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Thanks so much for tuning in to the special episode of the murder squad. Today, we're partnering with Emmy Award winning series The Alienist Angel of Darkness on TNT to cover a case that delves into what it was like for detectives in the series to solve murders in New York City at the turn of the 20th century. The tools and knowledge detectives have today might be easy to take for granted, but tracking a killer then was something entirely different in this episode. We'll give you a taste of what that was like and then you can go check more by watching the aliased Angel of Darkness gripping story.


The second season of The Alienist is out now with new episodes airing Sundays at nine eight Central on TNT. Visit the Alienist Dotcom for more information and opportunities to engage. On the murder squad, we discuss details of crimes that are often violent in nature. Listener discretion is advised.


I'm Billy Jensen.


I'm Paul Hols. This is the murder squad. Most people know the story of Jack the Ripper, even if they don't know the specifics of the cases, it can be argued that the case created this entire genre and it also created many conspiracy theories. The case from London made international headlines and American Hubris thought their Scotland Yard counterparts foolish for not having caught the maniac. But what would have happened if that same maniac across the pond in 1891, New York, that city very well might have experienced some of Jack the Ripper's wicked ways.


This is the murder squad.


So, hey, Billy, what are you up to? Well, you know what, I'm dusting off the top hat and the suspenders because this is a special episode because we're going back to eighteen nineties New York City and you're not going to be able to use all of those fancy techniques that you use today to solve this one.


I'm going to be handicapped. Yes.


So we're going way back in the vault of unsolved crimes this week, inspired by the work of TNT's The Alienist.


This is a case that draws implications from White Chapel into the bustling underbelly of New York City. Much of what the show illustrates for its audience now, by eighteen ninety one, New York City was filled with immigrants from all over Europe, Italy, Poland, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Hungary. So much so that the city and nation passed immigration law that allowed the government to begin denying people entry, often using health as a reason. But it still didn't slow the influx of people.


The rapidly changing social dynamics were met with the boom of industrialization. Craftsmen jobs were replaced by factory jobs, and the breakdown of the master apprentice relationship is often pointed to by pointing scholars for the rise of crime. People also sought out ways to fill their desires. Sex was readily sold to those who could afford it. Most of those employed worked in southern Manhattan near the docks.


And that is exactly where this case takes us.


Carrie Brown was known around the neighborhood by the nickname Shakespeare, the 50 something sex worker told anyone that would listen that she was from a good family in England and was quite the actress in her younger years. Carrie would quote Hamlet, Macbeth and Merchant of Venice, sometimes for fun and other times for vices like gin. On Thursday, April, twenty third, eighteen ninety one, Carrie had dinner with her friend Alice Sullivan at a Christian mission before separating for the night's work.


According to Alice, she last saw Carrie around eight thirty pm with a man she knew only as Frenchie. Carrie was also seen with a different man that evening. His name was Isaac Piringer and he was also known as Frenchie.


Yeah, there are a lot of Frenchy's apparently in New York at the time. If you had a French accent and you had a bunch of friends, they were going to call you Frenchy. That was just the default nickname is the default nickname if you were stuck with it. Just a confusing zero.


Yes. Sometime in between the clients, Carrie had a beer with a friend, Mary Healey, at the East River Hotel.


The East River Hotel was, according to the New York Commercial Advertiser, a disreputable dive, the worst in the city and the house of drinks. Kerry carried a red calico bag with a handkerchief and two pairs of glasses.


She was dressed in blue gingham. After the beer, the two went out into the rainy night to find more work.


So around 11 o'clock that night, Carrie rang the bell to enter the hotel. When the housekeeper, Mary Minter, opened the door, Carey had a third and final client with her. Mary Minter described the man as, quote, about thirty two years old, five foot eight slim build with a long, sharp nose, a heavy mustache of light color, and he wore an old black derby hat, the crown of which was much dented. The two checked in under the name C.


Nikolo and Wife. They retired to the room with a candle and a pail of beer.


It is believed this mystery client left the room and locked the door around 2:00 a.m. on April 24th, 1891, around 9:00 a.m., the housekeeper of the East River Hotel on Katherine Slip and Waterstreet sent a young man to clear out the rooms for the day. It was his daily job to prep for the next day's business. When he opened the door to room thirty one, he discovered Carrie's body. It was the gruesomeness of the crime that caught the headlines and true crime enthusiasts attention.


