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Hi, everyone. It's Jenna Bushhager from Today with Hoda and Jenna, reminding you to check out my podcast, Open Book with Jenna. In this week's episode, I sit down with Emmy nominated actress and producer, Riley Keogh. She joins me to talk about how she helped her mother, Lisa Marie Presley, write her memoir before she passed and what she hopes readers take away from her mom's story. You can listen to the full conversation now by searching Open Book with Jenna wherever you get your podcasts.

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A true crime story never really ends. Even when a case is closed, the journey for those left behind is just beginning.

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Since our Dateline story aired, Tracy has harnessed her outrage into a mission.

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I had no other option. I had to do something.

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Catch up with families, friends, and investigators on our bonus series after the verdict. Ordinary people facing extraordinary circumstances with strength and courage.

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It does just change your life, but speaking up for these issues helps me keep going.

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Hey, everyone. It's Andrea Canning, and we are talking Dateline. Today is a special treat. I'm joined by Dateline producer, Lynn Keller, who worked with me on the episode we're going to be talking about. Hey, Lynn.

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Hey, Andrea. So this episode is called the man of many faces. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this 1 on your Dateline podcast feed. So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here. For this talking Dateline, we have an extra clip from an interview with a pub owner in Scotland who came face to face with the Man of Many Faces.

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But to recap, hoping to evade law enforcement and a slew of criminal charges against him, an American man, Nicholas Alaverdian, faked his own death and fled the country. Investigators and our Dateline team tracked down the elusive fugitive to Scotland before he was extradited back to the United States to face justice and to tell 1 more surprising story about who he really is. Okay. Let's talk Dateline. Lyn, a big question is and it because it's going back now, is how did we get you and I both just became very interested in this story together.

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I feel like you emailed me a a link to the story.

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Okay.

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And we were we just kept talking about how crazy it was. And then our affiliate in Rhode Island and Providence interviewed him. And we're like, oh, we wanna do that too. And so I reached out to that reporter. He gave us Nicholas's contact or Arthur's contact.

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Arthur. Yeah.

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And then, I set up a call for

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Mhmm. The 3

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of us. It was you, me, and Arthur. And then do you remember too? I remember we were on a story, a completely different story, and my phone rang, and it was him. And so we had we had him on speaker, and we just let him talk and

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talk. He does talk. He talks and talks and talks a lot. Yeah. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but he does talk a lot.

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This story the con man stories, you and I really enjoy doing them. Not to say, like, we feel, obviously, very bad for the victims of these stories, because it's awful what people are put through by con men. But at the same time, they are fascinating to look into them. We don't do them as much on Dateline. We we usually stick to traditional murder investigations.

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Well, I think what happened is we got, what we would consider a yellow light when we pitched the story.

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That's what you all said.

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They basically said, well, you know, just go see what more you can find. And so then once we booked the interview and you did that amazing

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Oh my gosh.

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Bizarre crazy interview, that got our bosses hooked on, like, let's see what else we can do. Yeah. And 1 of the things I wanted to say also about the victims is that it turns out usually that they wanna have a voice. They wanna have an opportunity to talk about it.

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I was gonna say the same thing. In this case, now Nicholas Rossi is behind bars. He's pleaded not guilty to all of the criminal charges he's facing, but, you know, there was a time where he wasn't behind bars. And and these women said, look. I'm we're speaking out because we wanna we wanna prevent this from happening to anybody else.

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The victims of Nicholas, alleged and some actual victims of, Nicholas, they have, a Facebook group where they communicate with each other, and they keep track of what you know, what's happening with him. Yeah. So they abandoned together.

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You know, this this interview came about I I mean, I honestly didn't think he didn't wouldn't show up. We disclosed in in our show that we did that interview remotely. I was in New York, and and Nicholas Arthur was in Scotland. We did that interview in my basement, and, you know, a lot of people said, like, how did you keep a straight face? And the reality is I didn't.

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Like, when he stands up and, you know, falls over in that kind of, dare I say, iconic moment, that triggered me, you know, to start laughing. It was it it's 1 of those moments where you know when you're in school and you're not, like, you're not allowed to laugh, and then you then you just you laugh more. It was kind of that, and so I lift up the my notes, and I and, Arthur, are you laughing at me? Are you laughing at me? And I put the notes in front of my face because I felt so bad.

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I even was like, no. And I'm trying to make up excuses, but there's no there's no excuses. Like, it's just it's happening.

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I mean, that was extremely unusual circumstance to have somebody who is obviously faking, you know, try to do this demonstration.

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Yeah. And he would say he wasn't faking, that he really has these issues from COVID. You know? And he really, truly was in the hospital, for COVID.

