You're listening to Episode seven of the Nobody's on a Podcast brought to you by Artie's documentary on One in Ireland and 30A Productions in Denmark.

My name is Tim Henman. This is the first of two extra episodes that we've put together based on new information that's come to light after the original release of the series, you put yourself in my shoes and you will continue to measure and years go by and you do it a few.

Right. And you're not captured. So what do you think I can do then? If you can just bend direct to me, I to do what you're telling us and it's been playing on your mind for some time. You then decide to come clean and tell us all the truth. And that is right. That's right. And that's what I do, who you murdered, are you a spy? No, but just drink ready for the permanent. La la, la, la, la, la.

If you've been listening to the novelty song, you'll know that the whole series is based on a man called Karen Patrick Kelly.

He was convicted of two murders and he confessed to a lot more besides.

If you haven't heard the first six episodes, I suggest you stop listening. Go back and hear the full story so far. What follows might not make a lot of sense.

Just sit down at a quick counter in your own mind about the ones you think you have killed, about the ones you think you might have killed and how many you're sure you killed.

The big question that the whole series asked was whether or not Karen Patrick Kelly actually did murder 13 or 14 or even 15 people.

Many of the people he claimed to have murdered never got justice and were simply forgotten, but not all of them.

And one of them in particular, we couldn't forget because it was the one that Kelly said had started it all.

Christy Smith.

And we have found new information about Christy Smith as you come back, Christy.

Of course, that's where it all started. I would never mention you know, I'm just wondering if you really want to get Christy straight up your mind.

Only the first episode of the Nobody's On Podcast opened with a scene that was set on a summer's night in 1953 in London down on Baker Street Tube Station on the night of the Queen's coronation. Two men, Karen Kelly and Christy Smith, are having an argument and then Kelly pushes Smith under an oncoming tube train. That scene was recreated based on Kelly's own version of events, but the police could never find Kristy Smith. They couldn't find anyone who might have been Kristi Smith who'd been murdered or killed by accident on the London Underground on that night or any other night around the time of the queen's coronation.

In fact, they couldn't find anything that fitted Kristy Smith's description in that whole summer on Mr. Brown's going to ask, you know, about Christy Smith's go over that again.

So when Kelly made his confession, it was in 1983 and he was talking about having killed Smith 30 years previously. And now here we are in 20/20, which means it all happened nearly 70 years ago. The chief investigating officer who worked the Kelly case back in 1983 was Ian Brown. And he said this to us about Smith.

I think he killed Christy Smith because that's where all the confessions start. And if that's a lie, so is everything else. We have to jump back to Episode five of the series, which is where we left the Christie Smith story, we'd found a very likely candidate for Christie Smith, but we couldn't prove it, not 100 percent. Here's journalist Nikolaev Greer from the dock on one team where we had left. The Christie Smith story was we thought we had found a very likely candidate of a birth certificate that could belong to our Christie Smith because he had a brother called Paul.

Can you promise that when you Christie came from a large family, but we hadn't been able to track down any relatives?

Not until after the series went out and a listener picked up the trail, we were contacted by an amateur genealogist called Damien O'Sullivan, who helped us as well to look into some of the old records. We started going through electoral rolls and looking for the death notices of Christie's parents with amateur genealogist Damien O'Sullivan's help.

And by digging through and connecting a lot of old documents and records, Nikolaev was finally able to track down a living relative of Christie Smith. The trail led to a woman named Lily Smith. She'd been married to one of Christie's brothers, Patrick Smith, so we wrote to Lily and after a couple of weeks got a phone call from Lily's daughter, Christina, and she was able to confirm that, yes, she had an uncle called Christopher who had died aged 22 in London when he was hit by a train.

Finally, a connection that Christie Smith, we'd found was 22 years old and he died in London when he was hit by a train. That must be him. One thing that had thrown us off track the whole time was that in Kristi's family, the surname Smith is sometimes spelt with a Y and sometimes spelled with an eye. And the spelling varies depending on what kind of documents it's written down on. Lapin found out more while she was talking to Lily and the family, she found out that there was another living relative, Nick Smith, Christi's younger brother.

OK, so Lily's son, Patty, was able to put me in touch with Nick, who was Kristi's brother.

Nick Smith lived and worked in London for most of his life. He's retired now and living a quiet life in the west of Ireland.