Even now, Carrie was nude on top of the bed. Her clothes were in a mess right above her shoulders, Carrie's head laid in the center of a pillow with her body on the edge of the bed, her feet pointed toward the door of the room. The bedding was pushed against the wall and blood was on everything, the bedding, the floor and the victim. Carrie's left leg was crossed above the right. Her entrails, which had been removed, were under her legs.


Her right arm was tucked under her with the hand, looking as if it was trying to clutch something. And under her right thigh was the likely murder weapon.


A table knife. The knife was used extensively on Kerry's body and the coroner, a guy named Schultz, noted that one cut started at the end of the spine and went toward the abdomen and then back to its starting point. There was no sign of the skin that had been removed there look to be a patch of skin that was removed, but there was no sign of that skin in the room. And there was also the disembowelment mentioned earlier. But this killer also took this scene a step further because he signed his handiwork, he sliced a ragged foot long cross on the back of her left hip, and that was a mark he also drew on the door and wall so as not to be missed.


According to the coroner, Carrie's cause of death beyond all the extensive damage done to her body. Was strangulation and there are conflicting reports as to which manner of strangulation, some sources report it was by hand, others by the clothes that were found around her shoulders and neck.


Now, Paul, we've gotten access to some of the not crime scene photos, but crime scene illustrations or other photos. Actually, these are just two photos of Carrie's body. It appears that they were taken at the morgue. And it's amazing to me that these photos even exist.


But online, they're attributed to the New York City municipal archives.


All right, let's break down before we get into those photos, let's break down this scene first. We've got a sex worker. This is her place of business. She has brought in what seemed to be a final client for the night.


We have a time period between 2:00 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. and we have a brutal, brutal murder.


Taking a look at those pictures. Anything stand out to you?


Well, I think in terms of the injuries to his body, in looking at the first image, which is an image of the front of her body, basically from her neck down to her upper thighs, it is showing initially what I would attribute as part of a sequence along her left, starting from the lower abdomen, just inside her left hip, a linear abrasion probably caused by a knife that extends down the front of her thigh, almost down to the knee.


But it does not cut into the skin. It is not an incised wound then starting at the exact spot on the right side of her abdomen, just inside her right hip, you see an identical looking linear abrasion that roughly three inches after that abrasion starts, that's when an incised wound can be seen. And now there is an open, gaping wound that extends down the upper right groin area into her genital area. So it appears that the offender is doing these parallel marks, one that he does that he does not.


Penetrate the skin and then another one, he starts and then goes down into the tissue.


The second photo is a photo of Kerry's rear end, and it is showing presumably the pathologist had or an investigators hand that is spreading her left buttocks away from the right buttocks and is showing an open wound where her rectum or her anal opening would be.


It appears that the incisive wound that was seen on the front of her extend it down encircled the genital area, including the anus.


And there was multiple starting points for incisive injuries around the anal were the anal opening would be, and it does appear on the front of her that that's where that patch of skin was removed.


This is the opening that the offender would have had to remove her intestines, her bowels through.


He is not opening up her abdomen. She does not have any mutilation to her breasts that I can see. And admittedly, these are very, very poor photos and I enhance them and Photoshop. But you have an offender that is focusing his incisive injuries to the genital and anal area and then removing internal organs out through that opening. What I don't know is does he also remove the vaginal cavity?


Does it remove an ovary or uterus, which sometimes these types of offenders will do in the picture where I can see the that the hand spreading the left part of her buttocks just above the hand, right on that left buttocks, is this X or cross-shaped? That is two linear abrasions that appear to be identical in terms of the width, the type of instrument used, presumably the knife that created the linear abrasions on the front of her. So he is carving what appears to be a symbol.


There is no functional aspect to this mark on the back of her. Yeah.


So I'm taking a look. Every detective is would have known about Jack the Ripper at this time, you know, so they're seeing this. And Jack the Ripper in the canonical Jack the Ripper, there are five victims, the first four were all murdered outside, the fifth was murdered inside. And I just want to add, that was also the one with the most extensive injuries. That was Mary Kelly.


I want to I want to refer you to what the Dr. Thomas Bond, who examined the body, this is how he described it in the to describe the crime scene and then the postmortem. The body was lying naked in the middle of the bed, the shoulders flat. But the axis of the body inclined to the left side of the bed head was turned on the left cheek. Left arm was close to the body with the forearm flexed at the right angle and lying across the abdomen.


