This is exactly right. Hello, welcome. Welcome to the whole time, my favorite returner and antonym exactly at the same time. Exactly on exactly at the same time media. That's right. That's Karen Kilgariff. That's Georgia. Howard Stark. Hi. How are you? Coming at you from our individual home as per home.

We're not protesting anything. We're not home. You know why?

Because it's just normal.

It's what you're supposed to do and you don't want to get the virus and give it to other people. The highly deadly virus. No one knows how it works. Stay home. Yeah. And when you when you scream into the law enforcement faces, it turns out it doesn't help at all. It hinders, some would say, strong start.

We've done it again. There we go. I mean, let's just make this a fucking political podcast at this point. How do we talk about anything else? Oh, man.

Well, it's kind of being shoved down our throats all the time. That's why we do this podcast so you can escape. This is the escape hatch from that reality. Yeah. Into the one we've decided to create.

And you should absolutely be wary of the fact that the escape hatch of reality to make you feel better is a murder podcast. Yes. Please, no, please read the the Post-it note that we stuck on the escape hatch before we went through it first.

And it says, Beware all ye who enter your type of things to its two women talking.

It's a murder podcast. What's podcast.

It's one big God forbid. So get ready for it. God forbid.

But how are you doing with your stability house and living in it.

Well I mean that all that's fine. I did, I was I think yesterday was a breaking point for a lot of people. I was getting lots of texts like, hey, I'm freaking out.

So tonight, actually, technically, although our reality, it's two nights away, it's a full moon. And I think that has an effect on people, especially when you're indoors and you need to be indoors. Yeah.

So just I don't know, I would say keep conscious of details like that that might be affecting you. What does it do? Turn down a wire?

You know, like every every time there's a full moon, like crime times, crime spikes, like crazy people get a little nuts.

It's like kind of like mercury in retrograde, I think. So only the moon is much has much more of a true direct. You know, we're made of water. The moon affects the tides and our periods. Yeah. And all those things. So, Push-Pull, there's all that extra pushed.

Extra pulled this week. Stay aware. So yeah, I think there was a little bit of that kind of I had a couple, you know, we had a couple things we had to get done on the phone that felt like way bigger deals than they normally do.

I almost cried in a business meeting, which was. So did you you notice last week when I almost started crying? Oh, I'm so embarrassed.

I was just like, get it together. No. Yeah. Was that when it was just the four of us though. Yeah. Yeah. OK, yeah. And I did, I thought, OK, I did notice it but I thought it was something else so that I was just kind of like that was getting my period. I know. I remember I said, are you OK. Oh yeah.

Yeah. And you were like yeah yeah.

And then I was like Oh that's. I hope she didn't think that was me being mean.

Oh no, no, no. I was really doing it.

But it that's the weird part. And it is this part is driving me crazy. It's very difficult. You and I have almost I, I feel sometimes a like a psychic connection where I don't have to say a lot of stuff to. Yes.

I really don't feel the need to because I know that you're already there. I wish you wouldn't. I mean I do. I know I do a lot.

But and so it's it's more difficult and it's very frustrating to me to have to podcast with you when there's like, say, a delay or a thing. Yeah, I don't get that the high of the connection. No.

I mean, it's almost like we need to start recording our phone calls because those are so funny and fun and very funny. But then yeah. Then it would ruin that and it wouldn't make any sense anymore.

I know, I know. It's just, it's just an odd like that part of the adjustment. Those are the things I'm missing and feeling is like when people go like a human connection.

But there really is that thing where it makes me feel like I when I feel I am connected to other people.

Yeah, it's very important, it turns out. Yeah, it is. I almost cried the other night thinking of, like, hugging. The first time I'm going to hug someone besides fence and or a cat, it's going to be so emotional, I feel like, you know, it's just going to feel like I feel like for the first it's going to be like when World War Two ended for the first fuckin couple of weeks, everyone's just going to be, you know, basking in these experiences that they haven't been able to do in three years.

I mean, yeah, really when it actually ends because people won't stop going out anyway and it ends up lasting for that to happen and arresting black people and giving white people mask's tickets. You know exactly the total disparity of justice in this country anyway. Anyhow, anyhow, we promised you this was an escape and we're we're escaping you right to the front page of every newspaper that you've had to read this whole time. That's right. The perfect escape. I will say this here is how I am escaping and I don't know why I found it so soothing.

Scandinavian Scandinavian police procedurals, very much like their furniture, are so beautiful. And there's one there's a couple I've been watching that I really binged. One is called The Truth Will Out, OK? And it's really well done. Really well made. I think that one is on Netflix. Can't remember everything is either on Netflix or Amazon. That one is great and the characters are amazing.

So it turns into like it's a cold case team that's kind of ragtag to love a ragtag group of anything and but so well written, so realistically, wonderfully well written.

And then this one I just started is called Trapped and it's Icelandic. And the main guy is this huge. I mean, let's be honest, he's a bear. He's like a bear is huge and hairy, has a big beard and he's really gruff.

And he is small town Iceland trying to solve these murders.

And you're like, maybe I need to move to this town for real. I'm going there. This second's quarantine is lifted. And where yeah, it's like, come on, it's really cool. But and they also it's the thing we're in the middle of a full on foreign procedural. Everyone starts speaking English when they have to talk to other people, they'll just be speaking English with no accent. We're just like, man, that's cool.

You're like, I'm sorry, but thank you.

Yes, I really appreciate it. Could never do it. I mean, I try to start taking ice Icelandic language lessons, but how I would need the full five years.

That's right.

Oh, God. Maybe I by the time I get there, I'm saying, yeah, when the squadron team is live and then she gets some she gets to move there.

What else do you want to.

I keep saying a title of a show that I drunkenly wrote down to, to recommend and laughing out loud like it's it's like I have like Atlanta's missing and murdered on HBO and everyone in the Green River.

And then just in the middle of it is a show called Flipping One on one on HDTV.

So it's so good.

And it's just people redoing houses. It's this guy he got they're losing their shit. It's this guy, Tarik. He had a he got a divorce from his wife, who they had a flipping show. And so now he kind of gets the short end of the stick show of having to deal with people who never flipped this before. Well, she is going off to, like, marry some dude in Orange County and love this beautiful house. And I just feel for this guy.

So, Eric, is that this is that written into the show or.

It's just like do you or you just know if you follow HDTV like we do, then, you know, OK, like, you know who.

And he just he seems so I feel so bad for him.

Yeah.

Well, you don't want to be in a famous couple and then break up. No. And that's get the short end. Oh well I mean how do you. Yeah I guess you're right. If you're if you're like immediately marry a hot person.

She married a hot person, she got pregnant. She's so beautiful. They've moved in this huge, lovely house and they're like remodeling friends houses together. And he just isn't like Alhambra remodeling like the saddest house.

He's got one of those really bad, like Gote. Yeah. He's grown out of a divorce. Go to you. Does not working. Oh my God. How many divorce goatees are out there. We've seen them or. It's just like I get it, you're changing it up trying to change something. You got to lie. I get it.

My divorce go to you is fifty pounds. So guess what. No judgment.

No wonder your divorce gote is different.

It's all different. There's no judging. Comfort yourself however you can, whether it's horrible facial hair or non stop mac and cheese.

Do your thing. Yeah.

I mean these here's, here's something that isn't really anything. I recommend Persay because it might not be interesting to anybody else, but sometimes at night because I. Don't want to go anywhere, and I don't want to introduce anything new into my household, so I'll just make myself like a Kasarda or something very basic with my basic culinary skills. But then I just read post mates like I'll just see what restaurants are still open, like my neighborhood. It's one of my favorite hobbies.

It really is where I'm like, I would get this and this.

And then I just like, close it all, shut it just scrolling through. I sometimes I open it and I'm like, oh, what's new? Like what's new in my neighborhood?

Even though I'm not going to know, I know all the neighbor and all the restaurants in my neighborhood.

I know most of them by heart. And it was very scary. And you can kind of it's a real measuring stick post.

It's because, you know, a week after the quarantine was announced, a ton of restaurants just went off entirely. And then you're just like, oh, no, I hope those come back and, you know, getting so worried. Then there's all those restaurants that got super creative and they want us to send you a bunch of flour and bread and sugar.

We can totally and there's like a biscuit window near one of the places near my house where they just, like, make different kinds of biscuit sandwiches. And it's just like you like. Oh, yeah, they're just selling my house, moving into your.

So yeah, it was a great idea.

All the pantry items and shit. I know it's super cool. There's so many places. It's that thing too where I'm kind. Sometimes I'm scrolling going what if I made something. Yeah. Like you're not going to but then it's or what if I got a full Italian family dinner.

Like what if I got wall-to-wall carbs in here and then I'm like, close the window.

Oh man. That's almost things I was doing, like an order on Costco. And he was like, I got this. I got that. I got. And then he said, I have I got ravioli lasagna. And I was like, hold up once.

So instead of the lasagna pasta sheets, it's just ravioli.

So it's like double timing. It's double the pleasure, double the fun front, back, front, back at these all time layer we're living in to remember get it, eight ravioli lasagna like I mean how do you not how do you not turn to pasta in days like this. How do you not go. That's the solution.

All the all rules are off here, which is fun and nice and kind of teaching me like a better way, you know, like just don't eat all the bread, but you can have bread but you can have really nice, nicely made bread.

Not really enjoy it. Don't like beat yourself up while you're eating it out of it.

I, I what I'm doing is it as a small celebration for myself is using a very large cereal bowl.

It's to be smart. Have you done that where you're just like this is easily three bowls of cereal but let's see what happened.

Know that I. How have I.

I've eaten three bowls of cereal in a row but I've never in my life thought to get a bigger bowl like that's somehow not allowed in my life. It shouldn't be normally, but now it is. And it is now it isn't that I love it.

You know, this has taught me two things about myself. One is that I don't want to bake bread and I never want to bake bread. And I have no fucking interest in baking bread even though everyone's baking bread.

How do that whole thing of starting your the wheat there sour? No starter and and it's a lie.

They call it a mother out of here to put flour everywhere it's like and it tells you to make a mess.

You touch it so much flour, you put it on this, you add more flour, keep rolling flour and stuff your old hand inside it. You make sure your hand get gets all over it. That's red.

All bread is fifty percent someone's palm.

Oh God. Yeah. Your fucking bread rather. And not be mine I guess. And also that puzzle. I have no interest in puzzles and I fucking tried, I got a puzzle of like my favorite photo of me and Vince were both taking swigs of beer on stage at the same time. So it's just like a can of PBR. Both of our faces got it made.

It is a puzzle. Literally poured everything out. Was like, I don't want to do this now.

