One more point I would like to say just before we start, start, start that I do believe you lied about not knowing who I was before.

I mean, here's thing. I haven't seen your show.

What's one? What's one? I couldn't tell you. I'm so sorry.

You really have not seen of mine.

I couldn't tell you because I do want my coffee with my hair, and I. I wouldn't mind. I've definitely slept worse. Really.

Yeah. So I hadn't seen any other shows. And when I received the communication, why did you respond to my DM at all.

Because you weren't following me.

God. Why.

Like what was it that I mean you check your DMS once a day. Once a week.

I actually check my DMS pretty often because I'm more often than not, I'm getting people reaching out to me from the innocence community or like, for instance, next week I'm going to be taking part of this death row like panel thing where like, I don't know if you knew this, but like Trump is accelerating a lot of federal executions right now. Like before he leaves office, he's trying to, like, get a bunch of people executed because he doesn't think the next administration is going to follow through.

And anyway, I'm going to be taking the only reason I'm taking part of this panel on is because people reached out to me and said, hey, we're trying to get the word out about this guy is about to be executed. He did a horrible crime, but he was 19 years old. And like we're trying to, you know, even if he spends the rest of his life in prison, like, let's try to save his life, what's the difference from prison and jail?

So jail is where you go pre conviction. So it's where you're held while people are trying to figure out what the hell to do with you. And then once you're convicted, you are convicted to either a maximum security prison, minimum security prison, or a vast array of different kinds of prisons that you can be sent to. And prison is where you go to stay and serve your sentence. So and then in Italy, it's different because, I mean, I don't even actually know if they have a difference between jail and prison.

They probably do for men, but for women, just because women are not the people who are usually going to prison, we're a much smaller portion of the population. We're basically being sent to the extra facilities that were originally meant for men and they're just not equipped for us.

And was yours was all women. Yes.

Yeah. I mean, well, so my portion of the prison, so like the whole prison complex had of facility for men, but it was on the other side of like this big open field. And what would happen is like women would sort of develop relationships with men across that bridge by, like, waving towels through the bar windows and fighting how many a time they would, like, communicate with lighters.

They would literally be like doing like a Morse code with lighters.

Well, yeah, just to, like, have a connection with fantasize about dating a guy in prison because you know where he is and you can cheat on you. That's a whole thing. That's for when I'm on your apartment.

So it's obviously impossible to know where to start, especially with my brain. But like, if you were me, what would you want my first question to be? Because, like, you go in interviews and everything, like you've just had to answer. So I don't want to ask you anything you've already been asked because I appreciate that.

No, I appreciate that. Because that's something that I as an interviewer also try to do. I whenever I talk to someone, I try to go and see whatever interviews they've already done and like see what have they been asked a million times. I'm going to veer very far away from actual journalism. Right. I mean, the thing that, like people never ask me about is or even like don't really ask me seriously about they'll be like, what are you doing today?

But it's like I'm actually doing a lot of stuff today.

So you're doing now, cop Yeah. Just like all of the work that I'm doing with my my husband Chris and here who is my nemesis.

And I you know, I'm a lot of the work that I do is super informed by everything that I went through. But it's this ongoing battle of trying to not only, like, make the best of a bad situation and just like take what I've learned and like put it to a good cause, but also to, like, just be my own person in a world that wants me to be something I'm not.

To talk about your process of getting deciding what to wear on camera. Well, for you in the documentary. Someone was like, that was Amanda's documentary, the one where you're in the pink shirt Botnick shirt. Yes. And they were like, that was Amanda's side of the story. Like, I don't know how that happened, but was like that was like her documentary. Oh, cool. She, like, made her own to set the record straight.

And I was like, OK, cool. And then I was like, oh wow.

But it's so it felt very. Fair, yeah, no, I mean, I definitely like it was an embarrassing in many ways for me.

I mean, my biggest wrong with it as well as they say in the industry, like they can't claim journalistic integrity if they're paying the people that say it, like they were not paying women for their work as well. They didn't pay anyone. So it should be fair. Did they pay the journalist, Nick? I didn't I was a I understood that no one was. I will stop the podcast right now. I know.

I don't think they paid anyone who was on camera, but everyone I know saw it. So no, like, the way that it was approached to me and like I completely understood was for the sake of it not being an Amanda Knox.

I just want to talk about your shirt. Oh, my shirt. Oh, OK. I listen to you. And I was like, she's not wearing makeup. She's not. She's wearing a pink shirt. She can't wear anything but this. Yeah, so the decision of what to wear on camera, interestingly, is something you have to have anxiety about. But also at the at the same time, it was like a last minute thing, like literally my best friend was like bringing me to the weird cold warehouse where they had that, like, gorgeous backdrop.

That's like actually where you shot it, where it was shot. Yeah, yeah. It was like in a warehouse they a location for you.

And and I don't know, I must have been wearing like something with a collar or something. And they were like, we just need to keep it simple.

We need to like have people be just looking at your face and not I remember you wearing a strapless bra. Is this a banjo situation? Like, it's just that's always my first, second and third. But like you, bra drops.

God, was that low? You were in prison.

Yeah, I sort of think they were. They were is like a bra shop or you'd have like, clear a little piece of tape, which it's clear is not clear. If you would see my last special, you would know I did a whole joke about clear brush. So you're not a fan. And I was.

That makes me like, all right, we we made sure to watch a special before we came.

But you saw which you know, you did know I saw the one with the sex doll.

All we want to watch about 10 minutes of clips. And then you had had enough.

Well, they were like, she's kind of funny. I have lots of regrets about speaking of regrets. How was Italy? That's one, by the way. So Strong is one of my best friend.

She's on SNL and she's there's so many people that are fascinated with you. And I have this theory I'm working on that you.

Are a lot of the people that were in their thirties when this rigamarole happened to you? Grew up on Amanda Chase from my so-called life. Lisa Loeb stay, which I sang to you while making eye contact with you last night whilst I show you last night Allison Williams.

Alison Brie, I went to high school with her. That the girl everyone wanted, the enigma, the enigmatic, gorgeous. I know, I don't I mean, it's I'm not happy about it. The projection machine and I remember when this was all happening, I was like at like trying to get agents or I thought going to parties would get you jobs or something.

And so I would go to these like parties, like when I was like twenty two in Hollywood trying to get someone to cast me, I didn't know how it worked. And I thought, well someone can I blow someone for a job like I didn't know how to do it and. I heard people talking about you and it was a bunch of guys just being like, she's legit, gorgeous. And just being like talking about you, you, me, I thought when you were telling me about this other we're talking about, you know, station.

Now, this is the first time I thought your I thought your really also it wasn't gorgeous back then. No, I wasn't like so this is the thing. I'm like always like, you know, this is gorgeous now. OK, well, love you.

Right. Right. Answer.

But you're way hotter right now than was found years ago.

You're OK. But at the time like this is this is also the bizarre thing to me. Like, OK, people made a big deal about like Foxy Knoxy and like she's the girl that everyone wants.

And it's like, if your name rhyme with Foxy, would this be as big of a story? No. And so, again, like at the time, that was not me. Like, I was not walking around the world being like, oh, I'm the prettiest girl in the room like that. That never occurred to me. And also I was never treated that way.

You're the prettiest, but also the most stigmatic. And like also that's weird to me.

Your eyebrows, your eyebrows or problem. Sorry, I'm I'm texting a couple. Neuroscientist's asking them why our brains love a rhyme. Foxy Knoxy. Why do it. Like why is that click bait. Why does the why are the tabloids love that. And did it rhyme in Italian.

So in Italian they what they would say like they would translate Foxy Knoxy into cut diva which means evil, evil fox. And so like it always translate like the translation sort of twisted into like the the vault before by the cunning, you know, the cunning fox. So the so the girl who is like a master manipulator. I was not an enigmatic person, I think I mean, we've spent a few days together and it's like I'm I'm a very open book a lot.

I'm I'm alive. But I'm also like I'm just kind of here and I've always just been kind of here. And when I was in Perugia, like, I was very openly, like just wearing boy clothes all the time.

And you look like teaching things well and then like, you know, doing yoga and playing guitar.

And like, I there was nothing I was like everyone was like she didn't react the way I wanted her to write.

The the beautiful girl didn't grieve the way I wanted her to grieve, even though I know nothing about the situation.

And yes. And that's and this was also filtered primarily through the Italian media, first and foremost, which was women are hysterical. And here I am.

I Silvio Berlusconi at the time. Yes. Run by Silvio Berlusconi. One hundred percent plug by accident.

Bunga, bunga, bunga bunga.

I just happen to this is such an interesting confluence and I feel so lucky that the universe is ending the show like that, learning about how the television airwaves are owned by the same person that runs the government and how women are portrayed in particular by that particular person.

And it's a business news as a business news as a business. Fake news, fake news was a big thing. Like I'm surprised that more people haven't made the connection between Berlusconi and Trump because they're echoes of each other.

No, I mean, they're not only friends, but it's he wrote I mean, Putin kind of wrote the playbook, but then Berlusconi kind of wrote the playbook for Trump.

