This is exactly right. Catch HBO, Max's new limited series of murders at White House Farm, now streaming an infamous true crime story. Over 30 years ago, three generations of one family were murdered at their isolated farm in England. Initial evidence pointed the finger at the daughter of the family who had a history of mental illness. However, one detective refused to accept this as he dove deeper into the investigation. He uncovered new evidence that shed suspicion on a different family member.

This six part limited series uncovers the mystery behind what happened that fateful night. The murders at White House Farm now streaming only on Biomax. Goodbye. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder, that's Georgia Hard Start. That's Karen Kilgariff, and this is a true crime podcast with some other talking in it. Lots of other talking, mostly out there talking. I mean, no, not I think we're about half and half, depending on the week, depending on globally what's happening nationally.

And then, of course, locally, personally. Right. Mostly internally, internally, you know, spiritually.

How poor. Oh, thank you for asking. It was lovely. We we lightly celebrated, you know.

May I ask and I do apologize. Oh, yes.

No, I'm not going to be able to answer whatever it is. Well, no, no, it's a light one. OK, but is this the Atonement Week? Is this the atonement a holiday or is that so? I just had Rosh Hashanah, which is the new year. That's the New Year. Yeah.

And then I'm going to tell you all about what Yom Kippur is at the top of my head.

OK, it's weird because you're speaking kind of in a stilted way, but because it means a lot to me spiritually. I see. And so you're getting it emotional. You are hearing it is known as the Day of Atonement and it's actually carryings.

You might not know this, but it's the holiest of of day of the year in Judaism. That's why I'm trying to keep my voice down. Right. But I thank you for it. I appreciate you, you know, respecting my hardcore religion and I have nothing to atone for, so I'm not as familiar with it.

Oh, that must feel good. Know that I'm the only one.

You're just that one person that's kind of sin free, not unlike my lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Anything about him that's different. We'll talk about him on a different holiday weekend.

Is it rude to call it a holiday when instead of a religious holiday?

Not in America, it's not. I am so I'm so not Jewish that I never even took the days off of when I had a desk job. I wouldn't even take them off work because I'd be like, they know I'm faking it. It's like faking being sick. You're faking being a Jew.

You're not going to be able to accuse me of faking being a Jew. I'm doing that privately, right? Yeah. That's my personal life to fake. Looking back, I wish I had because, you know, I then later learned that, like even reformed Jews, it's like you take the day off work to to honor that holiday as you see fit. It doesn't have to be you and temple praying and shit. Heil, you can be like that.

Can take national popcorn day off. If they let me do whatever it takes to get out of that building, you do it in. It doesn't matter a man, your Lord and savior or overall candidate or Boxing Day.

I like maple syrup. I'll see you on Tuesday. Canadians love us. So we're basically Canadian.

We're very similar. Get that holiday girl. Well, thanks for asking.

Absolutely. But did you find your skeleton? What did you find your skeleton conversation like? No, I first of all, if I were to get that skeleton, I would absolutely give it to Katrina first because she was our lawyer is a fucking like a Wicken.

This, which you like is share.

She just has great taste in home decor and loves Halloween. Yes, but I sent most people saw this happen and we've already talked about it on at least one of our podcasts, but they sell not anymore on at Home Depot because they sold out, but for three hundred dollars. They had a 20 foot skeleton you could put in your front yard and somebody retweeted on Twitter. The second I put my eyes on it, something changed inside me. You could liken it to a religious experience.

You could liken it to love at first sight. Yeah, but I was overcome with this sense of security and a sense of that. Someone was going to defend me from all the terrible things in this world. And that was that 20 foot skeleton with light blue eyes.

I would like to I would like to talk to you and congratulate Sue in the buying department. It was like, hey, guys, I have this great idea. I found these like ten foot fucking glow in the dark eyeball skeletons and I could be great for Halloween. And everyone was like, that's stupid. So they sold out immediately. And she was like, what the fuck did I tell you guys in August? I was like, buy more.

Yes. She has been pitching this at like the Home Depot staff meetings. And everyone's like, oh my God, she's going to talk about she's going again. She's like, we I think we need to get ready.

And this year's Halloween because it's in the scariest year we've ever had. It needs to be the scariest Halloween over the top there meeting.

Well, we go big over the roof line. We have to go we sell it and drive the Mini Cooper. How are they even going to get at home? Well, they are smart people. They will figure it out.

They have the passion. If you're driving a Mini Cooper, you have the passion of Jason Bourne. You're going to figure out a way to get that motherfucking skeleton back to your house.

And they did. And they. Did, and now people are taking pictures of people who did and sending them to me. So who is getting a raise and we're really happy for her or she quit. She was like, oh, guess, guess what weekend it is, everybody. Yom Kippur, where you guys have to fucking atone for not believing in my skeleton idea. I got a call from Amazon, like, how about you come work here where you get fucking respected?

I don't know when I said no thank you because there's no worker's rights or any kind of insurance. They're evil and they actually never treat me well.

You know, I'm going go to Lowe's. It's black owned. It is very generously. We always had to put politics into it always. We are just a broken. No, we're not. We're the only there are the only record that's playing. That's right. What's important is what have you been watching on TV lately? OK, here we go.

Well, do we first talk about the new season of Fargo? Yes, let's do it. Season four of Fargo. We watched there's like two eight hour episodes just to, like, kick off with the whole time. I was like, wow, holy shit, holy shit. I love it. Do you love it? Or you love it so much? It's beautifully constructed. I the directing gets better every year. There was a couple moves they did at the beginning not to be this much of a nerd, but I was just I turned to my friend Charlie who was staying with me, who also works, and he actually works in movies.

And I was like, is it bigger? This is the director's like, that's good. And he's like, Oh yeah, yeah, it's so good. And everyone sort of I think from what I heard, Chris Rock was worrisome because he's not an actor. But I was like, they don't put people in this. Every time they put someone in it, you go, wow, I didn't know that they could act like that, you know, or they were that good of an actor or Ian McGregor could play that character.

So I kind of was hoping that Chris Rock would be good. Well, yeah.

And obviously he knows he has the will to succeed. But but he's also been in a lot of like what? He's not good. And grown ups three. Like, that's OK. So I think something like this where he goes, I had the nervousness too, because he overplays things like every stand up comic that ever does anything. It's like a lot to me. He got all eyes on me. To me, it really felt like he was in it to win an Emmy or because of the seriousness and the like.

He's doing something and it's cool.

Do you know who I am going to say that? I have not seen a movie that I have not liked this person in, and I'm going to fucking say that he's like maybe one of the greats is Jason Schwartzman, I swear to God, name a movie that wasn't entertaining that he's been in as much as I can't. I think people get annoyed by him because he plays kind of an annoying character sometimes, but he's always in really good movies and it can't stop incidents, you know?

No, no, no. He has good taste. And he's been like an IT boy type, right. Since because he's been in since he's a teen and he's like he's like, yeah, yeah. He's Hollywood star. He's like low key Hollywood royalty. He's always been a little bit of a comedy guy, but also a hipster guy. You know, he has he makes good decisions. And also, I have to say, when I first saw him kind of acting, he had his hair forward, but a hat on.

And I was like, what's happening with this hair? Because I didn't get what his part was. Yeah. And then when his hair when that hat was off and he has like the fifties gangster hair. Yeah. It worked for me, the whole situation. And he's like like a goofball. You can't say I like I like it. And then Jesse Buckley, I'm suddenly intrigued with her ever since I saw her like a month ago. And I'm thinking of ending things which she basically plays a similar unlikable character.

And she you have to see her in. And I recommend this to everybody all the time. But very few people listen to me on this one. But the Tom Hardy Effect series, taboo or too taboo, taboo. Taboo, she plays a woman in it. And so it's the seventeen hundreds in England or early. Eighteen hundreds Englin I can't remember but oh yeah. It's so good. And she is great. She's very smart.

Is she now thinking. I don't know. I don't think there's a part you're thinking of. Cheers. That's Diane from Cheers. That's Shelley Long. Very different actress, very different era. OK, but anyway it just a good thing if you're looking for something to watch and you like, if you like period pieces, if you like the good old snack. Tom Hardy, it has everything. Really love it. Love. Her name's Mary Crutchfield who is like the narrator and main characters.

Just I just want all her clothes and I just want to watch her and yes, she's it's so it's what a great entertaining role she's got. That's such like I can't it's so badass. It's so good. Also that ending. Oh my. Now I can't remember if it was the ending of the first episode or the second door gets kicked in with the pie.

Wait a second.

And when the girl, the actress who were just talking about the nurse is just standing in the window, there's another episode that's up. They put two episodes up. Shit ending for you. Yeah, that's great. That's what I'm doing after this happened. And hours of after this, the the ending of Episode one has such a scary, weird detail thing. That's one of my specific fears. That's very, very random. It fast talking nothing of like when the villain or the bad guys like I like to be just almost like speaking in tongues, but she's clearly talking to the house or.

And did you catch that? There was a guy standing in the street as the camera panned? I did. But OK, I'm going to just this is a little bit of a spoiler, but we know he's in it. At the end of the next episode. Surprise Timothy Olyphant fucking fade to black. That's it.

OK, can I tell my Timothy Olyphant story? Yeah. Do I know. Yes.

It was a it was at a party, a fancy party everybody goes to every year. That's that I'm friends with and my friend Tracy Koutsky was there with him because that shit they worked on the Santa Clarita diet together. OK, so he showed up and was with my friend and me and the casual Timothy Olyphant plus one.

