What does? And you and you, Karen, has a new obsession. I'd like to tell you guys about it, it's this fucking flag that the murdering us made us and she hasn't put it down since we got here. There's something about a flag, everybody. It doesn't matter what size it is. All right, everyone, get go, go. I feel like I went to Yale in the 50s. She suddenly started doing a fucking stage work.

What do they call it when you walk around the stage space, work out of nowhere, lab work. That was when we stopped doing live shows. Hi, everybody. Hi. Enough about us. Sorry about the flag, so I just don't like anything, so when I actually like something, it's so exciting. Everything sucks and I hate it. And then I'm like, oh, my God. Goodbye, goodbye. That was the flag that I'm drunk off that flag.

I'd like to address my tight marks on my legs because last thank you last last show, I was like these types there. So rather Spanx and tights and fishnets. And by the end of the show, they were like down to here. They had, like, rolled to here.

So I went backstage and just fucking ripped them off. Yes, but they cost too much to throw away. So I'm gonna meet them again someday, not on stage where I kept doing this thing. And I think I flashed every one of the two when I did it once.

So you're saving them for a special occasion, like at a party where you can pull them up the whole time, something like that.

Right, amongst friends. Yes. I also normally sorry, normally we wear fancy dresses because we get to do shows in these awesome theaters, so we like to dress for the occasion. When we arrived at the show tonight, I turn to Georgia very sincerely and said I forgot my dress, the hotel, my dress at the hotel.

And then I for a second, I think Vince was like, You want me to go back and get it? And then I was like, Oh, no, because I forgot to buy shoes entirely. So, like, even if you want to get the dress, I would have had to wear these with the dress and it all fell apart.

And then I was like, yeah, I'm going to wear this weird gap shirt. Then I was like, You're dressed like a goth already, right?

The only rule because there's no rules because we made it all up and you have to wear black. So fucking where were you? So I was still within the right in the boundaries of the contract and we had about outfit.

She was like, what if we were orange now? And I'm not kidding. You had to like nineteen seventies like sweater that had pink hearts on it and it looked like something with her face from Twin Peaks would be wearing. Audrey, I'm going to wear my dress still. But you're in black so you can totally wear it. Yeah.

No I think it worked out fine but I did leave on my shitty shoes in solidarity. Yeah. And for comfort reasons. So guys, take a look at these.

If you've never heard the podcast before, this is the kind of heart wrenching stuff we talk about the entire time. This is my favorite murder, the true crime comedy podcast. Yeah, welcome. That's Caracal again. And that's Georgiade Starr. Thank you. Do you think you will tell them the story about your discovery, Midge, Midge show, last show, you know how some episodes I think of something really stupid and then just scream it in the middle because I get so excited about it?

Well, this time, Carol telling her murder story and like something happened where someone was like and then they did this thing and it's like clearly I went to go red flag and then I just said it like a fucking idiot. Also didn't explain it right away. Like I was just waving the flag in a really inappropriate time. Wait a second. Red flag. I was just like, are you listening to me at all? We're supposed to be doing a show together.

County. I ate a county dog. Oh, that's right. This this brought I was in the hotel legitimate murder. Vince comes to that tilings like county dogs like that. And he found next to and I was like, go give it to Karen. And he goes, she doesn't want one. Well, hold on. No, I'm sorry. I did not mean to throw you under the bus. No, no, no, you didn't. But when I got the text from Vince, it was, do you want me to bring you a Coney dog?

Which to me, in my mind, I was like there at a Coney dog place together. And they're like wondering if they want to bring it back.

And then the idea of that is like, do you want to eat at Coney Dog alone in your hotel room, in the dark, like we know you always do not all have this apple. We didn't invite you to get the dog with us. It was a couples only Coney dog out, couples only Coney Dog, which is very rude. And then secondly, do you want to eat in the dark with the curtains closed? I mean, yes, the answer's yes, but I'm not going to tell you about it.

I'm going to pretend like I have some self control over my own. I mean, yeah, I wish you had just said in the text, I'm bringing Georgia and then I'd be like, fucking bring me three. Oh, man. It's still a motel room out in this paper bag the trash on it. You're welcome. When we get back, I mean, I just wanted you to describe to the people who are. I know. But, you know, Georgia used to be a host on the Food Network.

And so she's kind of yeah. She's kind of a food expert. And so I was like, I want you to tell me about the Coney Dog, but not normally.

I need you to tell me like you would if you were on your Food Network show and I was seven years training of the American Coney Dog in Detroit, Michigan, actually. Can you say it again with, say, American Coney Dog in Michigan? Say it again. It's OK now and then again and don't leave out the state, OK? That's like a weird controlling producer that's just trying to fuck with you. Right. And I and she's like the fucking flag.

You take a bite and you get this snap and then you just get the crunch of the onions and the soft, doughy, pillowy, bread, bread, hotdog bun.

And it's just Cherice. And for the next three to four days, your fingers smell like Coney Dog.

No joke. I've showered. I wash my hands multiple times because I have Abdeh and they still smell like Coney dogs. Is that the end of the Food Network segment? Yeah. You just go down and you start talking about all these weird things you do with your county dog. And this is why I got fired from the I think what of the Food Network? Like the first person in history, they fired me. Yeah, no, they didn't.

They're like, we usually don't do this.

We let people get super drunk on camera like you.

You got to go. Yeah, it was really good, you guys. And he wanted me to tell everyone that he would normally go to the other dog place, not American Lafayette, but they only accept cash and you didn't have cash on them. But apparently everyone gets angry with each other about what kind of place to go to. Yeah, it's very important. We understand. It's social.

It's good. I mean, it Vince claims to be from here. So to prove it can't just go to whatever county dog. Well, you know, he from here because he he'll hold up his hand and point to a place that he says we're going to.

But I fucking swear to God, every time he points at the same place fucking with me because I'm like, well, where are we going to go on this day? Because we came early to go on and he's like, well, so we're actually going to go here and like points out his hand. And I go, OK, oh, I have no fucking clue what he's talking about and I don't want to take them under my control. What?

OK, because, you know, we normally go here. Oh yeah.

