I don't even know how we start this.

I know. It's like, are we going to have a version of...

I mean, maybe this is the start.

Oh, is the podcast starting? I listen to a lot of podcasts, interview podcasts. They do that. They do that.

And then some- Then there's music that comes in.

And then the guy is like, oh, we already started. The one's like, Yeah, because this is how it goes. So is this entertaining?

Tbd.

Anyway. Tbd. Hey, everybody.

Hey. So obviously this has got a different vibe than the last episode, episode three. And that's because this is an interregnum.

An interregnum.

This is not your father's interregnum, however. No, we had a couple of these when we started the season before we knew what we were really doing.

Now we know what we're really doing.

If you're looking for a podcast experts, just don't call us, but just know that we're out there, Darren and I are.

No, don't call us. Make a podcast, and we'll listen to it. We'll answer questions in our podcast.

We're not going to provide any advice directly or anything like that. No, no, no. These interregnums are going to be coming at you. Every other week. Every other week. We're going to be releasing one of our main episodes, and then we're going to release these. What these are going to be are going to be a lot more-Very entertaining, first of all. Well, as you can already tell.

Evidenced by the moment.

They're going to be a lot more informal than the episodes in the main story line.

What we're going to be doing is reflecting on and going deeper into the episode that you just heard. You just heard episode three last week or whenever you-We're going to talk a little bit about that.

We're also going to share extended interviews that we couldn't find good places for, but stuff that we really love from the previous episode.

We're also just going to get into this podcast has really taken on a life of its own. It's become this much larger beast than we imagined in terms of people that we've heard from and impacts that it's on our lives. We are going to keep you abreast of those things and really get into that in these bi weekly interregnums.

We're probably going to bring my mom in quite a bit.

Absolutely. Sandy is the real star of the show. Let's be honest.

That's why people are really here. Did we even introduce ourselves with our names?

I don't believe so.

What is your name? I'm Danny Jacobs.

I'm Darren Grosky.

This is How to destroy everything, which is a podcast about my narcissistic father and the path of destruction that he wrought over the course of his life and my attempts to try to understand him, and in doing so, understand myself and as a new parent, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And speaking of all those et cetera, we just heard, our listeners just heard this episode three, in which I managed to get you virtually back into your childhood home.

I thought you were going to say, I managed to get you to cry.

Well, I did. I did do that. And that was my intention from the start. No, we discussed in the episode, a shocking moment. One thing I do have to say about that moment was when you started to break down, I was simultaneously feeling concerned about you as your friend, but also extremely excited for the podcast. I was a split personality where I was like, Oh, is Danny okay? Wow, this is good.Oh.

This is good stuff.This is good stuff.

This is good content. It's good stuff. Yeah. I don't know if any part of you was that. No. No, you were having a genuine emotion experience.

I was. Who knows? Maybe somewhere deep inside there I was. But it's true. You're a performer. That's the weird part about this. Right, exactly. Which is, there is... Yes, I'm a performer. We are storytellers. We are writers. We are always thinking about narrative structure.

Which makes this format hard, by the way, because it's like, sometimes I'm in an interview and in my mind, I'm writing it how I want it to go. It turns out people have agency, and they don't respond always in the exact way that you want them to.

Sure. It's hard to control other people, you're saying. Yeah, real tough. But I do think that's a constant tension for both you and I as we're making this podcast.

Don't speak for me.

Which is the effort to try to have a genuine experience and genuinely explore this while also keeping in mind, oh, gosh, this needs to have a shape, and needs to have a conclusion that makes sense, and this needs to further the narrative, whatever that means. You know what I mean? Especially me, my emotional journey doesn't... Emotional journeys in real life don't follow the three-act structure. No, they do not.

Frustratingly, that's true.

That is a tension that I think we're constantly dealing with, and there's an element of creation in that. I think one of the ways that we're dealing with that is through these narrative scenes by giving a chance to really just control an emotional beat. But we are open clearly to going where the podcast takes us because episodes two and three were never our intention from the start.

It was only because we had received that message from Chloe and we went back to the house and wound up having this genuine emotional journey. I mean, episode three was insane.

If I were to write the story of this, it would be that that emotional catharsis wouldn't have occurred until three quarters of the way through the season. It was way too soon.

It was way too soon. You're right.

It was way too soon. Now, who's to say that there won't be more of that? But just still, it felt like a lot early.

But sometimes stories surprise us. Yeah, that's true. It surprised us. Yeah.

Maybe this will help us as writers to break out of a stayed structure. Get out of these patterns.