Legs were wide apart, left thigh at right angles to the trunk and the right, forming an obtuse angle with the pubis.


The whole of the surface of the abdomen and thighs was removed and the abdominal cavity emptied of its viscera. The breasts were cut off, the arms mutilated by several jagged wounds and the face haak. Beyond recognition of the features, the tissues of the neck were severed all round down the bone. The viscera were found in various parts of the uterus and kidneys with one breast under the head, the other breast by the right foot, the liver between the feet, the intestines by the right side, and the spleen by the left side of the bed of the body.


The flaps removed from the abdomen and thighs were on a table. The bed clothing at the right corner was saturated with blood, and on the floor beneath was a pool of blood covering about two square feet.


The face was gashed in all directions, the nose, cheeks, eyebrows and ears being partly removed, the lips were blanched and cut by several incisions running obliquely down to the chin. There were also numerous cuts extending irregularly across all the features. Now there's obviously a lot more damage being done to Mary Kelly, but this was on everyone's mind. I mean, think about this. Whenever we talk about true crime and we see a manner of of death or an M.O., oh, that's exactly how Bundy did.


That's exactly how Berkowitz did that. That seems a little bit like Rader. Think about that. That's in everybody's head. That one guy is Jack the Ripper. Boom, we've got a disembowelment. But there's obviously there's a lot of differences between those two scenes.


Yeah, there's there's considerable differences in terms of the extent and type of mutilation occurring and Jack the Ripper case versus what we see here in Carrie Brown.


And I think it's important to point out just what you said is that Jack the Ripper was in everybody's mind, not just law enforcement, but also people, citizens out there.


And when I start thinking about Carrie Brown and taking a look at, let's say, these linear abrasions on the front of her, in many ways I start wondering, is this an offender with that long linear abrasion down the left side where he doesn't cut in? Is that a hesitation, Mark?


Everybody is familiar with suicides where, you know, when somebody is wanting to cut in to themselves, oftentimes they will do trial cuts. And you see these hesitation marks as they try to get up the nerve to cut in.


Do we have an offender? And Carrie Brown, who may be inspired by Jack the Ripper, is now thinking, OK, I want to cut into her, but he doesn't quite have the courage to do it initially.


And then finally, on that second cut, on the right hand side, that second linear abrasion, he's able to finally get the courage up to go in.


And now he's going in and starting to do the mutilation where you have the incisive wounds. Just something that I'm wondering about. As I take a look at Carrie Brown's mutilation versus the extensive mutilation by Jack the Ripper, I would expect if Jack the Ripper was responsible for Carrie Brown, we would see at this point in his homicidal career more extensive mutilation.


But it's for further discussion. Yeah, because, you know, and there's also a lot of talk about that Jack the Ripper didn't even commit all five of those that are considered the canonical like one person didn't commit all five of those. But it's often thought that because Mary Kelly was inside, he was able to do more and he was able to take his time.


And certainly he had this particular assailant had a lot of time in a private room in order to inflict the damage that he would want to do. And it was a lot less damage than we saw with Mary Kelly. Right. And then the this this X or cross symbol that is on her her left buttocks area. But it's also present.


What was it on the headboard and the door in the room?


Mm hmm. So that that is very interesting that he's now kind of marking his territory. And again, isn't there something that parallels Jack the Ripper with that type of marking? I'm not sure I have some vague recollection that Jack the Ripper did something, but I can't remember.


You know, it's funny because in the same way that I said that, you know, people automatically think of Jack the Ripper, if we were if this was nineteen seventy one Los Angeles and and they saw another murder where somebody had drawn something in blood on a wall, they would go, that's like the tape murders.


That's like the Lubyanka murders.


Even though they didn't they didn't link them that the two back then, as we've talked about in terms of the linkage blindness, but the canvassing the scene outside the room, they found drops of blood leading down part of the stairs that stopped and then led to the roof. Hmm, based on a description by the night clerk at the neighboring hotel, the Glenmore, it's believed that the man climbed to their roof, then went downstairs and ordered a room the night Clarke's description matched Mary Minter's to a T.


. Remember what Mary said about thirty two years old, five foot eight slim build with a long, sharp nose, a heavy mustache of light color. This is the man that was last seen with Carrie. Except now, though, the man was covered in blood and the night clerk said he had a German accent. This guy tried to get a room, then admitted he didn't have money, so he was sent away. So he's covered in blood, doesn't have money.