The Mitton. The Mitton, the Mitton. I'm from Southern California. This is Southern California. We're from down here. You're right. We're from over here on the coast. Well, you're not down by the elbow. San Diego. I don't want to steal your joke, but this is where we're from, actually. From here. Right here. Right at the tip of that one is where I'm most used to being. That was Karen.

I want to take credit for that incredible joke. And I won't. I refuse to. Oh, we got a gift. Did you bring it? Oh, fuck. I didn't bring it to me. Bring that back. Is the bag there? No. OK, well, we'll just describe it, just describe it. Don't worry about it. No, no, no avance mental. No.

OK, so when the people that worked here came up and they said, I'm someone that's going to be at the next show, brought you this gift, but they're so excited, they need you to have it now. And he said and I they took they showed me a picture of it. So I knew what was in it. And he goes, and it's really awesome. And then we pull the tissue off the top of the bag and outcomes what looks kind of like a bowling trophy.

But that's been very, very adjusted and the bottom of it. So the experience, I thought the verbal was. So there it is. And on the bottom, it says the fucking word is trophy and there's some arms and some eyes and some hair trophies. This guy's carrying a knife and then he's got a head and his other hand, whoever made this? Oh, Julie Rose, Kelly Lynch, Melissa Lynch. It's the Lynch. Kelly Rose in the Lynch sisters delivering it once again.

I mean, if all gifts could help us this way, it's like send us a gift that that shows us how to correctly pronounce city names would be great. I don't know. It would be like dinner mats or something. That would be great. That wasn't me. That's amazing. Now we have a mnemonic aid.

Yeah.

Always remember trophy. Should we sit down? Wait.

First, we need to talk to the boyfriends who've been forced to come here, I think. I think it's important. There's some there's people who already don't know what's going on and we haven't even really talked about anything. And I know that that's very alienating. And now we're going to sit down and talk to crime and make jokes.

It's all very bewildering. And we understand we just know that you're our friends, too, and we care about the Oilers and stuff, whatever you like. We also like that to what, Oilers? The Oilers. The Lions. The Red Wings. It's right here, oh, it's here, it's right here. Then you go, oh, what was that? We were in some state and I was like, what's your what's your guys baseball team, the alligators or whatever.

What I said, like the snake, the rattlesnakes. There wasn't the rattlesnakes. It was not like I don't know where it doesn't exist. We don't know where you are anyhow. Just that's our way of saying hi. So I tend to be nice and then we insult you twice. That's the thing. This is a true crime comedy podcast. Also, when we sit down guys and ladies who don't know who we are, they're going to applaud.

And it's weird. And then when we say, what murders were you? What I don't and what we sit down and nothing happens and they're like, why are they warning us about things that don't I know? Well, you know, now, you know, to applaud that never happened before. And I just really wanted to be applauded. I said, Now, do you have to? You have to go. All right. I was pandering doesn't make a ton of sense.

We forgot something.

When he's not off stage. There was like a second wave of even more intense cheering, even pull a shirt up or something. But what's that? He's wearing my Spanx. He's like, George, I thought I'd be funny. Steven's here. Stephen is here. It's great to have Stephen at the live shows, he's a very grounding presence, we always like to have his mustache around. It's just nice. And then people get so genuinely excited for Steve, the podcast producer, it's like a whole new area of celebrity that that is not existed before.

No, we had no idea. And like, yeah, we're the way to go. Are you ready to do this thing? I'm ready. Yeah, it looks like it. Georgia's first this show. Yeah, I'm first it's her turn, so I hold the flag while it's my turn. This is the turn flag the whole time. Or I can hold it. And then when you're done, I'll go like this.

A flourish to show that I'm done. That's all I've ever wanted in my life. All right.

Well, this is the story of the death of Robin Boase, OK, July 30, 2002, in the town of Zeland, Michigan.

Oh, is this old Zeland? I've been to New Zealand.

I was like, if I say it's spelled L.A. If I say this wrong, you know, name like pronounce it differently, it's Cockshell and then I get yelled at, but it's spelled every time. Thank you. It's one hundred and eighty miles from here. Great. It's up over here. It's here. Great. It's here. It's the rare Pinki City that. No. Does anyone ever go like that. Wasn't actually a question. Thank you so much.

I found my in. Yes. This is like when you read the Torah you have to have like a special pointer because you got touch it. So now I can't read. You should go down to your local temple and be like, I have a new idea. You're going to love the Torah again. And they're like, you're not Jewish anymore. Get the fuck out of here. We haven't seen you for twenty five years. And we read your tweets.

Oh, my God, what if your home temple was like, we're so disappointed in your Twitter presence? I, I need you to love me, my mom. OK, how about one hundred and eighty miles? So the morning of July 2002, neighbors noticed smoke coming from the booze family residence. Both US and firefighters get to the house. They battle the flames and not realize that anyone was in the house. And then a short time later, they discovered the body of a 14 year old high school freshman, Robin Beauts, in the booze in her bedroom.

Robin died of smoke inhalation and what looked like a blast of fire that had caused her eyebrows and hairs to be singed. And she was face down inside her bedroom door. Karen, Robin's mother, was the last to leave that house that morning, around eight fifty five in the morning. And she went and picked up her friend to go shopping in Grand Rapids a few minutes before 9:00, which is everyone loves it at just five minutes before the fire started.

And when she picked up her friend a few minutes after Karen and her friend arrived at the shopping center in Grand Rapids around nine thirty, they receive a call informing Karen of the fire. So they rushed home. She has to be given a shot of Valium to keep her from running inside of the house. Yeah, she does. She knew her daughter was inside, of course, on the sidewalk. They give her a shot of Valium. It's not insane.

I mean, it's great. Yeah.

The idea that that woman even had to go through that. Yeah. She'd just be like, give me the belt. Yes.

Firefighters begin to search the house. Sorry.

Quick idea. Just EpiPen style value shots.

For that, like for the age we're in and the time we're in, and wouldn't it be nice lollypops, Valium, Lollipop, I think they have like crazy narcotic lollipops.