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Well, then we found out later that when he, goes back into the hospital, a female doctor and nurse told him that they were gonna release him, and he cops off the gurney and goes to attack them. So that whole thing of him trying to stand up, I mean, chances are it was it was completely an act. It was not real.

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Yeah. I mean, I think I think a lot of people would probably agree with that. So, yeah, we're we're trying to book another interview with him, and we've been going back and forth. And the the jail has said no, to allowing us physically inside the jail. So we were trying to do either a video interview over video conference or a phone interview, and, we've been just going back and forth, back and forth, and and did not get him to agree by the deadline of our updated story.

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Right. Because he did say that he's like, oh, I do wanna do an in person interview. That's what he told us. Yeah. But and and we gave him the deadline, and Yeah.

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He never got back to us in time. He didn't get back to us

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in time. I would love to do an interview with him again. I mean so I hope he accepts, you know, at some point to do another interview with us. What would you

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be what would be your first question? Like, what would be your most burning question to him?

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I don't I don't know. That's a good question. I mean, certainly, see you know, to see if he would reveal so when he was in court this year in Utah, what was his line about, you know, he he had to fake it because they were trying to kill him because of his work, with Department of Children and Youth Services in Rhode Island that, you know, they were after him, so he had to, like, essentially, what, go into hiding? And he made that comment about if you what was it? If you give a mouse a a piece of cheese or whatever?

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Break that down

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for us, Lynn.

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What did that mean?

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So the the the prosecutor asked him, so who are these people who wanna kill you? And he said, well, I don't wanna give a mouse cheese. And, basically, he was saying that by saying their names, he was elevating the whole issue. So they closed the court, and then I guess he revealed 2 names of people, that we don't know. I would be curious to know how much his wife, Miranda, knew, if he would tell us.

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Like, when did she find out about his Yeah. Faked death?

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I would love to talk to her again too, Miranda. I'd love to get her reaction to what is happening now, Because she said, remember if if anyone would know, I would. You know, if he was a bad person. I mean and we you and I were talking about this. Like, he's, on 1 hand, it's there's elements of this that are kind of humorous, you know, the falling and the the characters and all that.

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But there are real victims in this, some alleged, some victims. But, I mean, he is accused of rape, violent rape, and that is no laughing matter. And so it's a he's a kind of a weird dichotomy. It's 1 of those ones you're sort of confused to how you should react to this man, right, and how you should talk about him. It's very like, I've never really encountered someone like him.

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That, reporter in Scotland that you interviewed, she said, I've been a journalist for 30 years. I've never met anyone like him. Yeah. So it's across the board. We're all feeling the same.

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And and it goes to the title of the show, the man of of many faces. Right? So maybe there is 1 man that you laugh at, and then there's 1 man that you're scared of. And, you know, it's

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And 1 man you feel sorry for because he he had a terrible upbringing.

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He had

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a terrible childhood. You know?

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Absolutely. That's hard. When we get back, a bonus clip with a local pub owner who saw the con man from behind the bar.

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Hey, guys. Willie Geist here, reminding you to check out the Sunday sit down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with the 1 and only Billy Crystal to talk about a life in comedy and the acclaimed new series that shows he can play deadly serious too. You can get our conversation for free wherever you download your podcasts.

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They called it the happiest place on the high desert, home to a tight knit group of 30 somethings who like to party. It starts as a Playboy Channel fantasy, but this is real life. Where passion leads to murder, and a killer seeks God's help with the cover up. I'm Josh Mankiewicz, and this is Deadly Mirage, an all new podcast from Dateline. Listen for free each week,

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or unlock new episodes early and enjoy ad free listening by subscribing to Dateline dateline premium.com. Finding the perfect gift for a true crime podcast fan can be tricky. What do you get for someone who loves twisty mysteries, determined detectives, and secrets hiding secrets? All great stuff, but hard to wrap. So we put all that and more in a subscription to Dateline Premium.

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You'll actually be giving 3 gifts in 1, ad free listening to all Dateline podcasts, early access to all new episodes, and exclusive bonus content. You are so generous.

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Just go

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to datelinepremium.com and give the gift of Dateline. Available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and more.

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It's just what I wanted. How did you know? Datelinepremium.com. It fits perfectly, and I love the color. What do you think about his voice?

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Do you think the like, talking like that, do you think that that could be real, that that's a side effect of COVID, or do you think that that's a put on voice and that the moment the cameras go away, he talks to Miranda normally?

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Yeah. So when he did the interview with you and he was in Scotland, I believe that some of it was true and some of it was a little bit put on because he really did want to communicate his side to you. And sometimes you just couldn't understand him, and so you'd turn to Miranda and say, could you basically tell me what he just said?

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Mhmm.

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But that stuttering thing seemed that seemed to put on to me. Yeah. But even today, he has that his voice has definitely been affected, and maybe that's from having oxygen going constantly that that could also affect your vocal cords. I don't know.

