I say this with such adamant confidence that your relationship will never be as successful as it could be if you are not willing to talk about your own mental health.

Hi, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girlguiding. Welcome back. We made it past the three year mark. We made it so we'd like to inform you guys. This is going to be our last episode.

So we had a three year goal with a three year plan to do anything out of three or four major that we're the same person for every last episode alert. All right. Let's think of our part as really quickly, thanks to Rory for supporting girls. Got Rory is a digital health clinic for your skin care. Go to hello, Rory. Dotcom agreed to try out nightly defense for just five dollars. And thanks to Canada for supporting girls, got a candid, clear eyeliners are comfortable removeable and totally invisible so you can transform your smile without anyone noticing.

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And thank you, Ernest. Ernest is often our listeners. Oh one hundred dollars cash bonus. Refinance your student loan debt at Ernest Dotcom. Sluggy terms and conditions apply and MLS number 12 04 nine seventeen. I got to tell you, I was open up my my photos to read this email to you and I screenshot and like right in the front is this deck pack like I read. Oh my God. And it's in my phone twice now you're saving the same deck twice.

It was in my phone twice when you were airdropping me photos from something and you just included those. I hate you. I hate what do you do that shit. And then it says Accept and that's the first one. So I have to hit except to get the other ones.

That is, you know, get it out of here. Listen, we're going to talk about it in a couple of weeks.

I don't want to like it just in case this doesn't come to fruition. We have a guest we are so excited about coming up. OK, here's my hand.

I have watch. I have spent hundreds of days in hotels with him. Everybody knows on television. Everybody knows now because we people that we watch that show. Well, actually, I don't know how it used to be a lot of shows that we watch Catfish and CSI. So it could be Detective Stabler, somebody from CSI or from Catfish?

I don't know. I don't know. I I'm not going I'm so excited. I feel like I just like I did. All my dreams are coming to fruition. We've great episodes coming for you guys. We are so excited about it. Today is is no exception. We have Kelsey Deira. She's phenomenal. We talk about anxiety, panic disorders, dating with those things. We're really excited. She is a dream. I love her so much. We already recorded this a couple of days ago.

And I like we like got off the zone with her and I missed her immediately. I was like, Kelsey, come back. And then she followed me back on Instagram. And I think we're going to what her podcast I was I'm attached to this morning. You did? Yeah. We're already we're becoming friends. What?

This is all I text. Actually, she's not a part of it. I'll text our our agents and she'll be like what we're talking about. We have a group text. Why wouldn't you are the group? I'm not no one's on more group text than other person than I am with you. Yeah. I think there's like fifty people like when I start to type in your name actually. Yeah. OK, we got an email I want to tell you about.

It's so funny. This is the March email.

It's emerging about you guys not only to glorify your stupid machismo because I feel like it encourages more people setting stupid marches, rallies. But this was funny and worked on the this so we can manage to also keep on the march. So on the title in all caps is Raida and actually don't hate me, please. I was like with this Ridgedale. So she says, hey, with four wives who she wants to fuck. You got to that joke.

Before I did I was like, OK, we just got a booty call for Wiseman's. Like, she wants you anal. OK, let us do it all. Yeah. Because we do is hey, with wise anal and high with a bunch of eyes that's just regular sex. I thought it was just a man of eyes denotes how much dirty stuff you're going to do. OK, like how much you want. Hi. With a bunch of eyes like I'm a good girl, is it?

No, but I'm just saying, like, your child feels not er hayfields. Hey, feels like let's fuck right now. I could be like, what are you doing. And then you're like, get there. Yeah.

It's OK for wise. So I know it makes you guys kind of salty when people message you about orders and how stupid they are when they mess up bad. Hi. I'm one of those people now I guess in all caps I was finally able to order the new merch so somehow pay how fucked up my address. So with five O's, that's rehaul, all the other I'm looking to change. That is that's my damn ex's house. And I will be so pissed if his new girl opens this and I fucking know she will.

Any who smiley face. Here's my new address. OK, that's amazing. Made me laugh so hard to imagine.

She accidentally sent the merchandise to her boyfriend, her ex-boyfriend, his new girlfriend. OK, back before you went. I mean, I had a business before with like pros being basic. I would like sell all this march. And the story was basically I got like there was a hundred to two.

It was like one hundred and fifty dollars merch order, which is a lot of this is a significant order. You know, like I lost my income was coming like partly from the march I was selling, like I was like and I saw that it got like just like taken back out of my account, like disputed like the by the buyer disputed it with Amex and Amex, like took it back out or whatever or whatever credit card. And I was like what is going on here.

And then I had like an email and bottom line it appeared that this girl had bought a bunch of merch on her boyfriend's credit card and then they broke up and he disputed the charge. It was like this fucked up thing. And like I was getting all these emails, I was like between them. And I was just fucking pissed because I was like, you bought it. You got the merch and now he gets to dispute it. You're guider.

And he was like messaging. And he was like, she stole my credit card. I was like, I don't care. But like, you guys need to give me that money. Like I'm a small business that was nuts. And I just like I can hear all the details. I remember I get, like, bombarded with with emails from these two people. You're in the middle. And I was like, that's unfair. The merch was delivered.

You have it. And now you were taking money out of my pocket because you guys can keep your relationship. Yes. I was like, she stole my car. Like, I don't care. Get better control of your finances. Can you imagine e-mailing the gap and being like, listen, my boyfriend and I broke up like, no, I don't need this information. I was so pissed at Anna also. What if that guy's new girlfriend is a big fan?

And he was like, I bought it for you.

Right. I know. I just love that. That that's the reason is that was like going to go to her ex, his house. I was like, say no more fam. Yeah, we got you. I like she's like, I know you guys get really salty. No know. But it's funny because we used to complain about this stuff and then didn't you like put in something wrong for some online order. I did one of those really.

But we were like, OK, well, you know, happens everybody I don't know what it was.

And then the other day I was going this was in the Where Are They now? Episode the bonus episode from a couple of days ago.

I was going through the where they now emails like in a folder. We put everything in folders we can like easily sift through them and keep them organized. And I saw an email from GrubHub.

I forgot about this and I saw an e-mail from GrubHub for an order that you ordered it. If the receipt was coming to your personal email, I don't know how it was in our folder. Do you know how it got there? OK, first of all, OK, Ash and I share a bunch of email addresses, so like, you know, we produce the show. We were booking, shopping, email address. We have merchandise all the time.

So I spent all day shuffling emails from like one email to the next and putting it in folders. It's that is my job with the podcast is organizing the emails.

And so I must have just it accidentally sorted it into a different email address and into the where are they now. But where are they now? With Rayna Greenberg sitting alone at home ordering four slices of artichoke pizza. That's a great big. Yeah, it was. Ah yes, it was artichoke. It was just so funny. Like I was reading all these incredible, inspiring stories about where people are now that it's like Reyna's for a pope.

That's great. And it wasn't like a nice salad or it was four slices of pizza, artichoke peel. That's a lot of food. I know. I know. I get scared. I get carried away. I like everything they make. Oh yeah. Oh, my God. That was so funny. You guys. It is amazing emails. Thank you. We tried. We're trying to get to all of them. But all of your support over the last three is so wonderful.

We appreciate your support for the three hour episode. Yeah. Oh yeah. The response was great. So we love you guys. Yeah. So we're going to make the intro today. We got one of your emails. We want to unpack it. And then actually it's like a recent story that we're going to talk about. Just give some advice and let me to read it to you. Yeah, I'm here. Rhetorical to the list. Rhetorical.

Oh, God, that's for everybody. OK, it's very short, which we can't stress this enough. Keep them brevity. I don't know if that were OK. The title is What is Wrong With Men? OK, that should be just the episode title for anything. The new podcast. New podcast. Yeah. Hi ladies. Big fan here. Help me, help me figure this stuff out. So when I can't. Figure out this guy, I figured you guys be the best to ask what kind of man turns down a friend with benefits situation?

We started as friends who fuck, but he says he, quote unquote, has a lot of shit going on. So we should just be friends now. What with a bunch of question question marks, exclamation points. Is he human? What kind of man ruins a good thing? What should I do? Thanks. So they were already friends with benefits, so they were already fucking. So it's like, I don't know girl. Do you think that was going to last forever?

Like those things and they just they end like you don't just be friends who fuck forever, you know, like somebody starts dating somebody or somebody just gets tired of it or somebody just like I don't feel like doing this anymore on both sides. Whatever party like that to me has an expiration date.

This wasn't like her trying to make a friends with benefits situation. It was trying to continue something they were already doing that like is something that is not gonna last forever. Yeah, I mean, they're going to be a thousand reasons. I think that our narrative about men is that they all just want to fuck every single person. Pussy, pussy. We got to beat all the pauses and like, maybe this guy's just like I think this has run its course and I'm not going to just, like, string this person along forever because, like, I like her as a person.