Oh, God. Act one, act two, act three? No, shut up. Just tell the story. Anyway, there was more that we left on the proverbial cutting room floor from that episode. I was in that room with you virtually for two hours. It was a remarkable experience. Because we couldn't fit everything into the tight narrative that we put together in episode three, we did want to share with you a little bit more of that party, a little extended interview. They're beeping. Okay, cool. Okay, so will you introduce yourself?

Hi, I'm Sheryl Williams. I introduced myself earlier. I live in the Cooper's house. Yes. We moved in 94. I don't know exactly what year this happened, but we put up Christmas lights, and it wasn't an extensive amount of Christmas lights. It didn't look like Christmas vacation or anything, but just a normal amount of Christmas lights, and they were cut. It was clear that they were cut. We put out a nice little note in everybody's mailbox, from the end the street, so the Bater's up to as you go up the hill. So just like, say, I don't know, these 12 houses right in this area. We explained that our Christmas lights had been cut, and if anybody knew or had seen anything, just to let us know, and we left our phone number. And we signed our name. So we signed my husband and I's name, and we left our phone number. We failed to put the address of our house because everybody, I assumed, we'd lived here long enough that everybody knew who we were. We got one voicemail back, and it was left on our home voicemail. It didn't say who called. It was a man that called.

It didn't say who called. It said that he has cameras, and that if we would have left the address, he would have been able to help us. But since we didn't leave the address of the house, the next seven minutes of the voicemail message were how to hotwire Christmas lights so that And the next time it happened, it would knock the person on their ass. And so this was the best Christmas we've ever had, because this was like old school voicemail. And so every time, every time somebody came to our house, we were like, Wait, you got to hear our Christmas message. That's phenomenal. And we played that message at nauseam and just and loved it because because it was our Christmas Eve message. The people that came over, it was very entertaining as to how to hotwire our Christmas lights, which we never did.

I was going to ask if you took his advice.

I never did. I didn't take his advice and do that.

Sure that he must have cut them.

No, I don't think he cut them. You don't think so? No, I don't think he cut them at all. No, I don't think it was him that cut them. I actually think it was probably- Because they've been cut since he passed away. They've been cut since he passed away.

I feel like it's like a neighbor type.

I think it's just an obnoxious type thing. No, I don't think he cut him. I think he just taught us how to hotwire him. I did learn that from your dad. Right?

I have memories of your mom coming to the house and talking to me in the kitchen one day?

I feel like she was telling me that you couldn't play together anymore. I'd love to talk to your mom and see how… I can't remember what happened, but it was my mom. The why. It was interesting.

Sandy came and told you that the kids couldn't play together.

Yes, I believe so.

Because I can only remember coming over here once.

Yeah.

There's a lot of wiring coming out of the walls, and you're like... And the holes in the walls. Even as a very small kid, you're like…

That's I just remember being in the family room where I remember the TV was set up and everything because we once had ours the same place. And it was just very dark, the dark paneling walls that we all had back then and the dark carpet and everything. It was just very dark. And I do I remember in the kitchen, there was a big hole in the wall or something where a fish tank was being built.

That's exactly right.

But it never worked, but it was a big piece of- It was never finished.

The fish tank was- It was glass. Even when it was- There was stuff in it, wires and boxes in it, but it wasn't functioning.

That's right.

It was a function.

It was a whole thing when we came in. After the guy bought it and all of the phone almost looked like an old-time operators switchboard down in that cubby.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, there was.

There's It was about 20.

Wait, was it coffee in the basement?

Oh, there are two rooms in the basement. The cut out where the chimney goes into the basement had, I'll say between 40 and 50 phone line, phone jacks.

40 to 50?

And then power, and then a matching number of outlets below it.

What? So wait, did you know the chimney?

Because there's a fireplace down there today.

Oh, is there? Yeah. The rehab guy put a fireplace. So there was literally 40 outlets and 40 phone jacks.

These 40 different phone lines.

Yeah, I assume.

Because didn't you say it had 60 numbers?

It looked like a switchboard and it had numbers.

Maybe it was 60. It was a lot. It was a lot.

So after the rehabber bought the house, they did an estate sale or something.

Do you still have that closet downstairs in the basement?

We all came through here because we were also curious. Of all the different things that he had, I guess, horted and selling, all the different computer parts and wiring. I just remember coming through here, there was just stuff everywhere. It was just a paper.

So many boxes.

On the cedar closet in the basement, if I remember this correctly, the pin for the bolts for the hinges is internal to the door. Yes. Which is so that you can't knock it out unless you're inside. That's what you would do in a classified safe or other. Because I worked in military stuff, and that's what you would do if you were in a classified area. Someone from the outside of the room could not-Interesting. Break it open. Break it open at all. In any way.

