty damn shocking. Mean fish size declined by over 88 percent. And the charters went from catching lots of large predators like big groupers and sharks to primarily small snappers.

So this is all like what you're talking about, this new project that's being proposed. This has happened before. They're just scaling it up and trying to leverage what some other researchers have done through citizen science into a bigger project. And I think that is damn cool like this is this is not new research theory. They're just growing it.

OK, so I'll just jump in first.

I apologize because this should have been your story because you said much more smarter things about it than I did.

You did far more research. You've informed the listener far more than I ever could.

And I'd like to go on record right now and say, Phil, if this was the Swayze story for a winner, I'd like you to please attribute this story to Miles, because you just said some really smart shit that just made me feel real dumb and I have to live with that.

But there was our first there was our first crossover. I felt like a winner because it was my turn. And you have made me the loser. So good.

Good on you. Well, I will I I'll take that. I appreciate that. And I just want to throw one more thing in here at the end, because I do think this is very cool. And like I said, I'm a huge proponent of citizen science. If you guys are interested in getting involved, you should go to sci starter dawg. That's S.I Starter Dog and enter Fish Story into the keyword search. And yeah, I just think it's a great project and I really hope it's successful because I'd love to see it implemented elsewhere and go into fisheries that I know something about because I would totally get involved.

Now, see, I didn't even bother with the link because I was like, this is this dumb shit.

I feel awful right now. I ruined my afternoon. Damn it. What's your next story? Let's get away from this, because that was my second story.

It's you're closing it out, dude. Oh, so we've. Oh, so it's a weird thing today. Oh man. So maybe that story's now a wash and Phil just has to go on your first story and my last story.

I disagree with the which case, in which case congratulations. Because this ain't touching Bason snakes though. I do. I do. I do find it interesting. I think this is worth noting. Interesting little tidbit here from my neck of the woods and fitting since we just had Ray Liotta on talking New York.

Salman, he's smiling about this because it's directly helping his tackle business. And this actually comes directly from New York dot gov headline on this one. Governor Cuomo announces his program to extend fishing season and improve renowned angling experience in western New York. And here's what it says. Governor Andrew Cuomo announced the start of a new pilot program as part of the Reimagine the Canals initiative that uses water from the Erie Canal to enhance already renowned fishing opportunities in western New York.

This was originally announced as part of the governor's State of the State address in January 2020. The program will encourage New Yorkers and visitors to experience the state's canal system in a different way, while also expanding tourism and bolstering small business in the region.

So to back up a little bit, I'm betting most of you, at least a good chunk of you have heard of the Erie Canal, at least right now.

I think it was a song about I think it's the same think it was a song about it. Somebody wrote it anyway over the Great Lakes.

Anyway, the Erie Canal runs from Albany to Buffalo.

It was completed in 1825. And for the non history folk back in the day, right. That was the super highway of the country or the East Coast, getting goods from the Atlantic Ocean to the Great Lakes. You'd go from the ocean up the Hudson River past New York City to Albany. And then, as they say, I get up to Albany, bang a left at the canal, bang a left at the canal, and you go all the way to Buffalo.

So extremely, extremely, historically significant. But honestly, now it's just kind of sitting there doing nothing.

Right? Like, I read the little bit of cargo still transported on it time to time. But it's mostly just considered a heritage historic thing, you know, take a boat ride, get an ice cream and so on.

But for years, New York's been trying to figure out how to use the canal to attract more tourists, which I don't think has been super easy.

OK, it's not that riveting of a thing. It's just, you know, it's just a straight line of of kind of stagnant water.

But then meanwhile, you've got all these tributaries of Lake Ontario that see runs of steelhead and salmon and browns which boost the economy because so many anglers come to chase them. So here's what Cuomo says. This fall in New York is enhancing some of our World-Class fisheries and expanding opportunities for anglers into December by creatively using water from the Erie Canal to bolster fishing conditions and extend the season. And he says, as a fisherman, which I got to tell you, I don't live in New York, but I've been watching a lot of Cuomo over the last few years.

Yeah, like you can't get away from from Cuomo out here on the television.

Don't see him as a fisherman. Yeah, you can't. Yeah.

You're Cuomo in Montana. Yeah, I don't I'd love to know what kind of fisherman he is. I don't see him fishing.

But he says, I'm pleased to see our incredible Lake Ontario tributaries will be host to even better experience for anglers, this innovative use of iconic infrastructure continues our strong tradition of eco tourism while supporting our small businesses. And and it goes on here. The New York State Canal Corporation says by increasing the levels and flows in streams, it will encourage fish to travel further upstream, which expands areas for ideal fishing conditions. In addition, the Canal Corporation will extend the annual draining of the canal in western New York to create a longer season for anglers.

