This is exactly right. This episode is brought to you by defending Jacob, a new Apple TV plus limited series based on the New York Times best seller. It's a suspenseful, character driven drama starring Chris Evans, Michelle Dockery and Jaden Martel.

Defending Jacob is available exclusively on Apple TV. Plus, open the Apple TV app and watch the first two episodes for free today. And we got a chance to talk to two of the show's stars, Michelle Dockery and Jaden Martel. So stick around to the end of the episode to hear that conversation. Goodbye.

Hello and welcome to my my favorite is this is this is Georgia, this is the delay there, the delay. We're still at home. That's Karen Kilgariff. That's Georgia. Hard start. Yes. We just pointed at each other through the computer screen. Oh, you should see us pointing a lot. I'm sorry. That's content that you have to pay extra for. We're not recording here. Wait, wait, wait.

You're doing. Oh, yeah. I'm selling all this on eBay. Did you not hear did you not hear about how I'm illegally selling everything from our show on eBay? I would have put makeup on. I know. Sorry. Sorry. It's more natural if you don't have it on. I have to say I do put on makeup just for us. And this Zoome only because it's like the one time. Yeah. Or two times a week where it's like well it's almost like a fun thing to do of like hey remember, remember makeup.

I appreciate it. And whenever someone wears makeup or like looks nice and I don't I'm like oh oh oh shoot. Oh shit. OK, Shiite. I just all my makeup is going to go bad. My fuckin foundation are starting to smell. I know. I know. I mean. Oh it's so awful. Also I think we've talked about this but I'm getting worse at doing makeup. The longer the longer it goes and the less practice I have.

Yeah. I mean it's all going out the fucking window. It's going, it's a little bit crazy.

All bets are off. And what are we trying to prove? I like the idea that if this is the new norm of entertainment is going to be just people at home on Zoome, then not wearing makeup could be the new norm of being on Zoome. It's like let's call it.

Yeah, that people are pretty unattractive there if they don't have like special effects helping their face and they're over twenty two, they're light and not great and everyone else can relax a little bit and feel better.

You know it's been a real I think hit to a lot of people's understanding of what they look like and what, you know, if they're attractive or not, is having to watch your little square of your face and what it looks like when you're talking.

Oh, Jim, I'm like, why am I doing that with my mouth all the time for real for you? And I also can't get you can't get rid of your own face, can you?

You can't. Well, you can change the view. So it's the gallery of you and everyone's the same size. Yeah. I don't want to see no I don't want to be in that gallery. I don't want either because you know what, I'm so self obsessed. The second my face is as big as your guys is. I'm like, but what's going on over here. Look at those paws. Did you see what I did with this eyebrow versus this eyebrow?

No, let me see. Well, this one just I kind of was I was very intense about this one. That one looks like it's asking a sexy question.

Hello.

What, flexing your pants up in your pants is Karen's. I can pick up one. Hello.

It's like it's like a naughty version of what's in your wallet.

Hey, you're the new spokesperson for Dog. Go for doctors. Yeah, but then this eyebrows a little bit more like, oh, you caught me at a bad time and you know, something bad is happening in the world. I have eyelid acne.

Can you see that? Oh, no. Yes, I do. It's like I wouldn't have noticed it.

Yeah. I think it's from laying on the couch for six hours in a row. Oh, God. Can I show you? I'm in bed right now. Look at my disgusting how gross my pillow cases. Oh yes. I just noticed this is one of those zit stickers attached to my pillowcase. Well, they haven't made those in twenty five years. It's like you have nothing but time to change your pillowcase.

That's all you can do is investigate these things and yet you don't do it. No, you don't. Look at the Berryman's that's that reminds me of my favorite Tom. Papà has the best joke. And he was like, did you ever look at your pillowcase? Go like it looks like a civil war bandage?

Yeah, it's better than that. Obviously. I just is better by laughing so loudly. So sorry to everyone at home. That's the that's the joke that I wish I wrote so bad. I think it's something about being a single man, you know, it's a single man when his pillow case looks like a civil war.

Yeah. Guys, girls just change it before you come over. We are just as disgusting. Speaking of I wanted it I wanted to go ahead and start this episode by congratulating all of the graduates. Oh, they're poor dad's poor grads. What a shitty. And you're going to have.

But yes, congratulations. Yeah, there's a lot of them and they've been tagging us with their graduation from home caps with, you know, stay out of the forest and stuff on it. Oh, congrats to all of. You guys you guys got situation, right? You really did. Well, not that fun. It's I will say this when I remember very distinctly graduating from high school. Oh, yes, I remember it. But you graduate.

I did.

But I do remember thinking as I was wearing, like, the cap and gown and walking down, I was just like, this feels like it should feel like some like more and and yeah, it doesn't feel like I barely did homework in high school.

I don't know how I graduated because I really half assed it the entire time. And they just had that feeling of like, oh, this is one of those landmark moments of my young life that again doesn't have that like John Hughes movie feeling. I kept thinking it would.

It's the first of many disappointments in your adult life, everyone. Yeah, so but welcome as join us. It's the class of twenty twenty gets it way bigger disappointment. But then because of that then they get like Obama coming in to be like we love you guys the most, whereas your teacher showing up to your house and she'll throw you cookies or went out there doing what are they doing.

I don't know. But it is I keep seeing the videos where it's like people being super proud that they graduated from high school, which is so beautiful and great. And then teachers coming up. And it is a thing, you know what it is? It's between the students and the teachers. They know what the accomplishment is. And so the fact that they don't get to kind of do that together, yeah, it really sucks. But then I think they're getting it a little bit more because of it.

Yeah, like a little extra like the kids to have like their birthdays around, like on Christmas and like their parents make a bigger deal of it. But yes, it's a bummer. Which one. Ashar early.

Just say it was last year. Like again, we're Jewish. It would have been Hanukkah. I'm not like big on Hanukkah every year. It's a different day. Every year.

He does it on purpose. He does it for the attention. There's no way his birthday keeps changing. And yet I told them there's no way. But they told me you're making a problem. My sister sent her student. They are kindergartener. So they just said to them, this is school. You just kind of bail out of school in March. Like, they don't know. But she sends them. She's been sending the mail so that they just have little aside from her videos that she where she reads them stories and she sent everybody some stickers in the mail and then basically saying, I miss you and, you know, like whatever.

And then she's sending me the pictures of them, the parents taking the pictures of when they open their mail and get their stickers and it's got to do the cutest.

Yes. I've just been sending my nephews expensive toys. Good. And I didn't think of, like didn't even cross my mind to do something like personal and kind. Yeah.

My friend Albertina, I walk to the mailbox today because I also never get my mail because I rarely get it. And I went to the mailbox today and pulled out a postcard from my friend Albertina, who was like, hey, I just wanted you to know in this strange time that I really care about you. You're my good friend. Also, I just bought one hundred postcards.

Oh, my God, that's awesome. That made me laugh so hard. Yeah, I think old fashioned mail. It's a great time to support the Postal Service anyway, but everybody loves getting mail.

Every book is now. The book club is out postcard sending and you can do it for everyone. No, we can't do it. It'll be anarchy. We are not quitting the book club. I am I I'm forcing myself to finish that goddamn book. I realized after I suggested my book two weeks ago by Karin Slaughter that I didn't put a trigger warning for every single thing that's ever happened to a person in their entire fucking life is happening in that book.

Yes. Yes. It's like there's fucking snuff porn. There is kidnapping. Like, it's like she writes these, you know, like gone girl style books, but they're fucking gnarly. Yeah. So I should have said I don't think I realized how deep it got because I was just in beginning of it. Yeah. So I should have trigger warned that. Yeah. But you know, we are talking to mostly adults with there's, we know there's a couple thirteen year olds out there.

What's up.

You know, to be in school, but for the most part and then I found out someone tagged me that the emotionally immature parent book that I had like randomly mentioned and got the title wrong was like trending on one of the like books. Yes. And I didn't even say it right. So I want to tell everyone it's called adult children of emotionally immature parents. But Lindsay Gibson, awesome. And it's really good. So if you need it, which I didn't realize, many people would need it, what it's called.

Yeah, I, I think that's I love the title of that book. It's so specific. And I bet you there's people who heard the title on. It I didn't know I could read a book like that, right? It's great. It's really helpful and so on. Let's see, I'll piggyback that because, yeah, this is an audio book that I just got because I saw someone else recommending the author. Her name is Maria Konnikova and she just wrote a new book.

And I read something by her gone so. Well, it's I, I sent it to you because I was halfway through freaking out. So I was going to read the new book that I watch someone recommend to somebody else on Twitter. And then when I got into the audio book shop on my phone, she had a book called The Confidence Game. And it's about con men and why we fall for con men. It's like the human psychology of what you're how you're being manipulated by con men when you are and what you want.

That's why you're going. It's not because of just them being good. Right? Right. You want something from them, too?

Well, it's that they're playing on these human truths that we all we all think we're a little bit smarter than the average person.

We think that we can see things other people, other other people can't see. And we think that we're lucky.

We think there's all these very interesting studies that have been done that like so when you walk up to like a three card monte game and maybe you need a little bit of money, there's a voice inside you that tells you I could win this. I'm feeling lucky. That's what happens to every person because they're getting worked by that whole and also that con men almost never work alone. So when you watch other people win a three card monte game or one of those street games, you're watching a shill win the game, a fake person who's working in tandem with the con man.

And then that's what pulls you in, is other people going, I can't believe it. I just want fifty dollars for this book. Man, do they still have those on the street? I feel like in every eighties movies there was a fucking three card monte game happening on whatever street and you just don't see it anymore. You don't see it as much because I think people are a little more hip to them.

But what you get nowadays is stuff online and it's that kind of stuff that with older people, it's, you know, it's the they call it the grandma scam where it's your grandma fell for one the other day.

