Wndyry plus subscribers can binge all episodes of Keolist early and ad-free. Join WNDYRY plus in the WNDYRY app or on Apple podcasts. I just wanted a quiet life. I know, man. I hear you. I hear you. Okay, well. I've been dreading this moment. Right, Let's do it. All right. I hate cold calling people. I don't know why, whether it's because I'm British or just awkward or that I don't like talking to strangers, but I really can't stand it. This is, quite literally, the most awkward conversation of my life. I need to tell the person on the other end of the phone that someone is trying to kill them. Hello there. Can I speak to my friend, please? Yes, it's me. Hold on. Hello, it's me. Who are you? My name is Carl Miller. I'm a journalist. I'm hoping you might be able to help me on a story that I'm working on. Okay. I'm starting with a man in Canada. I can't tell you his name, but someone on the dark web has paid around $5,500 for his murder. I've already reported the details to the British police, along with the other kill orders that we found.

They told me they passed the information over to Interpol, the international policing organization. But it's now been six weeks since I've heard from them. Those six weeks of silence have been terrifying. If something were to happen to this man in Canada, I need to know that I've done everything I can to warn him. It's to do with scam sites on the Internet, although it's reasonably sensitive in nature. So I wonder whether I could give you my email address and you can let me know when would be a good time for us to talk. What is the subject? Is it the scam from the Internet? Yeah, we've been doing an investigation into various scam sites on the Internet. We've come across some information which we believe might relate to you. We just want to take you through the information and- To me personally or related to my profession or what? Related to you personally. Okay. No, I'm not interested. Thank you. Yeah, not a great start. I was awful. And he's just the first of many more people on the kill list. I have to figure out a way to not only warn them, but to be believed or more people could end up dead.

From WNDYR Novel, I'm Carl Miller, and this is Kill List. Episode 2, Cold Call. By July 2020, my source, the hacker Chris Monteiro, had identified nearly 600 active users on the Hitman for higher sight, and there were new kill orders coming in all the time. I needed to bring some order to the list, or I knew it would overwhelm me. But looking around, there's no precedent for how you handle Darknet murder orders. So Chris and I, and a team of journalists and producers, invented our own workflow, a triage system. We called it the pipeline. My suggestion for a way of prioritizing, I think it should be threat to life. I don't think we should do it by investigatory potential. Step one, we narrow the cases down to the most dangerous threats. Not everyone who messages the assassination site ends up paying for a hit. So we started with the people who were actually putting up money to kill a specific target. By parsing blockchain data, I have found the actual wallet in question, which I would then use back to trace to the original transactions. Chris could access the back end of the Hitman website.

That meant he could see not only the orders, but also the payments. They were nearly always in Bitcoin. Chris would look for a transaction of exactly the same amount at the same time on the public ledger of all Bitcoin transactions, known as blockchain. If it all tallied, we had a confirmed payment, a crime, and a serious threat to life. Step two was to track down the victim. What's our level of confidence? It sounds like we're on the cusp of thinking that this is definitely, definitely her, but there's a few flags in the way.

I mean, I put it at like 80%.

Brenna Smith was our open source intelligence expert. Her job was to make absolutely Absolutely sure we had the right person and to find a way to contact them.

When I looked on Facebook, I was able to find a woman who had similar eyes, but she had a Snapchat filter over it, but it was similar eyes of like almond-shaped, big and brown. From there, I just obsessively stalked her Facebook and tried to find other instances of her online based on the information I had.

Brenna is one of a team of volunteers who joined us from the open-source intelligence intelligence outfit Bellingcat. Their magicians are scouring the internet for information and pulling together often scattered details.

It's a mind fuck looking for these people because I feel like I'm hunting them, too, when somebody else also wants them to be hunted.

Step three was to figure out the least damaging way of breaking the news. The man who could help us was clinical psychologist Dr. Howard Fine. When you first drop the information, it's like putting the carpet from under their feet and then feeling quite lost and disabled. Learning that someone wants you dead is a horrific thing to hear, so I need to do it as sensitively and as gently as I possibly can. The first few sentences shouldn't say that you're on the kill list, but it could be something about the dark web, and we're aware that there's some information about you on the dark web. Howard helped me write a script. The plan was to keep it vague and set up a time and a place to call back. Somewhere, the target felt safe and preferably somewhere they could be alone. That would be when I gave them the details. The whole way through, you want to give them a sense of control and for them to set the limits with you. The conversation was designed to gradually put them back in the driving seat. Towards the end, I'd be asking them what they wanted us to do, to help them to get to a place of safety, perhaps, and if they wanted, to involve law enforcement.

