Hello and welcome, my favorite murder, the podcast. That's George, a hard start. That's Karen Kilgariff. How's it going, everybody?

How are you? How are your parents? How's your sister, your friends, your dog? Do you want to talk about your dog? Oh, well, just so happens, I have one now. And her name is Cookie as a tribute to Elvis. And I think we fucking won the dog lottery. She's this little teeny tiny wire terrier. She's nine weeks old. She was found in the streets and much scouts rescued her. And I am I just can't I'm so happy.

It's so it's turned out it's great having a puppy. It is. It's really it's really exciting. They're very cute. Yeah. I just kind of am watching because dog is right over your shoulder if she's not. And it's like she's it's like she's looking, she's listening to you tell the story and she's just like I'll be over here. Oh do you love that puppy. Oh it brings you joy.

She just turned up. She definitely is back.

Return to me right now and has has cookie doing cookie dough. Can't wait to meet with the cookie. Can't wait. She's definitely a chaser so don't run. But Mimi is like excited. Mimi, what am I talking about. Mimi is fine. She's an alpha dog. She's trying to follow her lead and it's been three days and they're already like kind of OK, so I'm looking forward to it.

I like I mean, they can always just go up high. That's the thing. The cats, they have the good this the great advantage. It's like they're learning that's escape. Oh, I can't wait till everyone's just in a fucking cuddle puddle.

But I'm going to wait.

I know that's when the barking starts. Yes.

Oh yeah.

It's and it's and this is my first puppy and it's my first, like dog that's mine. You know, like I had an ex that I lived with who had a dog and my brother had a dog. But this is like my first dog. Yeah. And it's the best. Yeah.

It feels like it feels like a I definitely think there would be no issue with me getting a like certified. What's it called when they take care of your anxiety and you can bring them on planes. Emotional support.

Like I feel like it's obviously going to emotionally support me and in life, like, you know, if I'm lucky.

Kookie Yeah. Make the plan, make the point. But I just feel like it brings me down a level of anxiety immediately, you know. So like and she's telling me that I could bring her everywhere.

So it's like it's just going to be it's going to be helpful once we start leaving the house again.

Yeah, right. These are your future plans. Post your post quarantine plan. That's right. Of being the person that takes their dog everywhere. Yeah, but it's a blue vest on their dog. Oh. Oh.

You mean like I thought I was like a hoodie or like a slight bomber jacket. You mean like an emotional support.

No, that's it just makes me think of this lady that we were in the the what do you call it, great cheesecake. The way I want to call it the American Cheesecake Factory, the great cheesecake mistake, I think it's called it's called Cheesecake Factory. Oh, there's no there's nothing before it. There's no great about it.

There's nothing great pastry isn't bad. I will say those. Yeah.

Come to think of it, I mean but honestly those avocado girls are legit. Have you had them. Oh you don't know what they're doing. I know what they're doing there. There's, there's no there's the reason it's fucking packed and you have to have one of those weird buzzer's stand around.

We were there waiting for a table one time and a lady walked, a lady walked in with this poodle with the blue vest on and immediately started yelling at everybody that it was her emotional support dog. And I literally I looked at her like, lady, do not bring that over here. Like Los Angeles is chock full of these people where it's like entitlement. I just explain to you how incredibly my emotions were. It's like we're look, we're all at the Cheesecake Factory, that we all have emotions.

It's no one's doing a need.

You don't need a pet. You're here. I really won't be one of those people.

If I'm going to bring my dog to a dining situation, I'm going to make sure that there's outdoor dining and dogs are allowed. And it's also not a global pandemic because I'm just going to stay home in that case.

Yeah, no, you're talking about twenty twenty three. Yeah. And I hear you.

I'm hearing I would never bring my dog to a Cheesecake Factory.

This is my emotional support. Avocado, egg roll and it is gone.

It's a little blue vest.

You know, it's gone. It's going to be great in twenty twenty three. Is that most people who need emotional support dogs for indoor restaurants, we can just you can order it and have it delivered to your emotional support in your.

Is your emotional support home, and it ain't no thing. It ain't no thing. People will be. No, here's the thing. Crabby people like me won't give a shit. But you could have a fucking emotional support donkey with hay in its mouth. And I'd be like, oh, my God, I'm so cute.

I'm sorry about your feelings because it'll be so exciting to be in public and be in a restaurant that it'll be like anything.

Now is the hay and the emotional support, donkey's mouth, emotional support.

Hey, because I would get that donkey as fucked up that because it's got to fucking human places like those fountains are dancing. What's happening? Just like there's snow in Glendale at Christmas. And why are even at a mall in Christmas? It's like the worst idea. It's too bad.

So it's just a dog, Mike, and they get fucking reindeer horns put on my head and you're going to pass me off as a reindeer and you're going to like children on me.

Please.

Are you going to make me go to J. Crew and try on those really narrow pants like I don't none of it, please. I just want to stay home and eat my emotional support. Hey, did you see that?

It actually healed so hard it looked like it was snowing in the Malibu Canyon, no less like two days ago or three days ago.

Can they handle Matt Hale in Malibu?

I don't think so. They've been through so much. They've had such a hard time, but it was really mind blowing video. You should try it. Well, I'm just saying that's so that when you and I talk about how cold we are during this episode and the people in fucking Nome, Alaska, are like Jet. We're like, no, but they're sail.

You don't understand the people one state over and wearer's one state over Oregon are like, shut the fuck up, L.A. This is but it's everybody.

I mean, everyone's older than us always every. But also everyone wants us to shut up because of our emotional support. HAYLE It never ends with us. It's our emotional support podcast.

Deal with it. But it's really fucking cold. It's not that for us for context. I think you're on to higher up and in the valley. And so you get a little you get more cold.

But listen, I'm always freezing my tits off.

So it's just I'm saying for Los Angeles, which has been a blazing event for the last 11 months. Yeah, it's rough. Yeah. Fifty three.

I mean, I don't know. What are you. I don't know. What are you doing to hibernate while you. So what are you doing this winter season.

I ask you a question and I know the answer is going to be no and I'm going to be angry because if it were asked to me in your situation, I would be saying, yes, I'll always have you gotten in your hot tub one fucking time, like, what's this? I know, right?

No, but it's only because I don't really know how to talk. That makes sense. I wouldn't I wouldn't just even try to guess at all.

It's like there's a series of buttons and buttons and my pool tech was shown me how to do it. That's what they're called. Great. Good for them. All right. And you know, a ton of shit, way more than me. And he showed me probably four times. And I can't every time I go over there, it's a brand new scenario and I make a suggestion and write it down. No, take a picture.

Video it, video it. That's a great idea. I think that yeah, I videoed some shit that I'm like, there's no way I would have remembered how to do this. And it's like and I worked. And then you learn. Yeah, actually when I. Well, yeah. Yes.

And you can't talk about well it just sounded like a non non sequitur is anything that when I was taking drumming lessons. Oh what non sequitur. What's it called. Oh a non sequitur. Thank you. I thought you meant a non sequitur. I was like what in the hell can happen to half of that thing?

Non sequitur. Well, when I was learning drumming a million years ago, I just take, you know, an hour long drumming class and they teach me this whole thing, I think, great. I'm going to video you now. And that's the only way I like I wouldn't remember anything from the class. I would just like practice by watching the video. Right. So whatever. That's why I would tell my story.

It's not that I know of him doing it. That's what I was.

I was that's why it was a non sequitur.

It's just was worried that for you, nothing for you and nothing happened.

I'm just saying. Were you into that drumming teacher? Is that what we're actually talking? No. Right. Bless his heart. He was a sweetheart. There was no sexual chemistry. Bless his heart. His heart. Do you want me to go into a correction?

Schorno, please. I have one, too. OK, yeah.

Because we haven't we haven't recorded in a while. So this is an old one. But from the last episode where we did record, I was talking about how much I loved the show, all things great and small, which I continue to love and I continue to recommend, however. Oh problem is. Problem is, I was so proud because the the season started in Episode one in the train station in Glasgow, Scotland, got it right, my sister city, because I lived there for three and a half months or something like that.

So I get real like Scotland proud when I see Scottish stuff. I'm part of that. That's my neighborhood.

I don't even know him.

And we've been there since. It's like not a foreign place. Well, it's foreign, but it's not a foreign place to us. Right. And yeah. So I feel real like, you know, a special citizen anyhow. So I explain this show and said that that the James Herriot gets on the train and takes it north into the Scottish Highlands basically, and didn't think twice about that.

And and essentially the reason and this is what they call confirmation bias, I told it that way is because when I took the train in Scotland, I went north. So that's just like that was my experience.

So that must be what, this TV show? Yeah. I got a tweet from someone named Helen Lip Trott who literally just had this sentence. She just wrote the sentence or they just wrote the sentence. All things great and small is set in Yorkshire by.

