BBC sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were castaway to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening. My castaway this week is director general of the National Trust, Hillary McCrady. This year marks the 25th anniversary of Europe's largest conservation charity.

There were set to welcome their six millionth member when the coronavirus pandemic struck. Now it faces its biggest crisis since the Second World War. Luckily, my castaway isn't afraid of a challenge and knows firsthand the enormous therapeutic value that the National Trust special places can provide during difficult times. Her own love of the outdoors took root in childhood. The peace that she found hell walking in the Northern Irish countryside was an escape from the troubles tearing her country apart. She hopes to use her own experience to help weather the current storm.

The charity's portfolio is mind boggling 500 properties from stately homes like Chartwell and Clifden to the suburban Semih, where John Lennon grew up, 780 miles of British coastline and almost a thousand square miles of countryside. It's her job to ensure that it's fit for future generations, she says. I want to look forward to write the next chapter in this story of a nation's love of nature, beauty and history. Hilary McGrady, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you.

It's lovely to be here.

So, Hilary, the impact of the pandemic on the trust has been huge. And you said recently that the National Trust is an organisation that people turn to in times of trouble. Why is that?

Well, for lots of different reasons. People, when they're under stress, they return to the thing that they know that they can find comfort in. The day that we had to close our doors, that was the first time ever that the trust had to close all of our properties. And millions of people find comfort in beautiful places, whether that's in the outdoors going for a walk or whether that's a garden that they go to with their family, where they have that special relationship with the police and with the people that they visit with.

So it's not surprising there was such a clamor for people to get to our properties during Kofod. That continues to be the case.

Now, as I mentioned, you're a keen walker. You say you're not very pleasant to be with if you haven't been outside. How have you managed during lockdown?

Well, I'm really fortunate to live in the country and I need headspace whether I go for a walk or whether I go for a run. That basic instinct of needing access to nature, fresh air. I mean, I definitely am a little bit like Activia Hill in that sense, that the value of the simplicity of being in the outdoors and how good that is just for mental health and for general health is something that's very, very important to me.

Octavia Hill, one of the founders of the National Trust, 125 years since she started it, the portfolio of the trust is vast. And that includes, of course, 500 historic properties that run from the ground to the esoteric. Do you have a favorite, I wonder?

Well, it's like being asked to choose a favorite child. Literally, every time I go to a property, you know, I will find something that is my favourite. If I could transport myself to all of them, I it would be to Chrome, which is in Fermanagh in Northern Ireland. And if you were to go there, it is the most peaceful, tranquil, just gorgeous place. And I could do with a little bit of tranquillity right now.

All right. Well, how about some music to go with it? It's desk number one, Hillary. What are we going to hear and why have you chosen it?

Do you know what? This is just about perfect for Chrom. It's Lark Ascending by Raffone Williams. The Sound of a Lark Rising is one of the most beautiful songs you could ever imagine. And then, as it happens, the National Trust owns Raffone Williams Home in Lethal in Surrey.

So this track is almost a collision of both the amazing built heritage that the trust looks after, the nature that is so important from a restorative point of view, but also just from a protection point of view. And so this track reminds me of everything that I think is amazing about the trust.

Part of Lark Ascending, composed by Ray Vaughan Williams, performed by Tasmin Little with the BBC Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Sir Andrew Davis, Hilary McGrady, The National Trust was founded by Octavia Hill, Canon Hardwick Rawnsley and Sir Robert Hunter.

And its aim at the time was to ensure that green spaces could, and I quote, be kept for the enjoyment, refreshment and rest of those who have no country house. Your big focus for the next decade or one of your main focuses is climate change. The trust is pledged to become carbon neutral by 2030. One of their ideas is to rebuild 25000 hectares. I know that you think rewilding has become an emotive term, but why is that important?

Rewilding has become an emotive term and it's not particularly helpful, to be honest. What it simply means is trying to make more space for nature and to allow our land to be able to be both productive, but also not to damage our nature. So what will almost inevitably be the case is that some areas are suitable for rewilding and a lot of areas will not be. And, you know, it must be a much more nuanced answer to this to say, well, can we work with partners as to what parts of our land can be used for rewilding, which parts are better for access for people on which parts are better for productive farming?

And how do you manage the tension between the more progressive element of your membership and the more conservative?

I manage that by practice because the experience that people get at our properties is overwhelmingly and we see this through TripAdvisor, we see it through our own research overwhelmingly positive. And for those that say we're turning our backs on our houses, two thirds of our money is spent on caring for our houses and for our collections. But what we are trying to do is bring the importance of the environment and nature in particular, more into focus, because do you know what that is?

