Welcome to Brutally Anna, a podcast about finding love, losing love, and all the things we think about but don't talk about enough. I'm your host, Anna Kai, aka maybe both, across social media, here to remind you that life can be beautiful even when it's freaking brutal. So our guest today is very special to me, Lindsay Metzlar of We Met at ACME, because over a year ago, Lindsay's podcast was actually the first podcast I ever guest it on. And since 2017, Lindsay has been unpacking historically tabooed topics on dating, intimacy, and relationships. One of my favorite fun facts about Lindsay is that she started her podcast after being dumped by her ex-boyfriend on her birthday, which is so rude, and we'll get into that later. But now she's one of the leading voices in dating and relationships. Lindsay, thanks so much for being here.

Thank you for having me. You're so meant to have a podcast. Just that intro was amazing.

You know what? I'm doing my best not to crap my pants right now in the presence of an O. G. Dating and Relationship podcaster, but I appreciate that. Thank you so much. You're great. So I want to first talk to you about your relationship with Steven, which is her husband, if you don't follow Lindsay. There was a really interesting quote about you in today where you said, You learn a lot about life from your guests. And you said, in particular from Jared Matthew-Wyze, he told you that you should never ask a guy to define the relationship. You should lay it out as a conversation. Here's what you can expect from me, and here's what I expect from you. I feel like, and I'm sure you get this all the time, one of the questions I get the most is, how do I broach the subject of what are we? Everything's going well, but I don't want to rock the boat. So how did you bring it up with Steven in the beginning stages?

Great question. I was so lucky because by then I had my podcast, and I was using my podcast as a means to communicate with him without actually communicating.

Wait, that's hilarious because it reminds me. You remember the away messages we used to throw up? Yes, exactly. And you used to communicate with the guys and if you guys are Gen Z, you won't know, but he used to throw up like emo away messages.

Something corporate quotes like Konstantine and love you. Right. That was fully me. I was talking I was talking about on my podcast how I was seeing this guy. I don't think I said I'm ready to define things, but between the poll questions I put up on my Instagram stories and the podcast, there was clear proof proof that I was ready to take that next step. But podcast and Instagram aside, we were having open conversations. And I think because I had just come out of a recent relationship when I started dating Steven, I had to make it clear that I was ready to take that next step, which is a unique circumstance.

Did you communicate with him like, Hey, I just got out of a relationship. I want to take things slow because he probably also didn't want to pressure you.

Yeah, a little bit in the beginning. And Then once I was ready, I was like, the signs were clear.

Was he stalking every single story of yours and watching everything in the beginning?

The funniest part is he's not on Instagram. I feel like, Is your husband on Instagram? I feel like even if he is, he's not active.

He's not? Yeah. He's got a weird burner account now that he created specifically just to follow me because he was like, I should probably see what you're doing, given that this is 80% of your life now. But But no, he's not on.

Which, as you know, is the best. It's so good. But his friends would screenshot poll questions and send them to him. I remember once, specifically, I was like, Is it a red flag if the guy that you're dating still goes to Mykonos with his friends on a boys trip? Oh, my God.

Did he just come back from Mykonos?

He literally was planning to go to Mykonos in a few weeks. And all of his friends obviously screenshot it, sent it to him. And they were like, What the... Can I curse on this? They were like, What the fuck, bro? What's up with this girl?

They were like, She's the red flag. She thinks we're red flags. But how old was he at the time?

Like 29. So it wasn't that much of a red flag. It's borderline. Yeah. I mean, he was single.

Yeah, he was single, whatever. Exactly. He could have said the same thing about you if you were going somewhere. Exactly. 100%. Did he ask you about it or did he just... Was this a conversation after you got married? Just like, Oh, remember that? Well, this is something I've been harboring for years.

No, he brought it up on Our next date, he was like, My friend screenshotted that you put up this poll or something. The communication was always very open, which is a necessary green flag. Right.

Was that always the way from the beginning? Was there an immediate comfort? Do you believe in love at first sight, or was it a chemistry at first sight?

I feel like for women, love at first sight is harder. I'm curious what you think about that because we don't just care about looks.

You know what? I believe. I don't believe in love at first sight. Not so much. I agree with that, but only because I feel like I have been like, and you have, too, through the gauntlet of dating in New York City. And I have fallen in love at first sight because the first date... We've all had those eight-hour dates where You meet the guy for drinks, and then you're vibing, and then you go to dinner, and then you go for more drinks, and then you go to the hookup bar after, and you're like, I met my husband, and then you never hear from them again. And so for me, it's like I've had so many... Or the guy that I was like, This guy is amazing. And then six weeks later, he's like, I'm not ready after love bombing you for so long. And so by the time I met my husband, did not believe in love at first sight because I was like, I have been burned way too many times. So even though we have such great chemistry, we need to see if there's longevity there. So was that the same with you?

Same thing. But I will say I did have intrigue at first sight. Okay. And I don't know if this is a Libra thing because we're both Libras, by the way, or just a intuition thing. But anytime I've been in the same orbit as someone and I've said to myself, this is not the end of me and this person, even if it's a friendship thing, I've been right. I've seen that person has come back into my life again and whatever. And When I saw Steven, when we ran into each other on New Year's, which is how we re-found each other, I knew that he was going to be in my life. I just knew. It was a feeling. It wasn't like, Oh, my God, I'm in love with him. I need to If that's it, I was like, This is something.

This is going to be... Yeah. If it's not marriage, at least it's going to be something longer term. Yeah. Do you believe in soulmates then, or is it more like, Hey, you were in the right place, right time because You were a little bit older and you had, again, dated a lot of the wrong men. You were already somewhat established in your career, and so it feels like there was a natural step.

I do think that he is on that level, but I don't think that anyone has one soulmate. I think we have multiple soulmates. Our soulmates can be our best friends and can be our sisters and can be all of those things. So I'm wary about saying, yes, you have one soulmate because people get so down on themselves if they don't find that one person. I think you can make many people your the one. You know what I mean? No, I totally agree. But not many, but a handful people in this world. And I think Steven was one of my soulmates, and I'm so glad that he is my one. He's my person. But I don't think the stars were destined. You know what I'm saying?

I think what happens with women, especially, it's like we put too much pressure on ourselves to have the one, which there is the one if you're into monogamy and traditional. Totally. Because there's always those people that are like, What about the polyamorous people? I'm like, I'm not talking to you because that's not me. I'm talking about monogamy me in traditional relationships. But I feel like I historically have used the one, oh, my God, the chemistry was insane. I'll never have this again to stay in a dysfunctional relationship because it's like, this is fate. We're meant to work it out.

I'll never feel this way about anyone else.