There was definitely an episode of intervention, I swear to God, where someone was eating Valium like they were just constantly sucking on Valium lollipops, which I didn't even know is a thing. I don't even know. They just don't work on me any kind of thing. I'm just like and I don't know how people can actually want to do that.

I mean, I feel like any pill that's lollipop size is going to work on me. I'm going to let it I'm going to let it.

Do you remember the one an intervention where the woman sat in a folding chair in her garage, smoking and taking pills all day? It that thing filled me with such intense anxiety because I was like, this is absolutely going to happen to me. There was like nothing about it that I couldn't see doing like you related to every little bitty part of it.

She couldn't smoke inside her own house, which is good. Yeah. So she'd go into the garage with the door shut and a folding one of those like from the drugstore folding chairs. And then people would have to come out and visit her in the garage while she was just fucking pills out and just like chain smoking, Virginia Slims. And I was like, this is my future. There's no way I'm not going to do this. I relate in every way to like when you're so overwhelmed that you're like, what about absolute stillness and being high all the time as a solution and a beach chair in a beach chair.

I'm going to go on. I play that woman got the help she needed. Let's just do this episode about intervention because I've got ten more I need to talk about.

There is one where the girls started drinking in the bathroom during the intervention. Do you remember that? She's like, hold on a second. Laughter She's fucking as if no one was going to know, oh, I'm such an alcoholic.

Think we were both addicts. We're not making fun, you know, living it. It's tough because a lot of times, like a flask, really does seem like the solution. And it is sometimes it is, as you said, the the dude who was going to a festival recently. And so he went, and you can't bring your own alcohol. And so he went to the festival grounds three weeks early and buried a bottle of vodka. What?

And everyone's like, yeah, guy. Good idea. And you're like, stop drinking, dude. No solution is to stop drinking, dude. When's the last time you paid a bill on time? But you're fucking burying a bottle three weeks earlier. Yeah, like no judgment. This guy clearly is smart and crafty. No use it. Good. I love him. Okay. Babies. All right. We're so valid. This is where that started.

Oh yeah. It started because an awful thing. Right. Let's get back. Yeah. Let's sink back down. We're sinking back. OK, so firefighters begin to search the house just to do a once around thinking obviously was an accident. But they have to do some investigation. They oh they found OK, I forgot to mention those parts.

So you know how I hate I hate false confession. Well, this is from the confession tapes. Oh, the new the TV show. Yeah, the new no. Let's see the show. Yeah. I meant to tell you guys that this case is from this case. OK, so I watch the whole thing about it and there's so they get into the house and they go into her room where most of the fire, you know, had happened out there in the hallway and in the middle.

And we a photo in the middle of the fucking room, there's a five gallon gas can in the middle of her bedroom. Here it is. Take a look at this motherfucking shit motherfucking. Oh, shit. In the middle. That's in the middle of her bedroom. Yeah. Why is it there? I kind of like that. They're like the black boxes of fires where you'd think that would burn really quickly because it's what's filled with gas. Right?

So it's like, no, I'm here to tell a story. Yeah. Guess what, you get away with shit.

And the reason I'm doing this case, even though I fucking false confessions stress me out so much that I had to turn the show off initially and have a panic attack real quick before I went back to it. See, and then your EpiPen Valium would have I mean, imagine where's my lollipop? The reason is because this is the only one where I was I'm so conflicted about what actually happened.

All the other ones, it was like, well, obviously this is a false confession and they didn't do it. This one I don't frickin know. And so I need your help with telling me why there's a fucking gas scam in the middle of the bedroom.

OK, in a minute. In the meantime. Oh, and in in the show, the guy, the firefighter who found the gas can was like, whoa, he picks it up. There's video of it, slashes it around. And he's like, my dad, who is the fire chief. I turn around and say to him, Oh, look at this. And he says, my dad said, throw it out the window.

But I knew that would be a bad idea. So I left it in the. They just moved on to the next scene and I was like, your dad should be fired because I'm going to be a bad idea. So I call the fire investigators and said, throw it out the window. I'm sure there's a reason for that. As the daughter of a fireman, I would like to say that's classic firemen move like get that thing out of here.

It's all very maybe he was like an ember is going to spark it again. Maybe it was actually really smart.

And the sun was kind of there might have been logic behind it, but that also could have been that thing where like if you have a parent who's a fireman, you know, like they will not turn the heater on in the winter.

Like there's just a certain personality style where it's like it's all very like, I'll take care of this, throw it out the window or just like, all right, I don't have to listen to you anymore, OK? I'm just I could be wrong about this guy.

We're usually not often that the skaters are called to the scene.

They initially and a lot of people still suspect that Robin committed suicide in this manner. But by the next day and initially investigators said, but by the next day, they brought in Karen, the mother, for questioning. She came in voluntarily, didn't ask for a lawyer, so it wasn't given her right Miranda rights. She was given a lie detector test, which she was told she failed miserably. So at this point, investigators mention the gas cans to her and she tells them that they've been missing for two weeks.

This is like their family scam. I don't know if that's a thing in Michigan.

It's it has its own chair. Every Thanksgiving. When you live here, you're a family guy. People here love. I miss that because I was talking so much about funny. Thanks. Thanks, sturgeons. So it had gone missing and there had been like a fire, like a little bonfire looking thing that's out in the backyard a couple of weeks before the fire in the house. So they were like maybe the neighborhood boys got it. And we're starting, you know, we're just having camping fires.

I don't know. But as soon as she as soon as they said to her there was so there was a missing Gascón. Karen says you didn't find it in her bedroom, did you?

But and that's one of the things that, like the prosecutors eventually like Will. But it's also like she knows her daughter died in the fire. She knows her as a Miskin gas can. And then they say to her, there was a missing gas. She's like putting it together. Worst case scenario. Right. So that is the obvious next step. So it's like frustrating that that OK, after sixteen hours of an investigation. Sixteen hours. I'm sorry.

Interrogation. Oh, you know what I mean. Yes. She insisted she didn't know anything that happened. They have all this video footage in the confession tapes. Her neighbor and friend, she went to church with him. She babysat his kids. Their kids went to school together and were friends. Chief only shows up to talk to her. He's the chief. So she's like the police chief.