Oh, yeah, that's right. He takes the train south to England, to Yorkshire to work on it. And that's where the entire incredibly famous book and television series is set in Yorkshire, England. So, Helen, my apologies. That was one of the I don't know why, but it felt like one of the harshest corrections of all time because there was no interest, no passion. It was almost like, now I have to come and Percival's to.

Yeah, it's like no, like it's all I know that people get stuck in all the time and you're fucking California.

But I wonder what if we were like if someone from England were like, it takes place in New York, we're like, no fucking doesn't it takes place in Cape Cod. How do you not know that you like a thing like that.

Like what it would what the equivalent with us what we'd get that wrong too. And that's the one thing we can really take it to heart no matter what.

It was Canada, it's the US and we don't buy oh it's get it out whatever. Then get from one province. All right. Well Micromax. So, Helen, Helen, my apologies. My correction I think was actually really close, like a learning experience for me. So remember how I was like making fun of microwave's for being that you could preprogram from some like you were like making your meatloaf on your way home from work and you sure you turn on the microwave?

Well, it turns out that. So someone on Twitter or Instagram, I don't remember no Instagram called bad ass mother and that's bad with tubes was like, hey, the reason that those are able to the reason that those exist are for people who are visually impaired.

And I was like, oh, oh, what a great idea. I take it all back and I'm happy to hear that. That's all. Yeah. Correction, it's not just some dumb fucking thing that the that big microwave used to jack up the prices of microwaves and, like, make rich people feel OK about having a microwave, you know what I mean?

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Good to know. Should we talk briefly, spoiler free about the Night Stalker. So fucking television show.

It's been so long since I watched it. I feel like I have so many notes at how how good it was and like powerful. Right. This is not it was I mean, yeah it was so well done.

It was people. Here's the thing. True crime as a popular trend isn't going away anytime soon. And people are just getting better and better at night and knowing what we actually want from it.

That's a great point. It's really impressive in this series. I don't know about you. I binged it all the night. It came out. No, we didn't do that, but we did. And and then Vince watched it, too, which was like which is always a good sign. He was like, I might not be able to get through this. Let's try it. And then the next day was like trying to finish it. So that's always good.

Yeah. He's willing to risk the four of it. I mean, the time and place ness of it is one of my favorite things about the good trick, where it's like here's what it was like back then and here's and it's part of the reason everyone was terrified. And it's it was the first time that they were like, you know, just coming off of the Hillside Strangler. But this time people were like, you know, whatever the fuck is so good.

It was amazing. Yeah. Yeah, it was. And the great Frank Salerno, the detective who basically worked on every famous murder case in Los Angeles in the 70s and 80s is a huge part of it. It's really cool to hear him talking and telling. And it was his case.

They him and Corail Carillo coming in and being like, hey. I'm a young guy, but fuck you, here's what it is, Underdog's City, smart as a fucking whip and like it wouldn't I don't know if it would have been solved, at least not when it was without him at all. Right? Of course not.

No, no, no, no. And it's just yeah. If you if you are looking and you haven't watched it yet, which I, I don't know, I bet it got really good reviews. People probably watched it, but definitely watch it. It's, it's a real ben-dror. It's unbelievable.

It's so fun to when you watch it a thing from your town or your, you know, Southern California being like I fucking grew up with that report.

Tony Valdés. Oh my God. That was my fucking meeti. Yeah.

And then Zoey Tur, I was just amazed by she's the one who started the helicopter and news reporting.

Yeah. Fascinating.

Like just such a cool, such a cool story. It's you learn a ton damn it. Like there's a lot it's not just the crime, it's the culture around the crime. And it's and then there's a bunch of survivors, victims families like it's told. It's very full story. It's not just it's the way they're doing it these days.

It's just beautifully done. Cool.

What else are you watching?

Well, I this is an old recommendation. And I think people told us this like the first time we went to the UK and this got recommended. I've known about it for a while, but I never found it. It's called Crime Story and it's on Amazon and it's from the, I think late eighties or early nineties. It's British and they're basically, I think their hour long I can't remember half hour hour, but they're basically a dramatized reenactment of a crime like beginning to end.

And it's like you're watching almost almost like a soap opera kind of feel. But it's you know, but it's very brief.

Like no narration. No, not at all. It's just like an episode of something that you would see, except for there's no. Yeah. Detective that comes in. It's like it's me, Inspector Morse. So ever it's just all the people of the time. It's all real. And there's I think there's six or maybe eight. And I watched all of those because it was just like, oh my God, this really happened. This really happened in each one.

And they're really amazing.

And, you know, we're usually in like we don't like dramatic reenactments of crimes, you know, like I feel like we're all a little sick of that and it's all overdone and overdramatic. But if this one does it, well, then that's like a huge deal. Well, because it's not a reenactment re-enactment is an accurate it's a it's a dramatized episodic of a true story. It so they actually, in their great British way, produced it really well.

And there's nothing reenactment about it. OK, it's great. It's like it's very compelling. Good storytelling. OK, let's see, what am I, I just look down on my notes and saw that I wrote down the Korean translation or book, came out in translation translated in Korean and the books in Korea.

Did you get the copy alone is crazy. Yeah. You and it's a really fascinating cover.

You should post that so people can see their post on Instagram and the translation for Stay Sexy and Don't Get Murdered. And then the tagline is be a selfish bitch, realistic fucking advice from your cool sisters.

I just there's some Korean twenty six year old girl was like in the bookstore like what a selfish bitch, get over here like this.

I think this should be the name of whatever next book we write, but I don't know if that would sell. I don't know if I could see it already is the name of a book we hate.

So you're right. So you know what? Your wishes come true and work your wishes.

Grant, thank you. Oh, have you been watching Season four and the new season of Search Party? No, I'm behind on search party all my fucking season after season.

This show delivers for me like it is regularly the best fucking episode of anything I've seen and I am so obsessed with it.

The new season is incredible as always. Hold on one second.

Let me let me look this up really quick. OK, so of course, John John Early is like one of my favorite fucking actors, comedic actors, and him and Meredith Hagner are like the fucking best comedy duo ever.

But then in this season, call Escola, as I say, who is also one of my other humans aren't really my favorite comedic actors ever.

And he is a has played a prominent role in it.

And it's just. Twisted, it reminds me of misery, kind of it's just like so good, it just like delivers on every front for me.

I think I have to catch up because like, when it first came out, I felt like you saw it everywhere. And maybe just because like we were outside. So I feel like it's not by me. We're we're in season four. All right. They moved actually to a new network.

So I wonder if, like, that might be part of it, but. And it's on. Is it? Oh, it's on Biomax now. Oh, cool. So that's cool.

But I mean, please, just like binge and like I'm so Vince told me he hadn't seen season one and I got excited that I got to watch it again because I'm just absolutely fucking love it.

That's ah, do you like it, though? Are you doing it? I'm not that big of a fan of it, but I, I slog through it. But you got through. That's right. That I love Aliah. Shaqra. What. Yeah. Everybody on that show. Oh. I was going to tell you about last night. My friend Albertina shout out recommended this show that's on Hulu and I what I recommend right now is that you do not try to read anything about it and you do not try to look into it in any way.

It's called in and of itself.

I heard the same fucking thing. Don't worry about it, OK? Don't read about it.

Just watch it. It's on who in and in and of itself. It's basically a it was a play and it was it was taped and so whatever. So it's a little bit like going to a live performance, which is amazing. And this is all I'll say about it. It starts by saying, please turn off your phone. And I was laying on the couch, of course, staring at my phone while I was waiting for this thing to start.

And I literally was like, not great.

I will be waiting for someone to say that to me for nine fucking months. But also, I don't want to overhype it because I feel like the neutrality of not being sure and like, yeah, having people say anything and one way or the other about it is the best, best. And then you could just go have your own. Yeah, I definitely hyped up search party, but I feel like it lives up to it where it's like the fucking greatest and that's like you can rely on it and it's amazing.

But you don't if you go watch it like people have already seen it, I love it.

So it's like an immersive experience, kind of. I don't know why that I just really like that phrase.

Yes. Well, yes. I think ultimately when it happened, it was, oh, my friend made a movie. And, you know, when your friends make a thing and you're like that kind of made a thing and then you watch it and you're like, holy shit, that guy was more I should talk to him or parties because they're really talented, which isn't it's actually a friend that I really like and I talk to at parties a lot because you can you're at a party and you're awkward.

You're like, oh, thank God Kirk Mail's here. I can fucking have a conversation and like, hide with someone. So my friend Kurt Neil made a movie which is like you made an introduction. You you make movies. I didn't know. And it's called Derek's Dead.

It's on Amazon and it's so charming and sweet. And Kurt stars in it and like wrote it. He probably directed it. And I was like, oh, fuck, you're so talented. I don't.

