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[00:00:04]

All of my guests today say they have uncovered the secret, you know, that voice in the mid 2000s. Oprah Winfrey was a kingmaker even well into anybody's life.

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The secret is the law of attraction.

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Everybody is talking about one appearance on her daytime talk show could turn a book into a number one bestseller, turn a product into a phenomenon, or it could launch a self-help movement, something that I really believed in for years, that the energy you put on the world is always going to be coming back to you.

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That's the basic principle.

[00:00:38]

On New Year's Day 2006, Oprah invited five self-help gurus under her show. They had all been featured in a DVD called The Secret. Sitting in a chair on the stage, looking triumphant. In the middle of the panel was James Arthur Ray.

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Six years ago, put it out into the universe. I was going to be on this show and the action I took was the work on me to become a better. Me to get it. To grow more. To learn more. To serve more. To provide more value. And guess what? You guys called me.

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Oprah's audience loved the secret e-mail after e-mail after e-mail.

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Viewers wanted to talk about the secret.

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It was such a big hit that she invited some of the guests back on her show to talk more about its teachings. And James Arthur Ray, author of The Science of Success. They are back to talk about.

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James was a hit, funny, warm, always connecting with the audience.

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How does science back it up, James? Well, science tells us that everything is energy. And as time went on, James got more comfortable in his Oprah appearances. He talked about more than just what was in the secret.

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I travel all around the world and speak to thousands and thousands of people. And I know this for sure, that what we really want is something I call harmonic. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So harmonic wealth is just harmonic state of well-being in the five heroes of your life. Financial, relational, intellectual, physical, spiritual.

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Yeah. James had had a following before, but Oprah's thumbs up had propelled him to another level. By 2009, James Ray was selling out his events. Some people were paying tens of thousands of dollars a year to have him as their guru to learn his thoughts on the law of attraction. To achieve what he called harmonic wealth. And to become, in his words, spiritual warriors. We are pleased to have simply safe as our presenting sponsor. I thought about getting a home security system for years, but the whole process just seemed too complicated.

[00:02:53]

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[00:03:17]

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[00:04:03]

This is episode three. James is good story. On a warm and sunny day in Camp Verde, Arizona, fifteen detectives gathered inside a windowless conference room at the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office. A coffee machine bubbled in the corner, brewing the fourth pot of the day. Detective Ross Diskin leaned back in his chair. It had been about 48 hours since they had first gotten the nine one one call from the Angel Valley Retreat Center.

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Everybody was was pretty burned out from long hours and interviewing lots of people. But we felt that early on it was important to sit down as a group and discuss theories about what could have happened inside the sweat lodge. One detective stood up and took notes on the dry erase board where the deaths inside the sweat lodge the result of a crime, or was it a tragic accident?

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I was on the side that this wasn't a crime, that these people chose to stay inside the sweat lodge until they died.

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Ross made his case to the room. We had doctors, dentists, people with medical backgrounds who stayed inside the sweat lodge. If a doctors inside the sweat lodge and if they fail to recognize that people are in distress and in danger of dying, then how can we hold James Frey accountable for being expected to realize the danger of the situation?

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But not everyone was on Ross aside, there were some pretty heated arguments about whether or not this was a crime.

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The arguing went on for hours. Ross was exhausted. He looked around the room paper cups, lined the conference room table along with plastic water bottles. Some held water. Others were used as spit cups for detectives who chewed tobacco. Ross reached into his pocket, pulled out a can of skulls, straight packed it and threw a dip in behind his bottom lip. He raised his voice to cut above the noise. Who is this guy? Ross asked the room.

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Who is James Arthur Ray? That was the question that Ross would spend nearly two years trying to answer.

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From the time that I first arrived that first morning, I worked the next 19 days straight without a day off.

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Ross knew that Sedona had a reputation for attracting free spirits New Age types. Sedona is official. Tourist Web site brags that the city is home to a series of energy vortexes, swirling centers of energy that are conducive to healing, meditation and self exploration. But even though Sedona was technically in Ross's jurisdiction, it wasn't exactly his scene.

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I didn't know anything about the self-help industry. I never even heard of the self help industry, and he'd never heard of James Ray. So those first few weeks, he interviewed everyone he could who'd been in that sweat lodge. It was harder than he'd expected. The participants appeared to be in shock or disbelief. They didn't understand what was going on. They didn't understand why James Ray left and wasn't there to explain to them what had happened. These people appear to be hardcore followers of James Ray.