That was the two rooms in the back of the basement. Yeah, there were two You look at that room and you're like, That's for somebody that doesn't want anybody to get in there for anything.

I never knew about either of these.

I have memories of two or three times being up at 3:00 in the morning. Just, yeah. For no reason, whatever. I would walk down the hall and I would see a truck in the front of the house. Then it was a Keith's room. I'd stand there and I'd listen, and you could hear people talking for probably 3-5 minutes. They would stop and you hear a lot of… Then they'd drive off. That probably happened at least three times. But they were delivering something. They were delivering. There was an exchange going on.

Well, semis would come down our street thinking there was a place of business here because I'm sure he was whatever was being- Looking for a warehouse.

Big 18-wheelers. Yeah.

They were looking for their one.

We're trying to find how you can get down the street. I know. That seems like it.

No, you have to back up.

You be backing up. It'd be a bad day for that driver. But they thought it It was a place of business.

When I was always- house. Then Danny's dad would be out there at 3:00 in the morning interacting.

Yeah, they would hear. Wow. No, I'm sure he was because there was talking. I could hear exchanges, but it was very quick. I have no idea what they said. Right. But no, it was really interesting. Then they would fly off.

It was just- Danny, do you remember your dad addressing things to your house as the One Past?

Yes.

The Fuchs house? Yeah. Everything in the was the One Past. Because there was no number on the box. No way. It was the Royal Manor. I thought it was the Royal Manor. It was the Royal Manor, but it's the one past one, two, six, whatever their number is.

That's how we would order pizza when we were in high school. There you go. Because you can't say the Royal Manor. That means nothing to them. How? We would order pizza delivery, and we would tell them the next door house and be like, It's the one past that. It's the one next door. It's the one place that delivers pizza.

My dad would tell stories of many times where a repairman or a contractor of some sort would be coming around looking to get paid and be unsuccessful. But I'm like, You're screwed. Not that while. You're not going to get you.

You're not going to find them. Man, I haven't heard those interviews since we did them.

It goes on and on. Even that is still just a selection of the stories that we heard at this party.

Yeah. One of the cool things, I think, to just highlight is the way that... Because you guys heard that story in there about the neighbor hearing these trucks rumbling down the street in the middle of the night, delivering these big things, which turns out they were oxygen tanks. But that is where we got the idea to do that narrative scene for the beginning of episode three.

That's right. We go through all of this material and try to figure out what works as a narrative scene and what should be in interview form or us talking about it.

It's also, hopefully, you start to see we're not making up of those narrative scenes. Our narrative scenes are based on real experiences that people had, or I had, or somebody had about my family and my dad.

Yes. I mean, obviously, with the creative license within the scenes themselves, we're trying as best we can to be truthful in everything that we depict.

Yeah, I mean, there's things we don't know, and so there's things that we're filling in the gaps creatively to make it work.

We certainly have a lens through which we view the characters of this story. A hundred %. I'm sure that were Richard alive, his lens would be quite different.

Yeah, I wonder what that would be.

What would your dad's version of that delivery scene be?

Well, I don't know, but I would imagine there would be conquering hero music, and the neighbors would be lined up on the streets just giving him a standing ovation, apropos of nothing.

I mean, he always had an explanation for anything that he did. I feel like his version would be like, Well, here's the innocent version of this. Yeah, exactly.

His version would be like, Guys, this is not dramatic in any way. It's just me just getting a delivery. It's not a big deal.

There was some, whatever, it was in It was 95 degrees out, super hot. The oxygen tanks would not have been preserved or whatever. They would have whatever heat does the oxygen tank. Expanding them. In the middle of the night, it's cooler. Yeah, it's cooler. That's all.

It's perfectly innocent. Anyway, Or cheaper. Maybe it was cheaper to get them delivered in the middle of the night.

That's right. Exactly.

But this goes, I think, also to something we wanted to get into in this Interregnum, which is just generally a little bit more detail in terms of our process and what thatHow that connects to where have we been for the last nine months.

That's really, I think, the main topic of today's Interregnum is because when last we spoke, it was last year.

I think we said something like, Hey, episode three is coming in a couple of days, or something like that, and then just radio silence.

Let me just say that having to go radio silent like that was awful.

It was very, very hard.

It just felt like we knew you were out there, listeners.

Do you know how we know? Because you let us know.

Well, yeah, you made us well aware that you were out there.

There are two comments that I want to highlight that I remember.

I think I know what you're going to say.

That are firmly stuck in my brain, which is one, somebody commented and said, This show should be called How to Lose an Audience. Brilliant, by the way.

