BBC sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And for right reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening. My castaway this week is the singer and actor, Sir Cliff Richard. He's been castaway on Desert Island Discs once before, some 60 years ago.

Back then, he told presenter Roy Plomley that he was celebrating the fact he just left his teens and that the 10 singles he'd released had all been shot hits, though he admitted he was keeping his fingers crossed as he didn't know how long his lucky streak would last. Well, he needn't have worried. His chart success in the U.K. has been eclipsed only by his hero, Elvis Presley and one time rivals the Beatles. He's released over 100 albums, sold well over 250 million records, and is the only British artist to score no ones in five consecutive decades.

As an artist, he is at once familiar and enigmatic. His career has seen many transformations from rock and roll to Night of the Realm, teen heartthrob to born again gospel singer and from Wired for Sound Disco King to veritable Christmas tradition. The critics haven't always been kind, but fans continue to adore him, and 60 years in the spotlight has earned him a special place in British popular culture. He says, I've always maintained I'm the most radical rock and roll singer Britain has ever seen.

I didn't do drugs. I didn't get drunk. I didn't indulge in soulless sex. And I've always felt comfortable with the decisions I've taken. I like being Cliff Richard. Sir Cliff Richard, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you very much indeed.

Now, amazingly, it was October 1960 that we first dropped you off on our island. So I'm going to start by taking you back to that recording, if you don't mind.

No, I don't mind at all. Is it a fact that you can't move about easily in the streets without the risk of being mugged in town? The slightly more blasé about it, because I think they're used to bumping into people, you know, but in the provinces, they don't hesitate to see someone they know from the screen. They don't hesitate to gather around it. And that means that, you know, the buttons of your clothes or you can quite easily get me to do any harm.

What really does it feel listening back to your younger self?

The thing is, what I can't relate to is that I sound quite confident back there, didn't I? I mean, because I was only about when I was only 20.

How do you look back at that young man now? Well, you know, someone asked me if I could if I could advise that young Cliff Richard about anything. What would you say? And I'd say I would actually say to him, do whatever you're going to do, because apparently it worked. Yeah.

Now, that clip you were talking about, your fans, fans can, of course, be very fickle, but yours have remained steadfast since the very earliest days.

Have you managed to keep them with you through the ups and downs of your recording career and all of that time that's passed?

Yes, it's been it's been better than I could ever have expected. I mean, first of all, I didn't think that we would last that long. The shadows and they were clumped together with a lot of rock and rollers who were considered here today, gone tomorrow. One hit wonders, the suddenly 10 years have gone by. And I thought, oh, I still got fans, I'm still making records, I'm still having hits. And I still welcome the fact that fans are willing to come out and see me perform.

I mean, you have to get realistic as you get older. And I realize now that I wouldn't be able to go and fill the Wembley Stadium as I did twice, once before. So as long as there's one or two people that will come and see me, I can still perform.

Well, let's get started then. It's time for your first disc, said Cliff Richard. What's it going to be and why have you chosen this today?

Well, first of all, the title sounds right for an island, doesn't it? Rolling in the deep, I assumed that I might be able to swim on the island and rolling in the Deep by Adele was such a fantastic track. I loved the song, but I've chosen to take Aretha Franklin with me. I mean, I've been a fan of her voice.

That voice is, for me, the greatest voice ever.

There's a fire burning in my heart reaching a fever pitch, and it's bringing me out of the dark. And finally, I can see a crystal clear go ahead and sell me out and I'll let you see. I will live with every part of you. Of the things that I will do, the. Rolling in the deep Aretha Franklin, so Sir Cliff Richard, you were born Harry Roger Webb in Lucknow in what was then British India in 1940. And your father, Roger, was manager of a catering company that service the Indian Railways.

What do you remember about your early years there?

Well, you know, I left there when I was still seven. I had my eighth birthday in England. So my childhood memories.

But the ones I remember of I mean, independence had come in in 1947 and there was there was kind of civil war kicking off.

So I can remember that, you know, being in bed and thinking, boy, there's a bang bang.

I mean, your dad like like many fathers of his time, although you had a lot of fun together. He was also quite a strict disciplinarian. Was there a side of him that you were a little bit scared of as a kid?