Rest in peace the years I spent trying to fix men because I was like, I'm never going to feel like this about somebody else. And lo and behold, I did. And it was better. Exactly. So wait, your ex that dumped you on your birthday. Can we talk a little bit about that? Why your birthday? Like, literally talk about terrible timing.

Horrible. Part of me is like, is it karma because I once broke up with someone on Valentine's Day?

That's so much better. I'm sorry.

I agree. Also, it was because he didn't do anything. He didn't get me flowers, nothing. So he deserved that. That was a long time coming.

That was also probably the straw that broke the camels back. If he was perfect and he was just a doofus about holidays, you'd been like, okay, it's fine. I know. Exactly. You were like, You already did not give a shit about me, and you couldn't even freaking get a box of CVS chocolates. Literally.

Yes. The birthday thing, it was actually even sadder than you think because he had thought that we had broken I had broken up two days before my birthday. Why? It was a miscommunication, and I didn't realize that we were broken up. I woke up on my birthday thinking I had a boyfriend, and I got a text from my, quote, unquote, boyfriend, and he was like, Happy birthday, Lindsay. And I was like, What?

Because it was so formal, almost.

Yeah. I was like, Wait, what is going on?

You could just tell. Women just know. Men would be like, Oh, great. They text me, Happy birthday. Probably go on their merry way and be like, Have a girlfriend or boyfriend for the next month. And you were like...

I was like, No, no, no. I mean, can you imagine if you are in a relationship with someone and they text you, Happy birthday, Anna?

I don't even know when the last time my husband referred to by my name. Exactly. If Steven was like, Hey, I need to talk to you, Lindsay, you'd be like, Are you dying?

Exactly. I'd be like, Let me call my lawyer.

It's over. It's not going to be a lot. Yeah, literally just... Fully. Fully.

Yeah.

So scary. Okay, so did you immediately call him?

I immediately called him and I was like, What was that text? And he was basically like, I thought we broke up two days ago. And I was like, What? I I must have missed that because that is the most mortifying thing that's ever happened in my life.

You're finding out about the breakup in real-time. It was terrible.

And then we broke up again, for real. Wait, but I'm curious.

On my Why did he think you guys broke up two days before your birthday?

I have no idea. What was said. We had a conversation about... And he had made some comment like, Do you really think that this is long term or something? And I was like, Yeah. But He thought that he had laid his feelings out on the table. But this is a perfect example of, listen to what the guy says, because men are very literal. They are not having hidden messages or trying to be challenged when they're like, I don't think it's going to work out. They're not throwing a pulse on there. Exactly. When they're like, I don't think this is long term, you don't say, Yeah, you do. You don't say, Oh, he's just being silly. He should live in the moment. No, he told you.

Yeah. I think women, and myself included, are champions at gaslighting ourselves. Yeah, it's true. It's like, Well, he said this, but I think what he really means... No, no. He meant- No, he said it. He said it. He's not ready for a relationship, and he genuinely means that. Totally. It could mean that he's not ready for a relationship in general, or he's just not ready for one with you, and he knows that. Exactly.

And that was the biggest awakening for me, that I was like, holy shit, I actually know nothing about dating. I'm mortified by myself. Let's get this podcast going.

I need to learn. How long were you with him for?

Not that long. It was one of those three-month, four-monthers that are more difficult than the longer ones because they're so quick and you don't really get to see the bad sides of them, so it's harder to move on.

You're in the honeymoon phase. I always talk to my husband about how some of the most traumatizing relationships I had were The one that I can think of all the time, and I talk about it, was six weeks. It was six weeks, but it's like you're in the honeymoon phase where you're still putting this person on a pedestal. And when it ends, you're like, wait, I never brought you off of that, and I never saw your humanity. And it probably wouldn't have worked out anyways. Whereas if you're two years in and things just don't work out because you realize this is not going to lead to marriage, you're like, I already know you have some really weird habit in bed or you smell or you don't wear deodorant. True story. I did date a guy who did not wear deodorant ever because he didn't think he needed it. And trust me, he did. So yes, that was the thing.

No, exactly. Because I just didn't know enough of the bad. So that's why it was harder.

So you were like, natural. Most people go do yoga or they go on a retreat. You're like, I'm going to start a podcast. Why? Totally.

I did it because at the time, there were really no dating podcasts. And I needed something. I needed some solace. I needed some communication with friends that was light-hearted around this terrible thing that was dating in New York City. I felt like there had to be other women going through the same things that I was going through. I had watched Sex in the City front to back 100 million times, so I wasn't getting anything out of that anymore. I just started talking to friends about dating, and the rest was history.

That's great. And do you think that guy that you dated for three months listens to We Met at Acme or knows anything about where you are now? Honestly. And how basically you're like a star because he was a moron.

He probably has before, but who knows?

Who knows? Yeah, who knows? I know. It's so interesting because I've never... I don't have an ex that's in the public eye. I always think it'd be... And I've certainly been the asshole, too, as I'm sure we've all been the bad guy and the good guy in the breakup. But I'm like, it would be really interesting if I broke up. I was the one to initiate a breakup, and then that guy, because of our breakup, went on and had his massive blow up and became the President of the United States. Imagine if your ex was Barack Obama.

But that's how people probably feel about you who dated you. They are probably getting serve your TikTok content and your content in general and being like, I fumbled the bag.

Or they don't because I historically dated men without social media. People ask me all the time, they're like, Do you think your ex-chads are watching? And I'm like, No, because I think my ex-chads are all 85 years old at heart. They all like, These guys were barely even using Facebook, right?

That's so interesting. Wait, let's unpack that. That's a type. Why do you think you dated people who weren't on social media, and you ended up marrying someone who's not on social media?

Every single long-term relationship I've ever had, not including the whatever the situationships, but even the guys that I really fell for all never had social media. And it wasn't necessarily an age thing, though, that does play into it because we're solidly millennials. But if you go like my, bless you, my Bless you. My husband is an elder millennial. That era of people, they were barely using Facebook because it just wasn't a thing when they were in college. It was like, toward the end. So my first boyfriend in high school is our age, and he just never had Instagram. I've always been more attracted to men who are just a little bit, probably more of an, I don't know, old soul is an overused term, but maybe something like that. Whereas I have girlfriends who are like, I need to be with a guy who wants to hike Machu Picchu and wants to go to Izu and Coachella. And I never was into that. I was like, It's too much. Have you always been into guys that are... Because Steven seems quite mature. I mean, he's not old, but he seems quite mature. He doesn't really use social He definitely is.

