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That's a good place to leave things. Also, the mouse that has been running around my apartment this evening just darted across the room again. And so I need to go try to take care of that.


Hello and welcome to this late night reaction edition of the 538 Politics Podcast. I'm Gail Andrew. The fourth and final night of the Democratic National Convention just wrapped up, and it was capped off by a pretty forceful and gasless speech by the now Democratic nominee, Joe Biden. He's gotten pretty good reviews so far, but we'll discuss what he had to say and what kind of argument he's presenting to the country from here until the election. Also tonight, we heard from some also rans of 20 20 like Cory Booker, but Judge Michael Bloomberg.


But the night, of course, was largely about Biden. So let's discuss it. And here with me to do that, our editor in chief, Nate Silver. Hey, Nate, how's it going?


Hello, Gaylen and team. We've made it halfway through these late night editions of the 538 politics podcast, barely hanging on at this point, but we got to rest this week.


Had only only halfway.


I mean I mean, Happy said they lost all sense of communication from these weird black box room.


Yeah. Nate, where are you? I'm at my house. It's the same nice room that you see on ABC every week. Yeah. If you are watching this on YouTube, you can see that Nate is like hidden in a dark closet.


Yeah, but it's like the nighttime room where, like, this house was not designed for nighttime podcasting.


Also here with us is senior politics writer Claire Malone.


Claire Hegland, I'm coming to you from a well lit normal human house. I know it looks lovely. You've got a tree behind. You got a sorry print on NATO's. From what I've seen of it is actually lovely. But it's mid century metro, which I which I've been, which I love. But but I've also been forced to love by like design catalogues. But like yours is actually like. Yes, beautiful. You just you just people should just check out our YouTube stream for Nate and headphones in a darkened room.


There's your strong plug for the evening.


Go subscribe to five thirty on YouTube. And also here with us is managing editor Michael Cohen. Hey, Michael. Hey. Hi, everybody. It's such a treat to have your two nights in a row. I know it is a joy.


I missed everybody. And this night I have Claire and Nate, the old gang, back together, and it warms my heart.


So let's get into it. I'm just going to ask you initial reactions to Joe Biden's speech.


I think that the speech has to be taken as a part of the entire night. We talked a little bit, I think, in the live blog about, you know, Biden has has low expectations when it comes to public speaking for like a number of reasons.


And I think some of those reasons were kind of, you know, softened in some ways. So you kind of this whole night was about softening the image of Joe Biden. Right.


So to the very particular point of speaking ability, there is a a young boy with a stutter who talked about how, you know, Joe Biden had helped him with his stutter because Joe Biden had a stutter earlier in his life that he overcame. And there was a lot about Joe Biden's personal tragedy and Joe Biden's decision to run for president as based in empathy and tragedy. And it was a series of showcases that led to this Biden speech where he talks about covid and the tragedy that the nation is going through.


So so all of that stuff is the Biden speech was kind of speech was kind of this capstone on the evening. I think it was like a perfectly appropriate speech, if not good for the moment, for the kind of candidacy that Joe Biden is running. There's also something, you know, I don't quite know how to put this. You know, Joe Biden's been running for president since nineteen eighty eight.


He is, I'm sure, inspired to, you know, be a better person and to be a good president, in part because of, you know, his son who died. But there is something about, particularly this evening, where where it was a very public display of grief. And I will admit, like my personal reaction to that is a little bit I do find some discomfort of like sort of publicly analyzing someone's grief. And I just want to be open about that.


Like, there is something about that that makes me a little bit like tentative in a political setting, because it is at once an earnest thing. It was a compelling evening. But also there's something in me that always lurks where it's like, well, it's also. It's also politics here, right, and it's a it's a ploy to watch, which I know sounds callous, but is true.


Yeah. Look, I think out of any political events that we cover, in some ways, the nominee's speech is one of the hardest things for us to, like, really say anything more like it's not like our opinion matters any more than the average American citizen. But I thought it was quite effective. I think the first half of the program was kind of the hour that's not on national TV was kind of a mess, to be honest. But the second hour kind of was quite focused, stuck to the script a lot in terms of family, a little bit of outreach to Republicans, right.


