This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show for thirty seven, here's what we know to be true. All beliefs are a choice and choices can be changed, right? So if you don't have that belief right now, it's totally OK. You can install it.

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What's going on to bring in Turner, host of the Bigger Pockets podcast here in the C shed, live with my buddy David Greene. David, what's up, man? Welcome, buddy.

It's pouring rain on us right now is unusual.

Not who I thought would be weird. Pouring rain around a technical Timothy for pointing that out in a way that added zero value to anyone else other than you folks smarter than me. But, yeah, you're right, it's not really honest right now.

And we did another magical episode in the season that we did in other magic episodes. And it's today's guest is Marie Foleo. Marie is a online influencer. Very big deal. Let me read her bio because this is so good. Let me just read what I wrote down here about Marie.

So Oprah called her a thought leader for the next generation. She was name on the top one hundred websites for Entrepreneur by Forbes and the author of the instant number one New York Times bestseller, Everything Is Figure Out, which we talk a lot about today. Maria's mission is to help you use your gifts to change the world. She's mentored young business owners alongside. Richard Branson is the creator of the award winning TV show TV with over 58 million views, founder of B School, the online training program, which helped over sixty four thousand entrepreneurs start and grow their business.

So Maria is a big deal and we are lucky to have you here.

I read her book recently, just the other day, and it was phenomenal. Like one of those books, like just like I want to share with everybody because I'm like, it's so good. And so we unpack like three of the chapters of it, like the ten. So go pick up a copy of the book, everything to figure out. And we'll get more into Maria Foglio in just a moment.

But first, David. Let's get to today's Quick Vote quick, QuickTrip, a simple this show was phenomenal about an hour long, roughly give or take. And then we wanted to unpack this show because there is a lot of stuff that applies to real estate investors specifically. But it was you know, we don't want it to be a two hour long show. So here's the deal.

The quick tip is this next Sunday, a week from the day this episode comes out. So I think it'll be episode four. Thirty nine, David, myself and our producer Kevin are going to just spend the entire episode unpacking some of the concepts that we learned from Marie in this episode and really digging into it like how they apply to real estate. And we talk a lot about how to market, how to broaden your reach to motivated sellers, how to how to stand out in a crowded niche of like a million people wanting to buy houses in your area.

How do you stand out? How do you become really good? And some of the advice that we shared in that episode, which is going to blow your mind and help you buy more deals, that Kevin came with a tip that was just unreal.

So stay tuned for that. That that is next week. This is a two part episode, the first ones with Marie, the second episode again, episode four thirty nine is where we unpack it in much more detail. So that's a quick tip is listen to this show today. Let it kind of sink in for a week, maybe read the book this week. You can get on Kindle and then next week and next episode or the two episodes from now, four thirty nine, we're going to unpack it.

That was the not so quick dip. Yeah. And then let us know what you guys think about this idea of us interviewing somebody on mindset, then taking that content and applying it to real estate investing, specifically your business ownership or whatever people are into. If that's something you guys like, we'll probably do it more often.

Yeah, they're good. All right. Well, I said let's get to today's show sponsors. All right, everybody.

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It always and I think we're ready to jump into the interview with. And then you want to cover before we get there. No, no, no. He's gold. Let's bring her in right now.

Amazing communicator, amazing businesswoman and fantastic, fantastic author. So without further ado, this is Marie Forteo.

Murray, welcome to the Bigger Pockets podcast. It is amazing to have you here. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me on. All right. So let's let's start with a little bit about you. And actually, I want to before we can get maybe your story, you wrote a book called Everything Is Figure Out a Bill, which I really love that phrase. I want to know where did that word, that phrase come from? What's the background to that?

So I actually was taught this when I was a little kid by my mom, who is one of the biggest characters ever. So picture this. She's about five three. She kind of looks like June Cleaver. She has the tenacity of a bulldog and she curses like a truck driver. God bless. My mom is still in my life. She's in her 70s now and she's still as spicy as ever. So she actually grew up the daughter of two alcoholic parents in Newark, New Jersey, back in the day.

So she learned how to stretch a dollar bill around the block like three times. That was a survival skill. And when I was growing up as a little girl in New Jersey, one of my favorite memories was of me and my mom sitting at the kitchen table on Sundays, going through the Sunday paper. And she loved teaching me all the ways that we could save money for our family. So we're cutting out coupons. And then she also taught me this thing.

She said, you know, great brands will send you these really cool free things, like a cookbook or utensils if you save up what were known as proofs of purchase. I don't know if you guys remember that.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I have heard that phrase in a long time. Right.

So one of my mom's most prized possessions was this little AM FM transistor radio that she got from Tropicana, orange juice for free. Now this little thing looks exactly like an orange shaped like an orange has a little red and white straw sticking out of the side, which was the antenna. And my mom is one of those humans who never sits still. Right. She's always busy. So as a kid, I knew I could find her someplace around the yard, around the house by listening for the sound of this tiny little AM, FM, Tropicana, Orange Radio.

So one day I'm coming home from school and I heard her radio blasting from like down the road. And as I got closer, the sound was coming from a weird orientation. It was up. And I look up and I see my mom perched precariously on the roof of our two story house, but was like hanging off.

And I was terrified. I'm like, Mom, what are you doing up there? Is everything OK? And my mom looks at me and she leans over. She's like, Right, I'm fine. Don't worry about it. The roof had a leak. I called the roofer. He said it was going to be at least five hundred bucks. I said, screw that. I'm doing it myself. That's my mom.

Another day I come home from school and I walk in the house and I hear that radio blasting from the back and I follow the sound and she's in the bathroom. I push open the bathroom door. It looks like a bomb went off. There's like pipes sticking out of the wall. There's dust particles in the air. And I'm like, Mom, is everything OK? What happened? She's like, all right, I'm fine. You know, the tiles were had some cracks in it.

I didn't want the whole bathroom to get moldy. So I'm retiling the entire bathroom now. You guys got to get I grew up in the eighties.

Right. So this is free Internet. This is for you to Pregabalin time. Yeah, right.

So you can't look the stuff up. And my mom only has a high school education. So one day it was a fall in Jersey and I'm coming home from school and it's dark out already. So it's creepy. I walk up to my house and it's pitch black and silent, which for an Italian American home, not a good sign. I walk inside and you guys know when you get that pit in your stomach like something's wrong. I had that pit and I'm like, what is going on in here?

There's no lights. There's no sound. I don't know what I'm going to find. So I'm tiptoeing around the house and all of a sudden I hear these like clicks and clacks coming from the kitchen. And I turn and I see my mom hunched over the kitchen table, which look like an operating room. She had screwdrivers and electrical tape and then spread out and like a dozen pieces was a completely dismantled Tropicana Orange radio. And I was like, Mom, are you okay?

That's like your favorite thing in the world. What happened? She's like, Really? I'm fine. She's like, the antenna was off, the dial is broken. So I'm just I'm going to fix it. And I stood there, you guys watching my mom work her magic. And I finally thought to ask the question I should have always asked, which was, hey, mom, how do you know how to do so many different things that you have never done before, but nobody's shown you how to do it.