The police chief? No, I thought maybe that fire chief had come back and be like, you know, I want to take that lie detector machine and throw it out the window.

So at this point, it's like ten hours into the gas station and she's starting to question herself. And you can see that she she's trying to help because she doesn't understand what's going on. And the thing the biggest thing to her is that she trusts the lie detector test more than she trusts her own memory. So she starts saying things like, I don't think I did it. I don't know if I don't think I did it. And when he walks in the room in the video, she goes, apparently I did it.

And he goes, Why? And she says, because of the lie detector test. So they're like, she did it and we need her to confess. So they're interrogating her. She doesn't believe her own memory and her fucking daughter, she's grieving her daughter from the line out of Ottenstein.

So they told her they found gas on her shoes and clothes, which I still don't know if it's true or not. They told her that her fingerprints on the gas can. They say tear gas can light. The fire started right when she left the house, which is true. I mean, it's crazy how quickly it started, but that's also exactly when if a person wanted to start it, they would wait till she left the house right. And that her husband was upset to thinking that maybe she knew more than she was saying.

So they're telling her this and then they do the old if you did do it, how would it have happened? Which is always the way to get people to explain a scenario. Then they buy. And she said, I don't know, maybe I maybe I dreamed it at some point. And then they said, if you did dream it, how would that have happened? Were you sleepwalking or in a dream state? How how about your unconscious mind?

And she starts to believe that she did it by mistake because she says there's no way she could have done it on purpose. So she has no idea. She says maybe she had gone into Robyn's room that morning. Here's a scenario as she slept to find the phone, saw the gas can, maybe she had stuck around to see what was in there and then maybe had lit a candle in her room.

Right. She's just trying to put something together. Yeah. Here's the only scenario that if if it was my fault, here's how that would have happened. And then so they find out that Karen and Robin had a strained, some say, stormy relationship ever since Robin turned 14, which is like how I always remember all the drugs we were talking about. I mean, hi, introduce me to the 14 year old that likes their mom and I'll be like, hey, Lyor, what's up?

Yeah, how's it going?

Also, like and we've talked about this on the podcast From The Age as a latchkey kid from the age of seven to 14, I played with Fire in the House constantly. That was kind of my pastime, how fun that was to light things on fire and see how it burned. Or like I once took tea and a paper towel and I wanted to smoke it and try to smoke in front of the. And it quickly caught on fire. You lit the bed on fire.

The fire when I was five. Everyone knows with her mom home, my mom was on the phone and she didn't pay enough attention to me, so I lit the bed on fire. It works. It works. We do what we must. We've got to smoke a cigarette t paper towels, cigarette.

I believe it was camomile.

It's ill. How do they know how to roll a god?

You know what I did in my bed? I used tape on it too. Yeah, I bet I tried to smoke a taped paper towel with loose t inside of it. Loose camomile tea, anything. Where were the parents.

OK, can, can Mr. O'Connell tell us, Jerry, what the fuck were you people doing in the eighties when you weren't raising all of your children? OK, can you please. So they said that fourteen she began to rebel and hang out with a bad crowd. Karen admits her husband. There were times that she hated Robin and that Robin had treated her like shit. How many times did I. Yeah, having a teenager.

It came out so Robin's diary was in the room and not burned. So in the diary, it turned out that Robin wrote about having called Child Protective Services on her father because he threw a piece of metal at her that didn't hit her on the head but was close to her head.

And the night before the fire, Wayne and Robin had gotten into a huge fight. So the family was supposed to go, I think, the next day or that weekend away for Memorial Weekend. And Robin didn't want to go. She was supposed to start a new job waitressing. So she wanted to come home early and they were having a huge fight over that. Like, who wants to go camping with your family when you're fourteen, right. And so or do anything with your fiance damn near them.

With them. Yeah. So she said that they got in a huge fight and that when the father had kicked in the door and she wrote in her diary that she was scared. So they go to trial. Here we go, John.

Deal with the mother's admission based on that interrogation. Yeah, based on the confession, do you know why they didn't look into the father and it was only the mother?

So this guy, John Dehghan, and he wrote the fire investigation book. He wrote it the book used in fire investigation.

I wrote He's the final word in fire investigation. What do you say about throwing stuff out the window? Is there is there a chapter about did anyone read the book? That's what the question is. Well, he refers to it as the Bible of fire investigations. And he's one of those characters that you and I would be like that. I was like this guy, you know what I mean? I'm sure he does admit later that he had to recount, recant his expert testimony in past cases, one of which because the data had changed, where three children were killed in a fire and the mother was charged with the murder based on his expert witness testimony.

Oh, yeah. So there we go.

OK, so they conclude, he concludes that the fire started. So here's what they think. The fire started right outside the bedroom in the hallway with the door almost closed that Karen have sprinkled gasoline all over the hallway, which was kind of like a closed off no window hallway, like, you know, like the nineteen eighties house, those kinds of things. Yeah. And that there was gasoline poured outside the door and then the gas kind of was left there.

And so what happened was in their mind that Robin woke up, saw smoke, so opened her bedroom door, at which time the oxygen fueled the fire and it exploded in her face was there saying because there was no there was no gasoline.

I don't know.

OK, it's just like there's so many sides to the story. David Smith, is the defense arson? The defense arson expert says there was no gasoline spread in the hallway at all. There was no traces of gasoline only in Robin's room, and that possibly Robin had spread the gasoline, intending to leave before it caught fire, maybe to try to get out of going out of town or to get back at her family or because she was pissed off. But maybe that ignited from a candle or a match.

And there was a photo. There's like matches all over her floor. Like she lit candles and incense and shit, as you do as a you meditate.

I tried to meditate. I don't know what meditating was. As a rebellious teen, you put the doors on and you meditate.

I'm my mom, OK, because they're OK. So here's what he said, and this is so fucked up. So there were no burns on the underside of her chin.

And he says that matches someone leaning a right handed person, leaning forward and looking down.

Yeah, because it protects here.

And then basically it just went up into her face. That's what they're saying, maybe by the fumes. So veteran fire dog Rhonda Firedog, Rhonda.

