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Venture capital funding for clean energy technology companies has declined in recent years, but one new fund is looking to buck that trend. Dan Goldman is the co-founder and managing director of Clean Energy Ventures, and he is trying to be a catalyst and change the narrative by providing those companies with the resources they need to make long lasting positive impacts. Dan joined it visionaries to discuss the process Clean Energy Ventures goes through when selecting new companies. And he explains what differentiates clean energy ventures from other voices.


And he looks into his crystal ball at the future of the clean energy industry.


Enjoy this episode. It visionaries is created by the team at Mission Dog and brought to you by the Salesforce Customer 360 platform, the number one cloud platform for digital transformation of every experience, build connected experience, empower every employee, and deliver continuous innovation with the customer at the center of everything you do. Learn more at Salesforce.com slash platform. This podcast is created by the team at Mission Dog. Welcome to another episode of it, visionaries, I mean, Faizan, host of Visionaries, and today we have special guest.


Dan, what's going on?


Not much. How are you? And great to be on your show.


I'm honored. Thanks for stopping by. We are going to get into cleantech energy space where Clean Energy Ventures currently is. We're going to do a little bit of your background, so let's get into it. How did you get started in technology?


Great question. So I guess I came to technology through energy first and really kind of discovered a liking for energy in college at Cornell, studying mostly applied economics. And after school, I, I started working for a consulting firm called Arthur D. Little, which did technology and management consulting, was one hundred year old firm. And we did just that. But the interesting thing is I did it in the old energy economy, as we would describe it now, which was oil and gas.


So I really came up through energy and eventually technology through the traditional means of initially consulting and developing energy infrastructure around the world, spent six years in Asia and then came to clean energy in the early 2000s when I discovered that the way we developed energy infrastructure for power plants and pipelines and everything, the old energy economy could really be applied to clean energy. And so we started a private equity fund to develop clean energy projects. And then I sort of came full circle and went back to technology from where I started my career and joined the technology development company and then also started a group called Clean Energy Venture Group, which was the predecessor to the fund.


So flash forward to today. Tell me a little bit about the organization.


Sure. So what we've got today is one hundred and ten million dollar, early stage focused clean energy venture fund. We invest in early stage technologies. Business model innovations that can both grow to scale, can be profitable businesses in their own right, but also address climate change. So reduce greenhouse gas emissions as a equally important goal to the companies having financial success. Quite frankly, we've always felt that the two are interrelated because if you want to address climate change, we need to have successful and profitable companies that can grow to scale.


Otherwise we can't have the impact on on the climate. So we see those things is integrally linked. And how we came to this was back in about twenty five. Four of us started investing in each other's companies. We sat around and discussed what was happening in clean energy, which was the market at the time. And ultimately we started looking at new technologies that were coming out of universities, coming out in labs, coming out of incubators. We started making really small investments in those companies and spending a lot of time mentoring and monitoring and helping the founders.


And as we started doing that, we had more people with really, really great energy experience come to us and want to join the group. And so we started curating a group that today, all with really, really deep energy experience, really significant startup or governance experience. And out of that group, three of us formed a separate fund. And the reason we did that was over the last three to five years, we saw a clean energy opportunity that was growing very large.


And the group itself really didn't have the financial wherewithal to address the size of that opportunity. And so by forming a fund and ten million dollars, we can make more investments. We can make larger investments, follow on those investments in later rounds where we have more impact in terms of addressing climate and addressing sustainability. So that was really the journey from the development of Clean Energy Venture Group, which was effectively an angel group to formidable fund.


You know, I'm curious, like as you were having those conversations going from angels to to larger, I imagine, whether it's family offices or corporations or things like that, like I'm curious, like what were those conversations like? What was the appetite like for this? Because it seems so kind of obvious now that there should be significant capital being invested in clean energy. But I'm curious if at the time you met any resistance.


It's a great question. And so three or four years ago, we started considering raising this fund. We thought we needed to have a couple of things under our belt. One was we had to have experience in the sector and the three of us who run the fund we spent almost a decade investing in. Early stage, clean energy companies, second thing we needed to have was a track record, and luckily we had had a few exits from our portfolio and we had a portfolio that was performing quite well at the time and it's still performing well.


And then the third piece, was it sort of a differentiated strategy of how we were going to invest? And that differentiated strategy was really focused on leveraging our expertise, leveraging our network in the industry, having done this for a while. We found that they really liked that strategy. They wanted to be involved. They wanted to add their input and especially the strategic investors we have in the fund, which include both electricity, utility, electric utilities, oil and gas companies, major conglomerate, international conglomerates, banks from different countries, and, of course, the usual slate of institutional investors, registered financial advisors and family offices to achieve.