Yes. I mean, it bordered on being a bit fearful. And I think sometimes if you're actually going to actually end up admiring someone just because they're strong. So I was a bit afraid of upsetting him. The would Indian word that I remember was a job and it was really a clip around, Errol, if you know what I mean. My mother, I feel was a terrific balance. You know, if he did that, if he clouted me round the head because I'd done something wrong with all of it and chose to run to mum and she'd say, well, you must have done something that upset your father.

And in the end, when you start to talk to your mother, who's so gentle with you, you have to admit to her. Yeah, I did do that. She said, well, don't do it again. So I thought there was a yin and yang thing going on with my mum and dad. I mean, my father influenced me much more than I thought. And I loved the one thing he said to me I'd recorded move it, but it hadn't been released, the first record.

And he'd said to me, You really want this? And I said, Yeah, I really want this. He said, well, from now on, you're going to have to be the best at it that you can be. You can never let up. So I guess that's all part and parcel of my being able to focus so firmly on where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do.

And I guess, yeah, I don't guess I know it came from my father.

In 1947, India gained its independence and you and your family moved to England to cut out. In the following year you were seven and it was a tough time for everyone. You had a very comfortable life in India, but your dad struggled to find work back home, didn't he? Had four kids to support.

We arrived with five pounds sterling, which I've looked up. I think it's about 200 pounds. Now, if you can imagine how you have a wife and four children and survive on 200 pounds and not work. And I can remember three meals, three main meals a week were a Super Bowl with two slices of toast with tea poured over it. Milky tea and sugar sprinkled on it. Yeah.

I mean, and you were living in was it just one room, two rooms at the time? Yeah, there was a period. My my father had a sister who lived in Waltham Cross in Hertfordshire. She had a spare room. It's only a small room but there were six of us in that room. I think we had bunk beds and each side of the walls. So it was a narrow section in the middle that we lived in.

But because of having lived in that condition is the reason why we got jumped up the the waiting list for council house.

And of course, it felt like a palace once you got into it, because suddenly we had two and a half bedrooms, two bedrooms and a little box room, which eventually became my bedroom. Even now, speaking about it, I'm so grateful to have gone through that. It makes you much more thankful and grateful for what's happening now. I mean, look at how I live now. I wake up in Barbados and open the curtains and think, how did I get here?

It's time for your second desk today. Why have you chosen this?

The song was written for me by Terry Britton, who who wrote Devil Woman and a bunch of other songs from Ian and produced an album with me as well. And somehow or another, the demo that he sent to my office got sent back to him with a little message saying, We don't think this is right for live. So he gave it to Tina Turner. And because I got it first, I wanted to record it. And when the time came, I did an album called Wanted.

In other words, the songs I wanted to do and I I did a version of What's Love Got to do with it. You must understand, though, that touch of your face was very. It's solely the thrill of boy beating the good luck. You must try to ignore that and what's love got to do with it this time by Cliff Richard, the one that got away that cliff.

Yes. So, Cliff, your dad was musical.

He played banjo in a jazz band, and he bought you a guitar for your 16th birthday, didn't he? What did he teach you?

The first song he taught me, I think it's called a prisoner. So if I had the wings of and fumble fumble for a manger all over these prison walls one.

It was really I could remember now not getting my fingers in the right positions all the time, but that's the guitar that kicked it off for me.

And mostly I used to stand in front of the mirror miming to an Elvis record with a guitar hanging around my neck. And it made me feel the way I thought rock and roll should look and feel.

It was in those days, though, such a distant dream, you know, there was the matter of everyday life to attend to and your dad was encouraging your musical ambitions. But he also wanted you to kind of get a steady job. He was working for a company called Atlas Lamps, and you joined him there as a credit control clerk, not a promising environment for a budding rock star. So I'm guessing that your heart wasn't really in it.

No, it wasn't really. And I was still performing with my friends, you know, bars and pubs and things. Two guitars and a drummer. We had no bass, no keyboards, nothing. But we still sang the songs that were coming from America. We were doing Ricky Nelson and Elvis Presley and the audiences that we play to. It's difficult to call them an audience, but, you know, the people that were drinking in the pub, leaning on the ball and they seem to like what we were doing.

You decided you needed a new name as a lead singer. How did you relate on Cliff Richard?