Oh, I wish I had a photo of her. I'm sorry. I bet she's a Dalmatian, which is not a black lab. Yeah. I don't know if they do Dalmatians anymore.

So Rhonda comes into the house and she Ronda's the dog zeroes in on an overturned chair in the parents room and that had traces of gasoline on it.

But no one else, none of the fire investigators had even notice if the dog hadn't been in there, they wouldn't have find that. Found that. And the other thing. And so weird. OK, so maybe Robin did accidently do it. And that's what I was thinking initially. But then I found out that Robin was in her underwear, had no shoes on, and I was thinking, wouldn't she, if she were planning on living this fire, wouldn't she have packed a bag, including her diary that was found out?

Like she wouldn't have let them know. She wouldn't have left it out.

We would have had a bag go bag, as they call it, and she would have had clothes on. So that's super weird. Also, during the polygraph test, Karen had admitted to having an affair a few years prior. The judge ruled it inadmissible. The jury had already heard it.

So that kind of gave them pause about her.

And then that turned Wayne against her husband. And he testified that she had snapped and he he sought a divorce from her.

During the trial, Karen was convicted of first degree murder for setting the fire. Wow. She was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

And a lot of the jurors said that what sold them was that John D. Hand, the fire investigator, book writer, was so like line by line of line of what exactly happened and was so sure of everything. He was saying that to them he had a good story, that his story was better. And the other dude, David Smith, was like, I'm not going to conclusively say anything because you just nobody knows. And so because there were other possibilities around that they didn't believe him.

Yeah. So sentenced to life in prison without parole, she has appealed the case to the point where she has no more appeals left. Then she maintains her innocence from prison. She's been there for fifteen years. She's sixty one years old now. And Kelly Lowenberg, who created the confession tapes and directs all the episodes, she's convinced that Karen didn't kill her daughter. The Innocence Project reports that twenty eight percent of its three hundred and fifty one clients who were convicted of crimes only to be exonerated by DNA involved false confessions.

I just don't know what happened. And it's driving me crazy as well as JonBenet things where it's like there's a couple different things that make sense to me and none of them make sense all the way. Yeah, you can you can kind of track any story line right now, because the fire expert reminds me of that blood spatter guy from the staircase. Totally where that guy is was like the same thing of talking very exacting and scientifically about this blood spatter only then a couple years later to have all of that evidence get overturned because it's total bullshit.

He was making shit up. He was literally like making making up these theories about blood spatter.

None of it was actually scientifically proven. Well, it's just so crazy that I don't want to I have an idea of what I think happened or like what like two scenarios that I think could have happened. But either way, it's like she's just reasonable doubt of these two these options that were given in the trial. Maybe even if I don't, I'm not convinced she didn't do it.

There's reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt. Yeah. Yeah. And also the worst part is then considering the fact if she truly is innocent, she lost her child, she lost her. She just basically lost everything is insane, circumstantial.

So you can waive that now. So that's the story.

Robyn goes, wow, that's rough. Yeah. All right, well, my murder, my murder, I'm going to talk about a man named LOEL Amos here from Detroit. Most of the research from the story I'm about to tell you, I got from a website called The Malefactors Register, and it was written by a guy named Mark Gribben. OK, so I'm going to take you now back to December 9th. Nineteen ninety four. Fifty two year old former general manager, Motors plant manager loyal Lowell Amos and his thirty seven year old wife, Roberta Mallory Amos are here in town attending a company executive party at the Athenian Hotel.

And they go back to their suite at twelve thirty and start doing Coke.

This is a very Coke based story. This episode is brought to you by drugs.

Remember that one on intervention where the guy was super addicted to Coke and he looked like a like a surfer, like it was he looked like he still had it together, but he slept on the roofs of different hotels that he snuck into. Wow. Again, I was sitting there going, I'm going to do this. Did you get one duvet? And then you get like a chaise lounge by the pool.

He would sleep by the pool. And then when people from the hotel found him, he looked legit enough.

So he'd be like, I'm in room for seventy three. And they'd be like, Sorry, sir, I just love sleeping under the stars and the water tower.

So they go back to their room to do coke with a female friend.

And this female friend later says that when she left the Amos's room at four thirty and depressing the conversations they were having and that non-smoking hotel room that they were absolutely smoking in the entire time is the worst because you just talk to people you would never normally talk to and you tried to start a band with them.

Yeah, it's it's insanity. All right. So she says, I absolutely see the face of, like, a child in the front row don't do drugs.

It's probably a gorgeous older lady who uses really good lotion. Don't worry about it. You don't know what you see. OK, so when this friend leaves, she later says that Roberta seemed tired and groggy, like she had been drinking and she was about to pass out, but that Lowell was jumpy and talkative, had a lot of ideas about restaurants.

He wanted to start, you know, coke stuff.

Four hours later, at eight thirty a.m., an executive named Bert Crabtree Classic, he's actually from Mad Men, but he went into this murder for civically. What's up?

So Bert gets a panicked phone call from Lowell, who's saying you have to come down to my room right now. He's freaking out. So Bert gets another. And I think these guys, it ended up being that they worked at this company that little Amos was associated with because I was like, who?

Who would if somebody called my hotel room after a party and was like, get down here, I'd be like, or go fuck yourself. There's all these options, because no matter I know the one I'm taking, like, are you out of your mind? The best possibility is he wants you to help him clean the room like that sucks. That's. Yeah, and that's best case scenario. Best case scenario is fucking beer can get down here right now and you're just like, I'll see you at the breakfast buffet.

And like, I was just at a crazy party. OK, so but Bert being the Bert Crabtree that he is, goes down with another employee or guest from that party named Daniel Perkasie, and they go down to Amos's room.

And when they get there, Lowell tells them Roberta died in an accident and he asked them for help cleaning up before the police. Koya which again, everything. Yeah.

But also also aid and abet this crime that may or may not have happened. Yeah. So, uh, Amos tells them he had gone to sleep, and when he woke up later, Roberta was dead. But they're both killed, by the way.