And she put down her screwdriver and she cracked or add to the side and she's like, Ray, what are you talking about? Nothing in life is that complicated. If you roll up your sleeves, you get in there and you do it. Everything is figure out a ball.

And like eight year old me was just like. Oh, my God, that little phrase, everything is figure out. I just kept saying it over and over and I will tell you from that moment throughout now as a grown woman, there is not a single day that has gone by that that phrase does not get me through some kind of something that I get myself in or find myself in or find myself beating my head against a wall about something. It is a profoundly simple and transformative statement that can change your life.

It really is. There is there is a popular book out there. And if you read it, rich dad. Poor Dad. Yeah. So they have that. They have a line in there that changed my life. Similar in the twisting in the way you think. And they said, he said like the poor say, I can't afford it. And the wealthy ask how do I afford it. And when I read that it just changed my life.

It's the same kind of a thing where it's like it's the way you look at something either shuts down your brain from working and says, I'm just going to take the easy route out or I'm going to figure this thing out. I'm going to learn how to do it. And because of that, like, that's kind of like the thing I built my whole life. So it's cool to hear that that side of yours, because it's such a powerful shift in our mindset.

Why do you think so many people struggle with that? Like there's so many people who just what they're given is what they get and what they have, and they will never think outside of that like it's their job. Then you see what those people.

Well, I think, first of all, it's no one's fault, right? You happen to have that gift of coming across this book and it shifted everything. So you learn something. You installed a new belief that changed how you approach everything. For me, I had the gift of, like, my firecracker mom, right.

Teaching me this notion and installing this belief in my brain that everything is figure out a ball. And there's a couple of rules that go with it, which if we want, we can touch on them. They're very fast.

But to your answer, your question, I don't think it's people's fault that they may see a situation and not think it's movable or not think it's transformable or not understand that they have an ability to engage in it and and solve it, fix it, move through it, whatever that situation is. But I think that once you get to be an adult and you expose yourself to new ideas, you have a responsibility to install a new belief system in here, because this thing is the most powerful piece of equipment that you have in your life and it can change everything.

So I just think it's a matter of perhaps not having that gift, of having that belief installed. But once you understand and know, it's your responsibility to do it.

Yeah, that's a great point. Your mom basically helped install that belief in you and then you've built on that. So for those who maybe didn't have that type of a role model or this is a new concept, can you break down maybe two different schools of thought and where they can start building the foundation that you're talking about here? Oh, yeah.

Well, here's what we know to be true. All beliefs are a choice and choices can be changed. Right. So if you don't have that belief right now, it's totally OK. You can install it. And here's what we know from neuroscience, right? We've been studying the brain for decades and decades, and especially within the last twenty years. We know that our ability to learn and think is not static. It doesn't it's not like you're just born with a certain amount of intelligence.

You're not born with a certain amount of skills or gifts or abilities. All of these things are malleable and can be developed. So this is something else we know form from brain science. Repetition is one of the basis of how we literally resculpt our brains and retrain ourselves to think and see and believe in new ways. I mean, for me as a kid, right, I believed in Santa Claus.

And then there came a point where I didn't there's many things that I used to once believe that I no longer believe or didn't believe and now believe. So everyone has proof for this. So I think step one is accepting the fact that all beliefs are a choice and choices can be changed. And then to just understanding a little bit about the power of neuroscience, the more you repeat something both verbally, mentally, and you do it with emotion, the more you drive those grooves into your brain and actually create a new way of seeing in the world.

So we talk about it. Everything is figure out why give people simple exercises. But it's not rocket science. You just have to be dedicated. It's just like, you know, I was a Nike athlete and I've done a lot in health and fitness world. And just because you don't have the ability to do a push up on day one doesn't mean that you can't develop that ability. If you keep at it over a week or two weeks or four weeks, you actually do it.

It's the same thing with beliefs. Yeah, that's so good.

Now, speaking of beliefs, you have a whole chapter about I read everything is figure out. It was phenomenal. And I was just saying that to, you know, suck up to you because you're here today. Like it really is like one of those books I'm going to recommend forever because it's like you it's like the book I wish I wrote. So like, it's awesome. So the chapter on beliefs, that was just phenomenal because you mentioned it already a couple of times here, because it's so transformative when we change our belief that changes everything.

I think I have a quote in there you just said, like, our beliefs change. Like when you change your beliefs, you change everything.

I want to dig into that a little bit deeper. Yeah.

So first of all, what what does that mean when you say belief, like what do you mean by belief? Like, that sounds woo to me or I don't like talking about it, then it just means what you are certain is true.

What you believe is true, it is an idea that you have either repeated or accepted in your mind, in your perspective, in your experience of life, just like you believe that the sun is going to come up every day and it has for your whole life, you believe that you're going to have an ability.

Right, to to breathe. You believe X, Y or Z. That's all it is. It's a thought that we have again and again and again until it becomes our accepted reality. The challenges a lot of people don't understand that beliefs are a choice and you can change them. And that's why I give that example about for me with Santa Claus. Right. You can believe something for the first X amount of years of your life and then you get new information and all of a sudden you have a new perspective.

So beliefs, they're not woo woo at all. It's literally how we get through the world and our brains are able to just once you have a belief, it's almost like a shortcut. You don't have to think about anything. Right. I believe that if I go to reach to open the door, I know how to turn a handle, pull it and walk through it. That's a belief. And it serves me because I don't have to spend 15 hours trying to get through doors.

Does this thing work? How do I touch it? Right. So your beliefs are all over the place. But you have to understand that it does make a difference to take an inventory of what you believe and start to look through what's serving you and what's not, because every single belief is either supporting your dreams or thwarting them.

Every single belief you have is either helping you get to where you want to go in your business, real estate, relationships, health, or it's holding you back and you don't have to beat yourself up about this. Most of us, we didn't choose our beliefs. We absorbed them from our family, our teachers, society, media at large, you name it. We're just like little sponges as babies and we just absorb everything. And it isn't until we get to be teens, sometimes grown as humans like we are now, where we actually challenged some of those assumptions and questioned whether or not they're doing us any good.

That's so good because believes work two ways, right? Like I mean, like some people believe like, oh, I have. And I'm I'm not putting down people who look clinically have issues like depression or anxiety. People do say they have depression and all of a sudden they're depressed or they say, I'm excited and all of a sudden they're just having vidi. I had no problem with Tels until I started telling myself I hate phone calls. And I thought of repeating that belief over and over.

And now, like, when the phone rings, I feel like I have like, this anxiety because I don't want to talk on the phone. I just feel horrible. But that's a belief I installed. And because of that, I can uninstall and install another belief in its place.

Yes. And I do want to I want to speak to this for a second, too, because I have a lot of folks in my audience and I know there's a lot of us, especially just given the events of of recent times where depression and anxiety can be real debilitating.

Right. And I know from my own experience, I just went through this whole health thing where I had different chemical things happening in my body that I've never had before and feeling a level of darkness that I've never experienced in my life. So here's what's cool about all of this. If you're someone listening right now who you're like, whoa, hang on a second. I absolutely know that I have and struggle with depression or anxiety. Here's what's a cool belief.