Are you serious? And I'm like, I would never fall for that. I'm not stupid. Like, I figured I would have known it. There was no link or anything. So it was just what I thought from my stepdad's email saying, hey, I can't get into my Amazon account. Can you just get me a two hundred dollar gift card for my nephew's birthday? Yeah. And I was like, OK, sure, no problem. And then.

Yeah, and I would have done it. Yeah, it's really embarrassing. I said check it. Then I was like, oh, John just fucking said his email got like that. Yes.

So it just seemed, it was so simple. It wasn't like let's click this link, it was his email address. It wasn't a ton of money yet. Yeah. It made sense. It wasn't a thousand dollars. So you didn't go. He wouldn't ask for that expired. It was just enough to be believable.

I was like, man, you spent a lot of money on your nephew, but what do I who am I to say? Who am I to judge? I'm going to get you out of this bind. And then there's people who like so that that was one that they have they know exactly who they're talking to and how to get money out of those people.

And now it's it's like worse than it's ever been. Anyway, the book is called The Confidence Game. The author is Maria Konnikova and she's also the narrator, which I love, because you can feel the people being the expert and talking.

And no offense to the voiceover actors that do a great job, but when the author is the one telling you the story and it's their expertise, I feel like I absorb it so much quicker. And anyway, I just like I listen to that book in two days. It was it was so fascinating. And now I can't lie. I love it. And she has read every other book, so I can't wait to read her other ones. Yeah.

Or listen to as I read next, she has one called How to Think Like Sherlock Holmes, which of course I'm like, give it to me.

I'm a real you're going to be like a con man and like a detective. I'm finally going to rip off old people the way I've always dreamed of.

You're going to learn and now you know, you can send me an email. Hey, I need four dollars. Hey, it's your brother. I just need fifty three dollars.

Look at her. She did it again then.

Shit, I love the I love when people I love that idea that we could all hyp ourselves up a little bit more and like educate ourselves and not get scammed.

Well it was that thing of like I think I'm too smart for to fall for one of those of course. And now I'm like, no, you're not dummy. It's what everyone thinks.

That's the interesting thing. It's just like what they're actually playing on is the commonalities that we all have where the average person, which is most people just always assume that they can't be tricked. And that, of course, leaves the door open for you to totally be tracked. Right. I'm sorry. I like the idea that you could learn a little over the. Some of those scams, because it's the thing to where a lot of people, once they've been scammed, they get scammed again because they can't admit that it happened.

So then they you know what I mean? Like, it's like, yeah, if you want to fix it. Yes, exactly.

And oftentimes the mentality is like if you lose ten dollars, then you're like then they go, do you want to double down? This could be. And then they're like, yeah, this this is it now. Yeah. Exactly right. Yeah.

It's just fascinating. That's scary. I have a podcast that I want to an episode I want to recommend. So my my new one, I'm going to stop calling her my new therapist, my therapist. She suggested I look into this like world renowned trauma expert doctor named Dr. Gabor Mattey.

Have you heard of him? Yes, I yeah. So I looked him up to look for any podcast episodes he was in. And he's in the podcast, the newest podcast last day, which is hosted by Stephanie Whittle's WACs. Who's Harris Harris little sister, who I was friends with. I wouldn't I mean, we were acquaintances, right.

So he's this incredible trauma expert who really studies the traumatic reasoning behind addiction and everything. So she has an episode where she interviews him. It's Episode 17 called Trauma. And it was I mean, it hit home. It was so incredible. The podcast is really cool. And there's a lot of great episodes. The last day it's called last day, just like last last day. The idea behind it is like people's last day on Earth and why and how.

And, you know, the reasons behind the issues like Harris's opioid addiction. And it's just it's really good. Wow, that's great. I definitely want to listen to that.

Yeah, well, I mean, this is a hilarious recommendation from Scotty Landis of Bananas Fame Bananas, the new weird news podcast here on the Exactly Right Network. So anyway, he texted me because I'm watching the show. It's called Travels by Narrow Boat. And it's I believe it's on Netflix. It's a British guy who gets divorced, sells everything, and he gets one of those boats that go along the canals and he basically just puts his whole life on this boat.

And then it's a series where that's all that happens is him going down those canals. Is it reality or is it like a fictional reality? Oh, my God. He's like, fuck everything. Follow me down these canals. Yeah. He basically filmed himself of like, this is I've always dreamed of doing this. This is the life I've always wanted. And then and then you just watch him where I'm like, how? And there's like a bunch of seasons.

So he's been doing it for a while and it's super beautiful. But it's also kind of like I think we've talked about it before, that I believe it's Norwegian or Swedish slow TV where you it's just like basically watching something happen in real time that's kind of pleasing, looking soothing and like it's not like bam, bam, bam.

No. It's like have you ever wanted to go down canals in a narrow boat? Well, now you can go. It's kind of like that.

It's our dog to see of a dog. I've always I'm only I'm only on like episode two, season one. He might get a dog, like things can happen that might be like cliffhanger of season one, season two. It's like suddenly there's a border collie. Oh, I just he gets like a mastiff. It's the hugest dog in the world, takes up half the boat. But he makes it work because this is his life. What's it called again?

That sounds fun.

It's called Travels by Narrow Boat, OK, and it's almost like if you're feeling like overwhelmed, I look for a lot of TV. That's kind of like I just want to not think about some stuff and kind of kick it or whatever. So, like, Joe Para has a new special on Adult Swim that came out last week. If you like anything like, it's like he basically took a bunch of old footage of like fish under under, under water.

Obviously they're not gasping for breath on a dog. I don't know why you do it.

It's just the Pike Place market in Seattle. It's dead fish on ice. Anyway, it's very soothing. You know, he's like it's like his job, his voice, which I'm a huge fan of.

Joe Perry. He's a hilarious comic. He had a series on Adult Swim. And this is like it came out like it was his comedy special. But it literally is just him talking over, like footage of relaxing stuff. I love it. Hilarious. But so that I that's on par with what I'm kind of looking at these days and travels by narrow boat. Is this serious? And it's very much like that.

We could not be more different because the show that I recommend that I am obsessed with on Netflix is called White Lie. And it is I who it is like and I think I watched the trailer for that is that like young hot people in like a boat, like in a harbor town. It is here it is. OK, these fucking deejays from Manchester in the late 90s. So it's like the cool, fucking happy Monday style Inspiron carpets getting their drugs.

And then they go to fucking Ibiza to become like world renowned DJs.

Excuse me, it's pronounced to be the right and the the main guy fucking disappears. Yes. And and then so it's back then and then we go to the fucking present where his sister, who's a gorgeous actress, and they not they didn't cast the ugly one.

That's crazy.

That's who is like a teenager at the time. Goes to the his body gets fined. She goes to find out who fucking killed her brother in a and like it's his old friends. There's drugs there. Sex parties. Like what? Did they kill him or did he kill them? It's like it's so beautifully done.

I'm watching that like such Netflix or Netflix White Lines. It's so it's like got that like time period. But also Ibiza is so beautiful.

Yes. It's like it's got a lot going on. I love it, you know, it has going on really relaxing the pronunciation being a that you'd be Ibiza.

There is a similar one because you know, it's that thing which is very smart of Netflix where you go on and you're immediately watching trailers.

It's so smart so much it doesn't suck you into things you would have never watched before.

It's very smart to play it smart. It drives me fucking crazy. Yeah, well, you know what it is. There's a couple of shows I do not want to see at all. So you have to speak it like panic mode so that you're like, I, I can't hear that voice.

I just put it on mute. Try that. Oh wait. What. But there are some you might not have it on your remote.

My remotes kind of like a newfangled it's it's pretty, you know, it reflects my well my remote but there's a show on that.

I bring this up because there was something I would have normally never watch. It's a show called Knottiest Time to Eat, and it's a British woman and she is a mother of either three or four kids. She's young and she's like, no one has time for anything these days. I'm going to make all the I'm going to show you these recipes that are super simple and delicious. So you have more time to hang out with your family instead of coming home from work, spending all this time making food and then, like, being exhausted and whatever.

And she these hacks, they kind of present it like they're like recipe hacks, but they're fascinating. Like she does this thing where she puts like these kind of rice noodles in these little individual like sealable mason jars. And you can make all this stuff so that when you come home and they use from the refrigerator, we come home from work. You just put hot water in each one.

And they basically it has like a like a pho show, not a eFax. Far, far. Yeah. Is that how you pronounce it? I think it's fun. I only know how to pronounce Sabetha.

I mean so anyway, that looks great. Yeah. I love cooking shows. That sounds perfect.

It's so good. And all this stuff she makes she also then goes and like it's just a very well-made British cooking show. Reminds me of Nigella a lot. Oh Nigella cooks. What a beautiful show that was Barefoot Contessa I love so much. Oh yeah I know.

Like Ina Garten. She's amazing. She knows her stuff like cooking shows should be definitely happening right now. Your life. I think that's like the best thing to leave on. Yes, it is. That thing of like when you watch someone make a beautiful thing, you're not going to go back, eat the fucking dregs of the mustard and onion pretzel bites and you just feel gross. You're going to make say, I made Veenstra empting cheese. It's into my mouth.

But watching out of the corner of my eye. Right. Like, oh, that looks I could do that.

That's so easy. So easy. I made Venza mashed potato and cheese Kassidy today.

Yes. Delicious. I hope your deep fried it like that but if I had a deep fryer in my kitchen.

So basically you took a flour or corn tortilla. Flour flour tortilla. We have leftover mashed potatoes. Sprinkle some cheese in there. Yeah. Roll it up right in the microwave. No grilled that fucker. Yeah. Great. You know that's delicious and perfect. Hell yeah. Let's see. What else do you have.

Oh, I just wanted to say I was so excited because I finally finally got my printer cartridge in the mail. Oh my God.

So I have a hard copy in my hand for literally the first time in like eight weeks where it's been driving me insane watching you read your stories, just like squinting.

