This is the bigger pockets podcasts show for 45, such as the idea, it's an idea acted upon. That is the powerful thing, you know, and that's that's another thing. Successful people don't procrastinate. They take massive action while the people take action. You know, they don't just think about it.

You're listening to a bigger block. It's radio simplifying real estate for investors, large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from bigger pockets. Dotcom, your home for real estate investing online.

What's going on here is Brendan Turner, host of the Bigger Pockets podcast here with my co-host, Mr. David Greene. David, how is the mãe kind of search going? I know you're looking for some.

Yes, it's been fruitful. I got to meet with Josh Talk, and actually we had a good little talk walking around Hawaii and I put one place under contract. I have a couple more. I'm closing in on number two, and then there's a whole nother complex I'm going to start looking at. So I'm going to be in Hawaii a lot more.

It looks like fancy, fancy, fancy.

I'm looking forward to having you out here more because we I really enjoyed doing the podcast with you in person. I mean, obviously right now we're on Zoome. This is great, but man in person, it's a lot of fun. But even if we only get to do it on Zune, we still get amazing guests like today's guest, like that transition.

Today's guest is a buddy of mine who when I first met him, I was like total fan girling because he is a musician that I actually listen to quite a bit. So he is a I would call it hip hop slash rock. He's got a several kind of genres that he does. His stage name is manifest and they a manifest banyard on the radio many, many times. He's worked with a lot of big other artists anyway, super cool guy.

And I met him because he was at a real estate event that that my buddy Seth put on down in Tennessee. And so we got to talking and then after, like an hour long conversation, I figured out who he was. And then I was like, well, anyway, so now here we are two years later.

And I've been begging him to come on the show to talk. And he finally came on the Bigger Pocket's podcast to the Bigger Pocket's podcast. That's her name, right? I think I did.

To fill in for Sheryl mode. I guess I'm still in fangirl mode. Enough talking for me, David. Yeah, today show it was fun.

Chris does a lot of good for other musicians. That's one of the reasons we wanted to bring him on, is he's really figured out how to solve the problem of musicians not being able to earn revenue from other income streams. And he's also very good at at teaching. He does some online work where he shows people how to do stuff. And big surprise, he invests in real estate. So we got a lot of really good mindset stuff, a lot of really good business stuff and some good real estate advice, specifically when it comes to turn givers, not turnkey or cash flow versus equity.

I thought that there was some good concept there. Yeah, really good stuff there.

So I'm pumped to get into it.

But before we get there, let's get to today's quick tip.

So one of the topics we spent some time on today was knowing your highest and best use when it comes to investing in real estate, meaning like Chris makes a lot of money as a musician, also in online education space. And so, like, his way of investing is very different than what maybe mine was at the beginning when I didn't make any money. I was working at a Coldstone Creamery in the very beginning.

And so I like the way do it. So what the QuickTrip today is, ask yourself, are you currently focusing on your highest and best real estate use? That's the question for you. And if you're if and if you don't have the means, listen to this show. You'll figure that out. But that would be my quick tip.

And then that's a good question for anything in life, in your business about your highest and best use in your relationship. Are you at your highest and best use? I know this year I'm planning on putting some money into Brandon's fund as well as a couple others, because I don't have enough time to look for deals specifically for myself. And I'm going to make money through your work. So thank you for offering me that. But that's a great example of how to use your highest, best use.

Yeah, exactly. Some people should be out there, like pounding the pavement, going door, knocking. Some people should be sitting there putting their money with somebody else. Some people should be buying turnkey. Some people should be investing in Arete. Some people should be only doing stock market, not even touching real estate. Everyone's got a different path. Only you can know yours.

So the quick tip is figure out what your path is. And today's show should help with that a little bit. But before we get there, let's get to today's show sponsors. Hey, I run several businesses, and when you run your own business, you want to spend your time on revenue generating activities. There's nothing more important than that. Things like Leeds deals and strategy. So do you know it's not a revenue generating activity constantly schlepping back and forth between your office and the post office?

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And now it's time to get this interview with Chris Greenwood, also known as Manifest. And Chris is going to share a ton of great stuff today. Again, Top 40 Billboard charting artists got 10 studio albums. He owns them with almost a dozen rental properties, lives in Canada, but also lives in the US or had lived in the US and invests in US real estate mostly.

So you can hear a lot of good stuff today without further do anything you want to add, David.

Just check out his music, right?

Maybe right before you listen to the interview would be kind of cool if you heard one of his songs before we put Spotify back in and listen to something from a manifest M&A footage of a favorite song from I Like Impossible Avalanche and no Plan B, my favorite.

Probably every time you run. I think I really like that one a lot. So check it out, everyone. And with that said, let's get to today's interview.

Chris, welcome to the Bigger Pocket's podcast. Man, it's awesome to have you. Yeah, super stoked, man. Can't wait. Yeah.

So you and I have been talking now for the last several years. We're in a little accountability mastermind group together with Seth Mosley, who's also been on the show. And I've been we've been talking about this day for, I don't know, two years now, been like, we've got to get you on the show because you got some cool stuff going on in your life and you've got some cool stuff figured out. And that's we're going to dig into today.

So I'm honored to have you.

So with that said, who are you, man? Like, it's just rap. What's this rap?

This rap or hip hop? Like, what do you what do you call what you do and how did you get into that? You know, it's funny, man. Like, you know, I've always been the entrepreneur niche kind of, you know, trying to create stuff from the paper route to shoveling driveways, which, you know, she goes shovel some driveways. Right now, there's so much snow.

But I've been doing music for, like, I guess full time for over 15 years. I was an I.T. guy before that. A lot of people didn't know I was a Microsoft certified systems engineer. What's up?

So the Bay Area. But yeah, I did that for a long time.

And while I was living at home, I had a really good job and, you know, it was making good money. I funneled that into my music career to kind of really get it started. And I went from such a cool place that I worked for. They allowed me to go from five days a week to let me have Fridays off so I could go play more shows. And this was like a salary job. But I was like the the network engineer guy.

And so I had Fridays off. And then I remember I had the guts to ask for another day off. I went three days and then I think I asked for leaf of absences. I really tried to slowly leave. And then of course I eventually quit my job and went broke trying to be a musician and make it music and, you know, figured out a lot of stuff, signed a really bad record deal, learned how to market and sell my music on my own.

And, you know, I just figured it out, went to radio, had some success, wrote some, wrote some great songs. And, you know, our first success was actually in Japan. Believe it or not, I was this close, like like so close, like coming off a tour broke during Christmas time because it was a tour we bought on to. A lot of people don't know when you see an artist tour like they might not be getting paid, you know, they might have actually been paying.

I no idea.

In this tour, I was paying one hundred and fifty dollars a night for a fifteen minute set, but it wasn't even a fifteen minute set. They cut it in snippets. So I was like the the NC performing a song in between artists wanting to get a full set, but it gets even better.

They made the time. Margin's so small that dudes were setting up behind me while I was singing, bumping into me.

OK, and who knows. Like and because we were chatting before. This is David, my song Impossible. That was one of the songs I was performing, like people bumping into me while I'm singing this hit. That wasn't a hit yet. And I'm like, get off that tour.

Just like what am I doing? Making no money could have been making whatever I was making at my job. It's like I don't want to be here. Why am I here?

And you're here for the dream, right? Push fast forward four or five months. We blew up in Japan selling like ten thousand albums a week and breathed new life into my career. Things took off and and yeah. And I was able to continue to write better songs and learned how to market my music and keep doing this thing which I've been so blessed to do.

So before we get into the the world of like real estate and personal development and what you've learned about debt and leverage and all that stuff that I want to cover today, I've got a whole list of things to talk to you about.

I'm curious about this idea of like. Quitting your job to pursue your passion, because that terrifies most people, whether they want to start a real estate business, want go flip houses, they want to go start an Internet, YouTube channel, whatever that thing is.

How did you overcome that fear, I guess?

How did you overcome that fear? And then what about the other people today that are in those shoes? I have a stable job right now. I like this money, I guess.

What would you have to say to those people?

Well, I'll say that like I was married to at that point when I when I quit, I just got married. We bought our first property, which is a condo, little one, plus den. And and so I had that on the back of my mind. And all I did before quitting the job was like I hired some manager, said, hey, as long as you can make me this amount of money, I'm going to do it.

