Good morning. Hey, I think everyone is here. You're listening in to Dateline's morning meeting in 30 Rockefeller Center. Happy New Year. Happy New Year, everybody. Our editorial team is catching up on breaking crime news around the country. He actually felt afraid that people were after him.

The judge ended the day in suspense.

They do end up finding her body, and those charges are up to murder.

Welcome to Dateland True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's January ninth, and here's what's on our docket. In Ohio, there were tears and rage at a sentencing last week as multiple family members admitted their parts in what's been called the Pike County Massacre.

It's hard what I've done.

I am glad I got caught. In Dateland Roundup, Karen Reid's defense team was back in court this week talking about dogs. We've got details on new charges filed against the man at the heart of what's been called the Real Life Gone Girl case.

It's the same MO, and it's a very unusual, scary, terrifying MO.

Plus, a new year could mean an unexpected summons to jury duty. A jury consultant gives us her tips on what to expect.

Jurors can feel a lot of sympathy and even empathy for the defendant while also finding him or her guilty.

But before all that, we're heading to Chattanooga, Tennessee, where a highly publicized murder trial is about to get underway. The mother of the victim has faced questions about what she did to try to find her daughter and whether she went too far. In the early morning hours of November 23, 2022, 22-year-old Jasmine Pace sent her mother an unsettling text message. There were no words, just a pin drop sharing her location. Jasmine never came home after that. Sensing something was wrong, Jasmine's mother, Katrina, and her family went into investigation mode. They went to the location of the pin drop, a condo complex complex where the family forced open the door to an apartment. Katrina took several items she found there, including Jasmine's phone, license, and credit cards, and was left with a bad feeling. What was your reaction when you found those?

I knew it wasn't good.

A few days later, Jasmine's body was found stuffed in a suitcase. She'd been stabbed 60 times. Police had already zeroed in on a suspect, Jasmine's boyfriend, Jason Chen. He was charged with murder and abuse of a corpse. He is pleaded not guilty. But in the more than two-year run-up to Chen's trial, the unauthorized investigation by Jasmine's desperate mother has come under heavy fire from the defense. It's normal for you to break into other people's apartment. How might it all impact the trial set to begin next week? Here to bring us up to speed is Grayson Gordon, a news reporter from our NBC affiliate, WRCB Local 3 News. Grayson, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

This is such a sad story To start, can you just tell us about Jasmine Pace? Who was she? What was she like? What have you learned about her?

We know that she was very loved by her family. Whenever you're listening to testimony from her mother, Katrina, you can hear how close they were and how much they talked. Having that communication with her and her family, how close she was with her mother, was really the way that her mother was able to know that she was not okay as quickly as her mother was able to that out.

What do we know about Jason Chen and how they met?

We know that they met on a dating app a few months before she went missing. They were both college students.

Her mom turns investigator, right? Because it's unlike Jasmine to not check in with her mom.

Absolutely. You can understand a mother pleading and doing everything in her power to try to find her child. She gathers her family, and she realizes that her daughter had dropped her a pin. That pinned location took them to Jason Chin's apartment.

Jason's not there in the apartment, and they gain entry. That's when they say they found Jasmine's phone credit cards and driver's license. So obviously, very scary for the family to not know where their daughter is and to walk in and find that.

They do call the police whenever they find to this evidence. We watched body camera video so far at these pre-trial hearings. When the police go in, they spend about three minutes just scanning Chen's apartment. Then they get a search warrant, and once they get the search warrant, they do find traces of blood.

Police also say during the search, they found blood spatter on the bathroom wall, cleaning supplies, a large amount of blood that had been cleaned up in the living room. This is a very disturbing scene.

Absolutely.

Parents taking matters into their own hands. You understand that. If your child is missing, you will do anything. The defense has made this a big deal.

This is what the defense has been using, the potential tarnish of a crime scene and the way that the evidence was gathered in order to try to exclude evidence from being used in the trial. The defense His worry is that it could have potentially been planted. That's what those pretty tall hearings have been.