But I guess I was so intrigued by that because I only ever dated guys who were on social media before him. Just because it's honestly hard to find someone that isn't. Also, I just feel like more guys are on social than aren't. Also, all the people I dated before Steven were... I'm not going to generalize and say trash, but they weren't great. They were trash. Exactly. We'll call them Chad. Yes. They were all on social media doing annoying social media things. That always adds a layer to annoyance in your relationship. I'm sure you get a million DMs, like I get too, that are like, he's liking photos of other girls. I'm like, Thank God, I don't have to think about this. But also, I wouldn't care if he did.

This is a common question of, should I care that the guy just started dating, follows naked women on Instagram? I honestly would not care. My husband had a social media account he was following other people. Did he follow some models and everything? Absolutely. Did I care? Not at all. And I am not a particularly gracious person. I think I can be petty as fuck. So it's not like to say, Oh, I'm just above that. It's just a feeling. I'm sure, with Steven. It's like, if you're with the right guy, it's not like you have horse blinders onto everyone else. It's not like, Oh, I found my person. No one else is attractive. I'm sure you and I, we see men and we're like, Wow, you're really hot. What I've built is better. But go you. And I think this is the same with my husband. I'm like, On his bachelor party. I was like, Go talk to women. How fun.

Exactly. I'm so happy that you said that. And it actually makes me think of another TikTok that just went viral. I went on this girl, Kelsey Kreppel's podcast, who she's great. And we talked about how it's not normal to have crushes when you're in a relationship. Of course, it's normal to think someone's hot. But if you If you have a deep crush on someone else, that's not normal.

If you're fantasizing about it.

Yeah, exactly. You could be flirty with someone in whatever, and you can think someone's attractive. But to have an actual crush is a red flag. And what you said about your husband, what's his name again? Remind me. Dave. Dave. Okay. So about Dave, when he's on his bachelor party and you're like, Go talk to girls, that's exactly how I felt and feel about Steven. I'm like, Oh, someone thinks you're cute? Go talk to her. Why not? It's almost great because it's great. You still got it. Exactly. I could not be less worried. But with basically any guy in the past, more or less, it was always a concern to me what Instagram photos they were liking, what this, that, because in general, I didn't have the trust for them that I do for Steven. And so that's always a flag going off that that person is not right for you. I think if they are liking photos and it upsets you, is it really the photos that upsets you? Or is it the fact that if that girl turned around and said, I want to fuck you, your husband would fuck them?

They would say yes. It's a feeling you get from people. And I think that's the thing. It's not so much about the social media. It is about everything they're giving you off of social media, and then the social media validates it. Exactly. My husband, I think a couple of years into our relationship, he got banned from... You know how Instagram will just suspend random accounts? He's like, Oh, yeah, I lost that account. And I was like, Oh, are you Because you followed all these people. And it wasn't just women. It was one of his favorite podcasts, Busting with the Boys. And he was like, Not really. He was like, I'll just create another one. And now he follows two people, and one of them is me, and the other one is Busting with the Boys.

And he doesn't care. But having said that, if you're a woman listening and you are like, that's a boundary for me that he cannot a photo, then that's okay, too. It's just like, you know what works for you and what does it.

And there will be men that feel the same way. I've met men who to draw a hard line in the sand with what they feel is cheating. You like someone else's photo that you find attractive. That's a slight version of cheating. I don't. Fidelity is such an interesting topic. Do you listen to Esther Pareil.

I do.

I love her. Love her because I think she has such an interesting take on why people cheat. And I've always said to Dave, I don't expect us to cheat on one another, but I think there's a huge difference between cheating before marriage and then cheating when you're 20 years into a marriage and shit has hit the fan and maybe you're going through financial troubles. Because I've seen that with my parents' friends. No way should you get married to somebody who cheats on you before marriage. Never. Yeah. I mean, that's insane. But 10, 15 years in, I don't know how we're all going to feel when we're that married for that long.

Right. You should do a check-in and be like, Are we still happy?

You said before that you were like, If you were the other woman when you were dating, you would have gone to tell that woman, Hey, your boyfriend reached out to me. Because it's like girl code, which I think is very brave, by the way, because I think that's awesome. But also I watched too much dateland. And what if she comes back and tries to murder you?

That's so funny. No, I would only say that if I was unknowingly the other woman, and then I found out. Not if I made a choice to be the... You know what I'm saying? No, no, no. And I've done that before. I had a guy bamboozle me, and I told his girlfriend, and they were about to get engaged. And she was like, Oh, my God. Thank you so much. And then I had another situation more recently where I wasn't in it at all, thank God. I wasn't the other person, this, that. I was already, I think, married to Steven. And someone reached out to me and they told me they were the other woman in my friend's relationship.

Oh, because they follow you and they know who your friends with. Exactly.

And they couldn't get in touch my friend because she's private on Instagram. But you are you. And they told me, and I was like, Oh, my God, what do I do? I actually called her Sister, who I'm closer with, and I was like, What should I do with this information? And she was also about to get engaged. Like, planned. Everything planned. The ring was bought.

Did you know the guy? Had you spent time with him?

No, I never met him, but I knew that they didn't like him already. The family didn't really love him.

So it wasn't totally out of left field. I think it's always interesting when it's Oh, my God, we had no idea. He seemed like the most amazing guy. That's horrifying to me because I'm like, That's sociopathic behavior. Beyond.

Yeah. But that happens, too. But anyway, so I ended up telling her, and she was so grateful.

Okay, so the two experiences you've had, they've both been happy to find out. I mean, I've heard of situations where they don't want to know. It's almost like, hey, they deep-seated in their hearts. It's new already.

I feel like you can tell when there's a person who doesn't want to That's true. And there are people like that. Oh, yeah. And those people should marry people who cheat.

That's true. Because you know what? I always think about it. There are men who cheat and women who cheat, quite frankly, and they end up married with kids. And sometimes they're happy. It's like everyone. And maybe that's where- Maybe they have an open relationship. Exactly. That's where polyamory comes into play. It's like, you know what? If monogamy and traditional marriage is not for you, you should figure out a space that is for you instead of trying to lie about who you are. On a much lesser scale, I feel like I was dating all the wrong guys in New York City because I was trying to be the girl I wasn't. I was trying to be the cool girl. I don't care. I'll hook up with men, whatever. And it's like you're just lying about who you are and you're attracting the wrong person. With Steven, it's like, did you guys talk about cheating? Because I feel like it's a conversation you bring up early on to see where people stand.

I actually feel the opposite. I don't think that you bring it up. I think that when you bring up, if you were someone that was cheated on and you bring it up, it's the same thing as if Dave has a hot assistant, and let's say his assistant's name is Cindy, and you're always like, Oh, Cindy's so attractive. Are you sure you're not attracted to her? Cindy looks so good. It makes me nervous that Cindy's your assistant. You're always bringing it up. Then it literally puts the idea in his head. Oh, Cindy is hot. Cindy's my hot assistant. I never even thought about her like that.

