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[00:00:00]

So better the problem at stake here is not our secular society, the security forces, the French version of secular society. It's about being able to practice one's religion freely. Insofar as public order is maintained. It is in the little.

[00:00:23]

France is at a cultural crossroads for more than a century. The country's social and political life has been built around one particular idea, the secularism and universalism that places citizenship above all individual traits and identities.

[00:00:38]

The French call this place de la la la la la la la la la la la is so difficult to do that, he said. But a rising generation of thinkers and activists, many of them French people of color, are challenging the notion that ignoring race, religion and colonial history can actually produce equality for all. Now, a wave of terrorist attacks is pushing these issues into the public square and fueling a fierce culture war. This is deconstructed. And I'm Vanessa Abbey, filling in for Ryan Grim this week.

[00:01:21]

On February 16th, Pederick Vidal, the French minister of Advanced Education and Research, announced a nationwide investigation into the country's public university system.

[00:01:32]

Her goal to root out what she called Islamic leftism consists of the fringes in the group in polemical to the Islamic Gucci's. Let me tell you, most people you don't see Lessler more Gucci's and putting your political expression Islamic Gucci's public comments.

[00:01:49]

The minister claimed that universities are harbouring minorities who used their titles in Aura's to advance to radical and militant ideas, ideas that she described as a gangrene on French society, which distinguishes society from any other city.

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She singled out research on post colonialism as an example opposed to colonialism memorial services.

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The announcement was met with immediate outrage from some 600 French academics signing an open letter calling for the resignation of the junior Minister for Higher Education.

[00:02:30]

The renowned economics professor, Thomas Piketty said that the minister had displayed a deep ignorance of research in the social sciences and that she had acted irresponsibly given the far right growing power around the country. Indeed, the term Islamofascism leftism is a favorite in the French conservative arsenal, although the government spokesperson is eager to move on from the controversy. Vidal has since doubled down on her investigation plans. Truth is, the minister is not waging this battle alone. Her supporters include high profile colleagues like the Minister of National Education, Jean-Michel Blunkett, who himself blamed academic Islama leftism back in October for a gruesome terrorist attack that claimed the life of a middle school teacher.

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Bloche went as far as suggesting that certain academics were intellectual accomplices to the killer. You may be wondering what is Islama leftism? The answer is a bit ambiguous, but the outlet centre recently published an etymology of the term that I found pretty helpful.

[00:03:34]

Combining the left with a scary reference to religion. To spook people out is an old linguistic trick. In the 1930s, for example, the Nazi party in both Germany and the United States frequently used the term Jagdeo Bolshevism to spread the false idea that Jewish people plotted the Russian Revolution in an effort to demonize both a religious minority and the political left.

[00:03:59]

Ironically, the term Islamic leftism appears to have been first coined by the philosopher Pierre-Andre together in a 2002 text titled The New Junio Phobia. In this essay, TIGI have described a political faction that tolerates Jewish people and the condition that they, quote, display an unconditional Palestinian filia and fanatic anti Zionism, unquote. In his view, this faction, however caricatured, comprises the Islamic left. In other words, the left's solidarity with a religious minority is what makes it the boogeyman.

[00:04:35]

Here in the French language, the former refers to religious fanaticism, whereas the latter encompasses the religion more broadly. But there's an argument here that Islam is a root for both words and thereby becomes a pejorative for all Muslim people who in France comprise 10 percent of the population, regardless of how the minister of education intended to use the term. The reality is that Islamic leftism has been appropriated and is overwhelmingly used by the French right to attack progressives who argue that France does discriminate against Muslims, that France cannot seem to treat black and Arab people as equals, and that France does see race, that it wields it against people, even as it has made it a taboo in the law and in public discourse.