You can say, OK, this thing is a challenge and I can believe to learn to thrive with it.

This thing can be a real tough thing to navigate. And I can still reach my goals in my dreams. I'm just going to have to figure it out. And then we come back to everything and figure out, well, that's no good.

It almost sounds like what you're describing is your belief system, is your operating system, that everything else that happens to you in life is going to operate out of. Brandon and I have been talking a lot about the power of identity. We sit down and we talk about, OK, this person that we know that doesn't eat sugar ever, why are they able to just not eat sugar? And they don't really struggle with it that much? And it's that person it's his name's Gabe.

His identity is I don't eat that kind of food. You see other real estate investors, right. When something crosses our path, we go, how would I make this work? And then we find new investors that say, oh, that won't work or it's not already ready to go. I know that identity has a huge, huge role in how successful we are at whatever we take on. And what I'm starting to piece together here, from what you're saying, is that your your beliefs are what create your identity, your identity, just a system, a set of beliefs that you have.

Is that more or less what you're getting at?

Absolutely. And I love the analogy around an operating system, first of all, because most of us have so much experience with technology these days that we understand intrinsically. If you're operating system is buggier, outdated, you need to update it. You can update it. Right. So you as a human being and I completely want to underscore, underline, Chir highlight, blow up the notion of identity and how vital it is to the outcomes and your experience of life.

So for me, you know. I do believe that everything is figure out, and I do want to touch on the three rules, because for anyone who's skeptical and they should be, it will really help. So for me, here's how these three rules work. And we talk about this in the book because it really helps people create a mental container so they not like not everything is being accountable or I don't believe you.

So here's rule number one. All problems or dreams are figure out of all. Rule number two, if a problem isn't figure out, it's not a problem. It's a fact of life, death, gravity, certain laws of nature. Rule number three, you may not care enough to solve this particular problem or reach this particular dream. And that's OK. Find something that you do care deeply about and go back to rule number one. Now, why is that so important?

Because you will not figure anything out. You won't have the stamina, the persistence. You won't be able to go the distance if you don't care deeply enough about it. So for anyone listening, you were giving that example of the person around sugar. There's a little trick in there, by the way, which we'll talk about. It's a language trick that anyone can use to help themselves stick to a habit longer and will get there. But that friend of yours.

Right, it is so important for him to not have sugar. It is a part of his identity. He's not going to violate that.

But clearly, it has such significance in his life that he's not willing to screw around with it. Where for anyone else listening, you're like, well, that's really not the thing I care about figuring out.

Let me go have my snicker and be fine now.

So right. So I think those three rules can just help anyone. So especially around real estate growing, the real estate business doing investment, if that's the thing that someone wants to figure out and they make it their number one priority, if they listen to you guys, they stay on that game, they keep trying things, they will get there.

Yes. You know, it's one thing I admire about vegan's is that vegan's like I'm not a full vegan or anything, but like vegans, like have this belief system, like this identity that's based on this belief system that that most vegans I don't like, they just stick really, really hard core to it because it's just who they are. Yeah, right. Like and it irritates everyone around them. Right. But it's still like it's cool. I admire you because like they hold so tightly to it.

Yeah. When it comes to like I'm a business owner, like I know so many people, I see that chances are any business, whether it's a real estate business or something completely different, I feel like they struggle with getting into that identity. Like if people held to the belief that they are a business owner, the way that vegans hold to, if you can believe, like, I think they would go so much further in general. But people just don't they lack the confidence.

They lack the belief that they need. So my question for you is like what? Like how does somebody then build those beliefs in their life? Like, what are some ways that people can change out that operating system in their life?

Yeah, there's a couple of things. So as it relates I call everything is figure out what kind of like the master key belief, because if you install that one, then everything else falls below it. Right. You can figure anything out that's important to you. So one of the assignments that I actually gave a bunch of readers when we first launched the book was every single day to actually write in your journal. Everything is figure out. Well, everything is figure out.

Well, at least ten times. I know that sounds silly, but when you say it, when you write it, you are drilling it into your being.

And then I would have them write like the number one thing that they're most committed to figuring out.

So like everything is figure out who will write that simple ten times, then write everything is figure out well, including fill in the blank with the thing that you are working on and it starts to shift your focus. I know it might sound so simplistic. I know people like that can't possibly work. I promise you, this is how we learn new languages. This is how we install any type of new information so it becomes automatic. So if anyone listening right now, again, just take on that assignment, write it every single day, ten times straight, and then another ten underneath it with the one thing that you want to do, the thing you're most committed to.

That's one way to do it.

Another practice is you behave your way into whatever it is that you want to figure out. So you were talking about having an identity as a business owner. So when you introduce yourself. Right, why don't you start saying I'm a business owner? And when people ask you, then you need to be able to talk about the business that you're starting, the business that you're working on, the business you are investigating, or. Oh, wow, I'm in the startup phase right now.

Here's who we're looking to serve. Like you can completely do it with full authenticity, full integrity and not B.S. about how much further you are along when you're not there yet. Does that make sense so you can embody it? And then there's one other question I always like to pose to people, especially if it was around identity and saying I'm a business owner. Here's a question that'll get you to behave at your best and really call forth like your ultimate potential every day, ask yourself how would I behave if I were the best in the world at what I'm doing?

Yeah, how would I behave if I was the best in the world at what I'm doing? Not in comparison to anyone else, the best you at what you are doing.

And then you actually break that down and go, well, what time would I wake up in the morning if I was the best in the world and what I do, what would I put in my face as fuel? What I workout, what I not workout, what I meditate like how would I treat my spouse, my significant other, my kids, my family, how would I treat my team?

What would happen? You know, another trick I give people, as you guys know, and I didn't have much coffee today. I'm full of ideas. Another fun trick. If you were the best in the world at what you do. Right. And there was a film crew following you around from The New York Times or any media outlet of your choice, what would they see? What what would make you proud to show the world how you are behaving into your highest potential?

So those are just a few ideas to give people some things to play with. I love that because you don't like being a real estate investor. You are one of our business anyway. It is both David and I are real investors and let people listen to this are and real estate is very popular on TV, right? This whole HDTV, it's a whole network geared towards what we do.

So I love that idea of thinking. If I was like the star of a house flipping TV show and they were following me around, like, would they be bored and struggling with trying to come up with enough stuff to talk about? Because I'm not actually doing the work that that that a house flipper would do. That's it.

Like, are you on this thing? And I'm holding up a phone for those on the podcast. Are you scrolling social media all day? Are you screwing around on stuff that doesn't really matter? Right. So I think these are just fun little games that you could play with yourself to tell yourself the truth to you, not for anybody else, but for you. Because I think when you have integrity with how you're behaving into your day, how you're behaving into your week, all of a sudden the results start to take care of themselves.

That's really good. Hey, I want to I want to still talk about beliefs for a second here. I got two questions about beliefs. No. One, this this is a hard one. But you're are you are you married or significant other. Significant other.

Yes. OK, how do you how do you convince him maybe you haven't had to go through this necessarily, but how do you how do you change somebody else's beliefs and can you change somebody else's beliefs like specific I mean a spouse or a loved one. Somebody you, you know, you're close with. Can you change it? And how do you change it if they have a belief that just does not fit with yours?