Not a lot of policy and size and kind of decency. Right. It was kind of understated in some ways, understated and kind of solemn, although some moments like this, Stephan Curry and his kids. Right. And his family. But yeah, look, I think, number one, Biden did a good job of crafting a speech for the fact that he was speaking to camera and he didn't have a live audience. And it made it more intimate in some ways.


Right. Like I remember an underrated speech in convention history was the 2012 Biden speech where I was in the room for that speech. Where was it? Charlotte, I guess. Right. Maybe mixing it up and, you know, Osama is dead and GM is alive. Right. So Biden can deliver a good speech when he needs to. But this is more of an FDR style cliche, a little bit sorry, fireside chat. And it made good use of the format.


And also Biden benefit from this thing where, like, you know, Team Trump, among others, kind of always wants to make it seem as though Biden is this kind of lightweight who is senile. But generally speaking, Biden has performed in the most important moments. Right. He performed well in the VP debate against Paul Ryan. He performed well in the couple of key debates around South Carolina on Super Tuesday, even though, frankly, he kind of stunk in a lot of the earlier debates that are a little bit lower stakes.


So and he was good tonight. And so the men like Joe Biden, this is hackneyed, but like he's an underrated politician, right? He's got some skills. He's not flashy, but like he really does a lot of the bread and butter stuff pretty well. And he kind of lulls you into a false sense of security if you're one of his opponents.


Yeah, I do think, you know, to what Nate said at the start, that it doesn't really so much matter what we think.


What I do think is important is the early consensus seems to be basically where where they and clear where that that Biden hit his marks tonight at a minimum and probably over perform them according to most.


Again, he benefits. They're from from low expectations. And so if the narrative coming out of tonight is OK, Biden gave a good speech that maybe doesn't change the campaign per say.


But it's a lot better for the Biden campaign than some counterfactuals where he stumbles through it, where he commits some really obvious gaffe or something else. So to me, that's one of the main takeaways is like, yeah, I was actually thinking Sarah Ferguson said our politics editor, I always laugh a little bit because she archives the live blog channel and Slack like the second the event is over.


And I always think, like, yes, she's trying to get get past that live blog as quickly as possible.


And I wonder a little bit if if the Democrats feel the same way about the convention, that it's like, OK, this is over. We did a fine job. Let's get it out of the way.


The other main take away, I would just throw out there and Claire, you were talking about this on the live blog, is just the extent to which the Biden campaign clearly has a theory of the case.


That is, we're going to try to win the quote unquote middle. We're going after centrists. We're going after moderates. We're going after former Republicans.


It was one of the most prominent themes of the convention week. That striking, you know, maybe it's right. I don't know. But but but it was striking how clear that theory was in the day to day events.


I mean, one thing I've been surprised by is the lack of griping from cynical left of center Democrats right now that maybe because we're in a pandemic that's killed, what is it, 170000 people or whatever.


But given how every little thing is a big tempest in a teapot during the campaign, the kind of lack of. Cynical, snarky takes, right? Obviously, I spent too much time on Twitter, so who really cares, right? But it really does feel like the Democratic Party is coming out as unified as a party. And by the way, the sincerity, at least apparent sincerity with which people like, you know, Bernie Sanders in particular are endorsing Obama or endorsing Biden scuse me, is suitable to see.


That's what that's what the campaign, the brainwashed they want me to mix up. Finally, some of what I was, I think sort of you know, obviously we just finished liveblog. I just finished doing the speech. And what I was first saying off the bat, I think I've been thinking through is some of what the Joe Biden is a tragic figure who has overcome Joe Biden has extreme empathy this whole evening. Right. Telling you about his struggles.