But like maybe he's like I feel like she got feelings a little bit. I don't have feelings. I'm not catching up. Or like maybe he got feelings and he's like she doesn't want anything besides friends with or maybe he got feelings for somebody else. Maybe he is just like, OK, we did this, it was fun while it lasted and now I like somebody unhinge or, you know, whatever. Like there is a million reasons you could you could ask him, like it's probably not that he just has a bunch of stuff going on.

But also I do know guys that are like really into sex and sex is it becomes a distraction for them in their lives. And I've heard many guys that are like I it's affecting, like my career, other relationships in my life. And they like kind of put a pause on sex while they, like, focus on other things. So I don't know what's going on his career, but that's definitely a thing. And I know that from having like so many guy friends that are very open with me, like, if he's like, OK, like I've been fucking this girl and it's just kind of like I got sex on the brain, like it's time for me to, like, buckle down at work or whatever.

Like that could be a thing, too, where he really just has a lot going on. I don't know what's going on with his family, somebody kind of covert. I mean, you never know what's going on. Like, he could just be like, this sucks this friends with benefits thing. It's just not working for me in my life right now. I do have a lot of other shit going on that I need to prioritize.

You never know. You never know. And there's also like I think of a really good guy friend of mine. He always has like three girls in the rotation that he's sleeping with. And I think that, like, when one gets a little too serious and he's like, I'm just not trying to, like, have anybody catch feelings for me at all because I do not want to commit to anybody at all whatsoever. I think he just hits the pause button, you know, like some people just they're just done with the experience.

You know, you're right. I could be other friends of any of it. Yeah. Other person that is might have slipped into the top slot. And there's nothing wrong with you ever being the kind of person that, like, is like, I want to keep fucking what's the big deal? Like there's nothing wrong with you. That doesn't mean you're not like attractive and fun and cool and smart, like somebody could just be done with it. Not everybody's to want to be an every pussy all the time.

Yes. And I don't know how close their friendship is. She didn't specify. But if this is her close friend and she wants to keep the friendship, somehow, it's I'm not saying it's impossible. It's going to be a little bit difficult after they've just, like, bonded it up. But, like, it can be done. Like, I think we've fucked friends of friends of ours before that we're close with. Now, we talked about before.

I think she could have a conversation with him, but she can't lead with that attitude. She can't lead with you're not a real man if you don't want to fuck me anymore. What are you not you. Yeah. Are you stupid? Yeah. So if she what if she really wants to salvage the friendship, I think she can rein it in, realize that this is not working for him anymore. I respect that. And go to him with like hey like obviously the, the friends with benefits thing wasn't working anymore and we have a lot going on.

But I really would love to know, like is there something else that I want to be? I still wanna maintain the friendship. Is there something else you just want to open up to me about? I'm here. I'm not judging. I'm fine with this ending, but like I would like to maintain our friendship if not today than down the road. So, like, I just kind of want you to be, like, transparent with me, but like, you have to be open and willing to hear the truth and kind of nix this like fuck you attitude before you go there.

I think that it's probably what's frustrating to her is this like this feedback of like I just have a lot of stuff going on. It's like, well, you didn't have enough stuff going on before when you're a fucking man. It's like I understand feeling like that's not enough of an answer for you. But like I have a situation with somebody that I was not sleeping with, but it was somebody I'm always attracted to and I did want to sleep with.

And I was like, what's the deal here? Like, we have so much fun. Like we love each other. We're clearly attract each other. And he was just like because I really like our friendship and I want to be friends. I want to continue being friends. I'm not going to be in a serious relationship with you. I'm just not. And like I'm so glad now in retrospect that he said that I didn't like it in the moment because it made me feel like am I not good looking enough to fuck me?

But like, it's not about that. We actually are really good friends. And I watch the way he is with other girls. And I don't want to get treated like that. And like I feel like, oh my God, I dodged a bullet. And like, I get to have this, like, best friend in this person who I, like, have no weird sexual stuff with. And like, I'm like, thank God he stopped me from doing that.

Yeah, I'm happy about it. Totally. And nothing can ever be misconstrued now, like if I'm flirting with him a little better, I give him feedback about a girl. Like it's not because I'm. Jealous or anything like that, yeah. Oh, absolutely. And then if you guys want, we did a deep dive on this episode probably in twenty nineteen called showed you fuck your friends. So should you fuck your friends. I think. Twenty eighteen.

Yeah. I don't think it was twenty eighteen.

So this kind of does dovetail into like the story that I kind of want to share on the podcast just because it was like something data really that you and I talked about. But this was a situation that happened to me not too long ago, probably more closer to the summer fall maybe. And this is the guy that like I had dated casually and it didn't end badly, just kind of like fizzled out, you know, covid happen, things like that.

And we still would chat here and there. We did sort of reconnect and go on a date this summer. But like, it's not somebody that I saw dating. Seriously, I know he felt the same way. So I was thinking that it would be like a good booty call situation, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think either of us were going to catch those real feelings and we had great sex, whatever. So I did try to booty call one day with the best line, and I'll read that for you guys here.

OK, this is in October. So this is like earlier in October, I said, oh my God, I hate myself. OK, I said, this is true. This is what this what happened to me that day. I said, I just got sugared and a negative covid test. What are you doing tonight with, like, the tongue out, like winky emoji, like the like quite a bit more clear sugared is bikini wax, whatever.

He knew, he knew that. And and I was like DTMF like I was like, no, I could tell the body's like everything's healthy. It poses like barer ready to go. And he wrote, haha, this is the ultimate twenty twenty pick up line.

And I was like so I thought OK, so I made you laugh. Are you coming over, are you going to take over.

And I this, this is a guy that like you know does work in comedy like he does that probably you know, whatever. Well we'll get to it. And I was like, oh my gosh, I felt rejected. I was like, I there's nothing else for me to do here. Like, I'm not going to be like, hey, I was serious. You know, I didn't know if that was him just deflecting or whatever. And then the next day he set me he in the morning, like the next morning he sent me like a song that like we had heard on one of our days.

It's kind of like not when they wrote this song. Maybe he wrote a song for me called I've Never Heard Of Fuck You Got No, he he was like, this just came on my Spotify made me think of you kind of thing. And I was like, what? It's so so I wrote rejecting a booty call. Then following up with a song is an interesting move.

And he go, he goes, wait, that was a booty call. And he was like, I just thought it was a good joke, which it was.

And I go, No, I was not running a bit by you guys. Listen, we talk about it. It's just it's funny. And then at that time, he was he does kind of like works, does jobs with a guy friend of ours and a mutual friend of mine, Raina's. And he said, I'm with him with him right now, our mutual friend. And he said to me, you're blowing it. And so we told him the story, which I fully know that this guy like is just kind of clueless.

I knew that before. Like, I don't know that he would have come over and fucked me that night. But I do actually believe that he didn't think I was serious. And that's what I think he even told our guy for an hour before I was like, dude, are you what the fuck are you doing? And I just like, emphasized the text, like, exclamation point. I was like, I'm done with this guy and I should have been done with it, you know what I mean?

Like, those things really don't work out perfectly. Like maybe I would have caught feelings, maybe he would have, you know what I mean? Like, it's not what you think. It just was like I did not fuck somebody a long time. I was covered for you. Just got my pussy waxed like I was ready to go. But this reminds me, this is like kind of a two part story. This reminds me of I'm reading John Bergers new book called Make Your Move, which is we had him on the show a couple weeks ago and he we talked about his new book.

The book is incredible. I can't recommend enough. But there's this part in the beginning of the book that talks about how guys can be really clueless and not understand when a woman is sitting on them. And guys were polled and they answered the question, what's the most obvious hint from a girl you've missed? And all of these guys shared their answers. We could do a deep dive on this, like, don't know. And it was just like all these guys honestly answer this one said this guy said, I had a girl ask me once if I wanted to sleep with her.

It was nearly a year later that it occurred to me that she might have been serious. Oh, my God. One guy, the girl said her want to share a taxi back to my place. And then the guy goes, Sure, I can drop you off, then go home myself. He said, I woke up in the middle of that night and knew exactly what I had done. Do you realize what was you like, shoot up out of bed in the middle and you're like, that's not that bad.

Yeah. So I think that this guy, we had it hung out in a while, like, I think that he just didn't think I actually wanted to, like, fuck him that night. I think that's like a thing that hit. He's a good guy. He's just a good guy, is kind of clueless. I would always have to kind of like be really direct with them. And so I just say that to be like sometimes it's just they really don't understand.

You have to spell it out. But bottom line is, what happened later with this whole story was maybe like a couple weeks after that. We were at your place. I was at your house. You had a. Pull people over and the friend was there, that mutual friend, and it came up, that whole situation, he was like, oh my God, I was with him that day. He didn't know you had a booty call him.

He was like, so like, oh, my God, I'm such an idiot. I told him he was blowing it or whatever. And then what happened next was that our mutual friend told him to just like, leave it alone and like, not fuck with me anymore.

And what he told me that I was like, wait a minute, I didn't tell you to do it. You took my dating life into your hand and never you know, he never mentioned it to you. Like, he weeks went by and he never was like, hey, by the way, I like I took a monumental step on your behalf. Yeah. Like, what if we're all just sitting around thinking, like, I haven't heard from this guy weeks one of all of this because their friend told them to stop talking to you and they just listen.