Hello. Hi, Nick. Yeah, hi, Nick. It's Nicole and Greer here from RTG.

Sorry, this is a bit strange. And out of the blue party multiculturalists.

Sorry. Totally strange.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know how much party told you about us, but I'm saying something sometimes when he was on the tube.

So it wasn't the same day.

Well we don't know basically. So I'm just wondering what you know. And like I'm just wondering, were you in London at the same time that Kristy was?

I got a photograph at the two of us together, actually. Well, at that time. Because hanging on the wall, so up on the wall in Nick's living room is this black and white picture. It's got a bit of a penis, but it's in a frame. It looks like the 50s kind of style photograph, two guys with brown hair, good looking guys, two guys who are out for a day in London. Nick actually remembers the day the photo was taken because it was a day when they'd both gone out and gotten tattoos, Christie had gotten a tattoo with his girlfriend's name.

What was the tattoo?

Well, it just got the name of Kathleen on Kathleen. What happened to Kathleen?

That they're going out together? She was on the game. She was on the game.

But I remember that it was cold, but I cut the cord. She was she was a prostitute at that time because Christie told me that once or twice neck was only 17 when the picture was taken.

Christie, 21, just two young men looking to make their mark in the world before Christie's sad fate changed all that. And when did Christie die?

I went to London at 55. So it's got to be eight or 56 or 57 that he died?

Yeah, I'd say probably 56, having found the right man next.

Now telling us that he must have died in 1956.

Wow. That's that's really nice. But it's I wonder, was there a reporter?

There's really no doubt we've got the right. Christie here died at 22 in London, hit by a tube train, had a brother called Paul, a girlfriend called Kathleen, who was working as a prostitute.

But the date the date is wrong.

By three whole years, we'd been going along with what Kieran Kelly had said all along, that he killed Smith in 53. We've been looking at records from the wrong year and with the wrong spelling of his name.

So it's no wonder nothing much had showed up.

Oh, no, you definitely don't need lying under undertows. We could wasn't a body because it was so badly damaged.

And then there was one more reason why the search for records of Christie Smith's death on the tube had drawn a blank. The place where it happened because I have the demo in where Kaner Pinner North London, and we had been searching for death certificates prior to this. We had Baker Street and, you know, South London train stations were the places that we were looking.

Nick remembers that Christie had died while he was at work. He'd gotten a job just a couple of weeks previously, working on the railway, fixing train tracks at night, and so did it.

So it did happen when he was working. Did is that it happened? Yeah, it was on the trains. OK, down the tracks at night, right, OK. On the night that Kristy died, Nick actually walked to work with them and as he was leaving, Kristy said to Nick, I'll see you tomorrow. There's something I want to talk to you about. And of course, you never heard what that something was, as Nic said, that died with them, as far as I know, is buried in a graveyard at our Brompton Road in England.

Really? Yeah. Everything Nicole told us made it possible to find the death certificate.

Christie's surname on the death certificate is Smith with why not Smith with an eye on the death certificate, says that Christopher Smith, male, 22 years old, was a railway lensman and that death occurred 100 yards from the Kouakou Hill Bridge in Pinna, which is on the outskirts of London. The date of death was February the 10th, 1956, the cause of death was shock and hemorrhage due to multiple injuries sustained when he was knocked down by an electric train.

There was an inquest held on February the 14th, 1956, where the death was ruled accidental and accidental death. The inquest ruled that the death was accidental. But we can't see from the death certificate why that was. It doesn't say. It just says he was hit by a train. So we needed to try and find records of the court inquest itself. The problem is over 90 percent of those type of records have been destroyed in the UK to safe storage space.

And we didn't yet know which archive it might be kept in if it was still there. There's different archives in different districts in and around London. While we started the search, Nicolay and finally got to go and talk to Lily Smith, Kristy Smith's sister in law, and her family over in Bally Firmat in South Dublin. Can I just ask you to say your name? Oh, yeah, Misplacement, yeah.

And could you tell me then who your for your your husband was and his family as Christy and my husband was two brothers, so I met with Lily and her daughter Christina and son Paddy, and we had a chat to try to piece together what we could of what Lily could remember.

What did he look like? Was he tall? Was he you know what? Could I cut her hair?

You have just brown hair. Oh, spotless. Clean. You just hate that kind of manner. Lily remembered Christie very well.

Lily also remembered Kathleen very well.