We went to play at the two ice coffee bar, which was a famous cafe. And it's where Tommy Steele was discovered, as was Terry Dean. And so we had gone there thinking, oh, we can we're better than them. You know, the arrogance of youth and which nobody spotted us at all except two people, somebody who became my fan club president and a guy that came from ripply in Derbyshire. And his name is Harry Greatorex.

And he said, I'd like you to come and play in my ballroom. What's your name? I said, Harry said, OK, Harry Webb, Harry Webb and The Drifters.

I went, No, no, no, no, no. That doesn't sound like rock and roll to me. We're just the Drifters. And he said, No, no, I need the name, otherwise I'm not going to have you up there. So we went into a little pub around the corner from the two eyes and sat down. And the last combination of names was Cliff Raashid.

And I said, Cliff sounds good. That's rock, face, rock and roll. Somebody else suggested Richards, Cliff Richards with an S on the end. And the guy who had just joined us at the tours was a guy called Ian Samwell. He said, take the S off the Richard and you you're left with two Christian names and they're bound to get it wrong in interviews. They're bound to call you Richards and you can correct them. And that means you've spouted your name out twice in the same interview.

So I went into that pub, Harry Webb, and I came out.

Cliff Richard, it's time for some more music. Cliff. And this one is the only track from your 1960 list that you're going to take to the island a second time. Tell us about this.

Two friends of mine, drummer Terry, a guitarist, Norman and I, we packed around in pubs locally, but we were just chilling out on the street in Waltham Cross. And this car came up, windows were down. The driver jumped out and went into a newsagents. And we're looking at the car thinking, what a great car. We do think we'll have one of those one day. And then on the radio, we heard Elvis. Well, since my baby left me, it just blew us away.

And then, of course, the guy came back, drove off. So we didn't hear who was singing. We didn't know what he was singing. And we talked about it.

We thought it it felt like something from outer space. If we'd never heard anything other than Max Seagraves and Frank Sinatra and people like that singing on the radio. So that's what kicked me off. And that's what I was. I'm convinced now that that's the reason why I followed my dreams.

Well, since my baby, to find a new place to dwell on, is down on the street at Heartbreak Hotel.

I mean, this whole thing was lonesome, lonely, lonely. I could die. Oh, it's always crowded.

You still can find some room for broken heart and still be Mr Elvis Presley and Heartbreak Hotel so celebrated by 1958, you and The Drifters had got yourselves a manager, got a record contract and mastered the Elvis lip curl and hip swivel. Your first hit move, it reached number two in the charts. How quickly and how complete? He did life change for you after that? Oh, well, it changed instantly and I can remember the first check we were still at Cheshunt Council House and this check came through for 60 pounds.

I mean, it seemed like a fortune to us. And I bought I bought my mom and dad a television set with it move.

It is credited with being one of the first, if not the first, truly British rock and roll songs. And that prompted John Lennon to say Before Cliff Richard in the Shadows as the Drifters became, there have been nothing worth listening to in British music. Quite an endorsement.

If God blessed some journalists who think they've been pretty cool, they're really more cruel than cool. They often say to me, What's it feel like? You're not really cool. And I say, John Lennon thought I was cool. So I'll go with John.

You know, even the Beatles were rivals for chart positions and for studio space as well. I know that Studio two in Abbey Road, which is very famous these days, was hotly contested territory between the two of you.

Tell me about that, because it was a hit there. Of course, we wanted to make the next one. Is not it kind of superstitious, really, but you think, no, I've got to go back there.

I want to be in that same corner. I want to have everything around me exactly as it was for move it. And so we made our records today. And don't forget, we were there five years before the Beatles. People think that the Beatles own studio, too. They don't. They were renting it. We owned it first, but it's still great. I've talked to Paul a couple of times about this, and he said to me, well, you were always my favorite boy.

Every time we ring for Studio two, you've got it. And I said, Paul, please, every time Bruce Welsh, guitarist in my band, every time Bruce rang, they told us, no, the Beatles have got it.

Bruce Welch had a party then and invited you and the Beatles who just had a hit with Please, Please Me. What happened?

Typically, where do we end up? In the kitchen. And we were talking, saying, well, what are you going to follow? Please, please me with that number one.

They said, well, we're not sure this is going to make it. Bruce got his guitar out. I think he gave it to Paul. Or maybe it was George. And they said, well, sing it for us. And that's what they sang, was turn around and around. And of course, it was for me to you. And I remember saying to them, well, I don't know what you think to me. This is going to be your next number one.