Men are so simple. So simple, right?

If you are in a relationship with a man, it's like the beginning stages, and you're like, So my last three boyfriends cheated on me. So I need you to know that that's not something that I'm okay with. They're like, Oh- What does he think?

You're the type of girl that I could possibly cheat on.

I wonder, why did these guys cheat on you? What did you do? I'm not saying that all men are sinister and evil and think like this, but it's planting a seed that doesn't need to be planted. Did. We never talked about cheating. I think cheating came up maybe a year into us dating when I put an episode out about my past cheating trauma. And he was like, Oh, I didn't even realize this so and so cheat on you. And I was like, Yeah, they were trash. It was in high school, whatever. And then moved it along. I never needed to have a tell all with him about idiots that I dated in the past and how they treated me because that's not the standard that I have now.

Was he in New York for a while before he met you?

Yeah, Boston and then New York.

Okay, so in major cities. I feel like men go through this dating process in our 20s in the cities unscathed. They're like, Yeah, I haven't met the right person yet, but it's been fine. I've just been living my life. Was he very similar to that, or was he like, No, I had a long-term relationship. It was really terrible? He had a long-term relationship, and it was four years, and then they broke up when he had just started business school.

And then He was single for six years, and he was literally just living his best life. What was Dave's situation when you met?

Very similar. He was in a relationship for a year and a half, two years. He said it never really got that serious. They never moved in together. And they broke up when she brought up moving in together because he was like, this is just... He didn't see it long term. Yeah. He was like, there was nothing wrong with her, but I just felt like this wasn't it. And then he was single for four and a half years dating, trying to date, but it just never Because, again, I think men are raised differently. They're not like, Hey, I have to be with somebody in order to feel valuable. So he wasn't in a rush, even though he was 34 when I met him. And so I'm sure he was like, My parents had given up on me because they're from a different era. They don't realize 34 in New York City is 25 for a man. So it was a very similar situation.

Yeah, that's really interesting. I also, during him being single for the six years, he would go out on dates with girls And sometimes they'd be good dates, and then he would never ask them on a second date. And I knew that because I knew some of his girlfriends, and they would tell me this because I actually knew Steven from back in the day because he went to high school with one of my best friends from college. So I had heard this about him. And then I did this thing, which I feel like you'll totally love, where when the mutual girlfriend told me that, I was like, Oh, shit. That's That's really scary to hear, right? Because you hear that and you're like, What if we go on this great first date? And then- I never hear from him. I never hear from him again. And I'm just one of these- Which happens all the time in New York City. Exactly. And I'm just one of these girls that he does this to. So right before our first date, because I had forced him to come to one of my mixers and we were flirting at the mixer, I said to him, Instead of being like, I heard you never ask girls on a second date, I said, Listen to this reframe.

Gosh. I said, I'm going to mess it up, but it was basically the switch of, I I heard that you never get second dates or something like that.

Basically, I heard that the girls never want to go out with you after the first date.

Brilliant. So what are you doing wrong? Kind of thing. Yeah.

I heard you You've never made it to a second date. Exactly. What's wrong with you? Exactly. What do I need to know?

Exactly. Instead of being like, I heard you're not into girls after... Because it's like, what can I do to get a second date? It sounds so much more confident. Yeah. I think that's a huge part of why we ended up together.

Do you remember what he said?

I think he was like, Oh, who said that? He was upset. He was pissed. I think he even went up to the friend because she was at that event and she was like, What the fuck? And he was like, What the fuck?

Fragile male. There you go. That's hilarious. That's so interesting. Wait, so you're Jewish, right? But you're not extremely religious. I think you said before. Not extremely religious. Is Steven Jewish?

He is, yeah.

Was that important to you?

No, it wasn't important at all. Basically, every guy I dated before him wasn't Jewish. It's not that I'm mad that Steven's Jewish, too. Trust me, it makes my life a lot easier, right? I always knew that my life would be easier if I ended up with someone with the same religious background as me. With any religion, really, I feel like that's the case, right? It's just easy if you both happen to have the same religion.

It's a culture, too. It's not just the religion. It's like how you were raised and not having to explain yourself, almost.

I just felt like there were... A lot of the Jewish men that I had dated were not falling under my type. It wasn't the fact that they were Jewish. It was just like, they were mama's boys or we were too similar.

They were like this stereotype or something. Exactly.

My last relationship before Steven, he wasn't Jewish. He was a great guy, but he lacked this warmness that I felt was the cultural part of being Jewish, too. This ability to just talk, have a conversation with anyone, to schmooze with anyone, as they say. When I met Steven, it was truly just a bonus that he was the same religion. But him being Jewish also led to a level of understanding. His family immediately felt closer to me when I met them. I often felt like a lot of these non-Jewish families, and of course everyone's different, but the ones that my exes were in, the moms were a little colder. It just didn't feel homey to me.

Well, I think what is interesting about Jewish culture because I'm Chinese. I've always thought that Jewish and Chinese culture are very similar. We're very family-oriented, right? It's all about the family unit. And it's like, your life doesn't operate in a vacuum. Your life operates as a of your family. And I just find my Jewish friends understand how close I am with my parents. That's not to say non-Jewish people have distant relationships. There's just a little bit more of an intergenerational connection. And so maybe that's what you were feeling. Your parents are still in the city, right? Yeah, they are. Yeah. So it's like you probably see them more than the average 30 something. Right.

And you want to see them.

And I want someone to understand that. Yeah. And they're not like, why are you always going home? Why are you always calling your mom for everything? And it's just like, this is just the way I grew up. Totally. I have girlfriends who are Asian who are like, I would never date a guy that is not from my background. How important do you think that is?

I actually don't think it's important. I have tons of friends in interfaith relationships. I actually have a friend who's Chinese, and she's with just your typical white guy who doesn't understand it at all. It's super not Chinese. Exactly. It did take her a long time to introduce him to her mom. Her dad passed away, but she was very hesitant. About it. Her family's very traditional. He's not even Jewish. Sometimes I feel like it's almost better when it's a Chinese person of the Jews.

Because there's at least something.

We were all persecuted for something. Exactly. You know what? It worked out. They're getting married. It's like a bunch of my other couple friends. I have two friends who are Muslim who are with Jews. It's about your connection.

That's an interesting dynamic. Very interesting. That's really, especially in this day and age.

Exactly. And you know what? It's about your dynamic, your understanding of one another. And I think at the end of the day, it's about what it's always about, where the guy has to like the girl a little bit more.