He introduced me to Kathleen as his girlfriend, so I accepted her as his girlfriend. Matey, you know, our little cake or something, you know? And I was watching the children after she put up a sleeve and she'd say, Nellie, I give you a hand. You wonder, you know, what a child I know. She was a lovely girl.

She remembered how kind she was that she helped Lily with the children. Lily had 14 children. I think it was so the fact that Kathleen helped Lily with bathing the children was something that stuck in Lily's mind.

She remembered a lot of her memory of Christie was what a kind man he was and how he would bring clothes for the children and sweets for the children.

When they came home to visit, Lily confirmed that Christie had gone to London originally at the time of the Queen's coronation. That's the same time Kelly has said that going over she remembers it clearly because she gave birth to a daughter just around that time and even recalls Christie saying goodbye.

Don't really be right. And she, you know, I said right, but I never seen any anymore. Never seen her anymore. That's the last time. Yes. Yes. They they wrote me just not often now and again. You know, Christie was very good to me.

She remembers, too, that he was actually back and forth to London a few times after he left. And of course, she remembers hearing the tragic news of his death.

And then Mr Smith then will just say that we can't I couldn't believe what she told us, she said, and really we have to go to London.

No one in the Smith family has ever had reason to doubt the official explanation of what happened to Christie. Not until now.

We didn't like ask any questions.

What they had been told was this, that a couple of weeks into a new job working, fixing railway tracks at night, Christie's foreman had seen an approaching steam train and given the signal to down tools and move aside, maybe because he was new to the job or just very unlucky, Christie stepped onto another track instead of treading off to the side, and he was hit by a second train coming in the other direction. He was killed instantly. The death certificate tell me the exact way my dad told me, I remember my dad that was killed in between two trains.

That's his daughter, Christine.

You can hear on the tape there.

I always remember I only be talking about them, but I never, ever remember them and saying it was an accident, that there was any reason to believe there was any. You know what I mean? Wait, I wasn't but an accident, you know, so I don't know.

It turns out that Christy Smith's parents had more than their fair share of tragedy over the years. They lost a daughter to leukemia. At 14, another of Christie's brothers died in a plane crash in the Mediterranean. Yet another was killed while escaping from prison in Port Leisz. There had also been twin sisters, one of whom had died as a baby and the other who'd married but then moved to Kenya and disappeared, where the family also presumed she died. With the help of amateur genealogist Damien O'Sullivan and with Nick and Lily Smith's memories, Nicolina had been able to paint a very detailed picture of the times that Kelly and Smith had grown up in.

Hard times living in Dublin in the tenements. But we still couldn't find anything concrete that connected Kieran Kelly to Christy Smith. All we knew was that they'd grown up not so far apart in Dublin. So could he have been there the night that Christy died? Could he have been one of the team of railway workers?

I don't you don't know the name? No, no, no. Yeah. No name is never mentioned. Sorry. It's not a name we've ever had mentioned.

Never met, you know, and he never brought any further Jim to my door. He never broke. No, no, never.

And none of the family members remember hearing anything from anyone about Kieran Kelly. Yeah.

Because Nick said he never heard of Kelly either, you know, so that's a strange thing. Yeah.

It's not a name we've been talking about and it's not a name that popped up anywhere.

The question we're still trying to solve here, of course, is whether or not Kieran Kelly's confession about killing Christie is actually true or not.

If your mind, Kelly was there. Yeah, he had to be a friend of Christopher's. But you don't mean no one remembers him. I swear this is what I'm saying.

I swear something about all this still doesn't quite add up.

That's where I'm kind of trying to put the puzzle together. It just doesn't make sense, does it? Back in Episode five of the podcast series, we found criminal records for Kelly in Dublin. They included prison time he spent in Dublin late in 1953. He went to jail after he stole a violin and was chased around town by the police. Previously, we'd guessed that a newspaper report from 1953, which quoted Kelly's father saying he was acting strangely of late, might have been because he was feeling the pressure of having just killed Christy Smith, his best friend.

But we know now that that can't be true because Christie was alive and well and living in London with Kathleen and between 1953 and 1956. We know that Christie was back and forth between Dublin and London several times. Kelly had another conviction in Dublin in October 1956, so Kelly could have been in London in February 1956. We know he wasn't in prison then and he could have conceivably met with Christie either in Dublin or in London. It's now nearly 70 years since Christie passed away, and it's first now that we've dropped this unsettling news on the Smith family that Kelly, someone they've never heard of, claimed to have murdered him all those years ago.