Do you call the police? Well, I'm wondering, in ninety one, was there a phone system in place? I mean, are we at a point in which there is at least a rudimentary system to be able to call the police? Or do you have to hail down a passing police officer or go to the nearest substation to alert police? You know, I could see where there really wasn't a mechanism to get police to rapidly respond.


Is this sort of something that didn't everybody have a whistle, you know, and then everybody was just sort of blow the whistle and then the police would come? That may be where you got you've got police just walking around on foot or on horseback and they hear a whistle and they head towards the whistle.


Yeah, well, so Police Chief Inspector Thomas F. Burns had been extremely critical of Scotland Yard in the years prior for them not having caught Jack the Ripper. He told the London paper, The Sun, I should have gone right to work at a commonsense way and not believed in mere theories. With the great power of the London police, I should have manufactured victims for the murderer. I would have taken 50 females of White Chapel and covered the ground with them.


Even if one fell victim, I should get the murderer. Wow. Men ununiformed, which I guess means planes closed, should be scattered over the district so nothing could escape them. The crimes are all the same class and I would have determined the class to which the murderer belonged. But what's the good of talking? The murderer would have been caught long ago. Now, this is.


This is. The police chief inspector saying in New York, looking at London and saying, I would have caught this guy and I would have put 50 females out on the street, and if one of them got murdered, that would have been fine because I would have eventually caught the murderer just using using using these women as bait.


Yeah, there's a lot of hubris there.


And now he's got a case that's very similar to what was going on over there in London.


So local news dubbed Careys murder as potentially being committed by Jack the Ripper.


So Burns is on the hot seat now. He puts his best inspectors on it and immediately they learn of these Frenchy's maybe for entry number one for engine number two.


But as we talked about, this was a popular nickname in the area, so the police rounded up all the Frenchy's within a day and relied on their shaky witness descriptions of who frenching number one and French number two were, and they ultimately only held frenching No. One. His real name was Amir Ben Ali. He was Algerian and spoke French, hence the nickname.


Ali was in the East River Hotel the night Carrie Brown was murdered and he was actually staying across the hall from her in room thirty three.


So according to police, there was blood on Ali's door and the doorknob, both inside and out. But there were reporters swarming the area and remember, this is a time when there's no police tape, reporters would be right next to the the detectives. They would have a full access. But the reporters don't remember seeing any blood. Nobody saw this blood. But the detectives later said that there was blood. We're going to get back to that. So just remember that because this blood evidence is what the prosecution held their case on against Ali.


The state's expert said, quote, Together made microscopic stereoscopic and chemical examination of the blood spots on the mattress upon which the murdered woman lay the spots on the bed tick in the room, which Frenchy slept and the spots upon his clothing. He found traces of intestinal matter in all but six of the pieces upon which there was blood in the scrapings of Frenchy's fingernails, traces of the same matter were discovered.


Now, Paul. We're not dealing with DNA. We're not even. Are we even dealing with blood type at the time? No, no. You know, it wasn't until the very early nineteen hundreds that they started really pursuing and figuring out the ABO blood types. And it wasn't being used forensically in criminal matters for later than that.


At this point, what they're trying to do is, is using these these qualitative tests to determine if blood is present.


And so they would do something like the fact it was a test that I did this Teichmann Crystal test, which you take a little bit of the blood and do a chemical reaction and look at that chemical reaction under a microscope and a certain shaped crystals formed, you would form the opinion, this is blood.


And at the time they thought it was a confirmation of blood. But we now know it's not. You know, there is nothing that they were doing back in the day that could individualize the blood back to a person.


So it's very easy that that there was even if they did find the blood, remember the reporters that hadn't seen the blood on Franklin French's room, but it was just a matter of they would just take blood and potentially just move it over to who they wanted to pin it on. If I'm not not saying that they were trying to close this case, but.


That could have happened and there is no checks and balances for that because there's no testing blood, his blood is blood, right?


Right. And in fact, you know, with the dried blood, they couldn't even determine if it was human or not.


