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[00:00:01]

This is exactly right. On the murder squad, we discuss details of crimes that are often violent in nature. Listener discretion is advised.

[00:00:18]

I'm Billy Jensen. I'm Paul Hols. This is the murder squad. In the early 1990s, a monster was prowling Charlotte, North Carolina. His targets were young, attractive black women, and his victims barely made the news until he went on a 48 hour killing spree.

[00:00:45]

Nine victims that we know of would come face to face with a rapist and murderer known as the Taco Bell Strangler. All of these victims were in his circle of friends and co-workers. He only confessed to those he knew he could be tied to. Which begs the question, how many other victims does he have?

[00:01:04]

Our job to find the unknown victims of the Taco Bell Strangler. This is the murder squad.

[00:01:19]

All right, Billy, so what are you up to now, we just got a huge update, really, this is a very good day for the crime community. Last season, we brought you the case of Alice. Attorney Alissa went missing after her stepfather pulled her out of school in two thousand one in the Phoenix area. Her stepfather reported her as a runaway and there wasn't much done for several years. In two thousand eight, suspicion began to swirl around Alice's stepfather.

[00:01:50]

And it caught traction when Elyssa sister Sarah began fighting for justice and Sarah was going on podcast's, she was on Gen Y. She was on, I think, missing more. Mary covered it. She was on crime junkie and she was on our show. And she also started her own podcast as well. I remember talking to her about it. She was going to start her own. And her fight saw the first gigantic step towards justice this past week, because on Thursday, August 20th, Michael Terni, Alice's stepfather, was arrested and charged with second degree murder and he was indictment of backed by a grand jury.

[00:02:32]

We're going to be monitoring the case while it progresses. But this is one of those things where a family member got loud and pushed that that energy and that emotion into into trying to meet with people, going on as many podcasts as she can go on starting your own podcast. And it was absolutely the the the the dedication that Sara gave that made this all happen.

[00:03:02]

If Sarah doesn't push this thing, this doesn't happen.

[00:03:06]

And Sarah is young. Right? She has in her early 20s, if I remember. Right. Yeah. So I think it's just it shows everyone we always talk to people. What can I do? What can I do? And it's just it's get loud, get louder as much as you can get your thoughts together. Sarah also was incredibly organized too. But, you know, she really she made this happen. So Sarah was incredibly happy for you.

[00:03:32]

We know it's just a first step, but but bravo.

[00:03:36]

Awesome, awesome job. I also want to tell everybody about one thing that we have coming up on Wednesday, September 9th, if you go on stitcher premium. You're going to be able to get all 10 episodes of what we're calling our foul distractions, and these are 10 episodes that we've done with our favorite crime podcasters where we're talking about some of their favorite cases. We've got a lot of special guests. It's a lot of fun. It's a little bit more lighthearted.

[00:04:05]

And they are all dropping all at once on Wednesday, September 9th, only on Stitcher premium. So I just want to let everybody know about that.

[00:04:14]

Yeah. And I've actually had a ton of fun talking to these guys. I haven't listened to these podcasts, of course, but got up to speed on on these different personalities like Albert and Fran from a for affirmative murderer.

[00:04:26]

And, you know, the scam goddess, Lacy Mosley, she was awesome. So it's it's been a lot of fun, just kind of riffing with them and then them telling us they're their favorite cases or some cases that they've covered.

[00:04:38]

Yeah. And also you'll be introduced to other podcasts. Not only we talk to podcast that you might not have heard of, we find out what podcast they are listening to. So we're kind of creating a pyramid scheme, if you will, of podcast.

[00:04:51]

But now let's go to Charlotte, North Carolina, for this case.

[00:04:56]

All right. You got it.

[00:04:57]

So in June of nineteen ninety two twenty one year old Caroline Love was living with her roommate Sady in Charlotte on Central Avenue.

[00:05:06]

The two often hung out with Sadie's boyfriend, Henry. Carolynn was a native of the area. It had been working at the nearby Bojangles for over two years. On June 15th, Caroline went to work at the Bojangles on Central Avenue. She asked her manager if she could buy corridors to do laundry. After her shift ended, the manager agreed and Caroline began her walk home. On her walk home, she ran into her cousin, Robert. He offered to drive her home.

[00:05:33]

Her cousin watched her enter the apartment, but after she entered her home, she seemed to disappear. Just a few days after her boss called her sister, Kathy, to try and find Caroline, she had been to work in two days. Kathy tried to call her sister, but got no answer. So she went to the apartment again. No answer. Kathy left a note the next day when the phone rang. It wasn't Caroline. It was Caroline's boss again.

[00:06:01]

She'd missed another shift, this time after Kathy failed to get a hold of Caroline.

[00:06:06]

She called Henry Sadie's boyfriend. The two knew each other mutually. She asked if he could put her in touch to find safety, and he did. None of them had seen Caroline.

[00:06:17]

So the three friends went to the police station to file a missing persons report. Later, when Kathy and investigators went into the apartment, Kathy noticed that some of her sister's furniture had been moved and specifically her sheets weren't on the bed.

[00:06:30]

The investigator noted there was no sign of the quarters Caroline had gotten from work the last night she was seen and there is no sign of Caroline or she might have gone. So we're looking at this right now. The sheets are missing, not that alarming because she was planning on doing laundry. No real reason to suspect foul play at this point, other than the fact that we can't find her.

[00:06:57]

No, you know, she's missing work. I think that's probably the most concerning aspect. I'm kind of curious about the furniture that's out of that that had been moved. Is it just something that looks like it's been slid a little bit or does it look like a struggle had ensued inside that place?

[00:07:12]

Yeah. So initially, right, when you go to the apartment and not there, you're not seeing foul play. But day goes on day after day, day after day. Still no sign. Eight months go by and there's no sign of Carolin love. But another woman didn't show up where she was supposed to be as well, 20 year old Shawna Hauk was studying to be a paralegal at Central Piedmont Community College. She was known by family and friends as a purple princess because of her favorite color.

[00:07:42]

She lived with her mother and worked at the Taco Bell on Sharon Amitay Road. In January of nineteen ninety three, someone broke into the home Shauna was babysitting at the parents, called the police and filed a report. Nothing came of it. We just wanted to throw that in there. But then on February 19th, nineteen ninety three, Shauna's mother arrived home and began to cook dinner. When she got to the house, Jonah's car wasn't there, which wasn't really alarming at first.