Sticking your face in, I don't care, but it has not looked comfortable. Is not you sticking your face in the computer screen and squinting your eyes to read the worst? Looks like it's not been fun for you. Well, and again, like we were talking about the beginning.

Sorry, I had to put that down because I was going blind. But then you're so close to the screen that you can't help but see yourself and judge yourself and have all kinds of weird, lamanno, self-conscious feelings for you, just like.

Did you hear that? I heard it in. Oh, shit. Sorry.

Just did the thing where she lifted up the side of her shirt and burped into her shirt.

I was being polite. You're thinking of others in this time of covid-19, and I appreciate it.

I've been with I have been with a guy 24/7 too long. It is getting gross. You know, he he wipes his fingers on his armpit in his armpit when he's, like, eating chips and like, I can at least use your sock. So burping into my t shirt is was really polite of me kind of thing that you wouldn't think about until someone else witnesses you do it like you.

You'd just be like, no, but I didn't like you wouldn't even think you were doing it until you do it and get caught doing it. Sorry to love you. You're the great I think it's the cutest thing. Otherwise we probably wouldn't be together. It's like that annoyed me, you know, like when things that fun things you think are cute with a guy or a, you know, a partner. But if you're like I didn't like you, that would be annoying.

Yes. But I must love you because I think that's adorable. Yes. That's a good way to frame it and go ahead and hold onto that framework eight months from now when his armpits are filled with Cheeto dust and you're like, what the fuck?

All we have left to eat are fucking mashed potatoes, pizza. You're trying to make the hey, look, I shaped these mashed potatoes into case ideas. It's all there's no tortillas left. It's all Kasarda, isn't that I mean, it's all mashed potato. It's a sculpture. Oh, I wanted to so they're OK.

I have one more thing. Yeah. There is a woman, she's an actress.

Can I guess. Yeah.

Just like oh my God. Do you know about what if.

I guess that would be amazing. Her name is Rianne Barretto. Bay are etto and out of nowhere she start tagging me in this thing and it turns out she's an actress and she found out about us from her director who who wanted she had to learn an American accent for this role she was doing.

No. Yeah. And her her director pipper was like, you should listen to my favorite murder. You'll get like a real accent. And so she did. And she said she became a huge fan. And so she won like the she won the American little girl.

You know, she won the fucking special jury award for us, dramatic acting at fucking Sundance. She thanked and she thanked us, won the fucking acceptance speech.

That's fucking right.

The movie is called Hold on the Fuck is Going On.

The movie's called Share Sayari. And then she went on fucking. And then she sent me the clip. She went on Seth Meyers and talked about us. What?

And so you got help from a podcast and she's like, Yeah, my favorite Martin, thanks to George and Mike Myers show.

Thank you so much and congratulations, because if you can hear our voices, it's amazing.

It's not easy for as bad is as American. Oftentimes Americans version of British accents are. As a person who watches a fuck ton of British television, you can see a British actor when they don't hire American actors and they get a British actor who's like, I got this, don't worry about it, and they don't got it. It's the funniest thing because it is so about cadence and rhythm and casual like casualness.

Maybe it's I can't explain it. It's just like you just know it's a British actor doing an American act. You just know it in the same way that it the other way. It's hilarious. I love it. Oh, that's so cool.

We're helping we're helping cinema someone we're helping someone out. Oh.

I mean, I must have been good if she won an award for it. So I mean, thank you. Thank you.

And you're welcome. So you're welcome. What if the whole thing was like that? It's like you go just watch the movie and it's the most upsetting voice of all.

It's just this the most annoying person that's ever lived, just like you guys helped me.

So. Oh, my God, I got so much. Thank you so much. Because look at the background of. Was it really irritating? Well, it's like not like this, but like I couldn't get because I'm not safe. I mean, that was good.

Oh, I wanted to say the guy that's doing my dad's flaws, his name is Dave Cooney, and he's the one that's the murderer, you know, and I didn't say his name when I told that story last time.

Not everyone wants to be named. Not everyone. And maybe he still doesn't. Too bad. Dave, thank you so much. Because my sister says the floors look unbelievable like that.

He got a fuckin a fucking one up or whatever. Oh, yeah. He got the extra special floor treatment, do you think? Right. Jim got the favorite sport. Jim Jim paid for, like, the shittiest kind of hardwood he could find. And let's give him the one up. Oh, one. Let's give him a one up. Nice of them. That actually makes me think I watched the movie, the original Arthur movie last night.

Dudley Moore. So good. That's OK. If you are looking for a laugh and if you haven't seen it, you might not like it. It's definitely very 80s comedy, but God damn it, that thing is back to back hard jokes.

It's like Liza Minnelli. Oh, it's so good.

She's killer. And they you believe they really fall in love. Like they you can tell there's true chemistry, there's something really happening. But it is that it's so charming. And of course, John Gielgud is one of his you know, he's so he's the butler. That's Hopsin. He's so hilarious. It's just such a, like, laugh. Right.

If you need if you need something like that, that might have been one of the original ones that made me love fake drunk people. Yes. Like I like when you're when you do fake. Yeah. Arthur Fake Drunk. He's he's perfect at it. He's so and there is a scene where it's after hops and dies, he goes and sits in a bar and there's a drunk with him and then he goes, oh that's terrible.

The drunk is so hilarious and believable, the two of them being drunk together. You never for one second go oh this is two actors playing drunk. Yeah. You're like I am in a bar. These guys are shitfaced. It's so realistic.

That's what I love watching fake drunk lovers.

Oh, sorry. This is just one more thing. You should see this fucking piece of paper with the same writing all over it.

It just says Prenter underlined twice. Tell the teleprinter story. It's amazing, guys.

I got my printer cartridges the end last week.

The live show that we put up for you guys was from Oakland twenty eighteen. And that was the show where my sister and Nora, my niece, were there and Nora came out perfect cue and did a cartwheel and ran away. Excellent. My sister, if anyone has video of that that they can send to our website or to Twitter or to Instagram or anywhere, my sister would love you forever. She that's all she wants in the world. And I think that at some point someone either had a picture or something.

Maybe maybe video. Yeah. If you would resend also because she's Naura is now like a foot taller and a teenager who's like Beilby in my room, times are changing so rapidly and we just need to hold close the memories that we have.

We can only stare at her like third grade picture so much. But that was that moment was so hilarious. And also my sister was backstage, so she didn't get to see it. Right, right, right, right.

So if anyone has it, we'll we'll track it down, OK, if you would, please. And I think that is. Yep. Travels by Naropa Check. But I think that's all we have.

That's it. I wanted to thank thank you to Cosmo. They've put us on a couple of nice lists recently. Oh yeah.

And and I said no gifts too was in Cosmo. Right.

Hey speaking of I said no gifts. This week we comedic writer and performer Lamar Woods from New Girl and Single Parents was with Bridger. And what's really interesting is that he grew up Jehovah's Witness, so he had to bring a gift or not bring a gift and to talk about gifts.

He he he literally lived. I said no gifts from God, right?

That's exactly right. News. Yes. Well, Stephen, to you, Stephen, do you want to report on anything from the cast?

Oh, well, we are talking to somebody who rescued a hairless cat. So that's always what's that hairless cat's name, Georgie, named after Jason Alexander in Seinfeld.

George, George, George. George, the chicken wing. The chicken wing.

Oh, I love it. Yeah.

Well, look, I didn't not look up hairless cat rescue today, but I did, but I didn't. Yeah, you got to do something right with our time.

And if looking up hairless cat rescued does it for you, I really did do it. In 2012, a 72 year old man named Samuel Little was charged with three Los Angeles murders dating back to the 1980s.

So we finally got to where we were going. The crowd at Liverpool roar after only one appeal.

But since then, it's become clear he is the most prolific serial killer in the United States has ever seen, 93 victims, 19 states. Samuel Little has become infamous, but his victims, some of whom remain unidentified, are stuck in the shadows. It's time for that to change.

My experience in working with some of the victims families is that he was dead wrong. They were missed. They were very loved and their families were hurting.

The Fall Line presents a special limited series. The victims of Samuel Little will cover both solved and unsolved Southeastern cases and tell you how you can help the victims. Still waiting for justice, featuring rare interrogation tape, FBI interviews and in depth detail. This is a series you won't want to miss. Episodes begin on September 16th from Exactly Right Network. Find us on Stitcher Apple podcast or wherever you listen. His first appearance, first, this Karen Kilgariff.

OK, and I will slow down on the Rossett, but only a little just downshift into second gear. OK, this week, this is what I wanted to do for a while. And a listener named Onya Weitzman wrote in to suggest it as well. Thank you, Anya. And I got this information from Murder Pedia Wikipedia and the website medium, which always has great stuff. Now they have and maybe for a while they have had they have a section called the Crime Historian that that focuses on like kind of older true crime stories.

And so that was the article written by a writer named Ash Woods. I used that as well for the story. And I don't know if you know this. The angel makers of aggrieve know you've never heard this?

No. Oh, shit, girl. OK, so this takes place in Hungary. So grief, I had to look up one of those websites where you press a button and you can hear someone pronounce it and it was like not negative.

So I'm I'm definitely pronouncing it in inaccurately.

But now I'm I'm about to go ahead and just totally destroy some last names because I couldn't enter them into this website like it wouldn't help me.

So it's going to be phonetic visual phonetics and it's going to be wrong. So my worry, everyone will correct you. Yes. Don't worry. It's going to give us all something to do in the panic. Don't worry, guys. And especially you sensitive Hungarians out there. Listen up because you're about to have something to email and Twitter about.

OK, so this story is so fascinating. I wanted to do it a couple of times, but I don't know.

Yeah, OK, so the year is 1911, OK? It's kind of long ago, all things considered.

And we go to this is a small, impoverished farming village in aggrieve Hungary.

I'm putting them. I don't know why. Right. I'm rolling the ah though. Which I don't think it's not grieve, not grieve. It's the kind right now. Grieve. That's how she says it nagara anyway. It's sixty miles southeast of Budapest and a young wife named Mrs. Takacs.