The world we're exploring in this episode and the one in the Alienist Angel of Darkness are a lot of like at the turn of the 20th century, New York had an underworld cloaked in corruption, crime and chaos. And one grisly murder had the power to shake the Empire City to its core. Every week you could follow the dark and sinister trail of death and deceit as an intrepid team of crime solvers reunite to hunt an elusive killer. If you've checked out the episodes that are out and you still can't get enough of the alienist, there's a brand new digital interrogation experience that brings you deeper into the criminal world that Sarah Howard investigates and allows you to interact with her detective agency.


On Facebook Messenger, you can answer a series of questions that will lead you to discover what real New York City criminals of the late eighteen hundreds, you would have been from notorious brutal murderers to unknown brothel madams trying to make a living during the turn of the century. You can find out more about real life criminals who stalked New York's underworld.


The second season of the Emmy Award winning series is out now, and new episodes air Sundays at nine eight central on TNT and head to the Alienist Dotcom to check out the digital interrogation experience today. So what would constitute intestinal matter, like, what do you think he's talking about out there? You know, I would say that's looking at the cellular level. So they had microscopes back in the day. So they would take a sample, look at it under the microscope.


And there's different types of cells, these mesenchymal cells that are present an intestinal matter versus some other tissues. And this is what doctors and in particular forensic pathologists are very, very well trained at. They do these histological exams even to this day, looking at tissue samples, and they're very good at identifying the type of tissue. However, I would question the skill set of somebody back in eighteen ninety one working in this capacity. And also remember, back in the day, what was being frequently eaten was animal intestines.


It was used commonly and a lot of the meat stuffs and you cannot throw a microscopic exam, really determine the difference between animal mesenchymal versus human mesenchymal tissue.


OK, so to get back to the scene, we have the murder scene in room thirty one.


We have right across the hall someone who seemed to have been with the victim prior. That's what witnesses said. He's in room thirty three, the police say there's blood on his door and also on on the underside of the door, too, but. We also have this. Sighting of a man showing up at the hotel next door covered in blood. Matching the exact description that the that the clerk gave right in Florence also, I'm sorry, but it's also possible that this guy that was covered in blood, he could have used his hand to steady himself on Frenchy's door and left his blood there, potentially the blood of of carries.


They're right.


And I believe that witness statement is, is that that man comes down the stairs part way, stops and goes back up. He's seeing that there's a witness that is going to see him leave covered in blood. That's why I'm interpreting that. That's why he ends up going to the roof and going over to the other hotel.


So a lot of this blood that is outside of Carrie's room and potentially on the door of French's room could have been deposited during the action of this strange man, possibly, very likely the killer.


So they arrest Ali for the murder of Carrie round and they put him on trial. Even the defense cross-examination of the state's expert showed that they couldn't even determine the source of blood that was present outside of Frenchy's door. There's no way to say for sure was even human.


But despite that admission by that expert, a jury found Frenchie or Ali guilty of second degree murder on July 3rd. Eighteen ninety one.


And you can see that this is. Swift justice. Very fast justice was, and I'm using the term justice in quotes here, because we're going to get into this. But, you know, this is a matter of just months, weeks, really. Well, yeah, because she's her body's found April 24th and they have somebody being found guilty on July 3rd, so that's a couple of months so that we don't see that in this day and age.


But many in the area didn't believe Alwi was guilty. The biggest supporters were to journalist Jacob Reise and Charles Edward Russell Rees. And Russell convinced Governor O'Dell that the blood evidence was tampered with. They never specified whether it was intentionally done so or not. Both were backed by other journalists when telling O'Dell that the blood presented at trial wasn't present at the time of the crime.


In nineteen 02, Odel released all from SingSing and declared him innocent of Kerry Brown's murder.


So here we have the police chief who kind of put his neck out there when he was ridiculing London police about their incompetence in solving Jack the Ripper. And then his agency ends up catching a similar crime.


And so now he's he's under pressure and they find an easy suspect, Ali Frenchy, who's staying in the room right across where Carrie Brown was mutilated. Yeah.


And he's going to be able to say, I caught our ripper. Great. You know, they did it.


So but we had some journalists take up the cause, which is going that which is happening more and more, you know, especially in present day now.


But. If Ali wasn't guilty, who killed Carrie Brown? And yes, we had this theory. Which is pretty popular that Jack the Ripper came over, so let's compare this, so the biggest difference between Carrie and the other victims of Jack the Ripper is obviously the location. Carrie was killed in New York City, the United States of America. Jack the Ripper victims were in White Chapel in London, England.