[00:08:08]

But while she was cooking dinner, she noticed Shauna's purse and shown his coat, and Shauna never went anywhere without her purse, and it's been shown in the coat earlier in that day. It was a cold day. The highs were only forty one degrees.

[00:08:21]

Lows were into the 20s. So she was concerned Dean reached out to Shauna's boyfriend, Darrel, Darryl said he hadn't seen Shauna. She began to go through Shauna's purse to see if there was anything telling her where her daughter was and she noticed something that was actually missing. It was her keys. It's also some money missing two. By this time, Sean, his boyfriend, Darryl, arrived at the home to help de search and also to be a shoulder to lean on and the to call the police.

[00:08:49]

And they filed a missing persons report here.

[00:08:52]

We've got a second missing woman, but we're also in a town the size of Charlotte.

[00:08:58]

That's not a small town. So this is the type of thing that comes in on a fairly frequent basis. So at this point, I don't think there's any reason to suspect, at least from law enforcement perspective, that there possibly could be a link between the two cases. Yep. So after calling the police, Darryl began to look through the rest of the house for any sign or clue of Shauna. He looked into each room upstairs and downstairs. Then he made it to the downstairs bathroom.

[00:09:24]

The shower curtain was outside the bathtub. He pulled the curtain back inside with Shawn, his body curled up and submerged under water. He yelled for Dee and called nine one one.

[00:09:38]

Dr. Sullivan, a forensic pathologist and medical examiner of Mecklenburg County medical examiner's office, conducted an autopsy the next day. There was a contusion on the left side of her scalp above her ear, a laceration on her left eardrum with hemorrhaging. It was a clear sign of blunt force trauma before her death, but not the cause of her death, Sullivan noted.

[00:10:02]

There was hemorrhaging around her eyes, her face, the lining of her mouth and the muscles in the front of her voice box. All evidence that led Dr. Sullivan to believe the cause of death was due to ligature strangulation, which he defined the ligature as an instrument, a cord or a band or something that's made into a corridor band that circles the neck and is used to forcibly compress the neck. OK, so. What are we looking at here? What can you tell?

[00:10:33]

So far, we've got you know, initially he's looking at this this contusion, but then when you have ligature strangulation like this, what is actually happening to to the face? Well, you know, when when ligature strangulation occurs, the heart is pumping blood up through the arteries, the carotid arteries up into the brain, and then the all that blood ends up flowing out of the brain, down through the jugulars.

[00:11:06]

Initially, when the neck is starting to be compressed, the jugulars are shut off. But the pressure from the heart is still pushing blood up into the brain. But that blood can escape back down through those jugular veins. So pressure builds up. And this is where the tiny blood vessels in the eyes will start to burst. You can even get blood vessels inside the oral cavity bursting.

[00:11:29]

And then ultimately, as the strangulation process continues, even though the lungs and the heart can end up showing evidence of the strangulation process. So the body is it's it's this highly tuned instrument and that instrument under the strangulation process is now being disrupted. And it basically works against itself. And this is ultimately going to lead to where now with the lack of oxygen going up into the brain because you can't get the blood flowing up there, that's that's ultimately how somebody loses consciousness and then ultimately dies from lack of oxygen to the brain.

[00:12:15]

OK. So now we have a missing woman, we have a murdered woman, and four months later, the area would see another crime take place. Twenty four year old Audrey Spain was living in Charlotte and working at a Taco Bell in June of ninety three.

[00:12:31]

But on June, twenty third order didn't show up for her shift, then it was not like her to miss work. It was so out of the ordinary that her manager, Mark, actually drove by her apartment that night and her car was parked there, so we tried calling her. There was no answer. He left a message on a machine. And waited till the next morning, he drove by again to check on her. Her car was still in the lot and again, she didn't answer the phone.

[00:12:57]

So Mark called Audry sister. And that evening, Audrey was supposed to pick up another shift again. She didn't show. Mark still hadn't heard from her sister, so he decided to call nine one one officers wrote to the apartment, but no one answered when they knocked. But then on June, twenty fifth maintenance workers needed to enter Audrie's apartment and they actually entered through the sliding glass door and into the front door, which is odd, but so once inside.

[00:13:28]

They walked into the bedroom of Audra's and what they found was Audrey's body on the bed. And a ligature had been made from a T-shirt shirt and a bra. Part of the t shirt was stuffed inside Audrey's mouth. There were also small abrasions on her back face and knee above her right hip was a small contusion and there was evidence of sexual assault. So, Paul. We're seeing this now, this is this would be the second murder and it is a ligature strangulation, but first we're looking at a ligature that was made from the victim's own clothes.

[00:14:12]

What can you pull from that?

[00:14:13]

Well, you know, that just tells me that the offender did not come to that location with something to use as a ligature.

[00:14:24]

Now, I have many cases that I've worked in which the offenders have used the victim's own clothing articles or other items from within the house. So this is something that is fairly typical. Now, does it indicate that the offender didn't plan to kill? I don't think so. Some of these guys know that they can get in to any residence and they can find a murder weapon, a ligature, a source of a ligature in any residence then. So that's just part of the process.

[00:14:53]

If they're wandering around and let's say they get fired by a patrol officer, the last thing they want is something that looks like it's going to be like pretty tied shoelaces, something that it looks kind of ominous. And so they don't carry that kind of item on their person just to avoid that type of situation.

[00:15:16]

So just over a month after Audrey's murder, another woman would die.

[00:15:21]

Twenty one year old Valencia jumper was in her final year at Johnson C. Smith, studying political science. She worked at the food line on Central Avenue near the Bojangles where Caroline Love worked. And she also worked at Hecks in South Park Mall on August 9th.

[00:15:38]

She made plans to get together with her friend Zach afterwork. Zach arrived after midnight to Valencia's place.

[00:15:45]

He could see smoke billowing out of the apartment. He tried to get into the apartment to locate Valencia. When he turned the knob to her door, it was unlocked.

[00:15:54]

But when he tried to make his way into the apartment, he was met by a curtain of smoke and couldn't get inside. He woke one of the neighbors to call the fire department. Firefighters entered the scene once in the kitchen. Firefighter Dennis Aarne saw a burner left on the stove. There was a pot of beans on the burner as firefighters made their way through the apartment. They discovered Valencia's body in her bedroom. Her body was charred from the fire.

[00:16:20]

According to the fire investigators. The pot is what started the fire, and it was accidental. Dr. Sullivan examined Valencias body during the autopsy. There is no sign of soot in her airway, but the state of charring on her remains made the cause of death.