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And so they look to James Ray for the answers. And when they needed answers the most. James Ray wasn't there to give those answers.

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I didn't want to hear another thing out of anybody. I wanted to go home. After spiritual warrior Laura Tucker had gone home to Canada, returning to work with a newly shaved head. She was a wreck.

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I had friends who knew I was there, who had gone to one of the harmonic wealth weekends. So they had a at least a measure of why I was there. The positives and they came running. But it was very, very, very difficult. She thought a lot about how she'd gotten to this point, why she'd been attracted to James in the first place. Tried to remember where she started before she came across James Ray. Laura had been unhappy.

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She worked at a car dealership. And Laura had always prided herself on being a high performer, professional, collected, competent on the personal side. Though things weren't as bright and shiny as business had been, I was struggling with what I guess you could call an diagnosed depression. She'd moved across the country for work and she didn't have any family or friends in her new city. She wasn't happy with her love life either. I still had some designs on having my own family.

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I was dating like one bad guy after another, doing the same thing over and over again with the same frustrating, insulting result. Just wasn't leading me to have the type of life that I saw for myself. Laura had made one close friend, a colleague at work named Mandy Tamaki.

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In my personality, if I have a friend as I meet somebody and they new to the area. It's like you want to just include them so that they can experience what we get to experience. Mandy and Laura hung out a lot. Happy hours after work, shopping, trips together, brunch on Sundays. And we go out, we dress up, we'd drink wine, we go to a concert or go to some sort of event and have a blast and joke around and have lots of laughs and a good time.

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Usually Laura kept things light.

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But one day that changed on Laura's 40 first birthday. I could just sense that something was off. She wasn't her happy go lucky self confidence of. I just asked her, what's up? Laura broke down. She opened up to Mandy about some of the personal struggles she was going through. That was kind of a turning point for us because I almost had more respect for her because she was able to be vulnerable and I felt closer to her. So when I find somebody who is struggling or isn't happy, it's in my personality to try to help them.

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Mandy thought she knew exactly how to help Laura. She handed her a DVD and promised her it would change her life. The DVD was called The Secret Laura Promised to watch. But for a few days, it just sat on her coffee table. And then I knew I was going to see Mandy. The next day at work. So I thought I'd better watch this. I told her I would. So that night she settled in. The DVD cover art was designed to look like a weathered page in an ancient book.

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In the top center, a red wax seal sat emblazoned with the words The Secret. In a sweeping script font at the bottom was an alluring tagline. The secret has traveled through centuries to reach you. I put it into the DVD player, grabbed a cup of tea and sat down to watch. And the secret opens up with this scene of all of these Roman soldiers marching.

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I've been given a glimpse of a great secret.

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I began tracing the secret back through history. And this idea is being presented that there's some big secret that nobody knows about.

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All I wanted to do was share the secret with the world. I began searching for people alive today who know the secret. One by one, they began to emerge. Honestly, I almost stopped it right then and there just because it was so hokey. I took a deep breath and thought, OK, you told man you would watch this, just see it through.

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I don't care if you're an Indian, if you're in Australia, New Zealand, Stockholm or London or Toronto or Montreal or New York. We're all working with one power, one law. It's attraction.

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The secret promised people a surefire way to change their lives, to become happy, to become prosperous. I've had interviews with dozens of self-help authors.

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They all seemed to gravitate around what is now known as the law of attraction. The whole premise of is what you think about is what becomes. And I could see, looking back on my life, that any time where I was frustrated or negative over a long period of time, then my results would not be all that great. And I could see a little bit of how that was affecting me in what I wanted in my life. Laura was impressed and taste.

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The next day she brought the DVD back to Mandy. They started talking about it. They were both particularly drawn to one of the teachers in the film, James Arthur Ray.

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You know, the universe is as great, Janie, and your conscious mind is Elad. Whatever you put out there consistently is coming to you.

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She signed up for a seminar that would introduce her to James as entry level program. It was called Harmonic Wealth Weekend in Oakland, California. This is James Arthur Ray.

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I'd like to welcome you to your journey. This is my life's work. It's my passion and my purpose in this lifetime. And to communicate these truths to you and to as many people as possible is why I'm here. Are you excited? You should be. Get ready because everything in your life is about to change. Laura bought her ticket and headed to Oakland. Little did she know it would be the first step to becoming part of James Ray's inner circle.