It's Biden is being cloaked in in he's a good guy. Energy, right. He's being the armor is being put on him because, of course, Trump is going to come after him with everything he's got. Right. Joe Biden gets jobs for his kids. Joe Biden is this. Joe Biden is that. And so there's almost maybe some of the things that I was perhaps expressing some discomfort with about like this super public thing about like where the grief is forward and the family's tragedies forward and it's reliving all these terrible things.


It's in part because the campaign and they want you to know Joe Biden is a good guy. And Nate, to your point, that there isn't as much left Twitter snarky about Joe Biden, it's in part because there is this Joe Biden is a good guy venire right enough. And you're right. I think, you know, that's that's a bad word choice. But there's there's this sense on the left where it's like, OK, we know that that Trump is coming for him in in a very personal attack way, because that's the kind of politics that Trump plays.


So they're putting on the armor of the personal onto Biden. And that's what happened tonight.


To your point about about the grief part of that armor.


Claire, I do wonder a little bit because you could put he's a good guy, armor on someone and a lot of ways. Right. And they did put it on Biden in a lot of different ways. But a big component of it was he knows what what personal grief is and he's empathetic.


First of all, that can be both real and genuine and a political right, which is what I am saying to be clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.


But the fact that that does play such a big part in the way Democrats did this, I do wonder if that. Inoculates Biden to some extent from those barbs on the left, or at least give those to to use Nate's example, you know, the the snarky people, liberal people on Twitter, a pause before sending that snarky tweet, because who wants to be the asshole taking a shot at someone when the conversation going on, going on is about really, really like heart tugging, personal tragedy?


You know, nobody wants to do that.


And Biden Biden's also not been a sore winner vs. Sanders. Right. I think he's taking genuine outreach.


It's all the contrast between, like, if I were a politician or probably more like Bernie. Right. Or like I don't do like all the handshaking and phone calling. Right. I'm like, hey, you know what? I am going to be very straightforward with you. And we can be honest right now. You'd be more like Trump, I think.


OK, come on, Mike. Come on. It's late. The honest takes come out.


But like but like Biden does all the glad handling stuff and it pays off. Right. Like one more person who just thinks you're a decent guy, doesn't want to have beef with you can avoid a whole lot thinking and covid terms. A whole can block a whole chain of transmission of some negative meme or something.


So let's talk about this in political terms. And I have appreciated this analysis for sure. I think it's been really good in terms of Galen's going to the strategy was before.


But but but here's the thing.


So, first of all, how much of the party is he actually at risk of losing because they're too far left and they're annoyed by centrist or quote unquote, all Americans appeals? Is that actually a sizable part of the party? I think even in 2016, it wasn't that many people who originally supported Sanders but ended up voting for Trump or, you know, not voting for Hillary Clinton. And then my other question is, so we saw what the strategy for Biden is like tonight.


It's appeal to all Americans, try to speak to that 60 percent of Americans who say they either don't know or don't approve of the job that President Trump is doing. Is that the better strategy than trying to fire up the base? In general, yeah, I mean, so first of all, Trump does a lot of the work for Biden in terms of the base, right.


Because I mean, if Trump truly were an economic populist, then it might be different. Right. But he's but he's not right. He's trying to take Obamacare away from people and not replace it with Medicare for all. Obviously, he has been quite corrupt in certain ways. Right. We should mention today that Steve Bannon was arrested on a boat. Apparently, if anyone on the left he's remotely concerned about racism, then you have a lot of reasons, especially in the current climate, to want to vote against anybody, against Trump.


So people on the left should not really need a whole lot of motivation. But the thing, too, is like if you flip a voter, then you go from a negative one to a plus one.


So it's a net two point shift, right? If you get someone turn out, it's just a plus one. It's half as important. So I think the pundit pundit ocracy has become too obsessed with the notion that turnout is all that matters when if you make any real effort to look at the empirical evidence, it says that most voting shifts all the Obama Trump voters and there are quite a few of them matter more. And their polls to this L.A. Times poll that's coming out, the L.A. Times USC poll of L.A. Times sponsoring more.