And I wanted it so bad, dude, that it was like like like stupidity, whatever it was like. I just I kind of, like, forced the dream to almost happen. And so there wasn't any fear because it was just like like I just wanted it so bad. Right. But if I could go back, I would not have quit my job so fast, man. I would have I would have stayed three days. I would have taken a few more weeks of that leaf of absences and just slowed it down a little bit.

And so, like, I encourage people to quit your quit their jobs and stuff, but make sure that other income is there first. I think it was Grant Cardone. You don't kill one and you don't like try and build another one until this other one is built, but also sustained.

Like, I, I cut that income off.

Plus I was went into debt and I also bought like another vehicle as well too, and I bought it on a credit line. So I bought all these things that weren't making me money. And then I signed a record deal which, you know, signed all my rights away from my music. And so instead of getting paid every week, the label would pay me twice a year if I sold albums. And so I encourage people like sometimes you got to feel the fear and do it, afraid it.

But be wise, be prudent, plan it out, you know, but still but still Jumpman like you still got a jump. Like, don't procrastinate.

There's a difference. Right. That's a really good point.

I want to jump in really quick before Brandon keeps going. And Brandon, hold your thought. Chris, I want to ask you, do you feel like the decision to take the deal with the record label, which you've later described, is not a good deal, might have been influenced or affected by the emotions that came from I don't have an income stream. I left that job too soon. I need to jump in and do this, or were they unrelated?

The the label didn't give me even an advance when I signed. So that's the other crazy thing. Like we paid for the record and I thought I was going to be a rock rap star. Right.

Like I thought because I signed and that label that did open doors, like it did open doors to Japan and stuff like that. But like I thought once I got signed, like, that was the end of the journey. But what I realized that was the beginning of the journey, you know, and a lot of people, you know, think like that's that's the end. Like now everything is going to work out, but there's just so much more.

Right.

But would you have taken more time to read through it, maybe sought counsel from other people if you still had your job and you still had income coming in? Do you think?

Man, like, I think I I was like driving around construction sites, installing networks and stuff like that. And I remember, like listening to Switchfoot album, The Beautiful Let Down, that big song was we were it was a mentality so much.

And I remember just like driving and just being like, I don't want to be here, I want to be doing music full time. And I remember a manager even said to me, like, dude, you got a great job.

You can, you know, put it into your music career. And I'm like, no, I have to be doing a full time. I have to be doing a full time. And I bet you people are listening to this right now. As far as real estate, they're like, oh, I got to quit my job and do real estate full time. But then they are so stressed out about trying to find deals and then they start making poor decisions as opposed if they had that income and built it slowly and and then without the stress and the headaches.

Right. Like, that's the same. That's basically what I did with music and I made it work, man. But dude, sleeping on the floors, you know, skipping meals, sleeping on a hotel room floors and in the car, driving through the nights like, you know, I would do it differently if I could go back in time.

You know, I just like, you know.

Yeah, it's interesting because like on one side, it's the whole like, jump and build your parachute on the way down. Some people I just, you know, burn this, burn your ships, jump and do what you gotta do. And that will give you the the motivation to continue.

But then the other side of it like that, that that only works. I feel like those stories of when that works oftentimes are the exception, not the rule. Right. You don't hear about the guy who quit his job, built a real estate empire. I mean, we don't bring him back on the show here on the bigger pockets vodcast when they come and tell us that they quit their job and then a year later, they're back working at KFC.

We don't bring them back on the show to be like, tell us how you got that job at KFC. Like, we don't we don't go there. We only hear the highlights of, like, the people who actually succeeded. So it's almost like a what's that phrase? I don't know. Like success. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Success by. So we hear that success. And so it's I love that point. You're making it. You don't have to quit your job most.

That's the most if you're good at your job. Most jobs would allow you to get a little bit flexible with the hours, like a little bit to a certain degree. And if not, that's where we were like, OK, fine, go get another job that is flexible. Even if it pays less money, at least you have the income coming in. Go be a real estate agent if that's what you're going to go like. Sell, I don't know, vacuum cleaners.

I don't know whatever it is that you like, but it gives you flexibility. Yeah. And try borrowing money, self-employed as opposed to with the job.

All right. I've been on both sides of it. And some reason when you have a salary job, it's just like, oh, we'll give you as much money as you want to take it.

This they assume that you're just, you know, and then it's like Fort Knox, man.

You got to provide every single report and document possible, your second child.

And so it's you know, it's funny that you say this because Brandon and I both constantly this is like what would you call a pet peeve? Granted, when we have to do things and they're just, hey, I just need ninety seven. Yeah. Last November a year and a half ago, you spent 12 dollars and 17 cents at a 7-Eleven out in New York City. We're going to see that receipt and figure out what you what you bought for that.

You're like it was like it was like Nacho's like I got some nachos at the gas station. I got. Yeah, we're gonna need to see a receipt for that.

So, yeah, I totally feel you there. It's it's horrendous.

What what I love about what you're saying, Chris, is it doesn't have to be a binary option. Something about when we're in a fearful place. Your brain wants to take everything and turn it into, well, do I, do I live my dream or do I just get stuck in a cubicle and kill my soul as if that's your only two options? And that's not really reality?

Yeah, totally. Man, I was just reading this book talking about how, you know, you're how you choose to be happy now. You know, having success isn't going to make you happy when you're happy. That is success kind of thing. And it's like we think that, you know, this destination is going to make us happy is like, no, enjoy the journey.

Like, you know, I kind of miss the fight sometimes then, you know, you sometimes get jaded and, you know, it's the same thing with, like, everything like your first deal and the excitement and whatever. And then you've done it all the time and now it's numbers. Right. And so it's just it's just different.

It's like hearing a song for the first time.

It's like, you know, you only get that one. Listen, right now, that's a good point.

So so on that. Let's talk about the first deal you mentioned first deal. What was your first real estate deal with that?

Look like the first, I guess, deal we did was our was our condo when we moved into it.

And instead of selling it, we got this idea, I think, from if it was David Bach or some story of this fantastic. Get a start late finish rich or something. I read this story about this family.

They would buy a house. They lived in it. And instead of selling it, they rented it out. And so I think I got that that idea from that. And so I remember we wanted to move into something bigger. And so we just rented it out and it was easy and it was so cool. Is our banker's ex husband rented it out, so we got a great tenant and he was just awesome. Do you like the only time he called was to give us more checks and we had that condo for for forever.

And then we did it again.

When in the next house when we moved from Canada to California, that was a little scarier. And we had a manager for that one. And that was that was rough. The first the first tenant in there was rough.

They put everything down like a doctor and the state's legit income. But he didn't say he had two kids for some reason when they moved in, they had like five or seven or something like that.

So he was a pretty quick what else like what could you have done differently in that first in the first year that went wrong? Because a lot of people are not the first thing that went wrong the second day.

I guess you did. That just was rough. A lot of people are afraid of getting into realistic. They're like, well, what if something goes wrong in my first deal or second deal? Yeah.

And, you know, it's funny, like I was saying to Kevin earlier, is that like, you know, horror stories in the bad stories, the bad news travels faster than the good news.

I think that's why there's this rap about old toilets and all this stuff.

I've been doing this for a long time. Barely anything has ever gone wrong. Like, it's always like it's really not. But these stories of stuff goes wrong. And our management company that, you know, got these guys on is like, look, they look good on paper. Everything was perfect. And I'm always like, it's like sometimes you just get that rare oddity of a person, you know, like you just can't help it no matter what you do.

You could check it all.

But I remember saying, Chris, this is like the story we tell at campfires, like we still talk about that one, like bad Tenez, like Chris.

I wouldn't sell that guy a million dollar home. It's like he's just like, you know, I don't honestly, there isn't anything we could have done different because they they moved out pretty quick and then we got a new tenant in there and then it was just smooth sailing after that.

Well, I want to make this point because I think it's you just made it. I'm going to add on to it. Is that these story that you hear, like the toilet stories, whatever, like even I've told my I've told a couple of toilet stories here on the on the show before. They're like, I've got like two stories over a fifteen year career. That is because I put myself, first of all, into those positions. And second of all, in the moment they weren't that crazy.

They didn't happen in a 30 second story, you know what I mean? Like like bad story, even a bad tenth. Other tenants have had to evict. And I could tell you that once threatened that, she wrote a note that said, if you touch my stuff, I'm going to murder you. Like, she was a crazy lady. But like even like stories like that, that situation, I'll tell you that. That's why the worst tenant I ever had was this crazy lady stopped paying rent.