Right. That all makes sense from a defense perspective. Katrina, the mom, was actually cross-examined on the stand. What did she have to say about her actions and gaining entry to the apartment.

It was obviously very emotional. The defense attorney for Jason Chint, he asked her on the stand, Is it normal for you to break into apartments? And Katrina said, No.

It's not normal for you to conduct a search like this?

It's not normal for my daughter to be missing.

How did you know to go to apartment today?

Because his neighbor heard a loud, distressed woman's voice, and he told me.

And he heard that three minutes before my daughter sent me a pin drop.

Oh, wow. So with regard to any alleged evidence found by the mom, did the judge rule that that will be admissible in trial?

Yes. All evidence is going to be allowed. We We have one more pre-trial hearing and one last wrap up with all of the evidence that's going to be allowed in this case.

We should just remind our listeners, Jason Chen has pleaded not guilty, and we will learn more about his defense when the trial gets underway next week. This is interesting because the case has had so much media attention. Jurers are actually being brought in from another county.

Absolutely. I really think the reason this has gotten so much attention is because people remember when Jasmine went missing. We were trying to find this 22-year-old college student who had beautiful potential in life, who was loved by her family, loved by many, community, and that really has an impact on the community, especially a smaller community like Chattanooga.

All right. Well, we will keep an eye on this one, Grace. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. Thank you. Up next, there was talk of Satan Jesus in an Ohio courtroom last week as a mother and son were sentenced for their roles in one of the most gruesome crimes in Ohio history. For our next story, we're heading to an Ohio courtroom where emotions and rage bubbled over last week at the dramatic sentencing of three family members for their roles in one of the bloodiest crimes in Ohio history. You You are the spawn of savings. The horror began on the morning of April 22nd, 2016, when a woman walked into her brother-in-law's home and found him shot to death, along with his cousin. His name, Chris Rodan Jr. But they weren't the only members of the Rodan family found dead that day. In total, seven adults and one 16-year-old boy were found gunned down in four different locations, victims of what's been dubbed the Pike County Massacre. Occur. Two years later, police arrested six members of another family, the Wagners, after uncovering what prosecutors say was a ruthless plot to stamp out the rodents over a custody dispute.

Here to catch us up on this case that he's been covering for years is Dateline producer Jay Young. Jay, thanks for joining us. Hi, Andrew.

Thanks for having me.

The scope of this crime spree is really unlike anything a lot of us have ever seen before.

Well, you have that absolutely right, Andrew. We're talking about eight murder victims, four crime scenes. It boggles the mind.

Jay, police zeroed in on the Wagner family. Who are the Wagners?

The Wagners are a large family that lives not too far away from the rodents. In fact, they were friends by all counts of the rodents.

So what went wrong?

Jake Wagner had a relationship with one of the children of the rodents, Hannah May. Together, they had a child, Sophia. Jake and Hannah May quickly became estranged after Sophia was born. Hannah Mae moved out and took Sophia with her. Jake wasn't happy about that, nor were the Wagners happy about that. In the course of the investigation, investigators learned that the Wagners feared young Sophia was being abused by a member of the Rodan family. Jake testified that the Wagners decided something needed to be done. They wanted Sophia back. They decided that they would not just kill the mother of Sophia, Hannah May, but they were going to kill everyone else in the family. So there were no other survivors to seek retribution.

Just sounds so unbelievable.

It's beyond unbelievable.

So the Wagners alleged that the rodents were abusing SOFIA, but investigators found no evidence of that.

Yeah, there was really no evidence of it.

Okay, so it took more than two years for investigators to make arrests in the case. Jake Wagner, along with his parents and older brother were charged with multiple counts, including aggravated murder. Jay, what evidence did the prosecutors say they had against them?