[00:05:22]

In the last eight years, France has been hit by terrorist attacks carried out by Islamic extremists that have killed around 250 people. The most recent one happened on October 16th, 20 20. A public middle school teacher named Cemil Petit during a class on the subject of free speech, had some caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad to his students. The caricatures had been taken from an old issue of Charlie Hebdo magazine, which was itself the subject of a horrific terrorist attack back in January 2015, actually the first of two mass shootings that year and 18 year old religious extremists named Abdullah Anzar.

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I've heard about what Samael, but he had done, tracked down the middle school teacher and beheaded him in retaliation. The attacks sparked thousands strong marches and warnings from French politicians about radicalized Muslims, which the interior minister called the enemy within.

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This was Paris on Sunday when thousands of people joined a rally in the memory of Samuel Party.

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And there were rallies in other cities to the newest slogan on posters, Here I am Samuel or simply I am a teacher, an echo of the rallying cry sparked by the attacks on Charlie Hebdo five years ago.

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The October attack struck a chord not only because of the sheer number of recent occurrences in France, but also because of where it took place. As I alluded in the beginning of this episode, secularism and universalism are a fundamental part of France's identity, and public school is an important site of indoctrination. It's where children are taught the concept of lated from an early age. France dislikes talking about race so much that in 2013, then President Francois Hollande declared, quote, There is no place in the republic for race.

[00:07:17]

He then went on to promise to remove the word from the French constitution altogether. The measure did not pass the Senate. It's also illegal in France to use government funds to collect information about race. The roots of this commitment to colorblindness, at least rhetorically, go back to the Enlightenment. But it was influenced as well by the country's participation in the Holocaust. France collected information on Jewish people and expelled around seventy five thousand from the country, sending them to their deaths.

[00:07:47]

And so assimilation is spread in the classroom and insisted upon for all newcomers. But many say that this color blind religion blind system isn't working and that it's breeding racism on a systemic level. The French establishment's response has been hostile and dismissive.

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They decry the imposition of American thought, which they say is ill suited to the fabric of French life. They accuse outspoken critics like my guest today of seeing race and racism everywhere, of being identity Aryans, in other words, of being racists, for pointing out the racism. They clutch their pearls at objections to the way they speak about people of color claiming threats to their freedom of speech. If it seems strange to hear me discuss killings and attacks by religious extremists in the same breath, ask questions of systemic discrimination, it's because of this.

[00:08:37]

In principle, these are two different subjects. Failures to protect religious and ethnic minorities do not excuse violence. Nor does sharing a religion or country of origin with the killers make another group responsible for these actions. But in France, these concepts are interconnected and difficult to disentangle. I think the government's response to the middle school teachers murder illustrates why consider this the week after the killing, the interior minister announced dozens of raids and actions against more than 51 Muslim organizations and announced the mass expulsion from the country of more than 200 foreign citizens deemed radical, most of which were already behind bars.

[00:09:23]

The same minister also decried the CCF, the collective against Islamophobia. This is a French nonprofit that maintains a register of anti-Muslim acts. The interior minister called the CCF an enemy of the republic, and that's not even the most bewildering part. After signing his death, the Minister of Education required all schools to observe a minute of silence on November 2nd. He also ordered teachers to report any and all inappropriate comments, however minor, close to 400 reports came in.

[00:10:00]

Astonishingly, at least 14 minors were taken into police custody and held for questioning because of comments they had made at school relating to the killing. The New York Times reported that one student was strip searched and held for eight hours for questioning the commemoration of the teacher's death and for having sat in class during a debate that Patty had asked for it. For 10 year olds of Algerian and Turkish origin were also questioned by the police for giving the wrong answer when their teacher asked if he risked decapitation by showing them caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad when the American administration's response to the October attack sparked criticism in the global media.

[00:10:46]

Michael actually picked up the phone and called it The New York Times to accuse the so-called Anglo American press of blaming the victim of legitimizing the violence and failing to understand that our model is universalised, not multiculturalist, Machen said, adding, In our society, I don't care whether someone is black, yellow or white, whether they are Catholic or Muslim. A person is first and foremost a citizen. But, Mr President, what if that is the problem?