What's most under threat at the moment? Our countryside is being built over and our nature is declining. And those two things are really massively important and we need the country to step in and play its part in protecting it.

It's time to hear your second track today. What is it and why are you taking it to the island?

So this track is high great by art and I think most people look to their parents as being, you know, their foundation stones. And certainly my father and my mother, they came through the war. They were very I suppose people would call them traditional parents. I was taken to church every Sunday morning, sat on an impossibly hard, cold wooden pews. I always remember there was a lady that sat behind us and she used to feed me sweets to try to keep me from fidgeting.

But this was his favorite hymn. And, you know, he imbued me with the value of hard work and being respectful of people around you. Everybody has a part to play and you have to respect the different people will come with different views. And your job is to try to find a way of working with people, not against them.

And I will always be grateful then sings My soul, my savior, God to thee. How great thou. How great that was. Then sings My soul, my savior, God to thee.

How great thou art, how great thou. Chris Rice and how great thou art Hillary McGrady now the great outdoors and our cultural heritage are, of course, the focus of your career now, but I wonder what your experience was of those things as a little girl?

Well, I was the youngest or well of three children. My brother was five years older than me, so I was always left behind, which was really infuriating. As a child, I was always too little to join in. I had a dog called Shadow and I just would disappear for hours walking up the hills behind where I lived. And I really, from a really young age, developed a love of being in the outdoors, a love of nature, and my favorite place to be stood on a hillside or on a mountain just away from everybody.

Actually, you grew up in Staniford, 20 miles west of Belfast, with your mum, Susan, and your dad, Wesley. And you describe that strict upbringing when it came to church, but also encouraging you to get out into nature. So it kind of sounds firm, but fair. Is that how it was?

Firm affairs? Absolutely. How you would sum it up? You know, they were a very loving pair, but not overly demonstrative. I would say dad was incredibly hard working. He worked all hours and then he came home and worked a bit more. He was a builder and he was a builder. He left school at age 14 to care for his parents. And mom equally worked. She took a job and I must have been about six or so.

She took a job, but he was not happy about that in the first instance because it wasn't the done thing for the wife to go right to work. But she was very stubborn and decided she wanted to have her own income. She was full of life and full of fun and quite mischievous, but never, ever stopped. She was on the move or working or scheming at some kind of new idea all of the time. And I've definitely inherited that from her.

What do you think their hopes were, your parents' hopes for your future?

Well, that's funny because at age 11, I have such a distinct memory of this. My headmaster at the time, I must have been in the room, but I do remember him saying this, that actually my mum should expect me to be a hairdresser because I was creative, but I was definitely more vocational with the time. And Mom actually rather liked the idea of that because I could get a job three miles down the road in the local time, you know, marry and have children.

And that would all be good. And that's what she wanted for me. And that was kind of the destiny for everyone. And absolutely nothing wrong with it, by the way. But that's what she imagined that I would be doing. And it was a matter of shock to both of them, actually, that I went to art college because they were not impressed with them. I remember my dad said so clearly you're going to end up painting pictures on the pavements.

And he really had such an awful fear of that. But, hey, it hasn't happened yet. It hasn't happened yet.

Time to take a moment for some more music. Hillery this is desk number three, Blue Monday by New Order. This track just makes me smile because at age, I don't know. It must be about 15. I discovered the delights of disco. My social life up to that point had been to the local youth club. But I remember there was a girl at school who was very glamorous and we all were very jealous of her. She had a birthday party at the local disco and we spent at least two weeks getting prepared for this big night out and Blue Monday was playing.

And I will always remember because myself, my three other friends who I remained friends with ever since we danced the night away to this will always remind me of that first big night out. How does it feel like you do? Ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, New Order and Blue Monday.

Hillary McGrady born in 1966. You were a teenager then during the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland. What sort of understanding did you have of what was happening around you?

I think I must have been about 12 or 13 before I realised this isn't actually normal. Not everybody else lives like this. Everywhere you went, there would be roadblocks. If you would go into Belfast, everybody checked. You were then searched again before you go into a shop. You know, bomb scares were really regular occurrence. I even managed to create one myself. I left my school bag at the at the bus stop and went up into the time and I would do this quite often.

I got distracted and missed the bus, came back only to realise my school. It was left. Everybody else had gone, but they'd cordoned off the street and the army were all pointing their guns at my school bag. So that sounds bizarre, but that was true and that's how life was formed.

And not just bomb scares, but bombings were commonplace. And that seems to offer the terrible choice of either living with fear or to some extent, becoming desensitized to what's happening. How did that impact you?