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Yeah. It's you know, when we when we talk about this man of many faces and and, you know, he had to really keep up the accents and, like, you know, his profession and all like, different people that he spoke to. Maybe he was different things. We have a clip with a pub owner, we sat down with in Glasgow who shared an Arthur Knight story. Let's take a listen to what he had to say.

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So in the UK, we have a a dish called coronation chicken, right, which is a is a standard thing for buffets or weddings or bowling clubs and stuff like that. And, we were having coronation chicken for lunch 1 day and, I had some extra wraps and I asked him if he wanted a coronation chicken wrap. You know, we kinda like that and he was quite friendly, quite open. And, he didn't know what coronation chicken was.

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Now So that was odd for you?

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Well, not

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at the time. At the time I'm just thinking, oh, you know, old money guy. I don't know what they have at the boobies, you know? But, Coronation chicken is is is like sausage rolls or whatever at a buffet or sandwiches or whatever, you know? So, that with hindsight that that, that's strange that you wouldn't know what that was, you know?

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Most people from this area would know or King or

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Most people in the UK. Yeah. Most people in the UK would be aware of what coronation chicken is. Yeah. He wasn't.

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So, you know, with with hindsight that, you know, that was his his that was his mask slipping again. You know?

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So you had his name slipped, his American accent would occasionally slip, and he didn't know what coronation chicken was.

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Correct.

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And the case is cracked with the pub over here. Is cracked.

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I actually looked up what coronation chicken is, and it's spicy with dried apricots and curry, cumin, turmeric, ginger, and other spices.

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That sounds kinda good, actually. It does. And it and it it it was trivia here for all our listeners who saw the episode. Where was the other chicken mentioned? Quick.

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Think about it. Think about it. Champagne chicken. Champagne chicken.

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Miranda served it to, Jane McSorley, the reporter.

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The reporter. Yeah. The the champagne chicken. So there we there you go. 2 chicken references in 1 date line.

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Before we get to the social media, comments and questions, you know, I wanted to point out how just how strong Mary was, you know, for coming to to Utah from Ohio to she was planning to face him, and we were told he was going to be in court, and his name was even on the door in the, you know, the docket listing as in person, and then he he was, unfortunately, over video. But, you know, good for Mary for for coming to face him, and, unfortunately, Catherine Heckendorfren would have come as well, but she had just, given birth to a baby. So I, like, I know you were impressed, Lynn, by Mary and and her, you know, her talking approaching the prosecutor and saying, I'm here, if you need anything, if there's a sentencing phase, or anything like that.

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Yeah. When we were sitting in the courtroom, I saw who the prosecutor was, and they were talking to his attorney. And so I pointed him out to Mary. I said, you know, that's the prosecutor there. And within minutes, I see her get up, go over, and she introduced herself.

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And and the prosecutor took her information so that if there's a sentencing, she would have a chance to talk to the judge, which is amazing. And I also remember when she was doing the interview with you this time, she said, he messed with the wrong girl. And I thought, yes. He did.

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I love that.

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Many of the of his alleged victims, they were too afraid of him, and they didn't they didn't pursue it. But she was she was not backing down. Down.

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Well, she didn't back down, and then and then, of course, that's the whole reason that the this international manhunt was sparked because she because of what she did. He had to register as a sex offender. He had to give up his DNA. And then the prosecutor in Utah, David Levitt, testing the rape kits, there you go. He there's a hit.

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There's a hit in Ohio, and that is all because of Mary.

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Yeah. And it was, like, 9 or 10 years later that they that that it happened.

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Right. So kudos to Mary. Kudos to Catherine, who survived and is doing great. And also, David Levitt, the former prosecutor, for wanting to test those rape kits on, the the podcast I do, Dateline True Crime Weekly, the other podcast. We hear about all these untested rape kits all over the country, And it's sad because each 1 of those kits represents a woman who says that she was sexually assaulted, and why is it not having its its due?

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Why are why are we not bringing these attackers to justice? So, you know, it certainly sparked 1 of the most unusual stories we've ever done, but also, you know, just to just to talk about untested rape kits. It is such a big deal in this country, and so, hopefully, you know, that discussion will continue, and more, more departments around the country will, you know, pay more attention to that and take that seriously. If he did, in fact, commit these rape crimes in Utah, then, you know, sometimes, being convicted, you know, for another person's crime can speak for all. You know, if he is if he is sent sentenced to prison, you know, maybe it's it's not perfect justice, but we see these in datelines where the victim say, look.

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I just want him to be behind bars. I just want it so he can't hurt anyone else. And that's what I I hope, you know, if he is convicted of these crimes, that that's what will give her some peace. Alright. Up next, your questions from social media.