[00:11:24]

Today's guest is Rukiya Diallo is a French journalist, writer and filmmaker. She has directed several documentaries, including Acting While Black Blackness on French Screens, which came out in twenty twenty. She's also the author of several books and a co-host of the biweekly podcast Keep the Hust, which explores questions of race in French. Thank you for joining us today. It's such a pleasure to have you on Deconstructed.

[00:11:50]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really glad and honored. So before we begin, I want to ask you a question that you often ask your guests on your own podcast. How do you identify?

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I grew up in and was born and raised in Paris where I live. And it took me some time to understand that I was a black woman. So I identify today as a black Muslim woman, I, I will do the same.

[00:12:16]

I, I'm not Muslim, but I am black. Born in Cameroon, but grew up in France since I was a baby. And so I'm French and American with some British influences, which is to say I feel very European, very American and pretty African. And I'm very interested for these reasons in the subject that we're going to talk about today. So as I was preparing, I realized that the discourse around race in France is so complex and so far reaching that it's hard to figure out where to start to give American listeners a basic sense of the culture wars shaping up in France.

[00:12:52]

But a good place to start may be with Lacierda, which is which claims to see no color, no creed, no origin, just citizenship. But now an increasing number of critics, including yourself, are challenging assumptions around what that means and what its effects have been on various populations around the country. So with the understanding that critics are not a monolith or a single voice, I'd love to hear what you see at the heart of this cultural debate and what reforms critics are asking for when they bring up these issues around race.

[00:13:29]

Thank you for a great question. As you said, there are many assumptions around Lycett. So it's a concept that was introduced into law in nineteen oh five in France. And the purpose of the law was two things. The first one was to separate the state from the religion and the the the majority religion at that time was the Catholicism. And it was a way to protect the state over the influence of the church. And the other point of it is that the state doesn't recognize any religion.

[00:14:00]

And I think that there have been a discursive way of interpreting laïcité so that some people today think that laïcité means that you have to hide your religion if you have one, in order to blend into what is supposed to be the French identity but is not the case officially. If you look at the text laïcité only make sure that there is no inequality between people, whether they are believers or not. And, you know, whatever their religion is.

[00:14:31]

I mean, in bringing up these issues around race, what are academics and outspoken activists asking for? What is the end goal?

[00:14:41]

The thing is that more and more Lycett is claimed by people who frame it into something that is supposed to erase everything that is religious to weaponize it against Muslims. Well, I see they haven't been that much debated after nine, you know, after the beginning of the 20th century. And it was suddenly part of the public debate in the end of the 80s because there were two schoolgirls who wanted to go to their middle schools with their headscarves. There were the Muslims.

[00:15:12]

And from that point, every time I see there was invoked, it was to make it face Muslims and Islam and to make Muslims understand that the way that they could display their beliefs didn't really fit to France. And according to me, it's not the purpose of the city initially, but it's weaponized in the public debate, as, according to me, a tool of Islamophobia. And it's pushed more and more to make sure that Muslims don't have the space to express themselves as being visibly Muslims.

[00:15:50]

Right.

[00:15:50]

The French establishment and by this I mean prominent media figures and politician, often pynt universalism and multiculturalism, declaim these things are in conflict and that there can't be a secular society where French citizenship comes first if identity, including religion, is permitted to enter the discourse. Do you see a tension between universalism and multiculturalism must take? One or the other, I think it's not one or the other. First of all, I think that universalism here in France is a myth.

[00:16:29]

It's something that is shaped around the idea that the white and Christian identity is neutral and everything that doesn't fit to fit the definition is seen as being non universal. And I think that, you know, people don't know that France did have some departments who used to be colonies. It means that France is present on the European side. But not only it's also on three other continents with some departments that are in the Caribbean like like Martinique and Guadalupe or some other close to Africa, like the Reunion Island, Omayyad and other places in the Pacific Ocean, whether it's the French Polynesia or the New Caledonia.