Yeah, that's definitely wrong. T a a c. S OK.

She she goes to the local midwife in the middle of the night. Sorry Stephen. I burped right in the middle of that one.

Can you please do that into your shirt. Excuse me ma'am.

OK, so Mrs. Tuka knocks on the local midwifes door in the middle of the night. She's just been beaten up by her husband. Her alcoholic husband is just beating the shit out of her, so she has to go. The midwife is the only person that's like close to a doctor. Yeah. In the village. And she has to go there for medical treatment. So the midwife is a woman named Julia Fazekas or phased CAS or a lot of other things.

I think Zacchaeus Zacchaeus is what we're going to go with. It feels right to me.

So she's used to helping people at all hours of the night because she's basically the go to person. But she doesn't just treat Mrs. Takacs wounds. She also tells her that she knows how she can take care of her husband for good.

So let's talk about Julia for Zacchaeus for a second.

She she moved to New Guriev in 1911. She's a middle aged midwife and her husband Julius had disappeared before she got there under mysterious circumstances. And no one knows where she's from or what her background is. But she's been recommended to be the midwife for this village by several doctors who know that she has medical expertise and know what she's doing. And since Nonaggressive does not have a doctor, anybody nearby at all, they're happy to have her.

So Mrs. Tuka, six, sits in Julia's kitchen and watches her make a secret concoction. The midwife puts flypaper into a pot of water, boils it down, extracting it's arsenic. Oh, fuck. And then she bottles that arsenic water and sends Mrs. Takase home with it. That's more. Two days later, the midwife watches Mr TACA funeral procession from her front porch. He's reportedly died from a heart attack. And from that moment on, life in the little village of Nikolaev takes a wild and morbid turn.

Mm hmm.

OK, so in the early in early nineteen hundreds, Hungary arranged marriages are very common. That's basically kind. How it is the women usually are much younger than the men. It has nothing to do with love or attraction or anything. It's mostly just a practical deal. The families of the girls and women, they want to get rid of the daughters. That's just an extra mouth to feed. Yeah. And the men who are who do very difficult manual labor all day long, they want someone to have babies with them.

They want someone to cook and clean for them. They basically want their own manual laborer at home.

Yeah. It's like literally an arrangement. It's not it's not a marriage.

It's just kind of how we keep everything going in the village. So not a ton of romance happening in Knackery, apparently, or the surrounding area. I mean, I'm sure there was for sure, but this was kind of like the standard and it was what people were used to. Yeah. So there's also a problem in in this village, particularly the majority of the men that, like women, are just kind of there to do their bidding.

There's not there's not a lot of respect for women. This is not a patriarchal society in any way. And a lot of them are alcoholics and they work really hard. They drink really hard. And beating their wife is not that big of a deal, a deal. It's just kind of standard fare. And also there most of them are very, very poor. So there's a lot of stressors and there's a lot of things to be escaping from and drinking about.

And so, you know, your wife becomes, you know, basically what you take out your frustrations on there. It's just very common. It's kind of the oppressive cycle of poverty and they're all caught in it. But in 1914, World War One starts, and so almost all the able bodied men of the village are sent off to fight. And so all these young wives and women are alone for the first time and they have to now work the fields.

And they're the ones that then have to go and sell and trade the crops and keep everything going and then and still manage the households. So they they basically have to take over everything.

Yeah, it's a ton of work, but it's the most freedom they've ever had.

They're like, this is great. We're not getting fucking beaten. Yeah.

And we fuck and we're in charge. And it's actually we're we're actually very capable. Yeah. I was going to say and they're thriving, but that's an editorial spin. We don't know that that's the truth.

But but I would think that it would be kind of amazing to be like suddenly you don't have this oppression and maybe even understand a little more. You're out there working the field all day and then come back and then you're kind of like, we just have to keep it going. But you you find it's like I think but it happened to a lot of women in in World War Two when they got to step up and they were suddenly working in factories and they were suddenly making machinery and using heavy machinery and going, yeah, I can do this.

This isn't this isn't a mystery. This isn't all that hard. Yeah. Or it's an art and learning.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have it in me to do it. I'm not a dainty flower so. Right. OK, so because negative is this isolated little village, the Hungarian army decides to build some camps there to hold Russian prisoners. Oh dear. Yeah. So now the women of the village who are free from their shady mean drunk husbands and that have this kind of new independence, they they start having affairs with these people. Dobias isn't about to get sexier because, I mean, I like it.

Just imagine how hot it would be. You're married to some fifty eight year old farmer. He's gone. Yeah. And suddenly there's just like a hot Russian twenty year olds that happen to get caught. It's just kind of standing hanging off the chain link fence. I mean, I'm loving the vegetables.

Are you going to write a romance novel? Why not? So essentially they start having these affairs. And now the downside, of course, is there's all kinds of unwanted pregnancies, that's for sure.

Of course, because it's still 1914. Yeah.

Nobody's everybody's like, well, we'll take care of it. What was that? Nothing. What did you just spit it into my shirt? You just couldn't hear it, whispered it into your shoulder. A little secret. OK, so of course, nobody like these children can't be born because no one has the money. Everyone's working their ass off.

This is not this is not the time to start having children and shit probably doesn't go go down well when you've had an affair outside of your marriage and then when your husband comes back from war and you're like, what?

Yes. Our new child. So of course the the women of the village turn to Julia for Zacchaeus, the midwife, for help. So of course, she knows how to. Give abortions because she's a midwife and they are illegal in Hungary at the time, but Julia doesn't give a fuck because she's a classic midwife who's like, hey, how about some reproductive rights? Hey, how about you don't have to have a baby if you don't want to?

She gains a reputation as an abortionist. She's actually been arrested for it 10 different times between 1911 and nineteen twenty one. Wow. But because she's not Greeves only doctor, the authorities always let her go and because deep down they know this is a fact of life anyway. Right.

So as World War One comes to an end in 1918, the men of grief begin to return home in waves and many of them have been wounded. And of course, all of them have been traumatized by what they've seen, the horrors of war. So it definitely doesn't help their anger issues or their drinking problems or any of the stuff that was happening before.

Plus, now these women have tasted freedom and independence and evasions and they get a little of that borscht taste that they like so much.

Yeah. So the domestic disputes and the domestic violence returns with all everybody coming back and with these adjustments where the women are suddenly like, yeah, no, it's not going away like that anymore. Yeah. So as more and more of these women of the village air their grievances to their trusted midwife, Julia, she starts offering them the same solution that she offered Mrs. Takacs back in 1911, which is a vial of poison to be mixed in with her husband's food or drink.

So slowly, more and more women take her up on this offer. Julia tells the women that the arsenic cannot be traced in a decomposing corpse and that they're so that would ensure that they would always be safe from getting into any kind of trouble and because that there aren't any other medical experts in the village or anywhere nearby to examine the bodies, all of these deaths are ruled as heart attacks. So as the word spreads amongst the women, Julia's customer base grows.

Julia, you got to be cool. I mean, you can't you can't solve everything by killing. I've said it to you, George, a thousand times.

But but in this situation where suddenly there is an out for this this oppression and this kind of like in a spot where women never had any agency whatsoever.

Yeah. They feel a little bit and suddenly they're like, you're not fucking taking that freedom back from me.

And it really is this kind of like this solution that feels very justified to them. Yeah. So Julia has more and more women of the village coming to her in secret and she charges them on a sliding scale. It's purely based on what they can afford. And the number of deaths in aggrieve slowly climbs and climbs and grown men who otherwise seem completely healthy start dropping like flies and no one can explain why. So, of course, the townspeople are superstitious.

They immediately think witchcraft is a plague. Oh shit. A lot of the young men noticed that the the men who are dying are married.

So a bunch of the single men won't won't get married and the marriage rate takes a nosedive when they think it's like that's the kind of cause and effect.

Yeah, exactly. It's simply the marriage. And some do guess that Julia might be involved, but they have no proof of it. One of the clergymen in town is later quoted as saying this Superstitious peasants are terrified of Julia. They believe she has supernatural powers. And as her official capacity as nurse and midwife, it gives her access to every family. She dominates the entire district. These villages, gentlemen, are utterly, utterly dominated by women and the men are all afraid for their lives.

A man can't help but smile to see the shoe on the other foot. But there are some rules that Julie has established to keep this growing secret network of what they will later term as angel makers of a secret. Yeah, so here's Julia's roles. You are only allowed to be in the circle if you're unhappily married. No single women, no women married to good men. So I guess that's up to Julia to decide who's good. You can only kill abusive husbands.

You cannot kill good men. You can't kill women. You cannot kill children. And how decent of you and you cannot talk about the angel makers with anyone who isn't in it or with anyone who doesn't meet the requirements to join. So it's like a Hungarian female fight club, but where the fighting leads to death and the person who's in it in the fight doesn't know. That they're right in the fight, so not not like that at all. Anyway, so essentially this this works for a while.

And if people keep it secret for a while and while these these perfectly healthy and relatively young men are dropping dead, the whole village starts buzzing with fear, the people who are not in the circle or the circuit.

But Julia, it's the demand is so great for her services that she has to get someone else to help her. So she pulls in a local woman named Susie, Olá or Olá.

Not sure. Years before, when Susie was just 18, she poisoned her first husband the same way that Julia is poisoning boiling flypaper, getting that arsenic and lacing her first husband's food with the poison so she knows how to get it. She knows what Julie is doing, and she basically helps Julia collect and bottle the arsenic to sell it. And Susie also brings another crucial benefit to the table. Her son is the coroner of not grieve. Yes. So right.

So he's in charge of determining cause of death. And so these poisoned husbands are being written off as having died of heart attack, disease, drinking themselves to death, in one case, drowning after one of the bodies is thrown into a nearby river.

So it's it's kind of the perfect crime and it goes on for the next 10 years while they are there for real.

It's they don't go through all of them.