No big deal.

They just walked up into our circle of talking and me and my friend Kevin, who used to watch Deadwood and like drink whiskey together and we have a long history just turned to each other. And he's like, oh, my God, he's coming over here right now, like, we're freaking out.

And then we basically were pretending to talk to each other while we eavesdropped on what he was saying to everybody other.

And eventually, you know, five minutes passed and that conversation wound down. And then we kind of very casually turned on group like we were going to join it again. And then he looked Timothy Olyphant looked at Kevin home. What are the what are you two doing over there? And it was because you were maybe casual, probably.

No, no, not at all. But also so exciting to have direct, focused attention from that man who has played some of the sexiest, yet scariest, most sociopathic characters in movies.

And then some of them like heroes to pretend to ignore him in the conversation. He just immediately was like, let's I'm talking at you. Let's do this. What are you guys doing? Yeah, exactly. I was just like, yes, thank you, sir. And then I conceptually, I can remember the names of actors are like in this in private conversation in public, which is our job. This is primarily actually private. Is this is this the one that goes out or the other one?

But in reality, in that situation where someone of his level, because I think he is a brilliant actor, I think he has nuts range and then all the time sexy, like no matter what he's doing. And to have I just immediately go kind of two D flat and just have nothing to say and can't think of.

Oh, I love that. I love it. I love you. Just laugh. I love when friends change and I'm with them around dudes and I just want to fuck with them so hard like Karen.

Karen, tell me about that time. You know that that's all then. It's just that because what then what are you going to do.

All my brain will let me do in that situation and say, what the fuck are you going to say in this moment that's going to make you seem anything more interesting than the average person, fucking the Container Store. But no, no, no. Was he tall? How tall was he? He was the same height as everyone else in the circle. OK, yeah, he was regular, like all all actors are. It's like you turned this this size down three.

So they're not knocks two. They're actually five, nine or ten which is five, nine or ten. And that's what this guy was.

It was like regular. Yeah, right. Whatever Manly height and range were kind of ready.

He was definitely wearing like a hennelly from what I remember. But that could also be what his costume was on.

Deadwood just fires a lot on the trailer wardrobe. Everyone was attracted to this man in our talking circle. That's all I have to say. I wasn't alone.

Well, Fargo reminds me of Boardwalk Empire a lot, and I'm really excited about it. Hated to see all those Jewish people get fucking mowed down. As a Jewish person. That was not my favorite thing to see. How about a wilderness of error on? Did you watch that? I haven't watched it yet. Did you watch it? Yes. And I was really nervous. So it's about it's like a documentary. I don't know if Errol Morris made it, but he's definitely interviewed in it.

Who wrote the book? Yes. And he's like, obsessed with this case. I am so obsessed with him. He is a fucking treasure. Yeah, I adore him. And the Jeffrey MacDonald case I've I covered for the show once and that before the show, my favorite part of the show might you might have heard of it. And so I feel like I know everything about it. All right. There's nothing you can tell me. There's no new details that they've.

Covered, maybe. And so I was a little worried, but it's fucking good, it is fucking good. And it is like I just forgot how crazy it is the father in law. So the Colette, the wife who was murdered, the father in law is the one who goes fucking nuts and originally was supporting Jeffrey MacDonald, saying, my son in law would never do this. And then he fucking and it's it's her stepdad. It's not even like which.

So you're so you're like, what's happening? But he's so passionate and he's like, I'm going to keep devotes his life to getting this fucking guy who killed your daughter and grandchildren. And it's like hard core man. It's good. I can't wait to watch it. I just it's the kind of thing it almost feels like end of semester, final kind of thing where it's like, here's the true crime case. What do you know about it? Well, what you know is wrong and then that's wrong, too.

It's like one of those things where, yeah, it's just kind of the deepest of dives into how how these cases get fucked up, how the system doesn't work.

To me, it's not about as innocent or guilty because the physical evidence he's guilty as fuck. What it is, is the trials and them trying to get justice afterwards. That is. Does Errol Morris think he's guilty or innocent? I don't know. He hasn't said. If he doesn't, I there's no way Morris thinks he's fucking innocent. I have no I'm guessing that. But like, you know, there's fibers underneath the wife's body that are clothing that the pajamas that Jeffrey MacDonald's were like, there's those things.

And there's, you know, everyone had a different blood type. So they know that the blood type B was in this room and it shouldn't fucking be there because he and the children are lying on their sides. And he said he gave them fucking mouth to mouth. And why are they on their sides if that's the case? You know, like shit like that, that's just like I fucking think he did it, but who knows?

Yeah, I'm I want to see it. And also, just because I everything else Errol Morris makes is innovative. It's fascinating. It's all about the study of human personality, the stuff that makes us feel like weirdos.

He's just like, but let's get into it. Yes. No, he's he's very good at what he does. I can't wait to watch. OK, that goes on my list. You definitely you guys love it. And then Fargo episode two.

God, what else really missed that one. So wait a second. They released two at the beginning to get you kind of going on your binge. So you know how they do that, where they're like the first two episodes, uncut or and whatever the fuck, I don't know, uncensored triple x Fargo.

I finally watched the final episode of Love Fraud.

Oh, dude. Right. The last OK for spoiler o rama. Obviously this entire section, but fucking twitchy migi over here.

What the he only he Liow.

Look, this is the thing that we do. I'm going to say this in the beginning of this. This is the thing that we do when we are quarter we are armchair quarterbacks about true crime, things we watch. Our opinion is not based in science. It's not based in it's based on things I overheard my mom say around the kitchen table.

You're a passionate fucking spewing out of our faces, that's all. It's your opinion. Yeah. And I will say this, that man talking to camera and only blinking with one eye like a heel, a monster telling her the wrong name multiple fucking times.

Did you notice that? Well, I thought he was holding her. He calls her Heidi a couple of times. He calls her the wrong name a couple fucking times and like, weird.

I would never have been to there to documentary filmmakers, would they? Maybe. OK, go on, just sing to sing.

Maybe, maybe. But the amount you're. But you're right in what I did notice the amount of times he used the name. Talk about a red flag. Do we ever talk about that is a red flag.

If someone you are trying to convince you of something and they repeat your name over, they start started with your name anyway. Yeah. Then it's like, okay, Karen, let me tell you about this thing I saw. Like, I don't need to I'm fucking addressing you, you know, I'm talking to you. You can feel the connection we have while we're speaking to each other, to each other. And, you know, when we are disengaged, I think people like that don't.

And also they're trying they're looping you back in to Georgia.

The thing I'm convincing you of Georgia, like pinning you down like an insect on a piece of paper is what he's picturing it as. Meanwhile, he's got this. He basically looked like a ghoul.

He looked like he was doing an impression of a cartoon of Dracula with his hands kind of wrapped around and under his chin, or this with his like his fingers under his chin, like weaved together like he's a fucking baby doll.

Take like a baby, getting his baby picture taken as a sixty year old man. It was just one of the weirdest. And then at the very end, how do you see this ending? He said to the interviewers, Oh, what do you got that? How did you guys see this ending? Oh, he says that. Yes, that's. And then when he gets out of jail and they have footage of him with.

With a new lady, oh, it's so hard to watch that because you're like, how does anyone but believe in love, believe in love ever again and trust ever again? Ever. How do you ever have an experience?

Well, I'll say this. If you're having an experience like that where someone wants to get married and start a restaurant with you within three weeks, run for the fucking hills, because what's about to hit you? You don't eat. You've never seen the likes of. Yeah. The problem is that you see shows like that and then you're in something with a person three months in really having a good time and going, when is the other shoe to drop?

Vince moved in with me three months into our relationship. So is that true? Yeah, I know. And I got engaged once three months into the relationship. I shouldn't. Looking back, I should have questioned that one.

Luckily, you ended up doing it because you didn't marry that guy. Right. And I and that was a bad thing to do. And he ended up being someone I wouldn't have married once. I knew him for a couple of years, you know what I mean? But that's not so. And Vince didn't have a it wasn't like Vince moved out of his. OK, so it's just hard to tell when you're younger and you fall in love immediately and it's passion, exciting.

Just, you know, just don't let that cloud your future judgment. So, like, just don't let your checking account get involved, that's all. And if they suggest it, say no.

And if and then you can see what that reaction is when I got married or fucking checking accounts weren't I just don't want to do that.

You know, it's not crucial. And also, it's nice that someone believes in your dreams and wants your dreams come true, your crab shack. But but a crab restaurant three thousand miles inland. Yeah.

If they really loved you, they would have said, we're not going to open that crab shack shows, you know, because it's fucking doing well. It's doing is it looked it up my covid. I mean, really in the body of the documentary, it did great. So the whole thing could have been fake. I will see you that.

Vince and I, we moved it. We moved quickly. We moved in three months into and then we didn't get married. We got married like three years. And so it wasn't like, look, none of us think it's going to work out and it's really expensive to live in what not.

I love that. You're just you want to come back around and make excuses why it was an OK idea for you guys. I think whatever you did work. I think you're OK. You're in the clear. Yes. Thank you. Finally, six years in, I can take a deep breath. You're waiting for me. What's that other for this podcast episodes. Right. Go upstairs in the whole fucking living room cleared out and Vince is gone.