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I'm Marissa Jones, host of the vanished firm Gundry. Each week on the Vanished. We take you beyond the headlines and explore a different missing persons case. Speaking with family, friends, law enforcement and experts this week, we're covering the disappearance of Jacob Cavanaugh. Back in March of 2010, Jacob was playing for his big golf with some friends in Traverse City, Michigan. He told them that he was going home to finish an assignment for one of his college courses.

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Jacob never made it home. And authorities followed his phone pings and debit card transactions all the way from Michigan to Texas. And then it all just stopped a couple days after Jacob was last seen.

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This case is a puzzling mystery because no one has any clue why he would have made that journey or what may have happened to Jacob. To hear Jacob story and many more subscribe to the vanished on Apple podcast Spotify or add free on wonder re plus swimsuits and boogie boards or hiking boots and fishing poles.

[00:15:27]

Look. Whatever your summer plans are wondering, he has a summer vacation playlist just for you. Do you prefer an excursion and the great outdoors? Well, our show American History Tellers does to listen in as they explore the rich history of how America's expansive national park system came to be. Or maybe you're looking for more meaningful stories to keep you entertained on your relaxing beach day. Imagined life takes you along the journey of an inspiring public figure. Wonder who shows will keep you entertained all summer long.

[00:15:57]

I promise. Search for Wonderings Summer Vacation Playlist only on Spotify. It was one of those chain hotels, hard carpet's constructed for heavy traffic, long straight hallways with rows of doors on opposing sides. Conference rooms with high ceiling chambers that absorbed loud sounds. Laura sat in the back of the room and watched as hundreds of people nodded their heads in unison to everything.

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James Ray said the way that he had put the experience together, everything was top notch. The production of it, the workbooks, the way he was able to weave story in to the learnings. James was a great storyteller. His events often followed the same pattern, even down to his appearance. James's signature look was a white, buttoned down dress shirt, a pair of black slacks and a silver thumb ring. He would also tell the same stories. Each one ending with a moral or lesson like the one about a kid who was bullied all through high school until the day he got a gym membership.

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We took this membership. We went to the gym. It was amazing. It's amazing what started to happen in his body.

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That young man bought himself a motorcycle, a Kawasaki ninja, a sport bike that's light, fun and fast. James would lift his hands in front of him and mime riding a bike.

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If you see these crotch rocket, right. One evening he took his new ride out for a spin. He came around a hard right hand corner, as he did. There's a set of headlights coming straight towards him and there was nowhere to go.

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He woke up in the emergency room, spent six weeks in intensive care, and then things spiraled. Soon, James said he had gone from being a strong young man to a small and frightened human being. James would pace on stage his head down, shaking it from side to side.

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There was one particular day he was laying on the couch. Television was on, but he wasn't really paying attention. And a thought in the form of a question came into his mind.

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He'd crouch down and lean in closer to the audience as though the question was also for them. Are you any different?

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Inside your values, your capabilities, your dreams, your hopes, your desires.

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Now, James would stand and back up as he built his finale. The young man realized he was still the same person he'd always been. But now he had to do things differently.

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He became a voracious reader. Over the next several years, he read literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of books in every great field. He studied all the great spiritual traditions. Everything changed everything. By this time, James would always be center stage. He'd get quiet for a moment. His eyes would well up as he looked at the audience and then revealed the man in the story was. Yep, you guessed it.

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I had to remember who I am. I had to remember I'm not this body. I have a body. I'm not my limitations and lack. I'm more than that.

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The story would usually end in a standing ovation. Laura was riveted by James and she found herself opening up to the people around her during his talks.

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James assigned exercise's to the audience. First, they had to choose partners. James would ask them, have you discovered that one on one connection with your creative source? Be specific. He'd say. Then he'd ask them to describe to their partners what inspired them, what their goals were.

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If those goals involved money, he'd ask them to be exact. In your mind, how much money would you need to earn per year to be successful? Now, how are you going to do that? How will you direct your energy toward making that happen? Then he'd get more personal.

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Tell the person beside you who you've never met before. What year? Quote unquote. Good story is James explained that your good story was an excuse that you gave yourself about why you weren't living the life you wanted when it was time to share her good story. Laura turned to the person next to her. My good story was that I was never going to be able to do enough, you know? How much more do I need to do in order to be happy, in order to see myself as successful?

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And even that simple practice of turning to somebody who's as neutral as neutral can be because they don't know you. And then hearing yourself say that crap and holy like that's the first time I've ever said that outside of my head. Clearly, this needs to be looked at. By the end of that weekend, Laura was in. She wanted to be in James's world and not just by going to the occasional seminar. Laura saw a bigger opportunity. I was starting to really understand that there was something on the other side of this for me within James's environment.