Yeah, I think I think well, they go through a bunch of them. So it couldn't have been a tiny village know. It wasn't like two hundred people obviously. Right. But but it goes on for ten years with nobody saying anything and no one getting caught. But with that amount of unchallenged power, the women begin to get reckless and greedy. Yeah, they do. Yeah. Just like all human beings. It's how it goes. So they start to deviate from Julia's strict rules and they start poisoning parents who have grown too old and are hard to care for the they poisoned children that they can't feed anymore.

No, no, no, no. And they poisoned siblings they don't like.

So they just fucking start going crazy. You start killing everyone. Yes.

They just are like, we've got the solution and we've become like immune to the effects of this. And now this is just how we take care of business. When some of the women discover they can inherit land and money from relatives, they start killing their relatives, too. So essentially what begins as what some could rationalize as a vigilante act of self-defense becomes simple, unchecked power and with unchecked power, it brings out the one of the worst qualities of humanity, greed.

So as as that, basically they break the pact and they just start fucking killing people and going insane. So the villagers that the ones with good husbands and normal families are like, well, everyone's dying. So they start writing letters to local authorities accusing the village women of killing their relatives. But there's no hard evidence. So the police can't really do anything. But the gossip is spreading. So surrounding villages are like they know what they're up to. They know what's actually going on.

The exact number of deaths is unknown, but it's estimated to be around three hundred. Holy shit.

By the time authorities step in aggrieve locally earned the nickname the murder district.

Perfect. Yeah. Now it's nineteen twenty nine. Hungary is conducting its ten year census. Oh. So when they get their info back from Negri, the officials noticed something very strange in those numbers. What's that. That, that death rate. So the last time they did the census in 1919, the birth rate was about three hundred and forty two. You know, there are three hundred forty more births than there were deaths. OK, no babies only have a thirty six baby lead over the deaths.

They vote. So it's almost the same.

They close that gap, close that gap in a way that is very unnatural and unlikely. And so that's when Hungarian officials decide it's time to launch an investigation. There are as many deaths as there are births. As they start looking into it, they notice that the overwhelming majority of deaths are otherwise healthy adult men.

Yeah.

So around the same time, the Greeves presenter, which is a word I've never heard before, but it's a person who leads the congregation at church in song or prayer. So it's kind of like a cantor, I guess.

Yeah, well. Is that right? Yes. OK, thank you. So this man drunkenly abuses his wife. The wife goes to her neighbor, who is an angel maker. She's in the circuit secrets circuit named Mrs. Zabo. And this is Zabo tells the cells, the woman some arsenic. But when the woman tries to poison her husband by pouring the arsenic into his wine, the husband catches her. Yeah, she immediately confesses and immediately turns to Mrs.

Zabo and says she's the one that so sold me the arsenic bucket. Honey, snitches get stitches, get candy. So the police go to Mrs. Zabo.

They question her. She immediately cracks. And she doesn't only confess to poisoning her late husband and her brother, but she gives the police. Julia Hatzakis, is that how I pronounced it? Julia Fazekas and Susie Olaus names. So cool, right? So everybody turns which which would make sense, too, because this is such a strange.

It almost feels to me like a mass hysteria, mass murder hysteria. You know what I mean? Where it's like it's like I don't know. Doesn't this person told me to do it. It's like the the level of OK with something that is not OK got raised to like it's fine. Right. We're all we're all just getting rid of the people that are bumming us out and it's like and then everyone else is doing it.

It's a normal thing here. A year, 10 years, 10 years. So Julia and Susie are promptly arrested and they're brought in for questioning. They both deny it smart. They don't immediately turn on everybody. But because they've worked their stories out about 10 years to work, they get the stories stick together and they stick to them and they convince the police that they that they have nothing to do with anything enough to be released. But they're being watched.

So the police are like, OK, you can go, but they actually have them followed. So then Julia goes and knocks on all of the angel makers doors in every woman in the circuit. And she's just like this whole thing. We're shutting it down. This is over. She doesn't know. Yeah, exactly. She doesn't know she's being followed.

So she basically just leads the police to every woman in the in the angel maker's secret group.

Not cool. So there's two different stories of what happened next because it was so long ago, either a local medical student finds that a drowned body of one of the victims that one of the angel makers threw in the river tests, it discovers traces of arsenic in its fingernails and hair and then reports it to the authorities or one of the ringleaders of the angel makers, a woman named Balint. Exodus travels to Budapest. Thank you.

And a baby that she travels to Budapest and she asks a chemist if arsenic can be traced in dead bodies. And he tells her that it can be found in fingernails and hair.

Either way, she was like, oops, yeah. She's like, now when I poison my husband. Excuse me. What I meant to say is I'm asking for a friend. Either way, the angel makers of aggrieve, they learned arsenic can be traced and which contradicts what Julia told all of them.

So they freak out and a group of them come up with this plan. So the next night, 13 of them gather in the local cemetery and start digging up tombstones and swapping them around so that when the police come and exhume the bodies, they find poison in the people they think were murdered because it will actually be the wrong to coffin.

That's smart, genius, diabolical. It's deeply diabolical, but it is a good idea. But very smart. Very smart. Don't very don't do that. Don't stop it. That's why they make greystones so heavy. Can't just go switching them around. But but here's the thing. It doesn't even matter because the police are already on to all of it.

So they basically catch these women, the angel makers, in the act of doing if they were only able to switch a couple headstones, they must've been pretty heavy back then, too. Yeah, they catch them in the act. Most of the women run. They real the authorities realize they're dealing with with some some serious some serious criminals here.

So they they just start exhuming the bodies right then and while they pull up fifty bodies and they test them all. And of those forty six test positive for arsenic.

Oh that's like an eight plus. That's like a that's a that's a ninety five percent if I'm not wrong and I know about. You're good at math. Thanks. Everyone knows the. But I just think about the four guys who died, however natural causes, you can you can bury me back up. And I was like, I didn't kill him. She's the wife. Like, I'm the one this whole time that's going you guys are going insane.

You guys. You're drunk with power. Stop it. I Pinky swore I didn't kill my husband. How is that not enough for you?

My husband, a promise me that he made me promise that I wouldn't kill him and B, he made me promise I wouldn't exhume him.

And now look where we are. Yeah. And Jay sued the village of aggrieve and she won. No, those are all lies.

OK, so when the police go to arrest Julia Fazekas, I pronounced it differently. Every time I'm panic, I'm out of here. I going to be covering all the bases. She basically sees the cops coming toward her house and she downs a bottle of her own arsenic and dies before she can be arrested. Yeah, she's not playing a Gabbi. Of the one hundred women arrested, twenty six of them are put on trial and twelve of those are found guilty.

And they receive prison sentences, seven of which are sentenced to life in prison. Eight of them are sentenced to death, including, yeah, including Susie, Olá and her sister Lydia.

Some other women, including violent Zora's, killed themselves in prison. Wow. Yeah. So it's the fantasy ends it all.

It all falls apart. And so a couple movies have been made about the angel makers, including two thousand two experimental Hungarian film called Huckle. It looks like it's pronounced huckle h u k l e and the two thousand five documentary, The Angel Makers. Wow. And there's a book called The Angel Makers by Jessica Gregson. And I'm not going to be able to pronounce this. Do it. It's T i s z a z. So I'll say to Zagazig A Social History of a murder epidemic by Boto Bella.

And those are two books you can read about this insane story of the angel makers of Negative.

I thought that was crazy. Where did you hear about that originally?

I've never heard of that. That is like a classic one that gets mentioned on the what's the what's the website we love that does the lists.

Ranko that's like one that's on RANKO Yeah.

And it's basically kind of like I always didn't want to do the research because it's old. And I was always like, do we even have names to even know. Yeah.

People that are at play here. Right. But yeah, it's hard to find details and then it's also hard to verify anything.

Yeah. It sounds like oh something that happened in the hills but we're not exactly sure. But nope. This one is true and crazy. It's just like. Yeah.

Crazy little village where everyone would leave murder crazy for ten fucking years. To me how many people is like they suspected like two hundred people were killed. Three hundred three.

There's no, there's no number for sure but around three hundred I bet you it's either they called it the murder district. Wow.

Like you're just trying to get from your cart, your donkey and cart from one village to the other.

They're like don't go by the murder district, you don't go by and Marion and then fucking physically abuse anyone in the murder district seat because it's that's why I like the story, too, because when you first read it, you're like, good, but it's like, no, you that's a natural reaction of like when things feel unfair and then revenge is like feels like the best answer, but it never is because it's that unchecked power thing that it no one's immune to that the effect of unchecked power.

Everything gets out of hand eventually. Yes.

When there's when there's too much arsenic, where are they getting all that flypaper? I asked. Yeah. Yeah. You think that the fucking whatever the fucking dude who works at the drugstore are selling all the flypaper like this is where they're like sending away to the Sears catalog for it or just like no one's checking this at all.

Hundreds of rolls of fly paper.

I bet there are a lot of flies in that building. The flies were scared shitless.

All right, so I first heard about this story like two weeks ago when I was tagged by a bunch of people. Thank you. On Instagram, on Instagram called History photographed and do these cool photos. And then they tell you the story about whatever it's about. And it's a lot of stuff I've never heard of, which is fun. A lot of it's made up of yet. And one of those stories entirely fabricated history. Oops. Oops. Oh, well, here we go.

Here we go.

So this is the story of Hohns Schmidt, the first and only priest to be executed in the United States. Oh, shit. I heard those, Schmidt. Oh, sorry. And we're.

And here we go. No, I've never had this. Yeah, I hadn't either. It's very odd. And I got info from the Daily News by an article by David Craddock's Krajisnik, a Ranko article by Harris Tempest's What's Up, Wikipedia Murder Pedia and all that's interesting article. And then there's also a book that's called The Trunk Dipped in Blood. And it's five sensational murder cases of the early 20th Century by Marc Grossman. So here we go. Let's start on September 5th, 1913.

