Happy Scribe
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If you haven't already, please consider joining our Patreon, we offer lots of benefits like an Ark game server, ad free episodes, our books and a print of Sabrina's dinosaur art. Find out more and join at Patreon Dotcom. I know. I know. All lowercase. Hello and welcome to I know, I know, I'm Garrett and I'm Sabrina. And today in our three hundred and fifth episode, we have a bunch of news, including a new small sauropod.

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But it's not as small as like can embryo's a small for a sauropod. So much good Sorba news lately there has been a lot. Yeah. We also have an interview with Alex and Kate Hastings and we have Dinosaur of the Day, Dubray Allosaurus. It's hard to say because it's French and I'm not good with French. But before we get into all of that, we want to thank some of our patrons. This week we have two new patrons to thank.

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Marlina and Minoli both joined as a combo unit and separately D.C. Cassandre joined. So thank you all very much for joining and to round out our ten shout outs of the week. This week, we're going to thank Stegall, Steve Wacken, Francis and his Allosaurus Meiyu, Stefaan Graham, Wouter and Stegall. Sophie. Yeah.

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Again, thank you so much. We cannot keep doing this podcast without you. And I'm loving all the different names we've got going on. If you want to shadow or hang out with other fellow dinosaur enthusiasts in our discord, then check out our page at Patreon Dotcom's.

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I no doubt jumping into the news of first we have our new dinosaur, as we always do when we have a new dinosaur, or almost always at least. This one was published in Cretaceous research by Sebastian Upstages and others. And in it they describe the first ever dinosaur from Ecuador. Wow. Yeah, it's pretty big news. It's named it Yamana Saurus Lo Hines's and Yamana Source is so named because it was found in Yamana Conten Polt, us and Lo Heintz.

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This is because it was found in Loha Province. So it's another place, name, source, place name ANSYS which isn't just for Chinese dinosaurs. Makes sense if it's the first one named in Ecuador. You want a named after the place you found it. Yeah, I'm kind of surprised it didn't pick a larger thing like Ecuador saurus or something like that, but I suppose they're hoping that there will be more Ecuadorian dinosaurs in the future, maybe one that's a little bit more substantial in find.

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This one doesn't have a ton of bones to go with it.

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It's a sauropod, though. You don't need that money. I guess it was found in Rio Playas formation in southwest Ecuador and that's really close to Peru. I think that formation extends across Peru because several dinosaurs have been found on the Peru side of the border, not too far from where this was found in Ecuador, because, again, dinosaurs don't care about geographical lines. It was just doing what it was doing and where it could where the food was.

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Yeah, exactly. The formation is from the Campania into Maastricht in. But Yamana source in particular is a late Maastricht yen. And they estimate it really precisely at about sixty six point nine million years old, which makes it less than a million years from the mass extinction event. And therefore one of the latest dinosaurs, probably one of the most derived sauropods. So it could have some interesting traits that we didn't see in earlier sauropods. It also means that it was around at the same time as Triceratops and T Rex, but they were in North America and North America and South America weren't connected yet.

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They wouldn't be for about another 60 million years. So they probably would have never seen each other. That isn't to say that there weren't other big things that you Minotaur's had to deal with at the time, though, Yamana source was found by a farmer who recognized the bones and he also collected and donated them. So he was the one man crew getting this dinosaur out. Impressive. Yeah. I wonder if maybe they were like surface like on the surface of the Earth because unfortunately he didn't find very much and some of them were pretty broken and deteriorated in total.

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He found half each of a humorous radius and maybe tibia, but that one so eroded they can't even be sure it's a tibia. Could be another bone also to partial tail vertebrae and two articulated vertebrae from between the hips, also known as sacral vertebrae, even if it was on the surface.

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So he's got a good eye that he could tell those were fossils.

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I always think that maybe the first thing people notice is a vertebrae because vertebrae look really weird and clearly not like rocks because they're like circular. But then they kind of have that cylindrical shape to them. And then if they're better preserved, they have all these points sticking out of them that make them look really weird. But yeah, if it was just that really eroded tibia, I don't even know if a paleontologist would notice it because it it just looks like a rock.

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Most of the fossils are now at the National Institute of Cultural Heritage, which looks like it's almost entirely anthropology, probably because this is the first ever dinosaur fossil found in Ecuador. I'm not sure how much paleontology they have in general there since we focus on dinosaurs, obviously, but. The fused sacral vertebrae are at the private technical university of Loha, so they might have some paleontological collections there as well. I'm not sure why exactly they separated them. They said that all the fossils were donated by the same guy.

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But for some reason, these two fused sacral vertebrae ended up at a different place. They call dibs. Yeah, maybe. Even though they didn't find that much of of sauce, they did find enough to identify it as a titanosaur specifically assault Kasserine and again Psaltis organs are sauropods that are famous for their osteo terms, and they're all pretty late in the evolution of sauropods and seltzer's Orian's range from very large to very small, at least small for sauropods.

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And Yamana saurus being from Ecuador is the northernmost multiscreen known by far as they put it. You never know how long the dinosaur will hold a title like that. Yeah, it's kind of specific because sauropod wise, right? There's plenty of stuff north of it. So there's a pretty specific group. Your monitors, like I said, was definitely on the small side, they call it the smallest known, short limbed South American sauropod in the paper, which I find interesting, that should make it under seven meters or twenty three feet long in order to get that moniker.

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And that's roughly about the size that they scaled it for their skeletal drawing. They didn't put a scale bar on it, but they have a human in it for scale. So you can kind of roughly see how big it is. And it looks like they put it at yes. The smallest Psaltis multiscreen from South America, but like just barely the skeletal reconstruction is pretty cool. It shows a woman standing kind of face to face with you OneSource and is about as tall as the Yamana sources back.

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So its head is a little bit higher just because they have the posture with a little bit of a curved neck, like a little bit Brachiosaurus ish, like going up a little bit, not like down on the ground, like Nigera saurus or something. And to me, given that a human a sort of the height of its shoulder, it reminds me of sort of the scale of a horse, but obviously with a longer tail and neck, it's like if you take this proportions of a horse and kind of add a big tail to it and add a longer neck on it, you'd get like sort of the size of this animal.

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It's an interesting visual.

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Yeah, I think it's because I've seen a few pictures of, like, women face to face with horses and that skeletal sort of had a similar vibe to it to me of like a person with like a friendly dinosaur that they like like basically how you would probably look if you saw a sauropod happy.

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Yes. I should point out, though, that the length of the dinosaur is really a lot of speculation because we only have a couple of tail vertebrae and we don't have any neck vertebrae. So with sauropods, a long tail or a long neck can almost double the length of the animal. So, yeah, it's hard to say how long this one was. Presumably it's under about two metres or six feet tall, at least at the hip, and it probably weighed less than two tons because it's small.

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It's about two very large horses for comparison, since I'm doing a horse analogy here.

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The authors say, quote, The incompleteness of your monisha is haplotype prevents against plotting it in a data matrix to get reliable phylogenetic results and quote, which is kind of refreshing because usually you just throw it into a phylogenetic matrix, even if it's just a couple of bones and then say, like, this is its closest relative. But really we can't know that because you don't have any bones to compare it to most of the other dinosaurs. So you end up with wastebasket Texans.