And like, Putin does it in his in a different way. Like Berlusconi. Yeah, like, exactly. But like, that's my favorite. But he's also, like, used to be Secret Service and like he's a military guy.

Meanwhile, Berlusconi and Trump are both entertainers.

Yeah, they're entertaining.

Berlusconi was a singer. And we forget that Trump was the biggest television star in America at the time. The Apprentice was the biggest show on TV. We forget it. He didn't show up to the debates, remember, and they moved the debates or something for him. He just knows how to. I have a whole I know we got the whole thing about this the other night, Chris, that I think he misspells his tweets on purpose.

I think everything is like so calcu like he just he reads an eighth grade level.

What I also think he reads Robert Greene. I also think he reads, do you think he reads them?

But why do I have Amanda Knox on the podcast?

And we're talking about Donald Trump? Actually, this is why he's dis invited by this invitation.

This is my fucking talking about him. It's unreal. Yeah, shame on that. We don't he's after you. You've had enough Shayma. Thanks. Well, I don't know.

I mean, you're abrasives. I've never had braces. That's I see. That's like I've also never had uneven boobs.

I was actually afraid to bring that up. I know, but but but yesterday that she was afraid, but what if you heard me?

What if you're on a little bit of a piglet? But here's the thing.

Even at the time in Perugia, I've always had a but that didn't fit my body. And like my butt crack would be like coming out to the Natasha Lázaro.

Esther Povitsky there. What's your your German. German? Yeah. See, it's why you should have everything hip's.

You should have just said that I wanted you to feel like I have German ancestry. I don't want to tell you we can see horrible things. I'd like to do cartwheels now truly.

I mean even just like talking to my oma about like her. What's olma is grandma. Grandma. Yeah. My Oma like her mom had a bomb drop on her and then her own mother or her own grandmother who took care of her afterward tried to drown her in a bathtub like my Oma talks about, like these tragic things that happened in her life, like, oh yeah, you know, whatever, you know, whatever. And then like for me, I get deer in headlights syndrome where like something like I've never had anything bad happen to me until the bad thing happened to me.

And I was like, I could not process. And so I just sort of did what I don't even know. You did well indeed.

And indeed, it depends on who says what I did. What about because like who remembers what I did? Who thinks they saw what I did? People didn't see me cry or they did see me cry. They forgot if they saw me cry. They thought it was suspicious, if they saw me cry. Like, I honestly think that a ton of confirmation bias goes into all of this because people just, again, become a perfect test. Exactly.

And I also we I'm so impressed that we haven't said we've talked about this the other day. We haven't really done that yet. Which one said like and we've already talked about this, you know, that I remember when I was like, let's not do the rehashing how we've had slumber parties.

I would my dog, Frank, who I think, you know, is my world. Yeah, I'm sorry. She's right there when you can hear you.

When he went cut to three tendons and three arteries and there was just blood it when you see blood, did you see blood? No.

Whoa. What? I didn't know that. People don't know that, you know that now, Emily. I don't know. Do you know that, Chris? So there was life. So I like I like here's what I saw in my bathroom. There were like three shit. There were three spots of blood in the sink, three spots of blood. And then like there was shit in the other bathroom, the documentary. And so, like I and then then there was really more disturbing in an odd way.

And actually there was like a like a dark splotch, which of something that turned out like that turned out to be blood on the bath mat. But again, it wasn't like your dog. I saw that video where there's like fucking blood everywhere. And it's like I saw if I showed a man a video of my dog bleeding, which I put on mainstream stories for all you guys, because I will stop at nothing to get attention and opposite of you.

And you started crying. I mean, that eight a.m. this morning, yeah, no, I've seen a cry. Frank made her cry so and I and my instinct was to video it. How fucked up is that? So here's here's what that Chris, would that have been exploitative?

Well, did you get her consent? I would have done it. And then I would have said, can I put this in the podcast?

It's like post facto consent. Yeah, I what I do is I just take footage in B roll in case.

Sure. So here's the fucked up thing. I like to have options.

As you may have noticed, I didn't see a thing about like I didn't see Meredith's body. I didn't see into her room where the whole, like, blood everywhere, like I never saw any of that.

And then in prison, like after I'd been there a while, my lawyer comes in and he's like, hey, I just need to, like, walk you through a little bit of, like, the autopsy photos so you can, like, point me out like not the autopsy photos, like the crime scene photos. So you can tell me, like, if you've seen this before, this before. And so I was like, OK. And so he's like flipping through these photos and.

And then, like one photo is just like Meredith and and I lost it because I had not seen her yet, like I hadn't seen her with her wound and I lost it. And like, I was in hysterics and my lawyer was like, oh, my God. And then I like they had to take me out. And then the warden was like, what, what? What is wrong with you? And I was like, they showed me her body.

And she was like, you've seen her body before.

And I was like, no, I haven't I have not seen that. I did not know. And like.

Anyway, like it's just like the things that people assumed about how my reaction should be based upon what they thought I knew like.

Anyway, I'm so sorry to make you have to talk about it. I mean, I brought you here to talk about.

I mean, no, I'm I'm really happy that you brought me here you to be done with this.

Well, I'm done. I'm born. I mean, like it's just like I. I just think of. So there's so many more interesting things about you. But I feel like in some way you've been, like, chosen to reveal something.

You're not the first person who said that to me. Well, for now, I'm going to.

Well, I have changed a business model that was changed by Joe Rogan. First, he's smiling here.

He knows that you love it.

Like he's just like I love it's like I be like when he met me, I always wanted a brother which is fucking beat the fuck out of me.

Yeah. He met me and he gave me back rubs and recited poetry to me. He met you and he was like, yeah, I love it.

I love it. I love it. I don't feel like a girl around like when I don't feel like people treat me with kid gloves, which it was so interesting.

Ah. Interaction, so IDM do and I was like it was like a just like a Hail Mary, I just was like because on this podcast I only wanted to I cannot pretend to be interested in people. I just I truly can't. And I don't have people on that.

I'm going to just be like, hey, so that was weird.

Like I was like Tourette's or something. And I felt a little. Did you feel wary of me?

No, because I felt like we were like you were like, here's idem, dude. You're like, here's my email. And I was like, great, here's my the chain. And then we were on email and then I was like, can I ask her for her number. Ditech like we were all very and now that I know you, I think that's just your demeanor. You're just have boundaries and your secure attachment strategy style. Well, it's actually literally because I'm terrible at answering my phone, and so I'm afraid of giving people my phone number because, OK, so here's the one sort of like me being terrified of the world is like I actually don't like answering my phone.

I don't like it when people call me and I don't recognize the number because I don't because I've literally been put on the spot by, like tabloid journalists who've somehow found my number and they call me and they're like, can you like I want a statement right now about this like thing? And I'm like and like I just it feels very aggressive, whereas it's like I know that like if I receive an email from you, I can, like, absorb the fact that you're even talking to me and then I can respond.

Who's the most the closest person to your situation in terms of walk down the street and everyone is like half sympathy.

Half or half. You never know.

You never know. I was talking to my friend Nicky on the way over and I was asking her, she's my smartest friend from college. I said, who's like click bait tantamount to Amanda Knox. Like, who's the that? I was like, is it Monica Lewinsky? Is that the closest person in terms of.

I think so. He said she said, what about Anna Nicole?

That's interesting. Who's Mary Kay Letourneau?

Mary Kay Letourneau had. Is that the woman who had sex with her student?

Yeah, that's that's should they're guilty. Come with all these allegories as they all did something. They those are they're guilty. I'm like, take Lorena Bobbitt, for instance.

So there's no she's an interesting case because the domestic violence she suffered was erased and the penis chopping was the only thing anyone talked about. But that doesn't that event doesn't make sense without the context of, like, years of abuse.

That's every man's greatest fear. Right.

So to me, she still did something and it did nothing. So the parallel breaks occur to me.

Amanda. The most interesting part of this is like your if you had watched my whole special not just clips like Seattle, you're crafty, lady, I think that it's like and I don't I don't mean to get into men versus women.

I think I have it's women and women, too. I think a lot of people's worst fear is the we all know women's power. Not I'm not going to say psychic because that's clairvoyant, intuitive, whatever ability to manipulate. That's why there's no female magicians, because it's not funny. Right. It's like when a guy does scary, like, wow. And when a girl when a woman does it, we're like, oh, like I knew it, you know.

So I guess you're not supposed to trick me. You're supposed to be in service of me.

I already am. Anne Boleyn. I'm sure you're already have a power. You already know something I don't know. And you're making me paranoid and I can't handle it. Your inner power. I don't know what you're thinking. I can't read your mind, but you can read mine. And I think there's a little of that with you.

I could see that because I do I do feel like I tend to enter into a room and immediately get a read on even just like not including me, but like hierarchies in the room. And I'm always drawn to the person who I feel like doesn't have as much hierarchy, which usually, well, like underdog but or literally dogs.

By the way, this literally children this is and if you give me permission I will show this is dogs are know everything. And I really want you to meet my horse and to video it because who the dog goes.

