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Hi, everybody. I'm Josh Mankiewicz and we are talking Dateline today with Andrea. Hi, Andrea.

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Hi, Josh.

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This episode of yours is called The Room Downstairs. And if you in the audience have not listened to it, it's the episode right below this 1 on your Dateline podcast feed. So go there and listen. Now, for this Talking Dateline, Andrea has 2 extra interview clips that did not make it into the broadcast. So to recap, this was March 2011 in suburban New Jersey just across the George Washington Bridge from Manhattan in New York City.

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A house was engulfed in flames. Firefighters found a body in a basement bedroom, belonged to a 59 year old guy named Robert Cantor. And police did have a feeling that it was more than a standard house fire. Turned out they were right because he had been shot in the head and that the fire was a kind of a cover up. So this case sort of takes us to the oldest motive in the book which is jealousy, passion, revenge, and a love triangle, familiar shape to anybody who watches Dateline that went very very wrong.

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So let's talk Dateline. You know, everything about this from the beginning, from when you first, you know, the guy first sees the smoke coming from across the street, the guy who's fixing his tire, like you immediately think, yeah, there's gonna be more to it than just somebody dies in a fire. And I thought it was very interesting what the fire investigators said that when you see a healthy person, not somebody who's, you know, confined to their bed or something, the guy who's 59 years old, they don't stay in the bed. They're trying to get out. You find them near the door or they're clearly trying to get out of the place where the fire is happening and that that didn't happen in this case, and that was, in itself, suspicious.

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It sure didn't. And, of course, Rob had been shot. So, you know, once they got a closer look at the body, this was not a death by fire, not a death by burning or smoke inhalation or anything like that. It was cold blooded murder.

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This reminds me of, of Dawn Hackney, the woman who was killed in Bremerton, Washington in a podcast I did called mortal sin, in which it was thought that she died in a fire. It turned out that that her husband had strangled her before the the fire began. So, you know, there were 2 other kind of similar murders, arsons in that Teaneck, New Jersey area.

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I know. Strange, right?

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Around the time of Rob's death. And so, police clearly were at least wondering whether this had to do with, with 1 of those. It certainly does leap out at you from the beginning. What do you think? You think Tony Tong knew about those?

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Oh, that's a good question I never thought of. It's possible that he, you know, did it that way because he had researched crime in the area. I mean, oh, that's that's a good observation, Josh.

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I mean, they'd been in the paper. Like, you know, you could've Yeah. You could've seen it.

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And they were so eerily similar.

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Right.

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You know, I I I don't know.

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I have to believe that in this case, Tony Tong was the main suspect sort of from the get go. I mean, Rob had to tell people, you know, I'm having an affair with this woman, Sophie. And, by the way, her husband was not happy. Like, that's not the kind of thing you keep to yourself.

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Yeah. I mean, the the hardest part was proving it. You know, they suspected him very quickly, but they had all this circumstantial evidence, and they they had a hard time proving that he he went over to New Jersey Right. From Manhattan that night. That was that was the hard part.

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But, like, things like him wiping his hard drive, I mean, it looks really bad. You know? A little bit. But, like, where's the proof that he went over the bridge?

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This was in 2011. This was sort of when there were cameras in some places, but not every place. Like, sort of 1 1 imagines that if that murder were committed today, there would be video

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and there would be, there'd be

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a way to place Tony at the scene more accurately.

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New York City now has must have a camera multiple cameras, it seems, on every every corner. Like and and then that's not even including the business. I'm talking city cameras, and then there's the businesses. And then there's cars with cameras now. The license plate readers, you know, that they have now on taxicabs and, garbage trucks that are hired by insurance companies and law enforcement, and, I mean, there's so many ways to catch people now on camera doing something they shouldn't be doing or or at least providing a piece of the puzzle to a crime.

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The, the prosecutor was pretty clear with you, I thought, that he believed that somebody else had helped Tony Tung get from Manhattan to New Jersey to cover his tracks. That it wasn't just Yeah. You know, he took a cab, and the cab driver didn't realize, you know, who he was taking or why he was taking it and didn't remember it later. Like, he makes it sound like it's an actual coconspirator. And nobody ever got arrested for that.

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I mean, the feeling you get is that whoever that was, if that person does exist, they're getting away with it.

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Yeah. There was there was some talk of and this is all alleged that some people in Tony's world that he may have had some connections to a gang, some bad people. Tony Tongue has denied any allegations that he's somehow connected to gang violence, and has maintained his innocence throughout this. It just was very circumstantial, as I said. You know, there there was no smoking gun.

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There was no, like, we caught him buying the murder weapon that matched the bull like, nothing was concrete. But as we know, you don't need the smoking gun to put someone away from murder. It's all those little pieces that add up for a jury.

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You know, I mean, I've I've said this, in the past, but there's this sense that, you know, out there in the public that's as you know, that, like, like, circumstantial evidence sort of is lesser, that it doesn't count as much. I mean, here's the thing about circumstantial evidence. It doesn't lie. Like, he did erase his hard drive at that time that night.

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Mhmm.