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It is. And it gives a false sense of how much we know about the dinosaur, too. I would say the relatively short limbs of Yamana stories, they say, make it clearly in Sawney and it has several details in common with new cancers. And that is another small sauropod, which is the salt Azarian. Interestingly, in the paper they give the length of Nayo cancerous and they say it's about seven or nine meters or twenty three to thirty feet long and weighed about three and a half tons.

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So presumably if Yamana source is smaller, that's where I get it has to be less than twenty three feet long because otherwise why would they say that in the same paper where they named this close relative that could be down to twenty three feet long. Now you can saurus is not really that close geographically relative to OneSource. Now you can saurus is all the way over in Argentina, Uruguay. And it was also about 10 million years earlier than source. So it wouldn't be surprising if we found some more closer relatives.

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Team OneSource, especially in Peru or Ecuador, Yamana Source and now you Kenesaw us both may have been Island Dwarf's or otherwise isolated to become dwarf titanosaurs. And that's because sea level was really high in the late Cretaceous. We talk about the western interior seaway in North America dividing the continent into larger media and Appalachia. But there were similar effects going on in South America with sea level being so high. Much of South America was flooded during the latest Cretaceous and that isolated lots of groups.

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So that could be how we had all these small sauropods popping up across the continent.

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Something about the term dwarf titanosaur sounds so odd because Titanosaur is supposed to be like huge lizard and then dwarf. Yeah, it is. It's like jumbo shrimp.

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Yeah. In other news, there's a new museum, Western Australia Museum Boulevard, if that's opening in November, and they have a portal to the past display featuring Western Australian sauropods. Nice. I think we heard about that a couple of years ago. When they're in the planning phases, it's always good to have more dinosaur museums. Yeah, and there's all kinds of great museums in Australia. I don't know how many of them are new, but we know about so many renovations and expansions.

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Yeah, yeah. First I was thinking this was one that closed and reopened, but I think you're right that it's brand new.

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So in the portals to the past display, they have replicas that are based on footprints found at the Dampier Peninsula that are about one hundred and thirty million years old, which is pretty cool to recreate it all based on footprints. Yeah, that is cool. And then not dinosaur related. They have a Megalodon shark as well. Next up is news of stand. The T-Rex being up for sale, which lots of people are talking about. Yes, it did make a lot of waves.

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Yeah. Apparently they're being legally forced to do so as part of a settlement agreement, but I couldn't find too many details. So a lot of our listeners, we probably all recognize Stan because there are Stan replicas in museums all over the world. And I think it's the most replicated and produced t rex anywhere. Mm hmm. And stands about 40 feet or 12 metres long. And he's one of the largest, most complete T. Rex skeletons with one hundred and eighty eight bones.

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The skeleton of Stan has been at Black Hills Institute in South Dakota. We've seen it the original and it's been heavily researched. The Stan was found back in 1987 in the Hell Creek formation by Stan Sacristan, an amateur paleontologist, and how Stango thinks we don't actually know if Stan was a male. So anyway, it was originally thought to be a triceratops.

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Then after about thirty thousand hours, Stan skeleton was restored. And apparently Stan has survived a lot of injuries, including a broken neck and punctures to the skull and rib. So on October six, Stan will be on display at Christie's in New York at Rockefeller Center before going to auction that evening and stands expected to sell for six to eight million dollars. And then Stan will be on display until October 21st. And I think they knocked out some walls and they made it so that you can see Stan from Rockefeller Center so you don't have to go in so you could do the social distancing thing.

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Cool.

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So really, the news here is if you want to see Stan and you're near New York City, you should go see it. Yes. For free.

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But it sounds like there might still be Stan replicas going out to museums all over the world because Black Hills Institute of Geological Research still owns the copyright stand. Oh, that's weird. So you could own the bones, but not be allowed to, like, sell pictures of it or sell copies of the bones.

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I'm not sure what the terms are specifically.

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Seems like that would really impair the value of it. I don't know if it will go for a six to eight million dollars if that's if that ends up being the case. And I also kind of wonder if a museum would even be interested in buying it if some private institution is still going to hold the copyright. That part might be speculation because what I read specifically was about stand's copyright. In 2010, there was a lawsuit, an eight point two million dollar lawsuit around it and in the Black Hills Institute clearly had the rights to the copyright.

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So what was the result? Well, what happened back then was that Black Hills Institute loaned out pieces of Stan and Sue Specimen's to help Fort Peck Paleontology put together PEX Rex like filling in gaps. Yeah. So then they made moulds and they reproduced parts that were protected by copyright and then they sold that to different museums. Uh, I see. And then at the time, apparently a cast of Stand Skull is worth about ten thousand dollars and a cast of Sudam was a few hundred dollars.

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Interesting. Ten thousand dollars didn't seem too bad for her T-Rex call. Oh, I was thinking the opposite. They're huge. It's true. My cost that much in transportation to. I was really surprised when I heard this because when we talked to Pete Larson, he was emphatic about the fact that he would never sell Stan because they had had Sue and then lost that in legal battles. So he really wanted to hang on to Stan. Kind of saw that as like a sort of replacement for Sue.

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It seemed like if it was part of a settlement agreement, though, might not have been his choice. Yeah, that's rough. Maybe it's the only thing they had that was valuable enough to pay off all that money. Well, that's all speculation on our part. All we know for sure is Stan is being auctioned and that you can see it if you're in New York and you go to Rockefeller Center between October 6th and 21st of this year. Yeah, we.

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We saw a T-Rex at a mall in Hong Kong in a similar sort of weird setup that was kind of cool. It's nice when dinosaurs pop up in places you don't normally expect. Mm hmm. Unless we get some game news, there's a new VR dinosaur game coming to Oculus called Jurassic World Aftermath. And it's a first person game. It's going to come out in December. And in the game, it's two years after what happened in Jurassic World, the movie.

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And you have to get some valuable research materials from an abandoned facility while also watching out for a pack of velociraptor, which is the description says, quote, To survive, you'll need to explore the research facility, solve puzzles and find ways to outsmart the ferocious velociraptor that are stalking your every move, all in fully immersive VR, unquote.

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It sounds terrifying. I really like dinosaurs and I like VR, but like horror movie style.

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VR is way too much for me even. There's a game called Arizona Sunshine where you start out and you're in fully lit Arizona sunshine, as the name implies, and there are zombies coming for you. And it's still too scary for me because it's like when you're in VR, it really ratchets up the real ness and the like fright of it. So a little bit of scare goes a lot farther. And I don't think I can handle Jurassic Park type experience in VR.

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It just seems way too much.

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Maybe we wait for it to come out here, what other people say about it and then decide. I mean, I think I'll play it anyway because it's in VR and it's got dinosaurs, but I don't know if I'm going to like it.

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Well, you're probably at least like the graphics maybe.

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Really quickly, we again want to thank all of our fantastic patrons this week, if you haven't already joined, we have five exciting levels. The latest is the Spinosaurus level, and we created it as a new top tier for people who wanted to help us out more with the costs of creating the show. A few people asked us about this and what the best way to do that was, and we wanted to offer them something really nice rather than just saying, well, Patriota allows you to give more.