Can I just give you a tiny bit of puzzle guidance, take or leave? I have no interest. Yes. When we do calls that are not Zuhause, that's all I'm doing. Baby puzzle time I need. There's no I should be into it, but and better however. Yeah. And ok, ok.

You know, it also it is sometimes and you have to have this experience maybe to really have it start feeling like it's paying off.

But sometimes I just stare at the puzzle for a really long time and then I'll just pick up a piece and put it in immediate, like it feels like puzzle psychic ability. And that's what keeps me coming back for more, because suddenly I think I have this idea in my head.

I'm good. Well, that is what's cool. It just crossed my mind that you can get better at puzzles. It's not just like you're always going to suck as bad as you suck at puzzles. It's like your skills get better and better. Yeah, and little it's almost like, can you face this reminds me of, like I can do puzzles now because I think the fact that I'm middle aged and like in a place in my life where I'm actively practicing, like, patience and things that I have never been able to even approach.

Yeah. And it reminds me of like when I was in my late 20s on speed at like Buffalo Exchange, watching the girl that worked there go through someone's garbage bag filled with clothes, and she would take something out, look at it and then fold it.

And she just very slowly where I was standing there going like, well, I thought if I did do that, like I was flipping out, like, how are you doing this? How are you doing it so calmly and why do you like it? And this is awful.

Like Zen almost where she's just like this is like origami or something where it's just right. You have to mention it. Not on speed.

Right. So that's everything.

Speaking of twenty years to realize that birthdays, do you want to talk about their birthday? We can cut this out speaking.

I feel like everyone is having a birthday.

And during this time now we now will understand what it's like for kids who have their birthdays during the summer, which is why I have an idea to have a birthday blowout for everybody who has a birthday one, the quarantine. And that's a great everyone in the world will all just I mean, we'll see who I feel comfortable giving my address to.

But for the most part, we'll have a good idea all the birthdays where we're going to get stuck indoors and we'll just have a kind of a someone just pulled into my driveway. Oh, no, no. They're only turning around.

I pull out a rifle. I like the idea of like a party that might go all weekend long.

Oh, yeah, you can stay here. You can get a room at the hotel. But like, let's just do it.

Bring your dog and like, blow it out. Hang out. Yeah.

People bring the dogs, build a dog park in the back. Yeah. You know, I get like I get like disappointed in a visceral level when I find out there's not any pets at the party, I'm going to, you know.

Yeah. That means there's no escape hatch for you.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. All right. I know. What else do you have. Oh, can I, I just ask you a question.

What I'm going to let you. No, go ahead. I don't think I have anything else. I just think. Are you going to do a podcast. No, ro. Oh yeah. I can go ahead. Do it now. You go first.

Oh that's what I was going to, I was going to recommend and I know I've recommended it before, but my favorite one of my favorite podcasters who is a I think a clinical psychologist and a Buddhist teacher, Tara Brock, she's doing a series now and it's called Sheltering in Love.

And it's all about dealing with the feelings of being in quarantine and the frustrations that come out of it and the and the feelings that come up and kind of how to hang. And it's very she's really good. Yeah. Like, I think she started it, you know, for three, I guess, seven weeks ago, seven years ago by talking about it.

She started it when this happened, who knows?

But there's now like there's like five or six episodes of it. And it's just really helpful. Like, I get up in the morning and as I'm doing the dishes are doing kind of things around the house I stick it in. It's just a really nice level set. So if anyone's looking for if anyone feels a little spinny or like my thoughts are taking over, oh, I think this or think that or whatever, you're targeting me right now.

I'm pointing in your face with my word. Yeah. It's just I find it so helpful. Yeah, she's incredible. She's just one of the best. Speaking of I finally started listening to unlocking us with Bernie Brown and I, I you know, I started I was like, I know everything she says. And and then of course, I listen to the first few seconds of an episode and burst into tears, which doesn't fucking happen to me.

What are you talking about? It was. Let me see. Hold on one second. It was OK. So it was the episode, Dr. Marc Brackett, who does studies emotions and teaches just like how to feel. And he said something that happened in his childhood and how hard it was as a kid to, like, understand what's going on. Buckin started crying.

And then there's another episode that I really love called that's just her talking.

It's called It's Just Briney on anxiety, calm and over under functioning. And it's just a thirty minute episode and you just like learn so much and everything makes sense. She started calling like your family that you were born into. She calls it your first family.

And that just calmed me in so many ways where it's like that's not that's not your chosen family. That is the first family that you were born into. And then you get to move on from that if you want. And that's like I really stuck with me, so. And also, you're the family that you are born into, your family, your first family or whatever you want to call it, is also I always compared my family to every family.

OK, because I did that.

Did you think I was going to say every other family around? Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, I was always doing it to TV.

That's. Wow. Yeah. So then I would be like I remember one time in like fourth grade when I was like, like trying to confront my mom about that fact. She had a job and she wasn't waiting at home when I got home from school to give me cookies like her and she like like, you know, Mrs. Cunningham or whatever, like any TV mom. And she just she was like, are you kidding me?

Like, it was like this thing of like, what are you talking about? Like, I have to work to pay for your stuff. Yeah. You know, like that's not real.

But I just because that's the idea, you start getting these ideas in your head as a kid and if no one if no one interrupts and goes, yeah, that's not realistic, that's pretty much everybody's mom has to, you know, either work or the job of being at home is work. Yeah. No one's knowing sitting there with their hair done and a bunch of lipstick on going, honey it you.

Yeah. It's very rare. Very rare. Yeah. TV yeah. That's how I did. I did that with Niono, Tuno and relationships until I was like twenty where I was like this is how relationships are supposed to be so dramatic and Thuc and tumultuous.

And then I was like Oh you're just modeling after Brendon and Dylan and Brenda. Brenda. Yeah, yeah. It's Shannon's friend of the pod, Shannen Doherty.

Love you, girl. Hi. Shannon Doherty, my sister. We saw her at the Beverly Center the first time my sister came to visit me. I know I told you the story, but the first time my sister came to visit me, when I moved to Los Angeles, we went to the Beverly Center and we were walking around and Shannen Doherty walked by. And my sister's the only one who saw her. I didn't even see her at Shemer.

And my sister looked over at her and she gave my sister a huge smile, like I think my sister had the light and the headlights like holy shit because it was prime to era and she gave my sister this huge lovely smile like super nice. And then she, my sister is like oh my God, she had a daughter. Just smile at me.

I'm like, bullshit, because that's what sisters do. Sisters, actually, that's the person I've been texting the most during this time and like connecting with the most, which is really nice.

My sister, no mine, although I did have I did talk to your sister on text. Did you text me and. Yeah, we talked a little bit. My dad. And you're in no way your dad and my husband have texted a little bit just to check in.

That's the that's the love of a lifetime. Definitely. I'm not surprised that my dad texts Vince because he asked me how Vince is. I would say every other phone call where I'm just like, I mean, this is sexism.

A, Yeah. And then B, what's it like? Just ask him yourself if you're so interested.

And this is a fucking lumberjack at this point, that because it's like the third person in our quarantine, it is majestic. I've asked him if I could put flowers in it and take a photo. It's like I want to see a picture. OK, I'll send it to your post or please put flowers in it. It's yes. Pretty special.

Is it long. It's robust. Oh yeah. I it going white. Yeah.

And there's like all it's like grey and there's red hair and whatever and I don't need to talk about my husband's beard.

Oh. Speaking of sounds like you like him.

Just speaking of my dad. So apparently I don't know if you've heard about this, but Britney Spears has a home gym and she made a video on Instagram a couple of days ago telling everybody that she left some candles burning in her home gym and well, basically, she burned around gender white.

Yes, I didn't. So, yeah, it's so people have been tweeting me the video and going, what would Jim think of this? Oh, yeah. And going like, we need to know Jim's response. So I actually called my dad.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And I'm like, Dad, you're going to have to hang in there. Now, here's the problem. My dad lost one of his hearing aids somewhere during quarantine, so he's still waiting for it to be mailed to him. So it takes a while to explain that. Go where? I'm like, Dad, do you remember the 90s?

So it took a that he's he's all right, OK. And then he gets mad at you because he's like, yeah, I know what you're talking about, but I've been explaining it to you. Yeah. And it takes so long that he thinks I just want him to acknowledge that she exists and he changes the subject.

I'm like, no, there's a story of my dad dead. She she left two candles burning and basically burned down her home too. And I can't this isn't something I can respond explain to people on Twitter, so. I figured I would save it till now because he went and had this loud Santa Claus laugh, I can't even do it.

Sounds joyous.

It sounds to me he loved it.

He thought it was hilarious where it's like now that he's retired, the job is so far in the right.

He can, I think, be more light hearted about he thought funny, funniest thing he'd ever heard.

It seems really hard to do. Like I think like these days, candles are made in such a way where it's unless you put it under a curtain. Yes.

It's hard to light shed on fire with them. And we're going to get a bunch of messages telling me that's not fucking true. And I totally agree.

And I know I mean, I think there's in some ways well, people are at least looking toward that a little bit more these days as candle makers. But clearly, there's a large chunk of that story that's missing on Britain's part that it's like and like.

So how many days did they burn? Like, what are you talking about? That two candles brought down your home? Yeah.

And who works out to candlelight is another question.

I feel like you have you're on the elliptical sipping wine and some remarks playing in the background.

Cool home gym, a romantic workout. Hey, home gym. That's your dad's podcast.

Oh, and then so I told I explained to him that people were asking what he thought about that on Twitter.

And then he just went, I got fans like Jim Gibb or Big Fans, Home Gym. Home Gym. That's him during the quarantine and that. OK, sorry. Oh no. That was the best story I wish you had with. That was incredible. I wish I wish it had been different. I know exactly right.

Media, that's our podcast network that we started. And we have of course, the new podcasts, Our Bananas.

And I said No Gifts with Bridgeboro Winegrower, which was in Oprah Oprah magazine. Oh, Miss. Guys, congratulations to Bregier that is picked you, Bridget. It's like it's forever you month or two of podcasting and it's an Oprah already. Yes. So very cool. We just found out before pressing record that if you go to like iTunes and search. Exactly right. All the podcasts that are on our network come up and then some so you can check out what's going on.

Murders this week, murder squad, if you haven't heard it already, they get into the West Memphis Three. They got autopsy reports, Paul Hill's digs into what the factual autopsy stuff is. Apparently, it's amazing. I haven't listened to it yet. I can't wait to away tomorrow. Yeah, Billy actually texted me is like, did you listen to it?

And I'm sorry, but I have my own podcast. Guys work on some things, some things to quarantine.

But I can't I can't wait. Apparently, it's great. And Paul is you know, I love it. I can't why that's such a that's such a case that I just can't I can't not read or like, you know, look it up all the time and just, uh, I hope it solved one day.