If a dog goes to you, you're you're clear. You're good. No joke. I've had guys come over and the dogs like absolutely not. And my dog, Mona, who is my little psychic, which. I mean, killed some blood vessels in your legs. Yes, I could not like I had the like, oh, OK, here's my leg coming back to life. I'm dogs.

This was like a pig pile, a pyramid on top of you.

But I'm just, like, willing to be a dog with a dog. Like, the minute I saw her, I was like, oh, this dog wants to, like, be chased around the yard.

I don't know who you are. Also, you don't care. Kids and dogs have no idea. And it's really nice because it just means that I can sort of I I am good at recognizing other people's emotions. I like to be a listener, like even just a physical listener, like I've been listening. I don't know if you've noticed. I've been listening a lot to you over the past two days. That's unfortunate, but no, not in a bad way, but because, like, I see that you have a lot to give.

And so, like, I want to be a receptacle for you. And that's like something that I think that a lot of women do is like we are paying attention to what people need. And so then we try to like fill that space and be the space that people need.

And I'm we're designed to sort of I mean, it's I think your husband, Dave, like these are you know, I think we're evolving towards something that's more harmonious and kind of copasetic with men and women. But we're kind of designed to be the women work together like an octopus in the kitchen and with the kids and everyone's breastfeeding everybody else's babies. And everyone's the answer.

And this is and that's why we have that intuitive power, because we're constantly communicating that all one organism.

Yeah. And this sort of next generation of super evolved men are starting to kind of lean into their, quote, unquote, feminine qualities. And it's starting to feel a little.

Well, this is why I love my relationship with Chris, because, like with him, I have found an ability to assert myself that I've never had in a relationship or.

Guys, look, it's our first. Promote add. Isn't that fun? It's so fun, I'm having so much fun right now.

Very on trend with the with the you have to listen to this if you're listening on audio because you can see Benton's apartment.

You can see yeah.

You can see part of my kitchen is also shinier than me. Could it be because of the daily harvest you're consuming?

I mean, I am consuming a lot of it.

Let me just tell you, I have my favorites right down here holding up boxes of daily are looking at my phone.

Let's see if I have any. I love these things. They have so many new things to look. I have never had the oats before.

I've never had like the oatmeal that my favorite. Those bites, what are they? The little protein, the little bites to. And they love the in the winter. Look at my gross finger. Oh look. Are you guys glad I'm doing this from all. You can see my mangled finger.

I'm holding it up to the camera flatbreads. Did you know that? No, I cook them right here in my little toaster oven that you can see if you're watching tonight, if you love them. But there's also no my favorite is that chocolate mocha smoothie with kale in it. But there's also something I had when I was sick over the holiday. It was like an ice cream gal.

It was like a spa. I can't even explain what it was like. It's like it's like ice cream, but it's almost like soft serve ice cream.

So good. So soft. Right away. Your husband give away. Oh, driving me nuts and they're all healthy.

That's the cool thing about harvest. And everything is like healthy. Good for you. Organic vegetables, they come right to your door.

They really come in. This is a good New Year's resolution because can I tell you something, actually. Oh, look at him holding up his box.

That's so cute.

So they sent to my door, inflated it stayed cool all day when I got home and it was just filled with treats.

Were flying in the background. Huh. That's Amanda.

Certainly for all of the poor people. You do.

So you guys, I'm just telling you, everyone's busy. I understand. But Daily Harvest, I cannot tell you how big of a deal is to just go like I have no time to eat lunch. I'm going to eat this bowl of stuff and I know all of it. Get my everything in is good. I don't have to look at the label. I don't have to feel guilty about it. I don't feel shame. And then I don't have to do math later.

Like, OK, I had a little bit of I didn't see now and then for dinner. I don't know what to eat because I didn't eat crappy all day. Like it's just like it's just such a staple. It just like a game changer.

I feel like let me just tell you, I wake up and I have my latte, I had my oatmeal, I have a flatbread for lunch and there's no dishes. And that's what I'm really into. We got to be using these remotes to have you cooking these products and proving it. I will. I mean, I will. I'll bring this up remotely with Benton at home using the product and I'm in the studio.

I literally obsessed these foods. They're delicious. And the cool thing is there's like they don't use, like, preservatives or added sugars or anything.

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Nailed it Banten. What would you say is my sort of like favorite hobby friendship.

What would you say. Where would you say.

I spent most of my time definitely in bed waiting on your golden ticket.

I mean literally like the grandpa on the.

Yeah. And you pop right out when it's time to when it's time to perform.

I here's the thing. I get so much shit for how hard it is to sleep on certain mattresses and everyone will call me Princess and the Pea. And you're so sensitive and you're so this is like, I'm sorry, I don't want to injure myself.

These are important. My dad always said people, people, hardworking people need to think a good dinner and a good mattress. You spend a third of your life on that at now in covid times. Who knows? We're talking bed all day at this point in my head. Curse. This is I cannot I'm so angry that this product hasn't always been around. You basically get because I like I'll try to repeat it and I'm like, it's too tempting.

Then I'll try. It's like there's just no I'm in in between her, they match this to you. You take a two minute quiz, you tell them how you sleep, your body type, what you prefer. They match the mattress, your preferences leave them sideways on certain mattresses, guys.

Telling you I went to a doctor. He's like the most damage you're doing, your body's in your sleep. I was like, I don't know what to do with that.

And he was awarded the number one best overall mattress pick of twenty 20 by GQ and Wired magazine.

That same in the long run healer, healer or healer. It's a healer and the healing helix is offering up to two hundred dollars off all mattress orders. That's awesome. And two free pillows for our listeners at Helix Sleep. Pillows are their pillows.

Yeah, they're good pillows to feel sleep. Dotcom Quittner. Did you date people after you came back from prison? I've dated one hinge, so I didn't like that is on Bumble.

I would say I don't even know what I thought. That was like a hip way of like, are you in a relationship? OK, no, no. I've never joined a dating app. Tinder, never on Tinder. I was afraid of meeting new people. I didn't trust new people. I mean, it was like and I was being asserted that I couldn't trust new people. So, like, I would go to math class. I went back to school.

College?

Yeah, I went back to college and I was taking a remedial math class in Seattle. I went to the University of Washington and like I go to math class and like people are taking pictures of me in math class and posting them secretly. Yes, secretly. And then posting them to like their snowboarding buddies, like, you know, private like social group thing, not realizing that, like Google alerts are a thing. And so here I am, like receiving a Google or my stepdad receiving a Google search and being like, dude, there's a guy in your class who's talking about peeing in your butt and seducing you like so that he can get pictures of you.

And like and I know that that's a real thing. So it's a bummer. I just like what ended up happening was I, I went back to what I knew and where I felt safe and like I the first person I dated when I came back was someone I had dated before in college and I stayed in my own little bubble.

Interesting. What am I looking at? I'm sorry, the. We'll talk about it later. OK, you know, my brain, there's just a lot of like windows my you don't know that.

So I have a list. Like a list. Yes. Of things.

That I don't want to not bring up, so. Your podcast is called Labyrinths. Yes, the fact that it wasn't about the movie Labyrinth was a little like we're working on that.

We're working on that. I need to, like, get so it can't just be about a thing.

No, I am the bloom from Labrinth. That's like I should interview you concur.

But only OK. Yeah. I was very publicly shamed. I don't know if you know this, but my life has been very hard.

I want to hear about that. Mine is more. She's had work done. She's skinny. She lies about her age. She's not funny. I mean, female comedians are the most loathed people on the planet. Yeah. You know, the most hated women. They do a very masculine job. And a woman talking for an hour with the microphone.

You're like the female magician, like you're just trying to do and you're not allowed allowed to fuck us or kill us or or stop us.

And if someone well, you're doing a kind of magician thing to where you're like, I'm reading your mind so that I can make you laugh, it's a little bit of a massive process and it's a little bit of blue balls.

Like we're kind of falling in love because you're falling in love. We're all falling in love for an hour.

I'm trying to make you fall in love with me for an hour. Yeah.

And then you walk away.

But I only so so this leads me to what is the difference between women? Is there any difference between women and men's reaction to you? Do you go in the grocery store?

Hmm. I go into the grocery store more more often than not, it's women who who approach me to say, like, I know you and I cared about your case or whatever. But interestingly, it's more often men who are saying, I think you have something important to say.

Yes, she gets a lot of the I had a daughter and I saw her in you, you know, from the women. But the people who reach out obsessively online students are usually men. Yeah, the stalkers are men.

Yeah. Yeah, well, that's normal. And they stalk other people too, you know, like everyone gets stalked. I know. And Chris and I just so you guys know, we have a very like I come off dismissive about it, you know, because he's living in this, you know, Chinese finger trap of. But yeah. I was just curious and do people. When you well, I think I'm sorry this is fucked up to say, but there's a little bit of I think for.

I don't think you're notorious, I don't think you're infamous, but just four known people with the masks now there's a little bit of luck. I get to wear a mask and just like walk into a store. And I don't have to worry about people hating me.

I still recognize they still recognize me because it's your fucking eyebrows.