I think it was How to destroy an Audience.

How to destroy an Audience.

Which is way better. They're better than you are coming up with that.

No, no, no. Well played. Touche, sir. Well played. Because that really cuts to the quick. The other one that I remember was someone that just devastatingly wrote, Clearly the apple doesn't fall far. I was like, Oh, man. Yeah, there have been a few people that have been sure that what this was was some huge grift. Like a con. Yeah, that I was like my dad and that we were...

You got them. You hooked them only to betray them by disappearing into the night.

Yeah, and that was... I mean, look, I'm saying this in jest, but it also was very hard to know that I was causing that reaction in people.

You know what I mean? Well, and also, I mean, it's just like we had episode three the whole time.

We had it in the can, yeah.

It was ready to go. But here's the thing.

We started this whole thing having zero idea what we were doing. Yes.

Which, by the way, is impressively dumb because we're not people who are unfamiliar with podcasts.

No, I listen to a ton of them.

So many of them. And one about them is they all do have a regular cadence.

Well, I think, look, I think part of this, honestly, was-Here comes an excuse. No, but we have always wanted to make this into a television show. Excuse. We had written a TV pilot ahead of this, and there was part of us that was like, Okay, let's just make one episode as a proof of concept so people can get the vibe and the tone of what a TV show version of this might be. Correct.

We didn't know that people would actually like it.

I don't think we even necessarily had it in our minds for sure that we were going to actually make an entire season.

Oh, I can say with pretty confidence, certainty, that we were not planning on making the entire season. This This is when we made episode one.

Well, then what happened was we made episode one, and then somebody at Apple had heard the podcast and we're like, Hey, we want to highlight this, but you should make an episode two. And we're like, Okay. All right. So we did. So we did. So we made episode two, and then we were like, All right, that should be enough. Yeah, that's done. They get it. We don't need ads on this or anything, right? Honestly, because we didn't do it to try to make money or anything. We really didn't. That was not the intention.

We've never done anything in our careers for money, and it shows.

It really shows. It's really our ethos. You know how Google started with the Don't be evil? We said, Don't make money. Don't make money. That's the Danny and Darren way.

We're keeping it up. Doing great.

This is the way. Anyway, that just made me think of Mondalorian. I'm in Mondalorian.

Wow. What a douchebag you are.

I just wanted to explain why it doesn't matter. Oh, God.

You can see Danny in the Madalorian. Will you make any money? Give them some residuals.

I'll give it away because I don't make any money.

Anyway, so the point is that we had those two episodes and we did make episode three when the podcast blew up.

God, I hope we can cut out that Madalorian part.

We're leaving it in. We're 100% leaving that in. Oh, my goodness. One of your shining moments, in fact, I think. I look forward to comments on that.

God, he is a narcissist.

Anyway, so we had episode three, but what we realized was that if we were going to continue at the pace that we were going, we were going to be releasing a new episode basically every 6-8 weeks, which is insanity.

The thing is, it might have been six weeks, then the next one might have been eight weeks, then the next one might have been seven, nine, who knows? Because it was just like these episodes take a ton of time for us to get ready.

Well, let's talk about that for a minute because This episode right here, the Interregnum, is mostly you and I talking in a studio.

Yeah, with some interviews and things like that.

But the main episodes, as everyone knows who's heard them, is a combination of these narrative scenes, interviews, us talking. It is actually quite labor-intensive. That's in part because the way we're doing this is in our efforts to be truthful and to be comprehensive, we are sifting through literally thousands of pages of documents that we have, hours and hours of interviews that we've done. It's just you and me and our intrepid producer, Michael Grant-Terry. We are having to do that. Just to give you, audience, a preview, at the moment, even though you're listening to this Interregnum after episode three, we are also writing episode eight. We are now ahead of the game. I was just working on episode eight, and the amount of interview transcripts, documents, and other things that I have go through when I'm working on that is- Woe is me, Daren. Yeah, I mean, I'm not in the mandalorian. I'm not in the mandalorian, okay? Danny's off shooting the mandalorian, and I'm reading freaking documents. I mean, how's that fair?

Listen, the original sin here was our decision, our inspiration early on that we were going to base the format of this. Basically, we got inspired by this. There's this docuseries on Netflix that Errol Morris made called Wormwood, which incorporates- Are you in Wormwood, Danny? I am not. It's about serial killers, if I remember correctly, or something. Violence of some kind. Anyway.

Violence of some kind.

That's a good name for a movie title, Violence of some kind.

How about a history of violence?

Okay.

Is it Cronenberg?

No, it's a good movie. It's a great movie. Weren't they supposed to make a sequel?

