Lower level and here we're taking our usual summer break, so until we're back on air, we're showcasing a few programs from our back catalogue. As usual, the music's been shortened for right reasons. This week's guest is the former footballer, Jackie Chan. He was castaway twice, first in 1972 and then in 1996 by zulily.

BBC Sound, Music, radio, podcasts. My castaway this week is a footballer, even if you don't know much about football, you'll know about him. He's one of its great names, the lad from the poor Northeast mining village who followed his grandfather, uncles and brother into the game and became one of the team that won England the World Cup in 1966. For 21 years, he played for Leeds United, appearing for the more than 600 times and winning 35 England caps.

When he stopped playing, he took up managing and for practically ten years looked after the Republic of Ireland, leading them into the World Cup twice. And so becoming an Irish hero, a tough, blunt Geordie, he says of himself as a footballer, the one thing I couldn't do was play, but I was very good at stopping other people playing. Here's Jack Charlton. So your skill was not so much as a dynamic force then, Jack, as a man who got in everybody else's way?

Well, that's the way defenders are. I mean, I was, as a young boy, never considered to be a player at all. I just was big and I could kick the ball and I could play among the kids in the park. And you were a tough tackle. I was tough. And, you know, I like to fight and I watch referees referee today and think to myself, maybe I wouldn't have played. Now I've been able to play now.

Really well, this is when you watch the way they operate and some of the games and some of the things that are punished with yellow cards and red cards, you sometimes wonder how it would have been in my day. You know, we were probably finish up six or eight.

So you played rough. Well, the game has to be rough. I mean, if you don't play the game rough, you you lose something from it. I mean, you don't become a great player like Bobby Charlton or Denis Law. When people allow you to play, I'll give you a time to play. I make excuses that nobody can tackle you to help you to play. You become a a good player and a great player through adversity, through having to fight and learn in these in these situations and how to avoid.

So it's all a bit tame for you these days, but it's getting a bit tame.

The game is becoming more of a passing game, more of a slow build up game, more of a continental game then than I like. I like the pace, the competition and the will to win that used to be in English football.

But you make it sound as if you were just, you know, a big, tough physical player, as we say, who got in people's way. But in fact, it ran deeper than that is in the genes.

What, didn't you have a grandfather? Oh, yeah, of course. We were brought up in a family. My brother and I and my other two brothers as well were brought up in a family where my mother was the sister of four professional footballers, Jack, George, Jimmy and Stan, who played for various football clubs up and down the country, and Jackie Milburn, who was me, my mother's full cousin. So I was brought up in a situation where the only thing you played in Washington was football.

I mean, there was nothing else, but it was your mother that drove it. Oh, mother drove it. Yeah. I mean, she was very much in love with the game of football. In fact, I one regret was that she was born a girl and not a boy.

Do you remember your first pair of football boots? Yes, I do. I bought them during the war. I saw an advert in the paper and my mother gave me ten shillings to go and have a look at these second hand pair of boots. And when I got there, there were Mansfield Hotspurs and I remember looking at the weather with big hard toes and I thought I'd never seen a pair of footballs like them. They were beautiful and they were about a size too big for me, but it didn't matter about them.

I argued with the woman she wanted ten shillings and I gave her it and I took two shillings back to my mother.

And how old were you?

I was about six or seven. I think at that time. You were a tough negotiator even then.

Well, I'd say I've always been a negotiator. I was brought up in an in an area where nobody was very rich. And if you wanted anything, you had to work for it. And I've always worked for things.

Tell me my first record first records of Fractionate in September. So I think it's a poignant song because it's virtually every person's life when you listen to it through. We have a house in the Yorkshire Dales and it's got and we've got a very old three bedroom suite upstairs and on the dresser. It's got like four tails at the beginning when you were born and your teens sort in the middle part of your life and then the part where the guy with the sickle comes out.

And and when you look at these and it's very old and and you think to yourself, yeah, you know, that's the full sort of parts of your life. And I always found this Frank Sinatra song like that September.

So when you reach September, when the autumn weather. Turn as the leaves to flame. One hasn't got gotten. Frank Sinatra and September song So you were born and bred, Jack, in the mining village of Ashington. What are your memories of that childhood home? And describe the house to me.

Well, the house was we didn't have a bathroom. We had a kitchen.

You went from the front door straight into the main street, the tin bath in front of the fire.

The house was always clean and spotless. I always remember my mother was a very good housekeeper and she would always have the house clean and tidy. And a curtains were the main thing in her life.