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He was rapid growing. You know, his. I think he was maxed out. He was doing all of these live events with hundreds of people.

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She joined a group that James called his dream team, a kind of ambassador group for James. They would work with participants at his events. You could tell that someone was a dream team member because of their bright blue T-shirts.

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You would go to the back of the room at these events and you would talk to a quote unquote, coach or a dream team member because he can't talk to five hundred people himself. This was early 2009 and the Great Recession had hit businesses hard, including Lauras. And things in my work environment became a lot more challenging all at once because the bottom fell out of the industry. It was highly affected. She wasn't sure how much longer she'd have a job at a car dealership.

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So she started to think that maybe she could transition into a new life, the life of a self-help teacher, the life of somebody like James. And so that's where I was getting more and more involved because I wanted to see if I could make something out of it for myself. Laura was naturally ambitious. She saw an opportunity with James. James would tour the country giving free two hour workshops. And during breaks is where dream team members like Laura would pitch more intensive paid events with James.

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Predominantly, the goal is to enroll people in the workshops because the workshops are high ticket. And then another opportunity to sell that. The books, the DVD, the the additional services coaching, you name it.

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Laura was OK with James's business model. She earned a commission every time that someone signed up with her to attend the paid events.

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I think when you're giving a free event or if you're attending a free event, you better know and be OK with the fact that just by showing up, there's tacit approval to be pitched to you because, you know, there is no free in business if it's a business. There's got to be money somewhere. Otherwise, it's a church. Laura had fun that year. She learned about herself. She grew from James's teachings, pushed herself. Each seminar she went to had a different focus and flavor mindfulness, spiritual growth, financial strength.

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And she was exploring a potential new career.

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And it really for me, it was this wonderful combination of travel because some of the locations like Lake Tahoe and eventually Sedona, they were on my list of places to go. The promised spiritual warrior was that it was going to be unlike any of the other events. The more Detective Ross Diskin learned about the self-help industry in James Ray's role in it, the more perplexed he found himself.

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I wasn't able to see any benefit that anybody involved with this was getting. These people were paying massive amounts of money to go to these events. And I just didn't understand it. I didn't understand why there was a need for this.

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He spoke to Laura Tucker and to many others. It took hours upon hours of interviews before he felt like he really got it.

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These are people that, you know, are looking for something. They're looking for something to help. And when a really good speaker gets in front of them and basically says that they have the answer to their problems and, you know, follow me and the things in your life will be better. I could see the attraction there, why people would do it. But there were still things that didn't add up. What they were not able to tell us is where James Ray learned how to do these things, like the vision quest or the sweat lodge.

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Nobody really seemed to know where he got his credentials to do this. Wonderings audio drama Blood Ties is back for a second season with Josh Gad and Gillian Jacobs returning as Michael and Eleanor Richland. If you haven't had a chance to check out season one, The Wall Street Journal said it's the kind of character driven story that fits right in with a true crime mini series. Typical of wondering. It has all the trimmings of a premium television drama wrapped up in a powerful podcast.

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Make sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, where you can listen early and ad free by starting your free trial of wondering plus in the new Wonder app. Download it today.

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By now you've been introduced to James Arthur Ray, whose methods pushed some to their limits, giving them the transformative experience they dreamed of and killing others. What was the fallout of the Spiritual Warrior retreat? What happened to the victims and to James Arthur Ray? To find out right now, binge. All six episodes add free by starting your 30 day free trial of wondering plus in the new Wonder app. Download the app today. One of the key interviews for Detective Deskins investigation wasn't a follower of James.

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It was the woman who ran the Sedona Retreat Center at Angel Valley where Spiritual Warrior was held, a Myra Hamilton.

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I think I attended to total of maybe 20 or so sweat lodges in different places. My experience, personal experience and my knowledge was that, you know, if you if you use common sense sweat lodge can be just a great experience. You know, there's nothing dangerous about it. So when James Ray called a Myra in 2003 requesting to run a sweat lodge ceremony, she was all for it. So despite such that we had at the time was about suitable for 20, 25 people and was billed by Native American people because they knew how to do it.

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We didn't. If a sweat lodge ceremony took place here, then it was somebody who knew how to lead. A sweat lodge would lead it. And in the particular case with James Ray, he decided he could do that. He told us that he had been studying this shamans in the room. OK, well, go ahead. They will provide what you need. And go ahead and do it.