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We are back. And 1 of the biggest questions from social media was why didn't the Scottish courts test Nicholas's DNA to confirm his identity? We heard that over and over again.

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Yes. And in this sentencing, the judge in Scotland, he actually sort of reprimanded the prosecution saying, you know, why was this not why did they not test his DNA? It was, you know, it was a rhetorical thing, so the prosecutor didn't respond to, we don't know. We don't know what it is. I would imagine, based on your interview with with Arthur, is that he was making it so difficult, the whole DNA.

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And and so they figured, let's just go with fingerprints and the tattoos. Well but they weren't able to use those until he attacked the doctor Because that for that charge, they were able to take to take all that information, and then that's how they presented it to the court.

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Well, even when we were in Scotland, remember, we we went to the hearing, and and he was a no show because he was becoming increasingly difficult to get him out of the cell and, like, into the transport van or or whatever to get him to the courthouse. That became a

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real problem. In the US too. He's doing the same thing.

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And back to the DNA. So when when Nicholas got back to the US, the prosecutor was finally able to test the DNA, and it was, in fact, Nicholas. It was it was a match, they say.

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Well, they the investigator testified that they did test his DNA, and and it was in fact Nicholas Rossi, Alverdian.

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There were a lot of questions about the photo of Nicholas in the hospital while he's in a coma. Why was he wearing glasses if he was in a coma? Wow. Good I didn't even notice that, actually. I don't

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think he's in a coma at that moment.

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I think he's in

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he's in dire straits, but I think he's out of the coma at that point.

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Okay. Okay. Okay. Psyprofessor23 on Facebook said, wife Miranda obstructing justice and harboring a fugitive, to name a few. Those are okay.

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That's that's this user's allegation. She has not been convicted of a crime or charged with a crime. This user's husband said, she's Scotland's problem now. So the question is, will Miranda face any charges?

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I don't think so. I I mean, they would have to prove that she knew that he was a fugitive, which we don't know that she knows that.

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We yeah. So Until she says it. I mean Yeah.

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I think it would be very hard to prosecute her. Plus, Skylynn, I feel like it's just like Yeah. They're kinda done with your problem.

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They're kinda done with it. But it does actually open up that question of Miranda. You know, we talked about it earlier. Did Miranda what did she know, not know? As far as Nicholas's other identity, you know, that he's an American, you know, there's a good chance she probably did know if he was if he was doing this on purpose to save his life, as he says, that people were after him, he probably would tell his wife.

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Right?

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That Or maybe that's what he said. He said, I'm I'm pretending not that I'm a fugitive from justice, but I'm pretending to be somebody else because there are people who wanna kill me. So then she would she'd have no culpability there.

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Right. And, again, we don't we don't know this. We're speculating. We have absolutely no idea. This is just sort of based on covering the story for a long time together.

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Cynthia Perna Tulin on Facebook said about Nicholas should have used his smarts for good and not the evil he unleashed on everyone.

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Yeah. I've I've thought that many times because he there was a part of him that wanted to do that. You know, he really did wanna change the law because Yeah. When he was in the foster care system, he was in the system where they would put him in a different house every single night. Like, how is a child supposed to flourish in a situation like that?

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And that was 1 of the things he was trying to change. Yeah. It's a shame that he couldn't have taken all of his smarts and energy and just kept on that path. But

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Yeah. Absolutely.

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He was the victim of abuse himself. Mhmm. So it was a it it was a challenge. It is a challenge.

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So the prosecutor in Utah has offered him a plea deal. He's been given some time to think it over. If he decides to go to trial, there could be 2 trials. Lynn, do we know the maximum sentence he's facing?

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It's 5 to life. That's what

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it is. Okay.

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If you're convicted, it's 5 to life. So that every 5 years, you'd have a chance to get out, I guess.

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Okay. Okay. So this plea deal sounds like a no brainer unless he wants to roll the dice with a judge or a jury.

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Well, we know that he is a very, he has very strong conviction. So he'd have to admit that he raped these 2 women.

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Lynn, thank you, so much for this kind of special edition of Talking Dateline. Thank you for having me. Yeah. It was fun talking with you since we've been on this journey together, this bizarre journey. So, look forward to continuing to follow this story in 2025 as we see how it unfolds and, you know, what happens to Nicholas and getting another interview.

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Nicholas

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thinking the same thing.

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Another interview. Are you listening? Thank you. That's it for talking Dateline this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can reach us 247 on social media at Dateline NBC.

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And be sure to check out Josh's new original podcast, Deadly Mirage. Episodes 1 to 5 are out now, and the final episode will be released Thursday for those who have been waiting to binge the series. Dateline premium subscribers can listen to all 6 episodes now ad free. And of course, we'll see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC. Thanks for listening.