And I was like, oh my God, it's cold. There's just one light bulb, just like in the in the wing. And Elvis is like, I tried to stop him, dude. I tried to get him to take me with him. He took he even took the whatsit. He took me the roast beast. He took the roast beast the way he took me me. I'm just explaining it to the Grinch. The biggest happy Yom Kippur to me, am I right?

Oh, well, this is the worst Yom Kippur is this Yom Kippur vacation weekend?

It's Tuesday, guys. What did I want?

Our good friend, Skip Hollingsworth, who is a true crime writer, whose stories we have used and featured and who has been on live shows with us on live show.

Well, your girls are just the greatest.

OK, so she started a new podcast called Tom Brown's Body. The people from Texas Monthly are putting out this podcast, which is so smart of them. They have so much amazing, true crime content. They have had such they've been paying great to crime writers for years and years and years, and they're having them tell their own stories. It's so cool. So listen to Tom Brown's body with which is, I guess, the Texas Monthly network. That's if it's his story, you know, it's going to be worth your time.

And we've met him. He's a gem. His daughter's a gem. We met them backstage in Texas, right in Dallas, right outside Dallas. Maybe I can't remember which one I miss traveling.

OK, I had I had some news, which is pretty exciting to be formed by a listener named Zara Sheldrake. Let us know.

She sent us a picture that our book is number one on Amazon in the pornography biography section w o what other news are just tweeted a picture and said I was thinking about buying this book, but now I'm not so sure. Oh my God, I don't know. Biography, pornography, biography section. So clearly we're either getting trolled, people are being funny. Who knows. I did talk about my nipples getting pierced it.

So there's definitely a lot of smut in that book for sure. But I feel like I'm sure Stormy Daniels has a book out that should be number one. Absolutely. I don't want to be going up against any of our sisters out there who are just trying to write their story and get the good word out. So. Put us back in. Wasn't it like anxiety, anxiety? We were in the like self-help and anxiety section, helping anxiety and complaining.

I think that's our salary juicing originally. Oh, that's right. So our paperback is paperback. Stay Sexy, Don't Get Murdered is coming out in May. And I think you can preorder right now, which I guess that's so far away. I don't understand books. You know, when it's coming out in May 20, I think your birthday. It's on my birthday. Twenty twenty one birthday. And it's going to have bonus content in it.

And you're like, well, when you find out, you're going to be stoked, you're going to we can't see you.

We're putting out a mini C.D. of sounds like this Timothy event is gonna come with us. What are you to talk about? And we're like, well, I don't even know you looking at me because you're not particularly jealous.

Sure.

But you should look at it because that's. How does it matter to.

I think, George, I don't mean to see that character as your backup singer character, because the way you're kind of like doing some shimmy shimmy, but then you're also you're it's a lead part, is that what you're singing is really telling a story. I don't know what to do. That was just now that was Georgia to small white wine, Italian white wine sparkler. You can cans in and I like her. Hey, hey, hey.

Tell your wife I'm Jason Goldman's wife in a movie. Can I please.

You know that the reason one of the reasons I was late to our recording this evening is because I had to update my phone because there's new a new set of emojis that are available now. And one of them is the Italian. Oh, my God. Fingers the Italian.

You're doing it right now. It's like you make your hand into a little tight little the Italian, I think they call them the kiss fingers. My Italian kids.

Oh, OK. You can have those now.

Thank God I've been wasting up just enough. Why I wait. The fact that I didn't lead with this is hilarious, but it's because it's a it's a corrections cordner. Oh my God. I have never seen more corrections on anything on this one.

And I saw it wrong. I heard what you meant to say. Thank you. I wear the same frame. Zoom works if you work it.

I was and and I'll tell you this, that I absolutely accept people tweeting at me letting me know when I make mistakes. It's a funny I want you to know any mistake.

It's a really this one's a funny mistake. But I just want you to know that if you're the first person who lets me know, if I find out from you personally that that I made this mistake any mistake, I hate you just so you know, so you can absolutely tell me and you can be good to know. You can try to hedge it and whatever. But I will absolutely look at your name. I will look at the avatar or whatever they call it, the icon that you use block and I will emotionally block you forever.

So, you know, so you are the first person. It was a guy who did it for.

So I was like the guy. I mean, that's a Robby Robby thank like the guy who let me know this first. I was positive he was it was like I, I was yes, of course.

Because I was so I remember doing that little speech and being so proud about running that string of words together. Tell everyone what it is, because I think I was trying to when I was explaining the terrible Elan School story last week, urge yes to Georgia. You were you were just like, so the kids are in charge. And I was like, yes, it was like a private for profit Lord of the Rings. Did you?

But I knew you met Lord of the Flies, the fly. And that's what I heard. I thank God for you currently. That's not what you said. That's it's not what I said. And it's not what a bunch of people who love to look for mistakes heard because they were just like I thought I'd simply die when I heard you say Lord of the Rings, which I supposed to. But individuals no one was explaining was so fucking hilarious, though.

Like, I got very funny when it was all kids for profit.

Lord of the Rings. You don't want to see that shit that's magical over there. That's not fucking gruesome and smelly. Well, it's a little smelly. It's smelly. I will say this any time when we haven't pre agreed that we're only going to do one story. And my story is nine pages long. I try to go as fast as I humanly can stop them, but like, we're only doing this one.

Yeah. So it's just like I was just like, no, I'm sure you have something to say. No job. I have to keep going and yeah. Anyway. Everybody for reminding me that my brain is slowly turning into Swiss cheese for comedy. OK, wait, there's a new show that I have to tell you about, OK? It's called Pottery Throwdown. Oh, and it's only on HBO, Max, which is really hard to access and infuriating that they don't just make it a regular streaming channel.

There's a pottery throwing competition show and it's British. So it's it's just like the Great British Bake Off big time, but it's a nine day in such a good way.

And then but also, have you ever considered making pottery like that? Did you really in high school?

They had fucking obviously lived in an affluent town in Irvine. Shockingly, there was a pottery class. And with this hippie fucking clearly stoner teacher. Did you get to work the.

Yeah. You got once you were like a junior, they let you use the wheel and it is exactly what you think it's going to be like on Ghost. It's fucking awesome. And there's places now around town that before covid that you can go and throw learn how to throw a pottery. It's really fun. Pretty easy.

It looks amazing. It doesn't seem easy at all. It's the stuff they were doing. It's not easy to make basic shit, to make complicated, beautiful stuff. It's hard, but like just to make I have my mom cleaned out her storage recently and was like, here's all your pottery from high school.

And I was like, I know, I know, I did.

I threw a lot of it away, which I felt sad about. But I kept one thing. It's really ugly.

But is it an ashtray made of coiled up snakes? That's my favorite pottery. That's what I can do.

You can I can roll out some clay into like eight snakes and then you call them all up and you smoke. Right.

And I think we need to get you a pottery wheel for your garage just so that Karen can, like, go live her best life, put on a Momo, go out. Fuck you.

You know what? Fuck you for the last three words that you just you said you wanted one.

Not a moment. I'm in a caftan and then a captain. Do you fuck that up really badly? So me living my best life is me going alone into my garage in a movie? Absolutely not.

I picture you living in Eugene, Oregon, and like a tone, a tone for what you've done. I will atone by telling you again that Kevin Bacon follows us on Instagram.

I just want to bring some light and some light love into your life. And you said when Kevin beautiful left turn, you know what?

There's nothing more satisfying to a person like myself who's lived in Hollywood for so long, has dreamed of Hollywood for so long, who's been who is a child of the eighties, then to have a podcast that someone the likes of the great Kevin Grace and Great or at least follows us on social media.

Maybe he doesn't listen to the podcast you don't follow like he follows my favorite murder, which is like I don't think you follow podcast unless you listen to them and maybe you follow whatever.

What if he is weird, but he's married to you? Probably, but he's married to Kyra Sedgwick. That's right. Who seems like a sweet baby angel. Like, how could you be weird? I mean, look, it wasn't a sincere question.

Well, it's I'm to be moved past that. But when you said I was going to wear a Momo. Yeah, there's a dog grooming contest show now to. Yes. Is it top dog and friend of the podcast. Just wrona from just running a grooming is one of the hosts judges. Oh cool. And she's awesome and she's really, really good at her job. She's a judge probably because the host is Matt Rogers, his comic. And then there's two judges and she's one of them and she's totally, definitely a friend of the family.

Nice.

What a family we're we're starting to build here. I like are you supposed to like your family? Because put in them what a magical assortment of family members.

I'm not used to the new sensation completely. For me, it's like I like my family.

No, I like it really quickly. Have you watched or did we already talk about stuff? We talked about this. Have you watched Pee Valley P Valley down in the valley where the girls and make it have, you know, show on stars. I believe it stands for Pussy Valley stripper strippers in a fictional town in Mississippi.

That sounds. It's so good. OK, it's OK. You have to see it.

And because you interpret and know because you're such a fan of is it called pole dancing or is it like is there some unbelievable pole dancing? It I love that shit, that shit where they one climbs up and they stand on the girl in the middle and then the girl underneath is pretending like she's standing on upside down that you so much.

That is acrobatics. That's it. It's amazing. Cirque du Soleil showed it like a crazy time and effort it takes and fucking what's it called when you have muscles on your stomach core or the core it takes to be able to do that is incredible. It's nuts.

Yeah, it's like and the show itself is fascinating and it's like it's really good.

Hardcore Whiskey Valley if you're looking for I'm so hardcore respectless like that's just it's unbelievable. Yeah. Oh. Can we do a merch corner real quick please.