I so agree with that. I feel like because of the way we're hardwired, Hunter or all that stuff, men have to feel like they can't afford to lose you in order to keep you, right? Where if they feel like they can do better, they will go do better. And I feel like I was in a lot of relationships like that where it was like, I knew they liked me. They were into me and everything. But I always just felt like they were possibly looking for an upgrade. And when I'm sure you met Steven, you were like, Wow, this guy thinks I'm God's gift to man. You need that. You need it.

You need it. Your man has to feel so lucky to have you. He has to literally wake up every day and kiss the ground that you walk on because he is so grateful. And of course, you should feel so lucky to have him. But he's luckier.

He's luckier. But here's the other thing is I also think that sometimes women take this because I've seen friends take this bit of advice and think, well, I should date a guy, and I did this in my early 20s. I should date a guy that will never leave me because I am so unattracted to him. I couldn't care. I know, but I did that. I dated men that I was like, okay, I am almost in a way, so out of your league that I know you'll never leave me.

That's the guy that It's actually.

Yes, I know. That's the guy that is like, wow, I did this. Now I can do more. Exactly. Yes. So it's so funny. I know somebody from high school who married a guy who had no family, had a really dysfunctional family system growing up. He was heavily obese and had struggled with his weight all through his life. And they met and got married, and she had a great family unit. They, I think, paid for his gastric bypass surgery. He lost a ton of weight. Oh, God.

I'm so mad already.

And then he cheated on her and left her after he lost 150 pounds. Disgusting behavior. And after her family adopted him into the family, he had nothing. Isn't that insane?

That's horrific. And that's why we do not fall for potential, ladies. We don't. Breaking the fourth wall here. I know. No.

You should not for a guy or commit to somebody only because you feel like they're safe. One of the guys I lived with and I was like, I'm with you because I know you would never leave me. And what had happened was, and I think this is a good piece of advice for everybody, if I were to go back in time and tell my ex this, because he was actually a great guy, but I should not have been in a relationship with him as long as I did. I actually went on a date with this guy, my ex. We were three dates in and I was like, I'm not feeling it. And I told him, I was like, Hey, I think you're great. But I just don't... It's like friend chemistry. And he was like, Totally cool. Let's be friends. And I was 24 when I met him. So I was like, Yeah, let's be friends. I no longer believe that you can be friends with somebody that you started off dating, right? Of course. But we started being friends. Obviously, his intent was to change that friendship into more, and it did. And I feel like I let myself be convinced into being with him because he was a great guy because sometimes it's tough.

You're like, wait, I'm not attracted to you, but you're like, such a good guy. And we talked about this on your podcast. Just because he's a good guy doesn't mean he's the right guy. And I ended up wasting a lot of our time.

When you knew at day three.

Yeah, exactly. I broke up with you. And the same thing for women. It's like, he broke up with me, but then he came back because he was bored or he couldn't find any better. The next woman... It's like, I wish I could go back in time and tell that guy. It's like, I wish you did not try and convince me to like you because you could have been spending that time finding a woman who was just over the moon for you.

Totally. And that's why I love my 90/10 rule, which is like 90% security, 10% insecurity. You need to have that. If you're 100% secure, not 100% secure, but 100% positive that this guy is never going to get anyone else, never going to leave you, always going to be on the couch, terrible.

Well, here's the thing. It's like you are so, for those of you who don't know, Lindsay just had a baby. And you're a mom now. And I have heard that from all my mom friends, shit gets real and unromantic when you bring a child into the picture. Like, marriage actually doesn't change that much. We got married and I was like, it was just a piece of paper. Like, nothing changed. We still live our hot, sexy lives. We can go out to dinner whenever we want, stay out as late as we want. How do you keep that mystique alive? Because you always say you have to be forever dating your partner, right? That's one of your, I think, gems is how do you continue dating in the mist of all this, in the mist of poopy diapers?

Totally. It is hard, and I will say, if you are in a couple and you guys already have some issues, do not bring a baby into your relationship. Do not, because you have to be so solid before you have a baby, it is crazy because it will test the shit out of your relationship. And you will all of a sudden bicker about things that... It just happens. It's just the natural progression. And especially in the newborn where we're in now, we are in it, and we're going to get out of it, and we're going to be sexier again. And we're still sexy sometimes, right? But last night was a perfect example. We went on a date night for the first time since we started with our nanny, and it was the first time that we were out, the two of us. And of course, we're checking the monitor most of the date. And I'm like, Are we going to be doing this every time we have a date night? Because then why are we going on a date night? You know what I mean? Exactly. We were laughing. And we were laughing and we were like, For a little bit, yeah, we are.

That's just what it is. But I think you just have to block, not block the baby out, pretend they don't exist, but when you're actually having the physical act of sex, you cannot be thinking about your baby. You have to be thinking about your partner. You just have to.

It's like presence, right? It's like how people are saying, be present when you're with friends or whatever. Be present with your husband. And I think so many people take each other for granted once they get into a very comfortable relationships phase or once they get married or once they have a kid, that it's like you're no longer present. And then people 10 years that are like, why don't we talk anymore? It's because we don't know how to sit together without looking at our phones and being like, Oh, what's going on?

Exactly. Yes. Stay present with your partner. And if you can afford childcare, use that to your advantage to do things that still make you feel sexy and feel like yourself, like going to a workout class or getting a facial or your husband to the gym or whatever it is that still makes you feel good and feel like yourself.

Do you guys have, now that you have a nanny, I know this is all very new. So are you trying to incorporate weekly date nights on a schedule, or is it more just like, Let's just see how this goes.

Totally. Let's just see how it goes. I am not into this scheduled weekly date night. I just don't. I think that's unsexy. And I have friends that do it and it works for them. And there's no hate for that. If it works for you, amazing. If it's so hard to find a night, then that's what you need. You need to have that night, right? And it's important to you. For us, if something comes up, we'll go and we'll run with it. But we're not scheduling those things.

You're both more spontaneous.

Exactly. And especially when it comes to sex, I cannot be scheduling that shit.

Yeah. Well, here's the thing. I wanted to talk to you about this because you've talked about this a lot, but I'm curious to talk to you one-on-one. You went through IVF, and I'm sure to get to that point, you were not going through IVF because you were young when you started trying to have a kid. And so I've heard from my friends who've had babies, when you start trying, it is incredibly unsexy because you do have to have sex on a schedule because there's basically two days a month that women can get pregnant. And so it's always funny. It's like, oh, when people get accidentally pregnant, it's like they just happen to have sex on those two days.

Yeah, it's crazy.

What was that? Did you guys definitively start trying or were you just like, I'm just going to get off birth control and let's see.