All of these people love the strategy. Some of them were concerned about the historical performance of this sector, which had a very tough financial return over the twenty six to 12 11 period. And when we explained this, why the road signs that pointed to a much different future than what we had in the past. And I liken it to kind of the first Internet bubble in the the mid to mid 1990s, which ended badly in two thousand. And then the second Internet bubble.


First one was really business models that didn't work out that well. The second one was really very compelling opportunities, revenue models and can grow to scale and be profitable. And that's what we have right now. We have an investment portfolio that has tremendous promise and in very exciting areas that need to be disrupted.


So you talked about it a little bit, but there's kind of that moment in time with clean energy where it seemed like there's a lot of technologies converging that all needed to be kind of created in order for clean energy to be to be more profitable, to be a better business model, kind of similar to software like you would like. You had mentioned a little bit where the price to actually building a profitable clean energy company seems like it might be more attainable now than it was in the past.


Is that like how are you investing? How are you looking at companies trying to build in this way? Because, you know, a lot of times the adage of shipping a prototype and and getting out an MVP isn't going to work for certain types of products and services, right?


Yes. So we have some pretty strict criteria when we see hundreds of companies every month, thousands over the course of the year. And what we really are looking for is companies that have a competitive advantage, a sustainable competitive advantage in the market that might come through intellectual property that they own, or it might be through some business model innovation. They really have to demonstrate how they will disrupt the market, either with a product service offering that's differentiated, has a value proposition for a user, or a lower cost point, which is is going to disrupt something like solar wafers or an efficiency improvement, which effectively translates into a cost improvement.


So those are really, really important for us to see in the technology. And the other piece of it is we need to see things that can reach market adoption relatively quickly. So as you point out, I think in the past we've seen technologies that took five, 10, 15 years to scale. That's not something we can invest in. It's we have a pretty strict rule. We won't invest in anything that requires more than 30 or 40 million dollars of total capital to get to profitability.


And the reason is that it's going to take 15 years. It's probably not the right opportunity for adventure. For him, it might be the right opportunity for a national lab, might be the right opportunity for a big oil company who can help a technology mature over a longer period of time and take that risk. But it's probably not the opportunity for us. And so when we look across our existing portfolio of companies that we've invested in, most of them are technologies that are either on the cusp of being adopted in the market or they already have some early market traction.


And our capital is really geared toward helping them develop that generation to technology or take their generation one and scale it up quickly. And a lot of times we end up investing in these companies. With strategic partners as well, so we like to invest with energy companies, utilities, materials companies, because they represent really, really good understanding of the markets they participate in and they ultimately can become partners and long term acquirers of our companies. So we don't typically give them special rights or our companies don't typically give them special rights.


But just having them at the table and having them provide their experience and advice to our companies, we think is a very positive thing. So that sustainable competitive advantage, though, is whether you're looking at software, hardware, new coaching technology, new transmission line monitoring technology, those are the most important thing. We have to be convinced that a company does have that sustainable competitive advantage in order to move forward diligence and make an investment.


Can you talk a little bit about the type of investments that you've made? Like what are the what is the impact that these companies are having?


So maybe I'll talk about one company called Smart Meter. And this is actually interesting because we've never really invested in anything that was had a product service offering geared toward emerging markets. But when we saw Smart Meter, we really liked the fact that what they were tackling was a market with effectively one billion people without any access to electricity and another billion people with very limited access. And what Smart Meter does is so they produce a metering technology that works really, really well in low bandwidth environments.


So and the bandwidth, meaning like cellular service and maybe infrequent CNN and their customers are typically microgrid developers who are filling a huge gap in sub-Saharan Africa and Asia, where utilities are mostly insolvent and don't have the wherewithal to develop and extend the grid. So microgrid developers come in there, they'll build the solar plus storage system and they'll hook up a village or multiple villages and they'll provide reliable power for a period of the day. And that is a very large scale opportunity.


It's one that has a lot of support from development finance institutions and as well as the private sector. And it's obviously a very, very large market. So smart meters metering platform, combined with a cloud based software service, allows the microgrid developers to effectively manage their customers. And no one was really doing this until Smart Meter came along. And the benefit that they provide to the micro developers is they can really manage the customers, which is is critical and a distributed model.