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We wanted to give something back, so we made this new tier. So what we're doing is we're every year going to give away an exclusive thing that you can only get by being in the Spinosaurus here. And this year it's a steal print of Sabrina's Paris or all of this parade, which I think is a fantastic piece of art. And of course, it includes everything from our other tiers as well, like the ability to chat with us on our Dischord server, where you can request a dinosaur of the day or talk about dinosaur art and toys and shows and news with us.

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There's a lot of different channels where different does or topics. You can also join our ask private steam server, which is a lot of fun. We can tame dinosaurs and play with those. You can also vote in polls that we post like for our dinosaur watch parties. You'll also get a custom RSS feed with bonus content, like extended interviews as well as our ad free show. And you'll get a shout out if you want that, as well as all of our dinosaur e-books.

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Plus, of course, that steel print of Sabrina's art and something to be determined next year when we get there. So many rewards.

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And now on to our interview with Katie and Alex Hastings, and again, we've got an extended version for our patron, so check your RSS feed for that if you're a patron. This week, we're joined by Katie and Alex Hastings. Alex is the Fitzpatrick chair of paleontology at the Science Museum of Minnesota and Katie is a husbandry manager. But more importantly, they recently started a podcast called Squabbling Squibs, where they've been discussing Jurassic Park, the book, to be specific, and a lot of other cool topics.

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Yes. Yes. So thank you both for joining us. Thank you for having us. I guess up first, I think last time we talked to you, Alex, you weren't at the Science Museum of Minnesota yet, but what have you been up to at the museum? Yeah, sure.

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Yeah, it's been a while. So I was at the Virginia Museum of Natural History. Now I'm at the Science Museum in Minnesota, where I've been for about two years now. And obviously our museum was affected by covid shutdown, much like everything else in the world. But one of the things that we've been spending a lot of time over the summer is sort of kind of rethinking all of our space in order to safely or as safe as we can manage, reopen to the public.

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And as of when we're recording, it's actually tomorrow. So by the time this goes up, we will be open to the public, which is going to be Friday, Saturday and Sunday is basically from now on until there's the vaccine and we can open up more. So it's we've spent a lot of time thinking about it. We had a bunch of meetings kind of going there, figuring out all your little like congestion points and stuff like that and trying to reposition things that way.

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It's still a fun experience, you know, without kind of putting people together in ways that we don't want that happening right now.

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Nice. How involved with this process have you had to be?

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I'd say more so than I would have thought from the get go, because a lot of times when, you know, you've you've got your exhibit people, then you get your science people and not everywhere do those really intersect all that much. But because dinosaurs are one of the biggest things that draw people to the science museum, they wanted to really make sure that we're still kind of grouping things together because we knew we had to move things around, exhibits we wanted to at least keep kind of, you know, what little bits of narrative that we could together and not separate things that, you know, put two things together, don't have anything to do together.

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So they brought me in pretty early on for that. I was there for the floor meeting. We actually walked through the space to figure it all out. And I was involved in a completely different part of it. We put up a face mask on our Rex skeleton that's up in the lobby. So it actually was involved in that a bit, too, because they're like, well, how would you do this? Like, well, all right.

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So if you've got to cover the nasal cavity as well as the mouth and it's going to have to be pretty big there. So we actually figured out how to get this thing up and over that and then it kind of ties around back behind the head.

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So we kind of logistic that out there. That's fun.

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And so one of the things that we're really trying to promote is trust science. So on the front of the T-Rex face mask says trust science. We actually started making our own face masks. Also say trust science.

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Those are available on actually online as well as in store, because that's the message that needs to be put out in the world. So we want to use data to make informed decisions. And that's what science is all about. And we need to be able to trust the data to then make those decisions. And so that's our message as soon as you walk in. So I was happy to be able to be involved. And actually I helped put the mask on, which is kind of fun, too.

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Yeah. Was is the mask like just a huge cloth piece? Basically, yes. They actually had to go through quite a bit of prototyping actually to get the right material and something. And in the end they had to use this like really thick stuff because they had a screen print, the the trust science onto it. So then they like they had trouble, like just jamming needles into it that could actually get through this thick fabric in order to like, sell it on properly.

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So these are the kinds of things you have in museums that you're dealing with.

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Yeah. You're having trouble selling this T rex face mask.

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That's fine. That's fine. That's really interesting with the the science and the placement even on the T-Rex. I never thought about that because I've seen like on sculptures and stuff. We've seen masks are around different dinosaurs. And I never thought about like. Oh yeah. In terms of you got to make sure you're covering the right parts, otherwise it's ineffective.

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Right. Right. And it's I you know, we weren't the first museum to do it by any means. But I'd seen a bunch of other ones where people had put like a face mask on a skeleton. They put like a human face mask on, like a Sarah autopsy. And there's like all this space everywhere. I'm like, that's not doing anything at all anyway. So they asked me. I was like, all right, this is what you're going to get.

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Then you've got to bring it over here. You got to bring it around there. So it's about as as close to what? An actual T-Rex face mask would have to be I way misinterpreted what you meant when you said human face mask.

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Oh, my God. It is a carnivore after all.

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So nothing that a normal one that a human would wear. Yeah, that's unsettling. OK, not what I meant. No.

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So in the museum, I know we've been to the Science Museum of Minnesota a couple of times. I've got a lot family up there. Basically, you've got that T-Rex up in the front area. And then I think the rest of the dinosaurs are down like we in one kind of corner, right?

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Yes. So you it's a weird scenario where you're entering on floor five and then you basically go down to floors four and three to where the rest of the exhibits are because it's all basically built onto a cliff. So you're going from up high and then going down to more river level and the dinosaurs are on the third floor. So you kind of descend a couple of floors, but it's all very open and the dinosaurs are more or less about half of the third floor, a little bit more than half.

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And actually now we're getting closer to two thirds of the because we've expanded out. Yeah. So one of the other fun things about this was not only where we kind of spreading things out a bit, we have a live atrium stage that's right in front of the dinosaurs who we normally have these like little science shows is right next to the dinosaurs. We even got this like live puppet. So we had maybe some of your audience. People have seen kind of those cool, fancy high tech puppets where it's basically it's a full body juvenile t rex.

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Anyway, they do shows there. Of course, you can't really do that because you have like a crowd of people and that's not really what we're doing. So instead, we're using that space to increase our dinosaur exhibit space. And one of the things I'm really happy about is we actually had a germiest saurus skeleton mounted onto a Centrosaurus skull. So this is, of course, one of the quote, Raptors with it's a kind of like a triceratops without the big brow horns that was basically tucked away on floor to wear really only people who would go there for, like classes and like schoolroom programming and stuff would actually see it.

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So most people have never seen this before and we actually put it front and center. So as soon as you come anywhere near the dinosaur hall, you're going to see this really awesome pieces now in a really great spotlight. So I guarantee a lot of people will be seeing it for the first time, even if they've been to the museum a bunch of times. That's cool.

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Yeah, but it's two different dinosaurs. It's together. And yes. So the germiest horses on top of the Centrosaurus skull and then all of that is in a big giant blast. Oh, OK.