We now have it for like a Halloween or if you're just here around Goth or a little spooky Halloween, we have spooky Elvis smirch.

It's this glow in the dark design of Elvis is like a zombie cat, right?

Would you say. Yeah. Or it is a little bit like black metal.

Yeah, I make oh we talk either Black Death, Death, dark black gothe popping metal topic.

As for the T-shirt, there's a three quarter sleeve fuckin zip up hoodie that Karen was like, I don't want, I want a hoodie with nothing on the back. And I have a fucking for once in my life, ladies.

OK, here's the logic that I use because everyone's like, no, we like we like a hoodie with a design on the back. And I was like great and and we do those. But every once in a while a guy like me wants to wear a black sweatshirt that doesn't have a big sign that says stare at my big wide back on it. And instead what I would like is plain black on the back, which they let me have on this sweatshirt.

And then on the front there is a glow in the dark. Elvis with with death metal eye makeup on.

And then in my head says my favorite murder, the it's a subtle goth death metal hoodie.

You know, it's a hoodie for when you you're just running to the store. But you also have a lot of heavy feeling. Right. And you don't have to compromise on that just because you're going to the store.

Now, get this sweatshirt, express yourself and also back me up that we don't always want some big old like know, add on the sweatshirt like this thing instead of my butt or whatever.

Enough. Look at this thing.

But also, while you're there, we have my favorite murder, black and white logo pin and the my favorite or stay sexy face mask. And both of the the proceeds for both of those got a really good places. So check those out as well.

But yes, you can, you can spend money on yourself and have it be going to great charity. Bring your big sister said you were a selfish bitch that one time in eighth grade. Prove wrong and hold on to it even tighter afterwards. Shove it in her face. Buy her a fucking pin and a mask that bit. Yeah, yeah. Look who's selfish now bitch.

You just got a pin and a mask, proceeds of which you. All right, so it's my turn this week. It's your turn this week. I am excited about this one thing, OK? Your shower is one of the few spaces that's truly yours, where you can go and take a moment of self care for your mind and body.

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Georgia, do you do you feel ready to deliver the solo story of this week? I'm ready.

It's a heavy hitter, but I think for me and it'll be for you, too, and a lot of people our age who I want to be like, I can't believe we haven't done this, but we haven't because it's hard, because this is a case that I think for a lot of us kind of made us into Martino's and like made us obsessed with true crime and really affected our our childhood, our lives, our parents lives. But there's a lot of twists and turns that I kind of haven't been following because it's so hard to talk about.

But this is the story of Adam Walsh.

Have you not done this before? I haven't. Or have I not done this book? I checked it. Did you know it was a hometown? No, no, no, no. There's but I may have done it at a live show and then it just never aired yet. Steven, with Steven, you let us know there was a listener, there was a listener mail, I know that happened early on, but did you do it in Florida or in Florida?

I don't think so. OK, you guys did a live show. I feel like that would stick out in episode four. You guys talk about it as part of a Lister story. So that's maybe what you're thinking of because we definitely didn't do it in Florida because we put out all the Florida episodes. Oh, OK.

Well, maybe then Ottis Toole might be the. I bet. I bet that's what it is. OK, good. Leave that amazing back. This is this is this is the behind the scenes of my favorite murder is. Oh my God. I think I did that one and I have a panic attack here.

Let me do that again. Here's my reaction. Oh yeah. The classics are like, oh, they're going there or whatever. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, so again, thank you. Obviously so much information to be gathered from this. I got information from a Time article by Olivia B. Waxman in this investigation Discovery article by Katherine Townsend, Miami Herald article by David Smiley and then Bizarre P.D.A. Wikipedia, an Up Rocks article by Daniel Figueiro, Palm Beach Post by David Smiley and Arthur Jay Harris.

There's a podcast called True Murder with a really interesting interview in it that I listen to before we get into how much this changed our entire fucking way of lives as people, right?

Yeah. Let's talk about Adam Walsh himself. So he was born on November 14th in nineteen seventy four. He's six years old at this point. We're talking about he's an only child and lives in Hollywood, Florida, with his parents, John and Riverway Walsh. He's a typical kid in the early eighties, obsessed with baseball and Star Wars. He's described as sweet and happy.

You know, at the time I'm younger than him. So I always thought of him as this big kid. But now that I have nephews, he's just a little kid, you know, he's a baby, six years old, a little bitty baby that's a baby. So July twenty seventh, nineteen eighty one. It's a typical summer day for Adam. He's on summer break before starting second grade. He's accompanying his mom on some errands. And around noon they end up at the Hollywood, Florida mall.

And everybody wants to check out some lamps that were for sale on Sears at Sears. So they go into Sears. And Adam spots a display in the toy department where the new Atari. Twenty six hundred video games are set up for kids to try. Remember all that, the kiosk like fucking do this.

Also Atari when Atari came out. So I'm basically I'm older than you guys and you know, he's older than you and I'm going to me, but he's like, right. But that you don't understand before video games. And then when video games came out, it was the strangest, most exciting thing. And then the fact that it was like Atari at home and then and then Atari basically it was like Pong at home and then Atari. And then it's like it just kept going up and getting by huge stride, like between Pong and Atari is a fucking it should be fifty years, but it's not.

So usually you can only play those games at like pizza arcades and shit pizza rates. It's like the idea that they had the things set up at Sears would be so exciting to a little kid free. It's not that many people have them. Yeah, it's a big and also this is just at the dawn of them realizing they should be marketing things to kids. Exactly. So it was everywhere in our culture. Yeah.

And like any normal little boy, he sees this display and he's like, I want to I want to try or I want to watch. Like, I just it doesn't matter. Like my brother would hang out at the fucking arcade all day. He's basically the same age as Adam and would just watch other kids play video games like that was enough for them. You know, it's so exciting. So there's a few older boys taking turns playing the game and Adam wants to watch.

So we're they told him to stay there while she it was like a couple aisles down. She's going to hop over a few departments over to check out the lamp. And that's a totally normal thing back then. And it doesn't seem that weird to me even now. You know, it's like stay here, watch this video game, watch these. There's other kids alone playing.

I'm literally three aisles over. I'll be back in ten minutes.

It's not you can't judge her for that, you know, especially back.

Not at all. Not especially. Not back then.

Yeah, not back then at all in these days because of this. But what happens to this boy literally would never happen. If you ask my sister when Norah was six, if she ever would go stay here, I'll be right back.

That would have never happened, primarily, like you say, because of this case. Right. While I was studying this, I text my sister and I was like, can you just do me a favor and never let the kids out of your fucking sight ever again? Please. Like, she's like, I'm not letting him out of my sight till he's twenty. She's like. Got it. Yeah, she's like, no shit, George, I love my child, parent, my children.

OK, sounds good. So Adam watches these older kids or goes to shop and around 12, 30 or so, Ravi finishes her shopping and goes back over to the Atari display. And when she gets there, Adam and the other boys are all gone.

And this is according to one story. If you ask other witnesses, there's a whole nother story of what actually happened.

She grabs a store manager and they find the security guard on duty. And the security guard tells her that an argument had broken out with the older boys over hers whose turn it was. So the security guard just kicked everyone out, was like, is your mom here? And they were like, no. And maybe Adam was too young to speak up and a little scared. So they all got kicked out of the store onto the sidewalk where the parking lot is.

Yeah. Which is only six years old. He's six years old. I think in my mind, I've always been like, what the fuck is wrong with that security guard that's so screwed up? I can't believe that happened. That never happened. Then while researching this, I find out that the security guard is a 17 year old girl. Right. It's like that's that's the reality of it. Yes. It almost sounds like she was a like a shot.

One of the secret shoppers looking for people stealing shit. It's not even like she's a security guard. So that person must have some huge guilt and it's clearly not her fault. Well, yeah. And also that I doubt they're training 17 year old security guards of any kind in any way to be handling like any kind of bullshit like this, like that's, you know, and and they are the way to handle it is if their parents aren't there and they can't get in trouble, kick them out like you did.

Right.

So by now, the kids are all outside and the Sears parking lot, and that's when they believe the older boys, his parents weren't there must have wandered off, leaving Adam outside by himself.

And so they begin searching the store for Adam. She's freaking out. Of course, she hasn't paged over the public address system multiple times. But after more than 90 minutes searching for him in the mall attatched mall, she turns up nothing. So she has them called the Hollywood police at one fifty five pm. Eventually, helicopter and ground searches ensue. And the whole town, I mean, you know, and Florida, I think back then, these kinds of things were local.

They weren't national yet. So in Hollywood and or out in the surrounding area, they're all freaking out. But just after four days, the two dozen police officers assigned to the case had basically, quote, hit a wall. There was just nothing.

But then on August 11th, the Walshes, who are frustrated at this point with the lack of progress in the case and hoping for any leads, they decide to go on Good Morning America, which is not a national show to appeal for help.

And the photo that they use of Adam, which we all fucking remember and is seared in our heads, he's adorable, freckle faced kid is missing two front teeth. He's holding a baseball bat and is like Little League pick. It's like the most. John says it's the most recent photo of him. So they use it and they and the photo becomes known across the country at this point and they announce one hundred thousand dollar reward for the return of the safe return of Adam.