There were multiple crime scenes, but there was very little physical evidence. But they did find foot impressions in the blood, I hate to say it. They were able to determine that the footprints were from a shoe that was sold at Walmart, and they were able to determine that the footprints were from a shoe that was sold at Walmart, and they were able to determine the size. And lo and behold, after they conducted a search warrant on the Wagner's property, they discovered a receipt for shoes from a Walmart, and they ultimately were also able to seize the Wagner's computers. One of the interesting things they found was a screenshot of a conversation that Hannah May had with someone months before the massacre. She says, The Wagner's want to take custody of my child. If they want custody, they're going to have to kill me first.

We should say that Jake's dad, Billy Wagner, has consistently denied having anything to do with the murders or any plot. He is still in custody awaiting trial. Jake's brother also denied being a of the plot, but he was convicted at trial in 2022. A big twist to this case, Jake and his mom, Angela, did something that surprised everyone. They decided to plea guilty, and they started cooperating with investigators.

Well, ultimately, what they were able to get from Jake Wagner is he led investigators to the location of the murder weapons on the Wagner property. That was incredibly incriminating evidence, obviously. Yeah. And he outlined in great detail how the massacre unfolded.

So take us inside the courtroom last week. Who was being sentenced?

You had Angela Wagner herself and Jake Wagner.

Before they were sentenced, the victim's families got to talk.

Yeah, the mother of one of the victims gave an incredibly impassioned victim impact statement.

You're evil. You are the spawn of saints. My daughter was only 20. Greedy Jake Wagner, you. I want you to suffer. I want you to die, so your mom feels a heartache.

What it's like to bear it at all.

It's a heartache that never goes away.

I hate you.

You ruined my life.

You ruined innocent children's lives.

Jake Wagner did take the opportunity to speak to the Rodent family. He looked at them in the eye. I'm sorry for what I've done, but I am glad I got caught.

I 100% believe that it was Jesus who made me get caught. Answer my prayer.

The victim's family's present in the courtroom didn't want to hear any of it. In fact, they walked out as Jake was speaking.

What were the sentences then?

Angela was sentenced to 30 years. For many, it was a shock to hear that Jake Wagner, who everyone anticipated would receive a life sentence without the possibility of parole, suddenly was presented with the opportunity to get parole. So he'll serve 32 years, and then he'll be eligible for parole.

So this all leaves Billy Wagner, the father. He was supposed to go to trial this week. What happened?

Well, the judge has ruled in favor of a change of venue in Billy Wagner's trial. What's happening now is that the prosecution is appealing the judge's decision.

Okay, so this trial is supposed to be sometime this year?

It's difficult to say, and you can just imagine how difficult this is for the victim's family. They have to endure this even longer.

Okay, Jay Young, thank you for breaking down this extremely horrific story and also complicated story. Thank you. Next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. We've got the latest from the courtroom as Karen Reid's defense team gears up for her second trial. And more on the new chapter what's been called the Real Life, Gone Girl case. Plus, what do you need to know if you get a jury summons? We've got tips from a jury consultant. Welcome back. Joining me for this week's Roundup is Dateline producer, Sue Simpson. Hey, Sue.

Hey, Andrea. Happy New Year.

Yeah, Happy New Year. So, Sue, our first story is something very familiar to both of us, the Karen Reid case. For anyone who doesn't know, she's the Massachusetts woman accused of killing her police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe, by backing her car into him after a night of drinking. She denies doing that, of course, and a jury deadlocked at her trial last year that you were at sue every day.

I was, and that's right. As you know, she's headed back to trial later this year, but there's a lot of housekeeping before the retrial can even start.

Yeah. So this week, there was this second part of a hearing about something pretty crucial to the case.

Right. Prosecutors want the judge to exclude the testimony of a defense expert who testified at the first trial. She's a retired emergency room doctor. Her name is Dr. Marie Russell, and she said that the injuries on John O'Keefe's arm were consistent with dog bites. That's critical to the defense case.

Yeah, important, obviously, because Karen Reid's defense says that John O'Keefe wasn't run over. He was beat up by people at a house where she says she dropped him off. The people there at the house, they deny that. But at this house, there was a dog.