Well, I definitely think I fell into the category of desensitized. And if I look back on it now, it was a terrible, insidious thing that every aspect of your life was actually put on hold or put in degree mode, those people who were directly impacted, but the vast majority people were indirectly impacted. And it leaves a horrible legacy, actually.

So when you say Greenmount, I mean, the psychological consequences of that kind of prolonged stress can be pretty profound, even if you don't have a direct kind of experience of serious danger hided going through the troubles shape who you are, do you think?

I think that's exactly right. There was this sort of insidious sense of wit that was on Northern Ireland and actually, to some degree is still there to this day. Hyde impacted me, though I think I probably am a more resilient person and probably someone who is really determined to find a way. And I think this definitely ended up why I love the trust so much. There are ways that you can bring people together. You know, you can use culture as a reason to divide, but you can also use it as a way of bringing people together.

And the trouble started anything. It it really made me feel determined that I could be both British and I am absolutely British, but I could also be proud of my Irish heritage and that I could find ways to bring those two things together.

What kind of conversations happened in the house when you were growing up? Were there often political debates, discussions about what was going on?

Yeah, very much so. I would have been about fourteen or fifteen and my brother had gone to Queen's University and for the first time moved in to a student flat with two other Catholic lads and really opened my brother's eyes to, in their case, Irish music, Republican perspectives. And so he would bring those debates back home. And I just remember these furious debates around the kitchen table at night because my parents were very, very loyalist. They just were shocked to the core that my brother at that point could could even be contemplating a mixing with Catholics and be potentially be in any way sympathetic with any of their views.

But it's certainly shift my perspective in terms of wanting to know more about Irish culture. It forced me to to think about these issues and for my own opinions.

It's time for your next desk, Hillary. What's it going to be? So this one is she moves through the fair by Kara Dillon. After I left school, I went to college initially. I did fine art and I then foolishly chose to move into graphic design. It wasn't a great choice from a career point of view. But on the upside, the best bet that came out of our college was that I met my husband, a very good friend, Leslie Cleveland.

She signed this as I walked up the aisle to just one chord on a violin. And it was slightly spine chilling. It was just beautiful.

My no said to me my. Hello, miss. Slated for your lack of killing, and she stepped away from me.

Nabila Cardell, Dylan, and she moved through the fair, so that's a special track, Hillary McGrady for you and your husband, Frank. So your brother's Irish folk records caused a bit of a stir when he brought them home. I wonder how your husband, Frank, went down when you brought him up as a potential suitor. You met him at school. He's Catholic.

He is. And I didn't bring him home for the first three years for exactly that reason. It took a long time before I was brave enough to introduce him to my parents and they really struggled initially. I think they kept hoping that it was actually going to fizzle out, but it didn't. It only got stronger. But to his credit and to their credit and my dad in particular, by the time my dad died, you know, Frank was just the best thing ever.

And they had an incredibly good relationship at the end of it.

How do you look back on their anxieties about the relationship now? Because they would have been frightened for you.

Maybe they were really frightened for us. We bought a house in a small village where we still live, and it was all me. But two years later that a Catholic girl and boy, this was literally about 100 metres away from where we live. Somebody walked in and shot the two of them, and the girl sadly died. And so this was a very real threat and not surprising that my parents were worried for us.

It's time for some more music. What are we going to hear next? And why have you chosen this? So this track is one by U2. It was a concert by U2 where Bono brought John Hume and David Trimble on stage. And there was this moment and it was an iconic moment where they raise their arms in recognition and celebration of the achievement of, you know, the Good Friday Agreement and what that meant for our country. And for me, that was a really seminal moment where I really felt hope for Northern Ireland, that we could move forward in a place where we could compromise and we could respect each other's cultures.

And it really worries me now that we're letting that slip away.

You know, with so much in the press at the moment about borders being built again, I just think we've got to collectively do everything in our power to make sure that we do not go back to those dark days, because that would be a complete travesty and absolutely a dereliction for future generations. And we cannot let that happen.

Again, in. But do you feel the same? Will it make it easier for you now? One line when it's one need the name.

Once we get Sarah into and one Hillary McGrady after art school, he spent a year working in design.

You know, you describe that as a foolish choice. You then moved into marketing and from there into brand management at Gilbee Spirits Company. I know that you were working under a CEO called Trevor McLintock and you describe him as inspirational. I think he had quite an unusual management style.

He did. He was completely all style. But oh, my goodness, I owe Trevor McLintock so much. He gave me a job because he saw something in me. I wasn't qualified for that job at all. And he saw something in me. They call it recruiting for attitude these days. And Trevor went to some degree with his gut and really supported people when he saw that people wanted to work hard. He worked hard for them. He was very Alstyle directive.