Yeah. And he knew the situation. Our mutual friend knew the back story. He knew that he wasn't taking anything away from me. I think he was just like, dude, you keep fucking up. She, you know, get out and be on good terms with Ashley while you can. Like, I don't really think that's a girl you really want to piss off or, like, fuck with, you know what I mean? Like, I think that was probably how he thinks, too.

And, you know, he's in our good graces and things like that. I think he was just like, give it up. This is and like never I never heard from that guy again until he reached out after do it right. He's a good guy. So I say and I feel good about him. I don't feel burned by him in any way. But it was just so funny because we had our friend not stepped in and been like, leave her alone, you know, without my consent.

But OK, then me and that guy probably would have dreamed and texted and he would always just like pop up here and there. And I would we should we should we try to do it again? Should we fuck again? And like it was this weird feeling of like kind of a relief that he was out of my life because our friend told him without me knowing also not because of you, you can be like it's not because you don't want to talk me.

It's because someone taller than him told someone bigger and bigger, taller you.

Yeah, but like, just people are like, why does he even if I was a thousand reasons why some you want to like maybe that guy I just wanted to be actually in your good graces and like just really like kind to each other. I know he's like am I going to talk with her anymore. Yeah. Or maybe someone told him to stop fucking you. Yeah. Yeah. And I just feel like it was I've seen that guy make jokes about being like too lazy to like date or whatever, like hook up with girls and like that's a thing too.

Like jokes aside, like sometimes guys are just lazy, they don't feel like, I don't know, coming into Manhattan from Brooklyn or whatever like it. Guys, like we said, are just not always just like DTF all the time, whatever pussy they can get. And some guys definitely are like, everybody's different, you know, but some guys aren't. And I just want to break that stigma. They're just always ready to go. But I just I do like the story because it's just that, like, I probably would have told that guy to, like, leave me alone, you know, like the outcome that probably should have happened happened because someone took it upon themselves to intervene in my dating life.

I saw I saw that he just like went away, like out of sight. Out of mind. We're about social media. I'm blocking people and things like that. And an episode coming up. But like, he's just nice when someone just ceases to exist because like, you forget that text from somebody. Often I hear from you weeks you feel great. You're like killing it in that one text message is like, God damn it. It's just like I'm I stew in it for hours and I'm like, I just didn't need to think about you.

Yeah. Because and I do think we talk about this all the time, like that is a little bit more of a guy behavior that they will just pop up, you know what I mean? Like, they're bored. They want to see what's going on. They may or may not even want to see you or fuck you or even try, but they just want some attention in that moment. And so, like, I just never talk about that again.

I know. You know what's funny, though, you asked me earlier if I have guys ever misinterpreted, if I wanted to fuck them. Yeah. I was like, no, I really cannot relate to the situation. But I you were like, so forward. I'm mostly like, I've never been that forword. My pussy is shaved and I just got a health check. Come on, what are you doing tonight? Like, I've never been that that is such a crazy thing to me is like and we're not like we're not doing this to save face.

He genuinely did not realize that you were telling him to come over and fuck you. And it's like I had to talk to him in a couple of weeks. Probably he knows I'm a comic, you know what I mean? Like, I genuinely think that he was like, that's funny. That is so funny now. But anyways, it's never happened to me. I know. I asked and I was like, this are have you? She was like, no, I'm pretty direct.

I just I can't imagine a scenario. I mean, you don't want to fuck me once I put it out there, but like, it's never happened. I put it out there and it didn't happen. All right. We have a really awesome episode for you guys today. We were so excited to get into with her. But first, we're just going to thank a couple of our partners really quickly. Yes. I'm going to tell you guys about calm.

We all know one of the most powerful ways to improve your overall health and happiness is to get a good night's sleep. I can attest to that. OK, I've gotten a lot of great sleep this week. I've been telling you, like, I've really been getting my eight hours. I know I'm really jealous of you. Like, last week I did it and I got all of my all off my schedule. So I'm feeling great and I use the car map.

I you guys know this about me. I love the soundscapes to go to sleep. I've done the meditations. I love their music. And it's the app designed to help you ease stress and get the best sleep your life. So I'm going to tell you guys a little bit about it. Well, probably what they're most known for are the sleep stories narrated by voices that you may know, like different celebrities and things like. Like Idris Elba, I'm seeing him right at the top.

Like, I definitely want him to, like, stay with me to sleep, because that's one thing that's really, really going to lose you to sleep. And there's like Asmar stories in there. There's also refreshing, knap stories. So those are just like, you know, shorter ones. And then there's meditation's within the app and then the music I've talked to I recently, I've been loving the column covers pop piano. There's a there was there was a Kitgum X.

I'm not sure if I sing or not because they add new stuff every week. So you guys can go in there and always like, see what's new. There's nature melodies. I what I use every night now is the Palm Island soundscape. And I my second favorite is the rain on Leaves Extended Mix curated by LeBron James. That's under the nature melodies too. There's music and sounds to help you guys work, relax, lullabies, all the things focus.

And so we just love it so much and we can't recommend it enough. I think it's like such a game changer and I don't know why anybody wouldn't want to use this. It's just like it's really great. So we're giving you guys a discount. For our listeners, Calm is offering a special limited time promotion of forty percent off a calm premium subscription at Calm Dotcom Sugi that is 40 percent off unlimited access to CALM's entire library and new content is added every week.

Get started today at calm dotcom Sorgi That's calm dotcom saggy And when you guys get it take a screenshot Take us on what you're listening to I'm just curious. Want to know what our listeners are listening to. So you guys have a nice sleep and I am always really excited to tell you guys about candid. If you guys are unhappy with your smile, which you guys know I used to be, we're going to talk about it. You don't have to be candid.

Is clear, comfortable, removeable practically invisible eyeliners. I also think that like because we're not going out that much right now, this is the perfect, perfect time to do that. And I've used clear lines before and they really are almost invisible. But you do keep them in quite a bit. So because we're indoors so much more now, it's such a good time to do this. And I should we're looking through old photos of me the other day, and just like with my smile, you still look like I smiled.

Definitely. I could change my face, like straight out it like when I met you, you had your old teeth and I didn't think you have bad teeth or you have a bad smile, but like to look back and compare, like your smile is like totally different and you got something a little bit different done than just like clear liners. But it's still changing your smile, changing your teeth. Like I've just always been so proud of my teeth.

I had braces, you know, like I love my mouth. I love my smile, smile all the time. Like, I hate that people don't feel like that. And it's like, why not do something nice? So you feel so much more confident, like smiling. I like I even like hitting on guys like you seem to be across the room. You can like big smile and you feel so confident about yourself. It's so nice. So I'll see you guys a little bit about it.

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OK, ok, I'm excited guys. We were really fantastic guests with us today. She is so many things. She's an actress, a comedian, a filmmaker and a writer. She hosted a top rated iTunes comedy and social commentary podcast, Confidentially Insecure, and is currently a commentator on E's dating profile. She's the author of the book Don't Fucking Panic the Shit They Don't Tell You in therapy about anxiety disorders, panic attacks and depression. Please welcome to the show Kelsey Darah.

Yeah. Hi, thanks so much for having me. Do we get it right? Is that all your things? You nailed it. Except for one word you use at the podcast is confidentially insecure, which I love. It's confidently insecure. It's like a play on words, but confidentially insecure. It kind of sounds like a new format. I was confused to I was like secretly insecure or not. We're like proud of our team and collectively is different than confidentially.

So I'm glad you clarified. And I work so hard on these intros. I know you and I was like or spelled. That's why Ashley does a lot of the reading on the podcast. It's better than what my dad calls. I have to tell you, I did a podcast with this guy and he introduced me as like Randy Greenberg. Girl's got a podcast about cooking, that it was a cooking show. And I was like, oh, you didn't even bother to look it up.

OK, so at least, you know, I bothered to look you up. You totally bothered and read your book. Yeah, that's that's like the biggest company in the world. I was telling you, it's like you don't think about when you write a book. It's so personal, the same way like doing a podcast. You're like, oh, I'm just talking to my friend. And then you're like, now hundreds of thousands of people know about the date guys like last week, like, I don't get it.

Well, where should we start? I mean, do you wanna give us a little bit of background on you and what you're like? And I mean, if you want to tell your birth story and whatever, just for sure. Just I'm more like, oh, a double Gemini rising in moon. So I'm just tons of emotion, though. OK, let's see. Well, I'm here to talk about anxiety, which is like one of my favorite topics to talk about, which if you would have told me that, like even two years ago, I would punch you in the face and ran into your corner and taken a Xanax.

And I cried for six hours because anxiety plagued my life for so long. And what I set out to do when writing this book was really dispel the myths around anxiety versus high functioning anxiety versus debilitating anxiety versus panic attacks and panic disorder. So I'm here to promote the book, so I might as well start with, I guess, the mental health journey I am. I've been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, panic disorder and major depressive disorder, which has been a summary of like fifteen years in the mental health system.