Yeah, that's a great question. So this is the kind of stuff that I like to get out of the way at the beginning of the relationship. So for context, my partner and I have been together. It's going on eighteen years, right? Oh, wow. Yeah. So we've been together a very, very long time. And I am one of those humans who just likes to talk about everything up front. So I've always known that I didn't want to have biological kids and I'm not really big on marriage, which is why I'm not married.

And so I lay all that stuff out at the top. And then another big topic, money.

I love talking about money and I love money in and of itself. Not as a thing because I care about materialism. I like money because it's freedom and it can make a really big difference in the world. So for me, I feel like when it comes to having a great relationship, you have got to be willing to invest in your communication skills so that I know I'm kind of preceding building a little bit of foundation.

Before we get to the answer to your question, which are really good questions, but I think that if you want to have a really long, satisfying, loving relationship that challenges you both to grow, you have to continuously invest in your ability to love that person as they are and not want to make them different and be able to talk through the places where your individual.

So you're not going to see eye to eye on everything. And that's OK. So that's a whole other conversation for a whole other day that we can have because I spent a lot of time there. But coming back to your question, can you change someone else's beliefs and how do you do it?

I believe that if someone else wants to change their belief about something, that you can support them. But if they don't want their beliefs changed, I actually think you're being a really big asshole to try and change someone else if they're not volunteering and saying, hey, I really need some support around this. And I think that as hard as this may be to here, I think that if you guys are butting heads in a relationship, you have to find a way to communicate about what's most important to you and why and here what's most important to them and why.

And then use a phrase like everything is figure out a bill to figure out or create a way through it so both people can feel respected and you can honor each other's differing beliefs. That's that's really good.

Yeah. We get so many people reaching out to us that say things like, well, my husband or my wife doesn't want to or my boyfriend girlfriend doesn't want to do what you want it. They don't invest in real estate. They don't want to go buy a rental property or they just don't get it. They don't understand what I'm. Doing, yeah, and it's hard, I fully admit that it was hard. Totally, yeah, because they don't.

But most of it's not that they don't support them is what I what I think is often the cause, not always the cause, but a lot of times it's it's more of an excuse to not take action than it is because like I don't need like if my wife wasn't on support in support of my real estate, like I could still build a real estate, but it's not going to go against her wishes. Of course, like, I don't I don't need her support.

I can do it by myself. So really what I'm looking for is her help. And I don't need her help, you know what I mean? So, like, I do have an excuse to not take action. Correct.

There's a distinction there for sure, because you can honor, love, respect your significant other your partner, and you can still build the life that you want. And to be quite honest, if you're in some kind of situation where they're thwarting you or that's not OK, like that's a really big indication that this is not a good yes. That's a bigger problem than trying to build your real estate business. Right. You need to get that settled first.

But in terms of excuses, I think, first of all, all of us make excuses from time to time, right? We're human beings. I do what you do and everybody listening. We all make excuses from time to time. But what I've discovered is that if you really want to be your most powerful self, if you really want to figure anything out again, that's most important to you, you got to go excuse free. It's like your friend going sugar free.

It's like I don't do excuses, like as a lifestyle. And the best way I've found yet to help all of us, myself included, break free of excuses and keep doing it because it's a practice.

It's not a one time decision. Is understanding the distinction between two tiny words can't versus. Well, here's what I've seen.

Yeah, ninety nine point nine percent of the time, not a hundred, but ninety nine point nine percent of the time when we human beings use the word can't, it's really a euphemism for well.

So I can't work out because I can't get up that early or I can't invest in real estate. I don't have the time to go look at all these deals or I can't write my next book because my kids are all over the place and I don't have time to blah, blah, blah, blah.

But if you replace the word can't with won't, what usually happens is you discover something much more truthful and honest just between you and you. So like, I can't get in shape and work out again because it becomes I won't because I don't want to wake up early. So see, won't really means I'm not willing I don't want to make the sacrifice. I don't want to get uncomfortable. I don't want to change around my existing priorities. I don't want to rock the boat.

And here's what's so cool about just getting clear on this between you and you. When we use a word like can't we assume a victim type of stance where we're not in control of our time, we're not in control of our energy, we're not in control of our life. And I have never met any human that from a victim type mentality is at their best never seen it.

I don't think I ever will.

On the other hand, when you're saying, like, you know what, I won't work out or I won't invest in real estate right now because I have other priorities and this needs to just get opinionate just for a month or two months or whatever. What happens is you get honest between you and you, your shoulders relax and you're like, oh, I don't have to beat myself up. I don't have to feel like a loser. I just won't do it right now because it's not my number one priority.

And that's OK. That makes sense.

Oh, you are speaking truth here. Dropping bombs.

I love this type of talk because what you mentioned get honest between you and you. And I think that's worth really digging into just how important it is that when you're lying to yourself, you end up lying to everybody else around you at the same time, whether you ever actually meant to or not. And that saying I can't instead of I won't is really just a form of lying to yourself because you could I can't get up that early.

Brandon would say, it's OK, I'll come knock on your door 30 minutes earlier and I'll get you up and I'll show you. Hey, you made it up early. You could write, but saying I won't get up that early tells Brandon I don't want to get up that early. So now you're a jerk.

If you can make me and I'm using Brandon as an example. That's really the whole world we're telling ourselves and the whole world. I don't want this enough, so don't push me into it. Versus when you say I can't, people that love you now think, well, they just need some encouragement. They need some help. I can't go to the gym. I don't know how to use the machines. OK, well, that a good friend would take you to the gym and they teach you how to use the machines.

I won't go to the gym now as a friend. I know. Don't push him. Just wait for them to be ready. And I think that your subconscious is a form of a friend. It's listening to what you say. And if you're telling yourself, I won't be better, I won't invest in real estate, I won't push myself out of my comfort zone, I won't whatever your subconscious hears that and goes, OK, I'll quit bothering you about it.

We'll work on something different and you get a form of peace inside, which leads to discontentment, because now it bothers you that you're saying, I won't go work out or I won't wake up earlier or or I won't make this change it a. Make me a better father or mother to my children, which is kind of what puts in motion change. Yes, these are the and that's really what I want to make sure people hear, is that as long as you say I can't, you stay in a victim mindset, which you worded beautifully, that no one's at their best when they're a victim.

Even if you are a victim of something, it still doesn't behoove you to focus on that and stay in a victim energy, which is really just giving yourself an excuse to not do something about it. Yeah.

So almost everyone in the world has been victimized from time to time or will be, but they don't have to be a victim. And that is a very big distinction. So the injustices that occur, the abuses that occur, the things that are just horrific, that would make all of us cry and want to hug folks that are listening right now, those are a 100 percent valid and one hundred percent real and. You don't have to identify as a victim, and that's where the big distinction, I think comes in, that's a great point, because victims aren't empowered and there's even a form of self comfort that comes from wallowing in what happened to you.

Now, I like that you pointed out that it doesn't mean bad things didn't happen, but you're almost I would say, Brandon, would you agree just about every single person we've ever interviewed that has an impressive story, had something bad happen to them that fueled them out of any many of them, even minor stuff like they were like they were the whatever they made fun of all the time in high school or middle school. Yeah, they weren't popular. They grew up not having stuff.