And it was it's time to hear some more music. This is your fourth disc today. Tell us about it.

Everybody, including me, was in love with Olivia Newton John. She made this record, if not for you, written by Bob Dylan. And it started to chart and I was doing a BBC TV series, so I asked her to come on, you come and sing your record on and present it to the public. Everybody loved it. The camera loved the cameramen, loved her. I loved the audience, loved her. She stayed with me there for eight weeks.

I could not get rid of that woman, nor would I try. And she made a record call. I honestly love you.

And as soon as I heard that song, I thought that if I'm going to be on a desert island, I would want to feel still loved, even if I couldn't see the people that I was hoping would still love me. Little more than I should. We both know I got somewhere. But I've got something to tell you that I never thought would. I believe you. I honestly love you, bye, Olivia Newton, John Seacliff Richards. Not long after your career started to take off your dad, Roger sadly died.

He was only 56 and during his illness, you'd become very close. You were just out of your teens. His death must have knocked you sideways. It was a heartbreaking time for me.

My dad missed missed the best. He was so fast and hard behind me all the way through that I feel sometimes horribly angry that he died too early. He missed the first number one. He missed the knighthood. My father would have loved to have seen me benighted. I miss my dad.

Still, after your dad's death, you began to develop an interest in Christianity and started attending Bible classes. And then there was a big moment that came in 1966. You were invited to speak at a rally held by the evangelist Billy Graham. Tell me about that decision to get up on stage in front of 25000 people and talk about your faith.

It was a difficult choice to make, but I had a lot of good friends who were who were much more mature in their faith. And I'd say to them, look, you know what I mean? Well, I damaged my career. And they said, oh, well, you might do. But you say this is what made it important for me in the end, even though they said, well, it might do.

It could do. And if management said, you know, you have to be careful about that, in the end, I felt that it was more important even than my career. But it was terrifying moment for me. I mean, I was so scared, but it did lead to me beginning to be able to speak the name Jesus without feeling embarrassed. I don't know why people are embarrassed by that, but they sometimes are. But I don't feel that embarrassment anymore.

And I think the more you can speak to yourself about it and speak to others about what you believe, it makes it easier to believe. The strange thing is, I did actually plan to leave my career and become a teacher.

I actually went to a teachers training college and spoke with the headmaster there.

Yes. I think you announced your retirement as well at a press conference, didn't you?

I said that I had two years of commitments which I would fulfil, and then I was going to duck out. But the interesting things he learned, this is what I find amazing. It can't be an accident. Suddenly, Nouri Parramore, my producer from EMI, says, OK, you say you believe these things, let's do a gospel album. And I thought, oh, OK, I'll do a gospel hour, then I'll retire. Then I got a call from time to television saying we're doing six shows based on the parables of Jesus.

Would you star in it for us? I thought, Oh, OK, then I'll do the album and I'll do the TV and then I'll retire.

Then I get a call from the previously mentioned Billy Graham, who says, Would you be in this next movie we're going to make?

And that's when I changed my mind. I thought, wait a minute, I can be a pop star and still be a Christian and the two don't have to be at loggerheads with each other.

It's time to take a moment for some music. Clef, this is desk number five. What are we going to hear and why is this one going with you to the island?

I used to go on gospel tours and I used to do charity, two tours, singing for charity. And I met up with a girl called Sheila Walsh. Sheila is now living in the States and it's really quite a big name in gospel television. I got a call from somebody who was producing a new album for her and he said, Sheila would like you to sing on this track. It as well. In my soul, it made me think, even though, as I'm saying it, faith can get us through some of the most disastrous periods of our life.

It is well, Cliff Richard and Sheila Walsh, Cliff, I quoted you at the beginning of the program saying that you'd avoided the excesses of the rock and roll lifestyle, the alcohol, the drugs, the soulless sex. Although you've had some important relationships in your life, you never got married. And you've said in the past that you were too committed to your career to do that. How damaging do you think getting married would have been?

Would have no effect now at all? I don't think it has any effect on people being married and singing now doesn't have anywhere near the effect it would have had when when I started in the 50s, it was just the way it was. People would say, no, the girls are all squealing at you. You've got to be just available for them. I mean, I was dating a girl called Gene, but we came out of the theater of Finsbury Park empire, I think it was.