The USC tracking poll actually take some people from 2016. They were in their tracking poll then and asked them who are going to vote for in 2020. And they have seen a fair number of shifts from Trump to to Biden.


I want to get Claire and Mike, your reactions to this clearly presented strategy from Biden this evening, both in Biden's speech and a lot of the biography and friends and family of Biden that we heard from tonight. We're talking about a decent guy who can appeal to all Americans. It sounds like that's going to be the Democrats strategy going into the fall. That plus, I guess the other thing is, you know, covid has wrecked the economy and our normal lives.


Does that sound about what they need to do to seal up the election? Yeah.


I mean, look, if you look at the polling, Biden has a really good favorable among Democrats, better than just about everyone except for the Obamas. Right. And he's not that far behind them. So if you're in the Biden campaign and you're looking around, I don't think particularly with those the issues you just mentioned, Galen, I don't think you're that worried about about the left than about turnout, although you're obviously and you saw that throughout the convention trying to speak.


So so I guess I would put it this way. You know, going back to Nate's drawing the difference between turnout and persuasion, much of the convention seemed geared towards the center in terms of ideology, image.


Hey, but Biden said in a speech, right, I'm going to represent all of us where the convention focused.


I thought on the left, particularly young voters, wasn't about ideology. Mostly it was more just about like, hey, we know you hate politics. We know you're disenchanted. We know you're fed up. Please vote. You've got to vote. Turn out to vote, make a plan to vote.


So, you know, I think they are they want Biden to be seen as a moderate candidate, as someone who former Republicans feel comfortable voting for and then I think are going to use Trump to try to, you know, sort of like patch up any any leakage.


That's not the right metaphor. Whatever, you know, leakage on on the left flank, if that makes sense, that that metaphor didn't fly.


You said it all with your face click.


It's very much about who didn't vote in 2016. And I think Michelle Obama in particular, I mean, she wore it on her necklace. She said it with her words. She said, you need to vote. And I think, you know, if you looked at, like black voters in particular during the primaries, while black voters overall, including younger, younger black voters, were more for Biden, there was still a little like an enthusiasm gap in younger black voters.


So you could say, like we're worried about, we both want to like they kept on playing that Republicans for Joe video like I think every single night at the convention. So that's obviously a theme. But I think that it's obviously a theme that they want to make sure that people who who would probably be a Democrat if they voted, do vote and do pay attention. And that did feel like the more so than like people who are super tuned into politics.


And because it's not Bernie and because they're resentful, they don't vote. It's more of the the apathetic voter or the tuned out voter or the disillusioned voter. Right.


It's different problems. Right. They're worried that the Kazik voter will vote for Trump and they're worried that the Bernie voter or the Warren voter won't vote right there to they're just different problems and to go about trying to to solve for them in different ways.


And I will say there was a part of the convention that reminded me of something that actually showed up in one of Claire's pieces a couple of years back that you did on activism on the left. And somebody I don't remember who it was, gave you a quote that was like, we can turn Joe Biden into FDR if we had to like our job is to push whoever the candidate is to support the policies that we want. And you actually heard that same sentiment from Andrew Young tonight.


He said you can put any radical I'm paraphrasing, you can put any radical policy you want on Joe Biden and all of a all of a sudden it becomes reasonable because of who Joe Biden is, his character, his image. And you also heard Joe Biden begin his speech with a reference to FDR s New Deal, essentially saying that that's what we need in this moment. I don't know how much people are paying attention to that, but that was certainly a strain that I saw.


And the fact that they let Andrew Young say that and they kept it in the pre-recorded video was notable.


Yeah, you can launder a lot of progressive ideas through the figure of Joe Biden. Yeah.


And he's so non ideological, right, that he's kind of I mean, this is like a very classic way to do politics and represent democracy. Say, like, I'm going to be a vessel and I will kind of feel out the consensus among my constituents and therefore represent that consensus. Right. For some reason, like modern ideologically driven politics doesn't recognize that. But like it's a he's pretty true to his word. I think historically I like actually shifting with the winds in a fairly predictable way.