Anyway, Derek- You're way off the rails here.

Let me focus. In Wormwood, what we got inspired by was the fact that Morris uses recreated scenes that are done really well, interviews, talking heads. It's all of the documentary tools and even some fictional tools at his disposal he used. That's what we wanted to do with this. That is a very labor-intensive process. We have these narrative scenes that involve getting our actors together and writing those and recording those. Yes. And those are very sonically dense to try to really give the vibe of what's going on.

And then you I have the documentary aspect. In our entire careers, as I've watched documentaries, I have remarked myself again and again, thank God we don't make documentaries.

We don't make documentaries.

I know, dude. Because it's just like you gather all this footage and it's so daunting to look through all this footage and figure out what it is. Now, God damn it, we're doing it, and it is so hard.

I knew there was a reason why we didn't want to do documentaries.

They don't want to hear us. No, they don't.

They complain about this. What I will say is, one of the things I do want to say is one of the... Oh, sorry, you were going to say something.

I don't know what I was going to say, but no, I do. What I was going to try to bring us to the whole set up here, the situation. So I don't know if yours is relevant.

It's tangential.

Okay, so the point is, it takes a long time to do each episode. We did not want to have this sporadic release schedule. We were also speaking with companies that were going to help us in terms of going legit. And it was very clear to us that we needed to set things up so that we could release on a weekly basis. And that is what we've been doing. We have been getting ahead of this thing. Yeah. We're, as I mentioned, working on episode 8 right now so that you can expect every Tuesday in your feed, here comes how to destroy everything.

Yeah. Another thing that's been going on over the last six months is we've been fielding and figuring out, I think, what it is that we do want to do and don't want to do in regards to this universe. Somebody approached us about doing a book. We got approached about doing a docuseries. We really wrest. I I think, well, I think I really wrestled. I think, Darren, you purposely took a step back in terms of some of those opportunities that came along, recognizing rightly that if whatever we were going to do, I needed to make sure that I was on board with it first.

Well, this is your life. We've talked about this. This is your life and your trauma, and I certainly cannot imagine pressuring you to go deep into another format of this.

I think ultimately, we put the kibosh on on the docuseries idea because this is so hard. It's so hard to explore this stuff in my life without the veneer of fiction. The idea of climbing another mountain that was similar to that in another medium felt really too challenging for me. I desperately want to get back to the fiction stuff that we enjoy so much. Of course. Moving this into a fictional space is what I really desperately would love to do. Yes. Because one, that frees us up. Absolutely.

Where we can tell the story that we want to tell that's inspired by this and it doesn't have to be confined to the actual details.

Listen, I don't mean for this to become basically us saying, Hey, we don't want to do this podcast. No, no, not at all. That's not what we're saying.

No, and in fact, it's been a remarkable journey so far. Yeah. The The people who have reached out to us via our email address, I knowrichardjacobs@gmail. Com. And by the way, if anyone out there has more stories about Richard, please continue to email us because we have had some remarkable experiences talking to people, some of whom are going to be on the podcast later in the season, with their own stories about Richard. Years long legal battles they've engaged with Richard. Then we've heard from people who don't know you or Richard, but they were so moved by you and being so open that they felt compelled to share their stories with us, which has also been incredible. This podcast has become like, it's not something that we're just desperately trying to get rid of. No, not anymore. In fact, the opposite, I think, is the true- Well, and in fact, as we've been continuing to work on the fictional side of it, it is totally informed and changed that 180 degrees.

Yes.

You know, one thing, I have to go back for a second to when you were talking about these emails that came in, or these not emails, but this book and this docuseries, and and all of this fuss that there has been about this podcast over the last nine months. One thing that's just remarkable to me and continues to be is that all of this has happened after we released two episodes, two main episodes. As we sit here today recording this interregnum that you are all hearing after episode three, I don't even know how many of you are out there listening at this point. A lot of people listen to the first two episodes. There It's a huge fuss over it. Is the audience coming back?

Well, it's true. I don't know. It's a leap of faith that we're making. You know what? I'm honestly okay. If they don't, I'm okay.

We never expected them in the first place.

We never expected them in the first place. We I have found so much value in this. I have found so much emotional, personal value in this journey and how much it's changed me.

Our friendship, I think, has changed fundamentally. I don't like you anymore.

I used to like you, too.

Now this is purely a transactional- You're great on me. Stop saying great. To transactional transaction.

Yeah, exactly. Guys, the moment that When the mics turn off, we don't say a word.

