So I want to talk about weddings, I would have talked about weddings were we not in a pandemic, meaning that I've always thought that weddings are an interesting topic. They are a multi-billion dollar industry because you've just got someone who it's their most important moment of their life in their minds. And I mean, it is a very important moment. But the wedding industry is targeted to women. And I used to produce large scale events at the Emmys, the Grammys, the rock movie premiere, con air, its premiere, et cetera, like big, big seven figure million dollar events.

Twenty five years ago, I did a celebrity wedding and I think I've done one or two weddings. Nightmare, nightmare. Because unlike the corporate events, which are very important because their business, this is personal and when it's personal, people get crazy. And there's a reason that there's the terminology bridezilla because people go crazy because they obsess and they're also not used to planning events. So first, it's the training that young women should want to be prepared and they should want to get the ring, get engaged young.

Someone's going to take care of them. Families often have certain opinions about when young women should get married culturally around the world, different cultures really just think that you should be married young. So in the American culture, I feel like it's gotten a little bit older. But still, from the time that you're reading the fairy princess books, you're supposed to want your prince to come in and save you and buy you a ring. And it's supposed to be three months salary and off we go.

And I do think that in many cases, this sort of getting the ring and the dress and the fairy tale, I'm 50 years old. It still sounds good to me. Like who doesn't want to be looking pretty wearing a big princess dress?

It just seems so, so easy and so sort of carefree. And I think that the marketing of the wedding industry is detrimental to the marriage industry because 60 percent of of marriages end in divorce is the proof is in the pudding. People are focusing on the wrong things. I mean, even the shows like The Bachelor, you know, there are people from small towns around the country with different faiths, with different backgrounds that are meeting each other, are meeting this bachelor or bachelorette in this unrealistic circumstance.

OK, it's it's sex and everyone looks amazing. And you're in Greece or you're in some gorgeous place, in some gorgeous room, totally unlike the room that you're going to end up sleeping in together or unlike the room that you live in, in your own house. And everything is heightened. And having been on reality TV for so many years, everything is like seems like bigger and better and a great idea because it's sort of like producing your own life.

And when your life is produced, it just seems just like Instagram. It seems bigger and better than it actually is. So I put my hair, makeup, gowns, exotic destinations, hot people, alcohol, and the expectation of a diamond that's coming with a follow up spin off wedding show. I think it's a recipe for disaster. You know, it's good television. It's good for ratings, but it's not realistic. You know, these shows don't talk about would you ever go to therapy?

Does it matter what someone's religion is? Do they have cats and you have dogs? I've never heard them talk about cats and dogs on on the The Bachelor. And I'll tell you something, if someone is allergic to cats or doesn't like cats or doesn't like dogs, like that is going to be a problem. No one's giving away their pet, so. I think that the wedding business is multibillion dollar because it's marketing, but it's marketing a fairy tale and a fantasy, and it's not marketing therapy and fundamental differences and similarities and like mindsets.

And how are you going to workshop a problem and the true reality? Then you get to the wedding. Like specific, the wedding, the event, and you've got. Debt on the other side, you have people spending tens of thousands of dollars on so many things, getting into fights with friends over being bridesmaids and maids of honor, not wanting family members to sit together, mother in laws, the guest list, the location Bridezilla, who you made, your best man, all that kind of stuff.

Then you've got like the debt that you're going to go to just paying for it, as I mentioned. And I've witnessed a lot of girls in their 20s going broke every weekend before the pandemic, every week weekend, a destination wedding. And they've been invited. They have to go. They've got to get a bridesmaid stress. They've got to get a present. They've got to pay for the hotel. So it's a narcissistic, self-serving universe. OK, now the registry thing is also a very awkward thing to me.

It's efficient because you're saying here's how to spend money and not have it be wasted and I'm guiding you into what we actually need. But just to be the person that gives the fork and the serving spoon, like, what did you give? I gave a fork and a serving spoon. It was one hundred twenty five dollars. That was my budget. And Joe gave the soup spoon. So it's like very strange. It's very weird. It's the ultimate like we're all getting together to buy one big gift, I guess.

And it's smart, but it's strange. And then also the people could see what you spent. So then they're judge. Oh well Jane only spent ninety eight dollars are only about the one salad fork or the shrimp cocktail fork. Just so everyone knows, that whole set of bullshit that you buy sits in some cabinet and becomes something that comes with you through the years from house to house to apartment to apartment. And then you got to buy that padded like like China stuff that holds it and has like a fabric thing in between.