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Looks like a much like a scaled down version of what they did.

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The Smithsonian with the T. Rex chewing the triceratops. Right. Smaller. Yeah. And it's just the head of the Centrosaurus is not the entire thing, but it's still it's a really, really cool piece. It's very well mounted. And I'm excited that people will be getting to experience that for the first time. And that is cool.

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Since you mentioned a Sarah autopsying, I know the triceratops at the Science Museum of Minnesota has a pretty crazy story. Could you share that with us? Yeah.

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So that was kind of fun. This is actually if people haven't been in like a while last summer in twenty nineteen, we actually redid all of the graphics and I actually had a bit of an extra challenge to deal with the Triceratops. So the triceratops we had known was more or less a kind of composite of two. But when I started really digging into what had been written about that mountain skeleton, it actually I realized it's it's eight different triceratops that went into this one mounted skeleton.

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So the the short end is in nineteen sixty. Bruce Erickson, who was the person in charge of the Paleontology Department for the Science Museum of Minnesota before me, he was actually the first and only other paleontologist at the science museum. So he was there for a very, very, very long time, um, over 50 years. And wow. But this was kind of early into his career there. He had gone out with a crew that included his wife, Lois, and they were basically charged with finding big dinosaurs for this museum in St.

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Paul. And they spent some time out in the hell creek in Montana. And Lois had kind of walked off a bit to just kind of look around and see what she could find. She found the end of a rib, comes back later. It's like, hey, Bruce, there's, you know, a dinosaur bone over here. You should go check it out. And it turned out to be most of a skeleton of triceratops. So pretty good find for the day.

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So that was excavated out through the process of kind of then looking around there, they found another partial skeleton of a triceratops about the same size and might even actually have. Then the same individual, but they're far enough apart that they felt that they should treat them as separate. So over the next couple of years, they excavated that one out as well because there were so similar in size there. Like, we can actually mount these together. And they conveniently there wasn't overlap, which is another sign that it might have just been one individual.

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So those got two different catalog numbers. And basically the line had been ever since this thing got mounted in the 60s, that this was these two specimens put together, possibly even just one individual. There's a lot of branding around it that it was the largest triceratops. I don't know how you would necessarily know that.

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So anyway, when we did the rebranding, I was like, let's let's just leave that out. But then I was like, all right, let's actually figure out what bone goes to what. So I spent a good long time crawling all over that skeleton, trying to find catalog numbers and also figure out what was kassin what was not, because everything was, of course, painted to look the same in the bones, but that they painted bones. So no, no, no, they painted the cast to look like bones.

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That way it becomes a lot harder to actually figure out what's what. Weirder things, though, from you.

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So, yeah, no, there's there's some weird stories about people doing.

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I could talk about the cave bear skull.

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It's just I don't know what they're thinking with that. But anyway, this is dinosaurs, so it's crawling all over that with flashlight. All that basically found hadn't kind of my map of the triceratops skeleton figure out definitely what loans went to each of those. And then he had put out a couple of little publications on the material from there where it said explicitly, like, you know, one of the toe bones was from another triceratops. One of the leg bones was two.

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So basically I worked out a diagram for what Bone went to which. And unfortunately, though, there were a bunch of bones that I couldn't say definitively which of the two of the first skeletons that were pulled out, it came to. So unfortunately, there is a category there for either this number or this number. But in any case, it was kind of a fun adventure to go on. I tried asking Bruce because he was still coming around every now and then.

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And, you know, understandably, from the early 60s, you didn't remember exactly which which one. Right. So I did the best we could with it.

[00:31:55]

But I think it's a pretty cool graphic and it tells a little bit of the kind of composite nature of a lot of these skeletons that are mounted in museums. Yeah.

[00:32:04]

Also the just real quick power of husband wife teams.

[00:32:08]

Yeah, absolutely. So that was another thing. We actually dug into the archives when we were doing the updated graphics because we knew Lois had actually found it. And she was like a little bit in there that said that she had found it in the old signage. We actually found a really nice black and white photo of her and Bruce working at the site together. So now we've got this nice big picture that's got her face very clearly visible. And we say Lois is the one that kind of cue them into this so she gets a lot more credit in the updated signage.

[00:32:38]

Nice.

[00:32:39]

So what are the other? So there were like up to eight individuals. How does that fit?

[00:32:43]

So six of them are just one bone each. So two of them are these kind of two partial skeletons that might actually belong to one. So it's mostly just kind of trying to fill in the gaps and have as few cast pieces as possible.

[00:32:57]

There is one extra fun thing that was preserved on the side of the left side of its face is a big old scarring. So we've got a little light that lights up onto the skull that you just press a button and it shows you where that is. That really only matches up with fighting other triceratops. So it's kind of locking horns and then just ramming so hard that you're actually scraping into the bone of the skull itself.

[00:33:23]

There is scarring. Yeah.

[00:33:26]

Which is actually surprisingly common when you start looking at Triceratops, that there's these these things were clearly fighting each other with a lot of force behind it.

[00:33:36]

That's an insane amount of force, like I've seen nature videos of animals fighting, but I don't think I've ever seen them get deep enough for you to imagine that it would be marking on the bone.

[00:33:45]

Yeah, that's a really rough life if you want to be the top triceratops.

[00:33:50]

Yeah, apparently. Alex, are you also doing field work right now?

[00:33:56]

Yeah, it's all kind of local Daytripper sort of stuff. So I've been doing a lot of work up in the Iron Range of Minnesota and that is a Cretaceous site. So basically they dug through the overlying rock to get to the iron layers are actually below the Cretaceous Rock and basically just chucked mountains and mountains, mountains of this Cretaceous rock all over the place.

[00:34:20]

You can crawl all over it and start finding shark teeth and other little bits of stuff. Very happy to say that there are crocodile remains from there, too, and we'll save it for a future story. But there is a little bit of online some. Not totally spoiling it, but there is some dinosaur material, but we're also later. So you're just going through like the refuse pile, basically?

[00:34:42]

Basically, yes. Which makes it sound not rigorous at all. But one of the nice things is, you know, they would take a big chunk of rock and dump it and then a big chunk of rock and dump it.

[00:34:53]

So even though things that aren't in situ aren't in place anymore, there's still kind of every pile is more or less kind of from one chunk of the rock unit.

[00:35:04]

So there's actually there is still a little bit of stratigraphic kind of information that you can pull from that.

[00:35:12]

Do you know what part of the Cretaceous is from? Yeah, so it's sediment in. So it's somewhere around the 90 to 100 million years old.

[00:35:20]

I didn't realize that there was. You guys had that. Yeah.

[00:35:23]

So. Well, it's a coastal deposit, right. So it's all kind of we're getting a lot of snails and clams and oysters and stuff like that. But kind of every now and then you can get something terrestrial, more or less done, floated out to sea as happens, like with an kyla's or things.

[00:35:39]

Mm hmm. So, Katie, can you tell us what is a husbandry manager?

[00:35:44]

Well, I guess I can say that I started working with animals back in 2006. I started working at a raptor center wildlife center, had all kinds of animals there. I got my start taking care of them and worked there for about eight years. And then I moved with Alex to Germany. But then we came back and I started taking care of animals at the museum that we both worked at. Virginia. Yeah, in Virginia. And then we moved here and I went honestly a little crazy as a stay at home mom, and I couldn't do it.