Haven't spoken to you since the last episode was recorded. But in all seriousness, Danny, I feel like I have gotten such a better understanding of what you went through when we were kids. Things I I just I knew, I've said this before, I knew your dad was weird when I was eight years old, but I didn't really understand what was going on behind closed doors. Back to episode three, sitting there and listening to those stories, it was stunning to just get a glimpse of what it was like for you. I think that changes our dynamic on some level. Sure.

I see the value in that and also the challenge is It's like I'm walking around as a bit of an open wound, you know what I mean? Both in the world in general. That is really difficult, but ultimately, I think productive and helpful. I hope.

Yeah. I guess we'll see. We'll see. Listeners, thank you again for sticking with us in this long, long, long break.

I think what we probably want to do is maybe bring in my mom to find out what this last nine months has been like for her so we can catch up with her and just have a chat.

I love chatting with Sandy Jacobs.

Hello. How are you?

Fine. Can you hear me good?

I can, yeah. You said you had something you wanted to tell us about you just listened to episode three.

It was too long for one episode.

It just was too much for you.

It was too much at one time.

Here's the problem is that by the time that people are hearing us talk about this, it will already have aird. Yeah.

What we're doing now is the Interregnum after episode three. So they've all just listened to episode three a week ago, and now they're hearing you tell them that that episode was too long.

Oh, no. Oh, no. You can cut that out.

Oh, Mom.

No, we can't. We're raw here. We give them everything.

Mom, we're going to have to get your notes earlier so that we can incorporate them into the episodes. But I do think you're wrong.

Oh, okay.

But listen- I like that you and your mom be honest with each other. I appreciate the feedback, mom. It really means a lot. But you're just wrong.

Has it already episode?

Mom, you just got to understand that you know all that information. You know everything.

Oh, I didn't know everything.

Oh, you didn't?

No. What did you not know? What was new for you? What was the new stuff?

I didn't know what was in the basement. I didn't know that he had things like videos set up in everybody's room.

Well, maybe. We're not 100% sure on that, but maybe.

Yeah. I didn't know anything about what was in the attic, actually.

Yeah.

So that I didn't know.

Yeah.

And then I didn't know at all what the people were saying, those stories.

Speaking of, how was that for you to hear all of these former neighbors of yours talking about that stuff?

I think it was great, and I'll tell you why. Because at the time the things were happening that I was there, when I was actually living there, I felt like they were all snubbing me.

Really? Yeah. You felt outcasted.

Yes.

What about... Obviously, there was a point near the end there where I got emotional. What did you think of? How was that for you?

Did you... All right, are you going to get mad at me?

I know. I don't think so. What are you going to say? I wasn't sure if you were just acting or if it was real.

Wow. Wow.

Because I know- Wow.

First of all, that is a testament to how good of an actor your mom thinks you are. Secondly, to how infrequent such an emotional reaction that is for Danny because I was shocked by it. That's right. I was utterly shocked by it.

I know. It didn't seem like him. Just like if I started crying in the middle of it, I don't think you would think it was...

So you think your theory is that I I manufactured that to create a moment that is not real for this podcast?

It was real, but I didn't think that it was real. I thought you created it as an actor.

It was a fake, yeah.

Danny, how does it make you feel? Okay, so don't put this in there.

No, mom. Listen, we got to put- Hold on.

Danny, how does it make you feel that your mother- I mean, not good.

I I've never seen you cry over this stuff. But I think this talks, this speaks to... Well, let me first let me answer that to tell you that it was 100% real. Yes. And I think, though, I think that you're- Now I feel bad that I didn't think it was. Well, listen, I think that your reaction, though, is also, I don't know, it's a testament to something, which is that the adults in this situation when I was a kid, of course it's real. The Things that were being discussed were so clearly painful and tragic and dark. Of course, that would have a huge emotional effect on a child who lived in that environment.

No, not that I didn't think you as a child had a hard time. I knew you did.

You don't think that that would have any lasting effects on me as a grown up?

I didn't think that you… Just like I don't do it myself. I don't cry over the stuff that Richard did. Yeah. Yeah, I don't cry over it. If you had to- So you think that any display of emotion then is fake because you wouldn't have that exact display of emotion? No, I just didn't think that you did. I thought you were more like me.

Yeah. I mean, the truth is, though, Danny, I think that what Sandy is saying was right up until this. I've never... Have you often in your All your life cried over this stuff?

No, I haven't.

In fact, when I told you, one time I told you something that dad did, and I said, What's your reaction to that? And you said, I feel sorry for him.

When I was a child, you said? Yes. Well, I'm not. I'm a kid. Of course, I'm doing so many things in that moment. I'm trying to protect you, your emotions. That's what I would be doing as a child. That's trying to help you feel like this is all okay by telling that I'm okay.