He explains this to him because he says so. He just says to them very coldly, she's lying there in the other room, cold as a mackerel.

Oh, oh, mackerels, cold. They I think they're quite cold when they come out of the stream. OK, yeah. It's a fish that's what. Oh, I mean, they're not fish. Don't get that. He's guilty. I guess that is a red flag. I think that is a stupid like that.

So then little Amos asks Daniel to take his sport coat for him. And so he's like, sounds great. Does he question it? Apparently grabs it. Throws it over. No, Dan, no. Britt would never fucking do that. Yeah. It's like I don't want your coat. I'm out of here. I've got a big project due tomorrow. So on his way, driving home, Daniel Perkasie looks inside the breast pocket of the coat and he finds a small black leather case.

And inside the case there's a syringe with no needle and a foul smelling washcloth, no foul smelling washcloth.

Like you don't want to hear those words.

No, no. And like, in what way, then I'm just like this, could it be mold? There's nothing worse when you go to wash your face and somebody had left it on the ground, then put in the washer, then left it in the washer for two days, then put it in the dryer. And you're like, sweet. It's every kind of mold now on my face.

And then there's also the thing of like a wash cloth that smells bad and then a foul smelling washcloth just sounds so much worse. I will foul smelling.

It smelled like the evil of men or make it smell like ducks. Get it. Yes. It's a foul pun. Yes. OK, give it up to her. I think I heard the first time that Mr. O'Connell laughed. Just that my dad, dad, dad joke of all time really was he was like that this and now I'm on board. Sweetie, do more duck jokes. That's what I came here for. I can't talk about nice things.

Why does he have a Southern accent? OK, later on, little Amos took his coat back and then after that, the leather, the small leather case and its contents disappeared.

OK, when he's been interviewed by police, Will Amos explains he and Roberta had engaged in sexual games involving cocaine. He claims that she was still doing it when he fell asleep. According to Kim, she couldn't snort Coke because she had a sinus problem and he said that she took it inside her body. And that's how that's the sexual games part, is that she took him through her vagina.

Yes. Oh, it's true. Somebody would for the vagina. That's very, very feminist of you.

But police are confused by this story because and as we all are, because they've been doing coke for four hours and he's like and then I fell asleep. No, you fucking didn't know you did it. Yeah. You to watch QVC before you would have fallen asleep. My friend doesn't happen then if he did fall asleep when Roberta started having seizures because she had, as he claimed, OD'd on Coke, that would have woken him up, probably. But none of that happened.

He was out like a light little baby. Don't wake the baby.

And then when the room's processed by crime scene investigators, they find coke on the bed linen, including the part that's tucked under the mattress. Yeah. So they're just like throwing it in the air. They're throwing it and snorting in the air because they're super rich. I don't know, like it's raining coke, everybody. It's truly snowing, finally. But I think also the tucked under the mattress thing is like they clean shit up and you knew that.

You knew that. Oh yeah. It's more fun to think that. It's more fun to think people throw cocaine up in the air to do it. Now I want to do that really bad study. Yeah, they cut it really big. Yeah. Like you're snorting your own ticker tape parade. Come on. OK, when the cops go to talk to Roberto's mother, Roberta's mother's like she does not do drugs. She's never done drugs in her life.

That's not her style. And the cops are like, mm hmm.

And but then when they the anonymous female friend that did the Coke with them for the first four hours, her account of Roberta being groggy and almost falling asleep is not what people act like. As you may or may not know when they're on cocaine.

They ever watch QVC. That's right. And they order and they order the order and they call again and say how much they like the necklace or the people that call to say how much they like the necklace. What? Oh, yeah, come on. They've got a book club diva on the line. How are you, like in your necklace? Ladies, I love this necklace. It goes right on my clavicle and it is unlike any necklace I've ever bought on television.

Did your husband buy it for you? For you?

No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm on so much coke. I bought it myself. I bought seven and I'm wearing all of them right now. And I'm looking in the phone also. In addition, so they all all of it smells bad to the cops, they're like, this guy is dirty and we know it smells foul.

It smells foul. It does. The cops like I smell a duck, they're using me. I smell a pig joke that's used against them and they're using against somebody else because that's how we make ourselves feel better. Yeah. Quack, quack, quack, quack, motherfucker. Yeah, but I said it quietly because I wasn't sure because it's so stupid of you. Oh, that's when you double down and say it loudly and I was all right, you'll get there.

OK, I'm going to have you doing like solid stand up assets by the end of this tour. Quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack motherfucker. OK. So they hate him. They're like, this guy's dirty work, we don't have any evidence to arrest him, we have to put him under surveillance.

Two days after his wife's death, LOL is seen having a one thousand dollar dinner with two women that he later then has menage a trois with two days after the death of 48 hours.

And he's like, this grief is killing me. I've got to eat and I got to fuck two women and like, immediately.

Wow. So then Roberto's autopsy report comes back and the Wayne County medical examiner reports that Roberta did have cocaine in her system, but the problem was she had 15 times the amount that's typically seen in a cocaine overdose.

She had so much cocaine in her system that half of the drugs hadn't even been broken down yet. There were also traces of cocaine found inside her vagina, but none on her body externally. Also, the bed sheets were slightly soiled, but her body was perfectly clean.

Forensic scientist Dr. Phil is good. Found lipstick and tooth marks on a pillowcase. What does that mean?

What does it mean?

That means someone fucking put a pillow over her face. Sorry. Oh, my God. But.

Roberta wasn't wearing makeup when the cops found her, and all of this adds up to this idea that her body was washed in between the time that she died, Burt and Dan didn't fucking help wash her body.

I don't know. I'm not sure. OK, but these are the theories where it's like there's nothing there's nothing on her outside.

She's completely very clean. So the police talk to Roberta's friends and find out that she was afraid of lool and she was planning to leave him because she knew he was seeing other women, but they couldn't figure out a motive because he didn't stand to gain anything financially from her death. So it wasn't a clear cut case until they start looking into LOEL Amos's past. Oh, OK.

Right. It turns out this wasn't the first time little Amus was a widower before Roberta.