[00:36:15]

So I looked around for jobs and I found, um, I found a job for husbandry manager at, like an aquarium. But we also have we also have a lot of terrestrial animals. So I'm the husband to remain a manager for the terrestrial things, basically for breathes air there.

[00:36:33]

Yeah, that's true. And I make sure that they get the food they need and that my employees are training them. Well, we have a kinkajou right now. He's a juvenile.

[00:36:44]

It's a kinkajou. A kinkajou is actually he's a member of the same family as Raccoon's and Quada Mon's Coartem Mondelez.

[00:36:53]

He's basically a South American raccoon.

[00:36:57]

They they're looking for noses and they have this thing on the Internet last year where they showed him walking backwards and they said they looked like brontosaurus. Oh, yes, we've seen that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:07]

So those are those are coyotes putting it in dinosaur terms.

[00:37:14]

I know how to make sure they're really cool.

[00:37:18]

They can actually turn their wrist like 180 degrees because they're they're nocturnal arboreal creatures and they're not typically sociable. Occasionally they can live in groups of like two, maybe three. But he's a male, so he's going to be a little bit more territorial. And they also have a prehensile tail.

[00:37:38]

Pretty cool. Nice going back a little bit because you've mentioned you started off working with Raptors. Yeah. What was that like?

[00:37:45]

Pretty freakin cool. I'm going to be honest.

[00:37:48]

That's how I bagged Alex, basically, like the night we met, she brought me into her work and like, just pulls a hawk out on her hand. I'm like, oh my God, it was. That's amazing. Well, it started with the hot and then you built up to the escalator.

[00:38:04]

Oh, wow. This is amazing. We ended with him getting peed on by a teammate. Yes. SEAL the deal. It's an epic night. Yes.

[00:38:14]

Way more than you would ever think a little to do. Yeah. I love I love Raptors. They're one of my favorite things on Earth. And we actually had a golden eagle along.

[00:38:25]

We actually at Bald Eagles as well. But the Golden Eagle, we would take the bird and put them on display during the day and then take them off and put them into a protected room at night, which is called a moo. So they can't be hurt by the environment or by any other creatures because all of the raptors we had or either imprinted on a human accidentally or injured and they couldn't be released back into the wild.

[00:38:47]

A couple of them were falconry, birds or, you know, birds that you can purchase for those reasons like our eagle owls or stuff like that, like education birds. The Golden Eagle had a frozen joint in here. What would we would think of as a shoulder? So, like, it's not his elbow, which is what people would normally be like, oh, a shoulder, but down deep.

[00:39:08]

And he was only eight pounds, but he could crush your head with his hands. Well, outside with his talents, he had such strong strength and so tense.

[00:39:18]

There's no way for you to stop the pressure like him being able to, like, hurt you. So whenever he tries to jump at you and attack you, you just have to hold him straight up above your head because you can't reach you that way. Just flapping.

[00:39:31]

We'd be walking down the boardwalk with them and then all of a sudden you just see the person. Holding and way up in the air and you're like, oh, Phoenix. Here we go again. He did it the same spot. Every day there is like one spot of boardwalk you really hated. Yeah.

[00:39:45]

He was like, here comes here, comes here comes a bit weird.

[00:39:50]

So with that screwy shoulder, does that mean he couldn't fly?

[00:39:54]

Yeah. So he could probably do like a chicken, maybe like a turkey not. Yeah, yeah.

[00:40:00]

It's like soaring through the air. It's not going to feel great. And he could probably go like 10, 20 feet if he really, really, really tried. That was the major actually almost all of our eagles had frozen joints, so it was like broken and injured and it didn't heal correctly or nobody caught it in time. And then they it started to heal in an awkward angle. And then they can't they can't, like, rotate it so they can lift it up and down, but they can't do it back and forth.

[00:40:26]

So it's like if you can open your elbow, but you can't you can't turn your arm back and forth. Right. If you can't if you can't turn your shoulder, but you can do your elbow, that didn't really help you if you're trying to fly. So that sounds awful.

[00:40:38]

Is that like a common problem? Is that have something to do with, like birds biology that that happens?

[00:40:43]

So they have they have very fragile bones. I mean, they're so easy to break. They're, of course, hollow and so can be injured pretty easily with anything. They hit a tree, they run into the ground. We had a bald eagle who fell out of the nest and his beak was twisted. So like he was young and he fell out of a tree. And so his jaw busted enough that his his beak was crooked. And then if he could fly perfectly fine and he can capture food and eat it, but eventually his beak, because of the way that it's growing, would continue to grow and make it so his mouth would stay shut forever so he wouldn't be able to open his mouth eventually, you know.

[00:41:25]

Yeah. So we have to dremel his beak or they have to extend worked any more, but they would they have to dremel as beak every month or so to ensure that he can still eat. And he actually slobbers everywhere you take the food and shake it and then his our director would spit all over him. So that's really cute.

[00:41:43]

His name is Freedom. You can just type in freedom Gesu and you'll see him super cute.

[00:41:49]

That is adorable.

[00:41:52]

So when you're working with Rafter's, do you have to wear a lot of special like protective equipment?

[00:41:57]

So the protective equipment would be just a gauntlet. So a leather glove and depending on the species that you're working with, you can have something like a gardening glove for a kestrel. There's a regular gauntlett for that would basically go to just about your elbow crease for the majority of the rest of the raptors, including the huge owls. Some people wear enormous ones for the eagle owls, but ours were trained enough that it was we didn't need it. You did need it for the great horned.

[00:42:25]

So they they are so mean they look for the end of your glove and they're like any flash but eagle gauntlets actually go past your elbow. And halfway up like three quarters of your arm is covered in leather. And I still have scars that.

[00:42:43]

So you said they look for the end of the glove and then do they to get their talons into you.

[00:42:49]

So great horned owls. I don't know. I've never none of the other owls or hawks really tried it. They were just kind of tolerant of it. But great horned owls, owls in general have this. It's a feeding response. So if they hear a noise like a mouse noise, they assume they can't help. They just squeeze as hard as they can because they think it's food actually wouldn't be as hard as they can because they can break your arm if they do that.

[00:43:13]

But they squeeze very hard and they have a hard time letting go. And then they blame it on the surface that they're clinging to start biting that surface. And they we had two great horn and one of them would like look under like he would go under the glove and start nibbling there. And so you have to, like, try and get him to stop. And then if you could get one of his foot, one of his talents free, he would try and get under the glove.

[00:43:37]

Yeah, I got I have a scar from him. His name was Felix and he was enjoyable.

[00:43:46]

So I guess we should probably talk about Jurassic Park a little bit.

[00:43:49]

Yeah, that's the thing.

[00:43:52]

Before we get into your podcast, I just wanted to ask we saw online you posted a picture of Katie, your Jurassic Park cheap.

[00:44:00]

Yeah. How how did that happen?

[00:44:03]

So a couple of years ago, probably five years ago, my dad heard me say I've always had pretty much always had Jeep Wrangler stick shift, which is important for the story.