We used to call him the boss. I mean, that's one of magni. But he worked incredibly hard. But I owe him a big debt because without him I wouldn't be in the job. I'm in line.

After he worked at Gilby, you changed tack and you went from marketing spirits to working in the charity sector. And quite soon after you were seconded to to work on Belfast's bid to become the European capital of culture in 2008. You say that was your hardest job. Why?

It was the hardest job until it got this far. Yes, it was extraordinarily hard because as with everything in Northern Ireland, you had all all sorts of people. They wanted to use the bed for their own purpose. And so the job was really to try to use what was going to be this massive opportunity to bring culture together to credit Belfast City Council. They had the vision to say this was something that really was an opportunity. And I'm not sure that very many people thought that they were going to win.

But they did see it as a huge opportunity to use culture in a positive context to get investment into the cultural sector, which had been neglected for decades. And so even though they didn't win, the legacy lives on you. You've got you two, three theatres were built in that time, several art centres. And actually it laid the foundation for Derry Londonderry for their ultimately successful bid in the city of culture later on.

So when it came to working with two communities who had very different visions of what they wanted the bid to include and as you see in culture, to tell their version of a story, how did you work through those conflicts and bring those two sides together?

Well, I did then what I continue to do, which is ultimately down to relationships, you know, I had endless cups of tea and cups of coffee, and I endlessly walked around different arts groups and different community groups trying to understand what it was that they wanted from this because they all had valid things that they wanted to bring to the party. And really, if you don't have a relationship, you can't expect people to understand what you're trying to achieve.

And when the bid wasn't successful, it must have been a huge blow. How do you handle failure? Not very well.

I really don't feel failure very well, OK. What does that look like?

Well, you know, I inevitably go through some sort of grieving process of which, you know, first stages that I blame myself entirely for everything. It was all my fault, of course.

And then you then you start to rationalise what worked, what didn't work, what would you do and what wouldn't you do again. But you have to feel at things in order to grow and to get better. And ultimately, what I learnt through that process has absolutely stood me in good stead for the job was done in the National Trust right at the start. And certainly goodness, certainly I've been drawn on on what I learnt over the last number of months.

It's time for your next desk right now. Hilary, what are we going to hear and why have you chosen? We're going to hear just say yes by snow patrol. And it relates completely to the capital of culture. But this was the anthem that the Derry Londonderry City Culture Bed used, and they played it on the night that they heard that they'd won. And it was such a moment. I watched it on television and I was just so pleased that absolute moment of, you know what?

This is another example of where culture is a force for good. Apart from that snow patrol I absolutely adore, that was the last concert that myself and my entire family went to. And, you know, they're a success story for Northern Ireland. And I love them, actually. I just think they're brilliant. Snow patrol and just say yes, so Hillary McGrady, you joined the National Trust in 2006 and I think until then it had an appeal to you.

Now, why ever not?

Well, for lots of reasons. If I'm being honest, National Trust, first of all, wasn't that big in Northern Ireland. And again, because of the troubles, they had, not surprisingly, kept their heads well down, you know, perceived largely to be a British institution for a long time, big house syndrome. Quite a lot of our houses during that time would have been lived in by Custodian's and little by St. in Armagh direction. Caldari more the custodian left it.

And I kid you not lifted a pipe bomb that was left at the door of this house and took it down to the gate and then walked back up and running the place and said, you might want to come along, sort this. Yeah, that's the kind of thing that happened. So actually I wasn't that aware of the trust until about age 14. I was taken on a school trip to Mountstuart, which is on the shores of Australia, gridlock, just the most beautiful property home in the Castlereagh family.

And I remember walking in and just being completely thrown. I'd never been anywhere that looked so rich in all my life, you know, beautiful, beautiful furniture and paintings. And traditionally, of course, we were met with this rather stern looking lady and sort of sensible shoes, looking at us very sort of suspiciously telling us not to touch anything at all. And we were all terrified. Of course, we walked through the house with arms, clamped our sides in case we would touch anything.

But I was blown away by the art in it. And one of I think. And how could you ever have enough money to live in a house like that? And it's just amazing. But that was my only experience of the trust. And I thought it was terribly, terribly English and not really for me. So it was a long time after that before I realised that actually the National Trust was a lot more than than just houses and gardens.

It was about the outdoors and it was when. And this all corresponded with coming out of the Good Friday Agreement and trying to open up spaces that were for everyone when the National Trust bought Devers Mountain, ah, bought the wrong word when it was given by the Ministry of Defence. It was a real moment where I thought, my goodness, this is an organisation that is about open space, common space, space, where you can go and it doesn't matter who you are or where you come from and development.