But the even more interesting part of this, the story is that they started seeing central grid distribution utilities come to them who have hundreds of thousands of unmetered customers. And to their surprise, the distribution utilities said, look, we need to start metering our customers so that we can collect the revenue for the power we supply them. And smart meter solution with a prepay meter is exactly what distribution utilities need. And then they can monitor it in the same way through a software as a service platform.


And the really interesting thing about the distribution utility side of it, though, is that the distribution utilities don't have good grid monitoring software. So by putting all these meters in smart meter can collect a huge amount of data about what's happening at the grid, at what's happening in their distribution system. And they can report to the utility whether they need more load in one place or another or they have a voltage surge in one place or another. So they're giving a huge amount of information by metering these customers back to the utility to help them to operate the grid more effectively.


We love this opportunity. They had intellectual property. They have a huge market opportunity and they had customers. And the story was, we need to grow our microgrid customers and we need to get into the distribution utility market. And so we collect around with breakthrough energy ventures and total energy ventures and very excited with the progress that made so far.


Yeah, it's a pretty incredible story and it's the type of story that it's a very venture story. Right? It's like clearly the need to have risk capital to the equation. Right. It's just too hard to figure out how to bootstrap a company like that. And they also need not just the money, but like the guidance. The expertise from you and your team that have been working on looking at problems and problems for, you know, for a decade plus, I would imagine.


Yes. And I think to kind of the broader point, that's a really important part of our strategy, which is to spend a lot of time with the management teams, helping them develop whatever strategy they are looking for. At the time, it could be intellectual property strategy. It could be how do you effectively go to market, what pricing structures work best, or it can be more engineering and operations related. So we are very much of the frame of mind that early stage companies need a lot of support.


And there have been studies by Kauffman Foundation and others that show that technology companies that are well supported with an ecosystem and with investors perform better. And so that's that's something we really believe in.


So when you're looking at these type of investments, you know, we always talk about kind of like the moonshot investments for a lot of VCs. It seems like a lot of these have kind of an incremental feel to them where it's like you can make things, you know, X percent better, whether it's heating and cooling, whether it's, you know, grids, things like that. But a lot of it is is so technology driven, not just with the creation of like new technologies, but just the software layer, as you had mentioned, where we just need to know, like we need to have data around these things, because if we don't have any data, then we can't accurately predict or forecast or figure out like what is kind of the ground truth.


Do you feel like there's a lot of just uncertainty around clean energy and therefore, like, we just don't have the the raw information necessary?


I think that is a big problem. This is such a different market than I think many of your guests probably come from where in the tech market data is almost ubiquitous these days on the Internet. But in the energy markets, data is quite heavily protected and there have not been the sensors and systems in place to really monitor and report. So data is is is looked upon as a critical resource today among many of the companies we're looking at. And whether it's a moonshot or, you know, an incremental change, I think we're looking for things that can disrupt the market.


So I consider them to be moonshots. We're not necessarily creating an entirely new market, but we're disrupting a market in such a way that hopefully has never been seen before and that results in a highly scalable technologies being implemented across many different sectors. So we definitely have the goal of building large technology companies. And I think we see in many of those instances data as as a critical piece to that. Certainly in the smart meter case in sub-Saharan Africa, they don't have the data on how the grid is operating.


But even here, if you think about all of the distributed energy resources, whether it's rooftop solar on homes, whether it's EV charging, whether it's storage systems, these are going in homes and an ever increasing pace. And utilities are sitting there saying, well, I have a meter, but I can't collect the data on what's happening at that quote unquote, where that I don't know how many houses have solar. I don't really have an aggregated load profile in a given community.


And how am I going to manage the grid? In a way, I've been doing it historically where I had central power generation wires from those generating sources going to homes. Now you have production at the edge of the grid. And so it's a whole new model that utilities need to figure out. And they need data to basically help them understand how to operate the grid with the same reliability that they were doing in an old grid model of of generation transmission distribution use.


Now, we have generation all over the place, throughout the value chain, whether it's the commercial industrial level or at the presidential level. And utilities need to adapt to that new model. So we have a company called Connector, which has a very interesting meter caller. They put on a utility meter and on that basis they can supply data back to the utility that helps them understand what's going on the grid. Yeah.


And so and I guess I was saying. Not that not that they weren't moonshiner, not that you're not looking for moonshots, but yeah, it's like the type of disruption is just a little different. Right. And those certain products that, you know, in the case that you're talking about were, you know, in sub-Saharan Africa, taking people from offline to online from an electricity standpoint is hugely impactful and important work, although it doesn't seem like, you know, at the outset, it's like something new was created.


