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Welcome to Inside the Green Room with Peevey three each week, Pete Vargas, a third. Yes, that's me. Let you inside his virtual green room to hang out and learn from the meeting planners who control the most prestigious stages in the world and from the speakers who use those stages to increase their income and impact. Now let's dive into the green room. Hello and welcome to Inside the Green Room with PV three.


I'm your co-host, Blair, Brian Nichols. And we are coming to you live and in the Your Events Matter Facebook group. And we've got Andrew Muller with us today. Before becoming a marketing entrepreneur, Andrew Muller worked for Microsoft in their PPC division. His company, Andrew Miller, Creative, now specializes in a new type of hyper agile market testing called the Market Testing Incubator, where he's able to test hundreds of ideas in a month.


His average market test costs two dollars and sixty three cents, with the goal of lowering lead costs. He helps clients who are spending thousands on media buying a month but aren't getting the RCI they need. Welcome, Andrew.


Hey, how's it going? Great.


So happy to have you here. And this is such an interesting topic. You know, so many of our listeners are business owners, speakers and and running their own events. And nowadays in this virtual environment, ads and digital marketing are the name of the game. So it's great to have you and your expertise to share about what they what they could be doing better. Hey, thrilled to be here.


So I just want to I would like to jump in and learn kind of a little bit more about how you got started in your company. I know you were at Microsoft. So what led you to kind of go out on your own and start your business to help other folks and in this in this industry?


Yeah, well, I'd love to I'd love to say that to take credit for it. But, you know, eventually I just got laid off. So it's like, OK, well, how can we take the skill and and do something with it? So I was a freelancer for quite a while. So one of the things that happens if you're in advertising, especially, you know, if you're not at the top of the food chain, is that people deliver you their ideas and tell you to run them and say, OK, this is going to be the advertising campaign, like, why don't we run?


I mean, I'm sure lots of people listening probably have done that to someone and said, OK, it's going to be our initiative and whatnot. And I just started to notice this pattern where some campaigns were, no matter what I did, they just didn't seem to improve and they were basically doomed from the start. And that and I just became this puzzle. And I eventually I started realizing that. We should be vetting these ideas before we even start the campaign, like we should find out if they're going to be winners before we get started.


And that's that's where market testing, where that motivation came for for me to be like I need to figure something out to do this, because it's like especially if you spend months planning a campaign. So, yeah, I moved I moved up from that spot to being able to do the strategies, but I still hadn't developed a real I really just had a theory and my own judgment from experience, I still didn't have a way to actually vet an idea.


And that's and that's where it became very, very important to me. And then I finally was able to solve this problem where we don't start campaigns unless we already know they're going to succeed from the start. So it's it's pretty good to be able to predict the future and predict what's what's going to happen for you ahead of time. And I think that I think that very successful entrepreneurs are able to do that in general. And I mean, we're always told, oh, yeah, do your market research this.


I have this old book on my bookshelf. That's forty nine essential tips for local advertising and it goes through all do. There's like one page on your market research and and then people look at that, they go, wow, that sounds great. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with that information. I'm not sure how I would research it. I guess I could Google some ideas, but, you know, nobody really knows how to carry it, carry out that idea.


Right. And and I mean, you get into a higher level and then you can start paying for focus groups and you can start paying market research companies a lot of money. But for a local entrepreneur or just a small like a small team of less than 10 people, I don't I don't really know how to do market research to find out the demand in this area. I mean, I guess if you're Gordon Ramsay, you just take a stroll around the block and there's there's nineteen Italian restaurants here, but there's no steakhouses.


So maybe we should like it. Usually it's not that simple. Like when you're trying to think, OK, what's going to be what is this audience of a thousand people that I'm walking on stage want to hear? You can't just walk around the neighborhood and find out what that is. People don't know. There's no method. So that's that's what I do is and Facebook ads is an amazing, amazing goldmine where you can start to validate ideas. And that's and that's typically where I start all of my ad campaigns.


Now, that's amazing.


You know, so many creative industries wish that they knew that they had a winning idea when they you know, before they release you, you think about the movie business. And then if a movie doesn't, you know, isn't a big hit, the opening weekend, they kind of know that it's dead in the water. You know, it's there's such a reliance on that big opening and so much money is spent on market research and marketing in general. But really, it's coming down to these creative ideas in these in these creative people that are trying to just, I guess, exercise their best judgment on what's going to work.


But really interesting to think about how you can actually validate and test these things before before you go out there. So kind of walk us through what that process looks like. You know, a client comes to you, they want to grow their business, obviously. How do you get them started on testing? How do you start to break down the process for figuring out what's even worth testing? How do you pre validate and then kind of walk us through what that looks like?


Well, before before I get to that answer you were just mentioning about the movie industry, even they don't know how to test it. That's exactly what's it like?


It's like, well, we've already tested it. We spent three hundred million dollars on that last movie and it sold well. So let's just keep it safe and do a sequel. And that's why I'm all you see in theaters are sequels and and that's identity and reboots. Yeah. Yeah. Sequels and reboots because we already tested that. And so, so knowing that you have a good idea that's very valuable to people, people will put these companies will put hundreds of millions or billions of dollars into this.