But meanwhile and I hadn't known this that morning, John, and they had gotten a call while they're getting ready to go on Good Morning America at their New York hotel, buy from investigators, letting them know that it's just the night before a child's severed head had been found by fishermen floating in a drainage canal off the Florida Turnpike. Horrified, I know. So like they had to decide if they were going to come home to I.D. this or are they going to go on Good Morning America and try to get more traction because they were already unhappy with how the Hollywood Police Department was handling the case.

So they you know, I think we're like hoping it wasn't him. Let's go on anyways, because even if it is him, then we're still going to need any tips we can get. And also, so the canal was one hundred and about one hundred and twenty to one hundred thirty miles from Hollywood. So they were, I think, hoping it wasn't him.

So they go on the show and meanwhile send a family friend to I.D. the remains who was traumatized to this day. So sadly, the recovered remains are identified as Adams and the coroner ruled that the cause of death is expectation. And the state of the remains suggest Adam had died several days before the discovery of the head, most likely pretty close to when he disappeared, which we now know is pretty common for a child abductions by strangers. The rest of his body is never recovered.

The mobilization to find Adam Walsh, followed by the discovery of his murder, creates this massive fucking panic and alarm in the US about stranger danger. As I said, normally it was like if something happened in your county, you knew about it, everyone panicked in the county, but outside of it, no one had ever fucking heard about this kid who went missing. It wasn't a thing. But so because, you know, John and Rivera were so determined and had these connections, they were able to make it national, a national story.

But Adam isn't the first kid to disappear and cause panic in the American public. Two years before another six year old named Etan Patz had disappeared while walking the two blocks to his school bus stop in the Soho neighborhood of Manhattan. And it was the first time his mother had ever let him walk to the school bus stop.

That story is this.

Didn't you do Etan Patz or did I think I I think he's been in a bunch of stories we've done that. I don't think I mean, I.

I definitely know that one because it's so again, it's another one of these very early missing child cases that went national debt. And then the details of it are so incredibly tragic and just so difficult and unbearable sadness to them.

And I'll tell you what happened. I have him later in the story as well. But I think I wonder if, like, the fact that he was in Manhattan, which in the late 70s wasn't the safest place to be made. People nationally be like, well, I live in a small town.

I don't have to worry about stuff like that. So when the Adam Walsh goes missing from what was known as kind of a small town feel of Hollywood, people kind of paid more attention to it, which is super sad, you know what I mean?

Well, but is that true? Because I think it's it was John Walsh's connections that got him on national television. I think if the patsies could have I'm sure they were on local TV, but it's like that's an incredible connection to have that basically put you right to the front of the line. Right. In terms of crimes like that. Absolutely. So Etan became one of the first children to be profiled on the photo, the photo on a milk carton campaign of the early 80s, which is another cause for everyone freaking out about child abductions.

And the concept of stranger danger became all the rage with the idea that all adults not known to the child must be regarded as dangerous. And I watched some videos from back then of like stranger danger. And like they do these fake, you know, hey, kid, want to come play ball? And it's just like absurd and weird and like, not at all, but really fucking happens to children for the most part.

Yeah. Except for the differences in the 70s, there was no regard for children staying away from adults in any way. So basically they had to make a flip and make it be like, hey, can you stop trusting anyone that has a puppy that is asking for your help that like all that shit candy or wants to befriend you?

I understand, but I don't think this is the same as satanic panic because this was basically like we could be protecting our kids way better. And people should be because you shouldn't other adults shouldn't be able to hit your kids or discipline your kids. And it's all that kind of thing of people starting to really go, oh, yeah, no, how about I'll take care of my kids and you don't worry about it.

It's almost like there was an overcorrection which was OK because there was a lack of correction to begin with. Yeah, yeah. The overcorrection was then projecting this idea that the danger was everywhere.

And your children should never leave the house. Right. Right. And like even not to say women are can't be predators as well, but just like, you know, the like don't trust the librarian or, you know, that kind of thing of like an overcorrection.

Yeah. So kids were being taken to the police station to be fingerprinted. I know Vince told me when he was a kid and they went, which was like the early eighties and they went trick or treating. They every kid in town then had to take their candy to the police department to be what's it called, the x ray x ray to make sure there was no drugs or whatever. And it was just like this panic for sure. And also, I was thinking about the fact that in nineteen seventy nine in nineteen eighty, the Ted Bundy's trials were going on and those were like national and huge.

So people were realizing that the charming, attractive person who could easily lure women away was not, you know, was existed. He was a psychopath too. It wasn't just the fucking larche creepy dudes, you know, right? Yes, exactly. There's the wolf in sheep's clothing, everyone. Right. So I think people were just like suddenly stunned. So Etan's case would remain cold for decades. And meanwhile, Adam became the new poster child for activists that had started a movement in the nineteen seventies to stop, quote, child snatchers.

But those activists have focused their efforts on kids who were taken by a family member in a custody dispute or children who had run away from home, which is the main cause of kids going missing. In fact, in nineteen ninety, study of child abductions found that ninety nine percent of them were family related. But either way. They were frustrated by police department's sluggish responses to the case, you know, at the time, as you talked about, there was a 72 hour waiting period before they do anything to help find the kid like an eight year old, a 10 year old.

He's a runaway. We can't do anything for seventy two fucking hours. And once they did something, they wouldn't notify police. Even one town over have any coordinated search going on. And of course, we now know that if a child is actually taken by a predator, the first three to four hours are the most crucial or twenty four hours to the kid's safety. So John Innervate did personally believe that the Hollywood Police Department botched the treatment of Adam's disappearance.

At first they were fucking unhappy. And then the investigation into his murder, they thought was botched as well. And John refers to them as Keystone Cops in his book Tears of Rage, his first book about it in action August. Twenty seventh, after the discovery of the head, a Hollywood police said they are, quote, stumped, and they scaled back the investigation to two detectives saying, quote, It can't go on forever. So clearly they're inexperienced or they're insensitive or they're not good or they just don't want to ask for the help of the FBI, which is how they get involved.

Then in October of 1983, about a year and a half after Adam's disappearance, this fucking creepy drifter named Ottis Toole, who we talked about, who was by then an inmate in Florida in a Florida prison for two unrelated murders, he starts confessing to the kidnapping and murder of Adam Walsh.

Ottis Tool was born in nineteen forty seven and raised in Jacksonville, Florida. He reportedly had an IQ of seventy five. And by the time he confesses Ottis Toole had already been suspected of various murders, along with his accomplice, Henry Lee Lucas. I highly recommend the confession killer on Netflix because it'll show you what a fucking farce and what a complete fuckup this entire at to criminals. You know, it's just it's horrifying how how many cases they were able to confess to and got away with, even though it was false confessions.

So according to Tool's confession, which was made, by the way, the day after the made for TV movie about Adam Walsh came out. So basically he in prison, probably saw that movie, found out any details you could about the movie. And the next day I was like, oh, I did that one, too. Yeah. Starring Daniel J. Travanti and Jo Beth Williams. Based on Adam's kidnapping and murder, he thought he said he lured Adam away from the mall parking lot into his white 1971 Cadillac by offering him candy and toys, blah, blah, blah.

He says Adam came willingly, which you and I have seen fucking photos of Ottis Tool. That guy is terrifying. Yeah, there's no way it wouldn't have happened. And so and he says more about it. But I'm not going to repeat because I don't fucking believe it at all.

You know, it's very opportunistic. And it was that kind of thing where when he started talking, the cops that were trying to clear cases got so excited about clearing those cases that they were giving information. Yeah, it's yeah.

It's all in that it's confession killers, the confession killer. It's that confession killers mostly about Henry Lee Lucas, but it also talks about Ottis Toole and they're similar. I haven't seen that. But I know that that's.

Yeah, it's crazy. It's maddening. Yeah. They want to clear cases.

And and this is like this is once everyone all the other police departments had realized that they were being lied to and these cases were not actually done by these criminals like Hollywood, the Hollywood Florida Police Department, like the last ones to keep believing it. Yeah. So well, both Tooele and his sometimes lover and a cop accomplice, Henry Lee Lucas, they were notorious at claiming guilt for murders they could not feasibly even have committed. And this is like hundreds of murders they've confessed to.

They would both make corroborating statements for each other or try to outdo each other, or maybe they were trying to get into a mental institution instead of being in prison or just, you know, they get favors if they confess to things. So that's why they did it. Toole had originally said that both he and Henry Lee Lucas were responsible for Adam's murder, that they had committed it together until suddenly the investigators realized that Henry Lee Lucas had been locked up during the time that Adam disappeared.

It was literally impossible for him to be part of it.

So then to changed his story said that Henry Lee Lucas wasn't involved. They accepted it. And while investigators said that he knew details, only the killer could have known. We all know now how easy it is to inadvertently feed that info for the confession.

We all now know how easy it is to inadvertently feed that information so someone can confess to it. It's like it's the same thing as like. Cereal, when they're feeding fucking GAO details of the murder and rewarding him for getting it right. So going back to the interrogation transcripts, tool doesn't actually give any details. He doesn't give a single detail that hadn't already been made public.

So let's fucking clear it all up with DNA testing and and the blood that was actually found in Ottis Tools car, there is blood on the fucking ground in the car, lets DNA test it. Not possible because a few weeks after Tool's confession, police announced that they had lost his car that had been confiscated along with the bloodstained carpet that had been cut out from the car and the machete that Ottis Toole said he used to decapitate Adam. It's all missing.