Right. He's influenced by interest groups inside the Democratic Party. And he really is kind of at the meeting. Like literally, if you look at like his W nominate score or whatever, about how he votes in Congress, like literally he was like always at the meeting of the party, pretty much. Right. He would shift as the party would shift left or right.


So if someone says, hey, prove to me that you have influence. And that you speak for an important set of voters and I will move in your direction. It could be a little transactional and that's OK, because you're getting kind of he's a fair broker.


There's also, I think, back to kind of two pieces Perry Perry has done in the last year. One is a piece laying out what you just said in eight, which is if you look at Biden's history, he's just like so reliably at the median of the Democratic Party. And as that has shifted left, so has Biden. And so if you're on the left, you think, OK, the party's shift to the left, Biden, Biden will shift with it.


The other thing, though, is the moment we're in the reckoning over systemic racism, the pandemic and the the economic fallout of the pandemic. Whatever the left can do to push Biden to the left, whatever Bernie can do, to push Biden to the left, however far that goes, tack on another like 50 miles to the left based on that pandemic and the need to respond to it and all its effects. Right.


Like we're in a moment where Republicans in Congress are debating not whether or not to take huge governmental action, but like how huge that action should be if a Biden administration happens.


You have to imagine it would happen in a context where even by the standards of four years ago, it is taking really ambitious leftist policy positions in response to the pandemic because the pandemic has shifted the Overton Window so much.




In a sense, we're saying that the critique that Trump has tried to launch at the Biden campaign, there's a real truth to it. I guess it's got to be frustrating for them that through the strength of Biden's own image or character, people don't see him that way, but that probably a lot of people in the party are thinking about what you just said.


I mean, that's kind of a politician's value over replacement politician in some ways. Right? Like someone who can appear. And there's also things about age and race and gender that play in here. Right.


Objectively, Biden has the most left wing platform since McGovern.


Now, it is not as far left to be sure as Elizabeth Warren's platform would have been or Bernie Sanders is.


But it's pretty far left relative to Obama's even on some issues. But people think Biden is this kind of old safe Uncle Joe white male. Right. And so they don't see him as being radical. So, yeah, like in some ways, the kind of Trojan horse critique is.


One of the smarter critiques that can try, but people may not just buy it because of Biden and in some ways the fact that, you know, I think the fact that Biden was portrayed during the primary is like, oh, he is the safe, moderate alternative. Right. That set him up very nicely. I mean, one last thing.


If you were a progressive Democrat, your key to actually getting Medicare for all passed? Well, I don't think that'll happen. But, you know, some significant health care reform is getting 52, 53, 54, 55 Democratic senators. And that means winning Senate races in states like Georgia and Iowa and Arizona, maybe Texas, maybe, you know, exotic ones like Kansas and whatnot. Right. Maybe holding on in Alabama. These are pretty red states at most purple.


And so, you know, you just if you're being purely strategic and you want Medicare for all, you kind of got to, like, get on Team Joe, make sure lots of money is going to these candidates.


Right. And then November 4th, there won't be November 4th. It's going to be weeks to count. Right. But December 1st. Right. Then you can start applying the pressure, blah, blah, blah. Right. But you really need to get at least 51 senators, at least. So Joe Manchin is a vote against all your priorities and realistically, probably again, fifty fifty three or so. And that requires kind of playing ball and being on the team.


You do think back to during the primary where you heard from a lot of voters, particularly black voters.


Hey, we who who are white people in Ohio or Michigan or Wisconsin going to vote for and and Biden seemed like the safest choice there to a lot of voters and therefore the the smartest electoral play.


There are many days to go here and the race could tighten and who knows what will happen.


But based on the polls right now, you'd have to say those voters, like, had a good read on where the country is at.


Well, that was like the majority of Democrats, right? Every time you polled Democrats, whether they preferred electability or somebody who represented their ideology, the majority chose electability. And so I think we're seeing the result of a primary that prioritized exactly that. I want to close this off by just giving you guys an opportunity to give your final thoughts of the evening about either this night in particular or the whole convention or even looking ahead to the Republican convention. We're going to be doing this all over again next week.