So it's the same time your shit's going on. Oh, yeah. At the same time across the world, I left the world. I live in New Jersey. Yeah. So on September 5th, nineteen thirteen, two kids on the New Jersey side of the Hudson River come across the torso of a woman, the upper torso. Oh, so the chest of a woman. And the next day, about three miles downriver at Weehawken, the lower torso of the same woman is found and it's in a pillowcase.

And over the next several days, authorities find six total, a total of six different female body parts. And they're able to piece them together and find that all the body parts are from the same woman. An autopsy, the body parts tells police that they're investigating the murder of a woman who's under 30 years old, around five foot four, between one hundred and twenty, one hundred and thirty pounds. And the autopsy also reveals that the woman had prematurely given birth shortly before she was murdered.

So that could have been from an abortion, which is illegal at the time. Yeah, OK. But since since the pieces were found on the New Jersey side of the Hudson, so technically it should have been their case. But instead, the case, which is now known as the Hudson River, a mystery is turned over to the New York PD because the New Jersey police are like, well, both of the packages that were found on our site contain the body parts that contain the body parts have a type of rock called Schist Rock that's very common in Manhattan but never found in New Jersey.

So they're like, well, the crime was probably committed in New York. You guys can have the case, which is like a twist on how it usually is.

Yeah, I was just going to say, usually it's like this is our area, stay out of it.

But they're kind of like, I wonder if it's because maybe the NYPD was so advanced at that time, they were like, you guys should probably take this because. Yeah, because clearly it's horrific. Some horrific situation. Yeah. And needs all the help it can get. So so it goes to the NYPD. The investigation is assigned to the Manhattan chief of detectives. His name is Joseph Farrow and he is famous for beginning the new era and police science in a case in 1911, which was the first time fingerprint evidence alone led to a criminal conviction.

So he's like he went to Scotland Yard, learned all about fingerprinting and brought it back here and was like, I swear this works, you guys.

Yeah, trust me. Trust me. You have to believe me. So, Detective Farrow, he uses that the pillow case that one of the body parts was found in and which is monogrammed with the letter A as well as the newspaper that the body was wrapped in, which was dated August thirty first.

And he takes the tag in the monogrammed pillowcase and traces it back to a Manhattan furniture dealer named George SAC's. So they they find the receipt that coincides with the pillowcase purchase. And when they show the receipt to Mr. Saks, he's like, oh, yeah, I totally remember that sale. It was made to a man who called himself a Van Dyke. He paid in cash and he asked to have the items, including the pillowcase delivered to his apartment, and he gives them the address to the apartment.

OK, so this leads them to the third floor apartment in a in an uptown building. And then when they questioned the building superintendent, he says that the apartment is occupied by a married couple and that the husband is a good looking man with a heavy German accent. And he had given his name as H. Schmidt after a three day stakeout. And no one is coming or going into the apartment. The inspector farro orders a detective to break into the apartment, probably illegal at the time.

You got to hope. So they're detectives, fine drops of blood on the walls and on the iron bedposts, and it looks like someone's tried to clean it up and the rest, they find the rest of the newspaper that it used to wrap the body and then in a steamer trunk, they find a large bloodstain knife, a handsaw, and they also find a bunch of letters from Germany addressed to someone named Anna Mueller. So Inspector Farrow goes to the New York address on those letters and finds a couple who knew Anna from Germany.

They tell investigators that Anna had arrived in New York in nineteen eighty eight. She was 16 years old at the time, and now she worked as a servant at several places and a housekeeper. But her last job had been at St. Boniface Catholic Church on forty seventh and second. And there the senior pastor, Reverend John Braun, said that he had fired Anna on August 13th, which was like a month earlier before the body was found, not even.

And he had fired her after only eight months on the job because he, quote, was not satisfied with her way of life and that she had then transferred to St. Joseph's Church, which is like Jaji judge much Catholics.

Yeah. Yes, they do. They sure did.

So Reverend Braun was like, you know, who you need to speak with is Anna's spiritual guide mom, who happened to be the former assistant pastor at that church.

His name was Reverend Hans Schmidt, and that both him and Anna now worked at St. Joseph Church together. A spiritual guide. Spiritual guide. I thought I thought you meant like a spiritualist, like a psychic or something. Maybe I don't really know. Well, but I mean, he's a priest. They just met her, OK, right? Probably. So inspect the structure of her own. Has detectives go to St. Joseph's Rectory where the senior pastor, Daniel Quinn, takes them into the parlor where Hans Schmidt is asleep and they wake him up and he's like, oh, fuck.

And he becomes hysterical and says, I killed her. I killed her because I loved her. So he immediately admits to killing the woman that had been found in the Hudson River, which was Anna Mueller. And he then goes on to describe Anna's murder and dismemberment in detail. His fellow priests who were like fuckin napping to probably we're like, oh, my God. And look on in horror as he's taken into police custody. Wow.

Just out with it, right? The second. The second they knock on the door. Yeah. He opens his eyes and starts admitting to shit, you know. Yeah. So let me tell you about Hammerschmidt. Hans Schmidt. He's born embittering.

Sorry. Let me tell you about obsession at this moment. He's born in the barbarian town of schaffen. Berg to a Protestant father and a Catholic mother and eighteen eighty one. And as a kid, he liked to dress up like a clergyman. His he would wear a cassock and collar. So like the priest's outfits. A priest dress. Yep. Yep. His mom would like hand make him these little priest outfits because he wanted to be one so bad.

He was like cause playing priests not all squeaky stupid even during his 80 episodes.

Steven Bussin. And that's that sort of I thought it was a mute to be honest.

Well you were it and now you're never going to live it down. This is what Steven does when he's on mutinies. He's having a completely different experience to these stories than we are.

Oh, creepy little priest child Annabel three coming to theaters.

So he makes his own altars at home and he pretends to carry out services and sacrament and he earns the nickname in town.

Well, little priest, how cute.

So according to Hons, he was also obsessed with blood and he used it in his fake religious rituals. And he like to spend free time at the slaughterhouse watching the slaughter of pigs and cows by the local butcher.

Oh, Steven, Steven, this is bad. He doesn't agree.

I mean, a kid like this, we've got we've got issues. But they couldn't have known from the just the priest outfit. All No, although creepy not you can't do anything about it. Slotter. Slaughterhouse Hobbie No dude. No.

And even the slaughter. What about the slaughterhouse. Hobbie Without the priest outfit. Like if they're separate, even separate.

Now we've got the unholy union where you've got a child that likes blood rituals.

Good luck. Good luck. Would you rather have a child become a butcher? Or a priest. That's the question you want to put your 1000 percent. OK, so ba ba ba ba ba ba. You weren't actually asking me. Sorry.

No, I know I did my answer. No one knew for the rest of this story.

Oh, and he he himself says that early on the sight of blood stimulated his very first sexual arousal was so not great. Not show. So Stephen, great job.

No I'm sorry but I love him.

And he also claimed he was sexually abused by his older brothers, so. But that was according to him. Right. So allegedly, eventually, Hans Schmidt heads to seminary school and at 25 years old, is ordained in 1984. And during parish assignments in the small villages, Schmidt allegedly molested altar boys, has affairs with several women and solicit sex workers. And meanwhile, parishioners and fellow priests are like over this dude and they complain to him to the months, months.

What's it called?

Monsignor, Monsignor, Monsignor Sewell and the bishop about his creative ways of saying mass and eccentric sermons.

He just goes off book and makes shit up.

Yes. Oh, my God. I would die to see that. Why do you look so happy? I don't know. Because you know, why all my memories when you said, Monsignor, we had an old priest named Monsignor Tillman who was so boring, like he he would do the do the reading and then he would start the homily.

And you were just like like you couldn't focus because he was just like somebody who had been doing the same job for a long time. And it was just like basically had a rhythm, a very boring rhythm to their voice. I will say this so sorry to totally sidebar you, but I just had a recovered memory because I remember my mom telling me that in the early 70s, Monsignor Tillman, when he was still a priest, a crazy person, ran up and stabbed him during a during church one day and he survived it.

Holy shit. Isn't that amazing? So he's like he was like he was a total for everyone to fall asleep. Yeah.

He's just trying to keep everybody super calm at all times.

But it's it's the idea of a priest basically being super weird during a homily would be kind of fascinating because because it's like it's not like it's not like going to temple where it's like you interpret the Torah the way you want to interpret and tell stories. And, you know, it's like this is these are the prayers.

And this well, we have the same I mean, well, it's just it it's very formalized and very it's very stuffy and strict. And so the book literally, there's no improv in in the Catholic Church. They don't there's no standing Jesus, as far as I know. There's no. Yes.

And Jesus. Oh, my God. OK, sorry. That was no, I was never apologetic.

Sidebar. OK, that was amazing. So he goes off books, make shit up and then no other parishes offer him an assignment after he fucking blows all those other ones. So in ninety nine he immigrates to the US.

He's like, let's try out these idiots. Yeah. His first assignment as at St. John's Roman Catholic Church in Louisville, Kentucky, but he pisses off the senior pastor with his weird methods and ultimately transfers to the to St. Boniface Church in New York City, where we work just at. Yeah. In 1912. And he scandalized the pastor there by claiming to believe in free love.

So he was just like back then doing his thing and making like, yeah, no, they're still not OK with that. No.

This is where he meets our young Austrian housekeeper, Ana Mueller or Mueller.

She is gorgeous, these dark eyes, dark hair. She looks to me like like Casey, Willson's great grandmother. Oh, you know, from a happy ending. Yeah. Yeah. As a podcast bitch Sash said, just like this, really striking features. And she works in the rectory as the housekeeper. And in later conversations with alienists, which were old timey psych psychiatrists, Hans Schmidt claims to have heard a voice from God ordering him to love Anna.