I've definitely been misdiagnosed, not diagnosed, not listened to, completely told I was crazy, told I was completely fine, that I was making it up, that I was hormonal, that I was just being a lady, you know, all sorts of things. So in my book, you kind of get to read all about my experience in the mental health system, as well as it being a work book, which was really important to me to make the pages and chapters different exercises, tips, tricks and treatments that anyone can try to learn how to manage their unhelpful mental health thoughts and disorders.

And you on your journey through mental health, you learn like a lot of how to do. You do a lot of things. You live in L.A., you're a creative person. You work for BuzzFeed, right? I worked there for five years. I still freelance for them, like on the site. I'm actually writing an email to them right now, off to the side, not walking, talking. But I told them that's how much I multitask about Leo in the Jemena.

So you put yourself in a line situation. People are constantly judging your work. Everything you do, you say things, I'm sure that played into it, too. Yeah, absolutely. And then you decided to to write this book. So maybe we'd start with just your history with the mental health field and how you felt about seeking treatment just in general. Totally like one of the good slash bad things about writing a book about your own experiences that you have to dive back into those traumas and like talk about the worst, most fucked up parts of your life.

And what I recognized actually through this book is it was so healing because I had always thought and I talk about this in like my public speaking and online, that I thought my first panic attack really happened when I was 17 years old. And I talk about the experience of being on a plane, being very claustrophobic. I almost landed the plane because I was freaking out so bad I thought I was having a heart attack. My mom had to give me bottles of vodka behind the flight attendants back like it was bad and threw out this book when I started doing research and talking to different experts because I am not a doctor.

I should also preface with that the point was writing a book from the point of view of the patient, not the expert. And I recognize that I actually started having mental health struggles way, way, way earlier on. Then I had recognized, like I remember being on my little soccer league, my little neighborhood soccer team, and I'd be going up and down the field like feeling my heartbeat and like counting the beat and like talking to my friends and being like, is your son's heart beating this fast?

Like, how bad is my heart beating? My coach is like, Kelsie kicked a fucking ball and I'm like, going to go to a doctor or hospital. And, you know, it was written off as like hypochondriac behavior. I was the youngest child. My parents worked a lot. So it was written off as like attention seeking or I just wanted to spend time with my parents and I'd be like, hey, mom, remember that time where I couldn't swallow?

And you guys took me to the E.R. in the middle of the. When I was like eight years old, what was that? And they were like, yeah, I remember see room and they just gave you some volume and we kind of went home and I was like, never was it brought up about anxiety. It was it talked about back then. So in writing this book, I got to recognize my my journey with the system and being put on medication was really stunted.

And then it was like once I did start seeking treatment and did go to therapy, it was like the floodgates opened, baby. It was like zero to 60, real motherfucking quick. And, you know, deciding to seek treatment was something that happened out of, like, pure desperation, not to get too deep into, like depression. And, you know, that side of things, because I know this an episode about anxiety, but it got so bad that I was like, I want to die all the time.

Or I go to therapy. And I was like, well, I guess I could try their reverse and it doesn't work. Like, I can always go myself, like later, you know. So my to do. Yeah. It was bad. So going to therapy was like.

Like I said, the floodgates just opened. It was then like, you know, if you were willing to spend the time and money, we will throw anything and everything at you to try and fix you. And I make air quotes on fix because it's never about fixing someone. It's about management and kind of learning how everybody's bodies are different and, you know, taking the stigma away and taking those labels away from people who have mental health disorders. Mm hmm.

Yeah. One thing I like that you differentiate in the book is like normal stress and anxiety, like a bear is chasing you versus anxiety, like social anxiety disorders and things that you deal with every day at work or with friends and things like that. So I don't if you want to talk about that, like like what your day to day was like. And was it like where did it come in waves or is it just like long weeks of anxiety and then you feel sure what fine or like what was kind of like.

Yeah. And also I mean you're 30 now is OK. And when did you seek treatment like. Sure, yeah. My mom tried to put me in like child therapy and I basically was like, I don't know this lady. I don't fucking like her. Sit here, not talk to her and waste your fucking money. And I probably went to like three sessions and the therapist was like, she's just never going to talk to me. So you might as well just like try and go somewhere else.

Like, I beat the game. I beat this system. In my mind, this is in high school. And it wasn't until the plane incident where I saying that the plane that my mom was like, we have got to go see someone. And they started me out on medication. And as I kind of started to open up to the idea that someone can struggle without bordering a line of like a severe mental illness, like what we portray in the media is unfixable, like a bipolar schizophrenic.

I was like, OK, let me just kind of like dip my toe in here and there. And so when I went off to college, I made sure to prioritize having a therapist because I didn't realize that I needed that third party in my life. And I totally say that coming from a privileged position because therapy is a major, major privilege. And in the book I talk about that what kinds of therapy and how people who maybe can't afford traditional therapy can use other resources, but differentiating from just having anxiety like everybody has anxiety.

Right.

The Dalai Lama, Meghan Markle, you guys mean we all have anxiety? That is not a bad thing to have. Everyone should have anxiety. Otherwise you should get your cortisol levels checked out. We may be too happy. I don't know. Deep down, I can't relate because you never know. I don't know your type. What is it? OK, yeah. I'm like use it enough if I did. But when it becomes disruptive in your day to day life, that's when we're getting into like what I call in the book Anxiety Disorder, vill population, many, many, many motherfuckers.

And it's when it becomes, like I said, interruptive of your daily life so it can feel like it's coming out of nowhere. It can be very intense for periods of times. It can feel like waves. But there is a a stress response that your body has that doesn't feel valid. Right. So it's either overproducing or under producing if we're talking about depression or it's overstimulation. And, you know, usually it happens when other people will comment on it like, God, you just seem so intense about that thing or like, why are you so worried?

You know, it can come off really invalidating to feel these things. And you're like, well, my body is feeling these things. So what do you want me to do about it? Like we're in it's yoga. Go take a run, take a nap, do some breathing exercises. And I'm like, I don't want to do any of that because I hate running. I just don't my body doesn't run. And the other thing is, is like it's putting a bandaid over a bullet hole is how I look at it.

So if you're cope using coping mechanisms, whether it be something healthy, like breathing in yoga exercises or in my case, heavily into alcohol and a little bit of drug use, then it could become, like I said, a bandaid over a bullet hole. And what I wanted to do with this book was really give power back to the reader to explain what is happening in your body when you are experiencing that high functioning or disruptive anxiety. And while it can be a super power for a lot of people, like, you know, I consider my anxiety like fuel to getting shit done to being like that boss bitch motivation.

But it can also not be useful when I'm like at the grocery store or at an event or, you know, in places in life where even, you know, you would start to recognize on your own like this feels like not right. Like I would always say to people, like something feels wrong. Like I don't know how to tell you that. I just feel like I'm living with this fuzz over my skin that I can't shake off. And it feels overwhelming.

So for people who are on their mental health journey, you know, it's so, so, so vital to check in with yourself because what other people tell you in therapists and doctors and loved ones and people that hate you, what people say will never be as validating or helpful as what you can know and learn. About yourself, and you kind of have to trust that gut instinct and trust that you know your body well enough to know when something maybe isn't right.

Yeah, and I think that the difference might be, like you said, we all have anxiety. For me personally. I can usually place it like it's I know what it's from. It's like drinking gives me anxiety the following day. I can I can figure out what's going on. Yeah. If it's not so obvious, I can usually dig a little deeper. But would you say when it's more debilitating, it comes out of nowhere and you actually don't know why.

And that's probably like makes you even even scarier. Yeah. Yeah. Because your body just starts to function at this level that it likes, it gets used to. And you're like, why is it like this. I'm, I'm sleeping. Well I'm you know. Right. Yeah. Everything's supposed to be good, but I still feel this way and that's when we have to look a little bit deeper. And you know, in the book I try to keep the modalities of of treatment range pretty wide because I know that, you know, Western medicine isn't for everyone.

I've had such a black and white relationship with medication. You know, sometimes it's fully saved my life. Sometimes I've had negative reactions to certain things. So for me, it was about giving people the wide breadth of what treatment can look like in management can look like because what works for you is not going to work for me. Like, you know, if if someone finds something helpful that cures their anxiety, which I would always be a little cautious of anyone that says they can cure something great.

So thrilled for them, so happy for you, that doesn't mean it's going to work for me. So I've included things in the book that I did that that fully didn't work for me. But I want people to know that there are options available because it's such a fucking isolating thing. When we talk about mental health, it's so stigmatized, it's so shameful and so embarrassing that it can feel like there's only one route to take. And I wanted to show people that there are so many people not only dealing with this, but so many ways that you could try to manage your life.

Yeah, well, we are just going to take a quick break to talk about other partners first episode, and then we will continue this conversation with Kelsey. I'm going to tell you guys about Rory. We all know the importance of taking care of your skin. That's what everyone's trying to share, their skin care routine on Instagram, even though no one asked.