What we want to do as much as possible is to manage the immediate sense of risk and then to move on from that and to enable them. We're now giving you control by helping you make decisions. That was the pipeline. Identify the biggest threats, find the targets, prepare the script, all leading up to step four, the cold call. Right. Be brave, Carl. Plus. One, six, three, Hello, am I talking to Keenal? Hello, am I talking to... How is that? How is that? She just hang up on me. Call after call, I can't even get through to the person I'm looking to speak to an either.... I will phone back. You've dialed an incorrect number. Please check the number and try it. That was literally the same number as I just dialed. That's Taiwan dial code. Okay. So plus 886. I mean, I literally don't know what I'm in the queue for. What is Like, am I going to leave a message? Like, am I.... Hi there. My name is Carmilla. I'm a journalist. My number is... Thanks very much. And the chances of that ever being responded You are absolutely nil. Then there are the calls when someone does pick up.

No, I don't want any information. I'm trying to give you information. No. I don't care. I'm sorry. Okay. Well, thanks for your time anyway. Do give me a phone back if you'd like more information. Would we be able to arrange a time to be able to talk to you at greater length about that? No. Well, thank you. Thank you. Okay. After a few more calls like this, my producer starts to get restless. I do think you could have told him he was in more danger than somebody was threatening to harm you. I'm doing my best if you want to do the next one. I understand. You'd be my guest. I just think you need to put a little more urgency onto them. He suggests we try the first person again, the man in Canada. At least he didn't hang up right away. I don't know. That's such a difficult one. He definitely didn't want to speak to us. Yeah, but I think we should let him know that he's in danger. All right, I'll phone him back one more time and see if he picks up. Hello. Hello there. Can I speak to Mr. This time I'm going to forget the carefully planned script and get straight to the point.

I understand you don't want to work for me on the story. However, I'm actually duty bound to say that the information that we have might relate to you being in danger. I'm duty bound as a journalist to disclose it to you if you'd like me to. Actually, I don't have time for this, even if you're asking me for a survey that has something to my relationship to the job or to professional- No, it's not a survey. I'm a journalist. We've come across information which indicates that you might be in danger. I'm in danger? Yes, pretend- Thank you for trying to protect me. Keep me to face my dangers. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Bye. Goodbye. Wow. Leave me to face my dangers. He's not having any of it. I'm very surprised by that. I mean, if someone phoned me up saying you might be in danger, I would want to know what it was regarding. Yeah. Even a direct approach isn't enough to convince people. And worse than that, I am rubbish at this. See, the cold call doesn't fucking work. People think it's scams. I've been so worried that delivering this news might cause people to completely freak out or have a panic attack.

But instead, they all just assumed I was some weird scam artist, like those people call you up asking for your bank details. What I'm saying is just so outlandish that people assume I must have some ulterior motive. The only thing that makes me feel a little better is that these cases are already with the police. I've done that part. I just don't know if it's enough. Maybe I'm not helping anyone. Maybe I should just leave it to the police. But then Chris sends over more orders. This woman has caused a lot of problems for myself and Alice. Please, could you help me resolve this for the best cost? Murder needed. Please let me know if you can help with my budget. I would like to know if it's possible to kill him at the cost. Basically, there will be no link to me. Death as accident. My producers and I spend hours debating what the right thing to do is. The question is, how do we step in their lives? To be honest, I have absolutely no idea right now. There's no good way to do this. It's like getting into the ocean when it's cold.