I mean, luckily they're making money along the way and I try to do a similar thing. So as far as where we start, it's you always start at the avatar. So what? Usually people make an avatar. It'll be like this, this customer avatar. It'll be this one page thing and it'll say what magazines they like and what authors they like and some things like that. I actually really hate avatars like that. Like I think that they are useful.


It's it's a good to have that picture and why not have it if it's true.


But you're talking about an ideal customer that a client has in mind, and that's they're the avatar for those of you might not be familiar with this kind of. Terminology they envision or they kind of make assumptions or maybe they do some preliminary research around who their ideal customer or avatar is.


Yeah, yeah. So I mean, if you're Coca-Cola, you have a different avatar than Mountain Dew. Mountain Dew. It's like, OK, it's going to be some gamer. I mean I mean, you know, that that's that's their target because that's what the advertising looks like. Right. And then and Coca-Cola is probably going to be like an older audience. And Pepsi was always like about the younger audience. And it's like it's just syrup. It's not like they really just invented all of these customer segments.


Just they just invented them out of thin air. Typically, you won't invent your types of customers out of thin air. Typically, you're like, I'm going to this conference. I know what type of people are going to be. They're they're they're like all boomers and. Yeah, yeah. You usually usually you can just read where you're going to go, where some renovation company and it's everyone who comes to us is always empty nesters because they're like you start to usually have been in business for a while and you have an idea of who your customers are.


And you can usually drill down to two or three main types of customers. And then what you do is you have usually make a sheet about each of those customers and it's going to have OK, here. Are there common problems here, their interests and that's and maybe have a little photo of the person with that, that it's like, hey, this is Nate and Nate is an engineer at the city and he's got two kids and lives in a townhouse, but they're thinking of upgrading to a single, you know, like like you kind of write these little stories about people to kind of and it's supposed to help you with with writing.


So, I mean, lots of companies don't even have very good avatars. But what I like to do when I when I build avatars is I will write them like a hundred problems that that person has. Like, usually people have four or five problems that are kind of the main problems that they have with this product. It's like you guys work with speakers and the speaker comes in and it's like, well, what's the speaker avatar look like? It's like, I'm just going to do a generic one because you guys probably have a few different avatars.


And it's like, well, I don't know which topics to pick for my speaking gig. I'm not sure how to book speaking gigs that are actually going to bring us business versus ones that are a waste of time. Like what's one or two other problems that would come up on your guy's avatar?


Yeah, I mean, I think it's really figuring out the ideal audience and then the right types of events and and and then how to get in front of them to understand their problems uniquely. A lot of speakers say I can talk to anyone or my message applies to anyone. You know, you can pitch me anywhere. So they have a hard time really kind of narrowing that focus and figuring out what's really the ideal avatar, I think, at times.




And so what happens to your customer as a result of that is because because when they say I can market to anybody, that's not really a problem to them, it's like, well, I don't have a problem. But the problem I really have is I just don't know how to market myself, you know, and that's the problem that they experience from there from a first person point of view. And that's how I always write down problems. It's like I don't I don't know, to market my my my speaking opportunities or myself as a speaker.


So what we start by doing is testing those problems and we test the terminology from that first person point of view. It's like, yeah, I'm not sure how to get speaking gigs that will actually bring our our company business. I will make a Facebook ad that says that that exactly. And I'll I'll target it to my to my customer avatar, which will be usually around. Yeah. So it would be what speakers like probably business owners and crossed with some sort of public speaking interests would be something like that.


Usually if I, if you if you want to target business owners, I find you like target people who manage a Facebook page. That's that's kind of like a little a little inside tip for trying to target business owners. But so we'll I'll run those tests. I'll run like one hundred of those tests and I'm going to and then at the end of it, I'm going to know which problems people are really resonating with. Which ones are they clicking through to our to our website, which I mean, it's just it's not like there's some grand final in place or some off or something like because we're just doing a very preliminary amount of testing.


And this is the type of thing that I think anybody could do. I mean, like we go really, really deep into optimizing ads and optimizing our landing pages to try to we don't want a two percent conversion rate on our opt in page. We want a thirty percent conversion rate. And I do a lot of that. And but these initial tests are something that anybody can do. I mean, you can go on YouTube and it's how do I run a Facebook ad?


And spend 40 minutes just getting the getting the basics down to kind of see how the interface works. It's actually pretty easy. You just to create AD and it asks you what content you want and I'll be yeah, but I'll make like and I wouldn't even make fifty or one hundred. I would make eight like just your hair. The top problems. I want to know which one resonates with the customer the most immediately. And what you're learning is not so much what the customer's biggest problem is, but what you're learning is what problem grabs people's attention from a surface level which and that's that's piercing the market.


And people don't usually know how to pierce the market. They go, I have this I have this rich service. But when I talk about it, nobody knows what the hell I'm talking about because I don't really have a way to talk about it that pierces people's initial surface level psyche where they go. Oh, I'm really interested in that, actually. Right. Because what people want and what will cure their attention is very, very, very different things.


I want to I want to do world class speaking gigs and I want to have tons of business and and be super successful. But if you put that in an ad, they're just going to be like, well, I don't really believe you can do that for me anyways. Like, you're just I want a million dollars. And I saw an ad that says, hey, what a million dollars. It's like, I'm not going to click on that because I just that's obviously just spam.