[00:16:37]

Tricky to discern. At the time, Sullivan concluded the cause of death to be thermal burns, even with no sign of smoke inhalation.

[00:16:47]

Yeah, so this is a little bit of a problem as when somebody has succumbed in a a fire and they're still alive as that fire is burning and there's smoke in the air they're inhaling.

[00:17:04]

The smoke and that soot ends up being pulled in to the airway and so at autopsy, that's one of the the diagnostics as to whether the person was alive or dead before the fire started or before the person was exposed to the smoke.

[00:17:23]

And so in this particular case, if if Valencias Airways don't have evidence of inhaling the smoke, that possibly indicates that she was likely dead before that fire was started. Right.

[00:17:40]

OK, now, as we're looking at it, we've got three murders right now. Law enforcement, would you be linking any of these cases yet? You know, they're there in a discreet geographic region within Charlotte as well as they're they're occurring within fairly close timeframes.

[00:18:04]

So I know from my perspective. You know, if this is now a cluster that is occurring that is outside the norm or the jurisdiction, I'm working it, then I've got to consider the possibility that they're linked. However, there's enough potential differences between the cases where you go. I don't know. This just may be one of those weird aberrations where we have multiple offenders committing crimes that are close together on time. And that's part of the issue.

[00:18:34]

When you when you're only dealing with two or three cases and you don't have maybe forensic evidence to link that, it's very easy to overlook the possibility that you have maybe a series that has started. Yeah, but I think.

[00:18:49]

Within a month, a month later, they have to think that there's a link because another woman would turn up dead. 20 year old Michelle Stinson was a mother of two boys and they lived in an apartment in the Charlotte area. She was attending college classes and also worked at the local Taco Bell. On September 15th, Michelle's friend James stopped by to visit. He knocked on the door. No one answered, but he could hear noises inside. The two young boys were knocking on the window and they told James their mother was asleep on the kitchen floor.

[00:19:22]

James thought the kids were playing a joke or a game, and he tried knocking again. But Michelle still didn't come to the door, so we turned to leave. But one of Michelle's sons came out of the back door and grabbed him. When James came into the apartment, he saw his friend Michelle on the kitchen floor in a pool of blood, he picked up the phone to call nine one one, but quickly realized the court had been cut.

[00:19:43]

He took the children to the neighbors and then called the police. Michelle had been stabbed four times and the left side of her back and two of the wounds had caused injuries to her heart and lungs. Around her neck were bands that indicated strangulation, along with contusions on the front of her neck or cause of death, that was due to stab wounds with strangulation as a contributing factor. So now we have multiple women strangled in a small area. This one, yes, has a stabbing, but you got to say that the dots need to be connected at this point, you have to at least consider that possibility.

[00:20:21]

And, you know, many people, when they start thinking about a serial offender, think a serial offender kind of his crimes will look like cookie cutter type of of crime.

[00:20:32]

Every single crime will be identical. But in my experience, I've seen where offenders will do different things at in different cases, sometimes dramatically different things. But in this particular case and the series that we've seen so far, you know, strangulation seems to be the primary motive that this offender is wanting to inflict death on these victims. But in this last one, he's now using a knife. Now, the question is, is why is he resorting to using a knife?

[00:21:02]

Don't know. Only the offender knows why he's doing that. We didn't see anything that follow this pattern until February of nineteen ninety four when the killer or killers reappeared. And this time the offender seemed to be on a rampage at the time. Twenty five year old Vanessa Mack was working at Carolinas Medical Center and raising her two daughters, a seven year old and a four month old. She was also close with her sister, who worked at a local Taco Bell in the Charlotte area.

[00:21:30]

So on Sunday, February 20th, Barbara Rippey went to Vanessa's apartment to pick up Vanessa's youngest daughter, it was their routine. Barbara arrived at six a.m. and she went to the back door. It was ajar being cautious before going inside. She called out for Vanessa. The call was met with silence, so Barbara then went inside and the first person she saw was Vanessa's four month old daughter and she was lying on the couch, which was an unusual thing for Vanessa to allow.

[00:22:00]

Barbara made our way through the home, and when she reached Vanessa's room, she saw her feet hanging over the bed and she described what she saw as the feet. She said they were gray and cold. It was the only visible part of Vanessa. She called nine one one. She quickly grabbed the baby and waited outside for law enforcement and the Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Department arrived on the scene. On Vanessa's body, there was a towel combined with a long sleeve shirt wrapped around her neck.

[00:22:32]

There was blood coming from her nose, ears and the back of her head. She had been strangled next to her. Her purse and its contents were strewn on the bed. And so we have another ligature strangulation of the. Victim's own clothes. This has got to this is the time when you start task force, isn't this the time when you when you throw everything at this? Yeah.

[00:22:58]

You know, at this point, most certainly law enforcement can't get into that situation towards that denying that the potentially have a predator in their area. You know, it's sometimes politicians weigh in because if there's a fear that goes through the community, there could be a loss of business. Tourists aren't coming in. There may be something that makes them look bad. But when you start to see this number of cases with what appears to be an aspect, something that this offender is consistently doing case to case to case and using the victim's own clothing as ligatures, you have to look at it as this is this is a series.

[00:23:41]

Yeah, well, I have a question on that, too, because this is also the second one where there are young children in the home and he's entering the home, killing the young mother and leaving these children to fend for themselves. And I'm guessing I know if wants their victim to be found quickly. So he's also putting the young children in danger, too, like does that is that him amping up or is that him just not caring about the surroundings, you know?

[00:24:09]

Well, it's so hard to say in terms of, you know, in this case where you have the how old was this child?

[00:24:18]

Four months that was in the house for four months. You know, was was it was the four month old asleep at the time? The offender is just thinking, I got in, I did what I needed to do. And the four month old is still asleep when he left. You know, he's he's basically has accomplished what he wants to do. I think it becomes much more interesting when the offender starts interacting with with these children.

[00:24:42]

So within a few weeks of Vanessa's murder, we would get another victim in this time. With ties directly to the first case that we discussed, twenty four year old Betty Susie Balkam was the assistant manager at the Bojangles on Central Avenue and she had only lived in Charlotte area for less than a year. She moved there with her three year old adopted daughter, and they lived at the Lake Apartments on March 9th. Susie didn't show up for her shift. Her manager called her, got no response, and he also called co-workers and called her mother.