I think it might be my I did you I need to find out like who the who did the study of that because your eyes are also incredibly deep set.

Right. And like like good luck doing eye makeup like Lucy Punch like cast in the female brain. Can we pull up Lucy Punch. They say that I can do it right here. They say that we evolved to have our eyes sunken into our head to take a punch. Oh so.

Well, I take the emotional punch to the face, which is fascinating to me with you because your eyes are so deep set.

Yeah. I mean, I always thought that, like here people are friends of mine are doing makeup and I just can't do it because it just becomes a crease like hers are so deep. Sad. Yeah, totally. And they're so gorgeous. We did this movie and it was like the lighting. It's not the same when you're with her, you know, it was like you see her and then you see in the lighting you're like, oh, I need to I'm just so interested in how our faces evolved or our bodies and faces and brains evolved to manage the violence.

And you don't forget sweat. You know, the bridge in the deep set eyes is also just to keep sweating shit out of your eyes.

Will you marry me? Don't forget sweat.

Totally German, violent, working, stoic. Yeah. Just get that good.

You do yoga. Were you a gymnast?

So yes, I was very the wrestler.

You didn't do Jim inss.

I mean I can go outside and do a run off back handspring for you right now. You aren't and you haven't been here.

I haven't seen chair but so if you weren't a gymnast I think it might be weirder to me. Sure.

I mean, I appreciate that I was the only person who was there doing that and doing stretches. But like, this is where I was regularly doing yoga, like every day. So like to be trapped in a in a police office where I have to sit in this chair all day and, like, be called and ask questions. And like, I just have a different relationship with my body because I can I know what my muscles are doing.

You know, when you're somewhere in somewhere public and there's a guy who's like imaginary golfing, I don't think I ever seen that.

Have you ever seen that? He's the golfer. When we go to the golf course, I like jog and then he golfs.

But like, when you see you never see someone who's, like, just a guy who's just like does a baseball that's not catchy as fuck.

I that would be weird. I'd question that guy. So, Emily, you know, when you're in a grocery store or something and you see a guy do an imaginary golf swing and they even move their feet, this is real.

This is a real thing.

I mean, it's just like we have our little default because I always wanted to do a sketch about this where a guy, you know, guys will do like imaginary balls. Yes.

And that he misses on like you trying to be real estate. Why would you like maybe he felt that he did it wrong. So he has to like, acknowledge. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Something like why did you miss it then.

It's like I was working on this joke and I don't think it's going to work about how every woman who lives alone has to pretend there's an imaginary man in their house.

When a worker comes over and you're kind of like and the man that you pick says so much about who's your imaginary man?

I imagine you've got a lot of workers in the house. I my macho man, like when I because I got burgled at an apartment a my life has been hard and scary to no, no years and years. When you were in prison, I was getting burgled.

OK, well it was it was stressful. That's how I ended up in prison anyway.

Like someone burgled my house and then, OK, you know, we're going to talk about that and then the child, OK, I have to write stuff down room.

I'm my wild brain. So what was it? We're talking about burglary, burglary, you were burgled and you were telling me about how you were burgled and and your imaginary man, so when the man comes like a construction worker, comes over whatever plumber or whatever, and they're like, OK, I'm here to do the plumbing.

I don't know how they talk. And can you send that to Lorne Michaels? That impression? I just did my audition for SNL here to do the plumbing.

And I'm like, hey, like I like my substories.

My boyfriend's upstairs sleeping. It's always like he's sleeping. It's just he's a little hung over. It's always a little hung over. He just drinks. It's like, you know, it's just like I could have been like, he's on with Tokyo, he runs a bank, he's lifting weights.

Why did I sharpening is I like this. His wife hates it when it comes, you know. So it's just like a funny I have not lived alone ever. I have not I guess I lived briefly alone when I came home.

But even then, like I, I had like my my boyfriend who is there, I, I don't love to live alone, which is, you know, I like people and I, I feel safer.

I want to talk to you about how you make people instantly funny and your self-deprecating humor and like what we do about it like. You know, it's sort of like a little bit. The fact that people don't have to be self-deprecating around me because they can just be Amanda deprecating and they're allowed to be in a little bit of me dies inside every time I do it.

And because I have such a like a brain and I and I've I do think I deserve an award for all the ones I didn't the jokes I didn't make around the knives. Sure.

I meant how many knives, jokes have I made around you so far, like Amanda? Can you touch the knife or like I'm like, where is the knife so I can cut the tomatoes. You're like cutting tomatoes.

And I'm like, you're like, where's the chef's knife? Yeah, I don't even know the fuck that is. It's just the one that instead of a paring knife to, like, slice him, it's good for slicing. Anyway, we're making you shakshuka for breakfast. And I'm like, hey, where's the chef's knife? And you're like, you give all the people to not know.

And I said it, I found it. I think like three times I would say and I think I've not said it maybe like but here's the thing like you that I can time for myself.

I know it's a funny joke, but it's a little bit of me dies and I wonder if a little bit of udaya like or does a little bit of you heal.

Is not that funny of a joke though.

Well so here so there are jokes that are at my expense that are just like, you know, easy, not funny jokes that are at my expense. And then there are jokes like when I first came home, my family like had this cake and we all were having cake. And they're like, I had to cut the cake. And I was like, You sure about you? Like, those are funny jokes.

It was like, can I tell you the ones that that that were funny once? But I think if we did it again, I wouldn't like it and is not I wouldn't like it.

I would just be like, oh no, no. Now you don't have to do this. Like your you don't have to be Amanda Knox all the time is when I, I don't know, I almost hit my head on something or I was like, oh, just don't hit your head on this thing.

I don't want to, you know. And you're like, yeah, don't die when I'm in the house or something.

Yeah. And that's like a joke, but also a little serious. Yeah. You're like, please don't die if I'm near you. I think we were out here.

No, we were at the other place, rental place because they have those like fake beams. Yeah. And and you were like, please don't die. Yeah. No one's allowed to get hurt or die around me because I'll get blamed, which is why I'm a really cool person. Have around because you could commit a massacre and everyone would assume yeah, yeah, yeah.

I actually think it's kind of the opposite.

They're like what are the chances of having twice people like have reached out to him or my best friends and to say you need to get away from her, she's going to kill you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like I may I guess the one thing that makes me sad is like with the knife jokes thing is it's like I and the Orji jokes thing is, it's like, well, not only have I never killed anyone and never stabbed anyone, but things and I've never been in an orgy.

So like all these, like, jokes are once again about like the idea of me that was like totally fake and made up and like so it doesn't even feel like the jokes about me because again, it's just like everything about me is not about. And that's why that 30 Rock joke that was so good.

Good. Yes. So they were like Kristen Scholl was talking about being famous and, you know, I guess Inshala but not me. No, I don't know. Kristen Schaal. She just made a joke about me on 30 Rock of her. I like I love her. She's so good and confuse me with her. I get so excited cause I'm like, oh, you think I'm funny.

The best joke ever that I like just loved was she was talking about being famous and she was like, Are you kidding me? It's so easy to become famous. Amanda Knox got famous for not killing. Excellent. That's amazing. And it's like, yes, thank you. It's sucks to be famous for not doing something.

It's like I told you that I'm like it just feels like you're still in jail, just like a different kind of jail, you know. And granted, I'll take this jail. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Of course.

And then it's interesting because, you know, your husband and I have had a couple is row, row, row, row, not even you've just had like a row, like a little scuffle, like a row a row, but not even, you know, like phone conversations like like like the kind of conversations we should be allowed to have.

But everyone's afraid to have because everyone wants to assert their identity through the things that they say and they're never willing to entertain an alternative idea.

And in where I come from, that's what's called an interesting conversation. And I would love to get in conversation with your husband, Chris, with coming in with one thing and come out and being wrong and go, oh, my God, yeah. I just learned that I, I just know, you know, what words I'm not hearing anymore. I just realized and I just changed my I they're not allowed to.

I never thought about it that way before. What's awesome. You heard someone say I just realized something.

Yeah. No, you're a bad person if you've never thought about something before specials.

OK, so and then you made me laugh really hard. This felt like it was worth it when you I said something because my personality like the confluence of the quarantine and my.

My mom got covid and everyone's in isolation and we're all at peak fever, and yet here and we don't uncertainty in the future.

The sun kills it the other day. The sun doesn't kill it. One day the masses are good. And the next day you're taking them from the workers. The next day, your your blood type is the problem. And, you know, so we're just in this terror management nightmare. And I said something like, I'm sick, but I've really leaned. I think during this time I've leaned into what like kind of honoring the way my brain works, which is very.

How would you describe it?

I mean, you are constantly entertaining a lot of your your brain is your screen right here, which is like a ton of windows open with a lot of scattered thoughts that all definitely have connections. Fifty eight thousand nine hundred twenty two unread emails.

Exactly. But like you have a through line and sometimes it's hard for the rest of the world to, like, stay on top of it. Like, we do have to do a little extra work to be like, OK, what horse are we jumping on right now? Because you're kind of galloping horse and different horses that are totally happy about being ridden at the same time rescued.