So whereas maybe if you guys have a testimonial of somebody who describes those problems, in particular verbiage, you can communicate that to somebody in a different way that actually is credible or pierces their attention. So it's about finding which of those problems actually gets people in the door, which one gets their attention and brings them in. And then we can talk about the amazing thing that they actually really need. But sometimes what people want and what people need are different totally.


And sometimes they don't even know it's a problem that they have until they see that or they hear about it. You know, I would assume and I think a lot of people assume that sounds like that sounds expensive, you know, testing all these different things running. I keep hearing about how expensive Facebook ads have gotten. So, you know, I know you your business is really modeled on how this doesn't have to be an expensive process or the really the best practices for doing that.


So, so kind of challenge that like, is it expensive to do all this testing before? You know, I just want to get my ads out there. I want to you know, I want to invest in the ads that are going to work.


Well, I have a few thoughts on that. The first is a general philosophical thought, which is what's that? What's that phrase about? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, right? Yeah. Yeah. That that applies very, very heavily to testing. So in my younger years, I launched lots of products and lots of different products and whatnot. And I did no testing to see if people wanted them. And I would launch guides on how to use some software.


That was very complicated. But but there was already an infinite amount of free information on YouTube. And it was like, why would somebody want this? And it's like the quality of the content was good, but nobody wanted it. So we didn't sell anything. We couldn't even give it away for free at some point, you know, with some products. Right. So, I mean, how much time did it take for me to develop that like six months to to make this thing?


And if I just had a way to test it, I probably could have figured out in a day that nobody even cared and nobody wanted it. So just to frame the problem that you're creating by not testing is is you can waste a lot of time. So the first thing that I would say is if you're going to do a if you're going to run a little ad, first off, do it wrong. That's OK. Just do it because everybody's very intimidated to get started.


Doing it wrong is you're already going to learn something just by looking at the data. So to give some really specific parameters, run your ad to four hundred impressions. That means four hundred people see that that is not expensive on Facebook. That should cost you like three five, seven dollars depending on your niche to run an ad like that. So that's not very much money to to commit up front. So I mean, if you're in three or five ads, it's like twenty bucks here.


It is not a big deal. And now you are kind of getting in the game. And really what you're trying to see is which of these ads has the highest click through rate, which is a click through rate is of one hundred people saw the ad, then one person clicked it. That's a one percent click through rate. So I was showing it for four hundred impressions. That's four hundred viewings of the ad. And we want get at least four or five people click on that to we at least get a one percent click through rate or is it like point one percent and or nobody clicked on it.


And it's like immediately if you run five or ten ads you are going to get a very different idea of how people are responding very, very quickly. You're going to be like, oh, damn, this one like three times as many people clicked on and I almost ran the other one word that. No. You clicked on and I almost went to this huge conference with something that I can see that nobody is interested in so or so like all my headlines, like I just test them.


Like if you're running a blog article or free for your thing, it's like, yeah, we're going to test those headlines and see and see which ones people click on at least a little bit. And it's like, yeah, it costs me like 20 bucks or 50 bucks if I'm going to run 15 ads or something like that. So it's not it's not expensive. Just don't run them for a lot of impressions. Like I see people, they'll run to like five thousand, ten thousand impressions and be like, oh, you know, I don't know if I have enough data.


And it's like you have enough data. Like you don't need to be that certain. Like we're just looking to signal like it is. And you can see signal like I ran an ad yesterday and it's for for like a musician and we had one of our ads had five clicks for that, for that four hundred impressions and then the other one had sixty five for Florida. So it was like OK, we had a one percent click through eight here and a 13 percent here and it's like holy cow and I can run that ad over and over again.


I'm going to get the same result. I don't need to run it to five thousand impressions because people are always worried about statistical certainty. So I need to get a lot of data to know that this is certain. It's like it is not a fluke that you got sixty five clicks on that tiny map that never happens. Like that's how, you know, you have a winner that you should keep going with that in that place. So it's it's about looking for a signal and not being, oh, do I ever like we're not scientists here.


We're not we're not testing a vaccine, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It was an interesting point that we talked about before is, you know, all we hear about today's big data, big data, big data and maybe four huge companies and big million billion dollar researched products like that, you might need to do that. But when we're talking about speaking topics or EA products or things that are not costing that much to develop, you talk about the agile testing methodology.


I think that's what we're talking about in rapid testing, that small that actually applies to most businesses. You don't need big data for these things. So, you know, keep going with that because I think that's really interesting. And I think it's something that people probably is a fallacy.


Most people don't don't realize what big data can be great. But here's an idea. Instead of running a hundred ideas, so you're so you're doing a speaking topic. It's like, OK, I came up with 50 that I started with one hundred, so I'll stay with a hundred. I came with one hundred headlines for my speaking topic and they're all different. They're not going to be like little variations. It's like seven ways you can do this or five ways you can like make them totally different headlights, totally different topics.


You're I mean, go back to that customer avatar stuff and find your winners and write headlines that are around those big problems. You know, it's like I want to get more business from my speaking events than maybe your headline for your thing is how to get more business from your speaking events or, you know, you can kind of take a few different ideas and mesh them together into one mega headline. And sometimes it works. So but if you're going to do one hundred, do you want to spend five thousand dollars testing those one hundred ideas?