You just have to go right in. We realized there is one thing we haven't haven't tried yet. Something even more direct, something that can't be ignored. If they won't pick up the phone, if they won't listen to a cold call, there's only one thing for it. We need to track the targets down and speak to them face to face. There are few things as terrifying as being buried alive. And that fear became a reality for 20-year-old college student, Barbara McAll, when she was kidnapped. Her captors took her to a remote area where they buried her in a specially constructed wooden container and threatened that if her wealthy father didn't deliver a $500,000 cash ransom, they would leave her to slowly suffocate in her subterráne prison. Were her captors ever caught? Well, in Season 37 of Against the Odds, we dig into one of the most notorious cases of the 1960s and the aftermath. On Against the Odds, host adventurers Mike Corrie and Cassie De Piccol share stories of survival and resilience with true stories that make you feel as though you're living these experiences with our heroes as they endure beyond their limits. Follow Against the Odds on the WNDYRY app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to Against the Odds early and ad-free right now by joining WNDYRY Plus. The first problem we're talking in person to the target is a big one. It's 2020 and the world is deep into COVID lockdown. The murder orders are spread all over the world, and leaving the country myself is completely out of the question. That's where Alex comes in. Holy shit. What the fuck have I got myself into? I'm juggling calls in different time zones to reach out to freelance journalists near the people being targeted. Besides Alex, there's Jonathan in Holland. Quite an interesting journalistic assignment. There's Esperanza in Spain. What has she done to provoke that someone wants to kill her? And Franziska in Switzerland.

You have no idea what's the story behind this woman.

The only question is, if you guys have a standard approach to this. That is a good question. Let's go through that process. Could you share-I lay out the plan for them. It will be their job to approach the target and see if they're willing to speak to me on a call. Having been over it so many times now, I know the words by heart. We don't want it to be so jarring that we stay just cold, straight off, high, you're on a kill list, someone wants to kill you. But on the other hand, we also do need to try and convey a genuine fear for her safety and that we would like to speak in a fairly urgent way. That's the balancing act, I suppose, that we have to try and navigate. Then I'll tell the victim about the order following the psychologist-approved script. We'll give them as much information as we can about our investigation and what it means for them. We need to convey the gravitas at the same time as not doing it in a way which is traumatizing. Man, what a world we live in. Then we'll let the targets decide what happens next.

We can help them contact local law enforcement or do it ourselves immediately if they prefer. We also have Howard on standby for counseling if they need it. Looking ahead, the plan is to keep talking with them. We'll give them updates if any new messages appear, and we'll continue to engage with the police and help the investigator education in any way we can. It's a vague plan, but it's the best we can come up with in such a short space of time. I have no idea what the freelancers we've hired are going to say. We're asking them to physically step into situations that were best unknown, at worst, extremely dangerous. We don't know why these people ended up on this list. There's even a chance that the targets themselves could be dangerous.

Why would somebody spend so much money on someone's life? Why would somebody be a target of that caliber?

I know it's a frightening proposition, and one, our freelancers have every right to say no to. And yet. I think it definitely need to go out there and check it out. If we're going to help somebody, then it's more than okay. Glad you all reached out and glad to be a part of it.

All right.

The new plan is in place, and it's time to test it out in Switzerland.

It's a cold, foggy autumn day, and it's in a neighborhood that does not smell of a lot of money at all.

It's late November, 2020, three weeks since we first saw this particular kid order. Franziska Engelhardt is parked by the side of the road in a suburb near the airport.

First, when you told me about the case, I thought, Oh, this is definitely going to be in an area where the rich people live. But no, this is absolutely not. So I'm curious of who I can expect.

I mean, I thought when we thought initially we were getting into this, maybe they were all going to be gangland or organized crime, but it's not. The target is a woman we're going to be calling Elaina, and the customer placing the hit goes by the alias Nordwatt. Maybe Elaina. Address: Switzerland. Car: Facebook. See pics on Facebook. Bitcoin will follow. We've traced the payment for her murder and know it's around $7,000. It doesn't take long for Euro, the website admin, to respond. Can you please tell us what accident do you think would be more okay? A car accident or maybe robbery gone wrong? Is she suffering of any medical conditions that could help us do the job easier? Maybe heart problems or something. We can use some untraceable drugs to make it look like natural death. Hi. A car accident or a robbery go wrong is Can you do the job in the next two weeks? The job will be done in about a week. I will send you updates soon. Using the order, we know a lot about Elaina. We know her age, we know what car she drives, we've seen her holiday photos. She looks, at least, like a completely ordinary woman.