And I, I've used it twice. So it's like someone should get into the like pretend you're rich and important and have China rental for the day business because twice and people like I'm sort of fancy, it's just who cares. So that's that part. And then why don't we just register at Bank of America and put the money right into my checking account? Like if you're going to be like buy me this four percent deposit form with the wedding invitation and stick the deposit form.

In R.S.V.P. and just deposit money into my bank account or go old school Italian and just give me an envelope filled with cash at the wedding, you know, it's a whole Ponzi scheme, money operation that's getting run. And then we're talking about the pandemic now and people are doing it by zom. And I guess I almost respect that, because that's like you just want to be connected and get married, but then you're zooming it for I don't know.

And then I think some people are not getting married and they're using the pandemic as an excuse. It's a great punt excuse to not get married right now. People are pressuring you or if you're supposed to or the stress is getting to is just a great punt. But I know a lot of people who are waiting. But is that also not. Of the moment, to have a multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars of wedding tale thing is that like sort of, you know, not.

Of the moment, and then I think Girot also postponed their wedding because they probably don't have this big extravaganza in Italy, maybe they don't want to do it at all unless it's the level of wedding that a couple like that of that scale would would have. But then why not just have the intimate ceremony, the two of you? Isn't the point to to unite? If a tree falls and no one heard it, did it really fall? I think, yeah.

If if a marriage happens and no one really heard it, it did happen because you are now married. So isn't the point in those cases if you want to have the big elaborate thing, to have that moment for you and maybe even your family just for the unity and then have the big thing, have the big party, have the vows again, I'm just curious, like what the meaning of the wedding dynamic is now and if it's just evolved and this is all happened.

In a landscape where women want equal pay and deserve equal pay to men, there is there is gender disparity in finances in. Job availability and so should the man ask the woman, should the woman ask the man should. Should the whole thing be shifted upside down, should everything be marketed to women like you just can't have it both ways? So I think there's a lot of confusion in marriage and gender and money. What do you all think?

My guest today is Norma Kamali. She has been in the fashion industry for over 50 years and is known for designs like the sleeping bag coat and her sweat collection. She also wrote I Am Invincible, which chronicles the decades of her life. She is an expert on health and wellness in skin care and exercise. And today she shares with me what it was like to overcome the sexism of the fashion industry and getting engaged at seventy five. She is stunning and there's so much to learn from her.

I can't wait to share this conversation with you.

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If I had to. Put a stereotype on what you might be wearing. I love the fact that it's animal print and you have the sort of the Cattai and you know, I just like the whole sort of the feline look you have going not not every day.

Today is today. You're an animal today. Well, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, too. So you are an icon, which is not something that you can really say about that. Many people, people can be successful or people can be rich or famous, but being iconic is something to really celebrate and to give people who are listening. Just insight into your journey. So welcome. Thank you for inviting me. I really like the Mark Cuban interview a lot.

Oh, thank you. I thought it was really good. I liked it. Thank you.

Every time I read about someone, including someone who I'm friends with, like Mark or Andy Cohen or Chelsea Handler, I learn things about them.

So I love that part of it because I'm not a person who really prepares for things that much. I just off the cuff. But for this, I do some reading because it's fascinating to just hear about someone's journey. So I did know that you got married early and that was it was challenging and that where you were enmeshed in your business with your husband.

I was very young, but I was bringing clothes back from London in the mid 60s, which was really the very beginning of what was going on in that 60s revolution on Kings Road in London.

And then he was a student here. He was an Iranian student. And there were lots of Iranian students here at the time during the Shah. And we both were like two lost kids. My mother was menopausal and I had to get out of the house. And you didn't just leave the house and live with someone. You got married and he sort of was lost, too. So we met because we want to dance contest together. And I think that's a good enough reason to get married if you want to leave your mother's house.

So I did. That's amazing. Well, how I going to get into business to be a business woman at that age, to have that even inclination or to think that you have a fire inside to do that? Where did that come from? Because you can say it now is just an anecdotal story. But in that time, A to be a woman in business is really, really just sort of like beyond maverick status. But to have the confidence and the wherewithal to even say the word business then as a woman.