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And yeah, if you used, like, drinking to help medicate and totally and like I built this brand on the Internet, a lot of people know me from BuzzFeed or my drinking videos or like my Facebook feed videos would always be about girls and drinking. And this was at a time to where we had like women finally being funny again with like Amy Schumer and Tina Fey and all these women who, you know, our alcohol culture was so strongly related to, like how much you can drink equals how strong you are as a woman, which I had to really, really break down in my mind, because, again, I had built up this sort of business of being a girl who can drink and be that like that totally worked.

The culture there was alcohol based, our culture all but dating is alcohol driven like. So when I would get into social situations, my first thing is booze, baby. And once I had a couple little drinking drinks in me, I could wow anybody. I was like the star of the show. The Leo and me would come out. I could like, oh my God, I could get anything I want. I could close the deal, I could suck the deck, I could do whatever I wanted if I just had, like, a little alcohol in me.

Well, the problem with that is you take away the alcohol and I don't know who I am. I don't know how to do anything. I don't know how to negotiate. I don't know how to promote myself. I don't know how to. While people. Am I funny enough? Am I this enough? Like, I didn't think I could do it essentially. And I became very agoraphobic. And I talk about that in the book that I became so worried about what other people were thinking of me that, you know, there were weeks that I didn't leave my bedroom.

I started to imagine just disaster scenarios happening if I were to leave my place. And so something that I talk about in the book is it's a big giant page in bold. That sounds like the best news is nobody gives a fuck about you. And that's the best news ever. Like, this is kind of a tangible as I was watching a documentary about gut health, which does link to mental health and many, many friends said, oh, my gosh, I got to watch that.

I'm like, so I'm very into it. Like like, OK, then you're going to, like, love this. I feel like all my emotions are, my God, I'm like a certain type of person. It's like, what are you hsp same we are more bacteria cells than actual human cells and we have more bacterial DNA than actual human DNA. So we're not even actually human. We're bacteria with like human DNA. Good to know you are literally a bacteria.

Yeah. Like we like nothing fucking matters. We're on a big rock orbiting the sun and like that kind of role. Yeah. Kind of like insignificance used to give me so much fucking anxiety. I'd be like, well, if nothing matters and like we're all living in a simulation, like all of that shit used to freak me the fuck out. But in the book I talk about like this idea that people with high anxiety and disability, debilitating anxiety constantly feel like there's a spotlight on them.

Like, why not? Why not? We're like, it's our life, honey. We're the star of the show. But that can turn negative in that you think people are thinking things about you that they really aren't. It's something like 80 percent of conversations people are talking about themselves, which is great news because we always think we need to impress. We need to be the best we need to be on, especially in social situations, when the reality is once I recognized, like, oh, everyone in here is kind of like an insecure bacterial, like keesing, nothing.

Does matter, like if this thing doesn't go through, it's not going to affect me in any way. I have to just be present here and now. I don't need to think about disaster scenarios that could happen or something stupid. I said in the past it was really about bringing that mindfulness to those social moments. And we do also forgot we're in social circles because we're always in our heads. I mean, I am. How do I look?

How do I sound? Was that funny? Am I oversharing? You know, I look nice, whatever. And I suffer from that a lot more in college where I, like, constantly thought about that. It's like no one's thinking about you. They're digging those things about themselves. Everybody wants to know how they suffer. But that. No, I'm saying. And in college, of course. And I felt like I wasn't as pretty as my girlfriends and I wanted to talk to boys.

And it's like but then people will remember, if you were the drunkest person that fell off, fell like you drank to get rid of the insecurity and then you're the sloppiest man because you were trying to or you're like an easy ball of nerves. You just how insecure and weird you're acting. Yeah. What is wrong with her? Smoke some weed. And that's where, like you you really start to define your habits at that age. And that was also kind of like a big moment.

I realized for me was like how I learned to cope with that anxiety, depression or panic was how I implemented for years. And it was a lot of fucking unlearning and that I probably spent more money on learning unhealthy habits on coping than I did on seeking treatment. So for, you know, like the audience, I would say, you know, focus on developing those healthy coping mechanisms now because it's like trying to start to run marathons. When you're thirty eight, your knees are just like, honey, we never did this.

We're never going to don't even fucking try like that earlier. You can start those good habits the more your body will. Thank you as you get older. So a couple things. The two part question just to actually talk about what does work for you and then somebody that's sitting here listening, that's like, OK, yes. I rather you say I resonate with I have I have an anxiety, I have depression. I have panic attacks. Where do I start?

And again, like you said, everybody's different. But like, what is your cat? Like I said, I wish I could stay here and be like, you guys. Everyone get on like three hundred milligrams. And it's like, no, it's not how that fucking works. Like, we know, yeah, we have a huge pharma problem, like that's another fucking episode. So don't get me started on that. Like I know we will be.

Damn it. I tried to do it too. We got all we got. He fobbed off about Big Pharma that I started going off like we need to a daily podcast. So I bought dope sick the next day. I like Chris everyday. Yeah. Yeah. But that's like that's fully so funny. You say there's a podcast about dating because like I feel like mental health is such a big fucking part of like dating and dating conversations. How could you date.

I want to talk about Big Farm on a first date. This Kalamazoo's like me and my partner that I'm with now, got drunk at an event and we literally were like taking shots. And I was like, OK, so I went to rehab once because I basically was abusing my Ativan medication and I am like severely fucked up and he was like shot. OK, I'm stepping back from it like it was the most freeing. Like I literally get a boner thinking about it right now.

That's right. I was like, OK, and I write about this should be a drinking game. Every time I say I wrote about this in the book, everyone take a shot, you'll be fucking wasted by now. But I wrote about in the book I say this with such adamant confidence that your relationship will never be as successful as it could be if you are not willing to talk about your own mental health. And that also goes for partners, whether it be listening or being accepting and talking about their mental health to it just it's never going to be.

It's like pain. Go to a therapist and then lying about it, it's like, why are we lying? Like, let's get to the real. And if you don't know, it's scary. Like if you're just dating someone new and you don't have a diagnosis or you've never gotten help, I totally understand why you're kind of like, let me put a lid on this crazy until it fucking explodes in their face. So for people that are listening, you know, like you said, where do you even start acceptance with ourselves, baby, is the first step.

I think that's also like a step. I don't know, I never did it. But it's really about knowing that it's OK to want help and knowing it's OK to not be OK and knowing that you're not going to lose your job and your friends and your loved one and like who you are just because you're accepting a part of yourself that you might have been like bumping up against for a really long time. So that is like my first step. And treatments, exercises that worked for me in the beginning stages was being creative.

So whether it be journaling or painting or fucking dancing or jumping on a goddamn trampoline or like, you know, something that was healthy and not banging it out or snorting it or, you know, like doing the unhealthy version of that, things like that in the beginning were just helpful in getting it out of my body because we were so much in our fashion. Baby, that fashion is. That muscle in Keesing, we carry so much trauma in our hips as women, as our shoulders, like the body mind connection is something I talk a lot about and write a lot about because there is such a relief.

And just saying, you know, a body, I'm going to give you forty five minutes every week in a therapist's office to just fucking be. I'm not going to hold anything. I'm not going to try and be strong, I'm just going to give myself.

That's the best fucking if you can give to yourself is to honor your body the way your body honors you and you are on meds as well. And you don't that if you don't want. I think, you know, the the only reason why I don't say specific things that I am on is because, number one, it changes all the time. And number two, I don't want people thinking like, oh, you know, if she's on Lexapro, say, like, I should go ask my doctor for Lexapro because I don't think, like, bodies and brains work the same way.

There are very, like standard SSRI and certain types of medications we put people on. But for me, it's like I don't only have these anxiety disorders, but I also live with chronic pain. I also have fibroids and shitty periods. And like there's other medications in the mix that sure, people freak out when they first get prescribed something and they Google it and it will say, you know, this medication is often used for seizures. And what we find is that a lot of medications that Big Pharma originally was pushing for a certain thing had a side effect of mood stabilization.

So now they prescribe anti seizure medications for anxiety disorders and people will see that and be like that makes no fucking sense. Why am I taking these med? I'm only reading terrible things every time I Google it. I'm just not going to do it. And it's like, man, it's not helpful for anyone. What you really should focus on is finding a psychiatrist, which is the type of doctor that actually can prescribe medication, finding a psychiatrist you fucking like and can connect with and actually asks you about your life, because so many people think of psychiatrist as just the prescription writer and they don't know anything about you.

They have a twenty minute appointment. It's like two hundred fifty dollars and it's so expensive and inaccessible and you're just like, well I'm just grateful to be getting help. It's like, no bitch, I'm paying for this time. I want you to listen to my life and my symptoms. It's up to them to help you. Yeah. It's really like they need to we need to change whole system. Don't get me started. I also think when you publicize what type of medications you use as a public figure or just the normal everyday person, everybody tells you their opinions of it.

And it's really open for discussion. And I like that you really hammer home that everything is really one size fits ones. Just because something works for me doesn't mean I'm saying you should do it. And so I like that you sort of start with just like general coping mechanisms and whatever kind of medication you take is what's right for you this week. Yeah, and I actually made a video for BuzzFeed that went viral, which is why I started my, like, public media journey into mental health advocacy was that I did a like a stop motion animation using all of the types of pills I'd ever been prescribed to tell my story.

