Well, I have two sons, so I spent a lot of time trying to raise good men, right men that are kind to women, men that understand their duties, men that have responsibility. And I think lesbians should raise all the men because they're super macho and yet sensitive at the same time.

Hi, it's your friend Bethany, who is turning 50, and that sounds like a big, bad number to so many people. I remember thinking that I had to have my whole life wrapped up in my early 20s, which is presumably why I stopped trying to be an actress, why I got married at twenty six. My friends were getting married. Our our friend group was doing that. I think that was sort of the last of that generation that really got married on the younger side.

And even in my 30s, I mean, not, you know, 10 years ago, 11 years ago, I was getting insufficient. I mean, it was a little over 11 years ago getting insufficient funds at the ATM, writing checks that were bouncing, not able to afford a taxi downtown in Manhattan. And still in my late 30s, I did not know what was going to happen to me. So. I look at the trajectory from my late thirties to now, I was a late bloomer.

In my career, I was always driven, I was always determined, but I always was a hard worker and I always was moving forward on the road.

And I have a beautiful daughter, like I got my beautiful daughter. I have a career that is unfathomable. I have an amazing impact in the world from a philanthropic standpoint. So by and large, I you know, I'm happy and I've experienced a great loss. I lost somebody who I knew for thirty two years who was a constant in my life, who was not going to leave me, got to cry like everybody else seems to have done in my.

You know, quote unquote, family life, he was someone who could always go to Thanksgiving with her, you know, feel like I had a family and that's really hard. So I've suffered loss and heartache and a challenging, abusive childhood.

And I think that I've come out OK and I know that I'm raising a beautiful and wonderful daughter.

So my girlfriend turned 50 recently also, and she's oh, it's dreadful. And it's over. And, you know, I'm like, you're wealthy, you're healthy, your kids are thriving. Shut up. Look at the glass half full. Look at what you've accomplished. It's so vain and superficial to care. This is my process. This is my journey. This is where I am. I am 50. I am proud. This is what I look like.

These are my dark circles. These are my wrinkles. This is what it is. This is me and pajamas is me crying. This is what it is. And I'm proud. So the dedication today is to anyone and whatever their age is, this is 50. This is my 50, my 50s at somebody else's. This is my 50. It's the true 50 and it's a hard earned fifty. So happy birthday to myself.

I'm excited about my conversation today with journalist Kara Swisher. She is a powerhouse, she has worked in journalism for decades, and she also founded the technology news site Recode. She has conducted some of the most hard hitting interviews with the world's most influential people. She is a gangster. She calls people out. She's like a watchdog that just hold people accountable. So I am so honored and excited that I got to interview her. I'm pinching myself about the guests that we are getting.

It's bananas. And I know you're going to love this conversation, so let's get to it.

Hi. Hi, how are you? Good, how are you doing? I'm great. I'm really excited because for me, you know, from reading about you, you are way more informed about what's going on in the world of business and tech and really, really just current and on the pulse of of sort of everything that's going on, positive and negative. And truthfully, you tweeted that amazing tweet, which was just sort of putting you, me and Hillary in the same context.

I like to tweak Hillary a lot.

I do that online a lot to her because she's your Twitter. Yeah. Yeah, I know her very well. You know her well.

Yeah, I've interviewed her three times in an interview tonight, actually for. Oh yeah. So I know it really well. So I've been here three times and now this will be the fourth.

Oh well OK. So then I absolutely I was going to thank you. Would have to give you a bigger thank you. I'm absolutely certain that she would not have come on my podcast. Yeah. Had you not created that dialogue. And so I was grateful and then I said, OK, let's all come on. And so I'm appreciative that you're here because I know how major you are and your time is obviously very valuable. I appreciate and relate to your fearlessness, but there is some point where you just sort of lit the match and we're like, all right, I'm taking this thing all the way.

I've got this. And this is what I want to know and this is what we're doing. So how do you run this show?