I know it's it's amazing. And it's it's so that documentary man I will never forget watching it. I watched it. Margaret Cho's house where it I said, yeah, yeah. I watched it one night. John Travis was there.

Every Parker was there, me and Margaret and it we were like gripping the seats like hope we were freaking out. It was amazing, insane.

And there was recently and like two part documentary called The Forgotten West Memphis Three, which is about the you know, I mean, the the three boys who were murdered, those three West Memphis people. And it's it's really good to and I think the theory is right that the stepdad did it. Yeah.

Yeah.

But it would just be so nice to know for sure. Yeah, for sure. There's been so many theories and you get you get led down so many paths. It's like so many things seem possible in that. Yeah. In that situation. Yeah. Crazy.

Um oh I have a really quick corrections corner. Yeah. I said in the mini so this, this week I pronounced city wrong shockingly. Really. Yeah. Uh New Hampshire town is pronounced Nashua, not Nassau County or Nashua.

Nashua. Sorry about that guys.

New Hampshire. Yes, well, I mean, we need a correction is going over next week, so we might as well we really do. This is called creating content until how you do it. Yeah, we took a class. We took a class and invoicing an amazing class at Santa Monica City College.

Wow. OK. In 2012, a 72 year old man named Samuel Little was charged with three Los Angeles murders dating back to the 1980s. So we finally got to where we're going.

The crowd at Liverpool roar after only one appeal.

But since then, it's become clear he is the most prolific serial killer in the United States has ever seen, 93 victims, 19 states. Samuel Little has become infamous, but his victims, some of whom remain unidentified, are stuck in the shadows. It's time for that to change.

My experience in working with some of the victims families is that he was dead wrong. They were missed. They were very loved and their families were hurting.

The fall line presents a special limited series. The victims of Samuel Little will cover both solved and unsolved Southeastern cases and tell you how you can help the victims. Still waiting for justice, featuring rare interrogation tape, FBI interviews and in depth detail. This is a series you won't want to miss. Episodes begin on September 16th from Exactly Right Network. Find us on Stitcher Apple podcast or wherever you listen. Do you know what story I'm going to do this week?

Tell me I'm going to do the rescue of baby Jessica McClure, get her back to the 80s.

Oh, good one.

How are we not done that? Great one. Well, it's really well, it's well, underline italicize. It's out of the normal true crime MLU, I would say. But I was you know, we were talking about where I was like, we can just do what we would like to talk about. We don't have to be so we don't have to adhere.

And then once I got into it as as always happens, once you start reading articles, there is an unbelievable article by a writer named Lisa Belkin that was written in nineteen ninety five from The New York Times. And it's called Death on the CNN Curve. And I recommend any everybody read this article.

It is an unbelievable exposé about this time in the late eighties. So I guess CNN started in 1980. It didn't really start making money until 1985. So before that, it was just this kind of it was almost like C-SPAN. It was a four hour news that no one watched. It was really boring and dull. And it was just for I don't even know. I don't know. It was four. But then, you know, mid to late 80s, it started gaining a little bit of traction.

And this baby Jessica story is one of the things that started kicking off the twenty four hour news cycle disasters. People are just so interested in disasters. Right.

But the understand was. Yeah, I mean, we if anyone relates it, I'm not shaming anyone right here yet.

But it's just fascinating because before this time and it's so difficult for a lot of people who weren't around for this and it's odd to even think about now, like there's this time in the late 70s, early 80s, where nothing was branded, like there wasn't stuff brands of sticking up all over you didn't have. There wasn't that brand awareness. It would just be like if there was a calendar on the wall, it would just be a willow tree.

You know, you would see people just had a brown couch, a brown plaid couch and shag carpeting.

You buy your couch from Sears or J.C. Penney or it's just the couch that was there when you moved in. Right.

Like it was there was this real brown, low key aspect of life. Like nothing nothing was sexy. Nothing was nothing was being advertised toward any demographic. It was all very it was it was like a rich people.

So it was like out of our shop. Yeah. Yeah. Or it was. Yeah. Or is aspirational. Like the solely commercial was like the lady diving into the pool. You'll never be here by bandha so. Right. I love that commercial. Anyway, so this is kind of about the time where the 24 hour news cycle began to take off. And then I think that's another reason why I was kind of went, oh, this would be good to talk about now.

Yeah, because now we are in this world where we're so used to it and we're so used to just getting constant information and kind of being left to the mercy of the twenty four hour news cycle, whether or not we're we're choosing to participate. Biraj Yeah.

Well, you know, but I was going to say this because at the end of the episode, before the live show that we posted two weeks ago, I did say something about the news is trying to scare you. And there was a couple reporters at me like they were upset about it, which it was like what I meant was the people who decide what goes on the news, because I was absolutely wrong to say that in terms of how many journalists are out there, you know, risking it all to tell important stories and get the facts and and also especially these days, there's so many feel good stories and stories about people caring about each other and connecting with each other.

So I did misspeak and I kind of used the language of the people who want to attack the media, and I should have thought that through better. So I do apologize. Yeah, but I. I more meant the people who decide what we ingest as news, which is not it goes way above all the people who are trying to report the news and keep us all in.

It's the shareholders that decide what it's the six billionaires that run a good article.

So excuse me.

I'm scared. Elvis. Yes. We like your boyfriend.

We, um, we obviously we wouldn't have a podcast if it weren't for these incredible journalists who do so much insane, wonderful work that we then, you know, regurgitate, condense and regurgitate. And you are so grateful for that. And in my wildest dreams, I would be a journalist.

I mean, truly. And yeah, true crime journalist, true crime writers like. Yes, we would not be here without them. So my apologies to anyone that was offended. And that's why we up top before our stories give credits, because we know it's so important. It's entirely so this.

The story I'm about to tell you, I was going to tell you the version that I kind of experienced, and then I read Lisa Balcones article, which was kind of about the full experience, not just what happened directly after the rescue, but then the effect that had and the effect the fame had and the effect the fact that the world could see this, the world could see what happened in Midland, Texas, this tiny little town like I mean, it's an at a time where it hadn't really happened that much.

So this was one of the first times that happened. It's really fascinating. So anyway, so it is October 14th. Nineteen eighty seven. I'm 17. My eyebrows are flourishing in a way.

It looks like two huge black caterpillars have crawled onto my forehead and made a home for 17 year old Karen.

What I wouldn't give it is like hanging out just like carpool somewhere with her, just have it.

And she would have done it if you had in California coolers in the backseat, she would be down to clown big hoop earrings, California coolers, nineteen eighty seven. Amazing. So but now we're in Midland, Texas. We're not a Petaluma, California. We're in Midland, Texas. And it's the morning of October 14th. Nineteen eighty seven and eighteen year old Reba. Her nickname is Sissy McClure. She's at her sister Jamie's house at three three oh nine Tanner Drive in Midland.

And Jamie has a daycare that she runs out of her home. And so Cissy's there with like five kids, one of whom is her 18 month old daughter, Jessica. So they're out there. All the kids are out in the backyard and Cissy's out there with them playing. And then the phone rang. So she runs inside to grab it. And while she's inside on the phone, she hears all the kids scream. So she runs back outside and all the kids are standing around a pipe that is three inches coming, three inches up out of the ground and only eight inches in diameter.

And her 18 month old daughter has fallen down this pipe. It's a mother's worst nightmare and she's standing in it it like and freaking out, of course, like she can hear her door. I believe she can hear her daughter crying. Oh, I will also say that there's a TV movie that was made in, I believe, nineteen ninety, starring Patty Duke and Beau Bridges.

It's called Everybody's Baby that just come so in that the mother hears her crying. But I don't know if that's that's just what happened in the TV movie. OK, how do I just we don't know how deep it is yet.

We'll find out the. Well yeah we we you will eventually got to watch. OK, so she of course runs back in, calls the police. They're there in three minutes and basically they, they come to find out that this pipe is basically leading down to an abandoned well. So it's very deep just so you know. Yeah. So the first police officer on the scene is. Thirty two year old Bobbie Jo Hull. B.J. is his nickname Bobby Joe.

But Lamido, everybody got a nickname in Midland. Bobby Joe Hill comes to the front door.

Sissy gets there. She is, of course, out of her mind. She just keeps saying over and over, I can't let my baby die. I got to get her out.

So Officer Hall assures Cissy that they're going to save Jessica. He tries to look down this shaft to see her, but it's too dark. He can't see anything. He calls out her name a few times. There's no response at first. Then he can hear faint crying so they know she's alive.

My paramedics show up at the same time as the police. So the paramedics are back there with them. They start pumping oxygen down into the opening. OK, as more first responders arrive on the scene, someone comes up with the idea to lower a microphone that's attached to a flashlight down into the shaft so they can hear her. So they're calling out to her. They wait to hear her respond. Then she they they hear her make sounds back and they can figure out from the length of the microphone that she's twenty two feet down this.

Well, fuck. Yeah. Way the fuck underground. Yeah. So after that they a little while after that they figure out a way to lower a video camera down into the well so they can see how she's down there because they don't understand and essentially they've lowered down. They get this kind of side view and she has fallen down. So it's in the diameter is eight inch eight inches of this pipe. How big is that? What's that like?

Eight inches is less than a foot. So it's like twelve inches is a foot like that. Yeah. It's like it's basically only it's tiny, like it's a big huge pipe but tiny.

No, there's no wriggle room for her at all.

Not at all. And in fact what. They realized when the video goes down there is that she's stuck with her right leg up and pinned to the wall and her left leg down. So she's kind of in the splits a little bit. Yes, I know.

So the Midland Fire and police departments, they work together. They come up with this plan and they're like, we have to dig a second shaft next to this well and then tunnel across and then get in access and get her out that way. OK, so the city of Midland gets a backhoe over there. They tear down the neighbor's fences. And this is a funny thing, too. So it's it's a very this neighborhood is very kind of like lower middle class, like the houses, the houses all look like my old house.

It's just like a basic two bedroom house. Yeah.

I mean, like like all these houses are little square little houses.

They went up in the 70s and they're in they. Yeah, yeah. And they're like with five foot fences in the backyard. So if you stood in your backyard you could see into your neighbor's backyard like, hey, what's up. It's not like a big tall eight foot fences is like that. So but they're like they have to come in and like, knock people's fences down, get this backhoe in there. They start to dig down two or three feet.

And then they hit basically bedrock like really hard rock and they realize that they're going to need something with more power. It's not a backhoe isn't going to do it, so they break it. Luckily, they're in Midland, Texas, which was like an oil town big time. So there's all kinds of like, you know, drilling for oil type places.

But, you know, everyone knows what we mean. California place, you know, they're everywhere and all the drill, like all.

All they have. Yeah.