She was a German Shepherd named Chloe.

How did this expert do on the stand?

Well, prosecutors gave her a hard time saying that her opinions are subjective, not science. She said, Dr. Russell. With all due respect, Mr..

Brennan, I'm not somebody that just came in off the street.

I I have at least 30 years as a physician, and I use that information in helping me form my opinions about wounds. I've seen all types of wounds.

The judge has not ruled yet, but that could be a big deal for both sides, right? Whatever this decision is.

Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, we'll be covering that. But another thing that happened on Tuesday is a judge sent a date for a similar hearing about the forensic expert who testified about that hotly disputed Google search It was hoth long to die in the cold, as you remember, Andrew. Yes. Well, that hearing is now scheduled for January 31st.

So much going on in this case. All right, for our next story, we're headed to California, the Bay Area, where there's a new development in a wild case from 2015, which we covered at Dateland. It also got a lot of attention about a year ago when Netflix put out a doc series on it.

That's right. Just a quick recap. In 2015, a man named Aaron Quinn told police that his girlfriend, her name is Denise Huskins, he said that she had been kidnapped from their home.

I remember this story very well. Investigators did not believe him. They thought he had killed Denise. Then two days after she went missing, Denise Huskins walked into her parents house to say, yes, she had in fact been kidnapped and raped repeatedly.

And police still didn't believe them. They even gave a press conference saying the whole thing was a hoax.

Is there any evidence Any other reasons that makes you know conclusively that this was a fake? Well, I can tell you that our investigation has concluded that none of the claims has been substantiated.

That's when people started saying, this sounds a lot like the movie Gone Girl, where the female main character fakes her own kidnapping.

Yeah, only there was a big, big difference in this case, of course. A couple of months after all of this started, a man named Matthew Muller, he's a disbarred attorney and he's an ex-marine, he was arrested, and he later pleaded guilty to the kidnapping Denise Huskins, and he was sentenced to 40 years.

So, Sue, what is the development?

Last week, two new charges were brought against Matthew Mueller. In 2009, two separate women reported home invasions where they were drugged and a man threatened to rape them. The Santa Clara district Attorney's office has announced that advances in DNA technology linked Matthew Mueller to these cases. So his arraignment on these new charges is set for next week.

That is a big development. Yeah. Finally, the latest on another story we covered a lot last year. This is the double murder of two schoolgirls, Liberty German and Abigail Williams, whose bodies were found near a creek in Delphi, Indiana, in 2017. In November, a local man, Richard Allen, was convicted of killing them. And just before Christmas, he was sentenced to a lot of years, Sue.

A whole lot of years, Andrea. He was sentenced to 130 years in prison. It was an emotional courtroom. Six of the girls' relatives gave victim impact statements. The judge said the girls' murder ranks right up there with the most hideous crimes. Just before she read a sentence, the judge accused Allen of rolling his eyes at her. It was a whole an incredible day in court.

Oh, yeah, to be sure. Okay. Thank you so much, Sue, for joining us for this week's Roundup.

Thank you, Andrea.

Well, you might have spent the first few days of 2025 thinking about all the new year has in store. Fun trips, events, new experiences, you probably haven't thought about what you might be called to do. With a new year comes new cases, new trials, and of course, new juries. So whether or not you've received your jury summons yet, we're talking with jury consultant an Adjunct Professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, Dr. Natalie Gordon. Hey, Natalie. Hi, Andrea. Thanks for being here. Some people, they just don't want to be on juries. It feels like an inconvenience. I, on the other hand, want to do jury duty. You've, Natalie, talked to jurors after trials. I have as well. What do they usually say after they're finished with the trial?

I can't recall ever speaking to a juror who said they did not enjoy the experience. Which is why when friends tell me they got a summons for jury duty, how do I get out of this? My response is consistently, trust me, if you get picked, you're going to be really glad that you did this.