[00:17:11]

So it means that we in France are all over four continents and having citizens who are dispatched around the world means that it's not possible to have one single culture and one single language. So even if French is officially the language of the French people, there are several different cultures in France and it's not possible to say that France is one culture country as long as it does have citizens who are, you know, from Native American people descent. For example, for those who are in the French Guiana, you have people who are from enslaved people, descent in the Caribbean, in the Indian Ocean.

[00:17:51]

You have so many different people in the country. And even in the French mainland, you have people whose ancestors have came from many different places. So I think that we are telling ourselves a myth that is nowhere close to the truth. The French establishment, I think, including on the center and on the left, has or some parts of the left has not received this reminder about its own geography in a way and its own history very positively. I want to give listeners a sense of the hostility there by reading a passage from a speech that President Emmanuel Malcolm gave in October.

[00:18:28]

Twenty twenty. It's a little bit long, but I'll read it out and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. So here's my column. He says, We're a country with a colonial past and trauma's it still hasn't resolved with facts that underpin our collective psyche, our project, the way we see ourselves. The Algerian war is a part of this. And basically this whole period of our history is being replayed, as it were, because we've never unpacked things ourselves.

[00:18:54]

And so we see children of the republic, sometimes from elsewhere, grandchildren of today's citizens of immigrant origin, from the Maghreb and sub-Saharan Africa, revisiting their identity through a post-colonial and anticolonial discourse. We see children in the republic who have never experienced colonization, whose parents are on our soil and whose grandparents have been for a long time, but who fall into the again, deliberate trap of some others who use this discourse, this form of self-hatred that they say the republic should nurture against itself, but also taboos we ourselves have maintained and that make their origins mirror our history and also fuel this separatism.

[00:19:36]

So long passage here and there's a lot to unpack in this passage. Rokaya, but I was particularly struck by the suggestion that asking France to do some introspection, to acknowledge the sort of internal diversity in these internal conflicts amounts to self-hatred. And this idea that criticism based on post-colonial or anticolonial analysis equals separatism. Those are strong accusations. What do you make of that? Framing is my core misunderstanding, the criticism at issue here. I think it was a great mistake to say that because there is also that suspicion around people who are the children, are the grandchildren of the people who were colonized, that they are not really loyal to the republic and saying that there is a link, a connection, the continuum between the colonial times and today.

[00:20:34]

And I would say racism is just something that is very logical. You don't have to to study that much to see that obviously today, if you go to friends, there are some ghettos where people who are from colonial descent live more and that face racism, they face discrimination. It has been documented a lot. And I was telling you about those French Brockman's who used to be the place where enslaved Africans were working for free for for the sake of friends.

[00:21:01]

There are still now departments in which the majority are people of color and they are structurally discriminated against. So saying that is not being self hateful is just pointing out the fact that the French republic is not perfect. And I would say that if you don't care about France, you don't say anything. I think that people who care about France that try their best to remind the country of its own principles. And I think that if you criticize your country, it doesn't mean that you hate it, just mean that you believe in it.

[00:21:34]

And that should be demanded to fit to its principles and values then makes a lot of sense. You've mentioned in that answer ghettos around the country. That's something that my client recently acknowledged, the ghettoization of Muslims in the BUNU, which I think has always been rather obvious, and yet him even sort of speaking. That was a sort of radical move. It seems like a step in the positive direction. But the admission that there are ghettos that sort of segregate people by color and religion in France also contradicts the official line that the French republic is a colorblind society.

[00:22:14]

I'm wondering if it goes further than that. I mean, do you think the French government has any responsibility for the ghettoization and segregation of people of color in housing and jobs in other sectors of the economy in other ways? Is the government to blame for racialization? A little bit.