Those murders happened in London between August 31st, 1888 and November 9th. Eighty eight. And the victims were Mary Maria Nichols, Andy Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Catherine Eddowes and Mary Jane Kelly. Carrie was similar to these victims in the fact that at the time they were all thought to be sex workers. But recent scholarship, and especially if you read that excellent book, the five, has shown that perhaps maybe only two of the canonical five Jack victims were, in fact, sex workers.


But according to statements from back then, they. All like to imbibe, they all like to drink, and they all were poor. Including carry the strangulation method and the gruesomeness were similar, but as we said, Mary Janes was was way over the top compared to Carrie's and those were the most similar locations. And also in London, the difference between those five victims and with Carrie Brown is that strangulation was the only wasn't the only damage to the victim's necks.


Their throats were also slashed.


And another crucial difference was there was never a murder weapon left behind at London crime scenes, Carrie was a minimum 10 years older than his other victims. And I say minimum because her age is uncertain. Some reports say she was fifty six. Others say she was in her 60s. Also, none of the London victims had a cross or xining their bodies.


But the London Jack the Ripper and the American killer of Gary Brown did have one other thing in common. Both reached out in London. Jack sent the police half a human kidney and topped notes.


One reading, Dear boss, I keep on hearing the police have caught me, but they won't fix me just yet. I have laughed when they look so clever and talk about being on the right track. That joke about leather apron gave me real fits. I am down on whores and I ain't quit ripping them till I do get buckled. Grand work. The last job was I gave the lady no time to squeal. How can they catch me now?


I love my work and want to start again. You will soon hear of me with my funny little games. I say some of the proper read stuff in a ginger beer bottle over the last job to write with and it went thick like glue and I can't use it. Red ink is good enough, I hope. Ha ha. The next job I do, I shall clip the lady's ears off and send to the police officers just for Jolly. Why don't you keep this letter back till I do a bit more work then give it out straight.


My nice, so nice and sharp. I want to get to work right away if I get a chance. Good luck. Yours truly.


Jack the Ripper in America note was sent to the New York Evening World in December of eighteen ninety two. The note gave no indication of Carrie's murder, but being that rumors had swirled of his involvement, some considered it to be from our killer. This note read.


Sir, I write to you to inform the people of this country of my arrival from Europe. My motive of me coming here is to kill fifty here, then go to Boston and kill the same. I will first start and Bleecker Street, so let the police be ready. Years Jack the Ripper.


And another thing to remember is we're talking about.


The 90s, this is going to sound silly, this is before the Internet, this is before Twitter and Facebook and Instagram, these notes very well could have been trolls because we didn't get the Internet, didn't invent trolls.


Trolls were around. They just didn't have as easy a time to to show off their illness. That's very well what this could have been.


Right. And with something so high profile and you see this in almost all high profile cases, you have other people have no involvement in the case who just want attention.


They want to insert themselves for some reason or another, whether it's just feel good that they actually got the attention in this major high profile case or some of them try to become copycats and they try to replicate the crimes in order to get the attention over onto them.


So this letter is taunting 50 murders in New York and 50 murders in in Boston after that, there was no evidence that that ever happened.


But the newspapers at the time did have a tendency to dub crimes against women as Jack the Ripper offenders, an issue that was discussed in 1890, one by 20th Century magazine. It mentioned Carrie's murder as the New York murder, but then offers explanation of the term Jack the Ripper saying, quote, So that the name Jack the Ripper stands for a person who kills a woman or women and afterward mutilates the body or bodies. So in essence, they were using the term Jack the Ripper.


As the term for a slasher serial killer or a mutilating serial killer before it existed, we see this now. We've taken off the jack the and but we'd use Ripper, most notably with the Hollywood Ripper case.


Right. And so it's something that has persisted for well over one hundred years.


Yeah, but that doesn't mean that there weren't suspects in New York at the time who could have fit the bill for both the Whitechapel murders and for Carrie's murder. The first being a man named George Chapman. Now, he was from Poland and moved to England in 1887, working as a barber. In ninety one, he moved to New Jersey by 1890 to he had moved back to London. The only other item besides locations that tie Chapman to the murders is a statement he allegedly made once back in London, he poisoned three different wives when he was arrested by Scotland Yard.


In three, he remarked, You've got Jack the Ripper. At last, he was hanged for the murder of his three wives.