Or you could spend like three hundred bucks and then take the top three winners and then run those and spend like fifty dollars each on them to make sure that they're actually winners. Run them for longer because you go here's my one hundred ideas. These three by far have the best performance. Now we're going to run those four for fifty dollars each. So now you spent three hundred bucks on your hundred ads and then another hundred and fifty to run those three.


So now you spent four hundred fifty bucks instead of five thousand just by changing the order like you don't you. If you're not getting any signal running each ad to fifty dollars in ad spend is not going to get you more signal. It's like you're just going to learn more precisely that your ad sucks or that your headline sucked. And I put hardly anything in these. Like if I was doing one for Andrew Miller creative, I'll just have an image like I'll go into Canada, I'll just put some text on, like a pretty plain background.


And it will it will say, like, I mean, my bio is all been tested. Right. So I had this one that says we're spending thousands of dollars on media buying a month, but we're not getting the ROIC we need. And the ad the ad will just say learn more and it'll just say, and your mother creative advertising advice or expert or something like it's really, really generic, everything else, because we're not trying to win on these on these testing ads.


We're just trying to see them in in a silo compared to each other. They can all do terrible. But, you know, some are doing less terrible than the others, you know, so so that's why it's OK to do this wrong, to start, because you're comparing amongst your own ideas, like unless you literally have access to your competitors at accounts, you don't have anything else to. Compared to and that's the case, everybody's in any ways like this is not a problem I created for you.


So, yeah, so it's it's like you don't I have some specific parameters that I use because, like, I'm looking for kind of particular costs, but you don't have to do exactly what I do for this to be extremely valuable. And it's very cheap. It's not a lot of money. How do you hope?


I know it's something you talk about is really not, you know, not using like we talked about at Avatar, not using the in-house lingo, not using the vernacular that people might not be familiar with you as the expert, as the speaker, you know, your topic area and you think that everyone else kind of speaks the language.


But how do you get them out of that mindset to really put it in plain speak, like you said, like to really address the problems that their audience or their clients may have, but in a way that they're going to understand what they're talking about and not try to make the language so high level or nesh that it doesn't resonate with anyone.


Well, this process will fix that for you, because all of the lingo that your audience doesn't understand like those those ads will do terrible because you'll just be like, oh, those were not winders. People did not resonate with that language. I know a guy here this year. So here he runs a board game company and they raise like a million dollars on Kickstarter in a week this year. So in the end, he used the same method, like we've kind of collaborated on this sort of stuff.


Right. And so what he what he said was selling an entertainment sort of entity is different than selling. Like if you're doing a business where you saw very big problems and selling board games, what problem do I saw? I want to have I want to play a fun board game. Like that's the problem that you solve. Like, it's you don't you don't really get into that sort of stuff because copywriting one on one sales comp is usually you start with a customer's problem and it's like, yeah, it doesn't really work with entertainment.


And like you don't see magazines being like how George Clooney like like you want to see the salacious gossip like you don't want they're not really solving problems, like getting you food from the grocery store faster, like it's not that sort of thing. And what he said is that working with keywords and I don't mean like Google keywords, but there are certain key phrases that really trigger people. And he said so, for example, Family Game Night was the one he told me.


So that elicits emotions in people because it makes them remember a memory. If you have a very dysfunctional family, maybe it's not so good. But but he said it worked really well, really well in their marketing and locating that key phrase, this piece of vernacular that the audience immediately understands and elicits an emotion from, that was a really, really important part of marketing and entertainment entity and how they raised a million dollars on Kickstarter doing this. So if you start testing your messaging like Testament's or take a testimonial from your customers, throw it in one of those ads and see if it see if it works, because I will tell you, some of your testimonials will resonate way more than others.


And that's if you're if you're building a website for your speaking business or for your I know that you guys teach a lot of people who have regular businesses to speak and promote their promote their businesses. Well, what testimonials should you have on that home page? And you better have some very good testimonials in your own bed. You need social proof, write well, test it and you'll find out. So as far as I have found that sometimes I've used jargon that did really well and I didn't expect the audience would be familiar with that jargon and they were.


So it it can go both ways. I can keep you from patronizing people to buy by dumbing down your message too much. And maybe your audience is more sophisticated than you think they are.


Right. So to use all approach, maybe not hyper technical terms, but language that if your audience is niche or if you have a specific audience, they might resonate with that. So just just really obviously have impressed upon us the importance of testing. You also talked about preventing your audience with a questionnaire. So how do you deploy those?


What how do you put those together going beyond even, you know, an ad test, right?


Yeah. So, yeah. So this totally gets this is more the methodology of doing things quickly. And I mean, this is just good, good, good, good speaking sense. Like when I'm done speaking gigs in the past, I did this one for the PGA of British Columbia, the Golf Association, and it was like all the marketing managers. And so I said, OK, listen, send this questionnaire to everyone. You know, there's one hundred and fifty people coming to this event.


It's like every country club in the province and ask them what their top three biggest problems are in their business. So I just eventually I think I got about one hundred responses back. So not everybody, not everybody did it. And I mean, if you're doing like a really mass, like there's like five thousand people, it might be hard to get this. But if you have, like, a good event organizer, they'll totally do it for you.