So she first I know she first refuses his advances, but eventually they start having a sexual relationship. And at the same time that he's having an affair with a New York dentist named Ernest Mirit at the same time. So he's definitely down. He definitely believes in free love. Yeah, he's DTMF and Lico are doing it is.

Yes. Yeah.

Thank you. Later that year, Schmidt is transferred to the other church, St. Joseph's in Harlem. It's possible because someone at St. Boniface discovered his affair with Anna, but Schmidt and Anna continue their relationship and on February 26, 1913, they're, quote, married in a secret ceremony. But Schmidt performs it himself.

So it's not real. And there was three cups of blood involved.

Yeah, you throw one over your left shoulder, one of your right shoulder, and he writes their names on a marriage certificate and tells Anna that he's going to leave the priesthood for her.

He worked. Can I just say you are surrounded by darkness right now.

This happens every time. And I do this. You had this beautiful you like face the sunset, this beautiful, glowing sun in your face, you know, as the sun sets and then now your room is just encased in darkness.

And now I'm performing a blood ritual.

I mean, it looks good now and now the big reveal.

Oh, there we go. We have light. We're back. OK, great. So soon after Anna, who's 21 years old at this time, and Hans Schmidt, who's 31 years old at this time honored, tells our Anna tells Hornes that she's pregnant and he then realizes that this could be the thing that finally, you know, gets him kicked the fuck out of the church. And it's possible he forced her to get an abortion. We don't really know.

And he might have been doing them himself, actually. No, no, I know. And it's very dangerous and illegal at the time, because when it's illegal, it's dangerous friends, especially if you're a priest, it doesn't know what the fuck you're doing, right?

Yeah. And then of this. So then on the night of September 2nd, 1913, Hans Schmidt goes to the uptown apartment that he had rented for him and honor and he where they were posing as a married couple and he slashes her throat with a 12 inch butcher knife. He also drinks her blood, violates her and uses a hacksaw to dismember her. So he's totally out of his mind.

He's out of his fucking mind and always has been, it seems. Yeah. He wraps each section of her body in newspaper and puts her lower body in one of her pillow cases that had that monogrammed a on it. And he attaches those pieces of rock called schist and to the body parts. And then he boards a ferry seven different times, each time bringing a body part and dumping it overboard at different locations.

I know it's like this idea where it's the it's the thing that drives me nuts is people hiding behind religion because everybody looks at that priest and goes, well, sure, he's he's saying a bunch of crazy shit during the homily.

But, you know, he's a priest. So we have to listen to him. We have to listen to him right back then, even more so no one questioned, like the Catholic Church and priests, they had this sway over everyone. So I'm sure this young woman was like she was probably honored that he was paying attention to her.

And like, it's just and and meanwhile, he's totally out of his he's just psychotic problem.

Well, and it's the same thing to where they each place finds out that he's got issues and they and just like it, it would years later when the fucking sex scandal or the child molestation scandal comes out. Yeah. They just move around. Yes. So he never has to take responsibility. He goes on to hurt other people.

It's and they move they move him to pourer. Right. Churches and areas so that they you know, it's people with less sway, people with less. I mean it's just such a gross saw a terrible history.

It does make your son become a butcher always also that they make good money, OK, dumping it overboard on a different location. So so back to the arrest confesses to his illegal marriage with Anna and admits to killing her. He claims he did it because he loved her and says, quote, sacrifices should be consummated in blood.

No, calm down. No, asshole, just relax.

He also tells police that Saint Elizabeth of Hungary, his patron saint, had come to him one night and told him that a sacrifice must be done and then it must be done in blood, just the same as Abraham was ordered to slay Isaac. It's like you're just putting words together and fucking blaming it on God at this point. Yeah, Dick.

Yeah. And also, you can go through the Bible and find any kind of crazy story that can justify your bad behavior.

It's interesting that we see it a lot. Don't you see it a lot?

Also from Hungary.

What area in a small village? I didn't even bother to look at that. It goes all the time. That's crazy.

It goes all the way to the top of Hungary. So Hans Schmidt reveals that he had also been a medical student before he was ordained and he would often pose as a medical physician. To perform illegal abortions and a search of his apartment later turns up numerous business cards with pseudonyms and dozens of bottles of illegal medication. And they also find out that the dentist, he was having an affair with, Ernest Maaret, he he was trying to remove evidence of other illegal shit after Hohns got arrested.

Oh, so but then he quickly buckles and tells police that Schmidt had plotted to commit a string of murders and collect on the victim's life insurance policies. So like he'd go to these churches where he'd be assigned and the old people that he would like, you know, quote, fuckin put them out of their misery and then, you know, put himself on their life insurance. Well, that was just. But then I'm wrong, though, that he's not crazy.

Then he's just right. He's a cold blooded killer. He's not right. Not insanity. It's it's a plan.

Well, that's what the fucking trial's about. So the story becomes a huge front page news all over New York in the world the next immediately. And the scandal becomes this huge sensation. It's like a media circus. The press camped outside the courthouse during the trial, which starts on December 7th, 1913. So his guilt is in question because he admitted to everything. So his lawyers go for the insanity defense and claim that he was overwhelmed with blood lust and he was too insane to know right from wrong.

But you're right. He made a plan. That's yeah, it says a lot. They get his older sister to travel from Germany to testify that he heard voices from a young age and has a psych psychologist say that our psychology. Yes, psychologists say that his family tree showed up to 60 near or distant relatives who displayed signs of mental instability, which is like join the fucking club friend, cut.

It's not an excuse. There's lots of family trees. We're out here.

We're through a forest of all kinds of mental stuff.

And you kill anybody now you don't. After twenty three days of trial, the jury is deadlocked. Ten to two, two people think he is insane and the other ten are like, convict this fucker. So the judge has to declare a mistrial. And then meanwhile, the relentless media coverage leads to more details about his history and when they find out when in Louisville, where he was first assigned in the US in nineteen nine, the body of an eight year old girl named Alma Kellner had been found in the basement of St.

John's Parish, where he worked. Aha. The girl gone missing when Schmidt was in Louisville and her body was found dismembered, similar to Anna's and the body had been burned. So they aren't able to conclusively pin it on Schmidt, but they find a local janitor who's a French native named Joseph Wenling, and he's convicted and sentenced to life in prison for the murder based on circumstantial evidence. Oh, but I mean, we never know. We never find out for sure if he did it.

But it's such a coincidence. Yes. You know, so even further back in Schmidt's history, German police trace evidence of a murdered girl in Schmidt's hometown of Schoenburg that's possibly connected to him as well.

So who the fuck knows how many other victims this person had?

Oh, little baby priest creep. Yeah, little baby prescript. That sounds like a nursery rhyme. It's also like little doo scoop. A little bit.

A little maybe too many words at the opening of the retrial.

His attorney is like he I'm going to prove to you guys that this priest is insane. And Hans Schmidt jumps out of his chair and says, that's not true. I'm not insane or whatever. It's like do do yourself a fucking favor.

But no, he's a megalomaniac and can't can't even handle that.

So he's saying he's not smart. Exactly. So at the second trial, the judge advises the jury to really use their common sense. I think he's like the second time around. Can you fuck you to people who couldn't get it together last time? Please use common sense and says, bear in mind it isn't every form of mental unsoundness that excuses a crime. Hmm. Which I love that it's so true. So on February 5th, 1914, after three hours of deliberation, the jury finds Hans Schmidt guilty of first degree murder and he sentenced to death by electric chair.

His appeals are ultimately denied. And on February 18th, 1916, Hans Schmidt is put to death in the electric chair in New York's Sing Sing Prison. The last thing he says is, I ask forgiveness of all those I have injured or scandalized. And he becomes and remains the only Catholic priest to be executed for murder in the United States. And twenty one year old Anna and Mueller's head was never recovered and her remains were never claimed by anyone, sadly.

So she's buried in Potter's field. On Hart Island, oh, I know, it's so sad and so that is the story of the killer priest, Hans Schmidt, the first and only priest to be executed in the United States.

Whoa. I now want to read, like, a book about that guy. Yeah, I think that the one I said is the only one that's the one I could find. The trunk dripped blood. I want to read the other four. Yeah. Like what. It's five cases and I had never heard of that one.

I'm wondering what the other ones are. Yeah. That's, that's crazy. Yeah.

I can't believe they even back then because they were so religious. Everyone that they executed a priest is pretty big.

I mean, how can you not though. It's like he did it. Yeah. And same background. Yeah. They're probably like you're not a priest. Yeah. Really. With this stuff like that. Yeah. Oh man. That was great. Thank you. I've never heard of that.

Yeah. Me neither. Yeah. Thanks to history. Photographed on Instagram for letting me know about that one. Nice one. Nice job history photograph.

You better not be fucking making shit up like you better not be to 14 year old boys bored in a quarantine, just like posting pictures of the Titanic. This old boat was haunted.

What. OK, let's do fucking array's. Let's do it. You wanna go first? Sure. Can I do to really short ones as one should do whatever you want is your show.

This one's called. This one's from Ashley. Lovely eyes at the end. My fucking hurry. I shaved my head last week and I feel so free. And then the other one is from little underscore lion undestroyed underscore king can my fucking Eurabia that I finally officially quit my job at Cracker Barrel. Oh I mean yeah.

I just thought those were two perfect ones.

Those are good. Well I'm gonna start as a big one. This is from Chloe. My fucking horror is that I managed to end a very long, abusive relationship. What's crazy is that it's been a month and his two most recent exes reached out to me and validated everything that I had experienced and helped assure me that I am not, in fact, crazy. We've made a group chat and have been supporting each other and are planning on meeting up for drinks.

After all, this dies down, real queens fix each other's crowns. Oh, and also do not stand abusive pricks love the show and I can't begin to explain how much you have impacted my life. Stay sexy and don't let shitty exes win. Oh my God.

Isn't that the best. It's so good. Thank you. Thank you. That's great Chloe. Good job. I'm speechless. That's. Yeah I have chills. Yeah. Tell the tell us to tell those two other women we say hi as well.