And she sat on my lap in the front of the car and I'm waving at the fans. And I turned around and they were throwing the programs on the floor and stamping them in the gutter. And I'm thinking, oh, no, no, no, no, this is not this.

And because I was focused, when I look back now, it has to be that reason that that focus was not going to be changed. I was never going to give up this career that I fought heavily for and still still battle. And you think about it's still massive competition out there nowadays. You know, it doesn't matter. Gary Barlow's married and got children and no one minds. And that's how it should have been then. But it wasn't.

You also have to be tough, of course, to to survive something like press speculation about your private life, which you've always been subject to. And that's been very intense at times.

Yes, it has been intense. But, you know, I lived with it for so long now that it actually doesn't bother me. I don't care anymore what they think and say. Certainly my private life is absolutely nobody's business but mine.

And I tell them that it's time for your next desk, your sixth, who will be gone to hear Bonnie Raitt.

I remember being in New York and in the hotel that we stayed that I was told there was a record store and I went down there and it was midnight. I couldn't sleep. If you have jetlag, horrible. I said to this guy, I've got anything that I might like, like a bluesy guitars. And he said, I've got this.

He bought this album out and it was Bonnie Raitt. Bonnie Raitt is still one of my favorites. Sometimes people get to say and sing the things that you sometimes can almost imagine you feeling. Turn down the bed. Turn down these voices inside my head. Done with me. Tell me no lies. Just hold me close, don't patronize Bonnie Raitt and I can't make you love me.

So, Sir Cliff Richard, you've said of August the 14th, 2014 that it was the day your life changed forever. And that was following a raid on your home in Berkshire by the South Yorkshire Police. They were investigating historic sex abuse allegations. And the BBC filmed the raid from a helicopter and it was broadcast on television around the world. What do you remember about that day?

Oh, I can remember the phone ringing in the kitchen of my house in Portugal. And I was with a group of people visit when my friends were staying with me. And it was the guy that manages the apartment block. And he said the police are here and they have a warrant to search your apartment. So I said, well, you can't stop them going in because they have the right to smash the door down if they want to. I said let them go in.

They're not going to find anything. There was a TV in one of the rooms, so we looked at the TV and that's when I saw the the the raid.

I saw that helicopter outside the apartment block. It was a horrible, horrible time.

I can't I can't begin to tell you we had a terrible drive home. And when we got back, that place was surrounded by paparazzi. There were everywhere. There's three entrances to the house and they were all crowding around everything.

And I realised it was something something serious. On the second day after having come back, I was in the kitchen and I felt my knees, my legs gave way and I collapsed on the floor. I've never fainted or anything. And I didn't faint, but I couldn't stand up.

And I found myself absolutely weeping like a child. I was never suicidal, but I thought a couple of times I might die because I used to wake up with my pulses, you know, on your wrist, the head, the heart thumping like crazy. And I'm thinking, oh, I don't want to kill myself, but this could kill me. But I survived it all.

And that's the main thing for me. And I'm past it now. And I don't think I'll ever get over it, though. It's not something that you can wipe from your memory. So you weren't charged.

The case has dropped and in twenty seventeen you settled with South Yorkshire Police and you won your privacy case against the BBC the following year. What did those outcomes mean to you?

Every now and then somebody might get the chance to perhaps change something. And I'd like to think that when I won that court case against the BBC, it means that they would have to think really hard if ever they wanted to do something like that again.

Let's take a break for some more music. Your seventh disc, what are we going to hear and why are you taking this with you to the island?

I've chosen this particular song because I went through that period in my life where I thought I was absolutely lost.

But I, I kept telling myself, I will survive this, I will survive this. So I've loved the Bee Gees forever. I love them more now. And I definitely will play this song really loudly. The bags and staying alive, so Cliff Richard, it's almost time to cast you away now, your first outing to the island back in 1960 when you thought that you said you weren't sure how you'd cope. Obviously, you've spent quite a lot of time in Barbados since then.

Do you think you'd be better equipped to handle living on an island?

I'll miss not having friends around me. I'll miss not being able to cook proper meals or have proper meals cooked for me. And I'd miss tennis terribly, but I think I could cope pretty well. I mean, I'm fairly good at being when I did the lockdown, first five weeks locked up in Barbados and I dealt with that pretty well.