So where does that come from and how did that sort of happen? You're so right. After 10 years, when I was like twenty seven, he and I separated and by twenty nine I left. And at the time everybody knew that men were so much better at this than women. So we accepted that as fact. And he handled the money and he was clever in keeping me sort of hostage because I only had ninety eight dollars to my name because I wasn't getting a salary.

But I loved what I was doing so much I was sort of held hostage.

You may not have had any money, but you were building a brand. Exactly. But nobody knew me. I was actually and everybody knew him but they didn't know me. But he he sold the clothes. Remember, this is before the brands, before Halston, before Ralph, before this is before. And so I finally left with ninety eight dollars and I didn't know what I was going to do. And I never I didn't even think that women have a challenge being a business.

All I knew was I loved being a designer. I love being creative. And that was the kind of life I wanted to have. And so because that was such a strong motivation for me, I figured out how to become a woman in business. And I realized early on that I really liked it. I liked the business side of it, but I had no role models. You're so right. There was nobody in that time when we're talking nineteen seventy five, seventy six.

And I really had to figure out how to pay the rent, how to borrow money from people. I never told anybody that I had a problem. I was too embarrassed and humiliated. Well you have to be because if you act like you need the money then they don't think you're a real business or real brand. I've had assistants making more money than I did, and I've literally had that because I need them and I needed to pay them years ago.

But I. Can't look like I'm waiting tables while pretending I have this sort of brand, there are a lot of people who are even on TV right now who don't have any money, but there their TV, you know what I'm saying?

So it's a very interesting thing. And also, you know, Warren Buffett, if you watch his documentary, he said we're we're not utilizing 50 percent of the population, like 50 percent of the good talent pool, which is such a genius way to think about it.

But if you if you compound that Bethanie with the fact that everybody's preconceived notions, that this is a lot of years of me having to deal with man, whether it's bankers or licensed partners or whatever it is, but you first of all, women are looked at diminutive, like she's sweet. She added on that she's sweet. But then you add the designer factor to it, which means she's ditzy and like she knows about looking how to to dress. She's not a businessperson.

She's created. Look at those shoes she's wearing.

So, of course, I had my wardrobe for having a business meeting where I would distract anybody by having them talk about how I looked. And then I quickly learned to turn the conversation around. A couple of tricks, ladies, to turn the conversation around when you're with a whole bunch of men is to talk about what they're wearing first. I promise you it works. And then if someone is particularly annoying, you can talk about their hair.

Just saying, OK, I like that it's a good distracting technique. So I was reading about your sleeping bag coat, which I guess was out of that parachute material. And that was sort of your initial design or one of your original designs. And it made me think you were way ahead of the curve with the Snuggies and pajama jeans like you, which are not fashionable, but some are now should be making sort of pajama fashion while pajama fashion is alive and well.

I think we I don't know about you, but wearing shoes this past year has not been on the top of any of my lists. So basically what happens is we have a covid imprint and it's there for life. Our experience with covid is impacting every decision we make going forward, including what we wear and how we look at comfort and style, whether it's in the house or outside of the house.

But Dave, pajamas in my pajamas have been huge sellers for us and in every version of sweats and sweats that you can wear in some spots that you wear outside and how you interpret that by what you're wearing on your feet really changes fashion a lot. As you know, if you have an outfit and you wear heels with it, it has one. Look, if you wear sneakers, it's a whole other vibe. And if you wear slides, it's another vibe.

So I know I visit my shoe closet and I say, girls, I don't know if I'm ever going to have you on my feet again.

I understand the bags to their lovely artwork, but we're not going anywhere. So you're going to wear a bag to the kitchen or the bathroom and you put on the heel with the jogger and it's elevating or wedge because the jogger people like you, like Donna Karan with Urban Zen, really take it to a fashionable level. This sort of relax, relax.

Where would you say you're most known for swim and things around swim like during the whole sort, of course, of your career? What would be that? Would that be like the sort of star student?

It's it's very interesting. My we we sell NetApp to revolve matches, all of those. And the client, the core demographic for Norma Kamali today is twenty five to forty five. And so a twenty five to forty five year old means she is a very good swimwear customer. Obviously the type of clothes she wears tend to be more of a certain type than say the thirty five to fifty five or sixty five which we also have, and we have that customer base as well.