Four nights. Claire, take us off.


I honestly find the convention going to be a strange viewing experience and also, frankly, like a strange thing to be like live blogging about and commenting about, in part because it's so I don't know how to put it. It's a. It's the thing that all reporters about politics profess that they don't like to do, which is draw criticism, but which much of politics is by dint of, you know, these created events like conventions and debates. And so you have to cover them.


So I found that to be much more pointed and upfront this week. And I honestly have struggled with, like, my cynicism about the format and my I have found some of the segments about real people, frankly, like to be pretty compelling, particularly the stuff that has to do with covid, particularly the stuff that has to do with kids whose parents have been deported. Like those heartstrings. Things are pretty well produced as a video package and then obviously is like human events are pretty, you know, up front and very much in the news and on Americans minds.


But I have had this very this tug of war in my mind of I guess it comes down to, wow, I can't believe that this is like what politics reporting is right now, because in some ways, politics feels very superficial at a time right now when, again, we're still in the middle of a pandemic and we're still seeing, you know, thousands of people die.


So so it is this this weird sense that it's not that the the convention wasn't sobering and points, but it's just it's you know, it's an odd mix of frippery and cynicism and sort of, you know, real emotions about politics and the political moment that the country's in.


Claire, you're too thoughtful for this job, you know, but like, look, this is always an issue with the conventions in some ways, the fact that all these reporters are traveling to a physical location. Right. And you go through security, it's all happening live. Right.


It kind of gives this veneer reason, that veneer term a lot tonight gives us kind of a veneer of newsworthiness. When really it is scripted, although a scripted live performance for scripted performance, not quite the same thing, but they're very similar.


Right. But really it's an eight hour.


Over four nights made for television infomercial the conventions, right, and this just makes that more explicit. And so in some ways it's more honest, right? One year we'll finally get Jessica. But she'll be the most newsworthy event in political history. But the other 95 percent of the time, you have an eight hour infomercial and it might not be the worst thing for a democracy to, like, say, OK, everything else is spun and filtered through the media.


So here are eight hours for the parties can program them however they see fit and make their pitch for eight hours. Right. Just one time every four.


Interesting, actually. That's interesting, Nate. Like, that's an interesting defense because I have been irritated when networks have cut in with talking heads like the futility of cable talking heads or whatever has never been more clear and present to me than in this week where I'm like, no, no, no, just give me the raw, unfiltered stuff. Like, yeah, like I do kind of want to hear. It's basically like it's the YouTube version of the party's platform.


Yeah, yeah. I think well, what I've been interested in and I hope that I've helped portray on these podcasts this week is that it's an opportunity for us to learn about the parties and who they think they are and the messages that they're trying to send. Then an actual opportunity to learn about who's going to win the election. And so I hope I hope our commentary and questions have reflected that. But go ahead, Mike.


No, I think I think that's a really good way to look at the conventions as just like a ice sample. What do they call those things where they go into the, like, North Pole and get a base? I don't know.


Yeah. And yeah. Neistat That's what it's called. It's definitely not a nice step, but, you know, an oil drill.


Well, yeah.


Now, you know, like an ice core of of of who the party is, who the party wants to be, where the tensions are in the party.


I think usually you see that on display at conventions.


I think for this convention, this convention was missing some of the like procedural hoopla and rules and weird, weird logistics that again, to go back to our word of the night, the new year, give the convention in addition to just all the media being there, give the convention a veneer of like small D democracy happening. I think that also explains what Claire's talking about, where it just felt more it felt more like like I every night, basically, while we were live blogging, I thought to myself at least a few times, like, should we be live blogging this?


It's basically I think I wrote this at some point. It's it's a DNC scripted news show in the middle of other news shows. It's like two layers of news shows. And then we're live blogging about those two new shows. So you literally would have moments where, like the DNC host who in appearance and role and function was doing exactly what like Rachel Maddow does or or Chris Hayes does or, you know, Sean Hannity does. Right. And then there would be a break in from Rachel Maddow or Sean it.