And I just I just compiled them all and categorize them. And I was like, OK, here's the hundred problems. 50 of them are worth. Related to to this so that so that's what the problem is, I'm going to speak on it. When I went on stage, I said I literally just told him, I said, hey, this is what I did. This is the answers that you guys gave me. So that's what this presentation is going to be on.


And it sounds really simple and like kind of blunt like you shouldn't I be, like, dazzling people a little bit more. But people are very engaged. They were very happy. I mean, I like to talk to an audience a lot. I like to ask people questions and single them out and get into full on like dialogue and Q&A, because I think that's really, really engaging. The guy who went on before me was far more experienced and went through about five thousand points.


Like I was like, oh my gosh. Like I could not even have marketing is my gig and like, I could not even get close to follow. This is way too much information. And I was like, man, this guy's probably done about a hundred times the gigs that I have done, the speaking gigs that I've done. But like, people were really thrilled because they know that it's for them and that's what people want. It's like, is this for me?


And it's like, oh, well, I asked you that question. I give you this answer. And now you're doing the topic based on something I asked. It's like that also makes people feel special. So that's that's a tactic I really like because I know I'm walking into a gig. I go, I don't know, I don't like country club managers. I don't know frickin anything about these sorts of people. But I know at least a few of their problems now and and now.


It appears as if I as if I know them because I'm I'm talking to something that they care about. Right.


Well, in five thousand points is way too much to digest. You know, we talk about only having one, maybe three main points you want to get across in Akino, but an hour long keynote or less is not that is not a master class.


It's not designed to cover a semester's worth of information.


So I think that your presentation probably resonated a lot more because it's it's it's accessible. People are able to just grasp on and solve one or two problems they may have rather than trying to absorb all of that information. So that makes me think about our audience that are also planning events, meeting planners and how maybe they can be using some sort of questionnaires. And as they're registering people to even figure out what types of speakers they want to go, go find, I mean, it might be counterintuitive.


Usually you you book the speakers and then you market to your audience to to bring them in and to book them, but maybe even post event before your next event like this is sounds like a really great methodology to really figure out what your audience wants to hear about and what problems you can solve for them through this event. You know, by really looking at all of the different things and then going out and finding speakers that kind of address those those issues, is is that something that, you know, you feel like is kind of on par with what you do?


Or is that does that resonate with you?


It's a different version of it, right. It's if you're like because people don't know what to ask, like I did sales for quite a while and it's like, here's how you here's how you do sales. Just ask people what their problems are and then tell them back to them what their problem is at the end. It's like, OK, listen, we've had four meetings. These are the ten problems that I've heard for you. Here's my proposal to solve these ten problems.


And they're like, great. I don't know what else to say about problems. Shake your hands and close the deal. Like it's like if you're not sure, like any time I get stuck in a sales meeting, it's like I'm talking to someone who is way above my pay grade or any any sort of intimidation or. Yeah, I'm going to like this big event. It's like just find out people's problems, because now you know that you have them hooked as like I don't even need to.


It's so simple. It's so ridiculously simple. And you think, oh, I'm doing this special sort of business. It's like, yeah, but if you know what people's problems are, then you're going to know what to talk about, even if you're just a complete fish out of water and just thrown into somewhere that's like a totally other world. Like this is a universal language that people speak. So, yeah, I would say I mean, hopefully if you're organizing events, I think it would be good as if that you have the problems.


It's like you you talk to the speakers, you say these are the problems that our audience faces. And now you've armed your speakers to be able to do it. And, you know, maybe they'll take if if they if the speaker understands the value of a problem, they're going to take that seriously and cater their presentation. If they don't really understand that, they're going to just do whatever they were going to do anyways. And that's fine. And maybe that'll work out for them if they have a tried and tested way of doing doing things.


I know. I know George Carlin did something very interesting with his comedy, because normally I think comedians, they will kind of get this tried and tested material and then stick to it. And he's in every season, he would throw out all his material and have to write completely brand new material. And I think he credit that a lot to becoming such an insightful person, having to constantly invent stuff and not rest on your sequels and your reboots and, yeah, have to do something completely new.


So it's funny you brought that up.


And I know, you know, you work in the arts and. Entertainment as well, and I know that comedians say they test their their jokes. That's why they do these smaller gigs are they show up at an improv night, you know, even big famous people. I live in L.A., so, like up on Sunset Strip, there's like three or four big comedy places. And you don't expect Dave Chappelle or other big people, but they will because they want to try out new material.


And that's how they kind of get that direct feedback right away to figure out what's what's working.


I want to circle back to events, though, because that's a big part of our audience. And I really like what you're saying. You know, we teach our speakers who are our clients when they get on these calls with meeting planners to ask a lot of questions.


And it's really to what you're saying, like not just, you know, what are your goals, what are your objectives, but really what are the problems? Figuring out how they can then cater their message to solving those problems is what's going to make for an impactful presentation. And if they haven't booked you already, it's just going to demonstrate to the meeting planner how you are so committed to customizing and figuring out how you can best serve them. And that's that.


Those are the speakers.


You get invited back again and again and again.


But so many of the events that I see marketed, it's you know, they're putting the speakers out there, but it's it's a lot about like the flash and the bang and like the catchy title that they called it.


And I don't I don't see them really doing a lot to say. Like, this is what you're going to walk away with. This is the problems that we're going to solve for you or help you think through.