So, you know, I actually got pills made and press that were like Lorazepam or like Valium or Xanax. And I told stories through those types of medications and the comment section, you know, as widely and positively received that the video was that whole comment section became people talking about prescription pills and it's terrible for you or that thing killed my sister. And, you know, I've been on this tweet and it's like we're not here to make people more afraid than they already are about getting help, right?

Yeah. I just get the help. Just go see a doctor. Well, it wasn't like we obviously have a problem in this country, the meds. And but at the same time, I want people to believe in medicine. So I. I want to I'm glad that you advocate for it because. Yeah, you don't just meditate it all the way sometimes. Well, like wired and built differently. And we're so lucky to have one thing we wouldn't have we wouldn't have probably have if we all had one fucking prescription and one if we could all just meditate our problems away.

And like by all means, some people fucking swear by that place. I don't have time to go sit in the mountains and meditate for nine hours. That's not fulfilling for me. That doesn't like get me going and I can't get Instagram in the mountains. So that's all for me, at least for me. Like, I don't I would never venture to say I suffer from any type of anxiety disorder when I'm feeling anxious. I'm like, actually, I'd like to just I'd like to identify it immediately.

Right. It really does help me. I like to smoke a little weed and just make notes in my phone. And I just like I just write it all out. I tend to be like a little more I'm harder on myself, but more clear when I smoke. And I just I feel like I see things a little differently. And it just it helps me to just here's the problem. Let's write about it. And then I feel a lot better at least that I know what the issue is.

Yeah, huge. We'd advocate for mental health, huge for chronic pain, like I am all gung ho about. Do what makes you feel good as long as it's manageable. Because I when I did do my little Sikeston Mental Health Rehab, there was someone there that was there for cannabis use and everyone was kind of like, that doesn't exist. You can't, like, smoke yourself into addiction. Like it's an addictive thing. He had used it as a coping mechanism for so much that he couldn't do anything without smoking.

Yeah, and so it's like, listen, addiction can apply to anything when it comes to terms of coping and like symptoms and usage and what we're, you know, doing to cover it. And I love, love, love that you said you name it like add that to the list of first steps into getting help is even just being honest with yourself.

And a lot of times that comes by verbalizing saying it to a friend, having accountability, just naming it. It doesn't have to make sense. You can say, I feel like it doesn't have to be a fucking word, but just naming it is such a beautiful thing. I love that you said that. And also the only times in my life where I felt like I was having panic attacks I'm going to die was when I had I'd like so much, much more.

So I just like we're all different. For me, it's the worst nights of my life. We're animals. So it's just like that's just that goes to show like I got these horror stories. It's like I wrote a know like we joked I was on a bike. You know, my friends were like, you wrote a suicide note. I was like, no, I wasn't. I thought I was going to die. I just thought I was dying.

I wrote the name of the guy that gave me the edible. And I was like, If you find me in my apartment, I was called my brother 12 times. It was like 2:00 in the morning. And I was like, if I wake up feeling like this, like my life is over. And I was just a so I was fine and I never done it again. It happened twice one time. I just I don't really because I just wanted a brownie.

I didn't know. And that was I was just like rocking back and forth like and on a vacation at this music festival. And it was so it's just like, yeah, it just but it goes to show that we're all wired differently. This thing that could be like literally would help someone else get totally save someone's life. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not I'm I'm mainlining edibles and I'm trying to take like three heads of a blunt and like journal in my girl you're talking to like I in that well in the culture.

And I'm glad it's changing. Like, I feel very lucky that we're getting to be living in the part of the time where, you know, not only are we destigmatizing and, you know, pushing for the social unrest, like, I love that the generation below us is so fucking smart. Like, I, I feel really lucky that I get to live in this time where I'm going to see so much change, including like we'd use like, fuck, don't let Big Pharma get a hold of it.

Oh my God, you back. Let's let's talk about panic attacks and attacks and then we will talk about dating, how your partner can help you and you can help your partner to to cope with these things. Yeah. So panic attacks is something again, if you would have told me two years ago that I could be speaking freely and openly about it, I would have believed you because even just thinking about it sometimes would trigger me into a panic attack.

And in the book, I call that the panic attack about the panic attack. And it's like that Spider-Man I where they're like, oh, yeah. And it's like that is the most commonly feared thing about panic attacks is once you have one, you know what that feels like and you're constantly in a state of anxiety, waiting, looking over your shoulder, assessing your. Yeah. Like even just saying at that emotion that it evokes. If you've had one, you fucking know that it is unlike anything you could ever explain to someone and wish that they could understand you, but also wish that they didn't because you don't want them to ever have experienced that, especially with someone you love.

I think we throw the term panic attack around a lot lately. I maybe you can explain like the difference between, like having a lot of anxiety and a diagnosed panic. Yes. So anxiety disorder will usually manifest as emotional. So it's usually in our head it's rumination. It's the stressed out feeling. It's very emotional. It's usually very internal. And panic attacks, anxiety attacks, panic disorder will materialize as physical. So that's when we get the sensation be on.

Just, you know, if you get butterflies in your stomach because you're nervous, that's OK. That's like anxiety that's supposed to happen. Your body is having a response to a stimulus that is telling your brain something is wrong. A panic attack often feels like it's coming out of nowhere, that it has no it has no Kabbalist. It manifests as your heart is beating, overly beating. You feel like you can't breathe. You feel like you're choking, you can't swallow, you're sweating.

A lot of times your extremities will go numb. So your body is producing this very physical response where, you know, there's disassociation, which is my scariest symptom, where it actually feels like you're outside of your own body, where you kind of feel like you're in The Truman Show. Either your reality doesn't feel real or you don't feel real. These are like these are way more specifically panic attack symptoms and problems. Whereas society, you know, I'll be standing in line and some girl be like, oh my God, this line is so long that I have a fucking panic attack.

And you're like, no, you're not, Melissa. You're just angry and stressed out. Not that I am any one to say whether or not someone is or isn't having a panic attack. But I will say you will fucking know usually if someone is having a panic attack because it becomes. Outside of their own control, which anxiety is very much about control and learning how to let go of that control a little bit, so panic attacks, some people can have one and you never have one again.

And you're like, what the fuck? That was really weird. And then if you usually have more than one, you you tend to be diagnosed with panic disorder, which then it becomes that thing of fearing the panic attack, fearing when is the next one going to hit. It's a very scary feeling. And it was something that I never truly, truly never thought I would be able to live with. And the fact that I'm like here still and managing them and knowing when one is coming, knowing how to see the signs, knowing what environments give me those feelings is a fucking miracle.

Like I cannot believe I am at that point today where I can sit here and talk about a panic attack. I'm so glad you are. Yeah. So what? Is there anything you can do in that moment. Yes. For yourself. And then let's say we'll talk about that. And then if you're having one or your friend or. Yeah.

So for me it was really about not letting my high anxiety kind of roll into a panic attack.

So it was finding a way to recognize it, name it, you know, calm it before it got to panic, attack central and recognizing, like, what stimulants would cause me to feel those symptoms. So sometimes it happens for people after exercising because exercise or sex even can produce those same symptoms. Your heart rate is really high. You're sweating, you're kind of out of your body. And then people would have panic attacks after sex or exercise. And then you associate that thing with negativity.

And so you don't do that thing. And we get really inside our heads and really inside our minds about the activity rather than the symptoms our bodies are producing. So fear panic attacks. I decided I was going to write down realistic things that, you know, my boyfriend could do to help me through a panic attack because he luckily has never had one. He doesn't he didn't really understand it. He Buganda's now you better believe it. But he was really clueless because he didn't know what to do.

He would touch me. I would say, don't touch me. Then I would say I need a hug. And he would try to hug me. I would say I'm hungry. I'm going to throw up. I my mouth is dry, but I can swallow water. Like, it was so confusing for him that I started to resent that he didn't automatically know how to take care of me the way maybe, you know, someone in my life who's been around that for so much longer did.

So I wrote this list. It went viral on Twitter, about fifteen realistic things you can help me through a panic attack doing. And it's everything from the most important thing, I think, on that list is listening to my needs without judgment. So you never want to probe, like, what's wrong, what's happening? Why are you feeling this way? Because chances are they don't know. It's really about how can I help and be right here in the moment with you without overstepping and also kind of panicking themselves.

Yeah. Are there some other things. Yeah, this was great. I thought I had a really, really special. Like I said, things will help for me. May Maryna help for you. For me, it's about reminding me that I've been through this before because the scariest thought that I have doing panic attacks is that this is going to last this way forever. It's like that, David, after dentist me and where he is like. That's that's how I felt when I was like when I had the edibles, it was like if I wake up and I feel like this tomorrow, that's a wrap.

I got to be in a padded room. Yeah, I hit a gravity bong once in college and was high for three days. And I was like, OK, on the fourth day I'm done, I'm going to kill myself. I can't be like this anymore. It was truly a nightmare. And so it's reminding that like this too shall pass. You have been through this a million times before. It's every single time you think it's going to be the one that locks you into a padded room.