So I think this is cool and smart, right? Because while there are a few tail waters in the mix out here, most of these trips are rain and groundwater reliant. Right. So this really could extend the amount of time that they're holding fish and dare I say, maybe spread people out a bit, maybe just a little bit.

It's probably asking a lot. And I don't know, it could be wishful thinking, but it's a smart economic move. And the story actually says the canal has provided a bit of a lifeline in the covid economy because it's essentially stimulating the outdoor economy for a few extra months. A lot of these rivers, you know, by the end of the fall and in November, there's there's just not enough water in them anymore for the fish to run or it's over.

So they're giving businesses tied to fishing at motels or restaurants, tackle shops a few extra months. And I just found it refreshing because you hear so many stories about resources being fought for and withheld that I just feel like it's nice to hear one where it's like you guys need this water. Let's all have harmony here.

Here you go. Yeah, no, that's a great story. My question on the follow up, I've got a couple, but the first one is having more water. Do you think there's a chance that that will boost recruitment like those fish are running up there to spawn? Right. And if those those trips end up getting dewatered, postponed, I would imagine that some of those those reds go dry or the Charleston levels go down. Is it possible that this would even increase the recruitment of those age classes and help the population more broadly, not just extend the season?

It certainly could, but then you have to keep up with it, right. And here's the reality of these streams. There's certain ones that were sort of preprogrammed to have these runs, the big streams where this was a state program. But you have all these other streams that come into Ontario and just sort of by default, you know, a couple steelhead go wayward, a couple seconds go. And they established these tribes that were not necessarily originally stocked to create a run.

So then you have, you know, a lot of these these fisheries that are in flux. It's like one year I'm making up the Sandy Creek, whatever it's like did it was bang and last year and it might not happen again for three years, all based on conditions. So if this works and really does what they think and shows a little boost and gets angler numbers up and stimulates the economy, whatever, if this is something they're willing to do year over year to extend that flow based on the Erie Canal, it's just sitting there.

Hell, yeah, it could create. Much better fischeri long term in a lot of these tribes that are just sort of hit or miss. That's that is it. That is a really good feel good story, and particularly taking something that has been used for commerce and other industries is no longer being needed and transition that over to helping fisheries.

I love that. I love that story. It's a simple piece, but it's a good one. It's a feel good, feel good piece. So now all the people fishing for the fake steelhead. That's a win for them.

You know what I'm saying is in the sense and you know what, Joe, from I think I sent you a link about this recently, there are some really, really terrible and awkward grip and grin photos that come out of those fisheries every year.

Aren't there a lot of the a lot of the art of those photos is positioning yourself in a way to make it appear as if you are the only one there? So every time I see Grip and grins out of the Ontario and Erie trips and it's like just dude, like majestically by himself, I'm like, how did you have to move around and get the twenty five other people out of the photo. Yeah.

We here at, at, at Bent we are big fans of the awkward fishing photo as a genre. Yeah.

I just took one beating in news and now I'm going to take another one.

Go ahead, tell them what we're doing after Phil. I just want all of you to enjoy the next few minutes as we lavish praise and derision upon Young Joe in our new segment, Awkward Moments in Angley.

What's the deal, guys?

Isn't this the Halloween special wanted some more spook in your stories, like some sort of serial killer fish who kills teenage fish for spawning at fish summer camp or something? Myles's domination. In your shared story aside, he's also the only one who brought a semi freaky story with the snake inside the fish, which is why I am crowning Miles Nolte, the bent king of Halloween.

Congrats, Miles, I know how important Halloween is to you and how much you love it. This must be a very special moment in your life. Don't eat too much candy now. We have a brand spanking new segment that we're rolling out for you today. Fishing pictures can be hilariously bad, and that makes sense, you know, there's always a camera around or usually the photos are often rushed because someone's holding a slipperiest fish that has no interest in getting its picture taken.

And the person in the photo is often less concerned about how they look than how the fish they're holding looks. All these factors conspire to consistently create truly awkward imagery. We decided we wanted to have some fun with this genre of bad photography in what we're calling awkward moments in angling.

Why don't you take a picture of a longer.

All right. So and I'm laughing, having not said anything because I am about to be victim number one. But that's OK.

I've gained it won't hurt too much. All right. So here's how it works. We're going to take an awkward fishing photo and describe it for you. Will also probably make some jokes at the expense of the subject of the photo. Maybe the photographer as well, who knows? And we reserve the right to invent a completely fictitious back story if we're so inclined. If you want to see the actual photos were describing, you can find them on our Instagram pages.

That's at Joe Somali one thirty eight and at Watermills.

In order to be fair about this, we're going to start with our own photos. Joe and I will each take a stab at burning photos from each other's past, but that's going to get boring quick and we'd like to deepen our pool of options.