He had been married to a woman named Carolyn Lawrence. They lived in Middletown, Indiana. And according to their friends, Lowell and Carolyn. That's right. Heads up Middletown. According to friends, Lowell and Carolyn argued frequently about doing the dishes about him not being home enough. No, she was mad at him.

But you're telling me that the things that I was like, so the fuck what I was doing a call and response and not letting you answer me about doing the dishes. No, I didn't know. Yeah, I was I think I was right to skip it.

She was mad at her husband because he kept taking out huge life insurance policies on on her.

Yeah, that would piss me off. I mean, I think I get pretty mad about it. Fuck, yeah. So when he refuses to cancel them, she ends up kicking him out. Yeah. Get away from me.

Good move. And that was in nineteen eighty seven for events like we actually can never take a life insurance altogether. Not sure if I would just rate the fuck out even if like legitimate. You're supposed to do that. Yeah. You have to according to your like accountants. Yeah. No we can't. You'll never do it.

I know I'm terrified.

Whatever I do it I want to say in front of everyone right now, if Karen takes the life insurance policy out on me, it's not my signature. OK, we'll see you guys all to testify at the trial. It's a pretty easy signature to for someone else, sign it.

OK, so Carolyn kicked them out of the house because the insurance problem that you know, that issue that you have with every boyfriend in this nineteen eighty seven lol goes and moves in with a seventy six year old mother, Mary Towles. A few weeks later, Mary is brought into the emergency room. There's no diagnosis. They send her home. Three days later she dies.

So Lowell calls Carolyn and is like my mother died. So she comes over to the house, his mother's house to go see him and she finds him throwing all of his belongings into a car. And when she asks him what he's doing, he says, I don't want anybody to know that I moved into my mother's house.

And she's like, That's what you're worried about, right? Yeah, that's that was his main concern.

So he didn't want to seem like a nerd.

So she lets him move back in with her. Yes.

I mean, so because his mother, Mary, was seventy six years old, no autopsies performed on her and the authorities presume that she died of natural causes.

Therefore, Lowell inherits more than a million dollars, more than a million. How the fuck?

So nine months later, Carolyn Amus is found dead in her bathroom. Lowell's statement to the police is that he had taken her a glass bottle of wine to the bathroom where she was blow drying her hair next to a full bathtub of water.

Why that? OK, I mean, go on. We've all seen the sticker on the blow dryer over all of our lives. I feel like all of our lives. We stared at that sticker and we looked at the sticker and said, who the fuck would blow dry their hair in the bathtub or near a bathtub full of water? Yeah, well, apparently he's claiming that she did the one thing that's like that's like flushing a feminine hygiene product down the toilet.

No one does it anymore. We've seen the signs.

God, people women are like, well, I didn't know there's a speaker in the bathroom. And girls like, wow. She starts crying. Oh, OK. So so later, little statement to the police. He finds her dead in the bath, apparently electrocuted and no cause of death is ever, ever determined. And the wine glass that he claimed to have brought up to her was not in the bathroom. It was down in the dishwasher, the dishwasher having been run.

So it was perfectly clean with not a trace of anything on it. LOL received eight hundred thousand dollars from her insurance policy. Holy shit. Yes.

So then in an M. Night Shyamalan style twist. Oh my God. Oh my God. Even further. But it turns out that Carolyn started out as Amos's mistress. He had been cheating on his first wife, Sandra, with Carolyn Mulish.

But in nineteen seventy nine Sandra was found dead in her bathroom.

Stop it. I can't. There's more papers. OK, so they lived in Anderson, Indiana, and a neighbor this year.

The same lady from before quit fucking cheering for cities. I don't mean it. So they had a neighbor when they lived in Anderson named Connie Alexander.

And she told police that on the night of Sandra's death, Sandra was at her house. They were drinking beer together, chatting, and Sandra went home around 11:00. And then a few hours later, there's a knock at the door. I'm scared. And Connie answers it.

It's Sandra's little children. And they say something's wrong with mommy. And the ambulance is stuck in the snow. So Connie's husband runs out, helps dig the ambulance out of the snow.

And and they they take Sandra to the hospital, but she dies wath.

So when Connie hears that she died or was dead, she goes over to Lola's house to check in on him and she finds him burning something in the fireplace, but she doesn't know what it is, lol.

Statements to the police at the time was that Sandra had mixed wine with a sedative, collapsed and hit her head in the bathroom. The cause of her death was ruled indeterminate, and Amos received a three hundred and fifty thousand dollar insurance payout. And then almost immediately, same year, he marries Carolyn.

So on November 8th, nineteen ninety six, little Amos was arrested for the murder of Roberta due to a nineteen ninety four change in Michigan law.

The prosecution was allowed to enter all of these previous facts about his life and his murders.

That's so amazing. And thank God. Yeah, so they could introduce all those facts into trial.

Prosecutors also argued that although Lowell lacked a financial motive for killing Roberta, as he had for his other three wives, his I mean, his two wives and his mother, his fucking own mother, his marriage was about to end.

Roberta actually had already bought her own house. And she had told family and friends that she wanted little out of her life. And the prosecution theorized that he killed her because he could not stand that rejection. He was always the one that was making the women go away. He was always the one that was in charge of that.

And the fact that somebody was leaving him and had already taken off. Yeah, they theorized that he he couldn't handle that. They said that he he first gave her a glass of wine with two crushed sedatives in it, which is reflective of that woman's story, that she seemed groggy.

And then when she passed out, he injected her vagina with the cocaine, dissolved in water and then smothered her with a pillow.

When she began to convulse on October twenty four nineteen ninety six, little Amos was convicted of premeditated murder and murder, using a toxic substance on her. November 4th, nineteen ninety six, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. When his sentence was read, he said to the judge, who is apparently a little bit young, if you can imagine the fucking brass balls on this guy. He says to the judge, you're a young judge.

I hope this is the first time and the last time you have to sentence an innocent man.

Oh, dear. But Judge Jeffrey Collins was unmoved, is what this article said. He described Amos as a dangerous killer without a conscience. And he was quoted as saying, Thank God for the safety of our community. You will be locked up for the rest of your natural days.