[00:44:15]

And he heard me say, if I ever if I could ever just have a Jurassic Park Jeep, I could die happy. And when we moved to Germany, we left my Jeep at their house and we moved home.

[00:44:30]

And he was like, you know, I'm still just I'm just still just tweaking it, working on it a little bit and. A couple of months later, he finally brings up to our new house in Virginia, and it's still my yellow jeep, which I love is my favorite color. And then he decked it out and painted it and put the Jurassic Park insignia all over it. And the final touch was I found on Etsy, the gearshift, which has the HAMP Hammond's cane topper as my gear.

[00:44:56]

That's my favorite part of the whole entire jeep. Is the gearshift. Nice. That's great.

[00:45:01]

But we're talking in past tense because. Because it's really difficult to turn your child 90 degrees to put him into the back seat, to put him into his car seat. Unfortunately, in the end, practicality had a wing out.

[00:45:16]

It does not do well on icy roads. And my AC and heat did not work.

[00:45:21]

She was carrying our adorable little tiny baby as icy roads in a sketchy sort of scenario. So sadly, we had to trade it in for a more practical car. So somewhere, hopefully we haven't run into it yet. But hypothetically, there's someone driving around in a drastic park jeep around here in Minnesota.

[00:45:42]

The guy who helped me trade in the Jeep is the one who bought it. He was very interesting to me. He'd like to say, you know, I like I think I'm going to. But now he texted me, Oh, you already sold it.

[00:45:54]

So don't worry. But is there anything I should worry about with this jeep? And I was like, no, I told you everything. It doesn't have a great any part. So great.

[00:46:03]

But it looks so cool. It's got a great stick shift. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:07]

So we we had it out front. We had a couple of dyno fests in Virginia. We had a parked out front. People really liked kind of climbing all over it. We learned you have to lock all the doors and windows and everything because people will try and climbing. We did it once in Virginia to our Sara in Minnesota as well. Yeah, nice.

[00:46:26]

So Tell does a bit about your podcast, Squabbling Squibs, had you started and decide what you wanted to cover covid.

[00:46:33]

Yeah. Yeah. Like like I'm guessing a lot of people that, you know, stuck inside a lot. We had kind of been talking about doing it for a long time and then we're like, well, why don't we just do it, you know, so stay sane, I think.

[00:46:47]

Yeah, yeah. So it's been fun kind of learning all the stuff as far as I know you guys did. And we we wanted to kind of play to, you know, the things that we kind of like. So it's it's really a blend of science, but also a strong pop fiction kind of theme throughout. So we always kind of go back and forth between the two. And I really like delving into places where those really, really intertwine in a big way.

[00:47:17]

So it's been fun. And also we can just kind of go into whatever we feel like talking about.

[00:47:22]

Basically, we started sort of a kind of a book club kind of thing called novel squabbles. And what I really wanted to do was sort of a full run through of Michael Crichton's Jurassic Park is, of course, something that's very near and dear to both of us. We hadn't read it in a while, so it was a good time to kind of go through it. And the the book is broken up into what he calls iterations, but really just parts.

[00:47:46]

There were seven of them. So we're like, all right, we'll just do a seven part series and which we just finished. So now all seven are available and going through each of those every time there's like a little factoid or there's kind of a new dinosaur. I get a little background on each of those and a little bit of kind of where the science is on certain things and also just where things were just just made up just for the story.

[00:48:10]

So it's been really fun kind of going into all the different pieces there. There definitely things that I'd completely forgotten about. I even like ended up going into like frog reproduction, because that's the whole key part of the whole thing. So, yeah, I learned about the story that went into that and that's kind of fun to explore all that.

[00:48:28]

So, yeah. Well, do you have plans for you mentioned you might go into Lost World, but are there other dinosaur books you'd be looking into the future?

[00:48:38]

We we will definitely be getting into other dinosaurs stuff. We're trying to sort of balance this between the two of us. So I think we're going to play to one of Katie's preferences next. But we will definitely, definitely be coming back to dinosaur content.

[00:48:52]

And with the regular episodes, we've done a few on on paleontology specifically. We've gotten into sort of like the name of Brontosaurus and stuff like that. We did a Raptor, we did sloths delved into the fossil record as well. We recently did a Tolkien and science as well. So there is one dinosaur named after a Tolkien character as well. So we kind of find our way into paleontology a bunch of times, which is fun. Nice.

[00:49:21]

We say you also did an episode on the Black Death. Yeah, that was my thesis topic. And I created a road network for all of medieval Europe and. We were trying to see how close to these road networks, to places that were affected, where it turns out they were all very close to a major road network. Milan was one of the only places to escape and they had walls.

[00:49:46]

So that would mean that it might not have been rats or rodents because rodents can definitely make it through the sewer system into a city. So probably something human people. It was it's always people.

[00:50:01]

Rats aren't going hundreds of miles. Right. So cool.

[00:50:05]

Is there anything else that you'd like to share? Check us out. We'll be doing we'll be doing all kinds of different stuff coming up to especially if you also like, you know, comic book stuff or Superman.

[00:50:20]

We have a Superman episode we just did A Wonder Woman in Mythology episode versus episode O. The Who would win in a Fight episode was been one of the more popular and contentious shows me and a couple of my other comic book nerd friends did these like just completely off the wall. My favorite one that I came up with was Indiana Jones versus the Xenomorph from Alien kind of thing.

[00:50:43]

I did have Yeah.

[00:50:44]

Rexy from Jurassic Park versus the giant spider from Lord of the Rings. And we just kind of talk about who would win in a fight. That's a fun one. It was fun night. So check that out.

[00:50:53]

I said Rexy like the spider man when she said, I don't know, OK? Yeah, it's still contentious. Exoskeletons don't work so well at that scale. That could be a downfall of the spider.

[00:51:06]

This is what I'm. Yeah.

[00:51:12]

All right. Well, thank you both so much for coming on and talking. Thank you guys so much for having us.

[00:51:19]

Thanks again to Alex and Katie, that was a fun chat, we always like talking about dinosaurs, both non avian and their crazy bird raptor are attacking relatives and of course, is great hearing about squabbling squibs.

[00:51:39]

And now on to our Dinosaur of the Day, Dubray Lazarus, which was a request from Francis and his Allosaurus via Patriota discord. So thank you. I also want to mention that the type specimen for Dubray Allosaurus is a juvenile or at least a subadult. And so quick shout out to nine one for an hour discord, because we discussed a little bit about talking more about kid dinosaurs. Dubray Allosaurus was a megalo sort theropod that lived in the Jurassic and what is now Normandy, France.

[00:52:11]

In the confirmation, Dubray Allosaurus had distinct traits that included a long, low skull that was three times longer than its height. And again, the whole type is a subadult. The fossils found include most of the skull, parts of the lower jaw, vertebrae, ribs, Australia, Cottle's, Chevron, part of the scapula, a claw from the hand, a partial thigh bone, part of a shinbone, partial fibula, metatarsal and more. And it's one of the most complete megalith.

[00:52:38]

Sautéed skulls known Gregory Paul estimated Dubray Allosaurus to be about 16 feet or five metres long and weigh five hundred fifty pounds or two hundred fifty kilograms. But this is based on the subadult. So as an adult, it was probably bigger and I wouldn't be too big for an adult.