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That was the first sweat lodge that James conducted at Angel Valley. He did another in two thousand five. Now, it was a little different in 2005 and 2005. He came as a larger group.

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And right away a mirror noticed problems. I was around during the actual activity and then when they came out. There was one guy who was not in order. He was not good. He was he was outside of himself.

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A mirror approached the man and tried to bring him back to reality. But that didn't work. In the meantime, James had left the area, went to his room. And I just kind of. Are you crazy? So I took my golf clubs, went swimming to James. That this one guy, he is. He is not. He needs attention. He needs care.

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She was shocked to find that James was dismissive. The conversation quickly escalated. There was a huge, big conflict because I said, you can't do this. He told me, shut up. Don't mess with my things here. And then he yelled at me that I should stay out of it. But she didn't. Instead, a mirror picked up the phone and dialed nine one one. I said, James, this never, ever again. I mean, if you do you ceremonies with that kind of intensity that people just, you know, start to lose it.

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Then you go too far. You do not do that anymore. But the next year, James's organization contacted Angel Valley again asking to host another sweat lodge. At this point, his organization was bigger and so was hers. Instead of talking directly to James, Myra's manager was talking with his staff. She wasn't as hands on, but she thought her message had gotten through. She didn't want to repeat the awful scene from 2005. She didn't want to take such big risks again.

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In 2006, we had the impression that it to a smile. Look, we. I just thought he would have learned from this experience that he would have said, oh, my gosh, no, this should not be. That's what I get. Maybe that's was a little a little naive to think that he would get that. James came back in 2007 and again in 2008. Things weren't so mild. As he listened to a mirror and then started talking with others, Ross started hearing a pattern.

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For one thing, it was clear that whatever James was running, it wasn't a sweat lodge.

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And there were so many people that were calling in to talk to me about the sweat lodge case. Native Americans were calling, saying, you can't call this a sweat lodge. It's not a sweat lodge with James Ray did.

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And they were very upset that we even refer to this as the sweat lodge. It wasn't our terminology. There's James Ray's terminology.

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A true sweat lodge, Ross learned, was a Native American ceremony, usually for a much smaller group of people and run by native spiritual leaders. What James did was better described as a heat endurance challenge, but even the fact that he was taking that term and making it mean what he wanted. Ross believed that was part of a pattern, too, from what I could see.

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James Reid wanted things his way and we get very upset if things didn't happen exactly his way and he would do things the way he wanted, regardless of any warnings from anybody else or hear any suggestions from anybody else.

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On October 14th, 2009, just six days after James his lethal heat challenge, Ross and his small team arrived in Carlsbad, California, a wealthy beach community about 35 miles north of San Diego. James Ray International, or J.R.? I sat on a cul de sac, often asphalt street that had recently been paved. The detectives walked into the two storey building. The entrance to JRA Suite one oh four was on the bottom floor on its wooden door at face height.

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Someone had taped an all caps computer printed message. Please direct all media inquiries to our Public Relations Council with a name. Email a number to call. Inside at the front desk sat a young woman. She had the phone to her ear as the detectives entered a wide eyed look of shock on her face. Left of the desk, a plush brick colored chair next to a glass coffee table, holding a copy of James's harmonic wealth book Behind the receptionist, a wall painted rust adorned with the JRA logo to her right, a short hallway with a conference room on one side and offices on the other as the detectives entered.

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People poked their heads out of office doors in the hallway. All of them were under 40. Ross gathered. He announced himself and showed his badge. Ross was there to execute a search warrant. He walked into James's office, affixed to a wall next to his desk, hung a framed copy of Oprah's O magazine with James on the cover. It wasn't real. Oprah is the only person who ever appears on the cover of each issue. In another frame on the wall in his office, James had mounted and vertically arranged a collection of business cards.

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Rockefeller, Thomas Edison, Howard Hughes, Henry Ford and at the bottom, James, his own business card. The next in a line of American business titans. Then they found a collection of manuals in the closet. There were things like what's called the Samurai Game, which was a mainstream corporate exercise to work on team building. And James Ray was not authorized to use that game, which was copyrighted. There were other exercises like Hollard, Tropic Breth work that James Ray was not authorized to teach or or to use while they searched.

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Everyone kept quiet.

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Initially, the generator national employees did not want to talk to us until there were lawyers involved that could set up free talks, that would give them immunity. So a lot of the top officials were given immunity in exchange for telling us what happened.

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Ross ended up interviewing a handful of JRA employees.