It would be really interesting to know was any did anybody see it and was actually working there?

We don't know if he was working there with the mean kind of make a bit more. Wouldn't it be a little bit more sense that you'd say, well, he was in the vicinity and maybe it was like, you don't know. You know, just.

But the thing is. Yeah, why why was he like, he could have just made it up. He could have been messing with the police man's head. He could have just been making it up. But it's a weird thing to pick to say this is where the.

The inquest file still hadn't shown up at this point. So in the meantime, you might remember journalist Robert Mulhearn, the journalist who's been diving into this story since 2015. Rob was the one who required the audiotape of the Kelly interview from the British Transport Police. And the British Transport Police have been responsible for the inquiry into the Kelly case that was opened back when the story first hit the headlines. Rob offered to bring the file and the new information we'd collected on Smith and Kelly over to the British Transport Police.

And you have to remember, like the backdrop and the context to all of this is like different police forces in different areas in London who could never prove like Christie Smith existed. They couldn't find them. You know, even the investigation that went on when Geoff Plath's book came out, you know, after working on the investigation for five years, the idea that we could find Smith, that we could prove that Smith was real, a real person. And, you know, it felt really exciting.

He fixed up a meeting with the man in charge of the inquiry, Detective Superintendent Garry Richardson, who has been very helpful to us the whole time in making this podcast, but had until now been reluctant to go on the record and talk about the case.

Five years up to this, all the dealings with Gary Richardson and the British Transport Police were like off the record.

So all of a sudden now, you know, I go in there to the offices. I have this file of information. He doesn't know what to expect. The only reason I'm going with this file is because he gave me the tapes in good faith and probably never really expected that anything was going to come back here, that the tapes outside the offices of the British Transport Police in Camden, London, which let's go in and see what happens. To his surprise, Roberts fairly informal meeting with Richardson suddenly seemed to have been bumped up to something more official, more important, Richardson's superior officer was there and media handlers were also present.

The police seemed maybe a little nervous or cautious about what Rob was bringing in to them.

So even at that point, they were kind of cagey about, you know, how to deal with the case because all of a sudden, you know, this information, you know, it was going to recalibrate the case for them as well as us.

Rob talked and the assembled police team listened for around half an hour. He told them everything that we'd found out.

So basically, yeah, just to just to reiterate, the police gratefully took a copy of Roberts Notes and probably breathed a big sigh of relief that the case was unlikely to explode all over the newspapers again, as it had done in 2015, I guess.

Well, firstly, thanks for this stuff.

This is, you know, you and they agreed to help us track down the elusive inquest papers. A few weeks go by and, yes, we get the news that the report does still exist and it will be made available to us for three or four weeks later and back up and Richardson's office again.

And this time he has the inquest for Smith's death on the railway tracks in London in the 1950s. And I'm going into the office and I'm fully sure that in this inquest report on Gary Richardson's desk is going to be, you know, information from witnesses or whatever it may be. And that proves Kelly killed Smith. The key to the whole thing.

We're sat at your desk in the offices of the British police in Camden.

You file the paperwork and frontier, you know, what is that paperwork? If we could begin begin at the beginning of the inquest.

The file itself contains about 35 pages of documents and dockets, everything from handwritten witness statements, various depositions by professional witnesses, some typewritten forms, some hard to read, carbon copy paper.

The file contains everything there is that's related to the incident from maps of where it happened to the post-mortem report. The front page indicates that the inquest itself took place in Middlesex, which is just outside London, as the accident had happened in Pinna. Yet another reason the documents had been so hard to track down changing boundaries and jurisdictions over the years. But anyway, at last, here it is.

Rob asked Detective Superintendent Richardson to read the report for us.

The inquest was held for this since the 14th of February in 1956, Kathleen Smith. I think you had the details of Kathleen gave evidence saying that she'd lived in Mornington Terrace in Camden, which confirms the address that you had from and that she'd actually identified some things from her husband, Kristy, and identified his body.

The body was in such a bad state that the only thing she could recognise were his socks and boots. In the inquest, a statements from three witnesses who actually saw it happen also then we had a few individuals that provided evidence to the court and the way the system was then it would be recorded by the coroner as a summary of the evidence in relation to the inquest. So there was a Mr Thomas who gave evidence of providing maps in relation to the local area and the tracks.