So it's like, OK, yes. So and like in you or so and and so it's like two things can be true at once. Ended up. Yes. So I said something like, I'm so sorry, I'm being crazy. I said to you I was like, sorry, I'm being so nuts.

And then I was like, I have lived I've been trapped in rooms and lived with women who have killed their own children.

So I can handle you any way. We are cool, good therapist. My therapist is my journal and him and my cats and the podcast and the podcast, honestly, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's that Lourens. So OK. So yeah, your podcast is which I do kind of want it to be video.

I know we just don't have the technology. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like this is a beautiful setup and I actually want to take notes from you like I offered, you can come down here once a month and shoot five episodes and also make a list of me for me of all the things that I need, because I also want Amanda and Chris to decorate the studio because they are on it, say, ah, I need to take measurements.

So fucking amazing with crafts.

It's wild and we're not even the best people at crafts that we know. Well, that's why you're the best. Because you think like that. That's my favorite type of person. Well, so learning process.

But I want I listened. I don't want to get in trouble with some of the guests that I listen to, but I was listening to it and it's just you're so unbelievably. God, it's like what I, I just don't insult anybody that I don't like unnecessary jobs, but it's just so fascinating the way you guys talk. You're so incredibly erudite or erudite, erudite, erudite. I'm going to let you flounder for. I always get to erudite, erudite, are you trying to say that we're you're so learned or what are you trying to say?

Oh, like you're just so well-spoken and so incisive. It's for me. I have to be laughing. You're learning. Are you thinking eloquent? No, it's it's not just fucking air conditioning, OK? I'm just I'm just learning some. I'm just like, fuck blowing. My favorite thing is having my mind blown. OK, cool. Your podcast is a mind blowing podcast. Well, thank you.

Because I'm constantly trying. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was so happy that you like alcohol. You realize how many I'll kill you jokes I make.

Right. And you're not allowed I'm not allowed to make that joke.

Like is it exhausting to just constantly have to monitor your don't tell me I'm going to kill you. I have a knife. Like, is it do is it constantly running or not?

I'm going to respin. I mean, I am aware that certain people are going to be weirdly sensitive to anything that I say because simply because it's coming from me. I just don't know who those people are. Of course, because like I like I said, I'm walking through the world where there's this, like, screen in front of me and some people see through it and other people don't. And so, like, everything I could possibly say is perpetually tainted by people who want to compare what I went through to what Meredith went through.

And like, so it's right anyway.

And they just want ahead of the. Self righteous indignation. Yes, I get a lot of that, I think, and you touched on it in the documentary you didn't get paid to do for your time where you said, like, people need a villain, they love money. You said people love monsters. We love villains. Well, they don't want to be the monster themselves. And if it's I mean, there is a very Huberman, I think, spoke about it on the podcast of like, how, you know, where did we get our brain releases dopamine when.

Someone else is being castigated and we're judging them because we have protection from the tribe and we get dopamine, and this is like a mind blowing concept that like these are the kinds of things that I think tell us about who we are and why things happen to us.

And like the why for me is the thing that always has bothered me about what happened to me and what happens to other people. Like why were people putting, like, dicks on all of your billboards? Well, that's a really interesting question, because it's either people suck and which is a boring answer also.

Or 15. I do it. It would be funny. Exactly.

And again, like is the 15 year old is going to have a reason for doing it. That and thirty five year old underdog. Thank you.

Give me 10 years to figure that's why we're such good friends. Yeah. I am. Irate thinking about the students in college right now. Who aren't going to college, who still have to pay. Yeah, I'm I'm irate about people who went to college and then don't get to use their degree because there's no jobs and they're still having to pay. The job they went to school for no longer exists, what's just happened to get a job in a pandemic.

So it's like Ernest is helping you out. Times are tough. And who wants to worry about Ernest Bai?

What? It's not or not. It's not some guy. It's not Ernest. There is a company that literally is like your dad. If he was an accountant, everyone's dream like he just like Ernest comes in.

It's the company who's not some guy, but they're like, yes, you basically offers you a low grade student loan reform. That's characteristics of a man and a woman and one company. Compassionate yet good at math about you, but can do percentages and interest rates. I mean, that is a great I mean, there you go. That's the best way to describe it. They're going to help you refinance your loans, reduce your loans long term, save money with just simple monthly payments.

They're just you know, they're most people are doing get doing this because they can get away with it. Loans. Yeah. This student loans are student loans are evil. That's good.

But 17 year olds should be taking out one hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

Do that not knowing they bank on us, not fucking knowing what we're signing up and what we're reading.

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Two hundred doesn't make sense.

And the interest I could pay every day and only pay six dollars. And you see me just try to do math, just try to make it.

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So I like to get my mind blown by trying to understand how complicated human beings are. And so I'm just perpetually trying to go down those avenues to understand them, which means that I have to sit uncomfortably all the time with the fact that, like, there are people doing bad things, thinking they're doing good things, and there are people who are doing bad things and they just don't care.

And there's a reason they don't go wrong things for the right reasons. Exactly. And doing the right things for the wrong reasons.

So there's this performance artist and I'm not going to say her name. Right. Who stands on butter? Hmm. We had to watch the whole thing, like the thing is, I think too many people just watch a clip of it and they don't experience the whole thing. Like, you know, I feel like you have to see what it is.

So a woman who is just to you, by the way. Had you seen it? No, I had not seen it. You definitely showed it to me, just like trying to. I want the credit and a man is like, yes, well, what do you want? Oh, yes, you have all the credit.

Woman of color, slightly bigger build is wearing a sort of tight very, you know, be like sort of short black dress wearing these kind of chunky heels. And she's doing a piece on it just like on a very plain stage. And she's just on some chunks of butter and she is full 15 chunks of big blocks of butter.

And she is digging in her heels into this slowly as she's like dancing. And it's like a seductive dance.

Like she's kind of I mean, it's not like making eye contact with the audience, eye contact and like, painful, painful, like vulnerable, but almost like a broken sort of like I'm like I need you to see how hard I'm trying to, like, be this person that I'm like I'm trying to be this person that's seductive.

I don't know. Like for me, it was expressing a lot of, like, deep anger, but also like I think she's challenging the audience to.

To laugh at her, laugh at her and pity her and feel their own shame and feel her shame, and if she was not corpulent or of a bigger belt or not, the traditional stand of standard of beauty, would this be funny?

I don't think so, because I think a part of the comedy is her body. Like the part like the fact that she's hurt. She's literally start laughing.

You start laughing when she falls. Yes.

And if this was Charlize Theron and it looks like it hurts like it looks painful, if this was Nicole Kidman, we would be very upset because is it because we believe that the fat is protecting her from being injured or we just think it's funny or we're just exposed to the we're almost numbed to the idea that, like, fat bodies are, you know, pained and like are, you know, flopping and like falling on banana peels.

Like it's just funny.

So if we see when you hear the audio, it goes from her to laughter, then back to you. And then people start leaving like it's. But you would stay the whole time.

I would I would feel the need to be a witness because I'm not going to just know that she's in pain in that room and she's sharing that pain with other people. And I just decided it was like, not for me. It's what did it and what did you.

Because I believe that a big part of your situation is we just want to watch you.

We just people just want to look selfishly, just want to look at you. I mean, we are such we are driven by our reptilian brains. And there is something about your face. They say asymmetrical faces are just the golden rule of wanting to look at someone.

Well, and also like especially during the trial, we're talking about how I would cast you in a TV show and make so much money.

You walk these dogs, please climb out of the business.

OK, but when I do shows in my home with my I'll be on your show with my dog.

But I'm saying if you walk into a room, a casting director of the CW, Jan Houston, well, not me.

If someone with my body would walk just in your face and you walk in there like, well, we got her. We fucking got Michelle Williams. We got her. Who else? Emma Stone. We got her Grimstone. I mean, can't stop looking at it.

I know because I know it's bizarre to me to hate to wait for it.

I don't know.

I mean it's it's by the way. I'm sorry. Are you OK. Don't be sorry. Who. Julianne Moore. Who else. A Julia Armont is actually someone that really comes up for me with you.

Well and this was especially during the trial because like here I am.

I'm either in prison where no one can lay their eyes on me or I'm in the courtroom where like basically a life and death situation is happening.

So who's the in the Odyssey? Helen.

Helen of Troy. Yeah, everyone's mad at Helen of Troy. Who would play Helen of Troy today? I don't know people's names, I do it, but I don't think I've got anything else to do it.

I think. Who would do it? Let's go, come on. Alexandra de Bario, Imogen Poots, yeah, Alexandra de Dorio would also play Amanda Knox bitch.

Did you see True Detective? Yes, I did.

The first season that you did show me again, this girl is the most like obsessed over a girl.

That's such pretty eyes. That's you. That's you. Amanda Knox. Personal I'm talking about now.

Can you come over here? Can you. I mean, that's her.

Alexandra. That's like the same.

These same same. I know, I know, I know, but think about the face that would launch a thousand ships. Yes, think that's the face. It's a big that's a high bar. That is a very high bar.