Right. It's not like a new necessarily like, you know, a new type of of way. Things are done. It's a different way. Things are done at massive amounts of scale and it's places where it's really needed. And, you know, one of the big things that we talked about a lot was sustainability was just how you have kind of the compounding effects when if you plant one tree, it's like the carbon footprint is like over time is like massive trees to plant one tree, you know, reduces carbon carbon footprint.


And I think, like, all of these solutions end up having such a massive impact over time. You know, I know you've talked in the past about looking at things in terms of gigatons. What are you looking at in terms of like the scale and the impact that you want these companies to have long term?


Yeah. So maybe in order to answer that question, I'll use another company as an example of a company called Boston Materials, which was started by two north northeastern grad students licensing technology out of out of north eastern and out of the Swiss University. And what they figured out was carbon fiber composites, which are now used in almost everything, whether it's airplanes or cars, pressure vessels and also consumer products like acrostics and sailboats and bicycles. And a lot of other products they figured out was that we have to layer up the carbon fiber composite to make it strong in all directions.


But if you could use something to control the direction of those carbon fiber composite materials and allow you to refine what direction they're going in, then you wouldn't necessarily need 10 layers of carbon fiber composite. You can reduce it to one or two layers and put a laminate in with the aligned fibers to figure this out. And when you think about the applications of this, all of a sudden your light weighting planes are reducing the weight of of vehicles, of trucks, of pressure vessels, which might be in many vehicles, as well as compressed natural gas, hydrogen and various other things.


And most importantly, they're also using recycled carbon fiber composite materials to do this. So we looked at this and we said, well, globally, if you can get into airplanes and automotive, you are having such an incredible impact in terms of gigatons of reduction of carbon, especially given how long planes and automotive automobiles are on the road. This is a really, really large opportunity. So that's one where, you know, again, it's a disruption to an existing market.


Carbon fiber composites have been around for a long time now. But if you can disrupt that, that value chain with big partners like automotive and aerospace companies, you can build a very significant opportunity. I think we think about something like that, as, you know, somewhat like a unique commodity that can be used in so many different things. The market opportunity is so large. It's it's a very, very compelling opportunity. Likewise, we have a solar wafer technology company called Leading Edge, which radically reduces the wafer production cost wafers go in the cells which go into modules which go into panels.


And if you can reduce the wafer costs by some 50 percent, then that has a material impact on overall solar costs. Also improve the efficiency. And again, we're talking about a really, really large market opportunity for solar wafers. That's incredible.


And the there's the story. I mean, you could probably go all day. These are great.


Well, there's another sector, which I think is you mentioned sustainability in the beginning. And I think we think about climate change, obviously, as one of the most important areas of sustainability that needs to be addressed. But there's so many other areas. I mean, there's sustainability encompasses a much wider thing than just climate change. And many companies, especially Fortune 500 companies, are focused on. Environmental, social governance issues, so environmental sciences is carbon, but other things, as well as other pollutants, water and ground pollutants, and so we are seeing an increasing number of Fortune 500 companies who say, I need to measure my carbon footprint.


I need to understand my sustainability goals, whether they're being met or they're not doing that. How do I do that? How do I verify how to audit whether my facilities are using renewable energy or they're getting just, you know, the average brown energy from the grid and people within sectors like real estate, within financial services, large tech companies, Amazon to Facebook, to Google are all getting very sophisticated about how they measure their carbon footprint. And it's a very hard thing to do without a sophisticated platform.


And so we're looking at a company now that has very differentiated technology to help Fortune 500 companies measure their carbon footprint and other sustainability parameters so that it's auditable, it's verified, and they can report on it. And one of the reasons that's becoming more important is because we're seeing states and cities passed legislation requiring in the case of, let's say as an example, New York City requiring anyone who owns real estate there to meet a very stringent requirement of reducing their carbon footprint by 40 percent over the next roughly 10 years.


And if they fail to do that, they are subject to very, very significant fines. So in that context, real estate companies are asking themselves, how am I going to figure out whether I even reduced my carbon footprint by 40 percent? I don't have that data. I don't know if the data I even have is is accurate. So this is a platform that is addressing corporate responsibility, corporate sustainability focus, which we expect will by necessity grow in the coming years, partially as a result of city and state legislation, maybe federal legislation, but also because of financial reporting as well.


Shareholders are demanding us. Yeah.