All this heavy equipment is around town. As of that, Texans know what we're talking about.

They know and they relate. And hey, what's up, Texas? You've always supported us. Thank you. OK, so they bring in what's called a rat hole rig, which they usually use to drill holes to sink telephone poles. OK, so even even using heavy machinery, it's takes hours. And basically, as the hours pass, this backyard is starting to fill up with firemen, policemen, paramedics, volunteers, people who are hearing there's a little girl trapped and people saying, OK, well, I have this rig and I used to work at this, you know, like all these people that know no drilling and they are showing up to help.

So the whole backyard is starting to fill up with people.

And one of those people is thirty six year old police detective Andy Glasscock. And he's actually going to spend the next 72 hours essentially laying on his belly on the ground next to this opening, calling down to Jessica and getting her to respond to him to make sure that she is still alive.

He's like the he's like the hostage negotiator. But but in a positive, but in a sweet way. Yes.

He's the baby baby hostage. And the hostage taker is the well, the baby down the well whisperer.

So he's a dad himself. So he's saying that like he's calling down, making her say stuff back to him. And so he's he said after a while he could tell what her mood was so she would switch between angry huffs or pained whimpers or cooing. And they could she would answer eighty percent of the time. But in the twenty percent when she wouldn't respond, of course, everyone would get super nervous. Then they would say, oh, maybe she's sleeping or she's just really exhausted.

And then Andy would go yell down the pipe, what does a kitten go, how does a kitten go? And then they'd hear me out.

And so I said, Oh, and at one point, kids can't not respond to what does whatever go. Yes, they're trained by 18 months. All American children are trying to tell you what every animal, what every sound, every animal likes.

At one point there, they pause in the drilling and it's really quiet.

And then they can all because the microphones down there, they can all hear her singing Winnie the Pooh, Winnie the Pooh to herself.

She's comforting herself. She's comforting herself. And I'm editorializing here. But I imagine all those big, strong Texan men lost their shit. Absolutely. And in a very strong, manly Texan way, cried or brushed a single cheering and then then got mad and demanded that someone bring them coffee with awesome stuff.

OK, so now October 14th, nineteen eighty seven is actually a very big news day.

So a U.S. flag tanker is hit by a missile in Kuwait. First Lady Nancy Reagan is actually hospitalized for breast cancer. And the Dow Jones drops more than one hundred points that day. But none of those stories capture America's attention the way baby Jessica being stuck in the well does. And that's mainly due to the fact that CNN is covering it nonstop. Yeah, I said this already a little bit beforehand, but. It had been running for seven years at that point, but this is only the second time they or any station covered a story live around the clock, the first one was a year earlier when the space shuttle Challenger exploded.

And this story was just as big. But in this way of that, it still had an inkling of hope. So CNN has reporters live on the scene almost immediately and they keep their cameras like rolling on this backyard for this rescue mission nonstop the entire time. And everyone is glued to the TV. Millions and millions and millions of Americans, seven year old Georgia was back and watching her.

17 year old Karen was drinking in a field, but her heart was with the family.

No ice at all. So other news networks pick up the story and this backyard becomes it's a media frenzy. So when, as reporters show up, neighbors are letting news cameramen like because first of all, the backyard fills up entirely that Jamie's backyard fills up, then the neighbors are letting news cameramen into their backyards that are surrounding backyard and they're sitting on ladders in neighbors backyards with their cameras so they can get the shot above everything else. And then that becomes kind of the surrounding outline.

And it's so and that those spots are like coveted new spots, because those are all the people that have the shot, you know what I mean?

So it's and it's like ringing it. So all these guys are sitting up and then they need somebody to go down and like, hold the ladder. It was it was all like jostling for space. It was like a really big deal. Midland's local TV station, cammed TV. They start getting calls from all around the world for people asking for updates on Jessica's rescue mission. So the places that didn't have CNN or couldn't do it, people are just calling in like you're hearing about it.

OK, so it takes this the rescue team six hours to dig the first parallel shaft. Now it's nighttime, it's getting dark. The whole world is on the edge of their seats. And everyone is everyone is just scared to death. Will they get to her? Yeah.

And do we know who coined Baby Jessica? It just kind of became the name of. I think it just became it.

I'm I don't know. I didn't find anything that said that. But it was me.

I take credit for it, but my first and James and then turned to her friend and said, I'm calling her baby.

She's my baby. Suddenly I'm a Texan accent for no reason. And also it's not really Texan. OK, so here's what I love.

The Midland Police chief and the Midland Fire chief both know they don't have enough experience for a rescue. That's this this important and this, you know, complicated, delicate and complicated.

So they reach out to a man named David Liley, who's a special investigator with the U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration in New Mexico. He's originally from West Virginia and he grew up in a family of miners. So he has extensive experience and knowledge in underground recovery.

Well, so they fly David Lily out to Midland and basically interview him on the spot and immediately realize he is he knows his stuff. He's the guy and said it. And now David Lily is in charge of this rescue operation. So by the time he gets there, the this parallel shaft has been dug. Twenty nine feet deep down, it's it's 30 inches wide. So and they're actually starting to dig a horizontal tunnel across to where they know Jessica is stuck.

Yeah, but then David realizes there's a problem with the tunnels trajectory, because if they they've they've made it. So they're aiming right. For where she is. But that would mean they would have to break the wall in on her. Right. And so he's like, no, no, no, we have to dig down even further and then and then tunnel across and up.

So he reroute them. So basically the tunnel will connect two feet below where Jessica is stuck. OK, so he also notices the dig team is using weak drill bits, which makes them have to stop and sharpen over and over. And it takes up way too much time. So he gets them built drill bits made of tungsten carbide and they drill for longer and so they don't have to stop or do anything. And he would later explain his strategy, saying, quote, Our strategy was that we would drill a series of holes in a square about twenty four inches across and eighteen inches down, and the holes would be no more than two inches apart.

And then we would take a forty five pound jackhammer also with a tungsten bit and hold it there to knock out the rock.

And we were going about an inch and. It was terribly hard rock and it was slow going because you had to lie on down on your stomach holding a forty five pound jackhammer in front of you.

And then he says, But I've never seen more dedicated people. That quotes from people, Mag.

So the next day is October 15th, and the team finally reaches the wall of the well. But the the rock around the well is even harder. So in order to drill through that, they have to use a high pressure water jet cutting.

But finally they do break through. But the entry way they make is really small. There's a local roofing contractor named Ron Short and he comes to volunteer to help because he was born without collarbones.

And so he can basically control over his shoulders and basically fit into cramped spaces.

Yes. So he's there. I mean, this is what the people of this spot in Midland. But all around, people show up and they're just like there's a in this in Lisa Billikens article that she says there's a contortionist that shows up from Dallas is like, what can I do? I got like people are just like we want to we want to help.

But they don't know how badly baby Jessica's hurt. And they know that moving her could potentially make it worse. So they finally decide that a midlane firefighter with paramedic training named Robert O'Donnell is should be the one that goes down into this shaft. So this is actually going to be a full quote from Lisa Balcones article, Death on the CNN Curve. Quote, At noon on the third day, the driller stopped, the reporters clung to their ladders and everybody watched as O'Donnell, with a mining light strapped to his head, was lowered by a cable harness down the shaft.

He was chosen because he was tall and thin, six feet, one hundred and forty five pounds. He didn't mention he was also claustrophobic. He laid down on his back and wriggled headfirst through the cross tunnel with his arms out in front of him. The air was wet and sticky, and within moments he was bathed in sweat. It was like trying to slither through a tightly wrapped sleeping bag. He would tell reporters later.

Can you imagine?

Nonwar, he inch to the end of the tunnel until he could look up at the shaft that held Jessica.

Only the first few feet were lined with the pipe that protruded up into the yard.

The rest was raw rock wall. One of Jessica's feet was dangling down toward Robert, but the other was out of sight, wedged near her head. So she was almost in split. And and this is his quote, Jussie, which is his the parents nickname for Jessica.

Jussie, I'm here to help you like my correct.

Sorry, he he asked her to move her leg and she did satisfied that she probably had no overwhelming spinal injuries. He started to tug on her foot, but she didn't budge. She was wedged into tight and he did not have enough room to maneuver. He coerced. He prayed. He became resigned to the fact that he would have to leave so that the diggers could widen the tunnel. Oh, my God. He promised her he would come back.

Oh, good. So he has to. Yeah. So he has to go back through that tunnel. Yeah. That was so awful to go without her, without her. He comes up, he's really upset. There's some people there, doctors on the scene that are like we think he's too upset to go back in. But he insisted that he was fine. They got like Vaseline and they made it a little wider. They got Vaseline. And there was also just you know, it's really interesting.

I found this info graphic that showed now how narrow this crazy tunnel was at top and how it widened out and they put a balloon under her so that she wouldn't fall further down.

Oh, shit. Well, yeah. Yeah.

So, like, they came in, they put the balloon down there and then basically he went in, you know, it was widened out a little bit and and they just basically put a little Vaseline. He tugged on her, he pulled her and he got her and he pulled her back through the tunnel. So 10:00 at 10:00 p.m. on October 16th.

Nineteen eighty seven after fifty eight hours, two and a half days of being trapped, eight shells with 18 month old Jessica is pulled free by Robert O'Donnell and taken back across the tunnel to the parallel shaft where so at the bottom of the shaft, that parallel shot that they dug. Paramedic Steve Forbes is waiting there. He has a backboard, which is that thing they like when you're a car accident or whatever. He has a little one for a little baby.

He has a bunch of gauze. So he wraps her head. She's got big cut on her head and her arms and stuff wrong with her legs.

So he basically does real rudimentary kind of head wrap. He sticks her on this backboard and they get onto this like. Plank and the two, Forbes and baby Jessica are carried twenty nine feet up and out of the shaft, and when they get to the top and I swear to God, you all have to go and watch this. It's a 40 second clip on YouTube. And it was I was crying so hard. I was like, this is more than just this video, but it's so beautiful when they get to the top.

It's 10:00 at night. So it's all this, you know, it's nighttime, but then it's all these lights like klieg lights and they put up. Yeah.

And by this point, you've got the reporters on their ladders, but it's like it's like eight people.

It's mostly men.

It's mostly these rescue workers and these volunteers. And when they come up out of this, well, there is cheering and applause like you would. I mean, these are seasoned reporters. These are like paramedics and firemen, the scene, everything. And people are going nuts like that. Church bells across the town of Midland are ringing.

And Jessica, even though she's covered in dirt, she's clearly dazed. Her mom is right there trying to, you know, trying to get to her. She's alive.

And at this point, all three TV networks, all three TV networks, the kids, it's nineteen eighty seven break into their regular programming to announce that baby Jessica has been rescued, Dan Rather actually said. Live from Midland, Texas, Jessica McClure is up. She's alive. What a fighter.