So people know me. It's really so interesting Bethany, because when you're in business over fifty years, people know me for different things at different times in their lives. And swimwear is very well known for us and for. Odd reason swimwear during covid is explosive, not just for me in the industry, it's explosive and it's because I I'm going into swim and I actually wanted to ask your advice and opinions.

Wow, OK, yes. And if you have the right price and the fit is critically important, you definitely will have a powerful business. And I'm not sure that I have the answer for you on why it's so explosive now. But it's it's a category that's not fashion and categories that are not fashion have longevity through all kinds of fashion trends or highs and lows. Few minutes staple. And it's function, not fashion. Is that what you mean? It's fashion.

It's it can be look great and design, but it's not judged in the same way that ready to wear. It's just like lingerie. It's another kind of category. It can be fashionable. It can be timeless. It can be. Yes. And that's a good that's a good response. Yes. The current is not king. Current is not key because when I launched into swim, I'm going to launch a Bethany brand. I've only started in eyewear, but I'm going to launch the swim in Bethanie.

But because I'm already in shapewear and do very well and the price point is good and it's very clean and it's subtly, subtly, so subtly and elegantly sexy but not slutty. And I know if that's even a bad word, but it's probably a slut shaming word. But I'm saying it it's not promiscuous, it's not perfect. It's just elegant. I wanted to go into swim because I really think that it's gotten to sort of. Colorful and bling down in February and beaded and I look to Norma Kamali, an heiress in my mind as brands wear and the old Donna Karan bathing suits, where it's just like clean and you're a woman and you can look like you have a good body.

You have to show every inch of yourself and your understanding what your body is. And it's got your curves and you're just, you know, you know who you are. You're comfortable. You need to show every inch of your body through this bathing suit. And so I thought of you in the vision, you know, from years ago. And I know you still have a storm in heaven. Well, not since covid. We we were strictly online now, and I'm not even sure that I want to store.

I mean, we're doing so well, actually, through e-commerce.

Our e-commerce business is on fire and we're exceeding twenty nineteen and obviously twenty twenty. So retail stores need a complete revision and concept. And I have an idea, but I need I need a little bit more time to sort of sort out how I want to reframe it. But I'm excited about not having a traditional retail store and rethinking what that experience is that people have. But e-commerce is unbeatable and connecting directly with your consumer and being available for them, which you are in.

Your personality is familiar with the people who who follow you. And that's my job to to make sure they have access to me. And then I have access to what they want and what they need and that that's everything. Right. Well, Jonathan Adler was saying the exact same thing. He's got a bunch of stores. He would have been buried and drowning had he not had e commerce platform. And for those of you at home who have your own businesses or want to start, this is the tech revolution.

There was the industrial revolution with machinery and, you know, replacing manpower, womanpower. This is the tech revolution. And people are having a lot of anxiety right now and worrying and people can't eat. And if you can pull yourself together and collect and get out of the anxiety, you have to sort of think about how to plant the seeds for them to grow for this next phase because it's not going anywhere and you're not too late to sort of get organized into space.

And even myself, you know, I'm not organized enough in the space then. And Norma was had an online store at eBay before, you know, anybody even knew anything about this stuff. So you've been sort of on the pulse, intentionally or unintentionally for a long time.

My first job out of the city was at an airline in the sixties working on a computer, a UNIVAC computer. And I learned very early what that could mean. And so I've been fearless about it because I didn't have these preconceived notions about what you needed to know. But the efficiency of technology is just it's fantastic. It can't be. And I think for the people who are listening and who are probably interested in business, that I think it's beyond planting the seeds.

Now, Bethany, you have to be doing it now. You just have to decide what you feel powerfully strong about and start doing it. And even setting up a website and doing it with other people is really helpful. Like maybe you have a friend who has tech experience and and knows about websites and can become part of a partnership or a group, sort of think on how you have a business or you you get another partner who is great at commerce and selling and and scaling businesses from sales and data that you gather through e-commerce.

So you all do it together. It's easier actually at the beginning to do it with other people because there are different things that go wrong and you can't be good at all of them. So it's good to have people who can who can back you up and then they have something to sell because that's what you have.

When you talk a lot about community, you're talking before you're talking a lot about community and whether or not someone's going to actually even be partners with these people or even just know what they don't know and have good people around them. You're saying the sum is greater than its parts? Yeah, it's very important.