How much do you think outside pressure is going to put on the industry? Because, you know, I know for interest in investing in your fund, there is a ton of interest in that. And people want to be part of the solution. But, you know, as we've talked about on this show before, people just don't know where to plug in. They don't know where they can support it. They don't know where their company can support. Obviously, you know, investing in a fund like yours is one way to do that.


But I'm just curious.


Yes, I think I think it's a really challenging market because there's not an enormous amount of transparency to plug in as a corporate and say, oh, just invest in this or I'll just invest in math. And of course, the risk profile of corporates is by necessity, they're quite risk averse. And so it takes them a long time to get comfortable with where their risk appetite pits with a particular type of investment. We're seeing lots of announcements today. Amazon announcing a two billion dollar venture fund that's on top of their 10 billion dollar commitment to reach their 20 30 carbon neutral goal.


I believe it's 20, 30, and we have other large corporates who have announced funds as well. So I think right now we're at the embryonic stage of a kind of clean energy market and it's getting better. But I think it's very challenging for corporates to figure out how to plug into this space. Many corporates are more aligned with investing in assets, so if they want to purchase wind power or solar, they can invest in an asset. And that's a little bit easier of a risk profile for them to understand.


But I think by necessity, we need more capital flowing into the technology side, because unless we can bring innovative technologies to market, it's going to be very, very challenging to meet the climate objectives that need to be met immediately as soon as possible, because we're way behind in our ability to to address the climate crisis, to address the greenhouse gas emissions that will be in the atmosphere by 2050. And so there's there's not only more interest in in addressing that issue, but now there's also a whole other category of resilience to do something about the fact that we're not going to be living.


In the same sort of world in 20 or 30 years that we see today, therefore we're going to need to take action to build resilience into all of our infrastructure. So I think there's there's two ways corporates are looking at it. I've been very surprised at if you look at incubators and accelerators like Greentown Labs, which we have in the greater Boston area, the types of corporates that are coming to the table there and are interested in clean energy. It's quite a broad spectrum from State Street to chemical companies to oil companies to consumer product companies like Unilever, and they're all interested in engaging with clean energy technologies that can help them address problems.


So what do you think is kind of next for the startup ecosystem, for those entrepreneurs that are out there trying to figure out problems that are trying to work on problems like this, where people just want to plug into companies like your portfolio company? Like, do you think that there's going to be a wave of more clean tech startups coming? I mean, obviously, you know, here's to hoping, but yeah. What do you think that the actual startup ecosystem is like?


I think there will. I mean, if we look back and we have a long trend line of history going back to the early 2000s and we just look at, you know, the quality of the companies and the number of companies we're seeing now versus, you know, 15 years ago. It's quite dramatic. And I think there are a couple of things that are happening that make it much easier to start a company and to progress through those early, you know, sort of challenging pilot and and kind of lab and pilot demonstration stages.


And some of those are just the fact that there is a better ecosystem in many places across the world. There's a lot of financial support from corporates supporting that ecosystem, and then they're just better tools and techniques for advancing your technology. So that could be like rapid prototyping facilities where you can you can make something literally overnight through a 3D printer as opposed to sending it out to a shop and waiting three months to get it back. So there's a whole range of, I think, technology development tools that are helping entrepreneurs bring things to market faster.


And obviously, the challenge right now is being able to do things like that during a global pandemic. We're seeing some some very innovative approaches that our portfolio companies are taking. So it's really good to see the ingenuity there. And then the other thing I would say is I think there's going to be really radical change in how companies approach both diversity, equity and inclusion in their companies. I think there's an entire market that has sort of been excluded from the clean energy ecosystem, partially because awareness, partially because the clean energy ecosystem really hasn't reached out.


It's a that's that's quite a white male ecosystem and that needs to change dramatically in the coming years. And also just the recognition that historically energy assets, particularly polluting energy assets, have been developed in some of the most disadvantaged communities in the country and in the world. And the goal is to shut those power plants and other facilities down and replace them with with clean energy and serve those communities with low cost resources that can be built in the communities and involve communities like that.


So we're really intent on helping develop this. We have a long way to go. We have a lot of learning to do within the clean energy ecosystem. But I think there's a huge opportunity for improving it and bringing more people of color underrepresented minorities into this ecosystem for the better of those startups and for the better of the ecosystem as a whole.


Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And, you know, obviously, it's one of one of the things we focus on in this podcast is is trying to find as many diverse voices as we can, you know, to talk about these things. You know, I think at the end of the day, you know, funds like yours are the are the way to do that. Right. You need to invest in diverse founders and portfolio companies that need to hire diverse folks because it's the only way.