It's like we started being like, I'm going to get off birth control. And then very quickly, I was like, Okay, let's figure this out. It was a little different. You weren't getting Because I wasn't getting my period.

You weren't getting your period. And so you knew something was wrong.

I knew something was wrong, but it was funny because every time I didn't get my period that month, I was like, I'm pregnant. I was so delusional and positive. I was like, Oh, it's just because I'm pregnant. It's not because I'm like, something's wrong with That's so optimistic. I love that. Right? So delusionally optimistic. Then eventually, we actually ended up doing these trigger shots which trigger ovulation. Then you have to have sex in a little window. I would literally be like, Get hard, Let's go.

And he was like, I hate this.

And he was like, Do you realize that that's not how it works? That is not how it works.

You're pulling a pornhub. Like, look at this.

No, fully. I'm like, Please go do something and then come back hard. I cannot. This is not It's your problem. It's yours. I'm ready. You need to be ready. And it just was so not hot.

I know. And that's so rough.

I never want to do that again.

I know. Well, I mean, it's too soon to ask about the second kid, but are you?

No, no, no. It's not too soon. For me, I'm an open book, but we definitely want another one, maybe three, God willing, that the second one works. So we'll see, but we're not doing it anytime soon.

Okay. Right. Yeah. Now, you're like, Let me just keep alive first. Exactly. And then figure it out. I've had girlfriends who say IVF was fine. I've had girlfriends say IVF was worse than pregnancy. What was your whole process with that?

My egg retrieval was really painful for me because I have PCOS, I had this thing called OHSS, which is over hyper stimulation. I had too many eggs, but that doesn't mean good eggs, just like an overproduction. Exactly. Because with PCOS, that's what it is. It's too much production of eggs. I ended up getting so large from that whole process that I was swollen and in a lot of pain and could barely walk after. That was the hardest part of IVF. Everything else was fine. And standard, I was fine with the shots. The shots on my butt were even fine. I mean, they were annoying, but I got used to them eventually.

Okay. So it It was more like the side effects of everything you were struggling with. Is the PCOS what caused your infertility? Because I don't know too much about, and I will at some point, because Dave and I are talking about starting a family. And it's like, you don't know you have problems until you do. You don't. I don't know how it's going to go. I do know I have a very regular period. It's great. But I also remember you saying on a podcast, you were saying that I've been on birth control since I was 15 because your mom was pretty forward-thinking. So it's like you never knew. I never knew. What would have been the norm? And I've never really been on birth control, say, for a few years here and there.

That is amazing. And you are in such a good setup to start a family if you want to do that and when you're ready. For me and for Anyone who wants to have a family, if you don't have a regular period, that is something you need to look into. And if you don't know if you have a regular period, you should go off birth control and use protection another way for at least a few months to find out if you do. That's the most important thing and my biggest piece of advice. I have so many women who have reached out to me being like, I never cared that my period was irregular. And thank God, I heard your story and I went in and I have X, Y, and Z, and now I know. I feel like it's so important to just check yourself out.

Do you think, because I feel like there's this new, and it could be a conspiracy theory, like school of thought that likes being on birth control for too long. Because I feel like our generation of women were the first generation to really be on birth control for 15 years, and now we're all at the age where we're trying to get pregnant and start families. Do you think that affects your ability to get pregnant when you want to be because your body is just so accustomed to being like a barren desert for 15 years?

I don't know if it actually does. I had a woman come on my podcast who's a hormone expert, and she said it does. Then I had a fertility doctor come on my podcast, and she said it doesn't. There's so much information out there, and you have to take what you want with a grain of salt, whether it's you want to believe a doctor or a hormone expert, an endocrinologist, whatever it is. But I personally don't think that birth control was the reason. I think that maybe it didn't help, but I think it was masking. It was just a mask.

It was masking the real issue.

I think probably the real reason that so many people have PCS nowadays is whatever we put in our bodies, which I'm not stopping anytime soon. I love you Diet Coke. I love you Ticken Fingers.

Well, it's the same conversation around why are so many young people getting cancer these days? Most recently, Olivia Munn got breast cancer at 40. That's very young.

Yeah, they just changed the age that we have to check ourselves out for breast cancer.

We were talking about this. I was on a brand trip in France a couple of weeks ago, and I was eating fruit there, and I was like, why does this fruit taste so good?

So much better. Everything's better there.

I had a straw. I literally people were like, oh, what was the best thing you ate in France? Because I'd never gone, right? And I have not spent much time in Europe prior doing this job. And people had always talked about the food in Europe, and I was like, I don't really get it. I feel like we have pretty good... I was like, New York City has the best food in the world, which I still... We have great food here. But I literally was like, the best thing I ate in France was a strawberry. Yeah. And it was so small. I was like, What are these tiny strawberries? Because they haven't been genetically modified. They haven't had all these hormones pumped into them to make them not spotty. I was like, This is the sweetest thing I have ever were tasted. And I was like, We are dying from our food, even our dogs. It's like, I am crazy. I now cook for our dog. She does not eat any dog food other than a few treats here and there, because I think the reason why dogs have such a... Especially goldens and everything, they have such a high recurrence of cancer is because...

Sorry, guys, I'm not trying to shame any dog moms because I realize this is not practical for most people. But kibble is like, I think the advent of these fresh food dog companies is just like, because kibble... Imagine eating burnt pellets your entire life as a human. That's so sad. And we're surprised that our dogs are prematurely getting cancer at eight. I'm like, What's in kibble?

I don't know. No, that's a good point. And you're going to be a really good mom-mom if you are someone who is already looking into that as a dog mom.

I'm going to be neurotic. That's actually what I'm scared about. How do you feel like... Because you've talked so openly about mental health and everything, but how do you feel about mental health now that you're a mom? Because it's not just you worrying about you. You have this thing that I assume you're like, I would give my life for you right now. How is it? I just feel like people either go one of two ways. They're like, I'm a mess all the time, or they're like, You know what? Honestly, there's so much to worry about that I just feel so zen because what am I going to do?

I feel very zen, honestly. I feel like I've had to give up control and just be like, It's going to be okay. Actually, it's my husband who has the anxiety when it comes to being a parent.

Really? Was it the opposite when you guys before were parents? You were maybe the more anxious one and he was a little more show?

I never really... Since getting sober, I feel like my anxiety went away, which is a whole other conversation. But I wasn't anxious, but I was definitely the more type A control freak needed to be in charge. Now I'm just like, Yeah, he's going to be okay. He'll be fine. Mom intuition, almost.

Has it put everything into perspective for you? Like the things you were freaking out before and the things that concerned you maybe don't concern you as much anymore because you're like, It could be worse.