Oh, so good. OK, so she's taken the baby. Jessica's taken to the hospital. Oh, and just in the video, just, you know, there's a paramedic basically Steve Forbes. So Robert O'Donnell is the one who got her out of the well handed to Steve Forbes. Steve Forbes is the one who secured her and brought her up out of the shaft. And then Forbes handed Jessica to paramedic Bill McQueen. And he's the one that you see walking her out very quickly out of that backyard into a waiting ambulance.

She's rushed to hospital. She is in the hospital for about over a month, about thirty six days now. She's got a pretty bad wound on her forehead. And because her foot was above her head the whole time, the loss of circulation, she actually got gangrene. And she had to they had to amputate one of her toes.

Don't know which. But other than that, she's OK, which is pretty amazing. Over the next few years, she has to have about six surgeries. But aside from a spread scar and the toe, she's she's totally fine and her hospital bills are paid. She all the doctors that worked on her donated their time.

And then her remaining hospital bills are paid by anonymous donors and the entire world begins to send gifts and toys and cakes and all this stuff to Midland, Texas, for baby Jessica. She is totally inundated. President Reagan and first lady, the first lady call the McClure's, tell them that they watched from Nancy's hospital room. She was supposed to go in for a biopsy and she said she wouldn't leave her hospital room until the baby came up. That's that's the quote from Nancy Reagan.

I spit on the ground of the name, but still.

But still, we're all human beings doing our Bashur.

So are we OK? I mean, are they will we were they did some sometimes they're parades for the rescuers.

And when Jessica's fully recovered now, the hospital, the McClure's guest on Live with Regis and yes, I remember they get to give their firsthand account of the story. Of course, baby Jessica is so charming and lively and everyone is in love with her. And of course, in nineteen eighty nine they make the ABC television movie Everybody's Baby, The Rescue of Jessica McClure, starring Patty Duke and Beau Bridges.

But of course, as with all things like this, with sudden and huge worldwide fame, there's a dark side.

The state of Texas files a negligence claim against Jessica's aunt, Jamie Moore, whose whose daycare center was a mine pipe in your fucking yard.

I know, but the city, it's but it's pretty much what they have to do when if something happens to a kid, they have to do it. And apparently the person at that department where those claims are filed was like those people have suffered enough. But Jamie Moore ended up closing her that daycare permanently. I mean, of course. So then the file, the charges were dropped. But both the pressure of world wide and small town fame eventually gets to Jessica's parents, Sissy and Chip McClure, when they take thirty thousand dollars of the money that is given because people end up having to open like a trust account, because people just keep giving money to baby Jessica.

So they take 30 grand and buy a three bedroom house on the edge of town, which is huge and way bigger than the house.

They already have 30 Grand Canyon. Thirty grand. The town gossip is like they're spending all of. Jessica's money people start to go crazy because it's jealousy and all kinds of stuff. There's this is an amazing quote from Lisa Filkins' article that it really warmed my heart.

We're not really you'll see, this is we were over at Denny's one day soon after it happened when she came in, says Maria Petronella, who lives two doors down from the house with the well and was out front with a garden hose on a recent June morning trying to resuscitate her baked, shriveled grass. There was a wait and she looked at the guy and says, just like that, Do you know who I am? I'm Jessica's mother. I said to her, if it wasn't for a whole lot of other people, you wouldn't be anybody's mother.

Oh, dear.

Oh, shit.

So this is the kind of fuckin small town, you know, pressure and like the behavior change, the status hierarchy, celebrity financial change, the celebrity aspect, it everything goes nuts.

Yeah. It seems like it never works out great.

Well, if everything changes overnight, I mean, how can it work out great.

Look how you saw us at Denny's.

We're about we're out of our minds, cutting in front of people left and right again, moon over Miami.

I got to get it before you. That's what makes it delicious. So citizenship Maclure end up getting a divorce in nineteen ninety. The pressure just gets to them. But worse than that, the fame and the pressure also affects the first responders who are there. So this is another big quote from Lisa. Vulcan's article from New York Times.

Quote, The attention heaped on the McLaws trickled down to the central players in the rescue. Andy Glasscock was seen in the Michael Jackson video Man in the Mirror.

That's right. A member included flashes of major news events.

Forbes and O'Donnel each received a wall full of citations and plaques. And O'Donnell was asked to serve as a judge for the GI Joe search for real American hero and attend the White House awards ceremony for that program.

Not only was he a guest when Oprah Winfrey brought her show to Midland, but he also sat next to her at the press conference beforehand. He was invited to speak at so many firefighter conventions around the country that he developed a slide presentation. Forbes and O'Donnell and their wives were flown to Los Angeles to appear on the television program, third degree, where a celebrity panel tries to guess what two seemingly unrelated individuals have in common. The panelists knew immediately who they were.

Wow, that's.

Yeah, that's famous. Yeah. A four foot by six foot plaque was hung on the wall of the Midland Center, a bronze rendition of the Pulitzer Prize winning photo. Oh, so there was a there was a news photographer from an Odessa newspaper who was one of the people up on one of those ladders. And when the baby got brought up, he snapped a photo that went on to win a Pulitzer. So, like big stuff was happening for all of these people around there.

OK, an area a few blocks away was renamed Volunteer Park at the actual site of the rescue. An iron plate was welded over the pipe with the inscription for Jessica, with love from all of us. In an emotional ceremony, the rescuers, including including O'Donnell, planted a red bud seedling surrounded by a ring of lavender chrysanthemum over the refilled parallel shaft. Sounds beautiful. Yeah. So then, of course, Hollywood comes calling and there's multiple offers for TV, for movies or TV movies.

So the rescuers and the volunteers become divided into two warring factions and they each accuse the other of only caring about the money while claiming that they're the ones who care about the story being dry, or they they did the most important work.

And so essentially, it's it's that first wave. No one's experienced any of this before.

And everybody it gets everyone wants in on it high on their own supply.

And so the one who seems to suffer the most from this fame and then it's a it inevitable sudden withdrawal was the fireman, Robert ODonnell, who first pulled Jessica out of the well. When the phone stopped ringing, he became depressed and listless. He then became addicted to painkillers. Eventually, his wife left him. He lost his job as a fireman. And then soon after the Oklahoma City bombing in April of nineteen ninety five, clearly suffering from PTSD, he drove down a lone ranch road and shot himself in his truck.

He left. He left a note that said no help from nobody but family.

Oh, just so tragic. And I didn't know anything about that part of the story until I read Lisa Balcones article. And please go read this article. It's mind blowing. She spent a lot of time with him before he died. How? He spent time in Midland, she tells the story from the inside of watching this town like go through this amazing, beautiful, miraculous event and then basically the fallout and how it affects people afterwards. It's really incredible.

Poverty is an ugly and ugly.

Apparently, when the he was watching the the rescuers go into, you know, the the Oklahoma bomb site.

And he said to I think by that time he was living with his mother, I mean, things were very dark for him. And he looked at his mother and said, those guys are going to need help. Yeah, like like just knowing and seeing like, oh, this is this is what happened to us on, like, an even bigger scale. Totally. But the upside and the kind of miraculous thing is baby Jessica herself turned out great.

So she goes on she graduates from Greenwood High School in 2004. She gets a job working in a daycare center and she's working there. She, one of her coworkers, introduces her to her brother who becomes her husband, and they get married in 2006. They have two kids, a little boy in twenty seven and a little girl in 2009. And then what's my favorite, favorite part of the story?

And so beautiful people never stop donating to Jet Baby Jessica's trust fund, and she wasn't allowed to access it until her twenty fifth birthday. And when she did it had eight hundred thousand dollars in it.

Are you fucking kidding me?

No, no. People from all over the world gave baby Jessica money for years and years and years.

Can you imagine. Can you fucking imagine so. So. And also like. Yeah it's like basically. Oh, my neighbor's waving. Hi.

Hey. That's the guy that told me I was beautiful. I we love you.

I love, I love him. OK, so then other than a small scar on her forehead and of course not having she only has nine toes but other than that Jessica doesn't remember falling. She doesn't remember in the well, she doesn't remember being rescued. She doesn't feel traumatized by it. She feels really lucky. And she says that the one amazing lesson that she learned from that whole experience, she's told this to Time magazine. If you look hard enough, there are so many good people in the world.

Right. And that is the story of the rescue of baby Jessica McClure care.

And now can I just here's a post script, OK? And this is real. And I've told a bunch of people this, so because at first I was like, I'm not going to tell this story on my podcast because then someone's going to steal my idea.

But all right. I think this is I think I wrote this document. I would say two thousand nine, OK? And it was this is something you wrote. This is something. OK, so this is this idea I got. I think it was like I was probably unemployed, kind of just, you know, and I started thinking about the story because of how amazing it was and how big it was at the time.

So I started I wrote up a document because I wanted to write a sitcom called Oh Well, about adult baby Jessica being a total monster.

OK, so here's the idea. And this was I knew nothing about real baby Jessica. So real baby Jessica.

If you hear this fictionalized, I love that you're normal. Cool.

And you have eight hundred thousand dollars, everything about it. But my idea was, oh, because I think I heard this, I heard like in people or time or whatever, that she had this huge trust fund.

And in my mind it was like it's seven million dollars or whatever. So here's my document is a sitcom called Oh Well, and it takes place in Midland, Texas. Baby Jessica is now grown up and lives in a mansion built over the well she fell into when she was 18 months old. A trust was set up that day that the public made donations into, which has resulted in her living and behaving like a millionaire. She loves horses. Everyone still calls her the baby.

Her mansion is built over the well and she talks into it like a friend at night. She doesn't know it all. Butler, a scrounges family. The town worships her. She has flights of fancy from the trauma she suffered as a baby. So animals and creatures come to visit her from time to time. But she first met. Well, she hallucinated them down in the well. Oh my God. She's treated like a holy relic in the town.

People come from all over to see her and she's constantly being asked to do talk shows and parades. And she's horribly jealous of any other child in peril on the news.

So let's get that made. This is this is going to be my next big project. It's called. Oh, well, it is not based on fact, but I love the idea of the of like someone like this.

You're just going to take it, you're just going to be a rescued baby and then be like now you're all my servants for the rest of your life. I hate that other famous baby. How dare that baby be rescued? I'm I'm the resident baby.

No, but she's like thirty nine. All right.

That's my story. That's. Great job. That was so awesome. I love that you did that. What a great idea.

I like the disaster story element of it, but it's a happy ending.