Well, I'm a business person for sure, and I have a great mind for business and concepts and a good gut instinct, but for example, I'm not a contract person, I'm a concept person. I always know what something is supposed to be and what should be in and out, how it should be done. And so I want and the reason I'm mentioning that is because are you a business person, a traditional business person, or are you more creative?

I've learned that I can be both. I've learned that I actually enjoy both. And I think it's made me a better designer. I'm not a compromising designer, but I'm a more intelligent designer. I keep myself informed about business. I keep myself informed about what is happening politically, what's happening geographically to globally, to what is happening back here. And it's really important that you're informed if you're going to be in business and that you feel passionately about what it is you are creating or producing or selling or servicing.

So I actually didn't think initially that I would like business, but I really do. And I enjoy navigating through covid from last March, not having any business to zero. Nobody wanted to wanted any clothing ship. Nobody wanted anything. Nobody knew what they were going to do to figuring out how to proceed. So one one of the things that happened was we were shipping our March delivery of spring, we was shipping spring, and my factory worked really hard to get it all done so I could ship it on time.

And we had it ready to deliver to all of our accounts and they didn't want them.

And I stood behind the purchase orders that they issued for the clothing. And I said, I really need to stand behind the purchase order and let us ship because I think you will sell it. And if you don't want the next season, we're OK with you not doing it. But I paid for this. It's produced. You need to take it. And they took it and they sold everything and that opened the door for us.

But it was really a scary situation to to decide to push that. But I basically I had no choice. We spent the money to produce it all and we needed them to take it. And I really felt they would sell it because people would be home.

Well, I think that what you're saying overall is that, you know what you know and you know what you don't know. And times that stretch you where you're having to navigate the unknown and chart your course, you kind of you know, you get woke, you kind of get invigorated and like learn about something. And I think sometimes not knowing is amazing. Like, I didn't know that.

I had no idea there was even a list on podcast that this would be so successful. This would be one of the top podcasts before it even launched. And then I didn't know anything about alcohol. I walked into the alcohol space, had no idea there was never a low calorie ready to drink beverage before in history, we were the fastest growing beverage in history. So while I like data and it's nice to sort of think once you're into something about what's going on and not be just in a in a foxhole without any information, I like the gut instinct and I like the kind of the exploration process that you're describing and just navigating it because you might be finding out something that nobody else knows.

You might find something by listening to so many people talk. You know, it might not have been done already. And this is such a time for innovation that you kind of have to do a combination of listening to other people, but also have your own point of view if you're that kind of individual thinker, which I think everybody is in some way.

Yeah, definitely. I know when I was thinking about writing this book, the initial idea of it came from a friend of mine was having her fiftieth birthday and we were all asked to do some sort of gift for her that was based on turning 50. And so I illustrated one of those little books and I did fifty tips on turning 50. And it got a big response. And people were asking me, well, why don't you make this into a book?

And so I was working with a publisher on another book about facelifts and acupuncture, and they said, we need to make this into a MIDI book. So the idea of aging with power, there's a lot that I can share from that perspective. And so there are these circumstances that all of a sudden illustrate what you should be doing next. If you pay attention to how people are reacting or intuiting, like you said, you know, at a certain time without having education about it or information.

So I then realized that I had an asset in my seventy five years as a woman and what I could share with other women as they go through transitions to their 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s, 70s. And it's incredible. For one, I wish I had a handbook when I was doing all of this and going through my 20s, 30s and 40s and 50s. And there are these transitions are huge, Bethanie. They're they're monumental. And obviously 40 is, you know, your grand.

You know, this is the time to monetize it. This is the time to do it. And then at 50, you have to reinvent. That is the time you have no choice pushes you in that direction to reinvent and that 50 reinvention. You don't even mean just business. You mean as a human, as a woman, just as every way that everyone in every way. And for me, the way and the message is the way you decide to reinvent the 50 or the way you decide to take your brand.

And it could be you, your brand, not necessarily a product of the brand and monetize it. And how you set that up sets up the stage for how you're 50. Reinvention will be and the 50 reinvention sets the stage for the rest of your life. You don't have to worry about becoming invisible. You know, as people get older, you don't have to worry about a lot of the fears about aging. And of course, the three pillars of the healthy lifestyle, which is sleep, diet and exercise, are the mantra throughout the book, because those are the tools that give you self-esteem and confidence about your physical and mental health and your overall well-being so that aging with power is a reality, not some sort of fictional concept.