Yeah.

Okay. That's a big part of all this.

Well, now I feel bad because I did the best I can trying to take you away from that, but I couldn't really because of dad, because of the lawsuits and stuff.

Yeah, I guess.

Do you feel like I didn't do enough? I felt like I did it until he was suing me all the time. He was taking you off out of the car and off the bus.

I felt like I couldn't- I think that you did the best that you could. Do I think it was enough? No. Do I think that you could have done more? No. I mean, you were doing the best that you could. It was not enough. It was both the best that you could do, and it was also not nearly enough. I know.

What could have I done?

Well, I'm saying I think you did the best that you could do. Yeah. But ultimately, I mean, look, there were so many times when I was a kid where I was making choices and saying things to protect and help you emotionally when it really should have been the other way around. I know. When I tell you I'm not like dad, I think the response, I mean, it's like that's me trying to cheer you up, trying to help you. I think that not nearly enough time was spent on the flip side, which is where it should have been because I was the child.

Yeah. Well, I know.

I don't know what- But as I'm saying, I don't blame you. The situation was fucked.

Ultimately, there was no way to stop Richard from doing all the things that he was doing.

But I mean, I would be lying if I said that I didn't have some anger towards you and to every adult in my life that I grew up with for not doing enough to protect me from that chaos.

Yeah, I know. I didn't know what else I could do.

No, I get it. I understand. It's not an easy I feel like I let you down. I think everybody did. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, yes. But at the same time, mom, you were doing the best that you were making every choice that you could possibly make. I don't know how it could have gone differently.

Let me ask you this, Sandy. Now, in retrospect, with the benefit of time looking back, is there anything that you would do differently?

I couldn't have because if I kidnapped you and took you out of state, that might have done it. But I couldn't... That's it. I couldn't have done that because he would have chased me down.

I can tell you what it would have been For me, it would have been not an action like that, but your emotional stability would have been... You many times were unable to be the adult emotionally in it. I oftentimes felt like it was my job to help you through it. For me, it wasn't about, Oh, you could have taken this action to to a different city. It had everything to do with just on a day-to-day basis being the solid rock that would have helped me more.

Well, I don't know how to do that.

I didn't know how to do that. I understand. Which is why I'm saying you did the best that you could given who you are.

And given the situation. I mean, like- And given the situation. Sandy is a person, and any person dealing with the onslaught that Richard unleashed, I think, is at time is going to struggle to be the solid rock adults.

A hundred %.

That's not just on who you are, Sandy. I don't know of anybody that would necessarily be able to withstand that unscathed.

I did try to do some things, like when you called and wanted me to... I could see that it was enough that you had, I would come over and pick you up and take you home, even though I knew Richard was going to be mad about that. I did stuff like that. I picked you up when I knew he wasn't going to go to events.

Because I would wait hours for him to pick me up somewhere.

That was a weird thing about Richard, by the way, is that he was so determined to have you and your brother, and yet he was just AWal for so many pickups and missing things and just they would get distracted by things.

Because the having us was in terms of victory. It wasn't...

You know what I mean? He didn't necessarily want to do all the things that that entailed.

Yeah, it's weird, though. Sometimes he did, so I don't know.

Can we go back... Let's go back to what you said earlier about the neighbors and how there was something gratifying about hearing them talk today because back then you felt shunned. Do you have any desire, having heard that now, to go back there and see any of those people and talk to them again, see the house again? Did you have any reactions like that?

Yeah, I I did, but I felt like if I thought to myself, Well, if I went up there and just asked them, Can I come in? They would say no.

But you felt the desire to. I mean, It would be in interest of yours.

Yes. But I feel like you'd have to set it up for me because I don't think they would do it just for me.

You think that if you went to that house and you said, I'm Danny's mom, and can I come in? You think that they would say no?

I think they would put me off.

Even now, even after hearing that episode?

Yeah, because I'm not you. I don't know if they'd have an interest in talking to me, and I don't know what I'd say, really.

Interesting.

Is it interesting, Danny?

What do you think about that, Derek?

I feel like that's not true. I think that if you drove over there right now.

Well, yeah.

And you explained, because they obviously are well aware of you. I mean- That they would say, yes, come in, take a look around.

I think not only... But I think the most interesting aspect of it, I do think it's interesting, Darren, is That is, yes, I think you're totally right. But what's also interesting is that my mom is somebody who hears that, and then her takeaway is, oh, they wouldn't let me in. You know what, Dani? That is interesting.

There's something that is- That is interesting.