She was on Section eight, but then she wouldn't let the Section eight like which is like our like, you know, government program, whatever the housing program anyway. So they wouldn't let the inspectors in. So they canceled the section. So now she wasn't paying us. She went nuts, like the government's listening to her through the wires in her walls, kind of nuts. And then we do Victor, they moved out her stuff. She threatened us, whatever.

And then my wife and I actually clean that house off so much like mouse and cockroach poop and then ourselves. And then we emptied it out. We brought everything to dump. We got it. We rented it. Looks beautiful. And Siddarth in cash for the crazy. Now, that took me 30 seconds to tell that story. That that was over the course of a month, though, and it wasn't that bad when I was in it. It was just like, OK, we did.

What's the next step? We got to do this. What's the next step? We got to do that. And honestly, I would have had to clean the stuff. I could have hired someone to do it. I just was young and scrappy at the time. That's like my equivalent of a youth thing. Like you slept on the floor of, you know, cars or traveling. Right. Like when you're in those moments, they're not really usually that bad as a story might make them be, but they make you into the kind of person that you later become when you do have to go through them.

So I just want to encourage people that don't get scared off by this stuff.

It's really not that bad. Absolutely not. Absolutely. No, it's nothing compared to the advantages, the appreciation in the income and like the risks are so like nothing. And just because I read this the other day and I just thought it was so cool that, you know, the reason why you don't hear successful people winning the lottery is because successful people don't buy lottery tickets and and people will say, you know, but but yet unsuccessful people buy them.

And the risk is and the chances of winning are like so small. Yeah. And yet when we say go invest in real estate, like, oh, that's too risky.

Yeah. You know, it's like, you know, I was thinking when you were talking about the toilet thing, we say that because this is the stereotypical what are you going to do with the toilet breaks at 2:00 in the morning and the tenant wakes you up?

And I just thought for myself, why doesn't that stop anyone from buying a house for themselves? Toilets would break in your house the same as they break at the tenants house. Not one person has ever said, I don't want to buy a toilet, my toilet break at 2:00 in the morning. Right. But that becomes the excuse for why we don't. But it just doesn't make any sense. I don't know why I never thought about that. It's never stopped anyone from buying a primary residence.

Why would why would it stop you buying a rental? Oh, that's funny.

All right. So what came next then? You got I know you got at some point got heavier into real estate. So how did that happen?

Yeah, well, just from from reading books and just diving into it and just getting, you know, inspired and, you know, music took over for a little while. But then I was like, OK, you know, making some money. I really believe it's a good place to put money in and to grow your wealth and protect it. And so the last few years, we started buying more properties, whether that was the turnkey stuff, you know, being in Canada, you know, buying stuff here, buying stuff in the US and just learning strategies of of doing it because it's like I'm not an active investor.

I'd say I'm definitely more passive with whether it's the turnkey or just a few here and having different management companies handle it, which, you know, I'm realizing, you know, my time is so much more valuable. So having people that where the deal is already Dunk's, I'm not going to run all the numbers and all that stuff and I need it kind of handed it handed to me and figured out, OK, just tell me they are why.

Just give me the basic numbers and I'll make my decision based on that. And and I'm sure we'll get into it.

But it's just like, you know, I'm not a big debt guy, you know, I'm definitely like that bad debt, you know, but, you know, there's always risk with everything. And so it's just really being being prudent and not putting myself too much at risk and risking my portfolio off of being too hungry or comparing, you know, how many doors I have compared to someone else and over leveraging. Right. Yeah.

So so let's go to that because. Well, let's go to the debt thing in a minute. First, I want to turn to in case people don't know what that means, I want to talk about that for a minute and then we'll go into like the idea of debt and and your views on that. But what is turnkey real estate? Why was why did that attract you?

I like the turnkey one because just the easy, quick turnaround.

I don't have to get my hands hands dirty. I don't have to look like I can't believe I've bought properties now without even like looking at them.

That's like like I like it took us a while to get to that. And I remember talking with my wife and we started doing it in the first one just went so well we got they got a tenant in there, they handled the management, they handled the rehab. The checks were coming in clean. When they're when there was problems, they handled it. And so it was very hands off. And I like that because I wanted to work on songs.

I wanted to work on my other parts of my business where real estate was just something where I just wanted to put my. My money into something, but then, you know, some of the turnkeys and people will say, and obviously you guys will have your input on this, but it's just like I find with those that you don't not you don't get the best deals.

But I find as far as my experience so far, there hasn't been as much appreciation as there has been r y on dollar for dollar invested. The appreciation has been is good, but the Arawa of what I put in versus what I got back was was really good.

Yeah. Yeah. So thank you. Of course we're talking about like these companies that, you know, they, they find the property, they fix it up, they put a tenant and they manage the whole thing. You just basically get the loan. Right.

Like that's that's a majority of your active work. How do you how did you find a trustworthy turnkey company to go with originally? And did you jump around a different one that you have this one? And how do you go navigate that?

Well, when you were speaking at music and money, I think it was in Nashville and I was chatting with Seth and he he brought them up and started talking about them. And I was just like and it was kind of like, oh, well, if he's buying with them, then I'll buy with them.

And that's that's the trust of referral and signing off on I mean, you know, with you guys with bigger pockets and referring, you know, stuff that you trust, like there's just so much power and integrity in a referral. Right. Someone someone that I trust. And if they've got results in their life, then then that that is very strong for me to make a decision. Yeah, right. If if my trust is in them, like when you refer me to something like it's like, OK, well, Brandon's doing or Dave is doing it, well then it's got to be good.

Right. And so I and I listened, I listened to some podcasts, I listened to some got some referrals to different things and then made my decision.

But then but I made it and then and then the first one it went good. Then we did another one. There's another turnkey company that we did. But it's interesting, their systems weren't as smooth, communication wasn't as good. But what's interesting is you don't know until you kind of get into the weeds and you've got to test stuff and you've got to know. And then you find your team and you find what you like. Right. And what works for you.

And, you know, I, I don't know if I'm fully sold on the turnkey like I like it, but like, you know, there's the pros and cons. Right. What what are some of the cons? There hasn't been as much appreciation as far as I can see.

I didn't find the deal.

So I don't really know if I got it at the best market value or not because they're the ones fixing it up. There's not as much control. That's kind of the main ones, because I feel like because the R y is good, but that appreciation man is just like, yeah, that's the gold.

And I think kind of. Doesn't that really equate? I think it does. Well, David, I want to ask you, David, this question, because you're at the real estate agent, somebody who's really good at knowing the stuff and you're the long-Distance real estate investing guy. Why do you think appreciation is typically not as good on turnkey and just your general thoughts on turnkey? I'm so glad you asked your breasts and my face as Chris was talking, I was thinking like, oh, I know why that is.

So when we say turnkey, what we're saying is the property is in such good condition, all you have to do is turn the key, open the door and you're ready to go. That is what, Chris, you were looking for, as I don't want the time and the headache of having to figure this thing out because my time is better spent doing other things with my family, making money, you know, the stuff we're going to get into in the rest of the podcast, the the problem here?

Well, first off, I'll say appreciation is a much bigger component of building wealth through real estate than what most people would think. We talk on the podcast a lot of the time, like don't bet on appreciation. You want to put yourself in a position where you can lose money because you were counting on appreciation. But it is still a factor in this piece. And if you weigh over a 20, 30 year period, how much wealth you built from cash flow versus that property appreciating in most areas, appreciation is going to dominate.

So it's not an either or. Just like we were saying earlier, there's a spectrum that you want to be on. The problem with why those properties that Chris is talking about don't appreciate. I'm guessing Chris is with a bar in the Midwest. Yeah, Midwest.

And and that's what you you just nailed it to me. And we think, like, there's no I'm not adding any value. They're already adding the value they're finding.

It's tapped out values. And so it's like I'm not going to be able to do anything else. Right. You can't get creative.

And because they the turnkey companies tend to exist in the Midwest because that's where the cash flow is the greatest, you're you're inherently sacrificing appreciation in order to get cash flow because and there's nothing wrong with that. That's just where those turnkey companies operate, because most of their buyers want the cash flow. So it's not that turnkey doesn't create appreciation. I mean, it hurts in the sense you're usually paying market value a little bit more. But even long term Midwest does not create appreciation.

So as you move into the next phase of your investing life, we were like, OK, I've got cash flow now. I want to get more appreciation. My advice would be you focus on turnkey properties, meaning for the most part, they're already in pretty good shape. They're not a total fixer upper that have a little bit of meat on the bone. You can make them nicer, but you buy in an area that's more likely to appreciate.