Let's run through a general overview of what being on a jury looks like. Of course, this varies case to case, courthouse to courthouse. What can you expect once the actual selection of a jury begins?

That process is called voir dire. It's a legal term meaning to speak the truth. During this process, the judge, the prosecuting attorney, and the defense attorney will ask questions to jurors. The first round of questions usually assesses any scheduling conflicts, and then they'll be asked about any biases they might have that prevent them from being a fair and impartial juror. The lawyers will then have the opportunity to remove jurors from the panel after they've been questioned, which is why this process is often referred to as jury deselection rather than jury selection.

Earlier in the episode, we discussed the Jasmine Pace case and how the jurors are being brought in from another county because of concerns about pretrial publicity. They're also being sequestered in a hotel. How does this pretrial publicity impact jury decision making?

We know from extensive of research that it's very difficult for jurors to set aside information that they have learned about a case from the media. One of the main reasons it's so hard is because they misattribute information that they hear in the media to information learned at trial. Another thing I want to mention is that while juror sequestration, for example, might serve to shield jurors from media coverage during trial and during deliberations, potentially, they're still exposed to media coverage before trial even begins. So They can't fully counteract the effects of pretrial publicity on their decision making.

If you are empaneled on a jury and the trial formally begins, obviously, you see the evidence, you hear witness testimony, and then you go off to deliberate. What can you expect in that deliberation room?

What I have seen in mock trial research, juries will sometimes start by taking a vote to see how the room is divided. In other instances, they might just dive right into the evidence and start discussing their thoughts on the case more broadly. Sometimes jurors will request to see copies of exhibits or transcripts of witness testimony that's been presented during trial, but that's ultimately at the judge's discretion.

Yeah. I mean, a jury room, there's nothing like it because you have such a cross-section of people, different opinions, different ethnicities, different ages. That's what it's supposed to be, right? A cross-section of America.

That's right. You actually want that variability among jurors and their backgrounds because you can have more thorough discussions when you have those different perspectives. But on the flip side of that, the more extreme those views can be, the more likely it can be that the jury struggles to reach a unanimous agreement.

If the jury is able to reach unanimous verdict, it's read aloud in court, your jury duty is over. Have you ever spoken to jurors who have mixed feelings about the verdict that was reached?

Yeah, what jurors are asked to do, especially in criminal cases, it can be quite heavy. They appreciate the consequences of their decision. So even if they agree that the defendant was guilty of the charges, they're not necessarily happy about it. Jurors can feel a lot of sympathy and even empathy for the defendant while also finding him or her guilty. And that dissonance can be very challenging to navigate. But jurors rely on each other for support during the decision making process and end up becoming quite friendly with each other as a result. They express a lot of pride for having served and respect for the process and respect for each other.

Well, Natalie, wow. Thank you so much. Maybe this is my year. We'll see. I'm still waiting for my summons.

I hope that you are so lucky. It's a great experience. Yeah.

Thank you for breaking it down.

I'm happy to have helped. Thank you, Andrea.

That's it for this episode of Dateland True Crime Weekly. Coming up on Dateland, we've got the TV episode that inspired Josh's hit podcast series, Deadly Mirage. It's a story about betrayal and murder in the California desert, and a young couple who seemed to have it all until the husband ended up dead and investigators uncovered a web of dark secrets. This case had sex, religion.

It literally had everything.

Watch Josh's story, Deadly Mirage, airing Friday on NBC at 9:8 Central or stream it on Peacock. For Dateline premium subscribers out there, check out our latest episode episode of After the Verdict, when Keith Morissen catches up with Susan Altman, a woman who pushed investigators to take a closer look at the mysterious death of her sister, resulting in the conviction of her sister's husband. Susan talks about her work trying to raise awareness around domestic violence. To get ad-free listening for all of our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Frannie Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Kurloff. Production and fact-checking help by Sara Kadeer. Veronica Mzezeca is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jessie McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer, and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateland. All right.

Well, thanks, Celia. Happy New Year, everyone.

See you soon.