And you and your brothers, because you were the eldest one, you thought of you. Eventually you all shared a bedroom. You shared a bed.

Yeah, we all share a bed. I mean, we had a bedroom upstairs, which was my father's. And then we had the big bedroom next door, which we had a double bed. And Bobby Gold and Tommy and myself used to all sleep together in the winter, not always in the summer, because we also had a single bed. But in the winter it was very cold. Who slept in the middle was what you always used to fight over because that was a warm spot.

But who got it? Oh, usually me and you as the oldest.

Did you have to look after the others? Oh, yeah. You know, Bobbie, particularly I mean, Bobby was I think there's about 18 to two years and eight months between Millinocket, and I had to take him traipsing around and look after him during the day and make sure that he was OK. And I didn't like it. Why not? Well, I was a I like the sea. I like the countryside. I like to go bird nesting.

And I like to go picking Blackberries. I like to go mushroom and I like to go pick tables. And but we didn't probably was more of a I like to play football. I like to be around my mother. I like to be at home. And when I drag him off somewhere, you know, it wasn't it was I could have done more things without him than I do and I could do with him.

But as it turned out, in the end, of course, he began to succeed where you failed, didn't he? He he passed eleven.

Oh, yeah. And failed in that. Well, that's right. Yeah.

And of course, his footballing talent was spotted very early on and he was courted by eventually all those glamorous clubs around the country. How much did it stick in your craw?

I know people always want to know that. Not at all. I like playing football, but it wasn't the be all and end all of my life.

But is that why I won? Because he was so much better at you, it seemed early on at football. Is that perhaps why you nearly followed your dad down the pit? Because you had living in front of you every day of your life somebody who was actually rather better than you?

Well, I know, not really, because I could have gone to Leeds as a player. I could have gone to Newcastle and signed on and played for Newcastle. But I wasn't that interested in football. I was enjoying the sort of life that I had. I had a nice paper round. I delivered milk in the morning. I delivered groceries after school. That was a good earner as a kid.

But your mother was ambitious for you, wasn't she? She wanted she didn't want you down the pit. No, mother. No, no, no.

She didn't want us down the pit. And but I wasn't I wasn't that keen on leaving home.

But did she see football as the means of escape for football was always a means of escape from Washington or from any northeast town. I mean, either worked in the pit or you played football any and when you went lads that that had left us going away to play football. If they didn't succeed and had to come back, it was like a disgrace. That field I didn't want to go away and feel. I think that was probably the reason I didn't think I would make it.

I didn't think I was going to be good enough. But you've got to remember, I actually played football in the first time for Leeds United before I even went to Manchester United. I developed very quickly between the age of just coming up to 16 and 17. And I've actually played in the first half before I went in the army at seventeen. So I did develop and I did somebody must have seen that I had something to offer.

And do you remember how much you first pay packet was from Leeds United. Four point fifty. That was when I was a grown stuff lad. And now you're a millionaire. Oh, who told you.

Tell me about your next record, The Next Crocodile Shoes by Jimmy. Now, I've never met Jimmy Neil. I enjoyed watching him on the television and a couple of occasions when I managed to see the programmes he did from the Northeast and my crocodiles.

I love this song Crocodile Shoes trying to. Jimeno and Crocodile Shoes, you played for leads, Jack, for years and years before you were chosen to play for England. How old were you when the call finally came?

I was nearly everybody gets this mixed up a little bit. I was nearly 29.

But can you remember where you were when the call came? Oh, yes, I do. Exactly. I mean, I'd been picked to play for England, but I hadn't been told by Donlevy, the manager, he thought we would play Manchester United in the semifinal of the Cup in Nottingham. And I actually had no idea when we went into the semi-final that evening and we won and we got through the COFI and the other Bobby was playing.

Yeah, yeah.

And we came into the dressing room and then Don came across to me. He said, I've got some good news for you. He said, I didn't want to tell you before the game would you be picked to play for England against Scotland? And now when you were. I couldn't believe it. So I immediately got dressed and I went to the Manchester United dressing room to see our kid. And I walked into the room and all the players, all the money players just sat there with their heads in their hands.

You know, it was depressed or depressed to a degree after losing in the semi-final. I've gone through a few of them myself, and I walked across and sat down next to our kid and I said, you'll never guess.