I understand that in a world when, like, there's only like a thousand ships, but they don't see that many women, all the shit in your case, the board helps.

I mean, there's I didn't know about your butt until I met you. I was a plot twist. That was the biggest plot twist in this case.

Carefully, did everyone know about her ass? Weird like junk.

And so Lady Gaga, you're in this just kind of like I feel like you're on the tarmac and it's like, when do you get you're also not the only person said that to me.

It's just like, what are we doing? I feel like it feels less like a tarmac and more like the glass ceiling is like right here.

And I'm just going I'm not even hitting it with my hands. I'm hitting it with my head. And I'm like, and it's not like I feel entitled to be on the other side. It's just like I have shit to do and I want to do. I'm being held back.

It's like you're in like you're like fist fighting a sandstorm. I always say it's like you're just like, well, it's like there's no way to.

And like, I know it's weird. I almost wonder if, like, I'm sort of making this happen because I'm so I've spent my entire adult life with people who have been opposing me and wanting to, you know, put me in a small place and put me in a little cage and tell me who I am. And so I'm almost used to it. And I get confused when I almost end. Like, I don't know what's going to happen when I actually do have the opportunity to just, like, be a person and do what I want because I'm constantly expecting people to want to box me in.

I don't know anyone that thinks you're guilty is kind of funny. Well, I mean, people don't like like I like people.

It's like the sideshow. It's like the zoo. It's like I just feel like you're like a zoo animal. You were such a zoo animal for a while.

And now it's like there's there's plenty of people who think that she's not guilty. But I also think that her role in life now is to disappear quietly and respectful way because any reminder of her existence is really traumatizing.

People are using your fame off of that as disrespectful as if she somehow chose. You're not allowed to be happy, you're not allowed to have fun.

So I'm not allowed to exist publicly because I am reminding everyone about who doesn't get to the other day you were at my house and you guys were swing dancing.

Yes. And you're an amazing swing dancer because of the junk in your trunk. Yeah.

A lot of people just stare right at back in your face like that and you're like this amazing swing dancer.

And I was looking at her, you and I was like, she's just such a it felt so triumphant to someone that doesn't know you at all and so cool.

And just nido so you're I can Nido and I just you're just like I was just like people can't see you having fun now.

Well and then I, you know, not giving a fuck what I'm doing with my body has not always worked out for me. Well but also I'm a little bit stubborn where I'm like, fuck you, I didn't do anything. Like I really did not do anything. I'm sorry. I really didn't do a thing.

Like, I don't even think you to say that ever again. I'm trying to get like I'm trying to get you to never have to say that again. And I don't know. I want to be at that place like I hear you and I want to be at that place, like when I go to an interview and someone's like, so what was it like to be on punkt? And I'm like, Why? Are you sure? Yeah, you don't even know I'm talking.

I know what punkt is. I've seen the one where they did Elijah Wood and I was like, Oh, Elijah Wood. He's like he just like cares. A shot in French. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, which I made was my first job. And I was like, you were you were one punkt. Oh. Like you were like one of them. You weren't like the person agents, OK? You were punching people. You didn't get punched.

I did like no, I wasn't famous enough.

I was I wasn't famous at all, which is why I got the job.

You know, a lot of people that were like Amanda Knox guilty. And she did. And she's hot and sexy and had an orgy, like it's embarrassing to have been wrong and need to change your mind. And I think a lot we have and I think this is there's a biological basis for it, but we have this thing where we are embarrassed to go, you know what? I was wrong.

I shouldn't have done that, especially when I'm not a real person. So like for most people, just like because the way our brains work, I'm not a real person. I'm an idea of a person.

So like I understand when people like I was having this conversation with Tig Notaro where like Tig Notaro was like, oh yeah, I totally thought you were guilty. And I feel really bad for it now. And I was like recently I was talking to Clarence and Tig Notaro because they did a whole episode.

Oh, sure. Hi. I'm sorry. Oh yes. On the of Hands and Tig Notaro. And they had like done an episode about the my documentary and I happened to listen to it and they were like, wouldn't it be funny if Amanda was listening to it? And so I was like, I found Cheryl Hines on Instagram. And I was like, hey, just you know, I did listen to it. Like, if you ever want to, like if you have any questions, like, I was just literally like, you know, it sounds like you have it.

So I tried the documentary, the listeners think and the case like it's a complicated case and like the the documentary series was only able to get into, like, the fundamentals. But there's like a whole world around the case that is interesting.

And and, you know, anyway, so I said, like, hey, if you have any questions, like feel free, I'm an open book. And they were like, oh my God, can you come on live podcast? So anyway, I came on and Tig was like, I'm so sorry. Like, I just assumed, like everyone else, that you were guilty and like everyone else, everyone.

People. Yes, all women all like we get these generalizations which build my house, I know get us really bogged down.

It's true. I never I truly never thought you were. But there is a sense that I like I liked her and I was like, oh, she's pretty.

You're fucked. If you look like you, you are fucked. Whether you're in Italy, whether you're in Perugia, whether in Pensacola, Florida or whether in Toledo, like it's just like which isn't to say that like pretty women aren't guilty of things.

How easy is it to decide that someone is less human even when they're right there in front of you? The madness of crowds. Not yet the book.

We have it. OK, I've read it. You've got to. Got to. Got it.

No, I think he's right about some things and a little overblown about other things because he has to fill up like a lot of you.

How many books have you written? I've written one. He's written. How many have you written? Published two.

But yeah. And we also wrote about Homes Together. Nightwish All right.

That it's called The Cardio Tesseract. It's Love. I'm so sorry. The Cardio Tesseract.

It's love poems we wrote back and forth. I'll send you when we go there. Exquisite. What have you thought about.

Thought about a real real fight.

I like I fucking don't I real don't fucking do that again.

The closest thing that we've really thought about is so we work together and we create together and very often we have different thresholds for when we can move on to next steps. And occasionally what will happen is Chris wants to assert a level of perfectionism that I feel is counterproductive or like there will be like, I don't know, maybe I'm just a little bit delicate and insecure. But what else what I'll interpret as him being like this isn't good enough. I need to make it better is like me thinking.

He's saying I'm not good enough. And so he has to make it better. And that bothers me. But like we've had conversations where I've had to be like, OK, this is not about me, it's about the work and about a level of perfection.

The podcast, podcast, the Stargate that we made, like there are moments before their wedding. We'll get to it. Yeah. So like all these, like, beautiful things that we make, there's always conflict in the process of making because my process is not exactly weird.

It's just it's just we don't we don't fight. We don't fight just well, we're just very good at conflict resolution.

This is why I love horses. As soon as something bubbles out of control just a little bit.

Yeah, we go, OK, something's happened. Yeah. And we we resolve the tension within 15 minutes.

This is why I'm obsessed with animals. Because they forgive. They forgive very quickly and they look boom and we're back. They don't hold onto it.

Right. You don't hold on to them. You also don't have to hold on to it. If you say, here's how I'm feeling, even if you don't think that I'm justified in how I'm feeling. Here it is. Here it is. We both acknowledge it's there and then we move on.

We all get along, go to sleep angry, never, ever hurt you never sleep. It's only happen when you don't address stuff in it first and then you have to think it off. And then it's a big fight. We don't we don't let anything fester.

Yeah, but you're also like just like properly matched. It's like kind of shocking.

So. I wrote this down, If you had killed this person, we would have forgiven you by now.

That's an interesting thought. I mean, people seem to have forgiven the guy who actually did it.

And that's the other thing. I'm sure people talked about this. Like when I was watching the documentary, I was like, oh, he's black. That's awkward. Yeah, it is. I like I like didn't want him to do it. People have literally reached out to me on Twitter to say, like, I don't believe you because black men are always accused of crimes they didn't do and he's a black man. So there must be something wrong, of course.

And it's like, oh, fuck, why is she pretty? Why does she have to be pretty? Why does she have to be black and he have to be black?

Oh, I was just like the perfect fucking storm shit storm. Even the prosecution was bringing stuff up like, oh, you know, after they had safely convicted him, like he got convicted long before I did, they were like, oh, now that he's safely convicted, we can say he was just you know, he was just there. He didn't really he wasn't the mastermind like Amanda was. He's just this poor black man. We really, you know, like it's really Amanda who was the one who was like evil for the sake of evil.

She was the Lucifer Fariña. She was the. Do you have a cell phone in prison?

No, no, no. What? What. So the second it happens, you give your cell phone because there were like conversations, the documentary of you talking.

Yes, I until I was arrested, like arrested. Arrested, like I was being interrogated, but I wasn't arrested. Did someone hit you in the back of the head? Yes, twice.

Was that that's legal. I mean. Well, they say it didn't happen. But like the what happened was in the four days between us discovering that Meredith had been murdered and me being arrested, I was not told that I was a suspect. They said that I was not a suspect. In fact, it was never even like a thought in my head that I could be a suspect. I was a witness and they told me that I was a witness.

I was. And they kept saying, you're an important witness. Meanwhile, they tap my they tap my phone and they were interrogating me.