And I think, you know. With this guy saying, you've got Jack the Ripper, I think potentially, yeah, it could be this guy, but. We're also substituting Jack the Ripper as the most notorious criminal, so what he's saying is he could have been saying something like, you finally got Al Capone, you finally got Dillinger, that kind of thing. Right. He's proud of what he's done.




And he's also or even if he was when he was arrested and he was trying to tell them that they had got the wrong guy, he was trying to sort of make them seem silly and saying, yeah, you finally got me. I'm Jack the Ripper.


You got me. They know that he poisoned some of his victims.


What's the likelihood that somebody would go from poisoning to mutilation or strangulation or just the complete gruesomeness of the cases of Carrie and Mary Jane, Kelly and all the other victims?


You know, as I kind of just assess those circumstances, the victimology is the primary difference that really stands out. You know, Chapman is poisoning his wives, right? He has a known personal relationship with them. And so I'd want to know the circumstances of how is he trying to kill them with the poison? Was he trying to make it look like they died an accidental death, were it not? And so the investigation will not come back on him.


So I would not eliminate the possibility of somebody like Jack the Ripper killing in a different mode because he's dealing with a different victimology that puts him at greater risk.


However, if we are talking about a situation where now we have an offender who is doing what Jack the Ripper is doing and then moving into a poisoning realm, that really is unusual because Jack the Ripper is doing this mutilation because that is what his inner desires are. That is what he wants to continue to do. I don't see an offender like that moving to something so extremely different, like poisoning. So another suspect that fits both is James Kelly Kelly.


Like Chapman killed his wife in eighteen eighty three, but he used a knife to do so. He was sent to a prison like mental institution, which he escaped from. It's unclear if he was present in White Chapel in 1888 based on his own writings, he could have been in France. But the timeline is hazy. The part that is not is his arrival to New York just weeks before Carrie's murder. Also in his diary, he wrote about his hatred of sex workers.


You know, this particular type of suspect in terms of these very vague circumstantial bits of information that people will glom onto to try to tie him to a murder.


These types of individuals crop up in these cases all the time. So I'm I'm reading this and I'm going, there's nothing here that is showing a nexus between James Kelly and Carrie Brown's murder.


Yes. Then there is Francis Tumblety. Tumblety was from North America, born in Canada, and he practiced medicine in America. He had gotten in trouble for conducting abortions and was thought to have poisoned some of his patients. He had at least two aliases, Jeff Blackburn and Frank Townsend, that allowed him to escape capture for a while. He left for Europe in eighteen seventy four.


After being held for possibly conspiring in Lincoln's assassination in London, Tumblety continued to show up on law enforcement's radar. He was arrested for the White Chapel murders but was released on bail. Once released, he fled to France and then he came back to America before the time of his murder.


Both law enforcement and the press knew of his arrival. When the police chief learned that Tumblety was living on East Tenth Street, he didn't arrest him. He told the press there was no proof of his complicity in the White Chapel murders, and the crime for which he was under bond in London was not extraditable. Those crimes were gross indecency and indecent assault with force and arms against four men. He later disappeared from New York City and wasn't located again until eighteen ninety three.


Living in Rochester, New York. He later disappeared from New York City and wasn't located again until eighteen ninety three living in Rochester, New York. The alphabet murders happened in Rochester, but he's probably too old to have committed those. Yeah, probably, yes.




But you know this man as a suspect, he was also arrested for homosexual activities in London, which was the thing at that at the time that people could be arrested for.


He supposedly hated women at one point married a sex worker. You know, he's been on the radar back and forth. And and friends actually believed he very well could be the Ripper.


Yeah, again, though, you know, at this point in time will probably never be able to get conclusive evidence.


But the circumstantial stuff that is available on this, Tumblety, just is not convincing at all.


So here's your assignment. It's been over one hundred, twenty nine years since Carrie Brown was murdered. So we encourage you, much like we did with the Black Dahlia case, to go back through old newspaper clippings. This isn't something that you're going to be able to Google is going to be something where you really have to go in and very much use the microfiche way of doing things.


While there were plenty of murders at the time, there don't seem to be many with the hallmarks of Carrie's case unless you turn your attention to England, which is possible, although we're unsure how likely. Although some other victims names pop up in conjunction, none had the grotesque mutilation that marked those in Whitechapel and Carrie Brown. But just like with Black Dahlia, we want you to send us your theories. Jack the Ripper, whether in America or England, was never caught.