And he went, Well, I said, I've been picked to play for England against Scotland. And he looked at me and he went, Oh, that's great. I'm delighted for you. And sort of that tone. And I mean, I suddenly looked around and I couldn't believe what I had done. I've walked into this semi to the to the dressing room of the team. I just lost in the semi-final with a smile all over my face. And and then I suddenly I realised what I'd done.

But you're not noted for your tact. I'm not notice for tact. No. I was so overjoyed. It never entered my head. I never thought about it. I just went in to tell our kid.

And of course, a year later, you and Bobby were in that World Cup side. As I said in the introduction against West Germany at Wembley July the 30th, 1966, I gather that you might have been responsible almost for losing it at one point because you kind of let it go in almost into that first German girl.

I remember seeing the ball come towards me and I sort of half stuck a foot out. And I, I think to this day I could have stopped. I could have put a foot to the ball. But I thought Gordon Banks was there and the ball wasn't hit that hard. It was the one you sort of saw coming in. So go past you. And it was sort of a slight mixture between the two of us. And it just fitted under Gordon's hand in Pass My Left Foot.

And after it, I thought I could have stopped that. But but then again, we we got back into the game.

And at the end, when you did win after extra time and you you went down on your knees and kind of prayed, I'm sure I prayed.

I don't know what I did. I ran all the way up to get a hold of Jeff Hurst because Jeff just got the fourth goal and I ran all the way up the park after an hour and a half of football and the extra time. And I ran all the way and went to an end. Jeff ran off in a different direction. And I turned around and I truly felt truly exhausted and it collapsed on my knees and I put my hands on my head.

I think I probably did say a little prayer, like, thank you, Lord, for the result or whatever.

But that day, as I say, July 1966, a day never to be forgotten, it never is forgotten. Even football fans today. You weren't born then, you know, talk about it as if they know it well and went through it with you. And yet you've been quoted since saying that that was a pleasure. That was surpassed later by things you subsequently achieved with people say to me, was that the most memorable day of your life?

And I say, well, not really, because when I got a kid or I, like Bobby Moore, hadn't been with them for years and years, erm and for this I just sort of commented on it and gone the time I felt the most. Joy was winning the league championship with Leeds Liverpool when we won it with a record number of points and we do with Liverpool one nil nil.

But was even that experience eclipsed by things that happened with Ireland?

That was the main thing. As a player, Joyce and management are totally different agenda. Joyce, as a player, I mean, you work for a result. You will you do your job, you're successful, you get the cup finals, you win cups, you win leagues. That's your job. When you're a manager, you've got to look after so many other things. The way the team is prepared, the knowledge that you prepare them with the amount of information you give them about the opposition.

And so that Joy, that Joyce is not for you, it's for other people. The joy for me was football. What is keep me joyful to the people was what we achieved in Ireland.

Tell me about your third record, Roger Miller, King of the Road. I actually met Roger Miller in Vancouver. I went in to see him in concert and I went to the back of the stage and said, Could I meet Roger Moore? And the guy said, yes, go through, knock on the door. I went through, knocked on the door. Guy came to the door. Roger Melendi said, yes. I said, I'm from.

Linda would I'm going home in the morning, I would like to meet and I went in, had a beer with him, stayed half an hour or so, had a great chat, and it was a very charming, nice man.

Trailer for sale or rent rooms to let 50 cents.

No, no, no pets, ain't got no cigarettes, but two hours of lotion. Brown a a 12 for big mama.

Man of means by no means king of the road.

Roger Miller, King of the Road and you retired. Jack is a player at the age of 38. You went straight into management. This was 1973. You ran Middlesbrough and then you ran Sheffield Wednesday and eventually got to Newcastle. You weren't there very long, but he was a guy there called Paul Gascoigne.

Yes, he spent a year at Newcastle and there was a young lad on the ground staff called Paul Gascoigne.

How could you spot then? Did you spot that he was the only one we played in the Youth Cup final at Watford, and it was then in the Newcastle Youth Team, which was that some very good players and we actually won. You've got that. Yeah. And got a plate. And he scored a goal, the likes of which I've never seen. He run across to the right hand side of the field, gather for the throw in first throw him has been taken just into the Watford half.

It took the pocket of his head turned and run with the ball across the field towards the corner flag running across the building. The guy was chasing them all the way across and then he suddenly stopped, checked. The guy slid past him. Paul turned around and the ball was right underneath his feet and it was about 25, 30 yards from goals. Now, in order to chip a goalkeeper from that distance, you would have pushed the ball away a yard in and tried to chip in.