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He, you know, circumstantial evidence can't be accused of forgetting to put on its eyeglasses. Circumstantial evidence can't be accused of being angry at the defendant and slanting its testimony for that reason. Circumstantial evidence is whatever it is, you know. You there's no other way to interpret that. So sometimes, circumstantial evidence is much better than than direct evidence.

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It is. And and, I mean, if all you had was the that he erased his hard drive, that's

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Correct.

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Okay. Well, that's not a great circumstantial case. But No. When you start adding up all the pieces of circumstantial evidence, it gets to the point where, okay, who else would it be?

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Well, you know, he his his he leaves the apartment, you know, at different times than he says. His timeline does not match up. Rob's wife who got some insurance money as a result of this, you know, she would be someone police would look at. She clearly was not involved. You know, those kind of things also sort of end up pointing law enforcement more and more and more toward Tony, who's a natural suspect.

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He's the husband whose wife is cheating on him with the person that was being killed. Yeah.

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He was angry. He didn't want his wife seeing this man, and he didn't want his daughters being around the man. And what was so interesting about Tony was he was portrayed as this, like, you know, the great dad who made the lunches and went to the school meetings and all that, but he had an evil streak in him.

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Okay. When we come back, Andrea has a behind the scenes story about her interview with Tony Tan. Let me ask you a couple of things about Tony Tung because when I see him in the interview and he's wearing that atrocious sweater, Right? Okay.

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I

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you know, which is clearly not prison wear. I think to myself, oh, okay. He's either not the guy or he was acquitted. Now for those of you who are listening who have not seen the episode, we have included a link to a photo from that interview in the episode description. Take a look.

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So It's it's that jail was, like, so hot in there. And it was actually the producer who brought that sweater to the jail. And then I got there, and the AP was there, Britney. And she had told the producer, I could run over to Macy's and grab, like, a polo shirt or something. He's like, no.

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No. This is good. This is good. And Tony Tongue is, like wanted to wear it. You know?

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That was his choice. And, actually, this producer, that was his own sweater.

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This was Tim Beaker.

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That. Well, I wasn't gonna name him, Josh. Oh, I know.

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I'm absolutely gonna name him.

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I didn't know if he'd really.

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Okay. It was

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his it was his sweater.

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That sweater is hideous.

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It was a Himalayan sweater, and it was scratchy. Right. Right. And Tony Tongue is, like, sweating, which, you know, when you're trying to defend yourself for murder, I guess you don't wanna look like you're sweating during the interview. I know this fact.

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And then I thought to myself was that this is so crazy, this sweater, that people are gonna think that he's not in jail, because who the heck would wear that sweater? I I'm surprised there's not a, like, a jail rule, no itchy green Himalayan sweaters.

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Well, I'm pretty sure there is now.

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Well, anyway, the the sweater has lived on, and the sweater almost is another character in the show.

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It is. And I totally bought it. I thought, well, either he beat the charges or he's not gonna get charged, and I'm wrong about him. So this case took a while. I mean, he was arrested, like, 14 months after the murder.

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Yeah. Because they didn't have you know, it was such a fact finding. Right? Gathering. And there's so many cases where it's not perfect, but it's kinda 1 of those now or never.

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Right?

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Right.

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Like, let's go for it. You know? And that's and, honestly, sometimes that all that's all it is, is we're not gonna get any better. We're not Right. We don't feel like we're gonna barring a witness coming forward or a confession, we're we're just not gonna find anything else at this point, so let's just do it.

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Clearly, some people were not expecting a guilty verdict because this was not some, like, overwhelming slam dunk case.

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And the jury was out for a while. Yeah. So they were clearly they were struggling to reach a verdict.

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3 days, which is a long time. Yeah. And then his conviction is overturned. You know, there's this belief that when that verdict is entered and the the jury comes back, like, well, that's it. You know?

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There's not gonna be any more here. And then turns out, a couple years later, you're back to square 1, essentially.

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Yeah. And but it didn't work for him. Guilty again.

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What do you think made the difference between the first trial and the second trial? Because the first trial, the the jury was out for a long time. I think sort of a lot of people expected a mistrial. The second 1, you know, it was the jury was only out for a couple hours.

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I mean I mean, who knows if it was the defense attorney or, you know, it's like with jurors. It's like a box of chocolates. Right? You never know what you're gonna get. I mean, it's all walks of life.

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It's like a game of roulette.

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After the break, Andrea is gonna share 2 podcast exclusive clips that did not make it into the broadcast. 1 was Rob's best friend and the other from Rob's killer. I'm guessing you guys tried very hard to get Sophie to talk, and she didn't want to. But you got Rob's sister, and she was great.

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She was fantastic. Yeah. We were so grateful that his sister spoke to us, and she was so lovely. And she spoke about this wonderful relationship that she had with her brother, and I was just happy, finally, somebody was talking about Rob. And yes, his friend spoke to us, who was wonderful, Mehrdad, But it was so wonderful to have a family member saying such nice things about Rob and, you know, really stand up for her brother and let us know what he was all about.

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Yep. I thought your interview with Mehrdad was just so adorable. I mean, he seems like a great guy, and the the closeness that he felt with Rob and clearly still feels all these years later is is very obvious. I mean, that's a he really loved his friend. Like, and they loved each other.