And Kyle Amazonas in it. And she is the guest on Do you need to write this book? I hope she comes to the door and delivers ashes. She's so funny. She's so deadpan and yeah, she's great. Dad, I highly recommend it. It's like it's a charming and fun to watch, you know. Where is that playing Amson and like YouTube. Yeah, it's like it's great. So the Job Corps can't wait to see what a fucking party again someday.

OK, so can I tell you about this book that I listen to on Man On? It was audio book and my friend Alison Fields recommended to me and. It is called attatched, and it's the authors are Amir Levine and Rachel Heller, and it is one of those fucking self-help books where you're listening to it and you're like, holy shit, this is the thing I needed to hear.

And it's basically about everybody, people's different attachment style. Oh, so either you're an anxious attack or you're an avoidant, tired, anxious, attachment avoidant attachment or secure attachment.

Who the fuck are you? Secure. I mean, show-off. That's like.

Yeah, those are like. Yeah but. If you are in any way kind of like having a hard time with either relationships dating where you think you're writing this, what you're trying to do, it is un fucking believable and attack me and no, no, no tethers go to attach.

That's a void. That's what I'm obviously the most. What are you secure?

I'm a I mostly anxious. OK, ok, we attach. Thank you for even suggesting that.

A wonderful compliment. I mean it's, it's, it's about a bunch of different things. And I think it's I was talking to my therapist about it this morning.

She's like, oh, but it's not everybody is not all.

One thing can be one thing some days in three categories of people of course. However, it's not about like I know I'm an introvert.

Well, I'm an extrovert or whatever. It's like we're all we all contain multitudes. But the theories behind it, because essentially and I'll briefly tell you this, but they basically say if you're an anxious attachment person, then the best kind of person you can be with obviously is security. Definitely, because, hey, they don't they don't mean Vince sure is nice to me. They don't get defensive. You go through your thing, they hang out and wait for you, whatever.

But oftentimes anxious attachment are only attracted to avoidance.

So are the people who sit there doing everything to get away from you and you keep going.

And after a while, that's what love feels like to you because it's and it's a reward when they finally give you a little you're like rewarded for your hard work, which I think so many women are in this cycle right now where they think this is what love feels like. This is what excitement this is whatever. And when you're when you first kind of start hanging out with a secure person. Yeah, it's there's no chemistry because they're just like, yeah, I'm super into, you know, and it's almost like you think you're bored, but it's not boredom.

It's it's reliability. You're learning how to be love. And can I add, because Vince is totally secure, I have anxious attachment.

It really always helped that he was like that when when someone doesn't flip, when you don't when someone doesn't fight with you or flip out with you or get upset that you are jealous or these you think that they aren't passionate and don't love you as much, the only way you understand love is by fight, by having these things.

And it's always that and which is totally me and the guys I date when I was young. And then you realize, right, that like. Yep, it just means they have their shit together and they love you enough that they know that that's not who you are. You're just kind of having a constant panic attack, that you're not worthy of the love, that you're like, why are they just being cool with me all the time? You know what I mean?

Did you write this book, which is basically it's like your you get triggered and then your own.

You don't think you're worthy of love and someone treats you like you are. You think that they're fucking with you. Or the lying or they're stupid or something's wrong with them or they're tricking you. Did I say tricking you? Right. OK, sorry.

And then you also get mad because essentially it's you're fucked up and you have to admit your fucked up. And then that's that thing where if you're with someone else that's fucked up, you can always be like, look how fucked up instead of the person that's just hanging out where you're like, I'm always wrong. It's it's so frustrating. So anyway, if you are in that spot attached, it's it's such a meeting.

You're married, you're in therapy. I mean, we have a great relationship. We're in therapy because of these reasons. And it is that I mean, but you're also in the the ideal scenario where because people who are in these different places can grow out into other places, you know, help because you wouldn't he wouldn't let me push him away in the beginning, you know what I mean?

Like, he wouldn't let me he got he stood up for himself and was like, I'm not going to hook up with another girl and you stop treating me like I'm going to. And you're and then I was like, I'm scared of that. Because if you're open about it and you're with someone, that's OK. But it's like. Right.

Scary getting to the place where, you know, you're safe to actually tell those stories and be honest about your feelings is really hard. That's my that's my recommendation. It's that it's that good, though. Like, you're excited because it's that good. And just listen to it. I mean, you know what you're going to hear. But the show, it it just feels so nice to hear it.

Yeah, that sounds great. Oh, should we just give a quick shout out to Kyle Russell, who did the lip sync stuff? So that is still the whole thing is hilarious.

I don't know why lipsticks are so fucking funny, but they are. Yeah, but the very end when I say, is that a fire, you go like really high. Yeah.

The way he does it is so it's. Thank you Kyle. That was such a delightful little thing.

So, you know, he, he, he, he nails our facial expressions in a way that's like that makes it so real. Like like I didn't think about the fact that when I said what it was off Mike until he, like, turned his it's just like some of these fucking tic talkers, man, are brilliant. They know. They're sure. They know. They're the only thing I'm worried about is he had glasses on for you. And I wonder if he thinks I'm your voice in your.

Excuse me. Twenty fucking twenty over here.

The only person this girl doesn't need glasses.

Can I just tell you, I don't even pretend the only person in my family for generations of Jews that have not needed glasses and I really get why you don't know.

I probably eat paint chips as a kid and just give me a fucking supersonic sight or some shit. Licked my cat one too many times. I got like some supersonic you you took that lead poisoning and you fucking made it work for you. I turns that it's not all bad. The government get out of my chips because I want to know what this was. An ad for paint chips supercell. That's our new murder. They're coming back is their tagline.

They're coming back. Let it go. Take him away. You let him gasoline baby. Asbestos. You never come no more lethal than ever.

Oh it's like forbidden Mirch that's been in Marcheline like, fuck you, fuck you, the FDA. Okay. And then they never got out of prison, Karen.

And we killed all those children with the peaches. It's toxic mold. Have you legit?

Have you read the good news about toxic mold, black mold. Get it in your citizen. All right. Now, little news.

She was in our shit. I heard about that stuff. Yeah. Where are you going to do a speaking of if something else is chitchat.

OK, we have a podcast network because we are business women, it turns out. Sure. Someone told us and we said, OK, and then we made Empire so well, of all the many shows, we have a look, there's a couple great ones.

First of all, I said no guest has the great comedian, actress, writer and America's sweetheart Naomi get on it. And she is so fucking hilarious. She was she I retweeted a video that she put out on Inauguration Day. Would you like Donald Trump by bitch? My pants by bitch. And she does like a thirty five second song by bitching everyone from the last administration, which is pretty exciting. So. I said, no gas is going to be a banger this week.

Hey, you know well, you know what other podcast? Our network, just just a little podcast called The Perkasa Motherfuckers.

Stephen Morris and Sarah have Jestina Ireland on the show this week. And she's the author of the new Star Wars book Test of Courage, which I think is such a like my obsessive cool thing.

Right. People love letter was so much fun. What kind of cat does she have?

She has two cats named Jeff, Jeff and Jack, and then a dog named Sterling.

And they all get along together and it's, oh, I need tips and tricks so that. Oh, yeah, yeah. Thanks for the tips and tricks Jack and Sterling cuddle up to. It's really sweet. OK, I'm there.

That's where you want to be. We also have had two premieres this week, which is very exciting. The hilarious comedy podcast Lady to Lady. I'll just do my own. I'm the guest on Lady Lady for their premiere episode on the Exactly Right Network. They've been doing it for, I think, seven years, a long time. They've been killing it out there. And we brought them we brought them home to exactly right. We're so excited. And we talk about one of my favorite things that I've ever talked to anybody about, which is the attempted cancellation of Grandpa Joe from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory we're dealing with.

Yeah, it's it's a very funny conversation. And those guys are the bad guy. So funny. OK, yeah. The other what's it called premiere we have is the podcast tenfold more Wicked Witch season one was incredible. And now season two is out and host Kate Winkler Dawson is dropping a new episode every Monday. And season two is called The Body Snatcher. And it's about Burke and Hare, who we've covered before is such a fascinating story. They're the most famous grave robbers of all time, and they never actually grabbed a rave set.

They actually did it in morning.

So you used to do. I used to raves. And so it's a really fascinating story. These are really shitty people and it's old timey and it's just a great lesson. So check that out tenfold more wicked. And then if you go to like. Exactly right. The network page on iTunes, all of our podcasts are on there. There's so many fucking good ones. Anything you're interested in, like whether it's true crime or comedy or movies or, you know, law and order, as to you, you're going to find something that you love there and cool people.

Yeah, exactly right. Ladies and gentlemen.

Oh, and also and also we just came out with our own line of temporary tattoo. What we're talking about the good news. You want to hear the good news. Temporary tattoos are in. Everybody like Karen and I are going to have to cover up our lower back tattoos with our own podcast, Temporary Tattoo, probably. How do you make a tramp stamp more shameful? Oh, you put your own pod cast, temporary tattoo on top of you as a grown up, purposely put yet another thing on top of the shame that you've been covering and hiding from boyfriends and not just anything but but advertising for your own pocket.