And I think it's when when you take a look at the Jack the Ripper cases and then Carrie Brown, it it is something that is important to note that this type of mutilation is not unique, though it is unusual, but there will be other offenders not related to these crimes that are committing this type of mutilation.


But what standing out in Carrie Brown as potentially a signature is that that X or cross mark that the offender did at least three times once on Carrie's body and twice within the crime scene, there's something significant about that to him. And if he had committed another murder, I would think that he might. Draw that same symbol somehow, some way either on the victim's body or within the crime scene again. Yeah, OK, so now we get to our weekly distraction.


What are you being distracted by on this special episode?


Well, actually, the I think the inspiration for the special episode is, is my distraction. I hadn't heard of the show The Alienist, and then it was brought to my attention and we got talking about it. And so I started watching some of these episodes. And it is just so well done.


And the the investigative process that they employ back in the 90s to solve their case in season one. It's something that I am thoroughly enjoying at this point. Yeah, they you know, it was funny. So we were sending each other videos back and forth. And I was really getting into a lot of the behind the scenes things for the show because I that's one of the especially with period pieces. I really like that.


And I had read The Alienist as it was a book by Caleb Carr.


And in fact. The alienist is in my book because we go to me and my wife went to Delmonico's, which is where they go in the alienist, and we had this you know, there were two things that were created at this restaurant, Delmonico's in New York, and it was lobster thermidor, which I didn't have, and baked Alaska, which I did have. And it was such an interesting like next summer in New York, we're going we're going to go.


And but the reason why it's in the book is because it was the night before you caught D'Angela before Danja was arrested. So that's where I was the night before D'Angela was arrested.


OK, that's cool. Yeah. So but the you know, I saw how. We were trading emails back and forth and showing each other videos and behind the scenes things from the alienist and you you had sent a video saying that, wow, these three characters are like us.


And you sent that yesterday. What did you mean by that?


Well, you know, here you've got the the alienists, the guy that's kind of digging into these, you know, these crimes using the psychology. He's deducing what's going on.


You've got the kind of reporter type guy that's out of New York who's very tall.


You know, Dailiness is rather short. And Luke Evans, who plays the reporter, is is rather tall.


And then the detective played by Dakota, Dakota, you know, you're seeing her, you know, just riding on the typewriter and having that Spitfire personality.


And that reminded me so much of Polly. And I was just like, well, there's the three of us right there.


I'll take it. Yeah. You did also say, too, because the video that you had said that was about the fashion and there's a day. That's right. And it was about how how they wanted Kreitzer, who's the willingness to even though he's young, they wanted him to look kind of older. So he's dressed, dresses older.


But the the reporter who you likened to me dresses like a dandy, which I appreciate, but said that he liked good beer, good theater.


That's right. He said he liked drinking a lot.


It just it it works. It absolutely works. It did. It works. You know, another thing that I was looking at and the rabbit hole that I went down is that I wanted to see how they how they filmed it because it is so rich. And they went to I was they went to New York just to get inspiration for the sets. But then they built this entire set in Budapest and that's where they film it.


And, you know, I love one of the things I love about living in Los Angeles and when I worked at Warner Brothers, was just walking through the Warner Brothers backlot and just walking through all of those sets. And it just looked so cool that they created this entire eighteen nineties New York. And I implore everyone to watch this show so we can get a season three so me and Paul can get a guest shot on the Alienist. I'm throwing that down there.


A little cameo appearance. Yeah, exactly. Sounds good to me.


Yeah. Yes. Well, everyone, thank you so much for listening to this very special episode as we went back to 90s New York. Be sure to watch The Alienist on Sunday nights on TNT. Subscribe to us. Leave us a review. Follow us on Social at Jen-Hsun and Holes or at the murder squad. Pick up some merch and until next week, keep digging. Don't be an irony. Jensen and holds the murder squad is produced by Exactly Right Media and Bench Clearing Productions senior producer Paul Kotowski, engineer Steven Rae Morris, music Tom Bribable executive producers.


Karen Kilgariff, Georgia. Howard Stark. Danielle Cramer.


If you're intrigued learning about the case of Carrie Brown, check out the incredible case Sara Howard and team explore in the second season of The Alienist Angel of Darkness. The first couple episodes are available to Benge now and new episodes air Sundays at nine eight, Central only on TNT.