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In hindsight, when people die at an event, it triggers people to think about that. And how did this happen? And so that triggered memories of other events where James Ray was reckless and disregard of people's safety. Ross tried to conceal his disbelief.

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It didn't appear to me that anybody, even some of his top employees, felt comfortable questioning anything that he was doing.

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It was something that had bothered Ross about the people in Sedona to why had people stayed in James Ray's so-called sweat lodge?

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Even when it was obviously dangerous, the details were important because initially it appeared that people stayed inside the sweat lodge voluntarily until they cooked it. That's what we thought. We thought that this was not a criminal case that these people just stayed in until they died.

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But as the investigation stretched on Ros's, a few. Changed. We realized that it really wasn't their decision to stay in. They were conditioned that whole week to do what James Ray said. And we learned that just prior to the sweat lodge. James Ray told them what to experience in the sweat lodge and what they would feel. And he told them that they would feel like they're going to die. They're going to feel like their skin is burning. It's gonna be so hot that they're going to pass out.

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And so he took he basically lined out the symptoms of heat stroke to them and presented that as if that were the desired effect. And so when participants began having those symptoms of heat stroke, they believe that they were. This was the desired effect, that they were achieving what they were supposed to in the sweat lodge. And at some point, people passed out. And once you pass out, you can't make the decision whether or not you want to leave.

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If 2009 was his very first sweat lodge and people died, that's a complete game changer. But he should have known from 2005 and 2008 that these people could die in the sweat lodge. This was so extreme. And he any reasonable person who saw what happened in 2005, 2008, would know that if you do it again in 2009, somebody could die.

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On February 3rd, 2010, Ross, his team made the call to James, his lawyer. A warrant had been issued for James, his arrest. A sheriff's deputy arrived at the squat blue building in Prescott, where James and his lawyer were waiting. James wore a jeans and a black coat that day. The deputy shackled his hands in front of his body, not behind from the sheriff's office. They drove east to the Yavapai County Detention Facility. A single news cameraman had been tipped off about the arrest and caught the image right around nightfall of James walking calmly from the SUV to the front door of the jail.

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At his side was Ross Deskin in a blue shirt and striped tie, looking, determined and gesturing toward the entrance.

[00:37:52]

Nearly four months after his controversial sweat lodge ceremony, self-help guru James Arthur Ray has been arrested on three counts of manslaughter. Liz Neuman, James Shaw and Kirby Brown, the people who had died during Spiritual Warrior. Now, James would have to answer for their deaths in court. If convicted on all charges, he could receive up to 36 years behind bars. But the outcome would come down to knowing what exactly happened at Spiritual Warrior and inside James, his so-called sweat lodge.

[00:38:28]

And that would depend on the people who were there. People like Laura Tucker. I knew by virtue of having spoken out that both the prosecution and the defense would want me at trial. I also knew that I was under no obligation whatsoever to go. But I did. I wanted there to be some kind of positive or constructive resolution. I wanted somebody to be able to articulate it. And part of me wanted to be that person. Ginny Brown would also be there to see justice for her daughter, Kirby.

[00:39:10]

This was not a freak accident. These actions on his part created the conditions that made death in that event inevitable. And then when people were in distress, he did not help them. That's on the next episode of Guru. From one to three, this is Episode three of six of Guru.

[00:39:40]

A story about the dangers and the dark side of enlightenment. The next episode will be out in a week. But if you want to listen right now, all six episodes are available on one Diri plus and on the Wonder app. If you want to help us spread the word, please give us a five star rating and a review on Apple podcasts. And be sure to tell your friends. Subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, the Wonder App or wherever you're listening right now.

[00:40:07]

Join. Wonder E-Plus in the Wonder app to listen ad free. In the episode notes you'll find some links and offers from our sponsors. Please support them. Another way you can support the show is by filling out a small survey at Wunder eCom slash survey for more detail on James Arthur Ray and the scandal that shocked the self-help industry. Check out the podcast Real Crime Profile. As professional criminal profilers and analysts, they break down the criminal behavior of James Arthur Ray to figure out what he was thinking and why he did what he did in these pivotal moments.

[00:40:43]

You can find real crime profile on Apple podcasts and Spotify or add free on the Wonder app. This episode was written and reported by me. Matt Stroud, associate producer, is a SEAL Kepi story editor is Casey Miner, Sound Design by Jeff Schmidt. Fact checking by Sarah Maclure. Producer is Alex Jor Blonsky, managing producer is Lata Punya and executive producers are George Lavender, Marschall Lui and Hernan Lopez for wondering.