So if you have an awkward fishing photo that you'd like to have mercilessly heckled on a podcast, please send it to Bente at the Meat Eater Dotcom. If we choose your photo, you will get a sweet thank you gift from us that will make both of your friends jealous.

All right. So for this first episode, Joe's mom, who is a very nice and patient woman, for the record, sent a couple photos of Joe from the early 90s. And even though this segment has just started, I'm already going to break the rules because instead of choosing just one photo, I'm going to describe them both. I did.

So you said we can't keep using ourselves because it'll get boring. I actually could provide enough photos for like months of this, but, like, I'm giving you one shot, so. Yeah, that's right.

And I'm making the most of it with both photos. So you ready? Yes. OK, so in this first photo, we see eight year old Joe and maybe some of you would first notice the very small bluegill he's hoisting out in front of him.

It's still hook to the line, dangling about 18 inches under a classic red and white bobber.

But not me. Know, the first thing that jumps out to me in this picture is apparel.

So is it the idyllic Mickey Mouse Club hat that's cocked jauntily on his head? No. Is it the generic T-shirt he's wearing that's either printed with boilerplate fishing art or maybe Voltron because the lady makes it difficult to distinguish?

No, not that either. The clothing choice that really jumps off this photo for me is the blue, nightmarish modern art vomitus imprint on Little Joe's Zumba pants.

Zubaz, get it right, zubaz Sarbaz Little Joe zubaz pants.

Now, for those of you who don't know Zubaz because you either missed or blocked out the early 90s, here's the best description for them that I've ever heard.

Brought to you by the Gothamist quote, Zubaz are basically a sweatpants chef, pants, hammer, pants hybrid featuring an elastic waist and an oversized leg that gradually tapers as it nears the ankle. They were very popular amongst the Joey Buttafuoco set in the early 90s, end quote.

They still make his pants.

For the record, you could still buy do, but I might be wearing them now.

You don't know. I thankfully get. What's so great about this whole outfit is the cognitive dissonance between the Mouseketeer hat and the Joey Buttafuoco pants. I feel like we're seeing a picture of Little Joe in transition at the top of his head. He's wearing an almost two on the nose symbol of American youthful innocence while down south, he's rocking pants better affiliated with sexually predacious Long Island Guido's.

And that leads us to the second photo from a year later.

This shot, which appears to be taken on the same wooden duck overhanging the same neighborhood lake shows just how far young Joe has come. Joe really seems to be embracing the New Jersey Italian American stereotype. His sleeveless baggy t shirt glows a color that can. Only be described as electric, and he's also clearly growing into his identity as a serious angler that Mickey Mouse had gone now. Joe's rocking a white foam trucker hat with the word shark stenciled in black above a drawing of a great white shark.

His new hat comes with a couple other upgrades. It's got the ubiquitous gold fishhook bill clipped, glinting in the sunlight and a silver tarp and pin hovering just above the R in shark. Finally, although Joe is holding an identically sized micro bluegill in each picture, we can see how far he's progressed by his facial expressions. While in the first photo, his face is clearly splitting with pride and elation at the fish he just caught his countenance in the second photo makes it clear that he now knows this fish's size isn't worthy of photographic enshrinement.

He's probably just posing with it to placate his mom.

And finally, in the background of the second photo, we have perhaps my favorite detail, a city pigeon creeping up the dock from behind, eyeing the fish like an oversized pretzel and scheming on how he's going to steal that bluegill out of this little kids hand.

OK, you done that at that end of rant?

Because now I have to tee up because I just have a few things of points of clarification.

The Mickey Mouse and the look the listeners are going to get to defend themselves. Go ahead. Oh, no, no, no, no.

This is a special case because it's me. The Mickey Mouse hat was authentic, purchased at Disney. OK, it looks it. Yeah. And the shark hat with the tarp and hand tarp and I remember was the fish I aspired to catch. I was enamored with TARP and even though I didn't know where they were or where they lived at the time.

But the thing you missed, which is an easy one to mess in the the year later photo, they cut off teeshirt salmon colored photo.

So I'm also wearing a freestyle watch. Remember freestyle watches?

I did see that actually. And I decided that I was I was already going too long winded and I decided I'd let the watch go, but. Yeah. Was it a swatch? No, no, no.

Freestyle was the brand and I liked it because the freestyle logo was a little shark fin. Do you remember this?

Oh, I told you. Yeah, I absolutely remember that. Yep.

Yep, I do. Anyway, I'm going to play by the rules and I will put both of these photos on my Instagram.

And all I will say is that your mom has already sent along photos of you a lot more choices than my mom sent you.

So the next time you guys hear this segment, the tables will have turned.