Other people had varying degrees, obviously, of offenses that create a victim. But the common thread is that successful people took that pain, created fuel and let it propel them past everybody else. And when you stay in a victim mindset, it's like you've got all this rocket fuel and rather than burning it to get ahead, you're drowning in it because of the comfort that it brings.

And that's just what I wanted to highlight, Mary, because I think you have so many good examples of ways to turn that pain into fuel. That's really good.

Hey, let's take a quick break from this episode. We'll continue in just a moment. But first, let's hear a word from our sponsors.

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So head over to Bessey. Twenty twenty one dotcom sized BPE for more details and to register again. That's busy. Twenty twenty one dot com forward slash bpy. Well, can I can I actually ask you go back to you, Maria, with your story of your working on Wall Street and you got that like when I read that in the book, your story, I was like I felt like I just I felt for you. Can I I was there as well within a bank.

It was the same thing. Like you explain like, what was that like and how did you get out of that world, that pain and how to develop you who you are today. Yeah.

So, you know, I started off as a psych major in college. I was actually when I was a young kid, I thought I was either going to be like an animator for Disney or some type of fine artists. The creativity was a huge part of me. But when I got to college, I made the shift and I studied business finance and I remember her like being a senior, going like I cannot picture myself sitting behind a desk. Like, I have way too much energy for that.

Right. And the only place I could see myself thriving was on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. There's literally no seats. They used to have these fold down seats like that. You could maybe sit on for a second, but as an assistant or someone new, you would never. So people are running around like crazy. So I was on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange and I was so grateful at a job. I'm the first in my family to go to college.

And so I knew I was like, this is an opportunity and a half. You know, I have a steady paycheck. I have health care. This is amazing.

I'm twenty one years old and the people around me were making like a gazillion dollars more money. I never even fathom that much money. And one thing that I started to notice, though, is no matter how financially wealthy the people were around me, it was almost as if they were spiritually bankrupt. They didn't seem that happy. And many of them pined for these like two weeks out of the year that they could take vacation. And then you layer on.

There was a lot of sexism. If I'm just going to be honest, I was trying to be taken seriously and it was just getting hit on constantly. At one point, I literally cut off all my hair, had a buzz cut because I was trying so desperately to not, like, have an appearance be the thing that was taking the forefront. And it was a culture where I was like, the bell would ring at four p.m. You go to strip clubs, there's a lot of cocaine.

And I was like, this is not me. Like, this is so not me. And I felt like Brandon that I was dying the slow death. But I put on my game face like many of us do. When you show up at a job because you're a responsible human and you got bills and you got a roof that you got to keep over your head and food on the table and all that stuff. And after about six months, I remember I was just growing so miserable day by day and like the voice in my head kept saying, this is not who you are.

This is not what you're meant to do. This isn't what you're meant to be in the world. But the problem was that voice wasn't telling me what I was supposed to be doing and said I was just so miserable. One day I showed up on the floor and I had what I can now only recognizes like a panic attack. I didn't know what it was back then, but I started getting dizzy. I had trouble breathing. I felt like I was going to pass out.

And I told my bosses like, hey, I need to go grab a cup of coffee. And he said, Yeah, sure, go. And instead of going to get coffee, I made a beeline to the nearest church. I was raised Catholic and I went to Catholic University. And so I was kind of trained at that point. When you're in crisis, you got to just look up and ask for a little bit of help. So I ran to the church and I sat on the steps and I was crying my face off like ugly cry, like snot bubbles kind of cry, you know, that cry that we all do from time to time.

And I felt like such a loser because I was putting on this game face. I had gotten this big Wall Street job. I didn't know what the hell else I was supposed to do. There was no backup plan, but all I wanted to do was quit. And I took out my flip phone at the time because this is the late 90s. Remember those?

And I called my dad because I didn't want to be I didn't want to bring shame on my family because you know what else? And I'm crying. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I don't want to disappoint you. My dad finally broke and he's like, Ray, you've been working since you were nine years old. I'm not worried about you, you know, paying your bills. He's like, I got to tell you, the secret to life, you're going to be working for the next 40 or 50 years.

You have got to find something you love. And if you're this sick, you're making yourself this crazy, this upset, this sick on this Wall Street job. Then you need to quit and you need to take as long as it takes to find that thing that you really love. Because once you do that, it's never going to feel like work. And I know you you're it's it's going to change. Everything is like I can't tell you what that is is like, but if this is making you this sick, you need to quit and you need to do whatever you can to find it.

And when I hung up, I knew he was right, even though I was terrified because I had no idea how to find what I love. Like, they don't train us in this in this country in terms of education, we were very ill equipped, I think, when we come out of college. But that's how I just went on an odyssey to say, OK, I need to figure this thing out. Let me ask you a quick question.

I'm assuming from what it sounds like, you are giving your all at this job.

Yes. And you knew it's it's still isn't working out for me one. Thing I wonder is if someone knows in their heart they're not giving their all and they're not happy. It's very hard to tell. Am I not happy because it's the wrong fit or because I'm not holding up my end of the bargain? Would you agree that part of knowing if you're in the right place or not, as you have to be doing your very best while you're there?

Hundred, 110 percent? Like if you're showing up as a complaint from the moment you walk in and you're like, this sucks, I hate this, you're on your phone, you're doing whatever, whatever, and you are not engaged giving your all, then that's like habituating mediocrity. So when you show up in the potential real estate deal, you're not going to have the discipline internally to give it your best. You're not going to have the energy levels.

You're not going to have the mental acuity to be able to go in there and crush it if you're just constantly miserable. That's why. And it was a really I'm so happy that you picked up on that, because I was trying my very best like everything I had and it still wasn't working. And I kept doing that job after job where I was like giving it my all. I'm a very enthusiastic, energetic person, so I don't come half charged.

I come like like a like a bull.

And if I'm doing that every day for like six months and inside my intuition is dying a slow death, then I know I got to get the hell out. And so for anyone listening right now, it's a really good indicator.

I learned one of the best lessons ever when I had started my coaching business, basically after failing at a bunch of other jobs after Wall Street when I was bartending and waiting tables in order to keep a roof over my head while I figured out how the hell to build a coaching business as a twenty three year old, which sounded ridiculous, it sounded so stupid, like who's going to hire a twenty three year old life coach?

I was in tons of debt. I didn't even live life yet. I'd failed at all these jobs, like none of that made logical sense. But in my heart I knew something felt right. So I was bartending, waiting tables because I didn't have coaching clients, obviously. And I realized something big. I was bartending and waiting tables like sometimes eight, ten hours a day. And I fell into that trap of being miserable at it because I wanted to be coaching clients instead of pouring drinks.

And I caught myself. It was a check yourself before you wreck yourself a moment. I was like, I need to bring my A game to this bartending gig, because if I don't, by the time I get home at night, I'm going to be so exhausted from being miserable all day. I'll never get my coaching business off the ground.