And three hours over the course of this tapped phone, it means that all phone conversations that I have are now recorded, which is all just always now. Right. I mean, they're legally allowed to, like, put that into the the case files. Oh, yeah. And that can then be in the news. However, the only time that they didn't record me was the final interrogation where they actually broke me. That's the one time where they were like, oh, the budget.

We just couldn't keep the recorders on.

I know multiple men. Who are in recovery programs now, who said the only way they can come is if a woman cries. And I just and these are not I mean, I'm in a 12 step program, admittedly, we all know that. I can't believe it took me this long to bring it up.

You know, people wanting you to cry is so fascinating to me, because if you did cry, it wouldn't have been enough.

It would have been too much. She's overdoing it. She's under doing it. She is sobbing too much. She's faking it.

She's meanwhile, the emotions of anyone else involved, including the person who actually killed my roommate, never even discussed. It's always what I'm wearing, what emotions I'm expressing, because also her emotions are not even, you know, her emotions.

They are a product of media selection bias.

You're also in fucking shock. When I I told you when my dog was getting surgery, I was ordering Starbucks for people in the parking lot and stretching.

You know, this association is a is a way of dealing with a traumatic.

Got the call that my dad died. I was the airport landed. Your dad died. I went to work on Roseanne. No meeting at Roseanne. We were in preproduction. The writers weren't there yet. And then I went to see my horse and then I was fine. I was listening to Robin in the car. Call your girlfriend, didn't tell anyone, got home, got an email that said we need to transport his body, saw the word body and it just broke.

Yeah.

And then the next I didn't cry. And then. The funeral never laughed harder than at the funeral.

But also imagine I laughed, I laughed at the funeral, my father's funeral, I died laughing if you recorded every second of your demeanor from for those few days and then decided to cherry pick an hour of footage out of hundreds of hours of footage, it's just you singing Robin in the car could make you look like anything.

We can make you look like the ideal morning driver in prison where you ever, like, harmed or scared or like when you're famous in prison. That's a thing, right?

Yes.

So so, yes, we had a little faux pas because I was talking to my therapist like the people in prison. You got to watch the ones that are quiet. You were like, that's what I said about me.

But yeah. No, it's true. So the guards would say that they were like, I trust the ones that like, you know, I trust the ones that are yelling and screaming and getting into fights. I don't trust the ones that are quiet because I don't know what to expect of them. And a lot of the guards would say either, oh, Amanda, you're the ideal prisoner, or, oh, Amanda, you're the kind of prisoner who is unpredictable.

In both cases. I was like, but that's because I'm not supposed to be here.

I'm literally not supposed to be here either way, though, like my my approach to getting through the prison environment and being the famous one, like being the famous one in prison, means that everyone feels entitled to your fucking business and not only your fucking business, but like the worst experience of your life.

Like, here's the I was living through the worst experience of my life and everyone is entitled to, like, get their little piece of it and, like, have their opinion about it.

You showering with people. So I'm not showering with people, but I'm definitely showering exposed to people. I felt like I'm cold right now.

Can I'm like, yeah, I thank you for letting me borrow it.

Like I'm cold about the vehicle when I'm cold.

You I'm cold. Thinking about you showering in Italy in a prison. It was hard for me that you were in prison.

While you're empathizing.

I get that. And so yeah, it would go from like incredibly cold in the winter to incredibly hot in the summer. It would it was better on whichever side of the prison you actually had, like airflows. People were not Italian. Most people were not Italian.

Yeah. Most people were African or Romanian women, young, pregnant.

That was across the board. There were some people who were very young. I was one of the youngest. I went in at twenty three.

There it is. I definitely still had all of my teeth and that was unusual. Your teeth are also a problem because they are perfect.

Perfect chompers never had I had braces.

She loves to brush. I do love to brush. Yeah, I got obsessed with brushing in prison because I was used to getting, you know, regular dental visit every six months. And then I went to prison and it was so funny because like when they came by and they were like, you know, dentist like the once a your dentist is like and I was like, oh, I'll sign up for the once your dentist. And they were like, what are you talking about?

You have all your teeth still. And I was like, OK, but I went and then the dentist looked at me and was like, why are you here. Like I'm not here to like you don't need any teeth pulled. And I was like, oh, I'm just for my six month thing.

And he was like a and so he just like sort of like, what was he like, was he Italian? He was Italian now. So Italian, Italian or Spanish speaking Italian. No one spoke English and you could knew what they were saying.

Well, so the first year of my time in prison was people yelling at me because I didn't understand what they were saying. And it was very scary because, like, it's a thing where I'm like I'm just trying to wash my underwear in the bidet, like you're supposed to do also with your mask, wash your mask. It's like underwear. That's true. My E.A. just told me that you have to wash it all the time. So I wasn't doing that.

I was it was in my car. Was it my purse? I was like, I'm going to be green and now my snot is green.

I succeeded anyway.

There were just lots of things that I didn't know and I couldn't even I had to work really, really hard to, like, not step on anybody's toes because everyone in there is a broken, damaged person who has emotional triggers. And like, you know, I it's my turn to clean the cell. So I am like scrubbing the floor and someone's yelling at me because they don't agree with the way they're running the floor. I did not cry very often.

You're just like I went numb. I was stoic. I saw from an old farm.

Are you impressed? I am impressed, not from Animal Farm. Oh, look at the box. I'm I'm the kind of like just trudge like, OK, here I am suffering. If I just like I think I can I think I can I can just get up this hill. I don't know how long this hill is.

How long did you how long do you think you were going to be in there.

Depends on the time of the of so before my conviction I thought that at any point someone would realize that something was wrong and I could come home like literally like at any point after my conviction, I thought I was never yours until the trial resolved.

So, yeah, to, you know, two years of my imprisonment, I thought it's all going to work out.

Anything can happen any day now. Someone's going to realize that it's all wrong and they're going to let me out Groundhog Day and. Exactly. And then after my conviction, everything I thought was true about the world and about truth and what people cared about was demolished.

And you're seeing the news. You're you have newspapers. So there are Italian newspapers that you could like. There's one Italian newspaper that you can get in.

They want to interview you. Do you have to do it? No, they did not have access to me. So, yeah, I was like under lockdown. And that's one of the reasons why it was such a thing to see me in the trial because I was under lockdown.

You're doing the art of seduction or Robert Green by accident. Yeah, like I'm like I'm this sort of like special hived away, like Princess Jasmine and like the walled off port. And then, like, I get brought to write to the public display to get like flogged that.

And everyone's like, oh, you going through those crowds, those mosh pits was just so hard for me.

While you're empathizing like I mean, watching you go through those is it was so.

You just disassociate. I mean, are you bruised, are you I mean, you look at looked physically dangerous, it is physically dangerous. And a lot of people I hate it when people describe my relationship to paparazzi as like a dance. It's like I know what I know how to fuckin dance. Yeah. You know, I saw it. And dancing is a consensual thing. And what's happening to me is an assault. Like you were literally like up on my body and I just like it.

And the police aren't really helping. There aren't really. Oh, there's there's no you don't want to be saying it's not legal to get in the way of the paparazzi.

Like, does the paparazzi get money from the government? It's the paparazzi.

They're just more protected by the laws than they are here. And even here. They have way too much leeway, I think.

But they're paparazzi. If you kill one, it's like self-defense here. Oh, no, no, no. You're not allowed to, like, touch. If you touch their camera, you're assaulting them. Like when we went to summer, you know, it was like imagine like 15 people swarming around you like six inches from your face, falling over each other in order to, like, get closer to you, hurting themselves, hurting themselves in order to shove their camera.

No, I've never seen cameras back then were weapons. I mean, so they were like, cumbersome.

Yeah, no good. Yeah, I'm watching.

It is just this was just. That was recently. Yeah. Where was that when I went back to Italy the first time. OK, we'll talk about that. But also you flew into L.A. a couple days ago.

Oh yeah. Well no one assaulted me. I just.

I know, but I'm just saying there's paparazzi for you a couple of days ago here, which is just that that was surprising because I was like, it's not known that I was coming here. I wearing a mask and I walk out of the airport and someone's like Amanda, Amanda with her camera and their microphone.

You could have been Alexandra Daddario. Yeah. Would have been like, why? And like the fact that they said, Amanda, I was like, I like that.

I think that someone selling names, someone that works at the flight office.

I would not have run that theory by you, Emily, because it's only when I fly one airline, I get paparazzi. I'm like, I'm not that famous.

I mean, it goes to show like, here's another reason why we should have universal basic income, because no one is getting paid enough to be decent to another guy.

Yeah, right. Like, we all have to sell each other out. We all have to do things out of desperation. It's like the it's like poaching in Africa. It's like you're going to tell people they can't kill it. They can't feed their kid right there like giraffe or my kid. It's my thing about guns in America. People I get in fights with all the time. I have I have family in Virginia. It's like you're going to tell me I can't protect my children.

And the nearest yeah, and anyone who doesn't acknowledge that is is is making their argument, like making their even their whole purpose is not Eurostep, it's elitist.