[00:25:14]

But no one had heard from her. And while her manager, family and co-workers were concerned about Susan's whereabouts, another family was experiencing their worst nightmare in the same apartment complex, eight year old Brandy Henderson lived with her boyfriend for Lamar Woods and a 10 month old son. Brandy had left the apartment to go to a doctor's appointment and her boyfriend was taking care of their son and a friend stopped by. The friend stayed just a few moments and told Woods he was leaving town.

[00:25:42]

Now, the afternoon was normal after Henderson got home from her appointment, Woods left for work around five p.m. and got home around midnight. The home he returned to wasn't the same one as the one he had left. The door was unlocked. The living room was a disaster. Things were thrown everywhere and the stereo was missing. And Woods went through the apartment and he first checks on his son, he turns on the light in the room, and what he saw was every father's worst nightmare.

[00:26:11]

His son was gasping for air. There was something white coming out of his mouth and a pair of shorts were wrapped around his neck. He ran to help his son. He removed the shorts around his neck and then he saw brandy. Brandy was lying face down on the bed. Woods rolled her over, there were towels tied around her neck, her face was blue. He removed the towels, he called nine one one, he performed CPR until law enforcement got there.

[00:26:40]

Brandy didn't make it, Brandy died, but their son was sent to the hospital. Again, we're seeing another instance of this killer. You know, not caring about a child being there and actually this time. Taking a limit, trying to eliminate the child. Now think about this, you know, a 10 month old child is not a witness. There is no way a 10 month old is able to convey anything about what he saw. And yet this this offender is leaving this child.

[00:27:23]

He left that residence. Thinking that child was dead or was going to die as a result of the strangulation, so he is doing this not to protect himself.

[00:27:38]

He is doing this to take that little boy's life.

[00:27:42]

This is showing a at a level of callousness.

[00:27:48]

This I have a horrific case. I reviewed.

[00:27:52]

I saw it was a solved case when I reviewed it, but it was an infant in its crib that had been stabbed over 20 times and both parents had been killed. And why would the offender do that?

[00:28:04]

It is showing just that psychopathic. Violence that is just not understandable to do that to that age of a child. Today's episode is sponsored by a new documentary podcast called Smoke Screen Fake Priest from Neon Hum Media Smokescreen.

[00:28:34]

A Fake Priest is an investigative show about Ryan Scott, also known as Randall Stocks, Ryan Gallinger and seven other names.

[00:28:42]

He was a popular priest who spent the last 30 years traveling the Midwest, swindling millions of dollars out of people, using the money to enrich himself and declare bankruptcy whenever outed for falsifying his identity. Father Ryan is a con man accused of several crimes, including fiduciary fraud, elder abuse and more.

[00:29:01]

Only once did law enforcement officially charge him with crimes related to his church, but he managed to essentially win the case. He's now free and working on his next con. Host Alex Schoeman, a news reporter from the Midwest, has been chasing Father Ryan's story for years. The craziest part is that Alex also gets an exclusive sit down interview with Ryan himself, and in it he reveals a shocking secret.

[00:29:25]

Subscribe and follow fake priest. Now to find out the shocking secret to listen to the show, just search for Smokescreen, Fake Priest and Apple podcast stitcher and wherever you listen. So, Paul, there's a new podcast I want to tell you about, and it's something that I'm incredibly interested in because it is a classic true crime story and it's also a classic kind of cautionary tale about a journalist and a killer. So. So it's about the Jeffrey MacDonald case.

[00:30:00]

You know, that case.

[00:30:02]

You know, I actually know about it a little bit. You know, I've never really dug it into it really deep. Yeah. So it was it was the famous Green Beret murder. Ex Green Beret doctor Jeffrey MacDonald was convicted of killing his pregnant wife and two daughters. But that's, you know, so he he's convicted and he befriends this writer named Joe McGinniss and he agrees to write a book about it, to tell the truth about what happened.

[00:30:27]

The book is called Fatal Vision becomes a TV miniseries. That's right. While he's doing Fatal Vision, McDow, McGinniss is like, you know what? I think this guy might have done it. So they become they become sort of enemies. And you wonder, did Joe McGinniss only pretend to be Jeff's friend to keep him talking, that kind of thing? So it's perfect for a podcast. And the creator of Crime Town and The Jinx guy named Marc Smerling, he's created a show called Morally Indefensible.

[00:30:58]

And it's all about this, not only about the murders, but also about this relationship between this journalist and this possible potential killer.

[00:31:09]

Yeah, so morally indefensible. I mean, it must go through the layers of the story, you know, because this is so complicated. You know, you've got this murder, you've got the friendship, there's a betrayal. There's multiple trials, if I remember.

[00:31:21]

Right. Yeah. And then, you know, I remember reading like a magazine article. So, you know, the publicity on this case was pretty sensational. Yeah. Yeah, it was. You know, it was a pregnant wife and two daughters and he blamed hippies. That was the big thing because and everybody thought that he got the idea from the Manson murders that had just, you know, in Manson was still on trial. You know, this was in the early 70s.

[00:31:43]

So they thought he got that idea. He had this weird thing about, you know, and there's a lot of a lot of of sort of forensic stuff to dig into on it. And it really is a fascinating case. I'm super excited about it. It's called Morally Indefensible by Marc Smerling, the creator of Crime Town and The Jinx. And you can get on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Bridger Winoker, you may know that I host a podcast called I Said No Gifts, and if you don't know that, that's fine.

[00:32:17]

Learning is a lifelong journey. But now that we're all on the same page, I want to invite you to listen to I said no gifts. Every Thursday. I have a guest on the show with one rule, no gifts. And every week my guest flagrantly disrespects my request. Fortunately, I'm a very gracious host and I never fly into a fit of rage. Rather, we discuss whatever my guest brings me. I've had all kinds of terrific guests, people like Emma Thompson.

[00:32:48]

I have a slight obsession with vacuum cleaners. I have a lot of vacuum cleaners and actually I'm literally looking at one now that vacuums this floor and basically takes if you vacuum yourself with it, it would just take your skin off. Yes. Or Lester, basketball shorts, go to mowing the gates because there's just no world in which basketball shorts have come across her like life in the past twenty five years. It is impossible. It's impossible. I like, hey, you know, wear these while you're, like, handing out the malaria vaccines.

[00:33:31]

Andy Richter, you at your most relaxed. It's not it's not pretty. Oh, speak for yourself. I just want to stay gorgeous. Right. Like a reclining alabaster statue.

[00:33:47]

Karen Kilgariff, is that another Patrick Wilson horror movie? Yeah, I think he's like in two different series. Right. He's all over the map of his choices, love's demons. He wants to fight them.

[00:33:59]

He wants to be the father around them. Father of a demon.