Yeah, that would be like the next stage on there. So I just wanted to clarify. It's not the turnkey doesn't appreciate, it's that usually they're in the Midwest that market doesn't appreciate.

Well, and and I'll make this point to like I think. Yeah. So when you buy with through a turnkey company, like you said, you are sacrificing a couple of things. You maybe are not getting a great deal because they've already maxed like they're going to get their big profit. Like let's just do some simple math. Right. They the turnkey company goes and finds a property for fifty grand. They then put thirty grand to work into another eighty thousand dollars.

They sell that turnkey that property to you for one hundred and it's all fixed up and ready to go for one hundred. Again, very simple math. That means a turnkey company just made twenty thousand dollars. They basically flipped it to an investor that they didn't have to pay a real estate agent for. It's a phenomenal business model. I would love to be in that model like amazing. But if you were to go buy that property on the MLS, like if you're just going to get a real estate agent, you'd probably pay one hundred thousand dollars for similar property.

So the question is, why wouldn't you just go do that yourself? Like David's even saying you go buy one, maybe even ninety thousand. You put a little work in there. Eighty thousand, get a little equity yourself. And for many, many people, that is a great idea.

But for you, Chris, I look at you, I say that would not have been a good use of your time, is my assumption, because you make way more money doing what you do, which is music and teaching people how to make money in music, which is kind of you're like your business stuff then trying to get the best deal. And so there's a balancing act for everybody. This is why we can't tell you you should do it this way.

You should do it this way. Your highest and best use was probably not trying to get a twenty thousand dollar discount on a on a piece of real estate. Yet you'd need real estate as an investment, not as a generator of money or profit up front. Right. Where I mean, Dave, when we got started, we definitely wanted the money as a profit to generate money. We needed it.

And so, again, I think it just perfectly illustrates, like, how everybody has to take a different approach to real estate. And I think your approach is phenomenal. Make money doing what you love to do in business, entrepreneurship, whatever, and then dump all your money into real estate in a way that works for you and your time availability.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. Yeah. Because it's like you got to be passionate about it. You've got to want to do it right. Like not everybody wants to hunt the deals like. Yeah.

And sometimes I'm like yeah I do want to do that, but I don't want to do it as much to drop everything else I'm doing.

Right. But like, you know, I know my wife likes fixing up stuff and we were trying to fix up something the other day to get it, get it rented. And so we didn't rehab. We just have what's the word I'm looking for. We just set it up clean, just like state by state.

We staged that. That's what it was. We needed to move. And it was fun, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know if we want to do that all the time or not, you know, so it's just depends.

Yeah. Well, to further that point before we move on, I'll say I myself don't buy real estate the way I did six years. Yeah. Then I was the deal guy I was hammering to. I was scouring. I got I was so fun getting a great deal because I was comparing that to work in twenty hours a day as a cop. It was much more fun to go find those great deals now I'll make more money, have more influence over other people, be much more fulfilled in the businesses I'm working on.

So I still buy real estate, but I'm not killing myself to get another eleven thousand dollars on that property. I'm like, well, where do I buy the best land, the best area and find a deal to make it work there? And Brandon, you've kind of seen it. So I'm just saying that to give everyone else permission, like we do this to, you know, we've progressed along that same sense. Good. That's good. Yeah, that's really good.

All right.

So let's let's talk about a little bit what else you do. So when you're doing music, but you also have a music business, right. That teaches people how to do music. What's that all about?

Yeah, when I was on the road in the green rooms or behind the stage before we'd go on, I get asked a lot of questions like how are you making money with your music? Because I was always entered it.

Like where I got first was like I thought the label was going to do everything, but then I went broke. And so it's like, OK, I got to figure out how to make money with my music. How does this work? And so I dived into the marketing of it was very hands on.

And so I started getting a lot of questions from artists like How are you doing this? And I'm like, well, have you set up this? You got merch, you got, you know, drop shipping. Do you have print on demand? Do you have are you using Facebook, Instagram ads like all these different things, like are you making money from YouTube? And. And I decided one day, like, I'll never forget I was driving back from surfing up the I five there from data point.

And I was listening to a podcast about online business.

And I and I heard these guys making like money and stuff, doing courses and stuff. And I was like, man, I got I got to just do this. I got to help some people and got to do this. I pulled over to Starbucks, outlined this online course. Next thing you know, my pregnant wife is filming me as I'm recording this course. And I'm just like like just giving it my all right and feeling like an idiot.

My wife's like just just just just just. You're doing great. You're doing great. It's going to help so many artists, like you're doing great. And I was like, OK, so we do it.

And and I remember we put it up online for sale. And I remember we went to this Bible study and when I was at the Bible study also, and I started going, ding, ding. And I was I was making sales on this course. Right.

And you got to understand, like, all it took was a microphone, a camera and an idea right at my computer. And obviously we're making sales and there are a lot more than the ninety nine cent song on on iTunes or Spotify. And it cost me nothing where our song takes, you know, to get it done right, takes thousands of dollars, you know.

So like to get in this business to you know, I write songs to inspire people into, you know, help them and rock out what not and but and make a difference. But, you know, I'm also now making courses to help other artists get their art out there and making a living. But the the entry level to get in was, like, completely different. And so this whole model of, you know, like teaching what you know and people paying you for it, like, you know, I spent tens of thousands of dollars on my brain from courses to books to mastermind's and stuff.

And it's like I can't be I can't assume just because I know this stuff that everybody else does. But yet we devalue what we know. And so that's where we meaning my my wife as well. We both have our Infl product businesses where I teach musicians how to market, sell their music online, and my wife teaches artists how to sell their art online. And so it's something that we've started to do together.

Yeah, that's cool. It's cool because like you addressed it from the standpoint of like I'm legitimately going to help people, like by putting together this course, I'm legitimately going help, like musicians who are making no I mean, musicians make no money. They're constantly making terrible deals with the labels. And like they said, it's a rough life being a music.

Even people you think are like super successful musicians, like I know that covid, like, just decimated them because they couldn't all their money was from travel, from from touring, touring, and all these people that you think are like massive, like musicians and country stars or rappers or whatever, all of a sudden they're broke. They have no money whatsoever because all the money was just like it was a job. And this is the spigot turned off. They had no money left.

So you're like, hey, here's some of the ways that we can make money, not just from touring or not just from this, but different thing like that, right?

Yeah. Yeah. There's just so many different income streams that you can set up, just like how real estate, you know, you get the appreciation, you get the cash flow and you get the write off. And, you know, we could go off the different from from one asset. Well, one song has all these different income streams. Right. Like, you know, from putting it on the merch, you know, TV and film, YouTube, Spotify.

And there's just so many different things that, you know, from one song. But you don't know what you don't know. Right. And that's why, you know, people perish for lack of knowledge. And it's just like, you know, one thing I didn't know and I could have negotiated cost me fifty thousand bucks on a deal and I could have just asked for it.

And I didn't because I didn't know. Right. And so I thought, well, I'm curious who you think like is the idea.

I'm as David you the same question to David, but like there is a glut of really terrible, like online courses out there and the real estate space and in every space pretty much imaginable because everyone read the four hour work week was like, well, I could build.

A simple course and then make a ton of money right away.

Who should who should create like who should be looking into this kind of thing, like this world of I created money online and who shouldn't like what's the best way to attack that?

You know, for me, it's about having your heart in the right place and wanting to help someone get a result, you know, and I was on tour with Saving Saving Abel. Is this a mainstream tour, this club bar tour. And I'm always traveling and going into thrift shops to buy inspirational books. And I found the book Millionaire Messenger by Brendan Bouchard for 50 cents. And, you know, that's what got me into wanting to teach online.

And it was all about making money, but making an impact, like helping people like get you know, if you just want to help people, the money will come right like this. Just help people write like it, make a difference.

And if you do that, then you're going to make you're going to make money. Now, that's that's a good point. I made this point. I think it was like last week on the podcast, a few weeks ago on the podcast here. But I'll say it again and people hear it. And that was on another show recently with a perpetual traffic. And it was all about like getting traffic to your business right in your online business and talking about bigger pockets.

And we were joking about how terrible bigger pockets is and a lot of Internet marketing things like we're just not that good at, like CEO and we're not that we don't we're not technical in a lot of different things that we don't do, like the click funnel stuff that, you know, we just don't do a lot of stuff that we should be doing.