So I think I'll probably enjoy the first first month or two.

Now, of course, it's Christmas and you are as much a part of the season as reindeer jumpers and mince pies. Your mistletoe and wine was the biggest selling single of 1988. But I know that when the song first came to, it had quite a different meaning.

Well, I got a phone call from my then manager, Peter Ghormley, who died some years back now, and he said that I want you to come and listen to a song. I think this is a smash hit record. And it came from a show called The Little Match Girl, and it had lyrics like a smile and a joke, a hug and a smoke. It was a sort of a pub song, but it had this mistletoe and wine chorus.

And I said what? All I did was change a couple of lines to make it sound more Christmassy. And that's about all. But I thought I thought, yes, Peter Ghormley was right. I thought this was this was a possible top 10, hopefull top five dream on number one. But it went to number one and it was terrific. And it I think partly it was not only the lyrics, it was also the fact that it was in the waltz tempo.

There's something about Dirnt and people sweeter waltzes all the time.

Obviously, none of us know how this Christmas is going to be. It'll be very different. That's all we can say at this stage. How do you hope to spend yours?

I'll be back in Barbados. The first year I went to live in Barbados, I had a big tree, brought in a fake one.

Of course, I had to shower twice while I was decorating it. It was just so hot. It seemed so ridiculous to be Christmas. And you're feeling sweaty and hot. But otherwise it's Christmas is really about family and friends.

And we've got one more disc to share before we send you off to the island. What's it going to be?

I want you to let me take High Water Everywhere by Joe Bonamassa. He is a fantastic guitarist. He's an outrageously wild singer. And deep down inside of me, there's a little part of me that says, Oh, I wish I could do that. I wish I was able to do that kind of music so I can pretend it's me.

Where the part where. Well, as I pointed out. High water everywhere by Joe Bonamassa Sir Cliff Richard were about to cast you away now to help you cope with island life, we are, of course, going to send you away with three books, The Complete Works of Shakespeare, the Bible and a book of your choice. What would you like?

Mithering Heights by Emily Bronte. Because it would put me in mind of school and a teacher that I had their generous and she could have told us all to understand and enjoy reading. And because I did the show himself and thoroughly enjoyed it, because for those moments on stage, for the first time ever in my life, I was not Cliff Richard. I had become this horrific character.

It's yours. You could also take a luxury item to help you pass the time more enjoyably. What would you choose as a special treat?

I would choose, if it's possible, my Gibson acoustic guitar. Oh, that's a beautiful guitar. I bought it in 1959 and it's got a very, very gentle sound and I'd love to have that as a luxury.

Absolutely. It's yours. And finally, if you had to save just one of your eight discs from being washed away, which would you go for?

Oh, I think I'd go for the gospel one. I go for it as well. I would need to know that God was with me. You know, I would feel safe and I would feel well.

Sir Cliff Richard, thank you so much for sharing your Desert Island Discs with us. And however you spend it, we're wishing you a very merry Christmas.

Thank you so much. And I hope you have a lovely one, too. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Seacliff as it's his second trip to the island, he should know where the tastiest coconuts are and which palm trees have the most shade. Have Cliff talk about his arch rivals, the Beatles. Well, Sir Paul McCartney was Castaway by Sue Lawley in 1982, and he chose Heartbreak Hotel as one of his eight tracks, too. Interesting. You can hear support program and those of a host of other musicians and singers, including Thom Yorke, Bruce Springsteen, Melanie S.

Yusuf, Cat Stevens, Debbie Harry and Lily Allen via BBC Sands. Next time, my guest will be Colonel Lucy Giles. I do hope you'll join us. I know you just want to hear your show, but this won't take long.

I'm Miles, the producer of Radio Four's Triqui podcast, and it works like this for people from across the U.K. meet up and without a presenter breathing down their necks, talk about issues they really care about because work is quite complicated for a lot of people and it's OK to be against it, but not to shame someone because of their profession across the cities will hear anger, shock and even the odd laugh.

Another thing that really gets to me is when people say, I know what we need to do. I know what black people shut up, you don't like. That's the thing. That's not how it works. Nobody knows. If you knew, you would have done it. Discover more conversations like this. I start doing Trickey on BBC Sounds.