It's like wearing the band's shirt to the show.

But you're in the band and you're wearing your own, which apparently in the 70s bands used to do all the time. Like you see a band, a band picture from like 1970. Everyone's just like, hey, fuckin Led Zeppelin was like wearing their own shirt make sense out of like selling merch level.

And I do think that if I saw a comic wearing their own shirt while they're doing stand up, I would think it's pretty funny. That is funny. Like Chris Fairbanks in his own merch would be pretty fucking hilarious.

I mean, the levels of irony here unmistakeably is irony here. Is you being this or but if you're being that, then maybe on top of it, it's ironic or you know what I mean.

Mm hmm. Mm. What did I take Adderall today.

Now, just to. All right. Is it time to actually do the show? Forty two minutes. Excuse me. Yes, Steve. Showtime. Showtime. His first season.

It's dealer's choice because last week was a throwback where there wasn't any specific story. So then.

And then. And then. No, no, let's do let's pick like Steven, pick a number and just do it like OK. Between one and ten. Sure. Five. No, I just did that wrong.

I don't. I'm sorry. You're. No, no. Steven, why would you pick. I'm sorry.

You're saying I pick a number and then you guess Steven did you just get superexcited to pick a number were just like seven. Yes I OK, let's now do it between ten and twenty seven. I have a number and it can't be seven, yeah, or have a seven in it, and let's say one number at the same time. One, two, three, 12, eight, Georgia.

I get to talk that Karen goes first. OK, OK, I'll go first. OK, so my story's a little bit. Out of left field, but I've been reading a lot about psychiatry lately, it's kind of been something I've been obsessed with. And so I thought, let's just do the history of lobotomies and see how that go. OK. He did. KILCHER There were a lot of people killed.

So it's a horrible, horrible history and stories, right? Absolutely fits. And it's complex. So I got a bunch of information from this really great PBS documentary called The Lobotomist, a Wall Street Journal video called The Lobotomy Files an All Things Considered story called My Lobotomy, hosted by Howard Dully, which I highly recommend the Journal of Neurosurgery article by James P. Caruso and Jason P. Sheenan and a K.A. J.I. article by Carol Roach, HowStuffWorks article by Shannon Freeman, a BBC article by Hugh Levinson.

An article of the history collection, NCB ICOM article by Thomas, a band Wikipedia.

And then there's a podcast called Behind the Bastards, which is great. It's hosted by Robert Evans. And this episode there's a two part botany episode, a lot of history. And it's it's the the guest is Daniel Van Kirk, who's so funny, Jeno Robert Evans. Karren, he's a comedian.

No, but I've heard about Behind the Bastards. A lot of people like that. Bob gets sick and have been talking about it. It's fun and funny. All right. So before there were lobotomies, there was a Swiss psychiatrist in nineteen eighty eight named Gotlieb Burckhardt. He had never performed surgery before, but he believed that mental illness is caused by the actual structure of the brain. And all you have to do is to get in there and take out the bad parts to get things in the right order as if it was like a car engine.

And you're just like ripping out the wires that aren't necessary, even though you don't really understand what the wires are for. So he takes six of his patients with varying degrees of like mania, dementia and paranoia. And he cuts out chunks of their cerebral cortex, which is the thin layer that covers the brain. And not surprisingly, one patient goes into convulsions and dies. One seems better, but then takes his own life. Two of them are exactly the same, which is actually crazy considering an amateur surgeon had cut their fucking brain and two simply got, quote, quieter.

His systematic attempt at human psychosurgery performed in the 18, 80s or 90s are experimental surgical forays, and they're largely condemned by psychiatrists at the time. And they all like basically mock him to the point that he gives up, thankfully, on the whole thing. And in the subsequent decades, psychosurgery is attempted only once in a blue moon. But fast forward to the mid nineteen thirties and Portugese neurologist EGAS Moaners, who has similar beliefs as Burckhardt.

But as opposed to removing pieces of the brain, he leans more towards cutting the frontal lobe neural connections. So the frontal lobe is basically our control panel for emotions, for problem solving, memory, language, judgment and all the sexual desires and stuff.

It's the hardware that controls our personality. So Monas thinks that this is where all the problems are. And in fact, and at the time, there are some Yale physiologists who take out the frontal lobes of chimpanzees and find that they actually chill out and they they are like more easily led and they do what you tell them to do.

So Monas is into this. He comes up with the idea that maybe if you take out some of the white fibers from the frontal lobe on an actual human, it could have a similar effect. So he enlists a colleague named Almeida Limo to test out his new what he calls a blue Kotomi, like on twenty people who suffer from schizophrenia, anxiety, insomnia, hallucinations and depression with the first surgery being done on a 63 year old woman taking small scoring's of the patient's frontal lobes.

So this is like a hardcore surgery where they go and drill into your head. And this woman definitely seems to know what they call more well-adjusted. And all in all, 14 out of the 20 are reported as being initially cured or improved according to their standards.

So that doesn't it's not, you know, kid tested, mother approved. It's just like basic fucking hey, they're better. So moaners couldn't do these himself since he had had gout, which left his hands unusable. So he just told them what to do. And later they start cutting holes in the skull. OK, here it gets gross trigger warning and inserting a wire loop into the brain and rotating it around just to break up the white matter. Connect.

Some people are fine with this because it becomes actually pretty popular at the time, enough to win him the Nobel Prize in nineteen forty nine, but he catches heat for it, for the procedure, because other people in the medical community are like, dude, you're not looking at the long term effects of this. Or he's also not following up with any patients and he's barely even keeping track of any of his patients information. So you probably shouldn't be doing this up until this point.

The procedure is still referred to as a prefrontal economy.

So enter Walter Jackson Freeman, the second who would become known as the father of what he coined the lobotomy. Walter Freeman was born November 14th, 1895, and raised in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. His grandfather, William Williams.

I'm going to guess it's just William Keene was a well-known surgeon during the Civil War. So he's like respected and shit. And his father was also a very successful doctor, although it's said that his dad hated being a doctor, hated his patients and urged his son not to enter them, enter the medical field because it sucked. So despite this, the young and supersmart Walter Jackson Freeman, the second doctor Freeman, attended Yale University beginning in 1912 and graduated in 1916, and he was just 21 years old.

So he's very bright. He then moved to study neurology at the University of Pennsylvania Medical School, and while there he studied the work of this dude named William Spillar, and he was doing groundbreaking work in the new field of the neurological sciences and is credited by many in the world of psychology as being the founder of neurology.

He earned his Ph.D. in neuropathology. And in 1924, Dr. Freeman relocates to Washington, D.C. and starts practicing as the first neurologist in the city.

So this is like a brand new science. He gets a job at St. Elizabeth's, which is then one of the nation's largest hospitals for the mentally ill, and that twenty eight years old. He's the hospital's youngest laboratory director in history.

Like what were we doing at twenty eight years old?

It was not this to his horror, though. And like, you know, to his credit, he sees what's going on at St. Elizabeth and he's just horrified by it. He finds an institution that was essentially a dumping ground for the mentally ill. Patients here were suffering from a wide range of mental ailments. I mean, we're talking just depression and dementia and psychosis, all levels of mental illness. And a lot of them are just families not knowing what else to do with their family member and dumping them here or there or not fitting into society and dumping them here.

They're not following rules, but also the severely mentally ill who, you know, needed treatment.

But unfortunately, there really wasn't a ton of treatments at the time. And so everyone's just lumped together and they're housed, not treated. There was no serious, reliable treatment at the time, just experimental medications and procedures that had very little success rates. You know, and we're talking electric shock therapy. We're talking freezing cold baths. And then they would just be restrained or, you know, left naked to do so.

They wouldn't hurt themselves, quote unquote, and left in rooms. It was just medieval. I mean, your mom probably witnessed some of this in the beginning of her career, right?

Yeah. And that's why she got into it, is because she had a relative who was schizophrenic and had there is kind of no help for her. And that was. Yeah, it's it's a really, really dark. Yeah. It's so hard. Definitely.

So these hospitals, which were all over the country, were basically warehouses used to keep these people out of society's way. So in a way, Dr. Freeman initially, you know, was had his heart in the right place. He saw a problem. And he instead of just wanting to study it for decades and decades, he wanted to solve it. You know, he had this, like, cockiness in that way.

And so seeing this thousands and thousands of people who are suffering, he wanted them to no longer live such hopeless lives and in horrible conditions. But it seems like because he was he was a super cocky person based on all accounts and perhaps a bit of a sociopath, depending on who you talk to. He didn't really think things through. Like the means to the end was not was more important than the end, you know what I mean?

And he was very lenient on the meaning of success as far as treatments went. So Dr. Freeman was also a strange dude, colorful character.