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They had these silly nicknames for each other.

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They were funny together. Yeah. Yeah.

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You know?

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And and and Mehrdad was the perfect person to talk about Rob and to bring Rob to life for us.

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So, here's a clip, that did not make the broadcast from your interview with Mehrdad.

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And I truly believe if, he were alive today and this heinous man was in prison, he said, Murdoch, maybe we should buy some cookies and go see him. When the first time this whole thing happened, he went to his house and, he called me. They said, Murdoch, I'm running late. He came to see me. I said, who's he?

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He kept saying here. I said, who? He said, Tony. I couldn't connect the dots. Then I realized, he said, I'll see you in a few minutes.

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So he showed up at work. He looked disheveled. I made the coffee. We sat down. He explained to me.

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I told him, how did you let him in? He said bizarre behavior.

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You mean just showing up like that? You thought that was

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I bizarre. As to knock at somebody's door, how did he find the house? Right? I mean, it's not that Roberto was a famous person. He's right.

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He was a celebrity or

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And Tony came back more times.

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A second time. He let him in again. I said, oh, I feel sorry for him.

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I mean, if I'm in that situation, I'm not letting that guy in my house. I know why he's there. I know he's he's he's tick ticked off at me. I'm gonna be like, hey. Look.

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You should probably talk to your wife about this. Like, this is not this is between the 2 of you. This is not about you and me. You know? But I would not be like, hey.

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Come on in. Let's have coffee. Let's be buds.

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You know? That's a really good point that yeah. Yeah. It was Rob. Right?

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That he he wanted to diffuse things. He He wanted to, you know, give this man what he needed, you know, as far as, like, understanding what was happening in the relationship. And I mean, that was very nice of him, to to say, you know what? Let's talk it out. And you know everyone you have friends that you're so frustrated because you can see from the outside, don't do that.

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Don't let them in. Or if someone's dating someone that you don't think is the right person or that's not a good person, and that person can't see that Or if or if somebody's

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wearing an incredibly garish sweater.

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That's sweaters.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Now we have a a different piece of sound about the same thing. This is Tony Tongue telling you about those visits to Rob. Let's listen to that.

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You decide to go pay this Rob Cantor a visit. Yes. That's a bold move. Take us to to what happened.

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I

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introduced myself. Like, I said, you know, my name is Tony. I'm Sophie's husband. Can I come in and talk to you? He was like, okay.

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Yeah. Sure. So I walked in.

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He just invited you in?

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He has to stay a little bit, but, you know, did he invite me in?

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Are you there to tell him to stop seeing Sophie?

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That's the end. I like to find out what's going on first.

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What did you gain from this visit?

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No. I was I was what I gained from the visit, I gained the knowledge of who this person is and, or how this person's gonna behave way around. He's not a bad guy.

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Did you tell Sophie that you had gone to see him?

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No. He did.

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And how did she react to that?

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Of course, she yelled. And I I tell her, you know, how I tell her the same thing I'm telling you right now.

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I I don't know how you cannot see this love triangle, you know, from Sophie's point of view, for example, or Rob's, and not think to yourself, this is gonna head in a direction I don't want it to head in. Like, they they did not seem to see that. Rob seemed to think, no, no, I'll win this guy over the way I win everybody over. And Sophie did not seem to perceive the danger.

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Yeah.

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That, I mean, your husband has found out about the affair. He's been cyber stalking you. He read all your emails. He's he's learned everything about this affair. And now he's going to confront the guy you're having the affair with.

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That's when, like, alarm bells should be going off. Like, this is the time to start taking this extremely seriously.

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Right.

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You know, 1 of the things that, 1 of the things Meredith said is, Rob died so Sophie could be free.

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That was so wow. Well, it's sad. I mean

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Those 2 loved each other. I think that's true.

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I know. Sophie had finally found her true love, you know, in Rob. And and, yeah, I mean, she it was like Tony had the shackles on her. Right? Like, he wouldn't let go, and he was so angry.

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And then, she finds sweet, calm, patient Rob, who's, you know, appears to be her soul mate, but she can't shed Tony. And then and then Tony ends up killing them her 1 true love. It's heartbreaking.

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And and in the process, ruining everybody's life.

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Yes. Right? His, Rob,

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Sophie's, and probably the kids.

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It's awful.

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It's the worst. It's the worst. And I wish we never see it, but we see it all the time. That's it for this episode of Talking Dateline. Thank you, Andrea.

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Before we go, we wanted to tell you about something that we're trying now. You can now send us audio of your questions and so your voice might be featured on an upcoming episode. Make a recording of your message on your phone and send it to us as a direct message on Facebook, Instagram or X formerly Twitter. And it doesn't have to be about the episode itself and no topic is off limits, although some language is not gonna get you on talking Dateline. But you can also still reach us the old fashioned way.

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Now this is the old fashioned way, the OG way, on social at at dateline NBC. Also, don't forget to listen to my all new podcast, which is called Deadly Mirage. The first 2 episodes are now available wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad free listening and for early access to episodes. Okay.

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That's talking Dateline. Thank you. See you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.