[00:22:37]

I think it's we cannot put it only on the shoulders of the current government. I think that the responsibility should be shared by several different governments. And it's not up to my country to just solve the problem just magically. And I think it's a good thing that you acknowledge the fact that there were there were obviously mistreatments that were that some people in the country were facing. And I think it has much to do with the fact that it's very difficult in France to speak about race openly.

[00:23:08]

We don't have that many opportunities to speak about race. And if you don't really have a public discourse on something that is so obvious, it's very difficult to create the policies in order to try to dismantle that system. And I think that that's what is lacking today, the fact that we don't have many grounds to try to tackle racism because you don't have public policies that really explicitly address race now that there is a somewhat public discourse around race going on.

[00:23:40]

One complaint I've seen from the French establishment is that there is a problematic Americanization of the debate on race and that academics and activists are importing things like critical race theory from the United States through social media and other means, and that they're forcing it onto French issues, which, in their view, doesn't match up cleanly onto France's unique history and unique values. Is there any truth in that? Is is there an American influence of thought? And and if so, do you think it has its limits?

[00:24:16]

So France and the US have been influencing each other for a very long time. French were supporting the American Revolution in the 18th century. So it's like it's not something that is new to country, has been influencing each other for a very long time, but saying that the issues of race that are debated today in France by scholars, by activists are embodied by the US is a way to deny the fact that there is a very local specific reason to debate on race in France.

[00:24:47]

And it's not something that just suddenly appeared today. France has also passed with the slave trade. It has a past with the colonies. It was the second largest colonial empire after the British Empire in the 20th century. So what we are dealing with today has much to do with that history. And I think that we tend to erase the heroes of the resistance. Against slavery, against colonization that stood against France from history books. That's the reason why we have so many monuments or public facilities that are named after Martin Luther King, after Rosa Parks, after Nelson Mandela, who were great figures, but who are not French.

[00:25:34]

So it's like there is there is that kind of collective denial of the fact that something happened here in France. And whoever tries to address that is sent back to the U.S. But the U.S. was also founded by Europeans. So it's very also also important to remind the fact that the country was, of course, founded on the genocide and then on the horrendous slave trade. But it was founded by Europeans who crossed the Atlantic with European ideologies. And I think that we missed the point if we think that racism was only a construction of the US.

[00:26:08]

And also, I would like to remind I already said that, but the fact that France is in the Americas, it's like there are territories, French territories that are in America. So it means that we don't need to import anything from the American continent since we already as a French country on American soil.

[00:26:30]

And it's something that people tend to forget, even if we were to take at face value this argument that there is an Americanization of the debate. I think the argument around that around importation ignores the fact that the people bringing the criticisms, often people of color, often people born in France, raised in French school since they were little, are products of the French system. And, you know, even if they are seeing and importing these American arguments, it means that they are seeing relevance in them and that they are adapting them to analyze French issues still, which I think I totally agree.

[00:27:12]

Sorry, sorry. But I would like to jump in that because I of course.

[00:27:16]

Of course. I think it's a very patronizing way of just looking at them, like because even if you use some of the theories that were created in the US, you're still French. And it's like saying that those people would be unable to analyze their own country, like because they would be manipulated by some people who have never left to food in France. So it's very, very patronizing.

[00:27:44]

Yeah, it's there's so much of a double standard going on here where French nationality is sometimes all encompassing when we're all watching the World Cup together, everybody is French and then it becomes conditional when convenient. It kind of reminds me actually of when the socialist president, François Hollande, responded to the Paris terror attacks by proposing a not, if you recall that. I'm sure you do, but proposing that terrorists with dual citizenships be stripped of their French citizenship. But of course, if white French person with only one nationality committed the same horrible crime, their citizenship would never be in question.

[00:28:27]

And like the bill didn't pass. But the fact that the president from the left would propose it, I thought was very telling. And you have these moments of crisis around the country of intense pressure where I think France reveals its true face and the weakness in its own narrative around lazy D secularism and universalism.