You know, why do you I don't know. Why do you think that is. But, you know, how do you do that where you're still kind of creating kind of, you know, excitement around that, the quality and the caliber of the event. But you're also getting very specific around what why someone should attend. And a lot of times I feel like that kind of gets lost in the glossiness event.


Well, I don't have an answer for you because I would test that.


I would if if we were getting into, say, we were marketing an event that you guys had or that somebody that's there or a conference, I would really I would probably be doing individual testing for each conference to find out what sort of messaging people really responded to. I don't think that I've honed in on the exact problem that you're talking about, like I heard you talk about maybe just too much too much flash or not enough meat or like. Can you clarify that a little bit?




I mean, I feel like the ads I would see are just like the title of the conference or maybe some of the speakers. And so they're hoping that that's enough of the draw.


But I really am resonating with what you're saying is that I think a lot of the reasons why people attend events is because they know it's going to help them with an area in their lives or their business. And I don't I don't see that as much of being kind of the the lead with that.


So so maybe it's just you. I think I understand approach. Yes. So why is because social proof sells and having a big name speaker is like, if you have that, that's going to really trump even some pretty good advertising copy. And we'll test our social proof, too. Like like I said, testimonials are a form of social proof. Celebrity endorsements are a huge form of social proof. We know people have been doing that forever with the Shreddies.


So really, I find when I'm working say I have a really, really difficult niche and it's a really hard audience. And like, I'm trying to drive them into a sales funnel to a landing page and they just bounce right away with nobody even sticks around to read it. I'll let you do that on purpose. I'll use really cheap, crappy Facebook traffic to just to try to make a page stickied before I start sending the expensive Facebook traffic over.


And I find the way that I get people to stick is by putting social proof and cramming it at the top at the top of the page. It's like we have one hundred thousand attendees. We have this famous guy is Tony Robbins is coming to our whatever those kind of sticky things are like. Social proof really does sell and it gets people's attention and builds credibility. So social proof, like like I'm not saying, hey, throw out everything you know about marketing because all you need to do is test people's problems.


Like you can test everything. You can test the solution that you provide in the way that you phrase it. Like I just start with the problems, because once I know the problems that I know, which kind of gives me a path, I go like if speakers are worried about getting gigs rather than converting people at the gigs, you know, I'm not going to present them a solution that's like how to convert more people at your gigs into customers.


I'm going to have a solution that's, you know, how to get more gigs on only an hour, a week or something like that. Right. Because I know what their problem is. So I'm not going to waste my time on a solution, not for a problem that I already know doesn't resonate with my audience. So social proof is just the next the next line of things. So I honestly, they might not need it for the event.


Like if you're if you're getting people to register, usually just having a few big names is going to be a really big. And that's why big names get paid so much to do the speaking gigs, it's like, I think Scott Adams, the Dilbert author, I don't know if you've ever read it.


Oh, yeah, my dad loved Dilbert. I mean, the comics, OK, but he's a he's a he's a very fascinating guy. And he talks about like when he started doing speaking gigs and he was like they were like, well, how much do you want to get paid? And he's like for like an hour, I don't know, like a thousand bucks. And then he's and then he's like, I just started telling them numbers. I just made five thousand bucks.


And they were like, yeah. And he was like ten. And like he just kept saying bigger numbers, you know, and he was like, this is so weird. Like you did not feel very comfortable. And he was just like, I don't know, it just seems so easy to like they're not even negotiating me or anything. Like I'm just going to keep saying higher numbers until until it stops. And so, like, there's a reason why people who have credibility can get paid so much.


It's not so much the quality of their presentation. It's because they can put your name on that on that bill and and get people to show up. Sure.


I mean, I'd certainly get that side of the business. That's the world that I came from. Was that paid speaking celebrity author et world. And and I know Scott actually doesn't do a whole lot anymore.


He probably got tired of getting both too often.


I'm waiting on some feedback, comments from from the audience that Katie is going to share with us.


But also I wanted to ask about you know, we talked about testing free gifts to a lot of our speakers, leverage free gifts as their way to get options. And obviously, that's a big part of their advertising or marketing. How do you test that? I mean, that's usually more like a product and things like that.


So there's there's kind of a context that goes into everything. Right? Because once you say say, say your test, I'm going to go back to what we've already spoken about, which is say you test a problem and you find that this problem really resonates with people. You are testing that on a certain audience. And you can't just walk into a room with a different audience in a different context and say, oh, for sure, this is going to do well.


You just have a reasonable insight that it's that that there's something attractive. There's something interesting about it. Right. Like I use that term market testing incubator because I tested that quite a few times and like and that's why it's the title or the branding of of the machine that the service based machine that I built. So when you talk about gifts, you can do a similar thing and test out those gifts, like test out what they're called. And and I mean, sometimes people have sometimes people have like a like a product that they give away, like the gift of some sort of, you know, year.


Go to this website. We'll give you my free book or something like that. So like testing the title of that, I mean, yeah, if you're going to give away a fruit basket or something like that, I don't know what people are like the the full gamut of what people are giving away in these things. But I think you can use this method to test that to start as well. But you're going to need to do a combination because sometimes I find that I have.


Sometimes the thing that I advertise when I'm testing out like a headline, it's almost too sexy and like it's almost too click Baity where there is so much curiosity around it, but there's very little internal need or follow through for that. So sometimes it's the second or third winner that's the real winner, where not only do people want to click on this, but they also want to follow through. And that and that will bring someone further into the funnel.