But soon, all being well, we will be face to face with her with a message that in all probability, is going to completely change her life. It might even save her life, but only if she believes me. All right. Have you got any final thoughts?

How are you feeling? I'm pretty tense. I don't know what to expect. Just throw myself into this now and try to be very friendly. I am very friendly, but I hope she's friendly, too. Like, of course, these are also concerns. But I'm going there and I'll let you know whether she answered or not.

Well, we'll put all of our numbers in, signal. You can try any of them.

We're all here. Okay, give me at least 10 minutes. All right. Good luck. Okay.

I stay on the Zoom call with my producers waiting. Ten minutes pass, no news. 20 minutes Still nothing. I go to grab some water, then a message from Franziska. So our Swiss reporter, after a nail-biting, extremely nervous 20-minute silence, has just texted us to say that she's inside. She's just preparing the audio gear, and we are about to, for the first time, come face to face with one of the targets on the list. This is it. The moment I've been building towards for months now. I scramble to dig out the script I've prepared. Franziska texts that she and Elaina are going to join the call. I sit down and there is Elaina appearing on my screen. How are you doing?

Are you talking to me?

I am. Can you hear me? I recognize her instantly from the photo in the order. It's an uncanny sense of deja vu, actually. Like when you see someone famous unexpectedly, and for a moment, you think you know them. Elaine appears at me through the screen. She's in her 60s with brown hair and a pair of rimless glasses sitting on a sofa in her home. Yeah, okay. I'm sorry to disturb you like this. My name's Carl, and I'm a journalist. We're all working. This is the moment that everything has been leading up to. And now that it's here, my hands are shaking. How on earth do I tell this woman, Someone wants you dead. I fumbled through my script as I try and calmly explain to Elaina just what on Earth the kill list is. The important thing to say is that they are apparently murder for hire sites, but they're in fact actually scams. I stop for a moment and I wait for Elaina's response. She just looks at me. They never send any hit people out to actually commit any violence. But on the other hand, there are people that don't know that that use the sites to apparently take out orders.

Really?

Yes. It all sounds extremely It's hard, doesn't it?

Yeah, it does.

Elaina doesn't seem to understand the gravity of the situation, so I plow on. Sorry, there's no easy way of really saying this. We've come across some information which might mean that someone had put some information regarding you on the site. Elaina's face is impassive. I wonder if she's going into shock.

Yeah, I'm actually not really surprised.

This is not the reaction I'd expected. Really? In what way?

I'm having an ugly divorce. It's going on for about three years now. There's money involved, quite a lot of money, and My husband actually doesn't want to pay it, so I'm not really surprised.

We have our first suspect, Elaina's husband. I start to sketch out more details for Elaina. I tell her about the site and that the price paid for her killing has now reached $7,000.

I mean, $7,000 is nothing. Nobody's going to kill someone for $7,000.

No, I mean, that's right. But what this person has done, it's a crime, of course. So what we can do is work with you if you'd like to disclose this to the police. We wanted to talk to you first so that you can tell us how you want us to handle all this. Are you 100% positive that you think you know who it is?

Yeah, I can't be anybody else. I haven't got any enemies. Not that I know of so far. He's quite computer savvy, so I wouldn't put it past him that he knows how things like that work.

Can I just ask how you're feeling throughout all of this? I mean, this is clearly information that doesn't come as news to you.

No, I don't think it would go that far. But in the beginning, three years ago, he had me followed and all things like that. In the end, actually, I thought he's got weapons at home, and I thought, if he's going to do something, he'll do it himself.

What Elaina is saying is so monstrous, but she says it so casually. Is he nearby where you and Francesca are now?

He He lives in the next town. It's about six, seven kilometers.

If he wanted to, Elaina's estranged husband could be at her door within minutes. Do you feel in danger?

No, I actually don't feel in danger. I'm not the type. Not really. But if you're going to forward that stuff to the police I wouldn't mind, actually.

Okay, so we certainly can. We'll disclose that all today. Throughout our conversation, Elaina remains superhumanly unflappable. She isn't even going to change her plans for the evening.