To me. He looks like a nebbishy. Anton Levay from the Church of Satan. Oh, this is the Church of Satan. Quite a combination.

It is like pointy goatee, dark hair. You know, he had he had a look when he's known for being a bit of a showoff as well.

In the book The Lobotomist, the author, Jack El-Hai, tells a story about a dude who comes to Dr. Freeman for help when he gets somehow gets a metal ring stuck around his neck. Sounds like something sexual was going on. Got a dick or he was just bored.

You don't care enough. I mean, you know.

So Dr. Freeman files the ring off, gets the ring off. The patient for some fucking reason, wants the ring back. You know, it's a keepsake. And sure, Dr. Freeman's like, nope, you can't have it back. It's now a surgical specimen, fucking finders keepers or whatever. So Dr. Freeman keeps the ring. He has a jeweler put it back together. He has it engraved with his family's crest. And where is it? On a gold chain around his neck for, quote, many years.

What not. So this is now. So picture a nebbishy Anton Levay with a dick ring around his neck with his family. All of the things I just said. Yeah, I yeah.

Stepped up.

Yeah. And also, while working at Georgetown and George Washington University, all the students flocked to his lectures and classes and stuff because he had this performance based autopsies that were described as, quote, theatrical. He starts wearing a big hat.

He's got the goatee, he carries a cane. I'm sorry. Do you know what kind of that?

No, I could be a fucking clown's hat. I don't know. I mean I mean, I would assume at the time it's like a you know what I mean?

Like, I don't know. I'm sure we'll put up photos of him. It's not really cowboy.

I don't think cowboy hats. It's just any hat is inappropriate in an autopsy.

It's not one I could name that would be OK, except for that little blue surgeon's cap that just sits right on there.

Yeah, yeah. That's all I'm looking for. But I don't think that's what would draw the the teens or the students know being watching it.

And then he carries a cane just because he thinks it looks cool, like people who wear glasses that don't actually have any prescription on them.

And of course he continues to showcase his gold dick ring and he wears gold chains on the outside of his medical clothing as well.

So, Doctor. OK, yeah, here we go. Dr. Freeman had idolized the dude earlier, Dr. Madi's, who had become a mentor to him and who Freeman actually calls what it translates to his dear master. So he's, like, obsessed with this dude and like what he was doing for neuroscience. And he modifies Moniz's procedure and renames it the lobotomy.

At some point, Dr. Freeman loses his license to perform surgery after a patient dies on the operating table. So, like, you better fucking quit it. And he's like, I will I won't do it myself. I'm going to get a friend to do it for me instead. So to legally perform his new treatment, he has to enlist the help of fellow neurosurgeon James Watts as a research partner. So he's he's basically having this guy want to do the procedure while he oversees it and tells him what to do because he's not allowed to touch patients, which should be a red.

Like, if you can't touch patients, it should be a pretty big should be a period on your career. You know, it's pretty it's pretty incredible to a doctor's job.

So if you're not allowed to, you know, how about a review board or somebody steps in some. Let's put an addendum to your fucking firing papers. Also, you cannot be in the room. All right. So on September 14th, 1936 at George Washington University, Freeman directed Watts through the very first prefrontal lobotomy in the United States on a housewife named Alice Hood, Hamet, of Topeka, Kansas. She had struggled with depression. She tries to back out of the procedure.

She actually doesn't want to do it because she doesn't want her head shaved, which is one of the things that had to do because they were still getting into the skull. And that's one of her anxieties, is losing her hair. So she's like adamant that she doesn't want to happen. So Frieman promises her he'll only shave a small area.

They put her to sleep against her will and then shave a large portion of her head anyway.

So this guy was not like he wanted to help people, but it seemed like not for the right reasons, it had nothing to do with them, you know what I mean?

He wanted to help people, but it wasn't based on what they. Told him they needed or they didn't get to have a say. That's the part that like in the in all of this is that, you know, like cops, he starts out and it's in that it's at that state hospital that, you know, they the news reporters when it's like there's so much of that kind of like losing your own agency.

You have these issues and doctors like the arrow where it was kind of like the doctors said it right. Then you get no say. It's just very I yeah.

It's very troubling. It's very upsetting. And it's also what was I going to say? Yeah, it's there's no other cure. There's no cure for depression. There's no treatment, not cure, of course, but there's no treatment for depression then like this is it. And they probably were like, this is the only way they're going to get back to a normal life. And unfortunately, it was the decision of the people who were, quote unquote, sane to to allow these things to happen to their families, saying, you know, whatever.

But they have this agenda. That's the creepy part, is like they have this agenda of getting their research right, you know, like validated somehow or being a rising up in the ranks, whatever it was.

I mean, there's no checks and balances since you should be able to go. I don't want to do this anymore. And that should count. Yeah. And, you know, that's ridiculous. Yeah, I'm depressed, but I could still function in society or no, I don't want to get married and have babies, but that doesn't mean, you know, it's like depression also meant something different during those times than it does today. Or mania or psychosis, you know, was defined as just someone being defiant to, you know, the normal the norms of the day.

So so in under an hour, still using an older procedure, she is lobotomized. And after she wakes up, she claims to be, quote, happy and doesn't even care that her head was shaved anymore. So it's like that's a success. She's not worried about her head shaving anymore. Hair had been shaved anymore, which is like a loose definition on success. Right. But after about a week, she can't speak very well and disoriented and agitated all the time.

And the cocky Dr. Freeman still thinks he did an awesome job and declares her case a success and starts getting attention in publications like The Saturday Evening Post who reports that, quote, A world that once seemed the abode of misery, cruelty and hate is now radiant with sunshine and kindness. By November, only two months after performing their first lobotomy surgery, Freeman and Watts had already worked over 20 cases, including several follow up operations. And by 1942, the Duke had performed over two hundred lobotomy procedures and had published results claiming sixty three percent of patients had improved.

Twenty four were reported to be unchanged and fourteen percent were worse after surgery.

That's a lot of people. Then in nineteen forty six, after almost ten years of performing lobotomies, Freeman begins performing. What most people know today is the classical lobotomy, a.k.a. the transorbital lobotomy. So Freeman heard of a doctor in Italy name Amaro Fembot, who operated on the brain through his patient's eye socket. So instead of drilling into the head, they were able to access the brain without, you know, drilling into the skull. So instead of taking scoring's from the frontal lobes, which, like you had to drill, it was like a huge procedure and surgical things like in patient situation, Freeman's procedure severed the connection between the frontal lobes and the thalamus.

So Freeman formulates a new procedure called the transorbital lobotomy, a.k.a. the icepick lobotomy, which is all the photos you see nowadays from back then are basic with the fucking picks coming out of their eyes. Is that so? This procedure is done by first making the patient unconscious, Veoh Electric via electric shock, which in and of itself is traumatic, I would assume, and then inserting a metal pick, which he calls an orbit class.

Into the corner of each eye socket, hammering it through the thin bone there with a metal mallet, the word crunch comes up a lot, just fucking creepy, and then moving it back and forth, severing the connections to the prefrontal cortex and the frontal lobes of the brain, scraping the white matter until it's no longer functional. Then they do the same thing through the other eye. It sounds horrific, fucked a lot at 14 percent of people being, you know, not not taking it well is really bad.

But it's not to say that there aren't some procedures that aren't actually successful, like when Dr. Freeman performs the very first actual lobotomy in the transorbital icepick and Malate style in nineteen forty six on a housewife named Ellen Ionesco in 1946, he had, quote, perfected the procedure just weeks before from the PBS documentary The Lobotomist. Ellen's daughter said that her mom changed for the better price procedure, saying she never mentioned suicide again and saying her mom was violently suicidal up until that point and telling NPR after the transorbital lobotomy, there was nothing.

It stopped immediately. It was just piece. I don't know how to explain it to you. It was like turning a coin over that quick. And she said Dr. Freeman gave her mother back before this procedure style. Freeman hasn't been able to perform the procedure on his own as it was surgery. So he wasn't a surgeon and was and James Watts every time it was performed. But this newfangled icepick method turned it into an outpatient procedure since they weren't actually going into the skull.

And so he could, you know, allegedly get away with doing it with just the help of a nurse. So James Watts is like not fucking into this anyway. It doesn't seem ethical or safe to him. He does not approve of the icepick method. He calls it reckless and unsterile. They also fight over Freeman's idea that also he thinks all psychiatry should be able to perform this procedure on their patients, like during their exam, like Hech in their office whenever they want.

The two eventually part ways after Watts walks in on Dr. Freeman performing a transorbital procedure without his knowledge in his office. One day he had been doing them when he knew Dr. Watts wasn't going to be in because he knew he disapproved of it. But when Dr. Watts walks in on him doing it, Tramon is just like so oblivious to the wrongs that he's doing that he acts. What he asks Watts to take a photo. He's like, oh, hey, now that you're here, fucking take a quick photo.