So you may find that your sexiest idea, everybody on the at the gig wants it, but they don't turn into customers. And maybe you're second or third idea. It's like these are really good winners, but there's a bit more meat on the bone, like it's more related to somebody like intense need. And now they're actually following through and booking us after it and we're actually making more sales. So you kind of you need to test and a lot of different ways.


And that's where I don't want to get too crazy into that, because that's where people are like I, I could get if if if 10 percent of the people on this did five little ad tests, like, I would consider that a blazing success to just have someone take action would actually. So I don't want to get away to do this, like where you're across testing and all this sort of stuff. But but just just be open to the fact that, yeah, you can have a winner, but then maybe, maybe, maybe it doesn't cause the person to take full action.


So I see some some questions in the chat here. Yeah. Yeah.


Well, so we have some some comments. Karen actually is a former high level executive from Microsoft. And as we were talking about, this reminds her of agile development.


But she did have a question as well. If you're starting from scratch, no less, no following, maybe a few thousand friends on LinkedIn, how would we use this kind of testing on product offerings?


I mean, I you definitely can do this starting from scratch. If I use this on a lot of startups who have nothing at all, I mean, we might I guess we would need to get a bit more specific as to what we mean on product offerings, because usually like a typical funnel is that you're seeing the market with some sort of lead magnet and then you're up selling them on, you know, some sort of bookal or on some sort of product, certain some sort of product, some sort of ecommerce sale.


Like maybe you put together some special bundle to get people onto the list.


So, yeah, I would probably need a little bit more to think about EA products, cause there's a lot of our clients do coaching, consulting or they plan their own events, workshops, things like that. So usually kind of the digital product to in person to like maybe even like high ticket coaching and consulting. Right.


Yeah. I mean I would just be testing headlines. So what like so I already ripped off a few headlines while we were talking here, like of a potential product. And you can kind of if you look at my train of thought, you see me say a problem, I go, OK, this was a good problem. I need more speaking events. That was one of the winners. So we developed a product around that problem and then maybe we'll tackle that from a bunch of different angles.


So, yeah, you can do like the very basic how to get more speaking gigs in less than an hour a week. Or you could do like a celebrity sort of callback. You be like how we used Michael Jordan's Breakfast Club routine to book more gigs, more speaking gigs or something like that. Like like there's a lot of different angles that you can take that still draw back to that to that original product. So sure that that original problem that you that you located was important.


So our product, I'm just I'm looking at a follow. Our product is a program on burnout, prevention and an up sell on coaching and consulting. So, Karen, what I would do is I would just like, I think, to starting with what pierces the market. So so the burn out prevention is going to be I don't know if it's free or if it's a low cost product or under two hundred dollars. A lot of times people will do like the seven dollar product as a way to get people in to get qualified people into their email list.


So yeah. So I would it's it's your most basic thing is how to prevent burnout, maybe in your high level executive job or something. So I would, I would just run a bunch of different headlines. I actually like to go and read it and just sort of like there's a little you can sort the top headlines and you can go all time and like go out and gone to a sub, read it. That's related to that and find out what people have.


I did this one for renovation company and we started out and it was like, just build your kitchen app. And and that sounds pretty cool. It's like, OK, you get to like customize your kitchen and whatever. And people did not care for that. I think we were paying like eighty cents a click, which depending on your niche that could be a lot better, could be not a lot. And I did a bunch of testing and I stole this headline.


From Reddit, and it was like five trends that homeowners will regret in 20 years, like on their home run. And I started out, it was like 40 cents a click. I played around some with some imagery and I got it down to like 16 cents. And then I put this little curiosity trigger in where I like I had a picture of a kitchen and I had like these two. You've seen this before. You say you have these, like, two little red circles with arrows like like maybe on like the fosset or like some lighting fixture.


And then they're like, oh, what trend? What are they pointing out there? Like, they want to see it. And so by the end it was like six cents a click for this. And we were getting leads instead of for forty dollars. They were like two dollars by by kind of testing that. So you really want to find out how to present that BERNELL prevention course. What is the headline here copyrighter. Like pay a copywriter one hundred dollars an hour like someone real good and get them to come up with like 50 headlines.


You can do the research yourself, though. You go on Google, you search burnout, prevention, you go these results. I mean, I could do that live right now if you wanted, but yeah, it's like, OK, these headlines kind of suck. OK, so when I started burnout prevention on Google, the first thing that comes up is a Healthline article that says how to identify and prevent burnout. So I'm just going to copy that headline and I'm going to search it into Google.


I'm going to I'm going to recursively put it back into Google. So now I search how to identify and prevent burnout. And I start getting people also ask, what are the five stages of burnout? OK, OK, so how about how to identify the five stages of burnout? OK, there's a honeymoon phase that's kind of an interest, an interesting idea. The first stage of burnout is a honeymoon phase. You undertake a new task and you're in and you have a lot of energy and creativity.


So, yeah, so I would probably move past that. Here, let me put a little bit of thought of the. This is why you got to join your events matter, guys, you get you get on air live live coaching, right?