[00:34:02]

Lauren Lapidus. Zachary Tyler.

[00:34:05]

Yeah. Zachary Ty Bryant. Yeah. Is now the proud owner of a BYU or the entire chain or something.

[00:34:12]

He started sobbing. OK, well, you can say a lot of things on a podcast. They become true. But he is not the CEO of Buffalo. Find out and more.

[00:34:22]

If you want to know what all these wonderful people have given me, you have to listen to I said no gifts. Thursdays on exactly right. Subscribe now on Stitcher, Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. I don't care where you listen. That's none of my business.

[00:34:38]

I said no girls. Your presence is presence in. Law enforcement was still putting together the pieces of Brandy's murder while friends and family were still searching for Susie that morning of March 10th. Susie didn't show up for the next shift.

[00:35:02]

She was scheduled for her manager, became even more concerned after making another round of calls. The manager and another co-worker drove to her apartment. They knocked on the door and looked in the windows. There was no answer and everything looked normal inside, even with everything appearing normal. The manager and Susie's mom called the police to file a missing persons report. An hour after that call, police contacted Susie's manager at the Bojangles. They had been dispatched to an apartment where a woman wasn't breathing.

[00:35:32]

Maintenance had entered the apartment. Inside, they discovered Susie on her bed. A towel, partnered with a small sheet or pillow case was wrapped around her neck. She also had abrasions on her left shoulder, right up her chest, abdomen and right forehead. Even with these other injuries, her cause of death was strangulation. Items from her apartment were missing, but the biggest one was her car.

[00:35:55]

So at this point, law enforcement puts out a bulletin regarding the safety of women in the Charlotte area. They finally believe they have a serial killer on their hands. But the serial killer wasn't done on March 12th, Lovey Slaughter went by her daughter, Debra's apartment. She wasn't alarmed when Deborah didn't answer. She was supposed to be at work, but when she put the key in the door, she realized the door was already unlocked. Right. When she entered Deborah's apartment, she saw her daughter lying on the floor in a pool of blood.

[00:36:23]

She called nine one one. When law enforcement arrived, they noted that Deborah's purse and the items inside were thrown everywhere. Deborah was lying face up on the floor. A white balled up sock was stuck in her mouth and two towels had been tied around her neck. She'd also been stabbed thirty eight times in her chest and abdomen and the cause of death with stab wounds, with strangulation as a factor.

[00:36:47]

You know, in this case, obviously, we're seeing the same pattern in terms of the victim's own clothing items or items from the residence, such as the towels are being used for the strangulation. But you're seeing a an escalation with the stabbing. Thirty eight times she was stabbed.

[00:37:07]

And in some ways, I'm I'm looking at that and not being able to see the distribution of the stab wounds. It's it's very speculative.

[00:37:15]

But the number of stab wounds is in that range to where now you're seeing somebody who is in this anger retaliatory mode. You know, sometimes this is now he's taken his inner emotions out. It's not it could be fantasy where he's enjoying the stabbing, but it also could be driven by something is happening in his personal life. And he wants to take that anger out by utilizing the stabbing process as an expression of his anger. How are police going to catch this guy down?

[00:37:49]

Well, you know, he's he's interacting intimately with these victims. So from a forensic perspective, there is a chance that you are having forensic evidence left behind, whether it be a DNA, hair evidence, fiber evidence, trace. He's interacting with the apartment. He's going through purses.

[00:38:07]

Is there the possibility that there's latents in there? But then he's also in somewhat of a discreet area.

[00:38:15]

And now you're getting into a mode. You have a series going on with an active predator.

[00:38:20]

You're going into a proactive patrol mode. You're using crime analysis to try to predict areas where he might hit the types of victims that he might be targeting. You're educating the community, you know, in order to try to protect themselves.

[00:38:36]

So law enforcement needs to step into a very proactive mode to catch this guy, as well as to try to keep the community safe before investigators even discovered Soozie or Devers murders. They've already connected Vanessa and Brandi's homicides. The killings were just too similar during their interviews with family and friends of the victims, a list of known associates were started and a name appeared on both. Then, the day before Deborah's murder, law enforcement located Susie's car inside the car.

[00:39:07]

The offender had left a palm print. Luckily, he was in the system. It came back to a man by the name of twenty eight year old Henry Lewis Wallace. He had a larceny charge in the system with an outstanding warrant, a charge that saw him arrested 16 days before Vanessa Mack's murder. But he was quickly released that day. Law enforcement began their search for Wallace. And we've heard the name Henry before. Henry was Caroline Love's roommate's boyfriend.

[00:39:38]

He helped file her missing persons report. He was located by law enforcement on March 12th, nineteen ninety four before six o'clock in the evening.

[00:39:47]

By the time they started questioning Wallace that night, their evidence was starting to pile up, including photos of him trying to use the Nessa's ATM card.

[00:39:57]

So Wallace then began to confess. And we're going to give another warning because some of the details here are pretty gruesome. But the reason why we're telling you them is because we feel that he probably does have other victims that are out there. So we need to tell you what was going on at these crime scenes. The first victim we discussed was Caroline Love. Wallace said he made a copy of his girlfriend's house key to let himself in the apartment and he pretended to use the bathroom.

[00:40:26]

When Caroline came home, he gave her a kiss on the cheek. Carolyn wasn't happy about it. She told him, as long as you didn't do it again, she wouldn't tell his girlfriend. Then he puts her in a chokehold and Caroline fought back. She scratched his arm. She scratched his face, but he held on until she passed out. He then took her into the bedroom. He removed her clothes. He tied her hands behind her back with a curling iron cord and put tape over her mouth.

[00:40:54]

He then claimed to rape her orally and vaginally while she was semiconscious and while raping her, he continued the choke hold until she became limp. He said that he could still feel her pulse. So then he strangled her enough to cause her death. He wrapped her body in that bed sheet and placed it in an orange trash bag.

[00:41:14]

Then he took some of her clothes to make it look like she had left, like she had just gone away. He drove around Charlotte for a little while deciding where to dump the body. And ultimately he went down Statesville Road and he dumped the body and the evidence in the woods. But he was fearing that the orange trash bag might be seen. So the next day he drives back out there, he moves the body to a shallow ravine, removes it from the trash bag.

[00:41:41]

So while he was giving this confession, he tells law enforcement where to find Caroline's body and then when it came to confessing to Shauna's murder, he was again someone in her orbit of people. He was her manager at the Taco Bell where she worked at. Wallace had stopped by our house, according to him, she gave him a hug after the hug. He said he wanted to have sex with her. He forced her to perform oral sex. He then raped her, telling law enforcement she was afraid and crying the whole time.