James Watts is appalled by this recklessness. And so he's like, fuck this crazy shit and he gets the hell out of Freeman's life. But despite this and his horror, by the early 1950s, lobotomies have become all the rage.

Freeman loves performing them and just as much he loves the attention is bringing him because it's making him fucking famous.

At this point, he's still showing off. He turns his doctor's coat into. He cuts the sleeves off and turns it into a muscle t shirt, essentially just so tacky.

And he's now nailing in the ice picks on both sides of the face at the same time, almost like a fucking like a party trick. So it takes even quicker. He doesn't have to do one side than the other. And he partly wants to freak people out who are watching is one of the reasons he does it. So he lets an audience come and observe. It becomes like an assembly line to him. And during just a two week span in 1952, he performs two hundred and twenty eight lobotomies in West Virginia alone and is performing them on people for as little a reason as that.

They are getting bad headaches, so there's not a ton of oversight. The procedure takes less than ten minutes and so he really starts cranking them out. So despite the eventual bad rap and numerous cases of bad outcomes and even multiple deaths, surprisingly and a lot of instances, the procedure actually seems to be helpful. But sometimes they're just completely tragic and make people's already difficult lives even worse, like the case of JFK's sister, Rosemary Kennedy. So throughout her life, the eldest daughter of the Kennedy clan and little sister to JFK, Rosemary or Rosie, she had dealt with what was described as physical and mental development issues and reportedly have seizures as well as violent outbursts against others.

So in nineteen forty three, when she's twenty three, her super controlling and demanding and total piece of shit. Father Joseph Kennedy enlists Freeman and Watts, who are still at him at the time. And James Watts later describes it to author Ronald Kessler as quote, We went through the top of the head. I think Rosemary was awake. She had a mild tranquilizer. I made a surgical incision in the brain through the skull. It was near the front.

It was on both sides. We put an instrument inside. And as Dr. Watts cut, Dr. Freeman talk to Rosemary and asked her some things like, you know, recite the Lord's Prayer or to sing God Bless America or Count Backwards. And then says, quote, We made an estimate on how far to cut based on how she responded when Rose-Marie began to become incoherent, they stopped.

The procedure is a huge failure. And Rosemarie's diminished to the mind of a two year old who can't speak or walk and is incoherent. One of the county's nurses who watched the procedure is so disturbed by it that afterwards she quits working in medicine completely.

Oh yeah. The once happy and vivacious Rosemary Kennedy is immediately placed in psychiatric hospital. For several years, she separated from the family until nineteen sixty nine. Her mom doesn't visit her for 20 years. Her dad never does. And despite all this, Rose-Marie lives to be sixty eight years old. And it said that her nieces and nephews tried to give her a normal life when they were older or, you know, take care of her and not make her stay in an institution.

What makes this all even worse is that the actual case of Rosemary mental issues is most likely traced back to when she was left in the birth canal during delivery for two hours, deprived of oxygen because her mother, Rose Kennedy, was instructed by nurses to keep her legs closed and not push until the doctor was available.

Which is so I mean, just tells you what what medicine was like back then. It was barbaric. Her lobotomy wasn't made public until 1987.

Another famous case is that of Howard Dully, who I mentioned earlier with All Things Considered story, which you can find online. He's a pretty normal 12 year old boy. He he gets into some basic trouble. But his mother died of cancer. His his dad remarried. And his stepmother is just a purely horrible woman. She basically can't control this normal twelve year old boy who's probably grieving his mother.

He she said she takes him to Dr. Freeman and says he won't bathe, he won't go to bed. He turns lights on and ruins when it's daylight outside. Like those are her reasons for why he's unruly. And despite that, he has a newspaper row and earns money and is training is like he is a responsible twelve year old boy. He just probably is sad and hates his stepmom. However, she labels him a problem child and disruptive to the family home and insists he needs a lobotomy.

She forces him to meet with Dr. Freeman, who says, quote, He is defiant. He is defiant. At times. He has a vicious expression on his face some of the time and diagnosis him is schizophrenic. So a day after meeting him together, they convince his father to kind of allow the lobotomy to go forward.

And so in December 1960, he performs a lobotomy on the pre-teen.

And Howard, I know and this is this episode of called My Lobotomy, which you can look up on iTunes. It's him narrating his story of as an adult.

He's he's now a bus driver.

And he spent his teens after the lobotomy waking up, quote, like a zombie and really not even knowing what was going to happen to him or what happened to him. He commits some small crimes. He does some stints in jail. Sometimes he's homeless, but homeless. But as years pass, he gets his life together and he comes to an understanding that the bottom was not his fault then, that it's his life's path and he needs to deal with it.

He grows up to be a bus driver. He only tells his wife and a few close friends about the lobotomy he had.

And actually, you would never really know he had had it if you just met him, you know, so he he seemed a little dry, but not in a way that you'd be like, something's wrong with that guy.

It's just like seems like just his personality.

And so this beautiful story he does on All Things Considered, he goes and speaks to his dad and is like, why did you allow this to happen? The dad? And it's so it's so heart wrenching and beautiful. And the dad's like, I got tricked. I didn't know, like, really what was going to happen. He goes on to write an autobiography and tells his story to NPR. He tells them that his overbearing stepmother threatened that she would divorce his father if they didn't get the bonhomie done.

And she was actually bummed that it didn't make him into a vegetable.

And so as soon as it was over and he wasn't, like, essentially comatose, she kicked him out of the house.

So this woman is horrible. You kicked him out when he was like twelve years old. Yeah, I don't know how long after, but like post lobotomy, the lobotomy didn't work, you know, and he is the youngest person that Dr. Freeman ever performed the procedure on.

And it's like the fact that you would just be the fact that he then was OK with it despite those reasonings, you know, and not ask this woman what, you know, try to help this child just kind of shows how far he he strayed from.

Initially possibly wanting to help, you know, for sure, that's yeah, that's it's this is so sinister. It's unbelievable. But since it is in 1952, a surgeon and physiologist in the French army, Henri Labora, it recognizes the potential use of a new drug in psychiatry. And this is when Dr. Freeman's fucking reign finally starts to come to an end, when Thorazine is introduced to the public to treat a wide variety of mental disorders that normally would have left the sufferer an institution for life such as psychosis, schizophrenia mania, bipolar disorder, the treatment of mental patients is forever changed and these barbaric methods are phased out.

The first and it's the first antipsychotic. It's the first wonder pill that actually changed people's lives. And it's on the World Health Organization list of essential medicines. Its introduction has been labeled as one of the great advances in the history of psychiatry, and it's instrumental in the development of neuro.

Fama's neuro psychopharmacology and its commercial success stimulated the development of other psychotropic drugs.

So. My life wouldn't be as good as it is if this happened, happened, so because of this, Dr. Freeman's brain business starts to slow down. Society's exposure to the possible horrors of lobotomies has also grown as these stories become more and more prolific.

And it takes its toll on Dr. Freeman's business and public image. The book, The Lobotomist shows a Cocchi Dr. Freeman posing for a photo during an ice pick procedure, which he gets every single for every single patient, including this kid, Howard Dully, the 12 year old. He goes back and looks at his files and finds a photo of him with the fucking pecs in his eyes. So he gets a photo of every single one of them. And so in one of these procedures, when he gets the photo taken and is distracted by it, it ends up killing the patient immediately because of his negligence.

So he finally hangs it up in 1967, when his last patient, Helen Mortensen, dies of a brain hemorrhage three days after her transorbital lobotomy. So he spent the better part of the rest of his life documenting old patients and giving speeches, essentially trying to convince the world that he was doing the right thing. And by the time of his death of cancer in 1972, Walter Freeman had performed lobotomies on around twenty five hundred patients across 23 states. And overall, approximately 60 thousand lobotomies were performed between nineteen thirty six and nineteen fifty six because other people were doing them to.

In the US, Wall Street Journal did some research and found confidential government records and spoke to family members of veterans and found that lobotomies were given to hundreds of World War Two vets who had returned from the war with serious psychiatric conditions. So like with Vietnam, you kind of equate them coming home and having some serious psychological issues. But World War Two, they kind of like covered it up. And we're like, you're coming home to your family and everyone gets a house and everything's peachy keen and fine now.

So they covered up all these lobotomies. And in fact, between April nineteen forty seven and September nineteen fifty, VA doctors lobotomized about fourteen hundred and sixty four patients. Wow. Henry Marsh, a top English neurosurgeon, said of lobotomies in 2001, quote, If you saw the patient after the operation, they'd see him all right. They'd walk and talk and say, thank you, doctor. The fact that they were totally ruined as social human beings probably didn't count.

And then neurologist Dr. Elliot Valenstein said in his book called Great and Desperate Cures, there were some very unpleasant results, very tragic results and some excellent results and a lot in between. And then finally, his own son, Franklin Freeman, said, quote, You could never talk about a successful lobotomy. You might as well talk about a successful automobile accident. And that is a story of Dr. Walter Freeman and lobotomies.