But we don't want this to be all about us, even though you might want it to be all about us. So, as Miles suggested, find those awkward fishing photos and send them to us at Ben at the mediator Dotcom, by the way, you can nominate a friend like if you're thinking like, oh, my God, I got I got this picture Robby on my phone. I'm standing right now. Send it. We'll rip them apart and, you know, say that's thanks to you and posted on social media.

You know, man, of course, Miles has to fully shame me when there's barely any time left in the show to defend myself, and then rather than eat up more time defending myself, I'm just going to give him the floor again so you can get a deeper understanding of his dislike of Halloween via our End of the Line segment in which we tell you what you should be tying on the ends of your lines this weekend.

He's got something appropriately black and orange that stings worse than a small sewing needle shoved inside a Butterfinger.

It's not loud enough, but. To cap off our Halloween episode, we are taking a hard look at a classic Western fly, and before I say the name, I feel like I need to recognize the uncouth nomenclature. It's called a Bitch Creek. I'm not entirely sure how it got that name or when other than it originating somewhere in Montana 80 ish years ago. No one seems to know much about its origins in George F. Grant's classic book, Montana Trout Flies.

He admits that even he couldn't figure out the exact provenance of this particular bug. The general consensus among the people who talk about this kind of obscure nonsense is that the fly may be named for Idaho's Bitch Creek, which is a tributary of the Teton River. That name is said to be a corruption of the French word Biche, which means doe, as in female deer. French fur trappers originally named that water on the beach. And it seems like some of the ingrates who came after butchered the name into the unfortunate version that we have today.

To me, the Bittercreek looks like Halloween on a hook. It's orange, black, furry and wiggly, kind of like a demonic maggot. And also like Halloween. The Bittercreek is overdressed, overhyped and leaves me feeling cheated and a little regretful every time I really get into it.

The Bittercreek is very similar to a flag covered in a past episode.

The Girl Bug, except the girl bug and its modern offshoot, the rubber legs embody a near perfect marriage of simplicity and effectiveness. While the Bitch Creek is a prototype for the worst parts of modern fly design, taking something that's easy to tie in catches fish and making it harder to tie and less effective.

Many, quote unquote new flies just borrow from perfectly good existing pattern and swap out a couple materials and add seven steps.

The end result is a fly that takes ten extra minutes to produce, but is equally or perhaps less productive than the original. But hey, it looks cool. Once again, it feels a lot like Halloween. Instead of the girl bugs classic black, the Bittercreek uses a combination of orange and black chenille. In order to make that work, you need to add in a wire ribbed to hold the two needles in place or get even more complicated and weave them together just for some extra fun with a finicky material.

It's got settle hackle wrapped around the thorax because the four rubber legs just weren't enough legs, I guess. All right. So this is a little hyperbolic. The Bittercreek isn't a particularly complicated fly to tie as far as flies go. We're not talking about a feather game changer, but as you can probably tell, I'm a little salty toward Bage creeks and in fact, I'm not finished. Bittercreek supposedly represent sandfly nymphs, but if that's the case, they're coloring makes no sense.

Adults' salmon flies are indeed black and orange, but the nymphs, the subadults that live underwater have no orange on them at all. The Bittercreek is a sub-surface fly, so adding that orange just makes them look less like the prey they're supposed to be imitating.

But the ultimate reason I dislike this flies because I don't think I've ever caught a trout on a bitch creek. They're one of those bugs that you supposedly have to have in your box because, you know, it's a classic. But really there are far simpler and more effective options. And in that sense, they really are like Halloween, the overdressed holiday where adults spend hours of time and hundreds of dollars putting together costumes in the hope that other adults will finally for one night pay attention to them.

Before I go, though, one thing I have discovered a saving grace for Bishkek's, though they may not be very useful in their intended environment or on their intended Quarrie. They are dynamite for pan fish and small bass in lakes and ponds. Those little bastards can't get enough of them. So while I don't recommend you going out and tying or buying a box of Bishkek's, if you already have some, don't toss them out. Just move them from the western trout box to the warm water box.

So that's it for this week. We hope you enjoyed our nod to my least favorite holiday, learn that you can get a good deal on waiters if you pee in them first and got motivated to watch The Blair Witch Project during your next Netflix and chill. Yeah.

And as always, keep those questions, comments, stories, bars, awkward photos. Now, sale items and concerns coming to bent at the meat eater dotcom. We love hearing from you. As Freddy Krueger would say, you are all our children. Now, matter of fact, here he is saying it to Bill Dance.

You are right now. You must come back. Knaidel. Sure. Boy, this is almost making me like Halloween. Stay safe out there tomorrow night, drink Black Reifel coffee to perk up before heading out with the kids and remember to soak their candy in bleach for at least 24 hours to remove all the covid also its mischief night.

But there's still a toilet paper shortage.

So be responsible kids and just smash the mailbox instead.