Well, and it's like there's this tragic element to it that I think it's that, again, that kind of thing. No one talks about stuff like that. So it's like we all know the Baby Jessica story and we all, like a lot of us, read about like the trust fund where it's like that's kind of beautiful, but the Robert O'Donnells role that he played and then the way like, what a wonderful thing and how much it meant to him, obviously.

But then the way the fame and the kind of like being in that spotlight and how it can affect you if you are, you know, of a certain makeup or just like obviously no one in that town thought anything like that was going to happen now.

And they weren't prepared for it and they didn't get the attention they needed after that said. You can tell me a story, I'll tell you a story, it's a little bit legendary, like yours.

Yeah, this is the deaths of Setton Nancy no Jew Thomas all the times have done shows in New York and neither of us thought to do this.

It's crazy.

Me, my friend Laura Milligan, when we used to get drunk in the 90s, I think it was with Laura.

I think we said.

Doing that, it's the best that I remember the movie came out and said Nancy came out in 1986 and I remember I must have seen it, you know, in the 90s at some point being like, this is the most romantic story ever. And now I'm setting it up as an adult film like this is fucked up. It's so depressing.

I remember hearing the quote where he was Sid Vicious said, like, sex is boring and stupid. And I was like, oh, no, my perverted.

I think it's great. I think it's great and exciting. No, no, you're fine. You're not the problem here. I'm not on heroin.

That's it. I think that's the key is the finish the sentence. Sex is boring and stupid when you're on heroin. Right. So I got information from a website called History Collection, People magazine, Mental Floss Rollingstone, a website, the website Independent. And there's so there's two articles on The Independent. One is written by Joe Summer Ladd. And the other one, I swear, I looked so hard and could not find who wrote it, but it was from like 93.

So maybe they just didn't have it, but it might have been just collateral. Now, a Daily Beast article, there's a documentary called Who Killed Nancy? And then also Wikipedia. Karen ready? Yes. OK, the Sex Pistols. As you know, there were an English punk rock band. They formed in London in nineteen seventy five and they were responsible for initiating the punk movement in the U.K. It was already going on in New York and the Sex Pistols were like the main thing going on in London.

And they're regarded as one of the most influential bands in the history of punk and music, popular music. The group originally consisted of John Lighton, a.k.a. Johnny Rotten. He was singing, Steve Jones was on guitar, Paul Cooke on drums, and Glen Matlock was the bassist. But in early 1977, Glen Matlock was kicked out of the band or he decided to leave because his mom hated how anti crown the band was and like forced him to quit, which is really terrible.

And so he was the name of all that's royal. Get out of that band out there. You know, and just really quick, can we say if you haven't heard Jones's jukebox, it's one of the best radio shows. Steve Jones has this radio show that is has been driving in traffic in Los Angeles over the years. I've lived here, saved my life. It's influential. It's so good. Amazing.

So Glen quit the band for Mom and was replaced by Simon John Ritchie, a.k.a. Sid Vicious, even though Sid had no idea how to play bass. OK, I really love that.

Yeah, I really love and respect the fact that he would get on stage and just kind of not know what you know. It's great. It's so rock. Yeah, it is. It doesn't matter. Yeah. So Simon John Ritchie, who I'm going to call Sid Vicious from now on because it's easier, was born on May 10th. Nineteen. Oh that's not your birthday is eleven. That's right. Nineteen fifty seven in England. And his father flakes out on his mom, her name is Ann and then so she remarries the stepfather six months after their marriage.

He dies of cancer.

No. How sad is that. Like you've got the second chance and that happens. So Sid Vicious, his mom raises him alone in East London and by all accounts, sit Sid's mother and was fucking very problematic. She was heavily involved in drugs as both a user and a trafficker. And when Sid was a toddler, his mom used him as a drug mule. She'd stuff his clothes with packages of hash and smuggle them from Spain to England. So, lady, not a good start.

Not at all.

That's really not Marion Cunningham.

I know my mom was bad. I know your mom's amazing. She killed it. Sex Pistols singer Johnny Rotten said that once he was hanging out at Sid's house on Sid's birthday when they were like friends as young teens and and Sid's mom gave him said a bag of heroin as a birthday present. And I think even for punk rockers and Johnny Rotten was like, what the fuck? And Sid was like, oh, she means well, she just knows that heroin relaxes me.

So it's off. God damn. Yeah, that's awful. It's so not fair. So Sid had first met Johnny Rotten in nineteen seventy three. There were both students at it, this technical college in their later teens and they had been hanging out in the in this little burgeoning punk scene that was actually pretty small in London and it originated in this little clothing shop called Sex that was run by Vivienne Westwood.

Yeah, I know that.

And there's there's an amazing documentary about Vivienne Westwood. If you haven't seen it. It is. I have to watch it. I look up the title. It's amazing. She's so she just she did it in the face of everyone going, this is disgusting. And she would win these awards.

And everyone in the fashion industry would be mad because they'd all they all wanted everything to look like those weird nyos plain suits. And she was up the. Yeah, yeah, exactly, and she was like, how about a kilt and a tank top? Yeah. So truly, I mean, the fact that they named their clothing store sex just shows you like. Oh, cool. So it was Vivienne Westwood, along with Malcolm McLaren, who becomes a Sex Pistols manager.

And the clothing store specializes in clothing that defined the look of the punk movement.

So Johnny Rotten nicknames this kid Simon. His friend nicknames him Sid Vicious because Johnny Rotten had a hamster named, said that he named after Syd Barrett, the founder of Pink Floyd. And then one day the hamster bit Sid, and they yelled about him being vicious.

And so now his name is Sid Vicious legend died of an innocent. Yeah. Innocent beginnings. Right. And actually I didn't know this, but Sid Vicious was originally a drummer and he was the original drummer for Suzzy and the Banshees. Really? Yeah. So we actually could play an instrument.

It just wasn't the bass and even more punk. Yeah. It turns out they're not interchangeable. So when the Sex Pistols needed a bass player, Johnny Rotten, like didn't care that he couldn't play. He brought in his friend Sid Vicious in February of 1977. And Sid Vicious never really learns to play. But he had been a big fan of the Sex Pistols. He had been at every show. And he I think what mattered more for them was that great punk rock fucking style with the spiked black hair, leather jacket.

He wore a shirt that had a swastika on it as a and he said it was like a political statement as a normalizing the swastika. But, you know, it's England. And like two decades past the bombing of your fucking town. No, I did not know.

So does it matter what your intention was, matter what your intention was? It matters what the impact exactly as we've all heard.

Right. So in there on their debut album and only album, Never Mind the Bollocks, here's the Sex Pistols.

Sid Vicious for the recording was in the hospital with hepatitis. So he was only on one track, one song where he plays bass. But even that track has to be dubbed over by Steve Jones. So despite the success of Never Mind the Bollocks, which is a great album, I bollocks. Bollocks, is it is it bollocks? Is it an overnight? No.

If you feel like you're my teacher, I just, I'm just, I'm clocking, you know, I like it.

I'm going to be punk and mispronounce things. Mom, it's bollocks bollocks. But despite the success of Never Mind the Bollocks, the band never records another album and they break up after two and a half years of being a band, which is a fact that many people blame on CID's new girlfriend, Nancy Spungen. Mm hmm.

Let's talk about Nancy said that it's good. So Nancy Spungen is born in nineteen fifty eight and they an upper middle class Jewish family, which I didn't know in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. As a young girl, Nancy is super smart, but her mom describes her as a problem child. She has a lot of issues. She was born with the umbilical cord wrapped around her neck, which may have caused some injuries.

She throws violent tantrums as a kid. She bullies her siblings. She threatens her babysitter with a pair of scissors, and she even attacks a psychiatrist who is trying to treat her. So she's just that really problematic. She's diagnosed with schizophrenia in her teens, though I don't know how accurate that is. That must be like the early seventies when those diagnosis says and I don't know who diagnosed her, it was her, you know, an actual psychiatrist or her mom just thought that.

So whatever. But she starts using drugs, as a lot of us do, and graduates early from boarding school at sixteen. And she moved out on her own and by seventeen is in New York City. She arrives right as the New York punk scene is blowing up and she makes money with part time sex work.

So she's totally enamored with the punk scene and all the hot dudes and the bands and hell, yeah, yeah. You're seventeen. And she eventually becomes known as a groupie and she follows bands like the New York Dolls and the Ramones. And it seems like she's just hanging out in that Big Sevgi.

They're so cool. Yeah.

I mean, like just the definition of cool. Exactly. Like she's there, she's in it. But she, I mean she is regarded as a loud and obnoxious and unlikable, which I'd like to say is kind of the most punk rock thing. You can fucking do it really, you know.

So like yeah I feel like it's either that people have a problem with that means you must be really over the top or maybe they're just not punk rock enough.

But she's rejected by other groupies and accepted by the musicians, mainly for her ability to get heroin and supply heroin to them.

So she follows the punk band Johnny Thunders and the Heartbreakers. They go to London for their tour. They're in 1977, but they tell her to get lost. I think their manager was like, this chick is problematic. She like just anyone she's around, becomes a fucking heroin addict. Yeah. Which is like anything they can do that on their own. And she ends up meeting the Sex Pistols instead. So when 19 year old Sid Vicious, an eight year old Nancy Spungen me, they're inseparable right away.

They move in together really quickly. And in a Daily Beast article, Malcolm McLaren writes that Nancy teaches Sid all about, quote, sex and drugs and the lifestyle of a New York rocker. And some people think that Sid lost his virginity to Nancy, actually. Oh, yeah. Because he wasn't he liked heroin more than sex. So, you know, sex is stupid and boring.

Oh, yeah. A whole lot of people blame Nancy for STDs, heroin addiction. But it seemed like his mom might be the bigger issue. And he was fine before Nancy came along with that.

It was getting ready for his birthday. Yeah, it's her fault.

But I guess like heroin at that time in the London scene wasn't big. And everyone blames Nancy who are bringing it over to them, like introducing it to that scene. Wow. I know. So in the documentary, Who Killed Nancy, everyone talks about how Sid was, like, so smart and sweet and a goofy kid with a great sense of humor and, like, fun to be around. And he was this young, impressionable dude. But then they go on to tell these fucking stories about him and what an awful violent person he was.

But like they tell it lovingly, but he actually tortured and killed cats. There's multiple stories of him doing that. He would go out looking for fights and go watch shows like looking for fights. He used his belt buckle or a bike chain as a weapon. After he'd pick a fight with someone at one show, he threw a bottle at a girl and permanently blinded her in one eye. Jesus Christ. There are stories of him vomiting on groupies and getting into fights at shows and like swinging and swinging his base that like the audience, trying to hit them on purpose.

Fuck, he's like, Mommy, Mommy, Daddy, Mommy, please love mommy, mommy. Yeah. So Jahnavi, of all those things, purposely throwing up on people is so awful.