Well, I know I just hate the like.

That was back in a time where it's the same thing with priests were doctors. It was just like I was. It's just like. Four in general, just like big white men who told everybody how it was going to be and no one, there was no way to advocate for yourself, there was no you just did what they say. And it was just kind of like their way or the highway. And if you had somebody that maybe, you know, maybe didn't have, like, their oath in mind when they treated every single person, that just there's just nowhere to go.

You can't get away from that. Absolutely horrible for you. And it went on for so long. It's just so awful. Absolutely.

Great job. Thank you.

And I highly recommend reading the book. It's called Blue Dreams The Science and Story of the Drugs That Changed Our Minds. It's by Lauren Slater. And it's all about psychiatry and psychopharmacology and how it changed the world. It's fascinating. Check it out. And thanks to my friend Mike Burns, he did a great job researching this.

I did great for such something. So awful. Totally. Yeah. It's fascinating, though. I mean, like, that's the thing. It's it's it really happened.

And I've seen those pictures with the ice picks. It's just I remember the first time, whatever I saw a documentary or whatever it was just being like, no, no, no, that doesn't go there.

Yes. I'm not doing.

I can't. I can't. I mean, I highly recommend such a bummer documentaries like PBS want because there are tons of photographs and the stories of I mean, it wasn't that long ago that it was just Barbe barbaric. And it's I think it hits home for a lot of people because it's stuff that we would have would have happened to us or someone we know, you know, at the time. It's like we all know someone who has issues that gets in the way of their lives that they're luckily able to treat.

And that wasn't the case back then. And that's really sad.

Yeah. Yeah. Different time. Yeah. All right. Well, hold on. This is thanks to people like your mom. The last page for giving a show.

I mean, she told me shit. You told me stories of the worst because she worked at a mental hospital in San Francisco where in the 60s, like late the mid to late 60s, where she said that's when kind of like the you know, the the beginning of the Cultural Revolution phase, that kind of stuff was starting to happen. And there were families that would just send their their rebellious teenagers to mental hospital. So she she was like, so there would be these teenagers that got caught smoking pot that would get shipped to a mental hospital and be in the dayroom with people who were completely psychotic.

Like she was like it was it was terrible and it was super unfair and really insane like that, you know, and probably just detrimental to their well-being.

Not I mean, you know, hopefully there were people, staff members who understood that that but that that's the best version of housing, the housing issue of, you know, just sending people away to never see them again.

Totally. OK, so this I first became aware of the murder that I'm doing this week because I had to watch two listeners talk about it in front of me on Twitter, which, you know, I have to say it didn't feel great. Oh, so first Karina sent me a tweet that said, I'm begging you, please cover the smutty nose axe murders on the aisles of Sholes in New Hampshire. I will send you every page of a book I have about it.

I know you'll never come to New Hampshire, so you owe me this. And then here, Emily here. I know it's she she came in high. Then here comes Emily going. I submitted this one like three times. It's so interesting and it's got it all. And then Carina comes back and goes, it's our best hometown one.

So I sent that exchange to Jay and said, Will you please look up some information about the smutty notes?

Ladies, this better be fucking great or you're just banned. Can you imagine if I. I blame them and I'm about to tell you the most boring boring as shit.

And then we're doing it because of these two guys. They had to know.

So so when we searched the Gmail, there was also Nicholas wrote in because it's his hometown. And so but we also got information from Murder by Gaslighted, our favorite, a great website for old murders, historical murders, such a good website and store. And and the person who runs that website is also an author. I've talked about them so many times, but so go there if you're looking for interesting new stories, old stories, but also New England dotcom, the line up dotcom and of course, the great Wikipedia dot gov.

Those are my sources. And also so this is the email from Nicholas. He said, So my hometown was a one hundred and forty five years ago, but it's still good. I grew up in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, along with the whole eleven miles of coastline that the state has. Right off the coast is our archipelago.

I don't know of an archipelago. Pelago Archipelago Archipelago. Thank you.

It's archipelago of nine islands called the Aisles of Sholes, one of which is called Smutty Nose Island. At the time there was this there was a fishing village that was home to over 600 people. But advances in technology caused many traditional fishermen to abandon the island in favour of the mainland. This led to a total of five people, a group of Norwegian immigrants, to remain living on the island. And then he goes in to tell the entire story. But, Nicholas, I'm just letting you kick this off and we'll get back to your email maybe a little bit later.

So essentially, it's the mark. It's the night of March 5th, 1873. And Karen Christiansen has just finished her shift at the Apple Door Hotel on Apple Dorje Island, which is the largest the largest island in this archipelago of nine nine islands. It's off the coast of both Maine and New Hampshire. So they're basically the state line runs through. So half of them are in in one state and half are in the other. So Karen heads to her sister, Marianne Convent's house, which is on Smutty Nose Island, which is just south of Apple Door.

And there she is welcomed by her sister and her sister in law annotator. Kristiansen OK, so somebody knows Island is only about a half mile long. It's less than half a mile wide. It got its name from a fisherman who saw the seaweed around the island and thought it looked like the smutty nose of a giant sea creature. It's subject to cold, harsh winters. And the only people who ever really go there are fishermen passing through on fishing trips.

In fact, no one lives there year round except for the Hunt Vet family. So friend's husband John Hunt and his brother Matthew, along with Marin and Karen's brother Ivan. The all those men are fishermen. Everybody's brother or husband in this story is a fisherman. They're all the way for the night in the mainland port city of Portsmouth, New Hampshire. They're there waiting for a shipment of bait. It's cold, a cold winter night. So to keep warm, all three women are sleeping in the first floor of this two story house marren and anatase are sharing the first floor bedroom.

And Karen has set up a makeshift bed for herself in the kitchen because I'm guessing that's where the wood burning stove is and that's where the snacks are. I want both of those things right now. Yeah, right. Like, just pull up to a to a nice kind of fire in the kitchen.

And I like maybe some crabcake Douridas variety pack Bashur. Oh no, no, no. Crab cakes. Put them in your bed. I mean old fashioned crab cakes. Modern. OK, so about. No, 1:00 in the morning, Karen wakes to the sound of the family dog Renia, who's barking. She looks up to see the silhouette of a man standing in the doorway. So she thinks it's her brother in law, John, coming home early.

So she gets up. But this startles the man. And in a panic, he grabs the closest heavy object he can find, which is a wooden chair, and he starts to beat her with him. Since she believes it's John, she cries out, John is killing me, which wakes Merren up somewhere and opens the bedroom door to find her sister. Battered and bloodied on the floor, the man freezes, which gives Marin the chance to grab Karen and drag her limp body into the bedroom and deadbolt it behind her dead, bolt the door behind her.

So the man starts pounding on the bedroom door. Meryn, knowing it's only a matter of time before he breaks it down, tells the two other women they need to escape out the bedroom window and run. So anatase goes first. But as she lands outside, she sees the man coming outside too, and she watches as he grabs the axe. The hot vent family keeps next to the house to break up ice. And as he comes toward her with the axe, the moonlight brightens his face so she can see who's coming toward her and she cries out.

Well, now let's stop here so I can give you a little more about this family. All right. That's a cliffhanger. That's a hilarious cliffhanger I just made you go through.

OK, so originally from Norway, John and Marin Hunt fed emigrate to America in 1866, hoping to find better opportunities for themselves. So they land in Boston, but they have a hard time adjusting to to city life. So in 1868, they move up to the remote, smutty nose island of Maine. So they rent this small red house on the island and they're the only one that lives there year round. And they rent the house from a local family.

The latents who also own and operate the Apple Door Hotel on Apple Door Island. And it's the only hotel in the entire isles of shoals. So John buys himself a schooner. He names at the Clarabelle and he starts a fishing business. So every day at dawn, he sails out to the fishing grounds. He cast his nets, takes in the day's catch to Portsmouth, and then he sells what he caught at the market. And once once his catch is sold, he uses part of his earnings to buy bait for the next day's outing.

And then he sails back home and he soon becomes very successful. He's really good at this. So while Marin is proud of her husband's hard work and of the home that they now have, she feels really isolated on that island all alone with her dog.

So she she generally keeps good spirits and she decorates the house. She cares for the home. She tends to plants that she keeps in the windowsill. But her only company is Renia, and she misses her family back in Norway. Luckily, John cares about his wife's feelings and listens when she tells him because he has a secure attachment style and he doesn't get defensive when she when she tells him her troubles.

This is a fairy tale. So I know this can happen to you if you just read the book. So he sends word back to Norway and uses his hard earned money to pay for his brother Matthew and for Meran sister Karen to come to America, too, and live with them on the island. So they arrive in May of 1871. So Marin's thrilled to have her sister with her. But Karen is actually heartbroken over at the end of a relationship back in Norway.