But in that time you did that, the goalkeeper would have gone back and picked up a better position. Paul looked up, saw the goalkeeper of his line, and he took the outside of his right foot, like scooped it with the outside of his right foot. And the ball sort of bent went up in the air over the top of the goalkeeper who was going backwards and the ball bounced on the back of the net. That was when Gaza was just starting to come through as a player.

We put him on a high protein diet. We to pay for him to go on of his steak.

You weren't noted for spending a lot of money, were.

You know, I didn't I always felt that when you go to a football club, you should have a good look at what you got. And then when you find out what you need, then replace it. But you build a team, which should be a joke that managers used to say. Now go into the players and say, now, look, we've only got four matches to play, have a real effort this time, and then we'll get in the premier division, we'll get loads of money and we can go and buy better players to keep us there.

It used to be a joke. Now it's a reality. It's a reality. And you never know how people will perform at a higher level until you've given them the opportunity to show you.

But it's also all to do with the kind of chap you are.

Yeah, I've always been very, very I was brought up where money was important and you had to earn a living and I've always had to earn a living and everything might come in useful one day.

So you better hold on, hold onto it, use it to its full extent. Right. Maybe I've got that from your father. You know, he used to burn wool just to get the screws out in the nails and he'd straighten him out. No more scrutiny lately. Fine.

I caught him before the Dubliners and Dirty Old Town. I met the doubleness years ago when I used to coach in Vancouver many, many years ago, and I got introduced to them. They were on tour out there and it all become friends of mine since and typically Irish and what the Irish are about, you know, good music, good fun and enjoy yourself.

I heard a song. I run from the. Star trade. Set the night on fire. I smell the sweet. All the time that he holds the Dubliners and Dirty Old Town from a live recording they made in Amsterdam.

So, Jack, you were appointed manager of the Republic of Ireland in 1986. And immediately and stubbornly, they say you imposed your style of what they call kick and rush football.

I know people that have said that are totally wrong. We had to design a game that would frustrate international teams at a level we wanted to compete at. And I had to come up with a way of playing that would cause them problems. Nobody had ever put their defenders into a position to see if they could play. No, we always assumed they could play because you get so many numbers back and they can head the ball out, they kick the ball away in the play.

But nobody ever really applied what you call pressure and why I wanted to apply pressure. I'd seen the World Cup in Mexico. It was in 86 and it was like peas in a pod. Everybody played the same way through a playmaker in midfield. And unless the playmaker was in a good position to go with the back for, nobody would commit themselves forward. The team with the best center midfield player won the World Cup, which was Maradona playing for Argentina.

And I thought, we can't enter this fray the way they play because you hadn't got enough good players.

We've got we got we got we could get the players to play in a similar type of game, but we have had fifteen, ten to fifteen, twenty years start on playing that game. Now, for us to enter that fray and play that type of game would have been nonsense.

Well, let's just have it straight. This is because they would be playing with the ball, passing the ball in their own half, which is very dangerous, go very deep, come along and jumped in the go.

So you want to kick and kick in Rushmere, get it up the field as fast as you can. No, definitely not.

Definitely not. That was never the way everything was designed. Each player had what they what were they supposed to do if we got rid of the ball to a fullback? What you need to do is you need to pass the long ball to an area where your player knows the ball is going to be delivered. So he is already on his way there before the defender knows where the ball is going. And it began to work and it worked like a charm.

We we beat Brazil, but it depended on people playing exactly as you said. You almost as a manager want to program players, don't you, to have an instinctive reaction?

Oh, well, you can't program players in a way. It's unprogrammed players. See, I give each player one individual thing to do. John Aldridge know that when Dennis said when he got the ball, it right back that the ball would be knocked in behind the fullback. So John was programmed into going for that result and knew that the moment John got the ball first he had to be somebody in front of him and set thing for them to do.

It does make them into automatons doing well. Yeah, but you see only to a degree into the last third of the play of the park.

Some of your critics in Ireland said that this was a crude way of knowing that you were taking all that wonderful artistic stuff out of the game. What does people what is it all about?

It's about winning and it's about winning. It's about scoring goals. How you score them and how you go about it is a matter of opinion. Now, they might have had a different opinion to me, but I saw what was necessary for us to get results and to move the team. It amazes me that teams like Milan and many of the European teams now there's a terminology in European football called pressing. We were doing that in 1986, but now it's considered a good thing in the game of football to press.

The Irish were pressing people in eighty six.