I have to tell you, it's I was like this when I was a kid. I was very outspoken when I was a kid. It was irritating to my mom and continues to be to this day, I think. I mean, my mom always loves to tell the story. When I was in third grade or something, I walked out of class and said, I already know this and I'm not going to stay here any longer until you get me something fresh.

So, you know, I don't know. I don't know where it comes from. I think some people are just born a certain way.

That kind of bold and outspoken.

And I didn't I didn't suffer perhaps maybe because I was gay, that I worried about what men thought of me. I guess in some ways, a lot of I think women hold back a little bit. And I think it sort of freed me. I mean, I did grow up in a period when being gay was not a positive thing for. Absolutely.

And I'm older, but I think I just was like, you know what, they don't like me anyway. So whatever. I'll just like they have reasons that are ridiculous for not liking me. So what do I care?

And it wasn't not caring as much as I will do what I want and I will try to be, you know, fair.

And I don't think if you go to a lot of people I interview because I'm pretty tough on people, they'll say I'm unfair. I think it's just tough. And that's a very different that's what I go for. At least that's what I that's what my partners always say about me. They say she's tough but fair so they know what they're getting. That's fine. Yeah. I mean, if you're straight up and also I don't know about you, I'm not big on foreplay.

I'm not interested in a lot of like small talk about how was your summer? I don't feel a good fuck. So it's more about like, let's get to the meat of the matter. Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

I think it works actually. And I, I do think that in work, if you're like that, you can either go two ways. You can get sort of the reputation for a woman. I'm just talking about a woman of being a bitch, which I think people love to, like, throw that around. But I think if you just keep plowing through that, that people just stop at some point because it's not really effective unless you let it affect you.

It doesn't minimize the fact that a lot of women who don't have the same kind of attitude don't suffer for it because they have to edit themselves constantly. They have to sort of play the good girl. They've got to worry about the tonality of what they're saying. You know, there's so much talent locked in, so many people that gets pushed down and a lot of ways and that's where I I worry, especially if your person of color or your woman or if you're not comfortable in that environment, you tend not to thrive.

Well, I think about that a lot in tech because, you know, there's a lot of white guys in tech. That's it. That's it's just the numbers speak for themselves. And you wonder why that is. And I think a lot this is about bringing people into these tech companies, for example, that I cover. It's more about how do you keep them there and what kind of environment do you have so that lots of people feel more comfortable?

Well, it seems like the environments that you're walking into where you want to get information, the tone has to be set immediately. You've already said it because of your reputation, but it has to be said immediately because these guys think that they are all powerful, they've become gods. So you have to walk into these guys. It really you know, supermodels are running after nerdy tech dorks. And so you're having to walk in and say, OK, that's all great and wonderful that you have all this money.

But now what are you going to do and how are you going to hold yourself responsible? So how do you do that and how did you get into that world tech?

It was interesting because I was covering I was at The Washington Post and I sort of was headed for one of those traditional Washington Post careers, which is covering politics. That was sort of the thing at The Washington Post. That was the winner.

The winners did that, I guess not that there's amazing reporters all over that paper, but that was sort of at the time.

The big. The big. Game at the Post when I was I was so uninterested in politics, I just was like, this is ridiculous. There was a little too much closeness between the press and the people they cover. And there was just it just was like it seemed like endlessly bullshit.

I just was like, I can't imagine typing this stuff all day. And when I saw the Internet for the first time, I was like, oh, this is going to be big.

I mean, it's very hard to deny it. And a lot of people did.

They thought it was going to be someone called it CB radio to me. And I was like, no, if you could reach out and talk to someone.

It was very Star Trek. Right. And I was a fan of Star Trek and Star Wars and things like that. And I was like, oh, there's going to be a worldwide information system with these computers and they're going to be in your pocket. And I kept saying that everybody ignored me. It was funny.

So I just I don't know why I I saw it before other people. I think a lot of people did.

But I was one of the people who was in media who did. And so I immediately said, what am I going to do? What's going to be affected? And and I don't know. You're an entrepreneur, so. Right. So, you know, when you see something and other people don't see it, you go, oh, yes, yes, yes, this is what's going to happen, whether it's, you know, selling food or creating companies or whatever you're doing, it doesn't matter if you see an opening, you see it.