It's not. And I found that because I get that derealization and that depersonalization symptom that my boyfriend reminding me stories about my life and just kind of repeating facts back to me about myself helps. Like he will say, you're Kelsi. We're here in front of Ralph's grocery store. You are loved. You are safe. He's even made me voice memos before where when I would have to fly without him, I could put my headphones in and he would be like, hey, you probably having a panic attack?

Aren't you listening? Devices like I love you. You're suddenly like, don't worry, you're going to get through it. Like it was things that I would have never thought about and actually like having a partner, being able to reflect, like your reality back to you rather than dealing with them alone. And, you know, I don't mean like you have to be in love in order to get over a disorder like that person can be a therapist.

That person could be your mom or your friend, your Murena, whatever. Yeah. Like, I was helping I was treating a foster dog to recognize my tics for anxiety, which is I would pull out my eyebrow and eyelash here. It's called trichotillomania. And I would sit there and when I would get stressed, I would start to pull my eyebrow hair out. And I was training my foster dog to alert me. When I start to do that, I got cry.

Really don't deserve dogs before. I don't. I'm like, but so those are some some things that I mean, when I say like having someone who can reflect your reality back to you, it's like, OK, you fucking high. And I am just curious about your relationship. You go out and divulge as much as you want. But, you know, I think that it's easy when you're in love to share these things with people. But like, when do you share that?

When you bring this stuff up? I'm sure that a lot of people feel like I don't want to scare someone and make them. I you know, I mean, fully I totally get that. Like, first of all, everyone has their shit. If it's not going to be like anxiety disorder or like something mental health related, I don't know. They are fucking crazy. Parents are fucking like herbicide uses. I know, like, everyone has something that I feel like it's going to be awful.

And then it's not because you care about the person. Right. So going in with the mentality of like nothing is to me undateable. Like I have my boundaries on except someone. It's like I'm perfect and have no problems. That's the undateable person. That's the fucking psychopath, like I said. Right. Yeah, exactly. So for me, I was in a position where when I did start dating my current partner, I had been through the system.

I wasn't managing it well by any means, but I definitely had the vocabulary to kind of talk about it. And I had the treatments and the I had the knowledge of what it was. I wasn't doing well with it. I was in one of the most anxious, panicky places in my life when I first met him. But I was lucky enough to know at least how to talk about it with him. And so for my my advice that I always give is as soon as you feel comfortable enough talking about it, I would talk about it with your partner because maybe you've been in a relationship for a long time and this is the first time you're thinking about seeking treatment and you really don't know.

And you you know, knowledge is power. And that's the whole reason why I wrote the book was really to give the reader confidence, to talk about their feelings and say, you know what, as soon as I am accepting, I don't have to like it. I just have to recognize it and I have to give it a thought. I don't have to give it a judgment, but I know that it's there. I would start talking about it because, again, it's going to be more helpful if you have a supportive partner.

And if you don't, if they judge you or they give you a hard time by your life is already hard enough. You don't need a fucking toxic person in your life. That's never going to change. You can't teach an old dog new tricks or whatever. People don't believe anxiety or panic and depression isn't real. Cut those motherfuckers every life we can date anybody. If it was just going to be service level nonsense, we'd all be along with everybody.

It was just like happiness all the time. That's what relationships are. Yeah, some fun. One thing we got, we got a message from a listener that she, her partner has more social anxiety and she's more of a social person that doesn't have that really. And so she was kind of wondering how to deal with that. And so feel free to touch on that when you, your partner, has the anxiety. Sure. And that was really important for me to include that kind of section in my book, because I knew that this was not only going to be for people who suffer themselves, but a tool guide tool kit for people who are like gave.

My partner says they've had this thing and I'm open to learning about it. So like no one, God bless you. Like we love people that like love people with mental health issues, like we stand in this house. The tip that I always give. First off, knowing that you will never be able to fix someone, you will never be able to be the thing or the person that makes them want to change and makes them want to get better and seek help and see, like you like leading a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it.

Right. I feel like we need to update that metaphor because I don't want don't be a horse yet. Yeah. Anyways, I just think about it. A contest for metaphor. Let me know because I could actually use that. No, I love this so much because there is this thing of like you're going to come along and save somebody and then they're going to be as soon as they make their life will change. And we try to save people.

Right. Somebody we care about. We want to help them. We want to see. And I've tried to and I got to tell you, it is just it's a it's a fool's errand. Oh, you're not going to be able to do it. See, that's a better metaphor. It's a fool's errand. Thank you. I never said that before. And where it came from. Really? Yeah. Oh yeah. It was fantastic. It sounds very, very intelligent.

It's in the lexicon. It's there in the lexicon so much of today. Ah, yes. Like save your moments. We've all had them. We've all seen people were like I've been through that before. And if you just do this, this and this, it's like the theme of the episode. What works for everyone is not going to work for everyone. So, you know, with partnership, I highly recommend couples therapy, if you can afford it, if you have access to it, especially if your partner is in those beginning stages of learning about their own, you know, feelings or diagnoses or emotions.

Sometimes you really do need that third party to look into the relationship, to see, you know, what our triggers may be. You have the partner to them. That won't help in moments of panic and anxiety. And how do you let that person know without it seeming offensive? It's like you almost are too helpful. I need you to be less helpful. And what do you mean? You know, it can get lost in translation and that's just going to cause more stress.

So I highly recommend if you you know, you can have a couples therapist that you both really like. And trust has been worked wonders for my partner and I. And then in the book, I also include some feeling she needs to look at facts and not feelings, because I am someone like I said, Leo and I wear my first gut reaction is to go to feeling I'm not like a logic's person. I react off my gut often on my body.

Right. We all know these people. They're us highly sensitive and my partner is not. He is like, well, let's write down the math. I'm not talking about the panic attacks like it does not exist. The limit does not exist.

So being able to know that you can't fix someone, get a couple of therapies if you can, and recognizing like your style of communication, whether it be someone you know, I love the five love languages, I love Enneagram tests, I love like that. And JP bullshit, like whether it is bullshit like Zodiac or not, not saying Zodiac is I fully obviously believe if it helps you, who fucking cares.

Like it's possible in fact to like if it helps you. I don't fucking care if you're like eating an orange once a day and you think that that keeps the doctor away or it's an apple. Metaphors are so outdated. We got to. But I feel like it's reading your book like and I'm not just saying that's like gas you up, but like it's knowing what your partner is going through. Because I dated someone that had a lot of trauma and it started to really come up when we started to get close.

And I had I was so ill equipped, I eventually did start going to therapy just a more so understand him and how to deal with him. He was just trying to figure his shit out the same time. I was like we were just it was so toxic and chaotic and because it was all coming up together and I just had no idea. And like, I know so much more now. And it was kind of a catalyst for even starting this podcast.

Like if you feel like if your partner has anxiety, they've expressed that to you, the first thing you do is run and get a book like yours so you can try to understand, you know, it doesn't need to if couples therapy, it's not affordable or whatever. It's just like at least getting some resource so you can understand them fully, even though they may understand themselves at that moment, because you're I think you're out of your league. You know, I think it'd be foolish to think that you can help.

And there and there and look at it. It's a real thing. I also like actually dated somebody with a lot of trauma. And I just thought, like, he seems fine, but like it would manifest in all the other ways. And I was so out of my league and trying to help him, I just was like, well, maybe like update your resume and get your new job, you know, fix this. And it's a gross thing to write.

Like, usually when you're in that early twenties, you're like you're both figuring your shit out and it's not, you know, wrong place, wrong time. It really just might be that you guys aren't compatible. And that's completely fine. And like I said the earlier, you recognize, I said, the more you're going to save yourself and that there's also free resources like, you know, if you don't have money to buy the book, go go on YouTube.

Go on the Internet is your friend finds a message boards like there's tons of couples with this thing, you can find fucking anything on the Internet. So like if you love the person enough, you will find a way to insert yourself in a way that is helpful. And like how that is might take a little bit to find out. But like is love, baby, OK, love ain't enough every day. Love isn't always enough. It's oh it's going to be strife.

It's going to be rocky. And knowing that that's not the end of your relationship is I think, vital for me to remind myself like I'm a very black and white thinker. I'm like, well, if he doesn't understand this, then like we clearly are right for each other and we should break up. And then my therapist is like, oh my God, Kelsie was about like breakfast sandwich. And I'm like, yeah. And I do think on the other side of the coin, sometimes it is the end of the relationship and that's fine too.

Sometimes we aren't equipped to help people. Sometimes we can't be in relationships until we go out and fix ourselves and sometimes it's healthy to walk away. That's a whole other podcast, but not told you only help so much. And you know, in my last year I dealt with this. I was never going to be enough to help him or fix him. You needed to go off and find somebody. You need a different partner. He just wants to be just better for him to find that and to do work on himself to get a gas mask on before you put the other gas mask on.