So why is bigger pockets the largest real estate investing website on the planet? Like why we're the largest podcast?

Because like Josh, when he found it was like, how do we just provide real value? Like, how do we actually help people? Right. And like, when you come at it from that standpoint, like it's just a different game versus how do we make the most amount of money possible with the least amount of work possible and get people to give you their credit card so I can just quit my job in Laguna Beach.

I got that mentality. I think just it only takes you so far, but when you just go, I'm going to provide massive value and help to people and teach what I actually do like you and also like making things up. Right. Like I mean, how often do you get irritated from people who are like, I'm going to teach you guys like David Youth is all the time, right? I'm gonna teach you guys how to get rich. The real estate.

Oh yeah. What have you done. Well, I've done two deals.

Oh OK. Great. Like yeah it's easy to teach.

I took four courses from other people for making these. Yeah. But like you are asking the question like are you actually making money with this.

Like do you actually make money from your music or are you just watching it. And and that's the thing too is like, like even me like where is this. Like yeah I have done this, you know, we toured twenty two different countries, we've had success and so it's there. But I had my own doubts in my mind. But it's just like that's where you just got to have the right heart and want to help people. And I love with you guys.

It's like, like you guys are giving away so much amazing value and you're giving away for free. We're where people are not even teaching is what is giving away as much value, but trying to charge for it. Right. And so it's just like how can you how can you compete with that?

Yeah. And I would argue that, yeah, if you want to compete with bigger pockets, which is great, I hope people do, I hope you go and come and compete with us. We do you some competition. You got to do a better job than we're doing. And like in a lot of areas, like we teach a lot of value. So how do you provide more value? Find that area. The bigger pockets is not doing that you are currently doing already in your life.

And then go teach that. If you want to go teach that online and make a little bit of money, you can make a lot of money that way, but you've got to be able to bring something different to the table. And this is a big thing I see with online entrepreneurs of every sort. Right. Like this is when I try to start a wooden sunglasses business. I was one of a thousand other people selling wooden sunglasses like six years ago.

Like, why were they different? I wasn't. I had nothing different. David, what you think on this? I think I'm glad you don't.

So when sunglasses a terrible idea. I told you that when you were they were awesome looking glasses. All right. That looks cool. And I still wish I had a pair.

I still don't get the appeal of put on your face that never, ever if it was lighter than plastic, right? Yeah.

Like light of the lightning. It floated in the light. That amazing feeling like when you rub your face against tree bark and you just wanted that every day. It was pretty smooth wood.

It felt like plastic. Anyway, keep going. Yeah. So I would say my pet peeve is when somebody makes an online course and it's a pet peeve because there's vulnerable people that will pay for it. Yeah, that's the problem with our business is they're so desperate to get out of their cubicle at Microsoft as a systems engineer that they'll pay a lot of money to someone with the hope that they can get out of it and then that person doesn't deliver.

But there's no accountability because you don't know that person. You don't have a relationship with them. You'll never see them. They clicked on a click funnel. They paid their money. And if they get ripped off, well, that's not your problem. That's what we don't like. So that's why it's so important that the person who's selling that course, if that's what you're paying for, does this. And it's very easy to not do it. And you're never going to really know much about them until after you've paid for the course.

So if there's many people out there, I'm saying they're doing this for the wrong reason. They want to look like a big deal. The Instagram factor has made its way into these online courses. And I think that the bigger pockets model has been give value, do it, teach other people, help them, and then good things will come your way.

Bigger Pockets is a very successful company at this point. So I, I ascribe personally to the whole like take a leap of faith, give first, see what comes your way and. Then if you're someone like Chris, I mean Chris, I honestly don't know anyone else who's doing what you're doing. The reason is so important you did this is I don't think anyone else is helping musicians avoid getting taken advantage by record labels where they're vulnerable. You're literally empowering people that are vulnerable, that are being taken advantage of instead of taking advantage of the people that are vulnerable.

Does that make sense?

Well, it does. And this is the thing like the music industry is known just for taking advantage of people, whether it's labels, managers, whatever.

So you're skeptical just as an artist and like I spent a lot of money marketing my music. Are I getting it out there?

And I haven't received nearly as much hate from that as opposed to trying to help musicians. And because they're just so skeptical. Right. Is just like I don't believe whatever, whatever and saying some things that are pretty colorful language online and that's why I like it.

I've already got thick skin because of my music, but it's just like, dude, I'm just honestly just trying to help you bro, like girl, you know what I mean? And so the walls slowly come down.

And I think that's what's so cool about the podcast that you guys have to get to know you and you know that build that like in trust. And I think it was Frank Curran who said, you know, I want people to buy from you, like, get them results first, you know, share something, get get them a results and build that trust. And then they'll want to buy from you if they if they know you and like you and trust you, that you've earned the right to sell them.

Of course, when you've done it, we keep using this phrase all the time and it's a good way of thinking. To me, it's a carrot that motivates you to get somewhere, hey, I want to make courses for people. Great. What have you done to earn the right to be able to sell them that thing? Where's that track or it's a healthy way of improving. Yeah, so good.

Hey, let's take a quick break from this episode. We'll continue in just a moment. But first, let's hear word from our sponsors. Hello, everybody.

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So there's really no risk. Look, you didn't start your business because you wanted to spend time in compliance. So go over to bamby dotcom size BP right now to schedule your free audit. That's Bamby dotcom sludge. BP spelled BAMN and then BP dot com BP. I have a question about thick skin, so you are a lot like a white Christian rapper, right? So like you, you probably get a lot of flak for that, right?

Because you're not you're not the cliche. Like, you know what people think of when they think of hip hop. So you had to have a lot of thick skin. I'm sure you probably got a lot of hate. And then you sell an online course, which is also like going to get a lot of hate. So the question I have is, how do you deal with that hate, whether it's online, whether it's on stage, whether it's whoever you are, how do you deal with that?

You know, in the beginning stages, especially because I did mostly hip hop, I kind of do the rap and the rock now as well. Yeah, honestly, I wish I just focused on on one genre didn't bounce because it kind of hurt me.

That's the power of needing to focus on. It's funny.

I like your I like that you've got between them. But anyway, keep going. Yeah. Like the rock stuff is actually done better than the hip hop stuff. But I remember getting up on the open mikes and you know, going up there and the DJ would just spin a beat and you just go to rap and you don't know how fast the beat is going to be. And I remember the first time I went up to do that to rap.

I was scared out of my mind, like and I did it and I rocked it.

I just ran back to my seat, like like hide me behind, like a drink, you know what I mean? And I remember the emcee goes, you manifest. Get the baby back up here, man. That was hot, right? And so I started that encouraged me.

And so I went to another verse and so I showed up, started showing up every week, but never forgot. One time I went up and I and I stood there and I was just awkward. And I said, hey, I'm feeling the vibe or you guys feeling the vibe. And I remember these teacakes just like laughing, making fun of me.

And I remember just walking and just like feeling like such a loser, you know, and but like, honestly, like any hate, any discouragement. I think honestly, it's it's more in your head than it actually has been. I haven't really had that much where people are just like, you know, so like we were in a lot of Facebook, Instagram ads promoting our music. And, you know, some people will say stuff, but like, I don't know if it's just that I've just built up the thick skin or whatnot.

Like sometimes my mom would be like, I can't believe those things.

People are saying. I'm just like, oh, I don't I don't look at those comments.

I don't read that stuff and just try to be so, so mission minded, so wrapped up in your dream, so wrapped up in your color that you're too busy on your dream to be to be worrying about that or to be concerned about that, because like I think it was Seth Godin says he never reads his Amazon reviews on his books because it's like, how is that going to help or encourage him? Like, am I looking for an ego boost or like like what's my purpose?

What's my why? Is it because of the comments? Like, is that going to, you know, lift me or tear me down? And so I feel like I just it's more of sometimes it used to be the industry people when someone would say no, but I've learned how to turn those no's into maybes and those maybes into yeses. And that's by just perseverance and coming from different angles and making a better product, which for me is sometimes a better song or packaging in a different way and and learning how to sell, learning how to sell yourself and overcoming that stuff, you know.

Yeah, it's really good.

You said something earlier in the podcast that we didn't get into too hard, but it really caught my attention that you were so driven to get out of your job at Microsoft that it almost didn't matter how you were going to get there. And looking back, you realized you could have made it a smoother transition. That is something I wanted to ask if you think that that will that you have the drive I want to make this happen. Seems like it's what got you out of the way, too.