But it's also like genuinely you're shooting yourself in your own foot like anyone who's in the gun, like the criminal justice community who doesn't like acknowledge that there are victims who who would who would feel so much safer if anyone who committed a crime never left prison again. And like I understand that impulse because I've had something horrible happen to me. And the fact that the person who nearly could have killed me and kill my roommate is just like walking around now is like I would not want to live in that town where he was free.

So he gets off on day release now and like, he's very, very close to serving out his sentence because he got a reduced sentence for not being the mastermind.

He was he was convicted of rape and conspiracy to commit murder. Yes.

But not actually murdering their you know, his DNA is like in and on Meredith's body.

His handprints and footprints are no blood. You know, like it's obscene.

It's really wild just when you realize that the people that are in charge. Had moms that didn't love them and dads that didn't love them and, you know. Are in debt and are scared and have egos, and you're just like such a like a it's a mindfuck on the traumas that we experience becomes some of the most real things to us, because they're the things that we keep obsessing over.

I keep accessing over, like, why, why, why did this happen to me?

I also feel like people use you know, that does happen.

And sometimes I allow myself to be used because I understand that there is a higher goal or whatever like so and I love the innocence community because they are so, so careful not to do that, like when the Innocence Project and the whole network is very, very firmly takes a stance of like exonerated have been through enough. They don't have to then be paraded around so that we can make a better case in court. Those who do feel comfortable coming out and telling their story like, thank you, but like you don't you shouldn't feel like you have to do that.

But a lot of these honorees like in this and I feel this as well as it's like if the only thing that anyone has ever cared about is whether or not I'm guilty or innocent of a crime, like somehow also my own self-worth becomes wrapped around. Like your obsession with that question, because that's the feedback loop I'm getting, is it's like when I and I'm here, like here am I are here.

I am trying to like, make all these crafts and make a podcast and no one gives a shit, but they do give a shit. If we get to sit around and talk about whether or not I'm guilty. Yeah. Like that is a feedback loop that I'm telling. Like, oh, the only thing that you care about me is the question of whether or not I have anything to do with this.

Like, it's like it's so tricky because it's like as a woman, it's like any woman. Sorry. It's like when you're like I know that you my looks work for me. I know you want to like I, I can use play this card because I because of fucking human nature and I don't want to play this card but it works. And what am I going to not I mean it's just such a rocking.

Well and I and I realized that as well where I feel like for me being, you know, a white woman, I'm much more easy on the eyes than a lot of other economies who have spent decades in prison, who are not older now and like who like who haven't spent time, you know, being forced to be a public speaker or a star.

Well, yeah, I mean, comparatively. So I also feel like this sense of I need to be the bridge between this, like, huge gap of understanding between people who have to go through prison, like the number of times that I encounter, especially women, because women are really, really care about the criminal justice system, even though it's not built by us or for us. And we are so wrapped up with like how any one of us could become a victim at any time.

That's why we have our imaginary men when like the workers come around, we have imaginary men that we inform them of, like, here's my boyfriend. We're we're obsessed with how we can be hurt.

And yes, at all times, which is when, you know, it's interesting with the pandemic, when men are like, you go to the grocery store and you're I don't know. And I'm like, we're like that all the time, dude. The pandemic, like, I'm just like I'm scared of everyone all the time and, you know, scare of their judgment, scared about what they're doing.

Walking to your car at night. Like, what do you mean everyone's like in the grocery store, like didn't have a mask on and they got too close to me. I'm like, that's us. We're always in that hyper vigilant.

We're prey animals were prey, you know? So it's that is not and that's my obsession with them. The fear of robots do.

When men are terrified of robots, it's like, OK, this is the first thing that you don't that could kill you, right. The first time. It's stronger than you that might one day actually that we're used to, that women are scared of robots. You know what? That makes so much sense for why men are obsessed with the Terminator and women are obsessed with true crime. It's the exact same period.

And pathogen avoidance.

Obviously, I just look at it. It's like I don't need the Terminator.

I have you watching this show and me, you're the Terminator. I'm like, oh my God. I got to say about like study fear. I'm like, just ask a woman. Nine scientists are in the lab studying what makes people scared. And I'm like, just ask, oh, I'm in a very intense person. I'm super intense. And if and I haven't always been like this because I was, you know, before I was in recovery for codependents, I was a shapeshifter and I just was like, whatever you need me to be, I'm going to be that.

You need me to be funny. You need me to walk on eggshells.

You need me to be less funny so that you can be the star. Like, I just need to know what you need. You need to get you a drink.

You need me to, you know, get drunk with you, like what is right.

So everything I had to figure out how to placate you.

So that is so normal for women to do is exhausting, exhausting. But it's just like the way wrote a book about it. Yeah. We're wired for her. We're wired to figure out our place is. Why women make to make other people feel better, to stop yelling like women are like any bosses and why they don't hire them because you are getting points, it just shit will run better because it's there's 10 kids and we need to know who's hungry and who has to pee and who has to shed and who just fell and who's hurt and.

Right. You know, I still need to find out what the study was that women evolved to cry because men couldn't read faces well enough.

Interesting. So it's like I literally need to be like leaking. If it could be blood, it would be blood. But I can't leak blood out of my face. So I'm just going to, like, alert you.

Or there's something called pathogen avoidance, which is part of the reason that when I have this robot and I would expose people to the robot men would be men were like, oh, it creeps me out.

Like they would get like like but as it creep them out because they also kind of want to touch it.

That's why my special is called Can I Touch It? Because guys would say, can I touch it?

And then I'm like, aren't you the same guy that put your hand on my lower back at a nightclub? You never ask me.

Like, why? Because it is actually really funny. Like, I have to ask permission to touch your fake body, but not your real body. And when you're pregnant, people are just like, yeah, yeah. You know, it's just like it's wild how women's bodies are public property unless it's a machine, because guys, cars, cars, are she cars and cars.

You can't you relate to this at all. So, yeah, you know, you're an outlier.

Do I think of women as property?

Is it I mean, obviously that's been one of the major animating principles of human society since humans created society. I think that it's hard to explain human history without thinking about this ever present notion of women as property blane's a lot of culture also.

Why are species proliferated? Yeah. Yeah. You know, like we got to and that goes back to biology.

It goes back to just the epistemic gap that men I'm sorry, stopped what's epistemic over relating to knowledge like epistemology.

The study of the study of knowledge. Right.

What's a synonym. Just knowledge, so knowing something, so there's a gap in knowing and you're talking about that.

So there's the ontology and then there's epistemology and there's scientific study of reality. There's a study of what we know about reality. Right. So like when it comes to sperm and egg and when it comes to procreation, the man does no child comes out of the man. So he just has to hope that it's his seed that was implanted in that woman and that she was faithful and so forth.

So I told her I got I got a little bit of a thing with Andrew Huberman about because I had read somewhere that men's penises were evolved to be scooped out.

The truth about the sperm of the cat dicks are like that.

Cat dicks have apparently have like spikes on them and ducks. If you've ever seen ducks. Fuck. Oh my God. Ducks. OK, so ducks like ducks the way that like female ducks deal with the fact that they are just raped. Oh my God. First of all, they have raped ducks get so wrongly rape.

It's like it's only like it's like I'm a duck man raped. No, no. Ducks like literally girl duck is like tootling along in the water. A guy duck jumps on top of her, puts his beak on her head and drowns her while he takes steak.

He's not like she's basically like, oh yeah. And he is like sticking his corkscrew dick into her vagina, which has many avenues to like, trick the corkscrewed dick into not getting into her actual vagina. Like, it's really disturbing. And I only found this out because I went to a hotel where, like, the cute thing about the hotels, they had some ducks that were in the fountain in the middle. And then I saw a duck getting raped.

And I was like.

This is really the most upsetting thing, but like one that I cannot catch a fucking break do, but also like it's just like such a reminder that like almost all sex ever, like in the history of ever has been rape.

You know, about Toxoplasma now as Moses. Yes. Yeah.

It's when it removes rodents, innate fear of cats.

Oh, I've heard that. That affects humans. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yes. A lot. And it makes you want to have more risk. Yes. The extreme sports people. The cliff divers.

Yes. The three climbers motorcycle this evolutionary adaptation to help the parasite complete its life cycle. Toxoplasma can sexually reproduce only in the cat gut. And for it to get there, the pathogen rodent host must be eaten. So it makes rodents want to get eaten by cats.

Yeah, they're just aren't afraid of them anymore.

So it's kind of sit there and like they and they know they run up to them and they try to get eaten by them. Yeah. Move oil. Don't get me started on worms the way the ways that our minds can be manipulated either by chemicals or just plain what and by the way, neurochemicals.

You are an adrenaline junkies. Dream me. Yep.

And we're sorry. Work in that time. I'm toxoplasmosis. Whoa. This has been a wild episode. So I decided. How do you let this digest, let this all marinate process at all? And we're going to have the second half of the episode. Two more hours of wildness with Amanda freakin Knox next week. It's even crazier. I love you guys. Thanks for listening. I just want to put out a four hour episode like a psychopath.

I know you.