Right. Yeah. So how about here's here's an idea which stage which of the five stages of burnout are you in? And it's a quiz. And then at the end at the end they put in their email and we'll we'll send you your quiz results. And now you've got the person and you can take them to the cell page. So that's something I would test. I would put a headline out that says, which which of the five stages of burnout are you in?


Or probably what I would do is someone might not know they're BERNFELD, but they might be suffering. So what I would try to do is I would write down the symptoms of burnout, symptoms of Rothamsted, Google that real quick signs your warning signs. You're burned out right on. You're exhausted now. You're turning cynical. OK, that's kind of specific. You're feeling useless. So. Are you actually useless at your job or are you just burned out so now so now you take this deep pain that somebody has and you say actually there may be a solution and it may not even be your fault or like it's your fault in some kind of way.


But just because you don't know anything about burnout, it's the stuff that you don't even know that you don't know. Right. So it really depends, Karen, on where the person is in their journey. Like, if they know that they're burnt out, then you can use the word burnt out in the headline and you'll be able to find this when you when you do some tests. It's like, you know, people aren't really responding to the word burnt out.


Like, they don't really it doesn't seem to mean anything to them all. All of those headlines with the word burnt out and it have low click rates, but they're not. And they're and they're very expensive, like high high cost per click. So, yeah. So I would take one of these specific symptoms. You hate your job. Yeah, I actually I think I think we have a pretty you can run probably five or eight versions of this.


You could take these, these signs and say, do you hate your job or are you just burned out? You know, does your mind know that one doesn't work? Is do you have to do you have insomnia to sleep is tough to get. And you have like insomnia. That's like a sign of burnout. So do you have insomnia or is your job just burning you out? Right. Like, that's a good way to phrase it. And now you can test out you're going to get a really good idea of which symptoms people are experiencing the most consciously, that they recognize that they have this symptom, you know.


Yeah, like it is. Are all those headaches. It's headaches is another sign or all those headaches. Just the sign of. Ah, just the sign of burnout. Or do you do you actually have some physiological problem or. Yeah. Or just drinking too much or too many other drugs so you can just pop all of those in. It's like you know is why you're drinking too much or maybe you're burnt out, you know. And one of those will probably Peerson, you see what I was talking about.


Like if I call back to what we were talking about earlier on, the conversation is like what you think you need and what you're going to recognize are two very different things, because like what you need is join our program to get rid of your burnout out like that. Nobody is going to really respond to that, whereas somebody saying like, hey, are you drinking too much or are you just burnt out? You're going like, what do you mean by that?


Like, I got to know where you're going to vote and then. Yeah, and then you get into ads development later. But so hopefully that helps and you can always spreadable. That's such, so much value there.


Andrew, I really appreciate it. We're going to you know, Katie already said we're going to have to have you back because there's, you know, so much more that I'm sure we could talk on on this.


But this you know, this whole topic and how you broken it down, I think is incredible. You know, this I think adds and especially digital ads have been kind of you need to be demystified for a lot of people because it just feels like it's this, like, complex code that needs to be cracked and you have to have an expert. But I think what you've shared with us today is just of really some simple steps people can take to test and really encourage people to go out and do that, because that's going to make all messages that align with your business, whether you're a speaker or an event planner or an entrepreneur in any facet that much stronger.


So I want to thank you and you for sharing all that. I do want to get to know how people can learn more about you or get in touch if they want to pick your brain or talk to you further. But I also always like to ask know if there is someone, a speaker or someone influential that kind of helped you in your personal professional life.


Was there someone that stood out to you in the speaking world or just in the influencer space?


Honestly, like that story I told about Scott Adams influenced me a lot and I didn't even hear him speak. I just read about him talking.


Zilber Dilbert's been helping corporate consultants and corporate executives finding work and burnout for years.


That's true. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I grew up like in a pretty religious household. So, like, I went to a lot of, like, church events and saw like that was like I probably ninety five percent of the speakers I've said have been at those sort of things and like some of those helped and some of those were very helpful. So I probably won't mention or mention those there enough.


Well, what how can people get in touch with you if they want to just learn more, check out any any free resources you may have to offer?


Yeah, I have some Andrew Mueller creative. My last name, Mueller. Mueller are a lot of people like to say Mueller when they see that. And I don't know why, because there's two L's which should make it a soft you. But anyways. Yeah, I don't know if. Yeah. I don't know if you guys will have a link or something.


We will, we'll have the link in the show notes, but you can check him out at Andrew Mueller. Creative Dotcom. Thank you, Andrew, again for joining us. You guys have been inside the green room with us and as I mentioned a few times, now, if you're part of your events matter Facebook group, you can join these discussions live and maybe even get some on air live coaching from our amazing guests. I hope that you will check us out at Inside the Green Room podcast.


Where we've got some free resources, you can check out and also check out any of the shows you may have missed inside the green room with PBH three, anywhere you listen to podcasts. Well, thank you again, Andrew, for joining us and all of you. And we will see you next time.


Awesome. Thanks for having me. Hey, thanks for listening to Inside the Green Room with PV three. If you liked our show, make sure you never miss an episode. Subscribe and leave a review. Wherever you listen to podcasts to see the full show notes and more resources go to Inside the Green Room podcast dotcom. Make sure to join us next week for more cutting edge actionable tips from the meeting planners who control the most prestigious stages and the speakers who use those stages to increase their income and their impact.