[00:52:55]

Michael saw it.

[00:52:57]

It didn't have a crest or horns, but it's possible that it grew them as it aged. Again, only a Sabadell has been found. It probably had short, powerful arms with three fingers on its hands, too similar to its relatives. The type species is Debray Allosaurus Vellis do nancies. Andre Dubray, mayor of Cantrill in Normandy at the time, discovered dinosaur fossils in an abandoned quarry where the land was being restored and he found a partial skull and some ribs and let the National Museum of Natural History in France know.

[00:53:31]

And this led to excavations which didn't start until 1998 after the quarry was redeveloped. So the fossil material had been spread by a bulldozer and they had to dig in Sèvres. The rock move. Yes. So about 2000 fragments of bone were found and they were between point four to four inches or one and 10 centimeters. Wow. That's a lot of work. Yes. And so by 2002, the fossils were still being prepared. Dubray the was Ranaan Åhléns thesis.

[00:54:03]

And at the time, in 2002, he named it Pocalypse. Leron with a question mark. But Pocalypse Lauren vollies do nancies a new species and their questionmark is there because the genus naming was tentative. Again, they're still going through all these bone fragments. And for reference, Kokila plural was a mega asteroid that lived around the same time and place. But the type species was named in 1836. In 2005, Ranaan Alane found it to be a distinct genera.

[00:54:34]

There were a lot of distinct traits, including the long, low skull. And so he renamed the dinosaur to Dubray Allosaurus in honor of the Dubreuil family. So the genus name means the Braille's lizard. Sorry if I missed it. Why after the royal family? Because Andre Dubreuil, the mayor of Cornwall, was the one who discovered the fossils. Oh, AmEx's the species name vollies do nancies refers to where the battle of Vollies dunes happened, which was nearby, where William the Conqueror and King Henry, the first from France, fought and won against rebel Norman Barons in ten forty seven.

[00:55:10]

So during the time Dubreuil Sors lived, Europe was a bunch of violence and Real Saurus was found in marine sediment and lived on the coast. The fossils were found in situ mangrove roots, which means the water wasn't too deep, so it may have hunted and eat fish. It's not known for sure, but this is partly based on the fact that the hollow type of Pacula Puran Buckland's II was found with fish fossils. So Dubray lessors was found on an island, but it doesn't appear to be a dwarf dinosaur.

[00:55:40]

Other animals that lived in the same time place include Ammonites Erasmo Branches, which is a group that includes sharks, rays and skates and other fish. There was also driftwood found in the area and you can see Dubray Allosaurus in the the Palios First Odyssey Museum in Normandy, France. And our fun fact today comes from another sort of shower thought, which is, is it possible that any bone beds are the result of dinosaurs burying their dead?

[00:56:09]

Mm. Because there are lots of bone beds when it comes to hominids, and some of them are due to how humans and our ancestors buried our dead.

[00:56:20]

That's why I looked up what other animals remembered their dead. Yeah.

[00:56:25]

Or like mourn them. There's there's actually a lot of research that goes into this. I'm going to focus on vertebrates because there's lots of other animals that do this like ants and bees. But they seem to have different reasons and methods and stuff. It's not really relevant for dinosaurs, so. Focusing on vertebrates, because there's still a lot to cover there within hominids, which are obviously the groups who are most familiar with, if you go back just a few thousand or maybe tens of thousands of years, you can find tons of trademarks of a burial.

[00:56:53]

Think about Egypt with caskets and wrappings around the bodies and all sorts of really clear things that wouldn't be on a regular body walking around were it to collapse and happen to fossils. If you get into the hundreds of thousands to millions years range, it gets way trickier.

[00:57:12]

One of the coolest ones, as called Homo naledi, which is name based on a find that's between two hundred thousand and early three hundred thousands of years ago. And it's really a controversial claim. But the researchers who found this and described it believed that the bone bed with the holiday pulmonology and every other home on merletti, because I think they're all from this one spot, were buried in this incredibly difficult to reach cave within a cave. And they didn't just happen to die.

[00:57:44]

They're part of the key to that is that it's a mono specific group. So commonality is the only vertebrate species found in that spot. And usually if you're talking about things dying and being buried and fossilized from natural causes, it's not just going to be one individual. So we talk about it all the time. When we talk about bone beds, we'll say there were teeth from other animals and there were there was a little mammal there. And there happened to be like a pterosaur leg or something.

[00:58:12]

There's always other stuff mixed in if it's not buried intentionally. But like if you went to a graveyard today, you wouldn't find a bunch of other animals buried there. You know, you just find hominids depending who you ask. This might be more or less controversial, but some Neanderthals also may have buried their dead. So it's unclear, some people think that it just happens to look that way. Other people strongly argue that they are, in fact, intentionally buried, but it's in the same kind of time range earlier than that is really hard to say.

[00:58:48]

But going over to non hominids, there are quite a few other animals that have been observed burying their dead. I think by far the best example is elephants. If you look up animals burying dead, almost certainly the first thing that will pop up are elephants. And that's because elephants have all sorts of interesting behavior when it comes to other dead elephants. So for one thing, elephants can't dig effectively, so they cannot bury their dead. Maybe they could if they really tried hard at it and figured out a way, maybe in mud or something, I don't know.

[00:59:19]

It seems like it would be quite a task for them. But what they do instead is they cover their dead with leaves and branches and sometimes they kind of kick dirt on top of them. Another thing that they do is they often stay around the body for days in mourning. So say like a calf dies, the mother will stay next to that calf for days and days, sometimes leaving to get water. But often other elephants will join in as well.

[00:59:43]

And it's really we don't know why they're doing it, because we don't speak elephant. We assume that they're mourning. Sometimes it looks like they're weeping. They make noises that sound like crying. Sometimes they'll get really silent when they first discover an elephant that's dead. So to us, it very clearly looks like mourning it. It's hard to come up with another explanation of why they're behaving that way. It's complex behavior either way. Yes, definitely. And they do other interesting stuff like sort of gently touch the body and sniff at it a little bit with their trunks.

[01:00:14]

It looks really heartwarming. They also even act this way when they find an unrelated elephant. It doesn't have to be an elephant that they knew. They'll often like it really quiet and try to bury it. Sometimes they'll move them around a little bit, too, and things like that. Weirder, though, is that elephants also sometimes do this with humans. There was a case where an elephant charged a mother and her son in Kenya and killed both of them and then the elephant buried them with leaves and twigs before leaving.

[01:00:44]

WERD is very strange, but it's not the first time that humans have been buried by an elephant. Elephants also bury living humans pretty frequently, actually. Oh, if you're sleeping kind of alone without a tent in Africa and there are elephants around, there's a decent chance that you might get buried by the elephant.

[01:01:05]

Can you get what you can get out pretty easily? Yeah, because they just put like branches and stuff on top of you. But I think it might be because we sleep significantly longer than elephants and we might look dead to them because elephants don't like, lay completely prone the way that we do when we sleep. And people that have been sleeping in the brush sometimes are awakened by being buried in breachers or like touched by an elephant. There is one report where an elephant was like prodding at a woman, like sniffing her with its trunk.