Yeah, like that. And then also, you have a lot of... Once you become a mom, you understand other friends of yours who are moms, too. I used to not be selfish, but not understand why someone needed to eat dinner at a certain time when we would meet up with a couple for dinner. Now I couldn't be more understanding about it because I get it. Sometimes you just need to go through that to get it. I think also what I went through with a traumatic birth situation with a C-section, that zoned me the fuck out because I was like, I literally went through hell. I just have this perfect angel baby now, and he's fine.

It's a miracle. Thank God. It's a miracle. I mean, you went through so much to get to him, and it's like, you're fine now. I want to switch gears a little bit because you brought this up, and I actually am four months sober now. Oh my God. Congratulations. Thank you. I'm so interested to talk to you about your sobriety because I think what happens a lot is women... I hear so often that I can't date right now because I'm working on myself. I'm not the best version of myself that I want to be, and I need to figure out who that is before I dive into a relationship with somebody else, which sounds all fine and dandy and reasonable. When you were getting sober, you were addicted to weed. So it wasn't so much alcohol, right? You were like, Marijuana was my Achilles heel because it was calming down your anxiety. But you gave up everything. Why not just give up weed?

The reason that I decided everything all at once is because it's like when you have an addictive personality or you're addicted to something and you stop it, you could transfer that addiction to something else. Interesting. So when I gave up weed, I could have kept drinking, but then I would have probably started drinking more. Or I could have kept, I don't know. I'm trying to think of something that I did, but not that much of. Maybe taking a Xanax every now and then. I probably never did that. But let's say that I did that, then I would probably start doing that more. I would need another crutch. And I was like, why do that? I also associated alcohol with weed and weed with alcohol. I I would never- Well, they go hand in hand. Exactly. I would never go out and drink and not smoke a joint at the end of the night to wind down and go to bed. I was like, Why quit just one thing when I don't need... None of this is serving me.

Did you just go cold turkey?

Cold turkey, yeah. What did you do?

Cold turkey. But for me, it was never... I've never actually loved alcohol. I never got to a point where I ever actually enjoyed the taste of it. I just loved how it made me feel. I went to NYU, and this was before Fentanyl was a thing, thank God, because it's not a joke, but it's like, thank God Fentanyl wasn't a thing when we were in college and everything because it's like I experimented a lot with a lot of other things other than alcohol, and that stuff could have killed me. But I remember I don't have an addictive personality to alcohol or drugs or anything. I've tried a lot of very, very addictive substances, and it's never been like, I was like, okay, that's fine. I could take it or leave it. So I'm lucky in that sense because they do think it is very genetic. That is a gene sometimes that you're addicted to something. But what was happening for me was right around Christmas, everyone's drinking and there's so much going on. And I was like, I don't feel good. I feel anxious. It's like the anxiety the next day. I already have anxiety.

I just went on medication a month ago, and it's changed my life. I was like, this is just not helping at all. And it's not adding to my life. I was already married. I was like, let me just stop. I had done that before. In my 20s when I was single and dating. I went sober for 10 months. I wish I could say it was because I was trying to be the best version of me. But no, of course, I dated a guy who was sober and vegan, and I went sober and vegan because I was like, I don't know who I am. Why don't I just adopt your personality? But it actually was great. I remember our relationship did not last 10 months, but the sobriety was the best part to come out of that relationship because they realized, Oh, you can be social, you can have fun, and not be drunk off your face. And I remember listening to one of your podcast episodes, you did your Wedding Sober, obviously, and you're like, I actually can't even imagine what that weekend would have looked like if I was drinking.

Cannot even imagine.

I mean, I was still drinking when we got married, but I did not drink that much because there's just too much going. There's no time, almost, to get wasted at your wedding. I mean, yeah. So it's like you've been so fully present in your life, I guess. So were you single when you first decided to quit everything cold turkey, or were you in a relationship?

I was in a relationship, and I definitely give credit to that partner because it would have been really hard for me to get sober and be single. I have so much respect for anyone who does get sober when they're single because it's really hard because you really have to put dating on pause for a year.

So that's interesting. So you would say probably it is not necessary to be single to enact great change in your life.

No, never. I don't think... It's easier, but you being single shouldn't be the only reason that you'd change. You It can change regardless.

Because I feel like sometimes women do this. They're tired of dating, and they almost use I'm working on myself as an excuse to stop putting themselves out there because they're like, You know what? If I just keep working on myself, then I have an excuse not to keep swiping because I'm just so tired.

Yeah, and men do that, too. And it is exactly that, an excuse.

Yeah. And it's like, you know what? It's like, you can become a better version of yourself while you're with somebody else. And it's like, I feel like that all the time. I'm married now. That doesn't mean I just am now stagnant at 33.

Right, exactly. You should always be working on yourself, learning and growing. And yeah, you can't just stop.

Yeah. So you can date and you can work on yourself at the same time. Totally. Okay. So you're a huge advocate for mental health, as we've talked about. You recorded a session with a therapist. What age did you realize that mental health was a thing for you? Because I have girlfriends who are blessed with literally they don't have anxiety. They think logically about everything. I am not one of these people, and I remember when it started happening because I was a kid and I was fairly carefree, and then the genetics set in. So what age were you Something's going on.

For me, it was about 23. At 23, it was when I started seeing a therapist for the first time. Right after you graduated college. Exactly. I feel like that's when shit gets real for most people, too.

Right. Were you diagnosed with anything or was it just more like, I just can't handle my life right now.

Yeah. I was definitely diagnosed with depression because I had just been dumped for the first time and fired for the first time in the same week. And I was still living with my parents. So that's a recipe for depression if I've ever heard one.

And you know what? It's so weird. I feel like the younger you are, the more you feel like you're supposed to have it together. You're like, I'm 23. I graduated from college. I should know what the rest of my life looks like. And literally, nothing is working out right now. So you're like, I'm depressed. Are you still with the same therapist?

No, I'm not. But she was wonderful for that time in my life. And she actually referred me to another therapist, and I was seeing two therapists at once for a hot second there.

Wait, why?

Because she... So she was like a psychotherapist, like a typical regular therapist, and the other therapist was for DBT, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy.

I don't even know what that is. Wait.

Actually, I I think it was CBT. Sorry. No, but they're very similar.

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

They're very similar. They're very diverse. Yes. She suggested having an action-based therapist who gave me a plan of do these things. Because I didn't want to go on an antidepressant. I just wanted to work through it in therapy. That's why she suggested CBT. I ended up staying with my CBT therapist and ending with the original one. I'm still with her to this day.

Oh, you're still with her? Okay. Have you experienced any? I mean, I have so many friends who have experienced a lot of hormonal stuff after having their first child. Postpartum is very real. How's that been for you? Because you're in it right now.