It's why you didn't care about hate that could have come your way. It's why if other people didn't support you, it didn't deter you. And I was curious if this is a tough question to ask you on the spot. I know if you can isolate why you wanted it so bad and maybe give advice to others who have a dream. But there's a piece of them that holds back. They're afraid of failing or they have pieces in them that don't let them really let that inferno go, because as you're saying now, that is burned through anything that would have gotten my way from moving forward.

Yeah, I'm going to get heavy with you guys, if that's all right. But I lost my dad to suicide when I was five years old. All right? So I didn't have this father figure to look up to and be that role model in my life. And so I've always sought out godly businessmen that that were successful, whether that was in books, you know, movies, actual mentors. I've just always looked up to successful men and sort that out.

And I really believe that there is always this hunger in me because it was there because I wanted to be a pro skateboarder at one point to.

Right. And I got hurt and and and I wasn't like I feel like nothing's ever been handed to me. And I always had to, like, work at it, whether it was music, real estate, business. Like, I really feel I had to like like it wasn't like necessarily natural talent or ability. And I had to, like, work on it to make it happen. But I believe that drive came from from not having a dad and wanting to be a success.

And I don't know if it's proven wrong or I have to achieve this or be here because I didn't have that. Maybe it was anger inside, but something, you know, God put in put in me to want to to be a successful and kind of prove them wrong, because I was also bullied as a kid as well, too, and called, you know, you're not a leader. You're a follower. You're never going to amount to nothing.

And, you know, it's kind of like this desire to say, look, no, I am going to be something great. You know, I failed music in school as well, too, and so maybe proved my teacher wrong. And so there's always been this this desire to just, like, push through the crap, you know, you know, being somebody who you talk.

A lot I know you've written books about this topic about like, I don't know, depression is the right word, but people are just going through hard times, especially younger people. You know, like I know like you came from a family. I mean, your dad's suicide obviously affected you and you learned a lot from that.

What can you say to people listening right now who maybe are just lacking hope in the 70s, had a really bad year, like maybe the 20 20 was just terrible on them.

Maybe again, I guess just people are just struggling right now. Like, what can you tell them? Yeah.

You know, as a as a believer in faith and stuff. And I like to get really I'm like always, you know, not ashamed of my faith. And, you know, I go through hard times. I had some pretty gnarly thoughts sometimes. And something we always say is, you know, like, look, a fighter isn't someone never fails. A fighter is someone who never quits. And I encourage you just not to quit. Like even the fact that you're listening to this podcast right now means your story is not done yet.

So right through those tough times, right through that pain, you know, instead of trying to numb it with drugs or alcohol or whatnot, and I get it. I know sometimes having a nice glass of wine at the end of the week or to kind of just relax or whatnot, I encourage you plug in the podcast, plug in the teaching of bigger pockets, get around the community, get around people that are going to encourage you want to see you win, because I know without a doubt, like your guys hearts are and desire to want to see people win with real estate and change their life.

And you believe that that's an avenue. And so just say to people, hey, your story is not done yet. Keep writing it, you're still here and you're still here for a purpose. And there's a light at the end of this tunnel. As long as you don't quit and you stay in the game and you push through this messy middle that you're going through right now.

Yeah, messy middle. It's a good way to put that because it is the middle. Like it's not the end. It's a no. It's just one part you're going to look back in your life. If it is a hard time right now, you're so. Yeah, that was a hard time. But it made me who I am today because I'm a fighter and I got through this thing.

Yeah, it's going to get stronger, you know.

But one thing I heard you say to them is like, don't waste your pain. Pain's very powerful motivator. You mentioned painful things and that numbing them is a waste of the pain. I don't want to feel this so good, but that's it's the fuel.

Right, that's going to get you over those sorts of their obstacles. Yeah.

Paint that pain, use it as a motivator. Like get that get get angry and move, you know, don't get angry and self destruct self sabotage. Right. Do something with it because that is such a powerful emotion. And I forget someone said it's almost like don't let a good crisis go to waste. Don't let because like when you're like under that pressure of finances, money, trying to figure it out, don't wait until it's over because like your neurons and everything is fired up, now's the time to get to work and create and get yourself out of this spot right now.

That's really good.

Well, our shift here as we're moving toward the end of the show, kind of the downhill slope here.

I mean, that's a good way. It's all downhill from here. I want to talk a little bit about the book that you recently wrote. I think it's going right from red to black. A short journey from debt to liberty. Yeah. What's that about, man?

It's all about, you know, getting out of debt. First of all, bad debt, building wealth. I hired a mentor in an Australia. Peter J. Daniels really inspired me as a billionaire. There's a gold bullion dealer. I flew out there to be coached by them and, you know, just to get my money right. Different things and just just be inspired and coached about my business trusts, all kinds of stuff I get into.

But I remember saying, like, look, I want to I love this business stuff. You know, I love this entrepreneur stuff. You know, I love bigger pockets, vodka, like I love this stuff. I love talking about this stuff today. But like but I'm an artist. I'm a musician. How can I talk about this stuff?

And then, like Xman, like, you're wealthy, you're successful. Who else is you know, if not you, who's going to talk about this? And I remember and this is a couple of years ago that we came up with that title From Red to Black, you know, a short journey from debt to Liberty. And that's the idea of getting out of debt, building wealth not just for you, but for your family. And so you can pass it along.

And and just talking about everything that I went through these last you know, I'm forty one forty one years of building a successful business, you know, didn't fail my wife, my relationship still together, you know, have a kid. You know, sometimes we use all these different excuses, crutches, why we can't be successful. And it's kind of like, look, you know, with all this stuff going on, my marriage didn't fall apart and it was able to build success.

And now it's kind of like want to, you know, hang down the ladder to the next generation, help build them up and avoid the mistakes I made.

How do you how do you view debt right now? You use word good debt and bad debt a couple of times. How do you view those differences?

Man, I, I struggled with that whole thing like I've read rich dad. Poor Dad before. I read Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey. Right.

And, you know, I believe that using other people's money is a very powerful tool, you know, and in that. To whether it's to buy real estate, start a business, you know, using that to get started, but I just am leery of the trap in over leveraging, you know what I mean? Bad debt to me, though, is obviously credit cards, you know, stuff that's not making you money. But if you got debt on a piece of real estate or a business that's making you money, I think that is an extremely powerful leverage.

And you should not be afraid of using that. But just don't get lured into over leveraging it to you. Expose yourself, because there's there's always risk. Right. And so you've got to measure those. But like, I'm all about getting out of that bad debt, whether that's credit card stuff, loans on things that are liabilities, things that aren't making you money, a good debt is debt that's on assets, things that are producing cash flow like a business, real estate.

I'm all about that, but just not over leveraging yourself because, you know, look, we just went through man, like, thank God, like properties and everything worked out well for me. But I'm sure there's a lot of people that didn't work out so well for and tenants not being able to pay. And we just can't we don't have a crystal ball. We don't know what's going to happen. And so that's why, you know, it's important to have multiple income streams and things to protect you through these turbulent times.

And who knows what's going to happen next. Right. So it's important to, you know, make sure that your portfolio, your risk level is you're prepared just in case something else does happen.

And for those who are in a lot of debt and a lot of our users might I mean, what's the average credit card debt in America now? I don't know. It's like sixteen or twenty thousand or something crazy like that for the people who are struggling through that. Like, what's the first step to try to move out of that, to move from red to black? To use that terminology?

My favorite thing is to increase your income and increase your income. Don't don't lower your prices, add more value and charge more. You know, how can you increase your income? How can you get a second job? How can you create something, sell something, get that income up? You know, can you sell something that you don't use? It's not making you money. Can you create something? Me and my wife always love the idea of like creating your way to freedom.

That's something we talk about in the book. But like, I think that obviously you can always sell something right and lower. But I love I prefer to increase the income. And that's why by creating something, selling something, adding more value. Yeah, that's cool.

You know, I I'm a big I've been a big attendee of a conference called Schenkkan every year. I haven't gotten a couple of years now with the little ones, but I went for a number of years and it's the Financial and Financial Bloggers Conference, Vinken and you get all these people and there's like thousands of people to attend this thing. And there are some really frugal people there. I mean, you guys know the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, right?

Like Mindy is a huge part of that. Scott's a big part, I think, on and there are people who are just really frugal at that event. And I've always like and they like outdo each other with like who can be more frugal. Like I make my own cups to put my water. And they're like, well, yeah, well, I make my own water from the rain. You're like, oh yeah. Well I make my own rain from, you know, like it's like everyone does each other how frugal and how little they could spend.