We invented the game and as we say, it worked and it will. You even got to meet the pope as a result. And the pope, what is more recognized, Jack? What did he say to you?

I didn't know what I didn't want to go to because of all the lads are Catholics and all the officials are Catholics. And I was the only Protestant in the place. And he was talking a little Charlie Charlie OLeary, one of the lads. It looks after the kid. And and then he turned to me and he and his aides said, you missed it. This is Mr Charlton. And he just looked at me and he said, yes, I know.

He said the bus. Next piece of music.

Chris Berg, I never get it right. I always call him Kristy Berg. And the wife keeps telling me, I'm not saying it properly, but Chris is a good friend of mine and I've known him quite a few years. He follows the Irish team and he has done for many years. He sang Lady in Red after we lost to the Italians in Rome at four o'clock in the morning as the dawn was coming up. And he sang it for us.

And I would have played that one because that's my favorite. But it's been played all the time on radio. So I thought, well, let's go. Please don't pay the ferryman because I feel so fond of these bastards in a wild.

Oh. Love, I says, I love my dog died out of sight. Dr.. Too many men have found. Down, down, down on the back side, right down by the very high. Christa Berg and don't pay the ferryman from his album The Getaway.

So Jack Sheldon, you were, as you said, very much an outsider as far as Ireland was concerned. You didn't know much about it before you went there, but they they made you one of them because of all of this success. They made you a free man of the city of Dublin, an honorary Irishman. The T-shirt said, can you can you describe what that meant?

I was surprised, you see, because in England, we don't do that. You know, you've got to win something. If to won the World Cup, I would have expected it. But when you don't win it, when you get sort of get the last eight of the World Cup, which for a country the size of Ireland was amazing. I mean, it's the smallest country able to get that far.

And no real idea how it would build up, but it didn't happen immediately. It happened over a period of years when we went to Germany and then we went to America and then we went to Italy and and and we expect to see the Irish never changed. They weren't interested that, you know, we're not going to win the World Cup. They never even dreamt that that was a possibility that there might be some of them might. They said we've got a good chance and we always had a chance, but there was no real pressure applied on me.

The thing was to qualify.

But you still sound quite distanced, as it were, from the adulation. You sound like somebody who observed this adulation and wondered at it. Did it did it touch you?

No, I don't like the word adulation that it's it's not one that that. And the friends of mine, I like to think of the Irish as friends of mine. I mean, I've I've met thousands and thousands of them have a stop in a pub or a stop in the restaurant on the way across Ireland. Invariably, somebody sends me a pint of Guinness over there. Somebody pays for me meal or somebody that won't take the money. And they are still observing how they are there.

But what does it do to you? What did you feel?

I don't know. I don't know. Grateful, grateful. I think that's the only word I can use.

There's another bit of analysis of Jack Charlton that comes into play here, which is that all of that success in Ireland was perhaps even more important to you than it might have been because it was the first time you stepped out from behind the shadow of your younger brother that you did something you achieved something that he never did. Not really.

I mean, Archie's pretty well. I won competitions that he didn't win. He won competitions and I didn't win. But we had as far as winning things in and putting things on the table, I did as well eating out as he did with Manchester United. But he never managed a team, you know? Well, no, we prepare ourselves in a different way.

I was always a coach. I went through military school days and I went through all my sessions and I spent years and years and years until they made me staff coach at the age of about 27. I always wanted to go into management. I'm not sure that our kid was prepared properly for what it was like to make the decisions. When you get involved in coaching, you got to make the decisions. And maybe my character, that's a little bit different.

I don't know. But jealousy. No, I was sorry that he didn't make it in management. I wish you had I wish you hadn't made it in management. You know, we were probably be better friends if he had it done. I mean, he moving away and going to be a director and to be looking for the higher echelons of the game of football is maybe what just pushed us apart a little bit over the years. Maybe if had had something in common like problems of being a manager over a period of 20 odd years, maybe we would have been better friends.

Who knows?

Well, music, Red Rose Cafe, we've all been in this sort of situation. And it's a song that we used to sing on the bus when we went to games with the team and with the Irish and put it. But it's happened to me all through my footballing life. You always finished up in Lisbon and Amsterdam and in some Red Rose Cafe where you went for a drink and it was always the characters about and the girls sat at the bar.

The kids of today are soon washed away. With green eyes, the Rolling Stone shirt doesn't look like she walks on the. He's a very good friend of a man who says cars that can harm. Red Rose Cafe by the Furies. So, Jack, you bought your mum and dad a house with your 1966 World Cup bonus, didn't you? And you looked after a really for for the rest of her life?