I love that you're pointing this out because I've noticed there's a lot of people that are unhappy at many things in life. They're in a relationship. They're not satisfied if they're not giving their best. That relationship. You can never know if it's the wrong relationship or you not holding up your end of the bargain. The same would go for if you're on a sports team or anything else. So I just I'm very grateful that you're pointing out that you went so far as to cutting off your hair to remove any excuse for why you weren't successful, and that is why you had clarity like this.

Is that the right place? I mean, you're able to take that action. I know that there's a lot of people that say that they've done what you did. And they're they they're not happy. They don't feel it's the right fit. They're giving it their all, but they still can't move forward because they are afraid. Yeah. And fear is just a part of life. It's always been there. It's always going to be there.

We tend to treat fear like pain. It's bad. Run away from it. I don't like how it feels. Would you mind sharing with us a little bit about what your relationship with fear is?

Yeah. So fear's a really fun one, right? Like many of us have heard a lot of the acronyms, like false evidence appearing real f everything and run. And one of my favorites is Face Everything and Rise. That is my favorite idea about fear, because here's the thing. You know, fear. First of all, it's a really useful emotion. It helps to keep us alive.

So in situations like it stops you from walking in front of a moving bus or a train, it's awesome.

But when it comes to the different components of our life that are not necessarily life or death, but can feel that way internally, it really does keep many of us playing much smaller than we should.

So I think that fear can be a really instructive friend. And I have this notion about fear that it's almost like a child or a dog that only has one modality of communicating. So infants, all they know how to do, really when they need to get your attention is cry. So if they're happy, they might start screaming and it turns into a cry or if they've got a poopy diaper and they cry or their stomach and they're hungry and they cry.

Same thing with my dog. I have a tiny toy Australian shepherd, and he is amazing. But he's only got one note which is pretty much barking. Right? So if the UPS guy is there, he's barking. If he wants me to play with the ball with him more, he's barking.

And so fear is in a similar way, a. One note kind of friend, when you're about to take a big leap, when you're thinking about making that investment, making the shift into a new career, what fear is? I think she's like a friend who's making you feel all of these different things inside. But what we do as humans is we misinterpret the signal. We think it means danger. Stop, move back, keep yourself safe. But what if outside of those situations of walking in front of a moving bus, your fear is really erupting and saying, oh, my goodness, this thing?

Yes, pay attention to it. It's the most important thing ever. Move towards it.

But we just haven't been taught to interpret that signal in a different way. So I like to think of fear as a GPS for where your soul most wants to go. Again, this is in a context of not physical safety, right? I'm not talking about put yourself in any kind of physical danger, but I'm talking about new careers, relationship changes, creative risks that you want to take. If you start to look at your fear like a GPS for your soul, most wants to go, all of a sudden that fear can be instructive, not restrictive.

And we have a lot of exercises in the book because a lot of people may be saying, yeah, that's a good girl, but how am I going to pay the bills? Or what if my fear takes me to a place that's going to put me at some kind of financial risk? I'm with you. I'm typically a pretty risk averse person, especially when it comes to financial matters.

So I get that. But there are ways to let your fear be instructive and also use your logical brain. There's ways to take care of your finances and understand your numbers enough so that you're able to take a risk and be able to walk through what's the worst thing that could happen and then how might you recover if that worst thing happens to put yourself in a place of making really calculated, thoughtful risks that even if it doesn't turn out in the best case scenario, you're still not going to take yourself off a financial cliff, you're still going to learn something and you're still going to progress.

Now, it's really, really, really good. You know, one thing we talk a lot about here at bigger pockets is, you know, when people want to get into real estate, one of the one of the good ways to do that, everyone's afraid, right? Everyone's afraid to go and invest money and jump into it. So we talk about like if you buy it, let's say a house where you can rent out the bedrooms, worst case to your friends or family or whatever, and you could pay the mortgage, like that's pretty low risk way to get started.

Or you buy a duplex by two units, you flatter duplex, whatever, you rent out one of the units you live in. The other one, like worst case scenario is not too bad. If I bought a multimillion dollar house in Hawaii here and I wasn't, I looked at it. I fell in love with it. I wasn't going to do it. I was afraid it was so much so expensive, ten times more than my last house was like, why would I do that?

And David here is actually the one who would like he did that. At worst case is like, well, what would go wrong? And I'm like, well, what if I stop selling all books? All my real estate crashed and burned. I couldn't afford to pay my mortgage. OK, well, it's three separate units here in Hawaii, three separate. What could you rent all three for? Like I said, in other words, you'd be breaking even or even making money if you had to give up and go back home, back to the mainland and give up your Hawaii surf dreams like, oh, yeah, I guess I'd own a multimillion dollar property that makes me money in Hawaii.

That's only going to be worth millions more later on.

Right. Like it's like, oh, feel like that. And I mean, in a heartbeat the fear went away I think. Oh I guess why not do that. So I guess that's for real estate. There's a lot of like that. I mean a lot of businesses, there's not a lot of like you're going to get nailed to the side of a fence or, you know, like there's nothing real bad that's going to happen to you in most businesses.

You start an online business. OK, well, it didn't work out. You lost the money, maybe lost time. You learned a ton. You got in real estate. You started a flipping company. You flip some houses. You lost a little bit of money because it didn't go well. OK, well, you know, it's cheaper than college. So it's yeah, it's the fear thing is interesting that. And anyway, I just think that, yeah, people let fear stop them, and it's probably one of the biggest mistakes they make.

Yeah, well, fear is just it's a really big topic.

And I think it's important for people to understand how to use it to fuel you ahead and also how to write down both the best and the worst case scenarios that could happen from you following this, quote unquote, fear the thing that you most want to do, the thing that is most exciting, that could have the biggest upside in your lives.

But here's the distinction.

Most people only talk through the worst and best case scenarios in their heads, even if they talk it out out loud, like you just did with, you know, with David. I think, though, what's even more important, you have to write it down. There is a magic that occurs in seeing something concretely on paper, like literally writing down. This is the worst case scenario that I could imagine in my head and happening. And I'm going to articulate that on the page and then asking yourself, what would I do if that happened?

What's my rebound planned? So for me with starting my online business, I just remember, you know, I was bartending and again, I was trying to train myself to bring my A game because I was miserable.

I was like, OK, you know, if I start this business, if it really if everything goes to hell and no one wants to hire me as their coach and it's just awful and I lose all bartending jobs, what's the worst thing that could happen? And I started teasing that through is like, OK, I get kicked out of my apartment, all right? My parents wouldn't take me back. I'd have no friends, I'd be homeless. I'd wind up in a shelter.

And that was kind of like the bottom of the bottom for me, which I didn't think I was going to get there. But if I just pushed it all the way to the edge, that was the truth. And I said, OK, what would I do?

I was like, well, I go find a job at like Starbucks or McDonald's, like some place. Like, I'm not afraid of hard work. So I will do whatever I need to do to lift myself up back again. And once I got real clear on that, I was like, to your point, it's like this actually isn't that bad. And by the way, even articulating and writing down the worst case scenarios, I believe mitigates the chances that they will ever happen because you faced it and you're never going to let it get to that point.

There's probably five or six steps above that where you could pull the plug, you could change something. You can make new decisions to not let yourself get all the way down into that worst worst worst case scenario.