Then there was an individual who gave evidence who was a sub ganger, who was working for London transport at the time, and he gave evidence on the 10th of February, he was in charge of two lensman, one of them being obviously Christy Smith. So he gives evidence of the incident, as does another man who who's from Sutherland Avenue and made a veil. He was a gentleman. So he was employed, employed with Christy Smith at the area and they were putting new insulated pots out on the tracks.

So as they get cracked, so they go along and replace them. I mean, bear in mind, it's 1956. They talk about seeing a steam train. Steam trains were still running at that point in time in the UK as opposed to just on heritage lines. They didn't have the same health and safety systems as perhaps we would expect to see today. So they were shouted the two gentlemen, to move out of the way. And we know that one stood one side of the track whilst Christy Smith appeared, went and stood on the forefoot of the other track of the forefoot being the bit between the two running rails.

As he stepped over out of the way of the steam train, pretty much immediately an electric train came through and struck him and he was killed and obviously badly disrupted body as a result of that. All three of them say that Christie had stepped the wrong way and was killed by the oncoming train. There was an inquest as a jury inquest and the conclusion of that says the verdict of the jury was accidental death, and that was reported or recorded by Mr.

Cogswell, who was the coroner for Eastern District at the time.

So was nothing in this paper that suggests any involvement of Karen caveating pathetic note, no suggestion that he was present or indeed anybody else was present or an unknown person was present?

Three eyewitnesses and nowhere is that even a mention of Karen Patrick Kelly.

And there is a point here that's in one of the statements saying that they didn't hear the electric train. You would clearly hear the steam train because, you know, they generated a huge amount of noise and also the train driver. There is evidence from the train driver, the electric train, saying a man bending down, doing some work in front of them in effect.

And the train came through and clearly struck him at 10 57 am on an overground section of the track near Penn Station on London's metropolitan line.

The only detail that Nick Smith had been wrong about was that the accident didn't happen at night, as he'd remembered, but actually happened around 11 a.m. in the morning. But 70 years after the event, that's understandable. In the statement from Kathleen, that's in the folder.

It turns out that she'd actually been married to Christie two years previously. Something else the family hadn't known about.

But she says quite clearly that the last time she saw Christie was at six a.m. in the morning as he left the house and went to work. We know that Kieran Kelly spoke about Christie Smith. And I think from the work that you've done and it's corroborated by this, that this is the Christie Smith that everyone was talking about that was associated with Kieran Kelly. He did die on the tracks. The difference being he didn't die two years earlier in 1953, during the coronation of three years earlier, he died when this incident occurred and it was witnessed.

And that's the most significant part about this, that there were witnesses that saw him being struck, which in many respects eliminates the possibility that Kieran Kelly was involved in his death. As Detective Superintendent Richardson says, all this eliminates the possibility that Kieran Kelly was involved in Christy Smith's death. So that means we have to rule out Kelly's first confession, the one that started it all, he didn't do it. You come back this way because that's where it all started.

That was I wish I was never I really never meant, you know, I just. You really want to get this out of your mind, don't you?

The only problem then is that that still doesn't explain why Kelly insisted that he killed Smith. Why pick on such an old case and insist on it, especially when he had so many more recent things that he could easily have talked about?

I think the general view we've been able to speak to the detective inspector who was in charge of the interviews at the time that perhaps Kieran Kelly was, whilst admitting his involvement in some instance, was gilding the lily lily, shall we say, in relation to others, that the purpose of that is not clear whether that was or wasn't the case or whether he was just confused as to what he'd been involved in. But nevertheless, I think Kieran Kelly painted a far worse picture than was the reality.

Having said that, he was responsible for 72 murders.

So that in itself is pretty terrible, pretty terrible as a good description of Kelly's criminal record. Aside from the 15 murders he confessed to, Kelly spent many years in and out of prison, including two years in what was once known as the Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum. Over the years, he had convictions for things including assaulting police officers, armed robbery, aggravated burglary, grievous bodily harm. And of course, there were the other charges which he was acquitted of, including murder.

If you remember, he went all the way to trial at the Old Bailey for the murder of a toll in a churchyard at Kennington. He was also acquitted on attempted murder charges where he was seen pushing someone in front of a train.