No charges were ever brought in the cases of Mary Tolls, Carolyn Lawrence or Sandra Heard, and if you want to see a dramatized version of the story I just told you there, it was the subject of a twenty six Lifetime movie called Black Widow or Little Amos, everybody.

Wow. It's of. If he's talking about insurance, that's a red flag, look out if he keeps on handing you glasses of wine with white shit in it, that's a red flag. There's no tune to this song. I'm just I'm working. I'm improving it. If the mortar and pestle is always in the dishwasher, that's a big red flag right there. You know what I'm saying? If he kills his mother, that's a red flag. This is true, this is true.

Hey, it's ivory tower murder. I am in a very special moment. I get a chance to see you all the same. I to someone, this doesn't happen a lot. I wanted this better be good for a certain kind of way. I'm sorry. Behind you. Yeah. Yeah. To be concise. No, no, no, no. But maybe both of you. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yes. Yes. Over here.

Over here, did you say seven people this way? Yeah, no, no, no, you're doing this again. I'm sorry. This is why I don't do this. I'm sorry, I'm going to hug her after the show. Hi, what's your name? Hi, Crystal. Over here is that Crystal. You have to take the interstate, come out here. Are there fabulous paths? Hi. Hi. Hi, Crystal. Where are you from?

I'm from Detroit. Yeah. What's the stuff that's on the thing where the that just put on your pants. Yep. That's where Vince always points. So down there. Right down. OK. God, everyone knows you are here. You are here. OK. OK. What's your hometown. So this is a family murder. Oh wow.

One she goes. I know. OK, so it's two murders over two years.

Well several murders. Whatever the case, two or so I thought you said seven. So it starts with one year. My cousin on his birthday. He's like an amazing artist. Whatever he's celebrating, it's amazing. And then my cousin, who's a police officer, gets a call like, oh, there's a body in the river.

And she goes, investigate. They pulled the body out. It's my cousin.

Oh, wait, so so the police officer is my cousin and then had to pull back on cousin is also our sorry in your police officer. Cousin is a woman. Yes. That's awesome. OK, yes. That's just. That's exciting. That's exciting. That is. But also this is horrible. OK, I'm sorry. So they pull them out. They don't know if it can happen. He's dead. It's awful. His roommate was with him.

He's like, they're like what happened. He's like we were drinking. And then he's like, I want to hang up on myself. So he leaves and then he's dead. So relying on the same sketchy whatever the case, my uncle, his dad is like, you know what, it's hard. I don't want to fuck with it. Just let's move on. The next year, my cousin, his brother of the dead person, he's going to college.

He's getting his master's degree. He's in Atlanta. He comes back. He's like, this is weird. Whatever the case, he does whatever he needs to do, he gets a CCW for some random reason that what's a concealed weapons license? Oh, OK. So now when you say that he says this is weird, like he his life was weird for him. No, he wanted my uncle to investigate what happened. I got it with his brother, OK, but my uncle was like, I'm sad.

My son. Yeah. He just wants to ignore. I just want to move on. It's over. I don't want to investigate anymore. So my cousin's like, whatever. So years later I'm at this party, not years later. A year later, I'm at a party randomly for someone I don't know. That's neither here nor there. Was it fun? It was fun. It was a surprise party for somebody I didn't know so well. Like, surprised I'm here now.

I don't know. It's kind of my friends, like, oh, we're having a party, but only four people are here. Can you come? No, it was free drinks and food. Oh, I can. OK, so anyway, so I came. It was fun. We had drinks and I'm leaving and my uncle's and she's like, hey, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm driving to a date. She's like, well can you pull over?

And I'm like, what do you mean. She's like, no, seriously, pull over.

So pull over. Turns out my other cousin, the brother of the person who died the year before that morning, it's a Sunday. It's three days after Thanksgiving. He goes to the neighbor's house. He's like, knocks on the door. The neighbor wife answers. She's like, what's going on? He's like, hey, turn that music down. She's like, we're not playing any music. He's like, yes, you are. So she's like, no, I'm not.

She goes to get her husband. Her husband comes back.

My cousin shoots the husband down on the front porch. Oh, my. So then he goes back into their house and he shoots my uncle. The uncle who didn't want to investigate, the uncle who didn't want to be his father, his father father kills him. So the wife obviously called the police.

My cousin goes into the basement. They're in a standoff with the police for hours, and then my cousin kills himself.

Wow. That's fucking awful. So my my aunt telling me this on the phone while I'm on the way to a date with this dude, they canceled.

No, the day wasn't. Calm down. Calm down here. I really need a drink that. OK, that's fair. I'm not married, I'm OK. Oh, my God. OK.

It was the summer of Steven's. Not that Steve and I. I dated an old Steven, a married, a young son. And then the third Steven that I was going in the day with. I found out that night was fucking Mary. Who was the bad guy. Was it Friday the 13th? Oh, my God. I knew it was Thanksgiving. Is their investigation into the first cousin or is it just we never really figured out what happened.

He just. I'm so sorry. Yeah, it was really sad, but. Yeah. Oh, I hope you're OK with that, Steven.

To make matters worse. So that part was good, Chris. So, I mean, that was very healthy. It was. And we commend you for that. Yeah. Silver lining this shit. Yeah. I mean, that's amazing to me. Oh, my God. I mean. Right, I'll feel that. Yeah. You don't get to keep that. That's your prize for having a good hometown martyr. Crystal, I want to apologize for the fact that I clearly have a pointing issue.

I'm just this is how I point and one person and I apologize to the wonderful ladies. I point I clearly pointed out, you know, I was a great pick. You nailed it. You nailed it. Great. You. Oh, my God. Detroit d we just got to do two amazing shows with you guys. Thank you so much. Thank you. It's ridiculous that we get to do this at all. We have the best time.

It's so fun. And it's because you guys support us so much like you.

We really, really love each and every one of you. The fuck I'm saying coming. Thanks for waiting in that long line, potentially in the rain. It was raining for five minutes. Thank you guys for coming again. Fucking Mitton Murderousness. You guys are awesome. You're amazing. Thank you for the fact you guys stay sexy and.