Yeah, yeah. As Brandon was talking, what I realized there, Marie, is he felt the fear. He said, OK, the baby's crying. And rather than saying, OK, I need to avoid this, it doesn't feel good. He sat down and tried to figure out what's the what does the baby need. David, help me walk through why I don't want to do this. And what we what we got to was really things that had to do with your financial thermostat.

I don't deserve a multimillion dollar property. Right. Only rich people had those. And so your subconscious knew you weren't comfortable with it. It starts to come up with excuses like, well, what if this happens? What if that happens?

But I read a lot of that was based on beliefs that were instilled in me and Charles. Exactly right. That's exactly what was going it. Right. Your beliefs and your identity were dictating the emotion you had. But everybody's going to go through that. I'm going to go through it. Marie is still going to go through it. You're going to go through it. Yes. The key is writing it down, talking to other people that don't have your belief system that can see the things that you would miss.

That's why we talk about accountability and friendship and doing this journey of investing with other people, because you're not struggling or you are struggling with things they're not. And they may be struggling with things and you're not. That was a very easy conversation for me to have with you, because I was completely unemotional. I didn't have any fear at all. I could see very clearly. So what you're talking about, me writing it down, is taking away the power of fear away.

It's actually saying, well, is the baby hungry? Let me see. Nope, that wasn't it. Is the baby want to be picked up? Let me see. Nope, that wasn't it. And you just work your way through until the baby stops crying and now everybody's happy. I'm sure you have lots of examples of this happening before we move on to the famous for is there anything you can share for people listening that say, yeah, that's my problem?

What's the first step that I should take towards addressing these fears that I'm carrying?

Well, I think it's about really writing down first the best case scenario, right. So we oftentimes, because of the negativity bias in our minds, we are naturally attracted to, oh, my goodness, what are the bad things that could happen to us? But I think we put much less emphasis and a to our own detriment on the best things that could possibly happen to us from, quote unquote, following the sphere. So I'd like to just challenge people to lean a little bit into that.

First, what are all the benefits? What are all the upsides? What are all the potential positives that could come from you following this fear? Again, we're operating under the assumption that outside of physical safety, following your fear, it's a GPS for your wear, your soul most wants to go. So I would say list out in concrete detail the best case scenarios, all the people you can benefit. What's the legacy you might leave? What might you learn?

How could you grow? How you're going to become a better father, mother, leader, entrepreneur financially. What are the upsides? Are you going to make new friends, are you going to invite new people over to like you can just I want people to go nuts.

That's why I was saying so many things, because you want that best case scenario illness in an ideal world to so overshadow the bullshit that might go wrong from the worst case scenario list that when you do the self distancing and this is what I wanted to add to it, David, you know, it's not like there's some WUO magic about writing it down, but there is some some science behind self distancing. What that means is you're not appear in your head talking about it all emotional.

You're seeing it concretely on paper where you can be more objective.

And so once you've done the big best case scenarios and keep going and keep going, then do the worst case scenarios and don't just do worst case scenarios, but also add in that step.

And what would I do to rebound or recover if that happened? And I think if anyone listening to this right now has something that is kind of scary for them and they actually did those exercises on paper and had the benefit of maybe talking to a dear friend or someone who really believed in them, someone who respected them, they would get a lot closer to making a decision that feels both empowered and intelligent.

That's really good. Really good.

We had interviewed a guy named Stig who had the podcast called We Study Billionaires. It's a big business podcast. And he he mentioned like three things that billionaires all have in common. And one of them is closely related to this. I want to bring it back up again. And it was called they make a was a asymmetric bet, asymmetric bets. In other words, they they make bets on things. I would say most entrepreneurs that are successful do this.

In other words, the loss that they could experience is significantly different than the gain that they could get. In other words, the gain is way, way better than what they could possibly lose. And they just think that way because a lot of times people think, well, it's 50 50, I might have an amazing life or I might die. But that's not what that's not what entrepreneurship is. It's rarely that way anyway. I'm sure some weird entrepreneurs have that bet.

But most of the time it's like, well, there's no five, 10, 20 percent chance that this is really going to hurt me in some way. But there's a 70, 80, 90 percent chance that this is going to change my life for the better forever.

That's right. And so I just thinking that way all of a sudden helps just relieve a lot of that fear. That's really cool.

Hey, Murray, what does B school I know we haven't really talked at all about it all over the Internet and a lot of people talk about it.

Yeah. So thank you. B School is our online business school for modern entrepreneurs who want to make money and make a difference. So basically back when I started my business almost twenty years ago, I cannot believe it. Digital business was non-existent. I was like sending an email newsletter before anyone else was. And one of the things that I realized, the more and more people I met there was these awesome, brilliant values driven creative humans who wanted to start their own business but don't have an MBA.

I don't have an MBA, don't have a ton of like venture capital or even experience in that world or even a desire to go into that type of business.

They want to start something on the side. They want to start it small. They want to kind of be scrappy and bootstrap it. But they didn't have any training or experience and how to do the marketing and sales end and in a way that didn't feel slimy or scamming or aggressive. And what I found is there's a lot of people out there who are very entrepreneurial, but they're like, I'm the idea person. I want someone else to do the marketing.

I want someone else to do the sales. I'm just going to stay in this cool zone of the ideas and coming up with things. And I would want to shake them lovingly, but sometimes smack them and say sales and marketing are the lifeblood of any of every business.

And here's the big important point is that when you're doing what I call modern marketing, the best of your humanity comes out not the worst. Your most generous self, your most empathetic self, your most understanding, creative values, driven self comes out when you're doing it right. So I started this school because I wanted to teach people how to have a successful business using modern tools in a way that was completely aligned with their values and their highest vision of who they could be.

That's cool.

Yeah, I've heard I've heard a lot of good things about it, so whatever. Yeah, it sounds amazing. It is.

We've had over. I'll just quickly we've had over sixty four thousand graduates from over six. Yeah.

From over 600 different industries including real estate, including fishing and farming and fashion apps and you name it from over one hundred and forty one countries. So we've been doing it. This will be our 12th year. It's pretty cool and we've got a lot of free training up right now that people can take advantage of. So even if you never do the program, there's a ton of free workshops that we have. If you want to give the link in your show notes or people can go to join the school dotcom, just take advantage of the free stuff because it will completely change your mindset and you'll have a lot of action steps to take to grow your business.

I love it.

Amazing. All right.

Well, before we get out here, we got four final questions we ask every guest every week for four hundred and whatever show is now. So let's fire them out at you. It's time for the famous four.

Hey, let's take a quick break from this episode. We'll continue in just a moment. But first, let's hear word from our sponsors, so. You caught my interview on the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, you know that I used to be a disaster with my personal finances. No, like the word disaster is literally in the title of the episode. And my real estate investing didn't really take off until I figured it out the hard way. Why not skip the hard way and use a powerful tool like you need a budget.

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You need a budget free for thirty four days, no credit card required. And you need a budget dotcom, much bigger pockets. That's you need a budget. Dotcom size, bigger pockets. The famous four is a part of the show again, where we ask these same four questions. First question we ask what is one habit or trait you're currently trying to build or trying to improve upon in your life?