To be fair, he was found not guilty and acquitted in a court of law, but still it's hard to know the exact truth of what Kelley did or did not do. You know, Mr. Kelly was involved in many, many criminal activities over many, many years, you know, from a young boy in Ireland 20s, came over to the U.K., was involved in crime pretty much straight away and continued to be involved in crime up until the point of the murder in the Clapham.

And, of course, he was arrested for a robbery that put him into the selling in Clapham as opposed to, you know, being arrested for a murder. So the murder took place once he'd been arrested for another crimes. It was.

As I see it from here, there are two possibilities. One is that he was just lying about it, whether it was to throw the police off course and confuse them or maybe just to boost his own reputation and brag about things.

He was going to prison for life and he wanted some notoriety.

You might recall John Slater, who was Kelly's solicitor at the time, he thought that Kelly wanted to be remembered as a mass murderer.

You have to bear in mind that it was during the era when there have been more than one multiple murders. I mean, Peter Sutcliffe's, of course, was the most famous, but was also Dennis Nielsen and about the same time. And I did wonder whether he wanted to get infamy as a result of being a mass murderer.

And then there's another, albeit very stretched possibility. I'm suggesting that Kelly really did think he'd killed Christy Smith.

You put yourself in my shoes and opportunities and years go by and you do a lot of you. Right. And, you know, capture it somewhat easier. But you do then.

This is wild speculation, of course. And to be fair, not to be taken too seriously, we should be careful about falling into the trap of making wild assumptions and then thinking that they add up to facts. That's something the Kelly story has had more than enough already. But that said, what if? Christy Smith was working on the metropolitan line, which runs through Baker Street. That could be what Kelly had had in mind when he said Baker Street Tube.

And then what if Kelly had fought with Smith or even pushed him onto the line somewhere else around this time, and then he'd run off without waiting to find out what had happened? He did that many times later in his life. Then days, weeks or even years go by. And Kelly hears through the grapevine that Christy Smith died when he was hit by a train. In Kelly's muddled mind, he made the connection. It's always a problem looking for answers in the dark world of Kieran Kelly and the nobody's up, it's tempting to grasp at straws.

And when the media ran with this story back in 2015, a number of people desperate for possible explanations for unexplained accidents and suicides that happened on the London Underground did get in touch with the inquiry to find out if Kelly may have had a hand in these. Here's Gary Richardson again. You know, there are some families back from the 70s or perhaps 80s that saw the the stories in the press and the media coverage and then referred back to where their loved one died in tragic circumstances on the railway, which had been dealt with back in the 70s or 80s.

And then we were thinking perhaps my loved one was murdered by Kieran Kelly. And since this podcast went out, more people have been in touch with us. People who lost loved ones or who knew Kelly's victims or who knew Kieran Kelly in person, and as we're going to find out in the next and final episode, there are still more questions to ask and there are still more answers to find. In the nobody saw. And he always maintained that Rosie, he had shoved him under the tree.

That's why we she would never jump to the governor.

He was shaking his head because he knew Kelly and he said, what if he had done? Who did and murder? Are you a spy? No, but just drink ready for the permanent time. You can't live without enough food to live alone. From the west, the no money, so. Oh. The Nobody's Zone is written and narrated by Tim Henman storyline and production is by Tim Henman and Christopher Maltzahn. Original idea research and recordings are by Robert Mulheron, Nicole Greer and Liam O'Brien with production assistance from Sarah Blake, Donal O'Herlihy, Tim Desmond, Ronan Kelly and Michael Lawlis.

Special thanks to genealogist Damien O'Sullivan and Leo McGee and Pierce Street Library Dublin. The title music is the song Missing You, performed by Christy Moore. Original music for the series is by Tim Henman, Graphics, Marketing and Press by John Kilkenny, Laura Beattie, Amy O'Driscoll, Nigel Wheatley, Frederick Nilbog, Julie Madonna, Ellen Léonard, Brian Murphy and Anna Jois. Illustrations by Alex Williamson.

The Nobodies Own is a collaboration between Arties documentary on one in Ireland and Third-tier Productions in Denmark. If you wish to join the social media conversation around this podcast, please use hashtag the Nobody Zone or visit to EdTech forward slash the nobody own. And if you'd like to comment or share any information you might have on the story, we'd love to hear from you. Email us documentaries at Art EdTech. Thanks for listening.