[00:28:51]

It is it was it was shocking. And, you know, the information on that is that people who attack France have ties to other countries that are truly French and they should be sent back to the country that they do that they belong, really belong to. And it's something very disgraceful because if you attack your country, there is a set of laws that are meant to punish you. So you don't mean to add something very specific to the people who are supposedly not that French.

[00:29:21]

Right.

[00:29:23]

We talked a little bit about denial and denial of France's own problems. I want to go back to that. The summer of twenty twenty and the church Floyd protests that spread after the Minneapolis police killed George Floyd. Those protests spread around the world, including to France. And that summer, the movement seeking justice for victims of police violence in France, including four young black Frenchmen who died in police custody in 2016. That movement gained a lot of traction and there were thousands in the street asking France, I think, to kind of provide answers and to reckon with its own police problem.

[00:30:05]

Last summer's protests weren't the country's first against police brutality and racism, right? Yes, of course.

[00:30:12]

There have been protests in France for a very long time. There was, for example, in the 80s in nineteen eighty three, a march that was named the March for Equality and Against Racism. That was started by a young woman whose name is Toomy Jaja, because he was it was the victim of police brutality. He was from Algerian descent and he decided to start a march which ended up being the first national march against racism. There have been uprisings in 2005 after the death of two young teenagers who were chased by the police for another reason.

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They ended up being electrocuted in a power station and not being rescued by the police. So two of them died and they were 15 and 17. And it was the beginning of a very an incredible wave of uprisings, first of all, in the suburbs of Paris. But then on all the French soil, the French territory and early on in the 1990s, there were also civil uprisings following police brutality. So it's something that has been happening a lot.

[00:31:16]

And actually, the family of ADMET that you mentioned, who died in twenty sixteen, started to protest the very day of his death. So they have been organizing, organizing marches like every year on the place where he lost his life since twenty, twenty, sixteen, just Floyds tragic death just gave to activists around the world an opportunity, even if it's in very sad circumstances. It gave them an opportunity just to push the local media and the local police station to pay attention to what was going on in the country, instead of only mentioning only covering the US racist crimes.

[00:31:59]

I want to talk a little bit about coverage. So President Macron caught a lot of bad press after the killing of Samuel Petit, the middle school teacher, for ordering dozens of raids on Arab homes and Muslim organization. My client hit back what he calls the Anglo American press by accusing them of being incapable of understanding French conditions and values. You are a French journalist, but you also write for the op ed section of The Washington Post where you bring a unique or perspective on French questions.

[00:32:35]

So having a foot on both the French and Anglo sides of the media ecosystem, do you agree with Meccan? Any level here, is there value or do you see value in outsider commentary on the hexagon? There is this idea that there is in France what we call exceptional control, so the cultural exception and that that that implies the fact that our culture is so refined, so, so specific that it would be so difficult for people who are not French to understand us.

[00:33:09]

And I don't think it's the case. And the thing is that, yes, I do write for The Washington Post from my French perspective, and what I write in The Washington Post is the exact same thing that I would say in French. And I think that what the international and especially the American and some British press have been able to echo is the voices of people who are unheard in France and who are not that much interviewed in the French newspapers.

[00:33:41]

And I think that some voices, especially minority voice, women's voices, were not freely acknowledged in their local context and the fact that some foreign press would take them into account and value their voices, of course, from a very different image of friends that the one that is usually exported. But to me, it's a good thing. And I'm sure that some people, including women, are very surprised to see that those minority voices have so much space out of the country because they're not really valued here.

[00:34:18]

But it's, to me, a good way to change the narrative about France. And for example, The New York Times has a book here in Paris. And in that group, there are French journalists who know their country as much as my cousin does. So there is no reason to start a controversy on that because those people know that they work and they speak about France in a way that is very accurate.