And so I just did because I think I'm entrepreneurial. And I immediately said, where can I go to write about this and where can I go to understand it? And then I immediately said, I got to get out of Silicon Valley.

This is where it's happening and did for The Wall Street Journal and start covering what has been the most controversial sort of unearthing that you've experienced or someone who you really who we all look at as some major visionary that we would all be intimidated by and that you just call them out on their shit and held their feet to the fire and they had to be accountable to you.

I think Mark Zuckerberg I think I've been very tough on Mark Zuckerberg and a lot of the stuff I have been writing about for years now, people are like, oh, I see. You know what I mean? Like, I think I was one of the first to say a single person having this much power over the world's communications is dangerous. There is no you know, this stuff that's going on in this platform is unregulated. And I don't mean about government regulation.

It's that they are they're running it badly. And there's all kinds of damage we're not saying. And so I think I was really one of the first to start to call attention to that rather loudly. And I kept writing pieces saying this guy and I've done a series of interviews with them that haven't been very good for him. We did one in where he sweat like crazy. I was asking about privacy.

I remember I've seen that.

And then we did one recently where two years ago where he talked about he and I had an argument about Alex Jones, who was breaking rules on his platform constantly, and he continued to let him do that, which I thought, you know, if you make rules, why are you letting people break them? And Alex Jones was the guy who was a broadcaster who was lying about the people that were killed, the children that were killed in Sandy Hook.

And I was like, why are you letting him spread lies and misinformation across your platform? This is not responsible. And we argued about that. And he shifted very quickly to the Holocaust and which I was like, oh, that's not a good place to go for someone who's not as intellectually throughput to discuss this major issue. Yeah, and he started saying that Holocaust deniers don't mean to lie. And I was like, oh, I think that's their whole business, is that, you know, I ended up having a debate about that.

And he just this past week has suddenly decided they do lie and he's going to take them off the platform. And so, you know, a lot of stuff that I have targeted at Facebook is I like Mark Zuckerberg, by the way.

He's a lovely guy. You like him? Yeah, it's a person. Sure. Yeah. As a leader of that company, not so much.

Well, that's design and is a designer who can do amazing fashion clothes and they want to run their business. They run into the ground. Well, except that in his case in a fashion designer dress comes out, it's bad. In his case, Kuhnen takes over Facebook. And, you know, Deunan is so nebulous and weird and strange.

And if they're allowed these without any kind of editorial discretion, it creates or or anti taxers or whatever, it just it becomes this.

There's no everything is dependent on when he gets figures out that it's problematic. And that's a real problem for me. And that's why you're there for it to be like that. Well, then then they actually should be they should be grateful for you. But you could save a lot. A lot. No, they're not. You are not grateful that they're not grateful. They're not grateful. Well, I am. And I think Mark really does deserve credit for understanding.

Social networks had been around previously, lots of them.

And he understood how what he did. He made all the right choices in terms of doing it. And at the same time, he didn't do his job as a as a manager to really once it got big to understand the implications. I think he understands it now. I think he didn't anticipate it. Yes.

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So you're in your personal life and your relationship. How is it to be so I'm a strong person. It's not someone nice to be able to handle me. Someone must be able to dance with me, do the waltz, the proverbial waltz. What is it like to be read about you in US magazine?

Just saying. Oh, right, right. Yeah. We're in the tabloids a lot that I know. I was only in the tabloid once when I had a baby anymore. Well, it was terrible.

They kept speculating whether Jeff Bezos was the father of my child, which is not. So it was really and that was the end of my tabloid career.

Pretty much hysterical. Yeah.

What's the dynamic of your relationship? You're married. Yes, I just got married again. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes. I call it the triumph of Hope over experience. So I was married for many years to a woman. We got married when people weren't getting married and we had two kids. And I have an 18 year old at NYU and a 15 year old who's here. I'm living in Washington now because he's in school here. And my ex-wife and I got divorced, very amicable.