And so that little book really opened for me a recognition of what my purpose is in this lifetime. And my purpose has been to serve women, obviously. But to share this information is really, I see very well received. And and I'm so happy to do it. It brings me lots of joy.

I'm excited about it. I want I just turned fifty and I didn't make a big giant deal about it. I wasn't crying. I just but I feel good about it. I talk about it. It's good. I don't live in it. I just it's it's my life. It's who I am, you know. And I love that you're such a female empowerment figure and so modern that I want to hear about getting engaged at seventy five and how long you've been together.

I know that it's, it's funny because my boyfriend, you know, saw his name Marty Edelman. I've heard of him but my boyfriend's like, oh I know him. I said what was a dating in your seventies like b what did you know you were getting engaged. And that's very traditional, which I like to. And you do have a traditional side to you based on some of the things you've told me and I do as well. And you can't you can be traditional and modern, which I am as well.

And so is my house, by the way. And then all the meaning of all of it. It's beautiful. And I want to hear about it. And if you guys are partners a little bit in Binz, too, about how that business personal relationship intertwines, I thought for sure that other people would have soul mates.

I, I figured that, you know, I'm my I'm good. I have a good life and but the soul mate thing is obviously not going to be my experience. I didn't feel lonely. I felt years earlier that maybe life was passing me by. And then I then I thought, fuck that. No, that's not true. I'm not left me. So I was dating. But none none of the dating were serious enough to to say that this was my soulmate.

None of them reached that caliber. OK, but you had game. Yes. And I had a good time and I was a redhead for fifteen years of that period of time, so I had a really good time. OK, how about Ian Schrager is a very good friend of mine for a very long time. Hated every guy ever went out with and decided for some reason at sixty five, he found me the person that I should be with, so I could not believe that he could be right about something like that.

So I didn't take it seriously. In fact, I think I had been at the gym. I didn't even go home to shower for the first time I met Marty. So that was not what is right. You're you don't take it seriously. And now and so we met and we never would have been drawn to each other in other circumstances, just different lives. Right. And so we had a few conversations and I was really impressed with how smart he was and how extraordinary he is as a person.

So we started dating. That was 10 years ago. And he travels a lot. A lot. A lot. And I'm busy a lot. So we were together morning, noon and night do covid we were cooking together. We always go out to eat. We were doing things that we never did and we would have times that we would sit by the window and talk and have tea, or we'd have other times that we would do things that we have like a plan.

It was very romantic. And so on my birthday, he put a note by the side of the bed when I woke up saying, you know, I think we should get married and we never talked about it. We never stop in ten years.

You never talked about it. No, like for what? Why would I want to get married? I love this. This is such a good story.

So so we said, what do you think? Should we get married? And I was like, yeah, why not? So then. We were thinking, well, when are we going to get married and we talk about October and then we talked about February and it was like, no, I want to dance. I want a big dance party. I want to sweat. I want to hug my friends. I want to be outside. Let's wait until the summer and just have a huge dance party and tell everybody, by the way we got married and that's it.

And so we're waiting to get the covid sign off and we're ready. I cannot wait. I love this.

It's so funny because we were just talking about weddings. I love it and I love what you're saying. And for anybody listening, I'm not into superficiality. I'm sitting here in pajamas, not wearing makeup, but Google Norma Kamali, if you don't don't have a visual because she's beautiful and has beautiful skin and edgy and fashionable and in that relationship, like myself in my relationship, I can tell you are the peacock. There's only one pop in the relationship.

And I have a very conservative, understated man that I'm in a relationship with in the same thing as you. We would never have run into each other. So I love that. And I also think that getting that note by your bedside was the ultimate sign of trust. Your business person is a businessman. You know, you get into later in life, it's it's different. It's more like business in some ways that it gets a little tacky with prenups and agreements and divorces and things.

So it seems like you were together and just really connecting during this pandemic, which is a glass half full of the pandemic, to say the least, that there's an ultimate sign of trust, like I want to be bound to you. I mean, that's the ultimate sign of trust. That's what I get from that whole story that it's true. And and I think there's a silver lining and covid and some relationships fall apart and others come closer together.

And both of us recognize we were not ready for each other before the time we met. And I wasn't ready at all. I didn't have do enough work on myself on my own development to accept a soulmate. It's a big it's a big acceptance allowing. It's very I agree. And so now I really have such an appreciation for having a soulmate, such an appreciation for being with someone who's extremely intelligent and interesting and vital. And so for me, we don't do business together and we're very different in what we do.