I'd rather take a belt buckle to the chicks and have some puke on me.

There's a story I tell you that like I think it was Joey Ramone went into a bathroom in London to shoot up with Sid Vicious and there was no water to mix the heroin with. And so the syringe and in a fucking toilet bowl full of puke, no use that like.

Absolutely was just like one upping everyone who was already trying to one up society. Yeah.

Luckily he never met Ozzy like those behind the music stores were.

Ozzy was snorting lines of amps and stuff, but he was friends of Lemmy, which is pretty cool.

That is actually rad. So Johnny Rotten all replumbing all rip. Johnny Rotten's dad actually witnessed some of this insanity and stated that he felt that they were due to vicious, his insatiable need for attention. Never met by his mother because she was a drug addict. He said of Sid Vicious, quote, If he was sitting here and no one was taking any notice of him, he'd cut his hand or something to attract attention. You'd have to take your mind off everything else and look at him.

And he was like he did himself a lot like pretty severely and just always seemed to like be the center of attention. He sounds like a real fucking asshole and not a pleasant person at all, even though everyone's saying how lovely he is. And I think this whole Nancy corrected him thing is not legit at all.

Not saying she's a great person.

Well, it's like he's he's still an adult. And that is his childhood is he's responsible for himself. Exactly. You know, it's very convenient. I mean, I know especially if that, you know, the portrayal of her is accurate, which I it seems like it is. Yeah. Chloe, what's her name. Well, yes, Chloe. I love her so much. Oh, good.

In that role. But that, you know, the voice and the whole thing where she didn't give a fuck about any, she was like she was the real deal. So I think it's very easy. Like when a woman like that comes along a difficult woman, it's like that.

That's your scapegoat, right, everybody?

Well, it's like she's part of that. Yoko Ono and Courtney Love and her have like, you ruined it. And it's like they kind of ruined it themselves. They ruined it. Right. Or they were in there, those dudes.

And actually then you also factor in the many instances of domestic violence against Nancy by said he beat her and left her with a broken nose and a torn ear, among other injuries. I think it was Malcolm McLaren that said, quote, Syd chose Nancy every bit as much as she chose him. And in respect of their dangerous, destructive co-dependency, he and Nancy were ideally suited. So, you know, they kind of were perfect together in that way.

Yeah. And everyone said that they thought that she. Filled a void and he filled the void in her that the other one needed. Nancy took care of Sid in a lot of ways. And actually, if there's old video footage, if you go on YouTube and put in sit and Nancy interview, there's that interview from them in a bed where she's just trying to get Sid to fuckin wake up. He's nodding off and talking to the like, can I make you coffee?

Do you need coffee?

You know, right over the next few months, as the Sex Pistols become huge and they're all over the tabloids for their insane behavior in this antique crown, songs, Sid and Nancy are also like famous and are all over the press for their heroin fueled antics in the press. Labels Spungen as nauseating, Nancy.

They love to do those stupid nicknames. They really do, because they really do public displays, displays of verbal abuse and the shocking behavior. And he does everything she wants without question. Once he she said to him, push that groupie down the stairs and he pushed her down the stairs. She's so things are going like devil children.

That's right. And the other members of the Sex Pistols fucking hate Nancy so much that they ban her from their upcoming nineteen seventy eight US tour. And in fact, their manager had already tried to get Nancy kidnapped and sent back to New York City unsuccessfully.

Yeah, their tour manager told People magazine that Sid began to dislike everything except for heroin and Nancy. But there was already a rift growing in the band between the manager and Johnny Rotten.

So Sid Vicious, his behavior only made things worse. And it just seems like Nancy's presence and sad life sped up the demise of the band, but wasn't the catalyst. It doesn't seem like Johnny Rotten was a fucking peach to work with either.

Not at all. But at least he was trying to have a real band and take the success they were earning with their the whole, you know, directive.

It was a great idea and it was cool. And it was like and then it's just like someone that's just like hell bent on ruining, just tripping and falling over the entire thing.

Yeah. Just making a mess. Just ruining it. So the Sex Pistols break up after their last US performance in San Francisco in January. Seventy eight. And then, Nancy, go to New York City and move into the historic Hotel Chelsea in New York City. I said New York City.

It's known for how it's like a historic landmark. Now, I felt that it much that was good.

I felt it in my chest and I felt it in New York just to go through the wires, get by and look, I'm channeling punk rock.

Um, so, of course, the Hotel Chelsea is famous, you know, fucking Bob Dylan and Mark Twain and sound like everyone famous ever stayed there and said, Nancy, move into room one one hundred and register as Mr. and Mrs. John Simon Ritchie. So they continue their fucking crazy lifestyle, crazy drug abuse, partying, these raging arguments, domestic violence and all sorts of shady characters are coming in and out of their room.

And they are there for three months and it's just a chaotic time.

So at this one day together, twenty one months and on the night of October 11th, nineteen seventy eight, they throw a party. And when at the party, as any good boyfriend, the host of the party does, Sid takes at least 30 tunel tablets too and all tablets.

Never heard of it. It's a strong barbiturate and he takes 30 of them.

So he's attempting suicide at the party. He's just now he's just having a laugh.

OK, yeah. And it knocked him out obviously. So that sounds fun. And the following morning at seven thirty, the hotel guests start to report the sound of a woman groaning from room one hundred. And then at 10:00 a.m., Sid calls down to the reception and tells them that he needs help. And when staff gets up there, they find Nancy's lifeless body under the bathroom sink in the room and she has a single stab wound in her stomach.

And so at just 20 years old, Nancy Spungen is dead.

Twenty. They did all that. It's crazy.

I didn't realize they'd only been together for two years. Yeah, it's I always thought, like having watched the movie. Yeah. I thought it was years and years crazy.

So the staff at the hotel remember Sid being like he was days he was wandering the hall, he was wailing about how he had killed her. And during his initial interview he confesses and says, I did it because I'm a dirty dog. So he confesses, but he's arrested and charged with second degree murder. But once he's arrested, he can track retracts his confession, saying he was asleep at the time and he he woke up and found her dead.

And he said that maybe Nancy rolled over onto the knife when she was in bed and accidentally stabbed her. S no, unlikely, don't think so personally. No, no, no. Personal opinion, no.

So in the following days, Sitte is released on twenty five thousand dollars bail supplied by Virgin Records, which is the band's label, or it's his label at the time.

And a little while later, his bail is revoked after he assaults Patti Smith's brother, Todd Smith, with a broken Heineken bottle in a bar because he was hitting on this dude, Todd's girlfriend.

And he Enzo, the guy Todd, comes up and is like, please don't hit on my girlfriend or whatever. And he fucking hits him in the face of the bottle like slashes his face. So he's so Sid Vicious is sent to Rikers to go through detoxification program and get clean.

But unfortunately, that doesn't happen because while he's there, his mother and Beverly smuggles in her vagina drugs to said, Oh, lady, lady, lady, lady.

So Sid's released after fifty five days on ten thousand dollars bail. And he's and so then his mom and some friends want to throw him a Freedom Party a couple of days later.

Yeah. So on February 1st, nineteen seventy nine, Sid and his friends and mom are having a party at the Greenwich Village apartment of CID's new girlfriend Michelle and his mother and get some drugs for him for the evening. And Sid takes the drugs, but he thinks they're to the heroin, but he thinks it's too weak. So he asks another friend at the party to get him some more and his friend goes out and buys some heroin from people he's never bought heroin from before.

And so the heroin is 98 percent pure, which is not what you normally get on the street.

And it's way too pure for human consumption. But Sid takes it and his friend takes himself and almost overdoses and is like, be careful. This is really strong. But then when the party breaks up and his friend leaves him with Sid, with his mother and the heroin, and shortly after, it seems like Sid kind of sneaks some heroin and takes more. And in the morning his mother goes to wake him up and finds him dead from an overdose.

He is twenty one years old and it's just four months after Nancy's death.

Shit. I mean, yeah. Twenty one, twenty one and twenty also.

OK, go ahead. No, go ahead. It just how come he had a girlfriend immediately after.

I think they met at Rikers in like rehab or something. She's crying.

I met my first one alone. Real boyfriend and rehab but not for heroin thank God.

Well also I mean that's kind of a good place in some ways because I guess you're all sitting in a circle. Yeah. Being being super real and authentic. We did start doing meth together. So night, I guess it worked. But we said that the police closed the case on Nancy, on Nancy's death. And no further investigation is ever done. And over the years, people have debated about Nancy's murder and whether or not Sid actually killed her.

And there's all these fucking theories in my estimation. And I think that kind of show this in the movie, you know, he gets his high, he gets annoyed with her, he stabs her, he goes back to sleep. That's probably what happened.

But there is a possibility that he didn't kill her. And because the amount of drugs he was on, maybe he couldn't have broken up. And there's other suspects.

There's drug dealers like in and out of the room the night before. And the police did say that they had been robbed of fifteen hundred dollars. So but that could have happened anyway.

So, yeah, but I mean, and people hated her enough to have her kidnapped to get away from that. Right. I mean, like it's not like she was like beloved by all. Beloved by all. Exactly.

It's like God there must have been so many suspect.

That's right. But the police and the police discovered fingerprints belong to six different people who had criminal records, but they never interviewed any of them. And none of the visitors from the night before were ever interviewed. The murder weapon had also been wiped down and cleaned. Oh, and no blood or fingerprints were found on it.

So that's that's a weird one, right?

It sounds like the cops were like two junkies killed each year but killed another junkie. And it's like we're not doing the paperwork. Right.

But if yeah. If he had, like, in the middle of, you know, being passed out, stabbed her, I don't think he would have had the wherewithal to wipe out or maybe he did it right before he called the cops. Seems unlikely, but yeah.

No, no. I mean, and then if she had done it, which a lot of people think that they did, why would she how and why would she wipe it, wipe off the weapon that she stabbed her?

Oh, yeah, and it is true that she had done like a suicide attempt before just to get his attention, so it's not totally out of the realm of possibility. And then there's also people who think that they had a suicide pact together when after Sid's death, his mom found a handwritten note in Sid's leather jacket reading, We had a death pact and I have to keep my half of the bargain. Please bury me next to my baby, bury me in my leather jacket, jeans and motorcycle boots.

Goodbye. Wow. So maybe he overdosed on purpose, who knows?

And it's also possible that Nancy killed herself on accident because she was you know, she was also they were both also known to self mutilate. And so after finding that note and contacts Nancy's parents and asked, Sid could be buried next to Nancy. And they're like, hell no. First of all, she's being buried in a Jewish cemetery. And second of all, like we think he is part of the reason she's.

Of course, they were like, no, but and does climb over the fence of the cemetery and scatters some of Sid's ashes on Nancy's grave.