My second meditation of the day. So I meditate pretty regularly first thing, but when I do two in a day, it just takes it to a new level and I'm not that great.

At the second one you can I ask usually won't expand on these, but I'm going I'm going to ask you to expand on it. Yeah. What benefits do you see for meditation. I'm curious because a of people talk about it. I'm not a big meditation guy or I haven't been so well, you see.

So for me, like technically I have ADHD and my brain, I mean, is like a squirrel like it. I have so many ideas constantly. And so for me, meditation is a way for me to train my focus. I also feel like when I meditate, I don't chase my day. I'm in it. I'm completely mad when I don't meditate. It feels like I'm grabbing, like I'm running like I'm chasing. There's a lot of other benefits, to be really honest with you, but those are some of the top line for me.

And when I've added on the second one and I've done it so twenty minutes, morning in twenty minutes that evening, it feels like a new level of consciousness and creativity just kind of rises up in me that I don't have to work for.

That's awesome. Great answer. Thank you for that very next question. What is a business or personal development book that's made the biggest impact on your life?

Oh, so one of my favorites is Steven Pressfield. It's the war of Art. Oh, my gosh, that book is phenomenal.

It's like I read it at least once a year. Love picking it up.

And I love that book because you can pick it up and you could just read a passage and it will take your butt, get your head straight, get you back in the game ASAP. So good.

Brandon went gaga over that book, just by the way, with it.

I love that book. I love that book. Yes, definitely my type anyway. All right. When you're not helping sixty four thousand people graduate from high school, improve their lives writing best selling book, Suck it Oprah. Talking to Oprah. Yeah, exactly. Teaching Brandon not your thing or two about belief system. What are some of your hobbies?

So I love to cook. Hmm. I also I actually really love cleaning and organizing. I like love de cluttering stuff. And I Josh, my partner, he's always like, what are you like? There's always a new zone for me to tear something apart, put it back together, make it better, make it more beautiful. And I like zombie movies and when we can be back in the world, roller coasters and theme parks.

Yeah, yeah. I miss I miss theme parks. I got a little four year old daughter now and I'm super excited to take her to Disney World, but like, I don't want to do it now.

Yeah, I feel like this is going to be like my year. This is like the prime like Princess year. And I'm like, oh, she'll still love it.

Yes, we will get she'll still have it. Totally. Yeah. All right. Last question from me.

What do you think separates successful entrepreneurs and business owners from those who give up, fail or just never get started?

Hmm.

And obviously there's a million things, but yeah, one piece of advice. I'll pick one. I think one of the most important things is to constantly learn and train yourself to be a better marketer. To be really honest with you, I think people fall in love with their products so much, but they forget that they need to fall in love with their customer and how they message them and reach them. And all of that has to do with marketing.

And it's actually all about becoming a better communicator and a better human. So I think that might be one of the things, because I've seen so many talented, gifted, smart entrepreneurs who have a great product or service, but they don't know how to market or sell it and it crushes them every time.

Yeah, we've had 400 some guests on the podcast. I don't think anybody's ever said that, and I love that answer.

Do you mind if I ask you one follow up question? Oh, please. Marketing. Yeah, marketing is one of those words that is very general. And like Kant is often a euphemism for won't. Yes, marketing can mean a million different things. Yes. So many people hear that word. I was one of them for a long time and immediately recoil at the thought of marketing because we have a bad understanding. Sales guy? Yes, yeah, marketing to me is like sign up for my course, pay me all this money and I'm going to teach you how to make money.

But I don't even make money in that area. I just make money teaching you how to make money in that area. So would you mind clarifying for us when you say get better at marketing, what are you really telling people that they should be doing?

So it's a combination because there are many different kind of sub skills that can sit under that umbrella.

But some of the most important things are how do you position your product or service in the marketplace? You know, I think that many people can have a product or service that is like very meta, right? It's like, oh, my God, I have that thing, too, or I do something just like it. And they're all charging the same price. They're talking about it in the same way. They're trying to go after the same market.

And then another person comes and they can take the same exact product or service and position it in a completely fresh and different way, be able to speak into their ideal customers emotion and their heart, be able to elevate it in such a way where they're focusing on the outcome, the result, the experience, you know, rather than some of the features or again, the stuff that everyone else is talking about. So some of the layers have to do with how you position yourself in your products and services in the marketplace.

It's understanding copy and messaging and languaging. That, for me is some of the most important pieces of the puzzle because words matter. And if you're talking about your thing right, how great it is and all of the focus is on you, if the business owner or their creator and you're not able to articulate the emotionality of your ideal customers, what their fears and desires, what their hopes and aspirations are, you're going to lose. And so, so much of marketing, I think, has to do with psychology and compassion and empathy and being able to communicate that in any medium words, visuals, videos, the whole combination, especially where we are technologically right now.

I don't know if that helps kind of paint the picture, but there's copywriting, there's positioning, there's also pricing. I think a lot of people price and under earn and they never have the profit margins that they need to actually grow to hire a team, to pay people effectively and to pay themselves effectively.

If I'm hearing you right, what you're saying is your definition of marketing is getting what is inside you into somebody else, them understanding why you believe your product or your service can help them, why you believe in it, how it's going to benefit them and the art of doing that better. That delivery system is what you call marketing. Am I close? You absolutely are close.

And I think it's inspiring people to say yes to an opportunity that is good for them and good for you.

So good. Yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic. All right. Well, last question of the day, David. I'll let you take it, Murray. For those that are intrigued by you, as I'm sure many of them are, where can they find out more about you?

So on Instagram, AMREF for Leo, the website, Marie for Leo Dotcom, we've got hundreds and hundreds of free episodes of Maori TV in the Maori for a podcast that people can check out there on so many topics. And then if building a business and you want to learn more about marketing in a way that actually makes you excited and that highlights your top values and makes you feel amazing about what you're doing, you should check out Join Buchel Dotcom again.

There's tons of free training there. If you like the program, you can join us. But if not, you'll get a ton out of the workshops that we have up for free.

Fantastic. Very, very cool. Well, thank you. Marías has been phenomenal. Like I said earlier, your book, Everything to Figure Out is amazing. I'm assuming they can get that wherever books are sold.

Yeah, but the website is, you know, I mean, I want to support local booksellers and independent booksellers, of course. But if you need to get it from Amazon, it's on Amazon and anywhere books are sold to. All right. Well, awesome. It's been fantastic having you today. Thank you. And David, I'll let you close, close up shop here.

Thanks very much, Brian. This is David Greene for Brandon. Face the fear and follow the fire. Turner signing off.

Hey, everyone. Just a quick reminder. I know we just left the show, but reminder a week from today that the show comes out. So Episode four thirty nine. David, myself and Kevin are going to our producer are going to unpack this episode on another a completely different show. So it's going be episode four. Thirty nine. Listen for that here next week. Until then, make sure you guys listen to this coming Thursday's episode where we bring another amazing real estate specific show for you.

You're listening to a bigger pocket's radio simplifying real estate for investors, large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you're in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from bigger pockets. Dotcom, your home for real estate, investing online.