But we inspire each other on a lot of levels. And we we have the same moral character. I think that's such a big factor in being connected to someone that your belief systems are pretty much the same, even though you know the peacocks in their lives, the fundamentals, the fundamentals have to be they're the fundamental basic fundamentals. And it could literally be cultural, religious, the way you like to travel, that your personal habits like fundamentals have to be there in a relationship.

I've learned more from my failures, just like in business, in relationships. And I have for my successes. And I have a book called I Suck at Relationships. You don't have to because like you, I have an allowed and I need to accept and have developed and be in therapy and all of that. So will you retire in any sort of way? Do you ever say, like, I want to get off this ride, I have my pile of money because I think like that I like time and I like sleep and I sometimes don't like to be pulled out and in the weeds.

And I say, let me just get to the safety spot so I can really only just do the things which I'm at. But, you know, when you put your money back on the tables, as you know, you've taken your money out of the table, the casino, then you go back in, you got to kind of follow up on your bets and manage it. So where are you in that process in your career? Well, like I said, I my dream was to have a creative life and I have it and I have a furniture collection coming out.

My sense is coming up, I'm doing a lot of projects that I love. And I think my purpose with the topics in this book about aging with power are important for me to talk about. In the book is called I Am Invincible and Aging with Power is is the core of the book. And so I know that topic and I'm really comfortable with it. And I think the more women that talk about age and feel empowered by age, the better we're going to be on a lot of levels.

It's a whole other conversation. But but I, I do think that I learned something about balance in my life through covid also. I never thought that I could have my business and not be on site every day. Oh, great. And I and I realized that I. Can do on site, off site, and so for that, I now realize I can have more balance in time, in nature and time for myself while still committing the amount of time I do to my business.

But because of being on site and off site, I have options now that I didn't have before. And a lot of other people are feeling that a lot of moms who can work but can't work on site or now there's there's a a Web site, a hiring site called Moms Project that is really good. And we are wanting to hire from there because now we know we can have more people off site. And so I think having balance with Bethany is probably more important to me than choosing one or the other.

I love doing things, inventing things. I think of myself more as an inventor than a designer. So I like coming up with new ideas for doing things that have been done before, haven't been done. And so and new ideas and technology to it's nourishing like you need it.

And people at home, there are things that once you've had what you need to be fed, you kind of know that you just continually need that in different ways. And for me, it's an outlet. This is an outlet. These conversations like I need to be having conversations. I need to be not only learning, but I like to be communicating. So and I'm not very social. So this is like a different thing. And doing this with you, it sounds like you're talking about is liberation.

Like you don't you can. You can. You can sort of. It's a balance. It's amazing what you're saying and it's so funny. You're the first guest. Like, usually it winds down and I'm going to let you go because your time is so valuable, which I appreciate. If so many things going on, I congratulate you. And I could literally you're the first guest I could talk to for forty five more minutes. I have ten more things for you.

What a wonderful experience. So thank you so much for your time and your amazing and inspiring. And I loved our conversation.

Nice meeting you. Really nice meeting you, Bethany.

Norma Kamali is iconic, and those of you listening are all different ages, and if you're me, you remember her iconic bathing suits and amazing, gorgeous, elegant cover ups and you just know that name.

But I didn't know what she looked like and I really didn't know anything about her personal life, which is why I find this so fascinating and interesting, this whole journey for me with you together.

Thank you for listening. And don't forget to rate review and subscribe, by the way. But she is stunning. She is captivating. She is honest. She is vulnerable.

She's definitely an HBC, but has this nature of being really relaxed and sweet and just healthy and not scary. I thought she was wonderful. I just thought it was such a great conversation with someone who's a fashion icon, who's watching the changes in an industry that doesn't know itself what it is anymore. And I just love these conversations with all these different types of people. So thank you so much for listening. That was amazing.

Just Beat is hosted by me, Bethenny Frankel, our managing producer is Fiona Smith and our producer is Stephanie Stender. Sarah Cattanach is our assistant producer and our development executive is Nayantara. Would just be is a production of B Real Productions, an Endeavor contest. This episode was mixed by Sam Bare to catch more moments from the show. Follow us on Instagram and just be with Bethenny.