And in particular, the idea that the the Mod had given it to the trust. Why was that important?

Well, it was giving back a contested space. It was garrisoned by the MOD because it had a particular vantage point over West Belfast. So it felt like a very important symbolic moment that it was being given back to the community and given back in a way that it wasn't given to any one community, it was given to everybody. And for the trust to be the custodian of that I thought was really, really significant and continues to be. But still today, the access to service is still up through West Belfast.

My ambition at some point is to be able to get different access points to different communities, feel more able to to access it more easily. So the whole problem isn't solved yet. But, you know, we've had a massive amount of progress this time.

Soul Music Desk number seven, what is it and why are you taking this with you to the island?

This is Gabriel's or by Ennio Marconi. This track, I think I probably play just about every Sunday in life or have played and every Sunday life. We we live in a what was a lot keeper's house. We bought it way back.

And that's been a life's work really ever since.

Obviously it's on a canal and we can sit on the edge and watch Kingfisher's the up and down.

We've got a small one who has really become very tame and he comes up and picks the door to be fed. It's just the most beautiful place, my happy place.

And we play this when we want to relax. Ennio Morricone with Gabriel's Oboe, Hillary McGrady The National Trust has been affected by the recent Black Lives Matter protests, you'd already commissioned a report into the colonial links of your properties. And it's been published and shows that 93 have a substantial connection to slavery and to Britain's colonial past. What does that mean for their future?

What it means for the future is that we'll be able to tell the history in its fullest sense. We've known for a very long time, of course, that there have been all sorts of connections to slavery from many of our houses. One of the first questions people will ask is where did the wealth come from? Black Lives Matter did bring it more into focus and did, I guess, accelerate the issue. But this is something we've been working on for a long time now.

20, 30, 40 years ago, we didn't even tell the story of downstairs. We only told the story about the family and really the links to slavery. Colonialism is another layer of information that we want to add into the understanding we have. Of all places. It's no more or no less than that. It's a matter of huge frustration for me, to be honest, that this thing about it's blaming and shaming, it's none of that. It's about understanding and acknowledgement.

And again, maybe it is something to do with my background. But I just think if you cannot get yourself to a place where you can acknowledge the past, how can you understand what the future is going to be like? It's a really sensitive issue. And I understand that, you know, it upsets me that people have found it so difficult. I certainly that was not my intention at all.

Also, as an organisation, how challenging is it for you to strike a balance between recreation and education? Because, you know, the fact is some members just want to walk around a big house and then have a green tea. Others are up for something more challenging.

That's exactly right. And we are we use the term. We're a broad church and we are. And I love the fact that people just want to come along and be set on a garden and have a picnic. And then there'll be other people that want to be close to a Rembrandt and understand the background as to why we have it. And we should, as an organisation, be able to stretch right across that. But I think that's one of our strengths that, you know, we stretch across so many interests and we talk about people paddling and we talk about people diving.

And I want to be able to do all of that. But that's not easy.

It's time for one more desk before we send you to the island. What are we going to hear?

I have three fabulous children that have just had probably a one off wonderful in some senses, opportunity to be able to spend six months during covered with them. They're all in their 20s now and they keep me young, challenged me all of the time, which is great. And they also introduce me to their own music. This track is very mainstream. I know, but it just reminds me of driving along with my daughter with this full volume, the two of us singing at the top of our voices.

This is Paradise by George Ezra.

My love, my love, love, love. I'm in paradise whenever I'm with. My, my. My mom and my mom will go to paradise whenever I'm with you, right on, right on down the road, I will find you. I will do this. It's long. It's a mighty long road. But I'll find you. I will do it. I'll be. Something that I feel George, Ezra and Paradise, so it's time to cast you away to your island, Hillary McGrady will give you the books to take with you while you're there.

The Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare and a book of your choice to watch Luppi.

So my book is actually a gift that someone gave me. It's a poem a Day by Al Jazeera is perfect for me, actually, because I don't have a lot of time to read his essay, but I can just about squeeze in a little poem every day. So I would take that book away with me and I would read a poem every day until somebody came and rescued me.

I can also offer you a luxury item.

What would you like to treat yourself to during covid? Funny as the means of calming my brain and getting away from work, I ordered a huge slab of clay and it took me back to my college days and I did a bit clay modeling. But I think this case, I think I bring a box of oil paints and some brushes and I would wipe away my hours painting. Fabulous. So you can have that.

And finally, if you had to save just one of your eight tracks today, which would you go for?

I think I would go with. She moves through the fair.

Carondelet, Hillary McGrady, thank you very much for sharing your Desert Island Discs with us. Thank you.

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