But it was it was OK. It was, you know, how divorces go.

And and so we raised the kids together. But just a couple of years ago, two years ago, I met someone else on a blind date and we just got married and we had a baby a year ago.

So congratulations.

You know, I have everyone I've been with, including my ex-wife and my current wife, you know, they're obviously they give it back to me a lot. I think both of them were people in their own right.

And didn't you know, they don't they certainly tell me the truth, which is really helpful in a partner.

I don't know if you like that or not, but they spend a lot of time calling me on stuff, and especially when I sort of, you know, how the work tends to bleed into your personal life sometimes.

Your work personality. Yes, I do. So it's you know, they're different. I wouldn't say I'm that different, but it's definitely the techniques you use at work should not be used in the home in most of the time.

I think having kids has been a really important part of my life. People are always surprised how many children I have, and I'm a busy person, but I spend a lot of time, especially these gay people. My time when I had kids, we're not having children like we were one of the earlier people that have kids. And so I understand the value and importance of how much I wanted kids like and how hard it was to be able to have them not physically because it was I got pregnant really quickly, but how important it was.

And so I spent a lot of time thinking about my kids and focused on them and focused on the family unit more than almost anything else that I do.

Aside from my work, it's a compartmentalized life. But what I mean, what are your kids think? Do they understand what you do?

Well, I have two sons. The older kids are sons. And I spent a lot of time really making sure they understood the world itself, you know, and I especially because of the privilege they have. And, you know, I'm not going to do this like, oh, you should understand, but I want them to understand their place in the world and how what was easy for them and what they need to try harder on and how they need to open their eyes a little bit better.

And so I spent a lot of time trying to raise good men, right. Men that are kind to women when that understand their duties, men that have a responsibility. And I think I've done really well. I always think lesbians should raise all the men because they're super macho and yet sensitive at the same time.

So why should lesbians have good sons? They really are like now, I like that.

I like there's no like I don't know. It just they're really very and I also encourage them to argue, like with me and everyone else, like we have like really fascinating discussions about all kinds of things. And I want them to sort of understand the whole gamut of people's opinions and everything and not like, you know, we live we grew up they grew up in San Francisco. So you have a certain like you're going to have a certain group of people there.

But at the same time, they were very aware of the whole world and with the little girl, which is I have a little girl now, very different. And interesting thing that I have to really think about happens to be a super sunny child. As you know, kids are different, but I think a lot more about women's place because I have a daughter, you know, I don't worry as much about my son because I think they have an advantage no matter, you know what I mean.

White man in America really is not educated. White man with money in America is not the my biggest worry, all things being equal, not having other issues. And so I think a lot now about raising a daughter and what are the signals that are really important to try to stress so that she feels confident. There are you know, no matter how you slice it, there's still the the massive amounts of sexism still exists. I face it not with me, but watching it in the tech sector, in the numbers, even when people have the best of intentions.

Right.

It's still it's it's pervasive.

How has being a woman and a gay woman helped you? In what ways have you found it to be an asset?

Well, personally, it was very difficult the early years, because it was a different period of time. Like I think the world has changed quite drastically for gay people, although some of the recent rumblings from the Supreme Court are disturbing, to say the least. But I do think that I do tend to you know, I don't want to say. I do better in business because I'm a lesbian, because I don't think that's necessarily true, but I do think that often it changes dynamics with men both positively and negatively.

In many ways, men do want to get along with women. And I'm an easier person to get along with because there's no there's none of that. Like, there's there's no like there's nothing between us.

And so we can have just whatever the relationship is, a business relationship, which is never going to be the parts of the never have that got it happen. And you say so. But I don't think everything's sexualized. But there is an element to history and things like that, and people relate to each other. And one of the things that is negative, though, is sometimes when I'm, you know, especially with venture capitalists who not most of whom enough that is irritating are kind of really sexist or say rude things.

Right. And they often say like they're like, oh, she's good looking.

What do you think? And I'm like, still a feminist. Still a feminist like me may like women, but really don't want to talk objectify women, if you don't mind.