It's gone. There's no DNA testing to be done. So police still spent months trying to connect him somehow with the murder and they couldn't. And a year later, after they'd already announced they had found the killer at a press conference, they dropped Tooele as a suspect completely. Wow. OK, so he's eventually he eventually retracts his confession, saying he had no involvement. He goes back and forth a few times. It's utter bullshit, changes a story constantly.

He's convicted of three counts of murder that are unrelated to Adam Walsh, his murder, and he sentenced to death, which was later commuted to life in prison. There are like witnesses saying placing him in the Hollywood area the days before Adam's disappearance. And supposedly his car was spotted at the mall around the time, although that isn't that's not corroborated until way after.

You know, years later and after his death in prison in nineteen ninety six from cirrhosis, his niece said that he had confessed to Adam's murder on his deathbed. Well, I think a lot of people believe that he did it.

I'm not one of them. I'm not you. So I know the police are. So there's another person who's become a suspect in a lot of people's minds in recent years, which is Jeffrey Dahmer. At first I was like, what the fuck are you talking? Like Jeffrey Dahmer. That's bananas. But even though I'm still I'm not totally convinced of this, the facts are really interesting. So a journalist named Arthur Jay Harris discovered that Dahmer had been living in Miami in March of 1981.

He had been discharged from the army due to alcoholism, and that puts him just 20 miles from Hollywood at the time of Adam's disappearance. And it turns out that Dahmer had actually been questioned for Adam's murder way back when. Which is like fucking crazy, right?

So when the picture so what happened was when the picture was in the newspapers in nineteen ninety one, when he had been arrested, you know, finally caught for all these fucking six murders, he had committed several witnesses who saw the photo, his his photo in the newspaper, who had been at the mall the day Adam had disappeared, contacted authorities. And we're like, that's the fucking guy I saw. They were like, remember the statement I gave you?

Remember how I told you it was this person that's fucking him, which is hard. Eyewitness statements, we know isn't totally reliable, but there were multiple people who did that. There's this dude named Willis Morgan and he wrote a book called Frustrated Witness. So he was at the he worked at a newspaper. It was his day off on Monday that Adam disappeared. He was at the Hollywood Mall in a Radio Shack and was approached by this creepy fucking dude, you know, who fit dormers description.

And he and this guy, Willis Morgan, kind of tailed him to be like, this guy's creeped out and he lost him when he went into the toy department at Sears. And then a couple days later, he goes to the police to tell them like he had seen, you know, because he works on table. He saw Adam had been kidnapped and he wanted to tell them about this fucking creepy guy he saw. And they were like, yeah, great, whatever.

We'll get back to you. They never contacted him again. And one man saw said that he saw a man fitting dormers description, throw a struggling kid into a blue van and sped off. And the blue van just keeps coming up the day after Adam's head had been found in the canal off the turnpike. So two long haul truckers, this guy, Dennis Bubb, and another guy named Clifford Raymi, they called authorities to let them know that a few days before the head had been found in the canal, they had both seen a blue van parked off that exact turnpike and the middle of the night.

And the guy, Dennis Bubb, drove by first and his trucker, what is it called? A semi? Yes, Dennis Bob drove by first in his semi and he saw a guy with a flashlight down near the canal. And he radioed in this guy, Clifford Ramie, who was like a mile behind him to be like, hey, let me know if you if you spot this van, because I think, you know, there's no cell phone signal.

Like, if this person is stranded, we'll rate will CB help or try to help him, whatever, you know, if he had mechanical problems. So Raymi said that when he. Driving by, he was focusing on the van to see if he needed help, and he said he didn't notice a flat tire, the hood wasn't up, you know, and and the lights weren't flashing, indicating something was wrong with the van.

And instead, he said he saw a white man leaning through the opening the slide door on the on the side and fumbling around with a white bucket. And both said that they had talked to Hollywood police. They called days after the head had been found, like knowing that this might be connected and their statements were dismissed. They never they said it has nothing to do with the case. They never got contacted again. And I listen to interviews with one of them.

And I mean, it sounds legitimate. It sounds like your dad fucking telling you what you saw. Yeah, but I mean, they didn't see anything that's actual, like, evidence. I mean, they saw a person down by the canal, but that person could have been fishing. I mean, it's not like they were like and we saw this child or something.

The thing that's the one problem thing is like fishing. It was the middle of the night and it was also not a fishing canal. I think it was just like a, you know, waste area. And that the the thing here to think about is the blue van, which is another through line with all of these people. So I'll get to the blue van in a second. When authorities questioned Dahmer, now that he's in custody in nineteen ninety one, he denies everything, including any access to this kind of, you know, any vehicle back when he lived in Miami.

And so involvement was ruled out by police. But it turns out when this journalist named Arthur Jay Harris does some digging later, he finds that Dahmer had been working in Miami at a sandwich shop. And at the time, he he got this corroborated by a few employees who had worked there, that there was a blue van like a like a store van for deliveries that employees were allowed to take. So multiple people drove this blue van.

And one of the truck drivers also stated that he thought the van he saw by the side of the canal had no front passenger seat and the sandwich shops, blue van had a milk crate instead of a passenger seat. Oh, remember those cars that had a fucking milk crate instead of a fucking passenger seat? Yeah. Yeah.

Remember those cars that your friends had in high school that had holes where you could see the ground passing underneath the car, had to make sure that you didn't get your foot near that like.

Yeah, here's the thing.

This is like there's so many things like this in true crime, I feel like and we've talked about a bunch of them, too, the the theories that want to connect big murders to other big murders. And it's a it's a thing much in the same way that the human eye sees faces in wood grains. It's that thing of like, what if this is all connected? What if it's one evil, what, eight three evils as pertains to five hundred thousand evils?

I totally get that. But also in the early 80s, late 70s, early 80s, lots of dudes looked like how creepy and weird Jeffrey Dahmer looked in the nineties, totally had transition fucking lenses and a part down the middle. And I think and the mustache and the mustache, it totally could have been him, too. I mean, like, who fucking knows? Who knows. And when you don't have, like, good evidence and good police work that's been left.

Yeah, yeah.

The point I think I to me dumber is more it makes more sense as a suspect than tool, but I don't think Dahmer actually did it. I think that it's a much simpler explanation. But I think for me, what I've learned from all this is the point is Ottis Toole is so not the person and the case has been closed and they said it's Ottis Toole. And I just don't think it is. And I think this whole thing about, look how much evidence there is against fucking Dahmer, it's more than fucking Ottis Toole.

Right. You know, if you want to clear it and actually have a little bit of a chain of evidence. But yeah, OK.

Anyway, and it's funny that you say that because about the about the what was not Roszak but the face. It's basically confirmation bias. That's when we can see faces, patterns and things we want pattern.

So there's a photo of autist tools like floorman in his car, the one that got lost, where there's like a bloodstain. And one of the one of the detectives insists that in the bloodstain you can see the imprint of Adam's face. And it's fucking not it's not that you can see it if you want to like I saw it. It's not what that is. And it's that confirmation bias of sea. Ottis Toole did it. It's a fucking Virgin Mary.

Got a piece of toast. Yes, right. Exactly. Where it's like if it's serving your narrative, easier to see things like that. And it's easier to you know, it's this this has happened before in true crime where it's like suddenly there's people that are within two hundred miles of another bad thing. It's like, well, you know. So and so lived there at that time. I mean, is it OK, let me keep going, OK?

OK, another and there are a couple of witnesses from that day at the mall who ID dolma as being at the scene of a there's a similar child abduction attempt at a different Florida mall two weeks earlier, and there's a police sketch of the suspect that, you know, like you said, it fucking could look like him. But a lot of people looked like him back then. But there are some similarities and it's a similar type of crime of trying to adopt abducted children.

So there's some fucking child abductor in the area at the time? Yes. Yes, I'm sure there was a lot. And also remember, one of dormers M.O. when he was caught was decapitation. He was found with 11 decapitated heads in his house. So that to me is like more than circumstantial.

A little bit. Well, it goes to an M.O. like lines things up a little more logically. But, yeah, it also doesn't I mean, like, it's it's so general totally. What's frustrating about all of it is that but like basically citizen detectives have to sit home and try to piece this puzzle, piece things together because they're just like it's a six year old child's murder. And they didn't they just didn't do it yesterday.

And we want things to be right with the world. Like we don't want six year olds to be fucking kidnapped and murdered. And if they are, then we want the fucking monsters brought to justice. But we don't believe it's happened.

I mean, all it drives me I knowing this story and knowing how he got kicked out of a Sears at six, all you want is that exterior video. But it was like probably before the time where every store had that. It's that kind of thing where, like, it's just so frustrating where how could this be? But it's like this was back in the time where there was big old loopholes.

Yeah, well, if you believe this domino theory, there isn't. They never actually says she she came back, he was gone and she found out they got kicked out. That did happen. But other there's like three witnesses who say they saw a kid who fit Adam's description being dragged out by a man who fit dormers description. So it might actually not be what had happened, depending on what fucking theory you believe and what timeline you believe. And if you believe the witnesses who all seem like they and the security guard, the 17 year old security guard didn't acknowledge that or admit that she thought it was Adam that she kicked out until 1996.

The whole time she was like, I don't think Adam was with them. It just it might not eat that part. It might not even be true.

Some guy I'm sorry, what what is this part of a man pulling him out? Because I. You haven't talked about that.