Well, I kept in touch with them all the time. And I mean, I've always lived in the Northeast and so I saw quite a lot of them. And but you looked after if I looked at my house in 1966 for the first time in their lives, they had a toilet and a kitchen and a bathroom. And it was it was wonderful.

Nice feeling that, though, for you to be able to give give them that.

Yeah, it was actually I mean, it wasn't particularly that it was the money was quite a lot. It was. But it was it was something that I'd always thought that I would do for them when I could afford it and get them out of of where they lived.

Hmm. And then your father died, of course, back in 82, but your mother died earlier this year. And I think that most people remember you for Charlton boys carrying her coffin.

And people will also remember talk of a rift in the family that Bobby hadn't seen her before.

I don't really want to get involved with that, too. Bobby did what Bobby wants to do. I mean, it was strange to me. I couldn't understand why there was a rift between Bobby and me mother. I couldn't understand it. And I really don't understand it to this day from being very much your home boy and a lad. That was his mother's apple of his mother's. I suddenly you stop going home. I don't know why.

And has that damaged your relationship with him? Oh, I think so. I think so. How deeply damaged.

Only time will tell. I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't ignore him. I walk in and I have ignored him on the odd occasion. But I regret that. That's silly. That's silly. Life's too short to argue about things like that. And he's still our kid. He still our kid and he's still my brother. And I'm sure one of these days will will either have a good fight or we'll have a good argument over it.

Record number seven, Christy Moore and delirium tremens, and it's not a song I know very well of Kristy's or I didn't think when I heard the title then when I heard the song, I've been singing it for a long eight years and it's a good song and it's one of Christie's best.

I looked out from under the blanket over the fireplace. The Pope and John F. Kennedy were staring in my face.

Suddenly it dawned on me I was getting the old 80s when the child began to dance around the mantelpiece, could be deported and ready to devote to could take to despair and the havoc, the battle thereafter, as I said in this ad, couldn't figure it out a and stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen points or Christy Moore and delirium tremens from his album Ordinary Man. So Jack, you could I mean, obviously from everything you said, I mean, you're 61 years old.

You could put your feet up tomorrow if you wanted to. But if the phone rings and it's a club that wants managing, I get the feeling that you'd be there.

Whether I want to go back into the game of football is I'll find out before the end of this football season whether I miss it or not, whether I miss the involvement, whether it's time that I called it a day, I will know. I would know better after I've been out of the job for a year or so.

But if the call came and it was to managing, let's just put Glenn Hoddle for the purposes of this question to one side. I mean, you'd be out there like a shot.

Oh, always. I've always wanted to manage England. I would love to have managed England at some stage, but I've never been in a situation where the job was right at the time. I want to shoot a letter in Applied and never got a reply. And I can never understand that. It made me feel a little bit better about the way I was thought of an English football. This idea that people think that all I know about a kick and watch game of football nonsense, I know the game from it.

It is Ed in every way you want to play. I can play it, but I play what's necessary to suit the team that I'm working with and playing with.

So you're flexible and you're available.

Allow your football with anybody in the world.

Last week of Last Resort, Lee Marvin and Wandering Star, I did a bit of this and we kind of wandered all over the place. And if anybody followed a wandering star, it's been me. Much like your prisoner and the plains can bake you dry snow can burn your eyes, but on. People make you cry home is made for coming from for dreams of going to college with an. Emails and wandering star and what's wanting to get out and can sing better than him.

You can call it sounded quite good to me. If you could only take one of those eight records, Jack, which one would it be if I could take one of the eight records?

I think it would be September song by Frank Sinatra. I've listened to him all my life up to now. And why change?

What about a book? You've got the Bible and Shakespeare there.

The book I wanted it really was was the one on survival. I would like an encyclopedia of how to survive in the wild and just to help me along with what I already know, it's probably against the rules because it's a bit practical, but I think if that's what you want.

And what about a luxury, a luxury fishing rod?

I have to have a fishing rod. I mean, I expect to get some hooks with it. I mean, I can sit all day on the rocks catching nothing and just looking around in it and relaxing and enjoying it. And with the expectancy that I might get something, of course, on a desert island, I would have to catch something. So a fishing rod would also be a necessity. And it would make you happy. It would make me very happy.

Jack Charleton, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs. Thank you. So.

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