[00:34:43]

Just ties in to another facet of this debate, which is the question of free speech. A common complaint from the French establishment is that mentioning how people of color aren't talked about in France and, for instance, denouncing the pejorative words that are used to describe them to describe us. The caricatures made of some of their religious beliefs threatens their own freedom of speech. Yet my comment was clearly upset that the foreign press would use their free speech to paint his actions in a harsh light.

[00:35:17]

I think that's policing free speech when a few days ago, the government, and particularly the minister of Advanced Education, Frederick Vidal, announced an investigation into university departments that are doing post-colonial research that was also clearly policing free speech, which is to say that I'm not convinced that France is actually the sort of beacon of enlightenment and free speech that it claims it is. What do you make of that? And more broadly, you know, you're in the public light a lot talking about these issues, forcing them into the discourse.

[00:35:54]

Have you found that the public and the French establishment have been open to directly engaging on these complex issues around race and civil rights?

[00:36:06]

Thank you for that great question. I think it's the other way around like there. It's very difficult in France to be a public figure and to try to speak about race or about gender. You know, if you just just watched the French TV, listen to the French radio or read the French newspaper, that there are many voices like mine and I have faced much backlash for saying what I say. I can name some artists who tried to address patriarchy, racism and how much I've been in trouble for that, because they were certainly not the beautiful women who are smiling at the camera.

[00:36:44]

But, you know, some artists who are Deep Throat on know current issues and who were determined to speak the truth to power. So I think that if there is a threat regarding freedom of speech, a threat that would come from an institution, it's on the free speech of minorities. I face being expected to take part to a public debate and having the debate canceled by a mayor, by a public institution, because I was the woman who was claiming that there was a state sponsored racism in France.

[00:37:19]

And I've faced so many consequences for saying that. So and, you know, I'm an individual. I don't belong to any organization. So and what I experience is being shut down by an institution, by someone who represents the republic. I've even been sued for saying something by a mayor. So she used public money to sue me. I was released at the end of the day, but it costs the public money to sue me for saying what I was saying as a French journalist by a mayor.

[00:37:48]

And I never hear anyone saying, you know, anything about that because I'm not the only one. So I think it's still difficult to navigate into the public space if you are a minority and try to address racism.

[00:38:04]

Well, Rick, I'm certainly very grateful that we were able to get your perspective on this complex subject here on Deconstructed. Where can listeners find your latest work?

[00:38:17]

You can follow me on Twitter and read my pieces, which are in English on The Washington Post. You have a page with all my pieces I read that I published about social issues and issues of human rights and also just follow me on Twitter and it's been on my profile.

[00:38:35]

Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. It was a great pleasure. Thank you for listening to me.

[00:38:44]

That was recorded Yellow, a French journalist, writer, filmmaker and co-host of the podcast Keep to US. While there are no easy answers to the challenges facing France. I hope that today's episode helped shed some light on the so-called Islamic leftism controversy and the state of race in France.

[00:39:09]

Deconstructed is a production of First Look Media and The Intercept, our producer, Zach Young, our supervising producer is Lara Flynn. The show is next by Brian Pugh. Our theme music was composed by Bart Warshel. Betsy Reed is The Intercept editor in chief. And No Nasab. You can follow me on Twitter. Venessa underscore Abie if you haven't already, please subscribe to the show so you can hear it every week. Go to The Intercept, Come Forward Slash Deconstructed to subscribe from your podcast Platform of Choice, iPhone, Android, whatever.

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If you're subscribed already, please do leave us a rating or review. It helps people find the show. And if you want to give us feedback, email us that podcast at The Intercept Dotcom. Thanks so much. Akehurst powers some of the world's best podcasts. Here's a show we recommend. Hi, this is Ross Golan, the host of the podcast, and the writer is I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life in the industry, politics, composition, whatever.

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So our podcast is a journey of learning, why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. Guess this season include Gwen Stefani, Luke Combs, Victoria Monet and Clemans. Love J.Y. did it in many more. Listen to our show and the writer is every Monday on a cast or wherever you get your podcast, visit our website at West Dot and the writer is Dotcom.

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