Yeah, because it's just it's like if you believe it's just depends on what you believe. So there's a couple people who saw, you know, first there's the guy that we talked about who saw him walking into the toy section of the Sears. And then there's a mother who saw a creepy man trying to talk to her kids near the Attari thing. There's another man who saw a man, you know, dragging a kid out of Sears. And the kid was saying, you're not my dad.

But the guy was like, maybe it's just his stepdad. And of course, she said that to your stepdad and like someone else saw know a man like that, throw a kid into a blue van that matched the description and never called and felt guilty about it. And someone else said almost rear ended a blue van in the parking lot that day and he was parked illegally. I almost feel like there's more evidence that says someone took him out of the store, then the security guard kicking him out of the store.

OK, that's the this is the agreed upon story is that they all got kicked out. And I have no fucking way of knowing if that's true or not. It seems to not matter because all these statements were dismissed.

I think another thing. So in the very beginning, so there was this young man in his 20s who had lived with the Walshes as like a you know, like help, not help, but like took care of the kids, was like a contractor, was like a family friend and lived with the Walshes for four years. And it came out that Riverhead had an affair with him and he got kicked out like the week before. It was really close with Adam.

And so they they, you know, focused on him as the possible kidnapper and killer, which I highly doubt he is. He passed lie detector tests. He had alibis. He was not the kind of person. So anything any kind of evidence of like someone at the mall that day being like, dude, I saw some creepy guy. I think back in nineteen eighty one, the investigators were like, we don't fucking care. It's not him.

We don't care about the van parked on the side of the fucking road and on the turnpike. That has nothing to do with this family friend having done it right.

So there's, there's a lot of uncorroborated witnesses and statements that now just sound like hearsay because they were never. But back then, right? Catch HBO, Max's new limited series, the murders at White House Farm, now streaming based on the shocking true story. In 1985, five family members were murdered at their isolated farm. The initial evidence pointed towards a murder suicide committed by one of the family members. However, one detective refused to accept this, diving deeper into the evidence and unraveling the mysterious layers of the murders at White House Farm screaming September 24th only on HBO Maczka.

Bonanos, an innocent man, gets hit by a flying pickle bananas. A Texas woman wakes up with a British accent, Bonanos a duck, enters a pub, drinks a beer and fights a dog. I'm Kurt Braunohler and I am Bananas.

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Now with more pizzazz, bananas. So the thing is that Dahmer was known for confessing to everything, so he repeatedly denied involvement in Adam's case, which the law enforcement are like, why would he lie about this one and not the other ones? He said, quote, I've told you everything, how I killed them, how I cook them, who I ate. Why wouldn't I tell you if I did someone else? But of course, everyone knows that having killed a very young child of six years old would have gotten probably a ton of shit from both the inmates and the guards when he went to prison.

I think that's really there's a lot to that, though. Is him basically being I've made these terrible confessions. Clearly, if I'm going to get it out, I'll just get it all out.

Now, why wouldn't I tell you, though, I didn't do that, but it doesn't mean. Yeah, I mean, again, I'd say it doesn't mean someone who didn't look a lot like that guy because it's just like just because we recognize one person as being this really bad person doesn't mean there's not another person somewhere else in the country. There probably is. That's really bad that look like that. You know, that also gives off like intense creepy vibes where many people were like, who was that guy in Sears that day?

Yeah, that's really telling another conspiracy with the case that you and I have talked about is that a lot of people don't think the head that was found belong to Adam because. Well, it is that of a young boy doesn't fit the description of Adam's teeth at the time. You know, he was missing both teeth. The photo of the head that they found has a tooth. I do think it is, Adam. I think that maybe some decomposition had gone on and the tooth adult tooth had ruptured.

I don't think it's I don't think it's anyone else. It was so close. There was a child his age missing and that was found within a month. You know, it just I can't imagine that's fucking not him, which is so sad.

But at the same time, it doesn't help that Arthur Jay Harris, that journalists found that the head was identified as ad as being Adam only by a single dental feeling that he had that Adam had in the back of his mouth in the same place where a lot of kids get a filling because they chew candy or whatever. Back right. Molar, baby, they go early. Yeah, right. So they use that. And no one ever consulted a forensic dentist and his dental records are now also missing.

Yeah. So there's no way to tell. So let's fast forward to the future a little bit. On December 16th, two thousand and eight Hollywood police chief Chad Wagner, who when he became police chief, had conducted an external review of the case. Well, he held a news conference with the Walshes present and he apologized to the Walshes for, quote, investigative mistakes that had transpired during the early years of the investigation. So he apologized to them. And in fact, the Walshes, this is so fucked up, they weren't allowed to have custody of their son's skull for twenty seven years because it was an open capital murder case.

So they had to have an empty casket funeral. It's just horrific. But also at the conference, Wagner announced that they were satisfied that with the evidence, which is all circumstantial at this point, and according to Willis Morgan, based only on retired Miami Beach Detective Sergeant Joe Matthews allegedly bias research in which he doesn't contact any of the witnesses from the Hollywood Mall, he does this huge research project but doesn't talk to any witnesses. And that's what they used to confirm, that they think that Ottis Toole is the murderer, period.

And the case is fucking closed. That's it. Yeah. So basically the easiest way possible. Right. And to do the actual work, there's no DNA to test. OK, both Walsh parents, though, believe that Ottis Tool is the murder of their son, which I think does lend a lot of like they they can't just want to close the case. I mean, I'm sure they do, but they wouldn't just fucking.

Who the fuck knows? You know, it's hard to question these two grieving parents.

Well, also, they might have learned or known something that never got out. They might be inside. They might have insight that we don't have, like especially after all this time.

Who knows? Who knows? Yeah, I feel like to me that's the biggest like the thing that convinces me most, if anything that he did it, is that they believe it more than anything else. So, of course, this case being so highly publicized, change the way parents kept track of their kids. This guy, Richard Moran, who's a criminologist at Mount Holyoke College, said that Adam's case, quote, created a nation of petrified kids and paranoid parents.

But meanwhile, the Walshes channeled their incredible grief into a lifetime of child advocacy. This the thought of how much grief they went through and how much grief they go through every time they choose to show up and discuss their son's murder.

It's not like they were like, we don't want to. With this anywhere we want to move on there, like let's fucking keep this here for almost 40 years. So just four days after their son's funeral, Adam's parents started the Adam Walsh Outreach Center for Missing Children. They also lobbied for the Missing Children's Act, which enacted in 1982, required entry of missing children into the FBI's National Crime Center database.

The NCIC, like there was no national fucking list of missing children at the time. It's just fucking willy nilly. Yeah. In 1984, the Walshes cofounded an organization to aid and comfort other families of missing children called the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which makes so much sense. You think of all the grief and horror the fucking parents who are missing their kid is going through. They need someone to advocate for them and now they have a group to do that.

It's so important. And in nineteen eighty eight, John Walsh began hosting the TV show America's Most Wanted, which the FBI credits for helping capture at least 17 of their 10 most wanted fugitives, and which I wrote turned an entire generation of kids into murder. Inose, while scaring the ever living shit out of us and convincing us we were constantly about to be kidnapped. And so we all memorized the hotline number. So now in nineteen eighty three, when that made for TV movie premiered, that Ottis Tool had probably seen thirty eight million viewers watched it on its first airing and each time it aired, the show was followed by pictures and descriptions of actual missing children, and a hotline was created to take calls regarding those kids.

And ultimately 13 of the fifty five children shown in the in the original broadcast were located. Wow. Yeah. Including Bone Thugs and Harmony rapper Busi Bone.

Busy Bone was missing Bizzy Bone in 1980. At four years old, he and his two sisters had been abducted by their mother's boyfriend and his missing photo was one of those shown and it was recognized by a neighbor and they were reunited with their fucking mother. Oh, my God. And I wrote, Thank God. I know I wrote a pub. Quizzes ever exist again. You got to remember this fucking fact. But also that's so dark and so dark.

Yeah, that would have been just like a I mean, that's that's that's the other thing too. Use at the beginning. But it's most kidnap children, it's family related, it's almost the entire majority. That doesn't mean that the person that took that child just because they're blood related isn't a scary, threatening, awful person or vice versa, where they're they accuse the mother of kidnapping the children, but actually they are trying to get out of a domestic situation.

So that's Bizzy Bone. You said 13 kids were recovered. And how many had they shown? 13. So the first there was three showings of the show. And so in the first showing, they showed different children every time they were showing. And so the first one they showed fifty five children and 13 of them were recovered. Oh, wow, that's good. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So in 1994, four big box and department stores began implementing Code Adam, which was used to mobilize all store clerks when a child is reported missing in the store, because back then when he went missing in Sears, they were like, what the fuck do you want us to do?

We can't do another. You know, they kept doing announcements over the P.A. system, but they were like, we can't keep doing, you know, nobody cared or knew there was no process set up where it's like the the entire store goes on lock. Yeah. Which is what they do now. Right. So I got I looked, of course, in our email and a murderer named Kerry sent a hometown in and she said, I started working at a retailer who adopted this code as a teenager.

And in our training we learned that when code atom blasts over the intercom, all associates stop what they're doing and head to the nearest exit to stop any child from exiting the building or anyone leaving with a child, she says. I still get teary eyed thinking about why this was put into place, but I'm very grateful for it. In the four years I worked there, it was Target. We stop to quote, almost abductions and countless little ones from walking right out the front automated doors to possibly be never seen again, which is amazing.