And it was just like that is always weird, but also like so there's a there's an episode and I'll stop talking. But there's an episode in The West Wing where they have this fight over between the networks and the White House over how much of the convention they're going to they're going to show.


And, you know, Toby, who's like the grizzled old speechwriter, his his argument to the networks is basically what Nate said, which is, yeah, I don't think it's such the worst thing in the world for the American people to hear from their candidates directly uninterrupted for an extended period of time.


I think there's an element of truth to that, but also.


You know, Biden's speech was like the shortest in modern convention history, I think there's data showing that now.


It's also worth saying that in our contemporary world, politicians get to speak directly to the people all the time through social media. It's no longer every day like such a rare occurrence. I mean, the other thing I will say about being there in person is that you're talking to actual people like you're talking to Democrats are talking to protesters, you're talking to sources, and you have access to all of them right there. And so if you want to find a story there, you can you can't interact with.


I watched the virtual convention in a similar way.


I watched I watched these four nights of television with two Ohio voters who both went to bed before Biden talked. And at one point, one of them said, what is what are they telling us? What is this all about?


Like they were so perhaps my cynicism comes from somewhere.


But there was there was a confusion on the part of Ohio voters as to what all the Zoom's were about.


Can we please invite your parents on for a podcast? I know that the world cannot handle them.


I mean, I you know, I do think there's a weird thing that's true for, like a lot of covid stuff, which is like expectations get set really low for this virtual substitute. And at first it kind of sucks. And then you get acclimated to it and like, oh, this isn't that bad, right? I'm not as convinced by all the takes that like, oh, this is a better way to the convention. I think clearly when you have like nine famous people who are nonpoliticians speaking in their home or community, that is more effective.


Right. And I think you'll see more of that. But I think there's a little bit of it's not Stockholm syndrome, but like a little bit of like we're kind of getting used to this and trying to make the best of it.


I do think that like like I'm not saying this convention set that high bar, I do think for the Republican convention next week, like, the floor is really low if you have, like, low production values and a poorly organized program, because Republicans thought for a while they would be able to give a convention in Charlotte and then to Jacksonville.


And now it's nowhere like we don't even know who the speakers are, really. Right. So does it really matter? Probably not.


But like but there's like an X percent chance for actually some fairly large number of that's going to be a disaster next week, although who knows, right. Again, you lower expectations. You clear those, but.


Yeah. All right. Well, that's a good place to leave things, although the mouse that has been running around my apartment this evening just darted across the room again. And so I need to go try to take care of that.


So that has Galen has the mouse had any missionary sex that you've noticed? What's been in your head?


That's rats. My God. That I'm glad that in this podcast. And that's only because it's past midnight and because here's the context. Before we got on the podcast tonight, as we were bantering beforehand, Claire told us a story about seeing rats having missionary sex on the street in New York. So if that's an advertisement for New York City, I don't know what is rat in kids.


You can see it in New York rat lovemaking. But we I would be curious, do mice make love missionary or is that just a rat thing? I think it might have to do with the tails. You can't. You you can't. Well, their dogs have tails.


And with that, we are wrapping up our podcast coverage of the Twenty Twenty Democratic National Convention. Thank you, Nate Silver. Thank you. Galen Droog. Thank you. Claire Malone, thanks. And thank you. Michael Cohen. Thank you, guys. And a reminder to go check us out on YouTube, go subscribe so you can see all the, you know, weird things that happened on tonight's podcast. But anyway, my name is Gaylan Drew.


Tony Chow is in the virtual control room listening to all of this weird banter. You can get in touch by emailing us at podcasts at five thirty eight dotcom. You can also, of course, tweet us with questions or comments. If you're a fan of the show, leave us a rating or review in the Apple podcast store or tell someone about us. Thanks for listening and we'll see you soon.