That is interesting. Mom, that, I think, speaks to, I don't know, a real level of insecurity. Because to me, that interview is so filled with love and forgiveness and generosity of spirit.

It's just interesting to me. I just felt like instead of feeling the joy of all those people accepting me, I was thinking about instead the way they acted at the time, shunning me.

But not all of them. You're saying all of them? I thought it was just that one.

It was just that one, but all the other ones were invited to the shower.

But the other ones didn't shun you, the other neighbors.

Well, I never really talked to them that much.

So they didn't shun you. You just didn't have a relationship with them. No. Right. So you are over- They never came over, except for Debbie, across the street, they never really came over to be to do an...

Oh, except for also, Jill- Is this going to be a scene from the jerk?

Sorry, Sandy, what did you say?

Jill and Sejol and I forgot the boys.

Yeah, the Gandhis. But did you invite the other people over? No. Why would they come over?

You know how people used to bring over the Welcome Wagon. They didn't invite you over. But I mean, you You never interacted with, you didn't have friendly neighborly waves and conversations and whatnot with people? Just those two.

I wonder if what you're talking about, though, is really something that I've experienced, too, and I expressed in that interview, which is a guilt by association. You're talking about, Oh, they never came over. They did things. But clearly, of course, they would want to avoid dad, right? They wouldn't want to have anything to do with dad. In your mind, though, your association with him, the The feelings they had towards him extend to you in your head, which may not be accurate.

That's actually what I thought. Because he went out and stole all their newspapers when that article came out of the- The Saint It was put to dispatch about his disbarment or something? Yes. Yeah.

And he stole their newspapers.

He went down the block and stole everybody's newspaper, so they wouldn't see it. I felt like, well, they knew all that. And then I knew about the people who told us we couldn't go to the Elks Club. I knew about that.

I mean, this is all stems from dad's behavior. It's not about their perspective on you, their opinion about you. And in your head, the way that they felt about dad is the same that they felt about him.

Yeah, I felt so.

To go back to what Danny highlighted earlier as interesting, it still is. Sandy, you're still having this reaction that, Oh, they're going to say no to me if I want to look around, or the neighbors are... You still, on some level, feel like they don't like you. Is that what I'm hearing?

Yeah, I still think that maybe they don't. Why should I go over there and- Press the issue.

And stir something up? Right. Yeah. Something up. Right, stir something up. No, I understand. Well, maybe we'll find a way to get you some closure, too, when this is all said and done. So as we wind this thing down, we want to give people a sense of what's going to be episode 4, the next episode in the podcast. And that is going to be an interesting journey because it's-It's a lot about you.

It's you. It's you. Actually, Sandy. Episode 4 is we get into your life and your early dating life with Richard and how it is that you and Richard got together and how you ultimately decided to marry that man. Are you excited about that episode?

I guess.

That does not sound very excited.

That's going to get people riled up.

Should the listeners be excited about that episode?

The listeners should really be excited about this. Why?

You're not excited.

Man, Sandy, when you feel like you need to do some marketing for us, your energy changes completely. You just get super animated. Do you have some anxiety about that episode?

Yeah, because I don't really remember exactly what we what it entailed. Sure.

I'm sensing a general ambivalence from you for this whole process.

No, I am excited about it, and I want to do it.

I understand if you have ambivalence. I mean, this is a lot. This is a lot going back to a lot of stuff that you probably don't want to think about and haven't thought about. I get it if that's the case.

In the podcast, we are starting to some interviews that we did with you seven or eight years ago, way before we even thought of doing a podcast.

When did I do an interview?

We interviewed you in 2017.

When we were researching for the When we were just beginning to think about writing a TV pilot.

Exactly. Some of these interviews are in the podcast. It's just the three of us around Danny's computer microphone.

I'm burping my son.

Yes, exactly. As a baby. The reason I bring it up, though, is that who knew when we first sat down to talk to you about writing a fictionalized television show, loosely inspired by this, that we would be sitting here making episode after episode of a podcast diving into the real story of your life and your life with Richard.

Wow, I can't wait to hear that.

Same with us, man. Same.

Now, that's the reaction we're looking for. Yeah.

Here's a sneak peek of episode 4 of how to destroy everything.

Wait, so you think that what happened here is he invited you to this party, said, I want you to clean my house. You did not do that. You showed up for the party. Then to get back at you, he messed with a drink to make you sick?

Yes. The only reason I think that is because I wouldn't have thought that this other girl, she was in the bathroom with me, and she said, I think Richard did the same thing to me at another party.

Check us out at Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. If you have any stories to share about Richard Jacobs, you can reach us at I knowrichardjacobs@gmail. Com.

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