And I have always been now I think I think there is a time and place for sure for frugality, like if you like. There was a time in my life where I was spending a thousand dollars a month more every month and I was bringing in because I was just buying whatever I wanted. I wasn't keeping track. I didn't have a good foundation. At the same time, I was making three grand a month spending for like it probably wouldn't have been that hard for me.

And it wasn't I mean, I ended up doing it like making four grand a month and five. Now, I still needed to get that the foundational issue handled of I was spending more money because I didn't know what I was spending. That was the first thing I had to do was I know what I was spending money on. And then like realizing just like that I was in control of this and all of a sudden everything changed. But yeah, like I am much more of a how do I generate more money?

Because I think trying to save five dollars on a latte or twenty dollars, I'm going to save thirty dollars a month. I'm not going to Starbucks Will. Great. Or I'm going to make my own drinking water.

Like what could you build during that time. What could you take that mental energy and go put into the world that will pay you a whole lot more. For example, like I'm not going invest in real estate and I forget all my student loan debt paid off in the next twelve years. OK, you do realize one house flip could pay your student loan debt off in like in the next three months, like you could do one house flip and pay off your entire student loan debt just by generating that income.

While I don't have the money to do that.

Oh, if only somebody wrote a book on investing in real estate with no one loan money down, like the answers are out there if you really want it. Just people love to not do it. I don't know that.

Yeah. Yeah. Like cutting expenses is definitely, you know, for a time. Sure.

You don't cut your expenses, go through it and you can probably find an extra five hundred dollars a month. And we talk about in that book, if you go through everything like I remember we found different insurances, different things that we could lower negotiate. Yeah. You could find that extra five hundred bucks. That's great. But what you can create, like you said, by doing a house flip, by getting more business, you know, reaching more people.

Like one of my favorite concepts that really changed my life was the idea instead of selling one to one, how can you sell one to many. Like I like, sure, like like I'm going to do something so silly is like shoveling snow, I can walk to each door and offer to shovel their driveway or I could walk to a business and shovel, you know, a whole bunch of businesses or something like that, like a bigger contract or something, as opposed to just this small thinking.

But but think bigger. Yeah, right, David.

Well, if you're really trying to get deep about it, this principle applies in every form of business, including real estate. So getting your expenses under control is like plugging the leaks. You don't want to keep dumping water in a bucket and having it leak out. But if water in the bucket as well plug in holes isn't building it, it's just stopping you from losing it. OK, you can you can play sports and play great defense and just hold the ball to the last second of the shot clock and shoot it at the end.

And you'll do a great job. Stop other team from scoring, but you won't be scoring yourself. And I see this principle apply in real estate investing as well, where people that get cash flow, like that's what's going to make them wealthy. I'm going to get rich two hundred dollars a month at a time buying all these properties and you need so many to do that. Cash flow is is meant for defense. It stops you from losing the property.

But like we said earlier, the wealth you're creating is typically the equity that's built in appreciation plus loan pay down over a long period of time. You'll never get through that long period of time if you lose the property because it didn't cash flow or you didn't cash flow. But but that playing that defense isn't building your wealth. So that's just I hit this point a lot because you can get into making your own soap and think you're doing everything right and living on thirty five thousand dollars a year.

You're never going to hit the good life that people are looking for. And the second piece is, I would say, when you're just focusing on defensive, Chris just said, OK, I'm going to keep my expenses low. We're losing all of the unique creativeness that we each have that comes out of you when you set a goal that you want to go achieve. So if Chris has to save ten thousand dollars, he could make his own soap for twelve years and get there perhaps.

Or he could go make an awesome song that we all get to benefit. Right. One to many. And now his creativeness comes out. He does something really good. He evolves as a musician. All these other benefits come out of the aggressive offensive style. So please don't hear us saying don't play defense. It doesn't matter. It's so does it's the first step. You plug those holes, but don't stop it. That that's not going to get you what you want.

Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. Being like mentality shift like completely.

OK, I remember driving to a show with my wife, just hoping or praying we'd sell five CDs that night, you know, and just hoping there'd be people there. Now we run Facebook, Instagram ads are going to be selling fifty CDs a day while I'm in the studio and it's just happening and I'm not shipping it out anymore. It's delegated out.

And again, this is all with like growth and leverage and adding value and, you know, sort of me just being in one city by going online.

I'm now global. Right. And it's this mentality and a lot of people still think local, but you got to start thinking global, like that's what we have the Internet and more people online than ever. Right. So it's just like thinking differently with that.

That's really good, man. All right. One more thing question on the book. In the book, you talk about some of the habits of the wealthy or the rich.

I'm wondering if you can explain what you meant by that. Like, what are some of the habits that wealthy people seem to follow? Well, one of them is is reading, and I've always been, you know, constantly learning and growing, and I'm reading a really good book right now called The Slight Edge, which I really love. And it's challenging the idea of of ten pages a day and just let these these small things add up to a big thing.

But yet we we think they're they're nothing. You know, reading 10 pages of something inspirational each day. But you do the 10 pages, you know, after a long period of time, you've read all these books and you've got all these these these there's this knowledge. Right.

So it's it's constantly learning and growing, like I don't, you know, work out or do the dishes or go for a walk without something inspirational in these ears and mind. Like, that's my mobile university. If I'm going to the driver's license place, I got some unprepared. Right, because I want to keep keep growing and keep learning. And just one idea, like, you know, spend like you spend 10 bucks, 20 bucks on a book and you get to tap into a millionaire's mind for ten or twenty dollars.

Right. And so, like, that's that that's power. Right. So that's that's one of the one of the big habits.

Second one is of wealthy people is the idea of like who they hang or hang around with, you know, hanging around positive people like their circle of influence and hanging around people that, you know, influence them like you show me your friends or show you your wealth, you know, and it's true that if you were hanging around negative people that are always shooting down ideas like it only takes one negative comment to destroy a great idea.

So that's why we've got to be careful who we share our dreams with, who we surround ourselves with, because we want people that are going to you know, I'm always already doubting myself. I'm already, you know, killing optimism myself and fighting my own negative thoughts. I don't need haters or negative friends to pull me down anymore either. Right. That's that's a good point.

Yeah. I mean, because we are like like the enemy to our success is somewhat external. There are people that may want to drag you down, but it's also mostly up in here in our own heads. And so, yeah, try to limit those battles, like surround yourself with people who are going to build you up and support you in that fight with your head because you're gonna need them. But there's times where I just feel down and I want to do anything.

And David's like, hey man, like buck up like you're like. And hopefully I do the same for David and Mike and my other friends is what we build each other up. Because that's what because we need that, because it is a battle and it's mostly a battle takes place in our head. Yeah, big time, like like this whole lone soldier trying to do it on your own, it's like, no, we need community, we need friends, we need to be around each other to lift each other up like we were talking about.

You know, you're doing the jujitsu instructor now. I've got a boxing trainer. And and it's just it's changed my life, like, you know, just by moving and just these one little ideas that were, you know, that whole mastermind iron sharpens iron, you know, get an idea from Abro.

And that it's not just the idea, it's an idea acted upon. That is the powerful thing, you know, and that's that's another thing. Successful people don't procrastinate. They take massive action while the people take action.

You know, they don't just think about it because we all know now successful people. I feel like now it's like we have so many ideas, but it's like, which one do I act upon? So now it's like, you know, but it's just taking that action first.

Yeah. Makes sense, man. All right. Well, David, anywhere else you want to go before we head to the famous for point thing, I would ask you, Chris, is do you have advice for the people that want to get into a community and they don't know where to start or maybe like what brand and I get a lot is, hey, I heard you guys say that you need to increase the people you hang out with. So how can I can I just hang out with you?

Write someone you don't know like that comes up a lot. So there's a way to get yourself into that or build that community. Is there anything you can share about what you think people need to do?

Well, yeah, like I know you guys have the bigger pockets membership, right? Like join that first, you know, get on the webinar, connect with people and be in that group of like minded people.

You know, like I have a membership area of artists where I coach every month and like, they might not get access to me twice a month, but then I always connect with each other. Yeah, I always say that. Connect with each other, exchange emails, encouraging feature on each other's songs like I think it was Brendon Rishard had a Facebook live again and he always talks about his membership and stuff.