[01:01:35]

And she woke up and she already had some branches on her and she was terrified. Because elephants are incredibly deadly, they kill a lot of people a year and they're territorial exactly if they feel threatened and things, so as women just laid there and then more elephants started going and burying her even more, and then eventually the elephants left and she got up and obviously left as quickly as possible.

[01:01:57]

You just have to play dead. Yeah, I think that that is the wise thing to do. So outside of elephants, elephants are the best story for sure. But there are interesting behaviors that other animals do, too, with dolphins similar to elephants. They also stay with deceased relatives for days on end and they'll chase away people or birds that try to approach.

[01:02:17]

Apparently, one of the things that researchers will do is if they find a dead dolphin, they like to collect it and figure out what killed it. But there have been a couple of cases where there was a dolphin that was dead and researchers tried to go get it and dolphins like bashed them out of the way, basically, and got threatening with them. So the researchers are like, OK, I'm not going into this part of angry dolphins to try to get this.

[01:02:38]

I'll wait for them to leave. And sometimes it takes several days before they'll move on. There's also been reports of dead dolphins that are floating and then birds land on them and dolphins pop up to scare away the birds because they don't want them to get scavenged, presumably. So speaking of birds, dinosaurs, I couldn't find any birds that bury their dead just like I couldn't with elephants or dolphins. I mean, it'd be pretty amazing if a dolphin could bury anything.

[01:03:03]

But some birds do share information about dead dinosaurs, other dead dinosaurs, possibly in a morning behavior sort of way. It's kind of similar to the way elephants do.

[01:03:16]

There are several species of corvids that all do this.

[01:03:19]

I haven't been able to find any other groups of dinosaurs that do not too surprising because corvids are pretty social and they're also very smart. Western scrub jays were studied in a really formal setting, which is why I like them. As an example, the researchers placed a dead or dead looking individuals or things that looked like dead birds near the Western scrub jays and the Western scrub jays would call out to other jays and they would all gather around. And then for the next couple of days, they would spend a lot less time foraging in that area, possibly because they're were scared of predators or they didn't want to eat something that maybe killed that Jay.

[01:03:56]

Or it could be that they were gathering to mourn in some way. It's really impossible to say. Interestingly, they'll act the same if they recognize other dead birds, not just Western scrub jays. Obviously, crows are going to have a behavior because they have complex behaviors for just about everything. In this case, they're pretty similar to the Western Scrub Jays. They will call out to one another and gather and they'll also avoid food in that area. There's this really weird study where they had a person trying to feed crows and then they had someone standing like outside a cage with like a scary mask, you know, how they wear the different masks for, like friends and enemies and crows can recognize the difference.

[01:04:36]

And they had a person outside the mask just hold a dead crow out, not in a menacing way, just like holding it. It looks like she's holding it in front of her kind of with her hands in front of her like she's carrying a loaf of bread or something in front of her. And if there's a dead crow nearby, the crows won't eat. And then later, I think just that person being nearby made them avoid food as well.

[01:04:55]

Hmm. Crows. Interestingly, though, don't care if it's any other dead bird. They only care if it's a dead crow. There's enough, I guess, to realize that crows are crows and other animals.

[01:05:06]

Different things are deadly to different animals. Yeah, that could be so I'm not sure that one seems a little bit less like mourning than the way that some of the mammals were acting or crows. Just self-absorbed could be.

[01:05:20]

I mean, they're pretty social, though. I could see that argument for Ravens, but I think crows are pretty. They like each other.

[01:05:27]

Oh, I meant because they only care about what happens to crows. Oh, that way. Yeah, nothing else could be. I didn't see a test where they actually left a dead crow around them to see if they would do anything with the dead crow. And I couldn't find any reports of it on searching. But you never know what goes on. I think the comparison is kind of hard to make, though, because most birds don't dig. And unlike elephants that have a trunk where they can manipulate the environment easily, there's a lot harder for a bird to do that kind of thing.

[01:05:54]

In a large scale, they would have to gather like twigs one at a time or something if they wanted to do something like bury another crow. But Peccary is basically small. Pigs can dig and they usually live in burrows and caves, so they're very capable at digging and pigs are also pretty smart. So I was looking for a pig that might bury its dead. I thought that might be one of the most likely situations. And there is one video that shows some is coming upon a dead peccary and then standing guard over it for a couple of days, presumably to protect the carcass from scavengers.

[01:06:31]

But this is just like one video. And I think a kid did it as like a science project, not killing a pig or anything. He was just like monitoring them. And this crazy behavior happened to get caught on tape, but it hasn't been repeated or anything. It's not something that's like widely known. So I'm not sure if they even do this kind of thing that often and they didn't. Bériot Foxes, on the other hand, have buried other dead foxes.

[01:06:54]

And historically speaking, there have been some people that thought they were burying their dead in a similar way to people. But there's a big Asterix that comes with foxes. Foxes are like squirrels where they bury food for later if they like squirrel it away. Foxes do the same thing and they've been known to practice cannibalism. So it's much more likely the foxes are just burying another dead fox so they can come back to it later and eat that dead fox won a meal to go to waste.

[01:07:22]

Exactly.

[01:07:24]

So I think when you combine all that information about different vertebrates, the answer is dinosaurs probably didn't bury their dead. The only ones that I think are likely to even attempt it are small, smart species that are good at digging. So maybe like in a Rechter dreamiest type or maybe like a wooden, since they're known to be pretty smart and they might have had some digging ability, but even if they did bury them, it could be like a fox where they weren't burying them for the sake of a ritual, it could just be that they wanted to eat them later.

[01:07:56]

So even if we could prove that a dinosaur buried another dinosaur after it died, which would be virtually impossible to do, you still wouldn't know why. And I think it is pretty likely that they were doing it to squirrel away a later meal. So, yeah, it's a it's a really tricky subject to try to tackle. Another difficult thing is that an intentional dirt burial looks almost exactly the same as an accidental dirt burial. There's just so little to set them apart unless we could find a cave somewhere, maybe similar to a commonality where it looks clearly like there's only one species in there.

[01:08:35]

It looks like the animals had to be moved there. Somehow you could find something like that. I think you might be able to make a case that it was intentional. But even with this hominid find from two hundred thousand years ago, there's a lot of people that don't believe that it's a burial site. So going another 60 million years into the past is going to make it really difficult to prove.

[01:08:56]

Yeah, I don't even know what you'd need to prove. Yeah.

[01:08:59]

So I think this one will always be in the realm of you could safely use historical fiction and some modern evidence to claim that dinosaurs buried their dead with branches or leaves or maybe even tried to bury them a little bit in a cave or something because animals have been known to do this kind of stuff and it wouldn't leave any obvious evidence. So we really just I think it's one of those things we'll never know, be really cool if someone figures out a way to know.

[01:09:28]

Time travel. Yeah, that's probably the best way. That wraps up this episode of A.I. Now.

[01:09:36]

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe in your favorite podcast app to our show so you don't miss out on any new episodes and join our community Patriots Dotcom's A.M.. Thanks again.

[01:09:48]

And until next time to me, I'm a dinosaur. Little game of.