[00:42:10]

He then put her clothes on her and took her to the bathroom. There he put her in a chokehold until she passed out. He filled the bathtub and placed her in it. Then he stole fifty dollars.

[00:42:21]

His confessions continued. He knew Awdry Spain through work as well, but it was at a different store. And according to Wallace, he was at our house to smoke pot and he had only planned to rob her. He put her in a chokehold and demanded the combination for the safe at work, and she said she didn't know it. So he said he wanted her personal accounts, but she said she was broke because she had just taken a vacation.

[00:42:46]

Wallace claimed that he didn't remember asking her to take off her clothes, but did remember Audrey begging not to be hurt. He choked her until she passed out. Then he sexually assaulted her. He took her to the bathroom to take a shower. And then he placed her in bed and tied the t shirt ligature around her neck. He again stole items, he stole our car keys and her credit card, and he used that car to purchase gas and he actually came back to the home the next day to make a phone call to try and throw off the time of death.

[00:43:20]

Now, this is the second time that he's talking about. Seemingly washing evidence off this off the victim, so he's he's making these steps in order to and he's also double he's he's thinking back on this and this is really in his head and he's going back to the scenes.

[00:43:41]

What's going on in this guy's head? Well, you know, as as we discuss these details, you know, and it's very obvious here, you've got this this mid level offender in terms of sophistication. He's aware generally of evidence. He's placing a body in a bathtub, however. And after he commits the crime, he's he's continuing to think about it going, oh, no, you know, I need to do something more to prevent myself from being caught.

[00:44:17]

But at the same time, he is killing women that can be associated with him. So this is where you see this this kind of this this mixed level of sophistication. He knows enough. And can act out to try to cover up his actions, but the forethought that he's putting into these crimes is just not at a level in which I would characterize him as a very intelligent or sophisticated type of offender. Yeah. So when Wallace confessed to Valencia jumper's murder, it was a little different.

[00:44:55]

He claimed she was like a little sister to him and that they often spent time with one another. He said he'd stop by and they talked. He returned later and asked her to call his girlfriend Sadie, because they'd had a fight. When she reached for the phone, he put her in a choke hold and he told her to go to the bedroom. And Valencia begged him not to hurt her and offered to do whatever he wanted.

[00:45:18]

He raped her orally and sexually assaulted her vaginally while she was putting on her clothes. He then strangled her with a towel. Then Wallace noticed a bottle of rum and he poured it on the body, on the bed and on the floor of the bedroom. He then went to the kitchen and put a can of beans in a pot and turned on the stove. You remember this story? He took the batteries out of the smoke detectors. He went back to the bedroom, lit a match and threw it on our body.

[00:45:47]

He returned 20 minutes later to make sure the apartment was on fire and he had also taken some jewelry from Valencia and pawned them. So, again, this is another another thing that he's doing now. He's adding fire to the repertoire. Right.

[00:46:00]

And this goes to what we discussed earlier. I mean, there was no evidence of smoke inhalation inside the airways in her lungs. And here in his confession, he's saying she was dead before he ever started the fire. You know, this is it really supports the forensic evidence. In the case of Michelle Stinson, Wallace admitted he went to her apartment with the intention of raping and murdering her. She gave him a hug after he stopped by. He then told her he wanted to have sex with her.

[00:46:29]

Michelle tried to say she was sick, but he didn't believe her or care. Yeah. So according to Wallace, which I call bullshit, she agreed to have sex with him. He told her to perform oral sex, to which she replied she didn't know how. And he said, well, you're about to learn. And after sexually assaulting her on the kitchen floor, he puts her in a chokehold. Then he strangled her with a towel. But Michelle still fought to hold on.

[00:46:55]

And when she was gasping for air, he stabbed her four times again, he took measures to avoid detection.

[00:47:02]

He used a washcloth to wipe down a glass, the door, the foam wall and the floor. And before he left, Michel's oldest son had woken up and he told him to go back to bed. He exited our home through the back door using a towel so as not to leave prints. And then he threw the knife and a washcloth over a nearby fence.

[00:47:24]

Oh, wow. So we just deposited that evidence right nearby. And this is another victim that he knew.

[00:47:29]

Yeah. So Wallace was also friends with Vanessa Mack while he was in her neighborhood.

[00:47:36]

He called to see if she was home. When she answered, he hung up. Then he went to her apartment. He planned to kill and robbers so he could support his cocaine addiction. And this was the first time he mentioned his addiction, but not the last. He tried to hug her so he could get in close for the chokehold, but she refused. So we asked for a drink with her back turned. He pulled out a pillowcase and put it around her neck.

[00:47:59]

He took her to the bedroom and demanded all her money, the ATM card, etc., he then sexually assaulted her. He told her to put her clothes back on. Then he strangled her with the pillowcase. He checked on her baby and stayed until she was asleep. He left and called a cab. When he tried to use her ATM card, he realized she'd given him the wrong number.

[00:48:20]

And again, he's leaving such a trail that would point back at him. He is not a master plan or of crimes he has. This is almost impulsive.

[00:48:30]

Yeah, but he still it's impulsive. Then he he knows enough to wipe down fingerprints, but then he's doing things like just tossing the night over a fence nearby, you know, and or using the victim's ATM card.

[00:48:44]

Using the victim's ATM card.

[00:48:46]

Yeah. Now, Susie worked at the same Bojangles that Caroline Love had, and Wallace used the ruse of needing to use her phone to get inside her apartment. They talked then as he was leaving, he put her in a chokehold. He asked for the alarm code and combination of the safe at her store. Susie was upset and took about 30 minutes to give him this information. And according to Wallace, Susie asked, Why did you just do that to me?

[00:49:11]

And his response, I'm a sick person who was hurt. Many people. Susie then hugged him and forgave him and told him that he needed help, and Wallace said this made him fly into a rage. He grabbed her by the throat and slammed her to the floor. He took her to the bedroom and he demanded oral sex. And Susie actually pulled and scratched at his penis and she bit his shoulder while they were fighting. Wallace then tightened Attallah around her neck until she was nearly unconscious.

[00:49:44]

Then he sexually assaulted her. He told her to put her clothes back on and he asked for her money. She gave it and took a gold necklace from her neck. Then he strangled her. He then stole her TV and her car. He said he sold the TV for drugs. He came back to the apartment to make sure she was dead after then he stole her VCR and cleaned up after himself again. He wiped down the phone. He wipe down the doorknobs, the wall, and he kept her car for two days and only ditched it because he thought law enforcement was following him and he wiped down most of the car except for the trunk lid.