And it's like, who do you think you're going to meet there? You know, when I went to funnel hacking live with click funnels and stuff like some relationships and stuff like Brady, that's how I met you.

Yeah, buddy. Investors. Right. And we found a common thing with surfing and faith in different things. And, you know, a relationship is a start, but it's by getting out. And I know we can't right now because it covid to some extent. But go online. And, you know, I have another friendship that where I literally paid for his coaching, got to know him, and now he's like one of my best buds, you know.

So it's just like like if you want to be around people like they are, people hire the coaching.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like be the quote of the day. If you want to be around people be around people like it's like be intentional about it.

Like actually really I'm going to be a teacher that says that what I like when people take that approach but I like the most is instead of someone going, I mean it's good to go and say, hey, I want to accomplish this, can you help me? There's nothing wrong with that. It's better to go to someone and say, what do you want to accomplish and how can I help you? That tends to open the door to get now with that person even wants to hang out with you.

And I'd say that's the mistake a lot of people make is they go, well, Brandon and David said, I need to do this. So, hey, can you do this with me? And and you didn't bring any value to that person. Don't be a taker.

Be a giver. Like go go to give. How can I help people that came from the idea with online courses like how can I serve people, how can I connect people and, you know, offer a connection of some sort as opposed to like, what can I get out of this person I like.

Yeah, so good. Absolutely. All right. Well, let's move on to the last segment of our show.

It's time for our famous for. All right. Let's get to the famous for Chris. The same for questions about every guest every week. So No. One, what is your all time favorite real estate related book?

Well, besides rich dad, poor dad. I'm going to say I read this book in Mexico last year and it's money. People deal, buy stuff in ardeo rest in peace.

I really like that. He's a he's a Canadian guy, but I found him through like grant cartoon and different stuff and sadly he just passed away. But I really dived into his stuff, just his story about I don't know if it's a triplex or something like that, but his stories were so good and he got into this deal. The contractor did them wrong and it took longer way over budget, spent all his money and he was always like the business guy.

And it turned out just to save this deal. So he didn't lose his shirt. He had to, like, end up putting on overalls and he showed up every single day until that property was freaking done. And and then he got it got it done. And just and I just kind of got a rags to riches story, but it inspired me. It's awesome.

Isn't it cool that the stuff we tend to like the most isn't necessarily the best content, but it's the best story? No, no stories matter so much. Yeah. Yeah, they do. All right. So what's your favorite business book?

I mentioned it earlier.

I'm going to mention again, just because it really inspired me was a millionaire messenger by.

I bring in Richard because I got it for 50 cents and I'd say it's made me over a million dollars. Look, I've not read I've not read that one from him. I have High-Performance Habits, which I've read probably four times to. Yeah, million. I'm as good as I have the manifesto on what's it called the something Medivation Communist Investment Motivation Manifesto. It's its motivation manifesto is fascinating because it's written like a the it's like a manifesto like Declaration of Independence.

It's like we find these truths to be self-evident, like the whole book is written that way. It's unlike any book I've ever read. But anyway, Brendan is an awesome dude. We're actually we're in chatting with him to get him on the show. I mean, he wants to we just haven't nailed down specific yet.

So we'll get there. Yeah. We'll get Brendan on the Bigger Pockets podcast because he's a cool guy. All right.

Thanks for sharing that. What are some of your hobbies?

Surfing, skateboarding and now. Now boxing. Not because I want to fight, but just because it's fun hitting things. And it's also get me in shape, man. And my wife's freaking exhausting.

It is what it is.

Yeah, this sounds super lame, but have you ever done the boxing on the Occulus Quest, like on a virtual reality boxing game?

No, it's it's it's the best workout you can do on a virtual reality game. I've done a lot of different workouts in my oculist Tabernacles Quest, but like the boxing games, there's one called Throw the Fight. Like you are just pouring sweat. So I'm assuming if you're actually hitting something that's even better.

So that's it. It's so good. It's so good that my trainer is like he's like, OK, man, you're just going to you're got to try and hit me like seriously like full out try and hit me. And like this is like I'm just learning right. Samani like OK. Like you like really. You want me to try and hit you dude. And like so I started trying, I got them once in the stomach. It's like, oh you're listening.

But then he went at me like I was like whoa whoa, whoa. Tough out. That's funny.

Like that's awesome. All right. My final question then. What do you believe separates successful real estate investors and anybody successful from those who give up fail or never get started?

Man, resilience, perseverance and taking action. You know, you've got to take action. You've got you've got to get in the game.

You've got to start. You know, me and my wife, like this one condo that did so good, like more than doubled in appreciation. Or if you're saying she got two of them. Yeah.

You know, she got three of those. It's like and that's like feels like I should have got should I one more all in like just you know, just go all in and start.

Yeah. So that that's funny. You say that it's unrelated but I'll say this anyway. When I moved to Hawaii we had a house in Great Harbor, Washington, where we lived. And when we bought it, it was the most expensive house in town. It was like two hundred and eighty thousand dollars. And it was like it really pushed me to buy that house, like, I mean, like it stretched me to buy it.

So then we sold it, you know, two and half years later, another four, three, and it was three hundred eighty thousand. Right. When I moved to Hawaii, I sold it at the time we were debating, should we keep it? Should we sell it? And this is two years ago now. So we keep it, resell it. We're we're like top of the market, 380 we got for it. Like we made a hundred grand and then it went on the market again.

The people who bought it must now two years later, it's from the market for like five ninety five or something.

I'm like, oh it's like so much money. Like if I held it like two more, you know, there's no way of knowing that. But yeah, they always say, I've heard that many old real estate investors say I regret every deal I ever sold and now I'm looking. I'm like I regret every property I ever sold. And now I'm like, yeah, I regret I think I regret most. There's one that I just hated. But even that one twenty years from now, probably like I could have survived, I could have held that one and had a quarter million dollars is true.

Oh. So you never ever ever hear someone that's done it for 30, 40, 50 years. They're like, man, I really wish I would have sold that thing in the 70s.

That's good, man. That's so much wisdom in that right there. It's so true. I can think of another culture, what we like. Yeah.

Wish we didn't sell and we sold it before and then like we had it for years actually is the first car when we moved into and then we sold it in literally like two or three months. The market just goes poof. And I'm just like, but we had it like, oh you just don't know.

Yep.

I also have never heard a person who bought a house that didn't think it was too expensive when they were buying it. That's the other piece, right, Brad? And you said that it always seems like this is the most expensive house in town. I could never I mean, every single time people say, well, isn't the market going to crash or what? It's crashing. Isn't it going to go down more? It's all the way down. Well, how long should I wait before it comes back?

There's always a reason not to buy real estate. And even though we're experienced, I tell myself this all the time. I'm looking at new houses now and they're they're expensive. They're somewhere between one point five and one point eight. And I have those same thoughts in my head and I fight every day. Nope. Shut up, David. It's what it's worth. Three billion. You're not going to be worried about the fact it was worth one point five.

You know, you just that's a struggle everyone has to go through in this game and just got to remind yourself that holding it for a long period of time is the best thing you could do. Yeah, go. Chris, where can people find out more about you?

They can find me on Spotify. They'll look up manifest as far as music wise or my website. Manifest Dotcom, MBNA, FEC, dot com, and we're on YouTube, a bunch of our music videos and songs and stuff and go check out some stuff.

Very cool. I also really like your music before we interview you. I've been listening to it for a long time, so I'll throw in my seal of approval there. Yeah, I'm like when I met you in Nashville, I was fangirl and a little bit. All right. Yeah, I might have made it.

I don't wanna make it seem that way at the time, but I'd like to call my wife later. Like, you have no idea who I just met.

So, you know, it's a big deal.

So, yeah, you're a musician and a good friend, so I appreciate you. The book read to Black. Where do they get it?

Yeah, you got a manifest dot com forward slash from red to black or just manifest dotcom. It's free, actually. Just pay the shipping and handling the inner little funnel there or whatever. But yeah, if I want to get this message out there, I love it, dude.

Well, thank you. I appreciate you and appreciate all the help you've given me over the last couple of years. I've been talking regularly. It's a it's been nice just to get to know you better. Yeah, you too man. Hope to hope to visit out there and hang out. It's been too long. Yeah. Yeah. We'll go surfing.

You can show me how good you are compared to how bad I am. I don't believe that. All right.

Take care, Davey. You want to get out of here. Thank you very much, Chris. This is David Green for Brandon Fangirl Turner signing off.

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