I'm so in it. I feel very lucky to not have had most of the postpartum symptoms. I definitely had a little rage at my husband, but I don't even know if that's a postpartum thing.

You might have just been under slept, honestly.

Exactly. You probably just need to sleep more. Exactly. That was just a lack of sleep. I think A lot of things contributed to it. I think breastfeeding was helpful. I think having a baby nurse was very helpful as well. I think most women can't afford someone to live with them and help them with their baby when they first have a child. I feel so grateful that we were able to do that. And by the way, you can do that with your mom. You can do that with another person that you trust and don't have to pay. But having an extra set of hands really, I think, kept me in a good head space, and I could see how not having that person would have maybe made me spiral into a postpartum. I think also a really great supportive husband. I think it was a combination of a lot of things that helped me. Now, after stopping breastfeeding, I went on birth control, which I think regulated my hormones as someone with PCOS. I think that I'm doing all the right things, hopefully, to not experience this. But who knows? I still could.

Can you get it so long after?

I think you can get it up to a year postpartum. Oh, really?

Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, that's great. I'm glad you're in a good place right now. It's like, you know what? It's nice because there are things you can do. I feel like so often women are taught that you just have to do everything on your own. And if you have the means to find help, you should get help. That doesn't make you any less of a mom. It's just like, This is what I need to stay sane.

It takes a village, people. Do not be ashamed to ask for help.

In all aspects of life.

Totally.

Do you feel like, because you are so career-driven. Do you feel like your priorities have shifted since having Zachary because I think I meet people from two schools of thought where they have a kid and they're like, I love my career just as much. I love my kid more, obviously, but this is just going to run concurrently. And then I have friends who I was like, They're going to rule the world one day, and then they have a kid. They're like, You know what? I just don't care about my career anymore. Where are you?

I still very much care about my career, and I love my son, of course, more than my career. But the most fulfilling days for me are when there's a career win and a Zachary win. Obviously, that's not every day, of course, and that's very rare.

Some days, unfortunately, there's a career lose and a Zachary lose.

Exactly. One person is going to win or both people are going to lose. But it's really special to me to be able to help to support my family and also have this wonderful child and hopefully more. And I just can't imagine myself ever having the thought of, Now I'm done.

You're going to work forever, you think?

Yeah, I want to work forever.

God willing.

God willing. Yeah.

That's awesome. And I think it's like, I think for those of us in this space, it's so hard to get into this space, too. That it's like, for me, at least, I'm I can't imagine ever voluntarily letting it go. You're going to have to take my career from my cold, dead hands because it's like, do you know what I had to do to get here? How much rejection? And we've talked about this before. And you had no one paving the path for you. You were the OG dating podcast. I remember you saying when I came on your podcast, it was like the people in your life were like, why are you talking about your private life? And you probably think about that now you're like, Thank God. Did you just not feel the cringe or were you like, I feel it, but I don't care?

I actually didn't feel it because it's just talking into a microphone. It wasn't... This was way before it was like anything was on camera, too. So I was just talking into the abyss. I literally did not think anyone was going to be listening to it.

I guess it's also the expectation, too. Now, it's like back then you were probably like, I just need an outlet. This is a creative hobby. It's like taking a painting.

Right. I didn't think anyone actually was going to listen, so I didn't really care. And then it just got probably cringier and cringier.

Did people say stuff to you in your community? Were they like, What are you doing?

Or was it more just you felt it? No, everyone was like, Oh, my God, I'm so happy that you just talked about getting dumped on your birthday because I got dumped on mine. Or, Oh, my God, you talked about having a lot of discharge. I have a lot of discharge. Just people love honesty and vulnerability.

It's like, Oh, I thought I was the only one. But thank you. Exactly. Thank you. I really personally believe that success and rejection are two sides of the same coin, and that if you can get through the rejection, you can find your success. And that I know a couple instances in my life where I'm like, I'm so glad I got rejected by this man or this opportunity so that I could be here. Do you have a moment in your life that you were like, that changed everything for me other than getting dumped that we all know about?

Oh, I'm so happy I got fired at 23 from that job. Why is that? So happy. Because if not, I would be in the music industry right now, which is so different. Oh my gosh.

Wait, what were you doing?

Publishing or- I was A&R, music publishing. I would not be a happy camper, I don't think.

Yeah. Also, I don't know if that industry is doing amazingly well.

Yeah, it's very cutthroat, too.

It's very cutthroat. Okay. Why did they fire you? Do you know?

Oh, do I know? I don't even know if I'm allowed to talk about this. I've definitely, I mentioned it on my podcast before, but I fucked up a really big meeting for my boss with a major celebrity. I've probably dropped the name on my podcast, but I feel, I don't know.

You don't have to. Don't worry.

Yeah, a major celebrity. I sent him to Soho House instead of to his office where the meeting was. Oh. It was bad.

Although, honestly, that seems like not a fireable offense to me.

Oh, it was bad. I mean, the very famous celebrity was waiting for him with her mom.

Oh.

It wasn't great.

Okay. But you were I don't know. I feel like people need grace.

I wouldn't hire a 23-year-old assistant who has no idea what she's doing, and it's her first job out of college. If my stakes were that high, personally.

Also, what were you getting paid? It's like, were you getting paid to not make mistakes? I have nothing. Tennis. It's okay. I have grace and sympathy for 23 Reel Lindsay, but thank God, because we all needed you here and not coordinating people's schedules in music. True. Wait, have you talked to this massive celebrity since then?

The massive celebrity and I never spoke, but I've spoken to that ex-boss.

I love it if one day you- I've spoken to that ex-boss.

You have. I actually, the massive celebrity walked in on me peeing once. True story.

Wait, into a stall?

Ironically, at a Soho house.

Life is funny like that.

Life is funny. It's like- Into a stall. But I only realized it was her after she walked in, and I didn't obviously say anything. I wasn't going to come after her.

One of these days, I would love it if you would have this unnamed massive celebrity on your podcast.

I'm manifesting that.

For sure. I don't even know who this is, but I would love that because it's like, I'm so sorry. I'm the reason you went to Soho House. I wonder if she'll remember that, if it was an oops enough moment where she would remember. She would.

Because she still works with my ex-boss today.

Yeah. Okay. Have you had your ex-boss on the podcast?

No. I probably should. You should. I probably should. He's still single.

Oh, that's a lot to unpack. You fired me at 23. I have a family now. Okay, that's for a later episode. Totally. Thank you. So to all the 23-year-olds out there, if you've just been fired and it was actually your fault, there is hope because look at Lindsay now. She's living the dream. There is hope. Thank you so, so much.

Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun.

This was awesome. Thank you.