[00:50:22]

And when confessing to Brandi Henderson's murder, he said he planned to do it earlier in the day, but her boyfriend was home. So he left and killed Susie before returning. He pretended he needed to leave something for Brandy's boyfriend as his excuse for dropping by. They talked and then he asked for a drink. While Brandy was getting him something. He choked her and told her to go to the bedroom. She begged him to let her hold her son.

[00:50:49]

Wallace told her. I don't know if that would be a good idea for we're about to do. He then demanded money.

[00:50:56]

She gave him a Pringles can that had twenty dollars worth of coins because it was all that was in the house. He told her to remove her clothes, which she did. She then grabbed her son and laid him across her chest. She turned his head, Wallace and sexually assaulted her. He told her to put her clothes back on. He wiped everything down with a towel. He folded the towel and put it around Brandy's neck and strangled her. He put her in the bed and tied the knot in the towel.

[00:51:23]

The baby started to cry. Wallace gave him a pacifier, but it didn't soothe him. When he couldn't soothe the child, he then strangled him and laid him next to his mother. He then stole the stereo and television that he sold for drugs.

[00:51:38]

We're also seeing a pattern here. With this. One of the most awful guys we've ever talked about where he's he's almost telling the people that that this is just going to be a sexual assault, in his words, and let's the the the victims guard down a little bit and then strangles them.

[00:52:06]

It's not even I mean, what is going on in his head now? Is the strangulation part of the fantasy or is it also a is it more part of him trying to get away and then killing this the killing the little kid just because the baby, you know, he consumed the kid, so he strangled him?

[00:52:30]

You know, when you take a look at how he is initially controlling these victims, he's often resorting to what's being referred to as a chokehold of some some sort. And then he's manipulating them, taking him into a different location. He sexually assaulting them. And then the cause of death is strangulation.

[00:52:49]

He most certainly is an offender who is fantasizing about the idea of the strangulation as part of his attack on these victims. He even utilize the strangulation on the young child. You know, this is just part of his signature. That is the way he wants to kill.

[00:53:13]

So Brandy's son actually did live. But still, I mean, jeez.

[00:53:19]

Well, yeah, that's I mean, it's just horrific. You know, it's it's it's one of those things where he intended for the son to die, just happen to live.

[00:53:30]

So Wallace said he went to Deborah's apartment to use drugs with her. And again, he used this I to drink line. When she turned around, he put a towel and this was a towel that he brought with him. This time put a towel around her neck. She fell to her knees. And knew at that moment he was the one who had killed the two girls on the news. He told to remove her clothes and he demanded oral sex.

[00:53:54]

She said, I don't do that. You might as well go ahead and kill me. He tightened the towel and asked if she changed her mind. She had lost, then sexually assaulted her. He told her to put her clothes back on. Then he told her to empty her purse because she knew she carried a knife. He kicked it away when it hit the floor. Wallace told her to empty the wallet that she had in the purse while she was doing so, he grabbed the knife.

[00:54:20]

Deborah handed him forty dollars and hit him and screamed for the police. Wallace grabbed the towel and tightened it and then stabbed her with the knife again. He cleaned up after himself. He watched the knife clean. He wiped away his fingerprints. He put it back with the purse contents. Then he went to go buy drugs. He came back to her apartment to do the drugs and then came back a second time and took a coat, a baseball hat and a butcher knife.

[00:54:50]

Hmm. That's odd.

[00:54:53]

All of these confessions, of course, are just extremely gruesome. And quite frankly, they're hard to read and hear about.

[00:55:00]

But the details are so important. In each of them, he talks about how he's trying to avoid detection and we can see that he knew he could be linked to these victims. You know, being linked to these victims just makes them a very unsophisticated serial killer, but these are just the ones he confessed to and the investigators believe he may have other victims. Which with the months and possibly years he took off between these killings, between some of these killings, it's entirely likely that's where the murder squad comes in.

[00:55:35]

So before we get to the assignment, these confessions, what do they all have in common and what is the likelihood that he started with Caroline Love?

[00:55:46]

Oh, you know, I think, you know, the thing that really stands out to me is, is he has a relationship with these victims. And I'm unclear in some of the cases how close of a relationship he has with the victims.

[00:56:03]

You know, and that would be something that I would want to start out in terms of, you know, is this somebody who is consistently in these victims lives or is this somebody who just happened to know them in a very casual way and happened to drop by most of the victims he confessed to?

[00:56:23]

He either knew through work or he knew through his girlfriend's work or he knew their boyfriends or significant others through work. It was only maybe two degrees of separation tops.

[00:56:34]

Yeah, so so so these victims are known through an acquaintance and he's taking advantage of that sort of that somewhat separated relationship. And I don't know if in his mind he's seeking that that's enough of a separation where investigators would never see a pattern, that he's killing people that are within his kind of somewhat extended social circle, you know, but also the the M.O. that he is employing.

[00:57:07]

You know, there are some changes here and there throughout the series. However, there is consistency in terms of the type of victim that he's killing, as well as the primary cause of death. You know, and he's providing details that only the killer knows.

[00:57:24]

And those details are supported by the evidence in each case about Wallace when he's doing these confessions. The first several, he makes a point of making it sound like he's asking the victim's permission, saying, I would like to have sex with you, can you take your clothes off? And then it progresses to I would like to have you're going to do oral sex. Well, I don't know how long you're about to learn. Like, what is it?

[00:57:54]

You know, they interviewed him for 12 hours. Is it, again, just kind of like, well, I've already given up this much shit. Might as well just be as honest as possible. Or do you think he actually progressed where he was acting, pretending to ask permission to just ordering there could be an evolution there?

[00:58:16]

I think also it's it's taking a look at each victim and what his relationship to that victim was. You know, there may be he's evaluating how he could potentially most successfully accomplish an attack on these victims.

[00:58:34]

And he's assessed them and has decided, you know, this is the best approach. He's going to kind of kind of portray that he's this gentleman and is wanting to get her permission in order to proceed versus other victims. He just knows that that they have no interest in him whatsoever. And he's going to need to do the more of the ruse where he he now is doing a almost a blitz style attack. Once their guard is down, they've turned their back, et cetera.

[00:59:01]

So I would need to know more.