Right. It has to. That's the lead with with money and with and with jobs and making sure that we're building products and services that are for for everyone, you know. Yeah, exactly.


Built by everyone and for and for use by everyone.


Well, we're about to get into our lightning round here. But before we do that, just any any final thoughts on the future of clean energy?


Yeah, well, so one thing I'll just. Mention is, you know, like I said at the outset, that combined goal of financial success and carbon reduction is critical to our strategy. And when we were starting this, one of the things we asked ourselves is, well, how do we measure greenhouse gas emissions for a company that, you know, might not have a product in the market cap? And so we started looking around the tools and really didn't find anything that was kind of well developed.


We saw an initiative called Krein, which is developing kind of an industry wide tool to use to assess carbon emissions reductions. That's going to take a while for that to come to fruition. So we actually built our own carbon reduction emissions reporting model. And what we do is when a company comes to us to pitch, we ask them to fill in a pretty simple spreadsheet that gives us a sense of what their business plan looks like over the next 30 years.


What what kind of growth rate you're going to see, what kind of domination are you going to have in a particular market? And if you achieve that business plan, what does that mean for carbon reduction? So you can just tie one to one if you install three million solar panels and replace a certain number of megawatt hours of power generation from traditional sources of oil gas? Well, what does that mean in terms of your reduction and the companies that have applied for funding?


Love this because they want to know that the answer to that as well. And so what we can do is we can separate the impact from one company against another and look at where our company is going to have the greatest impact. And again, that aligns very well with our ability, with the ability of our companies to scale and the significant parts of a market. So you can show really large carbon reduction impact and you're likely going to be showing a pretty large scaling and profitable business model.


So that's one thing that over time we've really worked on developing. And I think it still has a ways to go, but it's been a very useful tool for us as we diligence companies.


OK, let's get into our lightning round. These questions are fast and easy, just like the Salesforce Customer 360 platform. You can go to Salesforce.com slash platform to learn more about building digital transformation for every experience on the number one cloud platform that is Salesforce. Check them out. Salesforce.com slash platform. They've been with us since the very beginning of this podcast. We love them dearly, so check them out. Lightning round questions. Dan, are you ready?


Ready. Number one, what app on your phone is the most fun Strava?


Do you have a favorite book or podcast that you've read or listen to recently that you enjoyed? I like make green, eat green, I believe it's called call me on that.


Make green leafy green. I don't know if I know. I haven't read it. I'll check it out.


Do you have a skill or habit that you picked up during shelter in place?


I have been doing more stretching and yoga than I've ever done in my life, but that's not saying I'm doing a lot. So I don't know if I'd call that a skill, but it's something I need to do more. I've been enticed to do it with my kids, which is been great.


If you weren't investing in clean energy, what would you be doing?


I think I'd be working at a university in some form and probably still advising startups, because I think one of the things I like best about this is really helping entrepreneurs scale their businesses.


What is your best advice for a first time? Clean Energy founder is very conservative in your forecasts.


That is spoken like a true v.c, that is for sure.


What about your best advice for a first time VC?


We like to be quite analytical and I think there's times when you can be analytical to a fault. So my advice is at times trust your instinct. Not without analysis, but don't discount your instinct too much. Trust yourself.


What question do you never get asked that you wish you were asked more often? I guess the question looking back on my career is why did you start investing or why did you start in the oil and gas industry? Yeah, why did you.


Well, let's quite intrigued with the global elements of the oil industry. It was always kind of amazing to me how stuff can move around the world so, so quickly and seamlessly with massive infrastructure all over the place. So hopefully we'll be able to create a clean energy infrastructure like that globally and dismantle oil and gas infrastructure. It can be done. It can be done.


Well, then that's it. That's all we have for today. Any any final thoughts? Anything to plug?


I would only say that I hope your listeners, especially ones coming from the tech world, really take a look and educate themselves on what's happening in the clean energy community, because I think there's opportunities for everyone in this space. And we're constantly looking to work with the strategic partners, whether they come from the tech world, enterprise software world, there's a lot of opportunity. So energy is an open ecosystem and we need for really, really smart people to come and do it.




Well, that's it. That's all we got for today. Thanks again for for joining. And we'll talk soon.


Great, thanks. And really enjoyed it. Take care. It visionaries is created by the team at Mission Dog and brought to you by the Salesforce Customer 360 platform, the number one cloud platform for digital transformation of every experience, build connected experience, empower every employee, and deliver continuous innovation with the customer at the center of everything you do. Learn more at Salesforce.com platform.