It happens all the time. Like men. I was like, oh, what do you think of her?

You know, but and I'm like and seen and we're back and it's still a feminist. I got to tell you, I don't talk about women's butts like Ari, like maybe to myself in my own head, but not to you.

Sounds to me like when you're talking to men, you're disarming in some way to them or you're unsettling. And it sounds to me like those are the conversations you own the most for whatever reason.

I don't know. I don't know. I hadn't thought of that. That's an interesting question. I don't. Oh, I think it could be. I've had some very tough speaking of Sheryl Sandberg, I've done some very tough interviews with her. Susan Wisky, who's the head of YouTube, and I have gone round after round around, you know, some of the disinformation on that platform.

So I know if they're that different, there just happens to be more men that I cover. Right. So there's there's been like most of the CEOs are our men.

The same time. I've had some really lively interviews, which I think are really fun with Mark Cuban. He and I have a really Elon Musk, who's certainly controversial on some issues. I just did a podcast with them on the Sway podcast for The Times, and it was lively, you know what I mean?

And I think it's just because it was Elon Musk, not because he's a man or a woman. I think it just depends on the person. Some of them are very lively and fun and some of them are tough and some of them are are, you know, very serious. So it depends.

Now, this is going to be real controversial. So I am a I am a heterosexual woman. I'm going on a date. You think I should pay the check? Yes. Are you richer? I don't know, I I like to get a you perceive you perceive that you're richer, hopefully not, but I don't know. I really don't know.

So if I'm rich, a rich person should pay the check, that's all. That's my rule. Whoever has more money pays a check. Whoever is perceptually has more money, pays a check. I think that's fine.

I don't know. Maybe you go back and forth.

I always you always pay the check. You're in you're in a relationship with a woman. And I think that it's so I'm setting women back. So just be prepared for this for a second and don't do that again.

If you want him to be like you do that, you be you you know, I don't know what to say.

And I say I get it. I got to be taken care of is what you're actually saying. Sometimes you don't want to be the one in charge and you want to be taken care of. So say that. So can you pay the check? Because I feel like being taken care of. OK, all right. All right.

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Are you very tech savvy personally, can you add on anything, do anything, figure anything out, you're helping your kids, the whole thing? Yes, they cannot hide from us because there are other mom was the CTO of America and as an MIT on the board of MIT and the Google executive was a.

So my kids can't get anything past us. We're like, oh, really? We can call the head of Instagram and deal with that.

If you owe me anything, you can get into anything, log into anything, figure any app out, do all this. I'm not hackers, but we could if you wanted to be, probably could be.

I don't think I have enough to be a really good hacker, but I certainly certainly we're good. We're very early adopters. I would say that we had all the early tech stuff in the house way before other people.

Well, that's hot to me. So you love Oyster's. Where are your favorite oysters? I have always San Francisco store to the best. I'm sorry. Up in point. Ray's like the smaller ones, not the larger ones. Right, exactly. And I know the Long Island ones are good, but I love the ones in San Francisco outside of San Francisco. I think they're amazing. And I actually taught my youngest child to shuck oysters because he had to be able to do it.

So really. So what our recent wedding was that one gave us two dozen roses from Rhode Island, which were delicious, I have to say, at a picnic in the park. We did a birthday party for the baby who was a year old, and my son shucked all the oysters and they were like, how did you do that? I said it was a requirement of being my child to be able to shuck oysters.

So he would go back and camp. Of course, I'm sorry. I'm going to get him a job. That's what he's going to do next. So that's amazing. Yeah. And the other one is a great cook. My other son is an amazing cook. And so he cooks like I was talking to the two of them last night. We were making a cake for my ex because it's her birthday today. And and my oldest son was like I was like, are you cooking Thanksgiving dinner?

And he's like, well, who else would it would taste terrible if you all did it.

And so he took whole he's cooking the whole Thanksgiving again. I say lesbians should raise all the men.

I'm going to put that on my dating profile really straight to only one word. I only want to meet a man who has a lesbian as a mother. It's going to narrow it down, but I'll do it. I did you know who I was before?