Oh, wow. Wow. What a mother. She did it.

She did it. She really did it. So the biopic said Nancy from 1986, direct, amazing movie, Amazing. Directed by Alex Cox, who did Repo Man.

Did you know that? Yeah, of course. I mean, yeah.

So it said it's played by Gary Oldman and Nancy's played by Chloe Webb and Z.

And also, of course, musician Courtney Love was 20, came out and she was like, this is the the role I fucking meant to play. Unfortunately, she didn't get the role. But she does play a smaller part as one of Nancy's friends.

Yeah, she's I mean, she's a standout, though. The thing about Courtney Love, I remember watching that movie and it's like, oh, no, what's happening here? Yeah.

Like, you can't take your eyes off. She never does anything half assed. No, no. She's the real deal. So Syd's mother and takes her own life in nineteen ninety six at sixty three years old. And The Guardian sums up the sit in Nancy's tragedy as Romeo and Juliet with syringes. And there is a poem that Sid wrote for Nancy that goes You My Little Baby Girl. And I knew all your fears, such joy to hold you in my arms and kiss away your tears.

But now you're gone. There's only pain and nothing I can do.

And I don't want to live this life if I can't live for you. So there might have been actual like real love there between the two of them. And finally, someone who understood the other. Yeah, but you can't add heroin into the mix. Yeah. I mean that's going to wreck it. Yeah. For sure. So music critic Lester Bangs, legendary after Nancy's death, said, quote, Sit in, Nancy, we're possibly two of the most pathologically tortured humans on the face of the earth, and that is the deaths of Sid Vicious and Nancy Spungen.

Wow.

Amazing. Great job. Thank you.

Said that everyone go accident.

Nancy, it's so good. Gary Oldman. Nancy, it's like Gary Oldman. Like breakout role, right? Yeah, he's so good.

He was in a he was in a really good movie right before I think before that it was British that was about a British playwright who was gay.

Now, I can't remember what it's called. It was so good.

I remember that. Yeah, I saw it today in one of the articles, but I can't remember it was your dog in the title. I can't remember. This is really good.

Very nineties in the movie incident, Nancy, Sid's mom gave Gary Oldman when she went, he went to talk to her, gave him the actual chain and lock that said where to where in the movies.

That's the real one there. Oh, wow.

Yeah. Oh yeah. OK, kind of cool. Yeah. God, that mom man.

What a yeah. She's the third most tortured soul on the planet. That's right. I mean pathologically whatever. Like God it's just so unhealthy.

It's so unhealthy and it's so like oh you didn't stand a chance. No little kid like you didn't have a shot at a normal life.

And you know what sucks is that the music I think that a lot of people who had really shitty childhoods, they do go into music and it is their escape. It is the it is the release. It's the thing that brings them somewhere else. Yeah. And he he had the opportunity.

Clearly he could play instruments. He had a musical like.

Yes. You know, talent and but but fucking heroin.

Heroin ruins everything there is really to like if he had gone to Rikers and actually tried to get sober, maybe his life would have taken a total different trajectory. And maybe Nancy's life if. If she had had a chance to go home and, you know, recover a little and get real psychiatric help and maybe her life could have been way different, I bet she would have been pretty fucking awesome.

Yeah, but the thing that makes it so dark is like he couldn't do that because his own mom was like sabotage. Exactly.

That sucks. Oh, I looked up. The Vivienne Westwood documentary is called Westwood Colen Punk Icon Activists from activist. It's from twenty eighteen.

It's really mind blowing because I my hilarious friend Luke loves Vivienne Westwood so much. And he basically made me watch that. And I didn't know I knew about her very tangentially and kind of like her cool style, but not details like she she really she was a driving force of the actual style of that like late 70s, which is such a huge part of it.

I can almost see that one wouldn't exist without the other in a way.

And they say, you know, like all those styles of like having safety pins or wearing like, you know, the clothes they wore, it was part of it was because of the the there was really bad socioeconomic it was like Thatcher's England at that time. And so they would have like the garbagemen would go on strike. And then so there was just garbage piled in the streets. So when the teenagers would walk from like their house to a club there and I can't remember this, if this might be an acid, Nancy, or it might be in a documentary about that time, they would just pick up garbage bags and put them on, you know what I mean?

Because it's just like garbage was everywhere. People were poor. There were strikes all the time. There's a lot of labor issues. There was like there was so much it was kind of a depression, a tension that was like very much like class class issues. And that's why, you know, that that whole thing of like God save the Queen and basically saying, fuck you, royals, it took off because it was like we're all down here in the muck and in literally in piles of garbage and you're in your in your tower like saying pay more taxes, you know, rough stuff.

All right, Karen, this time back in the race. Yes. I love it. All right. You want to go for sure. This starts fucking hurray. Hey, MFM fam. During the covid-19 quarantine, I've been feeling hopeless and helpless as I'm not an essential worker nor a health care worker. And I'm horrible with the needle and thread. I felt there was something more I could be doing to contribute to supporting our community during this time. My fucking hooray!

My boyfriend and I took to walking around our community with trash bags and my old wagon collecting litter from parks and roadsides. After just one weekend, we collected eight contractor trash bags filled to the brim. If I can't fight the fires directly, at least I can fight pollution. Thanks for all you do. Keep kill them the game and stay healthy for all our sake. Shall be in Bucks County, Pennsylvania.

That's awesome, Shelby.

That's fucking beautiful and important. It's important for your mental health and it's so cool that you found something to do, but you're helping your community and that's fucking beautiful.

It's really beautiful.

Psystar this one is from Arang. You lent something. OK, hashtag fucking right. My fucking hair is for the staff at Saint Mary's Hospital in Decatur, Illinois. I went into their E.R. late Tuesday night with intense stomach pain and ended up needing an emergency appendectomy.

Oh, all the time. So scary. Oh my God. Do to covid-19. My husband was not allowed to be with me and I had to go through the whole thing alone. Every single nurse, doctor and staff member was gentle, friendly and comforting. I had never had surgery before, so it was especially scary. Everything went well and I'm back home recovering.

Oh, thank God. I got. How terrifying. So terrifying. I'm so glad that went well.

Yeah. What a bummer to be like. I really don't want to go to the hospital. I have to go and have to go.

Yeah, OK. This is from blood splatter analyst and it's Anna is in all caps so I'm assuming this person's name is Anna. Hi. My fucking her is that down my street a little girl is always on her porch and every day she does something special for people walking by while she has she has her violin practice is out there, make signs, yells out funny jokes, etc.. She brings me joy every time I pass her. And she loves when I say something back to her.

Stay home and safe, but make sure you still interact with others somehow.

Anna, that's so cute. That is very cute. We Vince and I sit out front of our garage now and our lawn chairs and say hello to everyone walking by and silently judge them if they're not wearing masks. But, you know, so true, this is from science of myself, says my fucking hurray for the week.

I work at a domestic violence shelter in central Texas. And this week our staff received a. Delivery. It was from Bernie Brown White, and then then there's a smiley face emoji, a cookie emoji and a heart emoji.

How incredible. I didn't know this when I talked to Bernie Brown at the top of the show. I hadn't read this yet, but that's the whole story. Yeah. They received cookie delivery at their domestic violence shelter in central Texas, and it was from Brittney Brown.

Fuck yes, Bernie. I mean, just class act, just doing it right class. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah.

This one is from Ashley and. In OK, I'm a first time mom and my two month old baby girl cannot sleep for more than 15 minutes by herself alone in the bedroom, she has to be sleeping right next to me or my husband or one of us has to hold her. She will sleep four hours this way. But this morning after I fed her, I put her back down in the bedroom for a nap and she slept for all caps.

Two and a half hours away, my husband and I were able to make ourselves breakfast and he worked on his laptop while I enjoyed some me time with a cup of coffee and a few chapters of The Stranger beside me, Callea also.

I only peeked in on her once to make sure she was still breathing, which is a major progress, which is major progress, because I wanted to check in again like 80 more times, but I talked myself down baby steps, literally fucking her away from me and my baby girl, says DGM Ashley and Ashley.

And you know, my mom used to tell the story when she had my sister, her first baby, she would go in every 15 minutes with a mirror. Yeah, she wanted to make sure Laura was still breathing. I bet it's just terrifying. How could you not handle. OK, here's my last one. This is from Mushroom Beest.

My hashtag fucking era is that my mom, Linda, gave me a thumbs up yesterday. My mom had a stroke in February and it was the scariest day of ever experienced. She was totally healthy, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink.

And one Sunday morning she just had a stroke. She was paralyzed on her left side for a while and with intense physiotherapy, her movement is coming back. And we kept joking that when she could give me a thumbs up, we'd celebrate. Well, yesterday I came downstairs and she was sitting, grinning at me with her thumbs up.

Oh, she's the strongest woman I know. And she has just been so determined and focused in her recovery. So fucking Arae and thumbs up.

Yes. Oh, my God.

Crazy. The little things you focus on and that matter once. Once you know, once everything is real. Yeah.

When you get that perspective of like, listen, this is the thing that it gives us a lot of stress and a lot of panicky feelings. But there is this advantage to looking at life like that could happen to you or you could catch this terrible disease or something that this is not. We are lucky. Every moment that we have with our health is a gift. And we should treat ourselves like it's a gift and we should treat other people like it's a gift.

And we should all go out onto our symbolic porches with our symbolic violins and play them for other people and be nice to your neighbors and wave to people and like, get in the game you while you still can. It's important.

I love that. It's so true. It's so true. I really, really hope that we come out of this whenever we come out of it a little kinder.

Everyone is a little more easy on everyone else and a little kinder.

Well, I think already a lot of us and it's only been about two months really of starting to appreciate that. Like other human beings and the potential connection and the connections that we have and the things that we miss and like that, all those things like that, the screen doesn't give it to you and like the Internet does not give it to you. And you can only really get it from people in front of you. And and so, yeah, hopefully that's something that doesn't just immediately evaporate the second.

More like what?

It's over. I can go to a baseball game or whatever. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, thanks all of you for listening. Everyone is people say such nice things to us online about continuing to do this podcast. For me, it's a gift to get to what it what a miracle that this is the we get to do that and we have these people that care so much and listen and give a shit. I mean, like it's really nice.

Yeah. It's really, really, it's really a gift.

So thank you guys. Thank you. We're so incredibly lucky and grateful for you guys. Send your fucking around is just hashtag them and and we'll read them next week maybe. Yeah.

Big or small. Whatever, whatever's going on with you, it's, it's very it's, it's very good for your mental health to keep a gratitude list. And so try to try to do it and try to try to find those moments so that you can fucking hurry along with us. And in the meantime, stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Go. Elvis, you want a cookie? Yeah.