Yeah. And great job. Yeah. OK, this one's from Kat Kaito Pancake on Instagram. Hello. MFM family in twenty nineteen. I finally quit the job that nearly destroyed me, both physically and mentally. Well at the same time I was continuing to deal with a past sexual assault. But at the end of March twenty twenty, I was able to buy my first house and complete a lifelong dream of being a homeowner. I just turned twenty six and I realize I'm very young, but I can bet that buying a house with the fuck you money you got from a shitty job feels good at any age.

Yeah.

Love to you all. And remember you're worth more than a paycheck. Love Kaito. Oh nice. Good job Kaito. Good job.

This is from Valaria.

One game it says, first of all I want to say love you guys, blah blah blah.

And I just finished listening to all the episodes so I'm officially caught up anyways. It's really long.

My fucking her is that my boyfriend and I have decided to start a little garden so that we don't have to leave the house as often to use veggies, that we would usually have to go to the store to buy. And it makes me happy. Hope you're all staying safe and healthy. Love and her dog.

Wait, she's like her dog is her boyfriend. OK, no judgments. Do what you want. They thing cute. This is from Katy Parrish. On April twenty fourth, our third baby boy was unexpectedly born six weeks early. Giving birth and having him spend time in the nick during this pandemic was surreal, stressful and exhausting. There were many new strict rules and because of social distancing, our friends and family couldn't help us in person. But they supported us in other ways and our doctors and nurses were sweet baby angels.

Whenever a covid patient got better and was discharged, they would play the Rocky theme song throughout the hospital.

No, no, no, no or no go at such a good idea. That's amazing. It was an amazing mood booster and gave us hope. After three weeks, we finally got to bring our munchkin home. I got to hold my baby and half his head while unmasked my.

Five and three year olds got to meet their new brother and our family is together safe at home. Oh, thank God. Yeah, what a what a fucking what a thing to go through during normal times. Yeah. And then add a pandemic for everyone. It's stressful. Yeah.

Yeah. Unbelievable. OK, this one is from walls and the subject line is queer in teen projects. Slash Hoorays.

OK, like it just start like a couple of stereotypical lesbians.

My girlfriend and I started on some home improvement projects during quarantine parentheses, but not before dying my hair blue and giving me an undercut.

Right. And right now we're hard at work redoing the back deck and it's tedious on your hands and knees work. But it's so satisfying to watch the slow but steady transformation in a time where everything is uncertain and my anxiety is back to a difficult to manage level. It's comforting to work on something tangible that also allows me to have a modicum of control, healthy coping for the win.

Also, my girlfriend has loved watching the videos of people, deep cleaning, really filthy car interiors, all types of flooring, exteriors of homes, shit like that.

And she's always wanted a pressure washer, which frankly is the cutest, purest thing in the whole world.

So this week I bought one for her and wow, the the absolute unbridled joy in her face and in her voice when I loaded it into the car and when we put it together and when she used it for the first time, made me so happy, fucking hurray for the happiness of loved ones.

I work for the state. I won't say which one, but COAS has hit us hard and going to zoom meetings with blue hair has been fucking her because the reactions are one of two extremes and excited. Hell yes, girl or a stuffy, mildly confused. Oh, and that's the whole thing.

That's a real slice of life. Thank you, Miles. Those hilarious.

Oh my God. I want to pressure washer. Is that weird?

It not at all. I have one that's like it's not an official one, but it's like the kind you get at the hardware store. It's actually like makes the stream from your hose even smaller and it is really satisfying. But that actually made somebody just recently retweeted that made me think of the there's a video of someone vacuuming that huge blue whale that's at the Museum of Natural History in New York City.

Why? Because it gets crazy dusty and I guess they vacuum it once a year.

And the video. So look it up if you like stuff like that, because the video is crazy satisfying to just watch the will go from, like kind of light brown to then you see the blue underneath.

It's really funny.

I have a feeling someday. Well, I don't know if it's a let me do this because he's so private, but I want to do like a garage makeover of our our fucking murder garage. Oh yeah. Turn it into like a cool. Well your just looks like everyone's garage. That's what they. Yeah.

It's every garage kind of in America unless you do a makeover. Right.

What if you just keep on tiling all the way out into the garage on the way out.

It's a cycle. It's just filled with tile.

What is this morrocco people are just like. Thanks guys, for listening.

We appreciate your support. We know this is a really fucking hard time for everyone. And there's confusion and scariness and stress and anxiety. And we are there with you. We are.

And I just want to say before we finish is a very sad thing. In the Los Angeles comedy community, a comic named Richard Bane died recently and a couple of days ago. And it's a huge loss, very surprising, very upsetting for a lot of people. And he was one of those kind of comics. I didn't know him. I wasn't personal friends with him. I mean, I knew him to say hi to, but I wasn't friends, friends with him.

So I but I am friends with a lot of people that were very close to him. And I, I am thinking about them a lot because it's bothered me so much hearing about it that I can't imagine what they're going through.

But it's weird because, like, he was one of those comics that was like such a down to his bones comedian. He was such a hilarious person and a really funny, fun person. Like he was always doing bits, but not in the super irritating way, like in the way of like having fun in the real world.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think when you lose a person like that, it's it it hits in this way where it along with everything else that's going on, it's very like jarring to reality because he seemed to be having such a great time. And I think he I think he did.

But also people are very complex, obviously, and there's lots, lots going on under the surface for all of us. But I just want to say that the he'll be remembered. And he was very, very deeply respected and admired and he.

He's just known as one of the funniest people, you know, in this scene, and so it's very sad. So I just want to take a second to to remember him well, but that's it for us. We will talk to you very soon. And in the meantime, stay strong and stay safe.

And, of course, most importantly, stay sexy and don't get murdered again by Elvis right here. You want a cookie? Who is alive? One good boy, Cookie.

OK, so Apple TV Plus's new crime drama is defending Jacob, and it follows an assistant D.A. whose life is turned upside down when his son is accused of murder.

So it stars Chris Evans, Michelle Dockery and Jayden Martel. In this limited series, they play a family whose fate hangs in the balance of the legal system.

Apple asked us to partner with them to create some special content to give our listeners a chance to put themselves in the barber family's shoes. And so what you're about to hear right now is George and I, we got the chance to talk to Michelle Dockery and Jayden Martell so they could tell us about what it was like to work on this show and all that behind the scenes stuff. It was super. We were super excited to talk to them. So here's a little bit of that conversation, you know, because there's this family goes through some really horrible things and has to make some really tough decisions.

Did you guys ever think, you know, as you were going through that, like in real life, what would I actually do as opposed to what my character is doing right now?

Yeah, with any character that you play, you always still question, you know, what would I do? You know, how would I react? I would probably be a little bit more like Andy. I would be going out of my way to, you know, find the person that did it. And it's definitely the thing that drew me to the character, because I initially read the first I can't remember how many we read Jiten, but it was like three or four initially.

And as I was reading it, I was thinking, OK, where's it going? Where does she stand on this? And then there's that scene with Bhogle where she, you know, she begins to question the past.

And there's the flashback of the, you know, tiny Jacob in the bowling alley, which is kind of strange to watch the very tiny child holding a bowling ball over the other kid's head, which is very strange.

If this is true, what did I do wrong? Because you're responsible for it. Well, how responsible is nature versus nurture in terms of isolating that situation? Yeah. So it would be such a huge question for for a mother. Yeah. Jaden, one of the one of the things we were talking about, jadedness is your how amazing you are. They were talking about how impressive it was to watch you walk that line where you're playing a character and you kind of you just have to seem innocent and guilty at the same time.

Kind of. Did you have any were there any tricks you were using to do that or anything that you were thinking of, particularly to play that because you did it so well?

Thank you. Yeah. So it was just either he's he's super innocent or he seems super normal. He has he loves his family. He plays video games. He has friends. So it was either he is a kid in this terrible situation or he's an incredible liar. Yeah. So it's just like it seems the same on the outside, but it just figuring out who he was internally.

You definitely play an angsty teen really. Well, did you guys before this have an interest in true crime?

Michelle, it seems like you might might like to show called my favorite murder.

It was something really drew me to the job actually was the genre that I love, a crime drama. And what I loved about this one is that it really focused so much on the family and how they deal with it, more so in some way than the whodunit part of the story.

Didn't any interest in true crime? Not really. But I was thinking of but I feel like I went through a long phase where I was really trying to figure out who killed Tupac and Biggie.

Like that was my true crime phase where I do research on on YouTube and. Yes. What do you think? Yeah. Any theories? I don't know.

I don't want to throw anybody that's pretty smart. That's smart, that's very smart. And we have some theories. We love to hear that you want to stop recording. You can go. Well, we always ask everybody if they have a hometown murder, which is like we for for George and I, we got interested in true crime kind of at young ages because we were exposed to. I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area, so there was like the trail side killer and there was there was lots of serial killers up there, actually.

So are there any can you remember any, like, hearing about crimes like that at a young age or anything that made an impression on you?

I don't. Well, I today I'm going to Google it today and find out if there's anything from my hometown and I have one, which I think you will. Interesting. This was all I could find, so I'm going to read it to you, Hastings said the swarm evicted from the Chelmno in Essex, which is where I'm from. After trying to drown it go up arguably one of the most notorious and violent swallows the group's sources said was finally evicted from the river, Chelmno, in 2010.

He attacked hundreds of walkers and canoeists during his time in the river, capsizing their boats. And Pechanga SingSing famously tried to drown a 13 year old girl off to. He forced her boat capsized before flapping his wings to keep her under the water.

Following a spate of offenses spite offenses, the rogue swan was finally captured and removed from the river in August 2010.

I think you just one hometown fellow at Apple TV on Instagram and Twitter to join the discussion each week.

They'll post a crucial question about that week's episode. Find out what you and other viewers would actually do and watch. Defending Jacob on Apple TV. Plus every Friday.

Goodbye.