I'm going to meet a friend later on, and she will be very interested in hearing that because she lives next to him.

She lives next to him?

Yeah, it's three houses down.

Oh, my God.

Yeah, going to be an interesting evening.

We make a plan to pass the order to the local police force right away. Perhaps we can talk whenever convenient over the next week or so, just to check back in for 15 or 20 minutes.

Yes, sure.

Thank you so much.

Bye. See you.

After Elaina hangs up, I sit and stare at where her face had just been on my screen. Wow. Well, that was honestly one of the most nerve-wracking conversations I think I've ever had. Telling someone that someone's trying to kill them is absolutely awful. I was stammering and, oh, God. This is just not a normal job. People do not have to do this thing. For weeks, I've been trying to reach the targets on the kill list, trying to get them to believe me when I say they're in danger. For the first time, I've managed to do it. I'm pretty sure Elaina doesn't think I'm a scammer. But on the other hand, she seems incredibly relaxed about the whole situation, despite the fact she knows exactly who could want her dead. So we have a prime suspect, her estranged husband. There's a clear motive. He needs Elaina dead in order to avoid having to pay out on their divorce. I feel worse now than I did before the call. How long will it be before he realizes that he's been scammed? And when he does, will he take matters into his own hands? And it gets worse.

After I finish talking with Elaina, I check in with Chris to see if Nordwand has sent any new messages. He has. 23rd of November. Okay, last chance. I need about three days to organize the Bitcoin. Please confirm that you can do the job in five days after I sent the Bitcoin. 25th of November. Hi, I sent you the Bitcoin. Please confirm that you start the job. First of December. Hi, I sent you the Bitcoin. Please confirm and confirm that you do the job in the next five days. As each day passes, we watch as Nordwon gets more and more frustrated. Just warning the victims doesn't make them safe. Until Nordwon is caught, Elaina's life is in danger. Follow Kill List on the WNDY app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes early and add Free right now by joining WNDY Plus in the WNDY app or on Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wndri. Com/survey. From WNDRI and Novel, this is episode 2 of Kill List. Kill List is hosted by me, Kyle Miller. It was written by me, Caroline Thornam, and Tom Wright.

Our lead producer is Caroline Thornam. Our producer Tom Wright. For WNDYRI, our story editor is Chris Siegel, and our senior producer is Russell Fitch. Our assistant producer is Amalia Sortland, and our researchers are Megan O'Yinca and Lena Chan. Additional research from Chris Monteiro, and from Aniq Mosu, Fuca Postma, and Brenner Smith at Bellingcat. Additional reporting by Franziska Engelhardt from podcast Schmida, Esperanza Escribano, Jonathan Groubert, and Alexander Richie. Our Consulting Psychologist is Dr. Howard Fine. Fact Checking by Fendor Fulton. Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Tobin, and Charlotte Wolf for Novel, and Lata Pundia for Wandery. Original Music by Skyla Gorderman and Martin Linnebell. Music Supervision by Nicolas Alexander, Max O'Brien, and Caroline Thornam. Sound Design and Mixing by Nicolas Alexander. Additional Engineering by Daniel Kempison. For Novel, Willard Foxton is Creative Director of Development. Our executive producers are Sean Glyn, Austin Mitchell, Max O'Brien, and Craig Strachan for Novel. Executive producers for Wandery are George Lavender, Marshall Louis, and Jen Sargent. Daphné Kairouana Galitcia was a household name for her fearless reporting on government corruption in the Panama papers. Nothing got in the way of her search for the truth until she suddenly murdered by a car bomb explosion right outside of her own home.

Disturbed by police in action, her son, Matthew, turns to the international journalism community to find answers. And what they find is a shocking trail of government corruption, covered up crimes, and deception that rises all the way to the top. From WNDYRI, Who Killed Daphne is a six-part podcast series hosted by investigative reporter Stephen gray about the mysterious assassination of a blogger and investigative journalist that expose some of the most scandalous secrets of the rich and powerful. As the investigation unfolds, answers become more complex, revealing immense scandals, offshore companies, and corrupt politicians. You can binge all episodes of Who Killed Daphne exclusively and ad-free on WNDY Plus. Join WNDY Plus in the WNDY app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.