[00:59:05]

But also, as you pointed out, the length of the interview, I mean, he's he may just be now just trying to get through the process and, you know, is is winding down, you know, as as they do after 12 hours.

[00:59:25]

So after Wallace's arrest and before his trial, de Sumpter, who was shown Hawkes mother, spoke out, her daughter was killed by Wallace the year before law enforcement claimed to have a killer on the loose. And she felt that law enforcement didn't pay attention to young black women dying because they weren't prominent people with social economic status. They were in special and they were black. Those are her words and the. The lack of of action, you can say hindsight is 20, 20, but I'm sure everybody that was listening to this episode, as we described one after another, after another, were yelling at their cars or whatever, they're listening to us saying, how could they not say and be telling people that there's a serial killer out there sooner?

[01:00:15]

It becomes fairly apparent within maybe by that fourth case that there is something going on, and that's where law enforcement is obligated to look at that as a possibility.

[01:00:30]

And you don't necessarily lump all these cases into one investigation. You have these early cases in which you're independently investigating each one just in case. But you also start to proceed with an investigation, taking a look at the eye, taking a look that they are very possibly related to. So Delson talked about Henry Louis Wallace and he said he was charming. He had been shown his manager at the Taco Bell and betrayed her daughter's trust. He betrayed his victims friends and his family's trust as well.

[01:01:06]

He actually attended Shawna's funeral as well as Valencias and Vanessa's funerals. But the man that called Sinister would have to face the court system for at least some of his crimes, he went to trial in 96 on January 7th. Ninety seven, he was convicted on nine counts of murder and several sex assault and rape charges. He was sentenced to nine death sentences. And at his sentencing, he said, quote, None of these women, none of your daughters, mothers, sisters are family members in any way deserved what they got.

[01:01:35]

They did nothing to me that warranted their death. And this brings us to our weekly assignment. And we went through his confessions. We wanted you to know his M.O. from his own words. And it's likely that there are other sex assault victims out there. There also could be other murder victims out there. And entirely likely the M.O. was the same up until the murder part. But that being said, he could very easily have other murder victims out there.

[01:02:03]

If Caroline Love hadn't been connected to him, would he have offered up to show where the body was? I doubt it. So in nineteen ninety, he was questioned about a murder and separate sexual assault in Barnwell, South Carolina. He seemed to stick to the upper South Carolina and lower North Carolina area. Charlotte is actually a border town between the two states with a theme park that actually straddles the state line. But we also know that at some point in nineteen eighty eight, he was in Port Orchard, Washington, because he was arrested for burglary there.

[01:02:37]

So we want you to look for unsolved cases that fit his M.O. in both states and the surrounding area. So we're looking at Washington state and we're looking at South Carolina and North Carolina.

[01:02:50]

And we're all these victims in in Charlotte. Were they all black women?

[01:02:56]

They were all black women as well as the Barnwell, South Carolina woman, right?

[01:03:00]

Yes. So, again, as far as the rules go, we know that this gentleman is a killer, but we still don't want you to name names in terms of he could have killed this woman or that woman. Please send them to us. We will forward them to the authorities. Don't name names in public, as we say. Don't talk to each other and be nice. And now is the time, Paul, for the weekly distraction. What has been distracting you this week in a very a very crime filled week?

[01:03:35]

Yeah.

[01:03:35]

You know, so I'm up in Sacramento. We just finished all the victim impact statements. And the last three days have been very emotional. And quite frankly, I can't think of anything else. I've been listening to the victims.

[01:03:55]

It's one thing to read about their attacks, you know, and interact with them individually. But to watch one victim, one after another.

[01:04:06]

And what the the attacks did to them personally, if they were personally attacked or the loss of their loved ones, is just been emotionally draining.

[01:04:15]

You know, and I know we're going to talk about this, you know, after after this week. And I can go into more details about how this week has gone. But I, quite frankly, am so emotionally drained, I can't think of anything else. I'm not doing anything else. It's really just this should be, you know, in many ways a feeling of victory. And it is. But it is also just one of those very depressing things of what this one man did out here in California.

[01:04:50]

Yeah. And, you know, I've been watching the statements, you know, jumping on and off and still.

[01:05:00]

Yeah, obviously, like you were talking about one after another after another. And Paul Haines actually was tweeting something about that. I just you know, and this is really my distraction, too, because I've been in the same boat as you. Obviously not as not as intense. But there was something very interesting. And Paul Paul noticed it, and I'm going to read his tweets. Daniel just couldn't bring himself to look at the survivors.

[01:05:27]

As the hearing concluded, one of the live streams left the audio running and Daniel could be hearing could be heard saying to his attorney, I'm looking at the wall so I can see the victims. I can't look there anymore and I have to look at them. You see, that's that six spots on the wall over there. When I look at those six points on the wall, I could also see the victim with the paper she was throwing and crushing.

[01:05:50]

Remember which victim did that, by the way, which was very hard work, hard work with the paper that she was throwing and crushing.

[01:05:59]

But I can't look there any more. So it's sort of, you know, and Paul was talking about how this reaffirms his is his shallowness and emptiness, that he's not looking at the victims. And he you know, we haven't heard him. That's the most we've ever heard him say in a single sort of sentence. We've only heard him say yes, no. And to hear him say that. And the thing that he says is, I can't look I can't look at this spot anymore because I'm catching the victims in my peripheral vision.

[01:06:31]

I have to look someplace else is just such the the level of cowardice on this guy just sees no end. No, he's he is just trying to get through this, and he from what I've seen, he's flipped a switch where he's gone mentally catatonic.

[01:06:50]

And, you know, I know he's hearing the victim's words. And I've got my theories in terms of how how he feels about what he's hearing, which we'll discuss later.

[01:07:02]

But it is something to where he is in survival mode. And that's what he's trying to do, because his goal is to just get through this process and then move on to the next stage, which is prison. Yeah.

[01:07:18]

Yep. So good riddance. Thank you, everybody, for joining us. Please subscribe. Remember, we have go to Stitcher Premium. We have 10 episodes that are a lot of fun that are going to be dropping there in September, buy some merch. We've been seeing a lot of people posting pictures of them wearing the marches, which has been fantastic. So keep posting them and we'll repost them on social media. And until then, we'll see you next week.

[01:07:48]

Keep digging and don't be in irony. Jensen and holds the murder squad is produced by Exactly Right Media and Bench Clearing Productions senior producer Polly Kotowski, engineer Steven Rae Morris, music Tom Bribable executive producers. Karen Kilgariff, Georgia. Howard Stark. Danielle Cramer.