In 2003, Congress actually made it mandatory for all federal buildings to have code atom programs in effect. In 2006, the US Congress passed the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act, a bill which institutes a national database of convicted child molesters and increases penalties for sexual and violent offences against children. And as for Etan Patz, his disappearance in New York was cold for decades, but his case was reopened in 2010. And eventually his killer, who was a man named Pedro Hernandez, was found and he confessed.

And on February 14th, twenty seventeen, a jury found him guilty of murder and kidnapping and at the time. Of Etan's disappearance, it turns out that Hernandez was an 18 year old convenience store worker in a neighborhood bodega where it's thought that Etan had stopped on his walk to the bus stop for a soda. And Hernandez was sentenced to twenty five years to life in prison. So next July will mark 40 years since Adam Walsh was abducted. And now it's 40 fucking years, 40 years, 40 years, John.

And they are still married. They had three children after Adam's tragic murder. So John is now in his 70s and he hosts, along with the son Callahan investigation discovery in pursuit with John Walsh. So they're still trying to catch the bad guy. And Callahan said, quote, I watched my parents channel their emotion and their anger and their energy to make sure that there was a response mechanism for missing children because there was very little help at the time.

I watched my father go on to capture fugitive after a fugitive on America's Most Wanted. They never gave up hope. They never gave up on the fight. So I'm here following in their footsteps huge, huge shoes to fill, but trying to fight back and Adam's honor. And that is the disappearance and murder of Adam Walsh. God, I know. I know.

So old. So old and deep. Yeah, deep, deep. And also just terribly, terribly mishandled and so incredibly kind of unsatisfying in terms of discussing it as a case, because it's just like and now we we're I'll talk to you all the way up to this point. And then we hit a wall and now we're now this is theory. And now this is I mean, that idea where you're talking about, there's a witness statement saying a young child was being dragged out of the store, that there were it sounded like more than one person.

I don't it didn't sound like a ton. I saw a creepy guy that day. There was a there was an attempted abduction, one town over. Here's his sketch.

Like, yeah, do something all that, like all of that should have been, you know. Yeah. It's just so frustrating. It's funny because I was going to say I have the same frustration when you're when basically this feels like a cold case. That isn't a case, but it is a cold case. Knowing Ottis Tool, if I can, to confess to hundreds and hundreds of murders, he had nothing to do with like that. It's just so embarrassing.

It's just so. Yeah, yeah. It's just foster. And there's the question of like, is the evidence missing because they wanted to pin it on him. And so they just happen to not have it because it would prove otherwise.

Or I mean in nineteen eighty nine, did you know some fuckin rookie officer like steal the machete to show to his drinking buddies and did someone steal the like you know, I mean that's like the fun times. Right. Direction you could take it, but all those big pieces of evidence missing is, is at the very least you're doing your job terribly and and then at the most, a fucking conspiracy.

Yeah. No, there's no hard evidence. Right. The corner not signing off on having received the dental fucking exam.

And, you know, what's that like when I told you about, like, how he had Adam had been ID as the the head that was down based on the dental exam that's gone, you know, the like, I never actually signed off on a true autopsy. It was like a visual autopsy, not an actual you know, it's just shit like that that just you want to blame it on nineteen eighty one. But that's they're not fucking stupid people.

It's like they were a little. Yeah. There were processes in place they're supposed to and they're very similar. The ones we have now, they're not that different. So.

Yeah.

Yeah it is it it is. It's just a big question mark and it's you know like I, yes I, I understand the appeal of the Dalmar theory. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I bet if you're in Florida right now, you could walk out on the sidewalk and see like two dudes that look like Jeffrey Dahmer. I mean I think it's a look. Yeah, I bet you could look at the chair right on the couch and fucking someone look like Jeffrey Dahmer, like, why are you got this?

How come your transition lenses are gray again? I know you think things are in style now, but I know your members only your tan members only jackets like cool.

But I know you're all about convenience, but like question if your boyfriend thinks it's cool to dress like a fucking serial killer every time, should we do some a couple of hometowns just to light a couple fucking her. Yes. I'm sorry about fucking her ass. OK, here's my first one.

This is from Ollo. You did it. A former patient born extremely premature, weighing only a pound, just celebrated their first birthday. Fucking hurray for preemies, the strongest and most resilient humans ever.

Wow. Well, nice. So beautiful.

This one's on Instagram from age and eighty four.

My fucking hurry this week is that on Sunday, I got to help Burke County Rescue Squad rescue a dog stranded in a 30 inch sinkhole in in Pig's Pisgah National Forest, western North Carolina, we built a whole system and lowered a rescuer and a big bag of beef jerky down the hall, and he calm the dog and made a harness for him so we could haul him out of the hole.

We don't know how long he was down there, but as of today, he is healthy and doing well. And then she writes plug to support volunteer search and rescue organizations. They work hard to get lost and injured folks and pups out of the wilderness safely. Nice.

Oh, a dog in a hole in the sinkhole. They got him.

This one is from Amanda, Christine Rose. And it just says I'm staying in a tree house this weekend.

Yeah, that's the whole thing. But it's that kind of sounds fun. It's because she's going to stay the whole week. That's awesome. That's needed. Amanda right back. And let us know how your tree house went. I'd like to see some pics I realized when I realized that we haven't spent one night away from our house in twenty twenty. And so we're staying in a cabin next week and I'm so excited. Perfect. That's good. We'll change pace.

This is from Kelly Reichardt. Underscore Art. And it just says, leaving hospital today after breast cancer surgery.

Fucking hooray fucking hurray, girl. Congratulations. You did it. Invision Invision, big shields in front of you of strength and some pottery to get a momoh and throw some pottery for relaxation. OK, my last one's from Tara Loves Tea and it says, I met my current boyfriend because I started going on walks around my neighborhood due to covid and he is my neighbor.

We've never talked until I saw him leaving for work every morning. We connected and are now moving into a house together next month.

Oh. Your are looking to see what happened up there. What if in the beginning of this episode we were like, don't move, end up with someone after only three months?

Delete, delete, delete. Oh, my God. It's the perfect ending for, like, girl. You go for it. He's probably the best. He's definitely never bet on love fraud. But just watch that documentary. Google his ass.

Oh, my God, that's so cute. She's going to. I still believe in love. I still believe. I know. That's the cutest.

What if you're like your age, you're out there and you're wearing your sweatshirt with the thumb holes that keeps it pulling and doing your walk.

You're being very taking care of yourself.

And here comes a wonderful professional man leaving every morning for work during quarantine. Where do you work, sir? Hopefully outside.

Hopefully you're a park, you're a landscaper.

But she sees some Hawkeye leaving for work every day. Now it's love.

And thank God she's like, thank God I wore my mask that says, ask me about how cool I am because you like the cooler you. I mean, he was like, ask me, I'm out, I'm single. And he was like, Hey, are you single? You're I'm sorry.

Your landscape company is called Ask me if I'm single. OK, I guess that's the way you get.

All right. I mean, who are we to judge?

We're just who are we. So are Judge I Obadi. I bought roller skates on a fucking whim today. I mean, what are they. You're fucking her, right? Yeah, that's my fucking right. I, I'm not roller skates as a forty year old woman who fucking care I'm going to. Where do you or might you skate.

I'm going to I'm going to really awkwardly tight skate walk in front of my garage until I'm not terrified.

I'm skating like an old lady and they it's like nine feet or not.

And I'm going to meet my neighbors and it's going to say, ask me that I am and you're going to get, oh, my God, all these marriage proposals. But here comes Vince comes in once again proving letting him move in was a good idea.

Turns out he didn't steal all our furniture and maybe he was just clean it, getting it all cleaned at the cleaners. And now we have a lovely house. It's all fine. What's your fucking theret? Everything's fine. Well, my fucking ray is that my friend Charlie just came to stay with me because he was he had to quarantine before he started a movie job. And we had it was hilarious. It was so fun and we were so lazy.

It was like we are just justifying into the habit.

And it was really relaxing. And I realized, like in covid, I'm having a lot of weird reactions to things that aren't that big, that feel very big. And it's hard to it's hard to keep things rightsized where it's like it's just business. Nothing's going to happen right now. But, like, feels like, oh, this is it. We're done for there's a lot of those kind of things. And when there's one other person in the room and just go, is it me or is this person a total asshole?

And they're like, no, no, you're completely right.

That's all you need. Are you talking about me so? Well, sometimes it just depends on what we were talking about. Look, the time change.

Can I just night tonight. You know what I just decided here for you to decide us here for what, Vincent, are coming over on Sunday to distancing with you back into my home period. Yeah, you don't even if you're not over here, we're coming on Sunday. You and I are not spending enough time together and it's happening. No, you're right. Please. I would love it. It helps. It's so nice because, look, I can I'm very good at being with myself and I sure don't get, like, fraught, but it really is like what you're saying, just like you and me and Vince standing in the pool eight feet away from each other gabbin it up.

Yeah. It's like it's balm for the soul. It's fucking ask me about how cool I am time and it's going to look, you're both going to try to ask me to marry you.

I'm going to call the police on you because it's illegal to ask us if we're single and it's like, hey guys. Hey, you guys, this is uncomfortable. First of all, I need to I don't need to ask you.

I know you're not your mask doesn't make you not single.

That's. No, I'm sorry if I'm single.

Guys, thanks for listening. We hope you're fucking we hope you're living your best quarantine life, whatever that means for you.

All right, guys, we were we were trying to say goodbye, but now we really are saying goodbye. So stay healthy, stay indoors, wear a mask and stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Good bye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?