Gas mask, oxygen mask. Don't ask anyone, just a regular doctor, just on the well. And I think about the girl that she wants. She doesn't have any anxiety. She likes to socialize in her. I think it was just her boyfriend doesn't. And I guess what I would say there is like if you really care about the person, that's not a deal breaker, but hopefully he's working on himself. So I guess that's the only thing that would be.

Yeah, that's the first step that he is aware that what he has going on is affecting the relationship. So it's like, yes, he's doing the work. She should respect that. And maybe she needs to recognize it when it's happening and she needs to make plans with her girlfriends more and deal with a partner. But I think for her, my question would be, I don't know the back story, but is he working on this or is he just like, I'm anxious, I'm not going out tonight?

Sorry we had planned you're on your own, you know, like gaslighting. You like I have a mental illness and it's like, well, you're not fucking doing it. Like, you need to know your boundaries, too, as a partner. Like, I'm willing to show up to this. And if you show up to this, like, whew, everything's copasetic. If not like, yeah, fucking it's totally fine to walk away. It's only knowing your limits.

And we did an episode about should you get back with your ex. And one of the things you talked about was evaluating how the things changed that were a problem. And I think that you can split up and work on yourselves and get back together if you really change the brain changes. We know that scientifically it's called neuroplasticity. Your brain has to absolutely change. And that's the best use of the fucking day, baby. Is that like it'll change?

No one's ever stuck the way that you are. And if they are, it's because they're unwilling to change. Right. The doctor. Yeah, I know. Like, when you're in a lot of offices, you tend to pick up on a couple buzzwords. Yeah, we wanted just a couple of short topics to kind of wrap up with. We want to talk about if you're if you're open to it, that you don't drink now. Right.

And then that decision every day about yeah, I get it. I've done a ton of podcasts on, like just sobriety in general. And I have a chapter in the book all about like alcohol use, drugs, Anxiety, Sun, Scarry's, The Weekend Blues. Like, Baby, I know exactly what you're fucking talking about. Or for three days I'd be like I myself, I'm never doing this again. And then I drank the very next day and it was a cycle for many, many years.

And it is the best thing I've ever fucking done in my life. And absolutely nothing has changed. And absolutely not a single person gave a fuck and I thought I was going to be the dead. Like either parade. I would be like, she is done or people are gonna be like, she's no fun anymore. Nobody gave a fuck. Nobody cares. It's never an issue. It's fully just been like, amazing for me. And I highly recommend people to do was what I call like a mindful drinking journal.

And just to, like, percolate on those feelings of if your brain is constantly telling you something, you should listen. You know, like if your body is constantly like, you really should cut back on the drinking. We all done that. But mindful drinking journal like how much have you drank? Stop in between each drink. Write how you're feeling. Right. What motivated you to have that kind of drink? Where are you. Why are you there.

Like why are you drinking that thing. What happened today. You know, like that also helped me. That was the thing that I did kind of like the last week I ever drank was I stopped and took notes after every drink I had. And I was like, oh yeah, I'm just fucking I had been done for so long and was just still drinking. And some people can drink and live and be amazing and like more to them. Just for me personally and usually for a lot of people who do end up quitting, it's the best thing that ever happened to them.

I believe it. I mean, I drink so much less than I used to, and I don't know that that day could come. But with light arms, we're we're here for. Yes. And no one's going to care. I just love that you said that. It's so funny. I thought people are going to have this. Prayed or just like showing you and care, no one give a shit in 48 hours or just find other things to do, you know, and so many we have so many friends that don't drink.

Yeah. And you'll find people like like like minded people. Yeah. Did you how long have you been sober. Dude, it's so funny you ask me that. I don't know, over 500 days like I think I had a year. I was like I did it. And I know that's a thing like in AA where they're like, I have six thousand twenty four hours, two hundred minutes and something I don't know, like it feels like forever.

And also yesterday. OK, yeah. We just want to go General. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Almost two years. 600 minutes. Congratulations. And how do you feel that it's like how do your anxiety. Oh my God. I see a lot. Yes. Like I would spend days ruminating over just dumb shit. My body physically felt like shaking like a cold cat, like I just felt like a homeless cat that was always cold all the time and like throwing up.

And my mind wasn't thinking clear. I wasn't as sharp as I was. I wasn't as funny as I could be, which is the opposite of what I thought. I thought drinking funny. And you're in on it. It was so untrue. And like, I was able to cut out a lot of toxic relationships, too, when I quit drinking, because usually it was the people that were also miserable and wanted just someone to drink with that I was hanging out with.

And it just naturally happened that way. And quitting was relatively easy for me. I come from a line of addiction and I you know, I've seen people who really struggle with it. But for me, the first two weeks are the hardest thing in my life. And then after that, it was like I had quit drinking forever. It was like of the hardest fucking thing. And then I live fully. I feel like I'm showing up to life, you know, I love it.

Yeah, I love this. And now we've we've told people we had Nikki Glaser on and she talks about her journey. And she is a book she recommends and Chrissy Teigen, she is her book When Like a woman or whatever. And now yours, too. It's part of your book. So we just love giving people these resources. We still drink. We're not. It's just like it's your choice. But we are giving you guys the resources and there are so many out there.

You know, what helped me was that we did a couple of recordings. We didn't release podcast episodes drunk, but I have recorded myself when I'm drunk. You do you think that you're funny? You're not. I thought that I was funny. I thought no one could tell how drunk I was. Untrue. With the rise of social media. That's the other thing is I'm like I just waiting to end up on some front page of something, doing something fucking down when I'm drunk.

And like, if that's what needed to happen for me to hit rock bottom, Lord Lord knows I'm glad I did it.

This is the real story, guys. Gals canceled. If you dive deeply into the Internet, you will find them. Yeah, we just wanted to wrap it up with, like, if you have anything to say, we've touched on covid a little bit. I mean, just people probably that they're at an all time high when it comes to whether it's diagnosed or chronic or not. Just general anxiety, sadness, you know. Do you speak on this at all?

Yeah, like follow that feeling like we are going through a collective trauma worldwide right now and like recognize that this is not fucking normal and that this is traumatic and our lives are different and people's lives are different. Money is different. Everything is fucking different. And like giving yourself that grace to be like, you know, just because you're struggling right now doesn't mean you have anxiety disorder. But you follow that feeling. And, you know, I constantly this isn't like sponsored, but I use better help, which is an online therapy app, which is something you can do during the pandemic.

And I actually found that I love doing it online rather than in an office, not only because everything else sucks, but I didn't realize I needed to be in the comfort of my own home. I needed to be in like sweatpants, eating cookies, like, you know, with the computer like this close to my face, like that changed therapy for me because I was so much more comfortable. So try on my therapy. I love your body moving.

Even if it's like getting a standing mat or like a yoga ball. Keep that baby. I'm going to take a walk. I just I guess you can't take a walk. You just have to do some jumping jacks and sit back down for the next week. Exactly. I'm like going to get a little pedal under my my desk, but I love yourself about like flow through it, go through it, acknowledge you like this sucks. It fucking sucks.

Take a walk, eat healthy. Like I feel like a different person wanted a slice of pizza versus like a salad. Like I feel physically different. Both those things are good. Got it. Like Yeah. You know, follow it, follow what you have to do. Sometimes you need cheese pizza, sometimes you do, even if you're lactose intolerant, sometimes you just eat it but sometimes you don't. Time yeah. Sometimes they'll eat cheese and feel sad like my mike actually does.

Sometimes I have eggs together. She can't do it. I was at this. There was a point in my life I was like, if I wake up in the first thing I'm big on the first thing you put your body in the line. I think you have a clean slate. And like what? It always has to be fruit or something healthy. A couple of times I just had cheese and eggs first thing and then I was like depressed.

I'm telling you, my gut speaks to me. It's weird, you know, I love that documentary. I'll have a meal and be like, why am I? Yeah, I did it fully as our second brain, they call it the second brain, which is funny because it technically should be the first brain, because it was the first thing that was developed in like mitochondria was a digestive system, not a fucking brain. But I digress. Kelly, you're a doctor.

You're not a doctor. I do. You talk about Dylan covid. And, you know, I think your advice was great. If you have anything else, listen to your podcast, because it's great. That's my read your book. Yeah, read my book. My podcast. But also, you guys are doing a wonderful what is it? Confidentially, you idiot. I put so much energy and I didn't like helping our guys. And just like going I said the wrong name of your business.

I myself truly couldn't care less. I'm so happy to just be here. But it's confidently and you can listen and all that. This is a good place for you to tell everybody they can find you obviously. Book, website, podcasts, Instagram everywhere. Yeah, I, Killzone, Derren, all the things and you know check out don't fucking panic. It's online on Amazon or you can buy it on that catalog. OK, amazing. Thank you.

Thank you so much for taking the time. I'm going to bother you now that I have your emails. Free will confidentially. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well thank you so much. Thank you. Bye.

And you guys know where to find us girls. Got E podcast dotcom girls got a podcast on Instagram. Ash has Raina Greenberg on Instagram. Girls in our score got it on Twitter and YouTube. Dotcom girl's got to eat and will see you next week. All right, guys, have a good week. I.