Yes, of course. I watched you on The Apprentice. I was. I'm the only person in America watched all the apprentices. My I was like, oh, you don't like Trump.

I'm like, I watched all the apprentices. I don't like them. But my friend, I watch all the apprentices.

And of course, you were my one of my favorite characters. I'm saying, well, you you knew you were going to win right from the start.

I don't remember exact stuff, but I was like, oh, she's going to smoke. Every single person is really sweet.

Well, you were good. I appreciate that. Who was the judge when you were on the Martha Stewart was Martha.

I know Martha really well. Yeah. How Martha was. That's delightful for you.

Yeah.

She's you know, Martha's deployed a lot of entrepreneurial fields in ways that people I get that people have issues around her. But she certainly is an entrepreneur.

She has issues around me. I don't really have any issues. She she's. Yeah.

She means you on the show. I don't remember. Well, I can't remember exactly.

But the words might have been, you are pushy, you're a show off and you're not entirely necessary here at Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia.

And I know. Well, then I would have said thank you. Thank you for the compliments. Yes, yes, yes. I'm sure that ruined your life.

I'm sure that ruined your life and your drugs. Yeah. It seems to me you have great you were great on the show. So I actually am very aware of who you are. And I'm fascinated by your businesses. I'm fascinated by I'm really interested when people do think mean when I went into the store, I'm like, huh, that's a good idea. That's an interesting I'm always interested in entrepreneurs. No matter what they do, they don't have to be tech entrepreneurs.

Oh, OK.

Well, I'm so grateful for you taking your time and I respect you. And I just wanted to ask your montera so I go no is a complete sentence.

Yes.

Oh my God, no. Is a complete sentence. All right. Thank you. No problem. Bethany, thanks a lot.

Well, she did not disappoint. You know, we had a little bit of sort of like back and forth, I don't want to say sparring, but she's not somebody who is going to just agree with you, which I love. And I mean, these conversations are making us all smarter. Let's just be honest. I mean, she has a point of view. She has an opinion.

She's not combative. You know, you'd think because this woman holds people accountable and like major multibillionaire tech people accountable, that she's just going to come in swinging. And it wasn't like that at all. It was really evolved, intelligent, informative conversation with a woman who is really she has she yields power.

I mean, that's the bottom line. And yet she's still, you know, just a mom dealing with home schooling. So keep listening and keep continuing to rate review and subscribe. We have unbelievable success in the launch of this podcast. Thanks to you. It's just proving the basic rule. If you love what you do, you'll be successful at it, because I love doing this more than anything else that I'm doing.

GSP is hosted and executive produced by me, Bethenny Frankel, Brail Productions and Endeavor Content. Our managing producer is Samantha Allison and our producer is Caroline Hamilton. Corey Preventer is our consulting producer with the ever faithful. Sarah Cattanach as our assistant producer. Our development executive is Nayantara Voice. Just Be is a production of Endeavor Content and spoke media. This episode was mixed by Sam Baer. And to catch more moments from the show, follow us on Instagram at just being with.

What's up, I'm Delaney. I'm Kelsey and I'm Taylor, and we are three type comedians and the host of the self-help podcast. If you've ever found self-help to be a bit cheesy over the top or absolute garbage, we get it. And we're here to help you sift through the dumpster of self-improvement to find the gems that actually might change your life or at least give you some hot quotes to keep in your back pocket for that wedding toast you might get one day.

We cover everything from anxiety, emotional labour, procrastination, breakups, funk, shway. We've even had a sex switch on the show because we are very fond of self-help books like Brunch with your three girlfriends who read the self-help book that you did not want to read.

Yes, and we've had on so many incredible guests, including Queer Eyes, Tan Frantz, Michael Bublé, Whitney Cummings and a bunch of awesome mental health, wellness and personal growth professionals. Come hang with us and other hipsters. That's what our listeners call themselves because they're Kudayev at self-help books, podcast dotcom or listen to self helpless wherever you prefer to get your podcast.