So Meran, determined to help her get over it and start her life anew, speaks with the latents and gets Karen a job working as a live in maid at the Apple Door Hotel.

How Karen got her groove back. It's such an older sister move to be like, Come keep me company on a deserted island. Are you born OK now you're a maid.

Like, get out of control and shut up.

Yeah, clean the attachment. Get over it. Attachment style, sister. So Matthew starts working for his brother John's fishing business. That's which is growing rapidly. So it turns out John needs even more help to keep things running smoothly. So so one day at the while at the market in Portsmouth, he meets another local fishermen named Lewis Wagner and offers him a job. So Lewis Wagner is a 28 year old German fisherman with a thick accent who came to America around eighteen sixty five.

He's been fishing around the New England area for a while now, but he isn't making very much money. He's barely getting by. And most of the other fishermen aren't really big fans of Lewis. He seems to be like he likes lurking in corners. He's always eavesdropping on conversations.

So he's definitely not the killer. That's what you're saying? No, no, no. Don't worry about this guy. This guy is, in fact, forget I'm even Tyneside. OK, OK. No one really also no one really knows much about him, but John finds him friendly enough and needs needs the help. He also can't really afford to pay another full time fisherman. So he offers Lewis room and board at his house on somebody's nose island.

And then when Lewis agrees to those those terms, John doesn't hesitate because there's a free creep for hire.

So get him into to get the cheapest possible person you can to do the job. Yeah, and don't worry. And then don't think about that again. Just a lurker and a lurker in the house actually let him move in to your house with your wife and sister in law.

So it would be because you don't know anything about a museum worker. It'll be fine. So Lewis spends the summer of spends that summer of it, every fucking thing it says it says 1972 J. J. I think I know. No, it was me. I think I went in and accidentally it's 1872. So Louis spends the summer of 1872 working on the Clarabelle with John and Matthew, although he often has to take days off because he has rheumatoid rheumatoid arthritis.

But so you get what you pay for John's. So Meran cooks for everyone herself. John, Matthew and Lewis, every day the four friends become very close. And Lewis is accepted into the family. So then in October of 1872, Marianne and Karen's brother, Ivan Christiansen, moved to smutty Nose Island with his wife, Anita. They're newlyweds. They have been married less than a year. And they wanted to come to America to be close to their siblings and be a part of John's growing fishing business.

So with more family coming to town, there's now five people living in the house on somebody's nose island and it's getting crowded. Louis sticks around for the next five weeks, but it soon becomes clear that Jon has more help than he needs and he's just kind of left out. So he takes the hint. He finds himself another job as a deckhand aboard the fishing schooner, the Addison Gilbert. So by November of that year, he's gone and there seem to be no hard feelings at the hunt.

But family feels like they help their friend Louie get back on his feet and now he's on his way. But soon after, Louie joins the crew, the Addison Gilbert is wrecked in a terrible accident and he's basically he doesn't have a job again. So he's forced to go back to working the Portsmouth wharfs and it's bitter cold. Winter, of course, makes it working even harder. By March of 1873, Lewis is completely broke. He's three weeks behind on his rent.

His shoes are worn down, his clothes are in tatters, and he's totally desperate. So. Now, it's March 5th of 1873, and John and Matthew and Ivan arrive at Portsmouth to pick up their bait for the next day, but but when they go to get it, the shipment is coming up from Boston on the train and it's delayed. So John finds another fisherman who he knows is going to be passing. Somebody knows Island on his way home and he asks him to stop and let Marron and annotator know that the men will have to spend the night in Portsmouth so that they can go pick up their bait the next morning.

The fisherman agrees to do that. And as the guys are getting ready to settle in for the night, they bump into Lewis. So they see that Lewis is down on his luck. And so John offers to pay him to help them bait the lines on the Clarabelle in the morning. Lewis agrees, but secretly. He's got other plans because he now knows that John, Matthew and I will not be home that evening. And he also knows firsthand how lucrative John's fishing business has become.

So around eight o'clock that night, Lewis steals a rowboat from Portsmouth's Pickering wharf and he throws the it's somewhere between six to 10 miles out to smutty Nose Island.

I bet also like now as a dog owner, the dog knows him so isn't going to freak out as much as I did with a stranger, you know.

Very true. Yeah. He just thinks, oh, this guy's coming back. He might even shake his tail. Welcome in the Bisto. We always have treats in his pocket. Well, we always smelled like fish, I'll tell you that.

So it's so that rowing the boat is a five hour journey across freezing waves and winds. When he arrives at Smutty knows, he docks his boat on the south side of the island and he trudges through the snow up to the fence home. He enters quietly, planning to go find that money that he knows John has somewhere in that house. He's thinking that the women are asleep upstairs. So now we're back in from where I left you at the top of it.

So Anatoly drops out the bedroom window. She sees the man from who is inside the house, coming around the corner holding the axe. And when the moonlight shines on his face, she cries out, Lewis, Lewis, Lewis. But before she can run or get away from him, he swings the axe high over his head and brings it right down on anatase skull, crushing it in one blow.

My good man is watching this from the bedroom window and she so she witnesses her sister in law's murder. She turns back into the bedroom trying to figure out a way for her and her sister Karen to escape. But Karen is beaten so badly she can't even stand up. So Marian is tending to her sister. Lewis comes back inside the house and he starts swinging the axe at that door. So he's breaking his way into the room. Marianne goes back to the window.

She's trying to pull Karen out the window with her. And it's it's no use. She's dead weight. And she by the time he breaks all the way into the room, she has to leave her sister behind. She grabs the dog and she she hops out the window. Right. As Louis swings the axe at her, he actually misses her just barely. And he hits the window sill instead right behind her.

So she's running off into the snow with the dog in her nightgown and on a secluded fucking island on a secluded, fucking windswept island. He she can hear Lewis strangling Karen.

Yeah. So she's searching for a good hiding spot on the island and she's being careful to hold the dog close so he doesn't bark or give her away in any way. And first she goes into the chicken coop and she's hiding in there and then she realizes it's way too obvious. It's the first place he's going to check. And so she runs down to the docks to try to escape in the rowboat that he got there.

Yeah, but the docks closest to their cottage are on the north side, and Louis intentionally docked on the south side so no one would see him. So there's no boat there. So without any options, she runs down the beach and hides behind a large rock on the west side of the island. It's right by the water. And she knows that the sound of crashing waves could mask any noise she might make or any barking that the dog might do in just her nightgown and bare feet.

Marion sits in the snow until the sun rises, holding the dog close to keep her warm. So lucky Marion was right.

Louis did search the building surrounding the house for her. He couldn't find her anywhere. He goes back to the Haunt vet's house, where there are two the two dead women's bodies, Hebrew, some himself, some T. He fixes himself a snack. He he ransacked the place looking for cash. He finds sixteen dollars, which is the amount, the equivalent of about three hundred and sixty dollars today. And then he goes back to Portsmouth before sunrise. So around 8:00 a.m. she's unsure whether or not Lewis is still on the island.

But Marianne runs across the breakwater to Malaga Island, which is northwest of somebody knows and she's now close to Appled or Island that she can actually shout to the shores. And some kids who are outside playing hear her yelling and they run inside and get their dad, boy, boys and girls.

Yes, the kids there and they're dead, YORGA in your bretz and he rose across this muddy nose, rescues Meran brings her back to Apple Door, Apple Door Island and Yorga and some other men from Apple Door go back over to somebody Nose Island to search for the sign of the killer. They don't find anyone there.

They come back to Apple door and continue their search, thinking maybe he hopped islands and came over to Apple door and then they leave a signal on the shores of smutty nose so that when John, Matthew and Ivan returned from fishing, they know to come straight back to Apple door. So a few hours later, the men see the sign. John continues on sailing the Clara to somebody Nose's Harbor, but when Matthew and Ivan, they take the tender, which is what they call a little boat that crewmen use between ships, they row that to Appled or island find Meran.

And she tells them the horrible news of what happened.

So they're fueled with rage and grief and confusion. They rush back to smutty Nose Island and they get there almost the same time that John gets there. And all three of them run to the little red cottage and find the horrific scene exactly as Marende had described it, happening. So that evening, the coroner comes and Marrin and John go back to Portsmouth with him and report the murders to the authorities and give them Lewis's name.

And, of course, the the newspapers run the story immediately within hours of the murders. The story has spread all over the region.

So the morning of the murders, Louise rose back home. He eats breakfast like nothing happened. The people who see him grow into the harbor say he looks down like he hasn't slept all night. But after breakfast, he packs a bag and he takes the nine a.m. train to Boston. And when he gets there, he uses some of the stolen money to get a haircut. He shaves his beard and he buys himself a new suit. But word about the murders is already gotten to Boston.

So he he makes the mistake of going back to his old neighborhood in the north end where everybody recognizes him display despite his cleaned up disguise. So he's arrested. He's taken back to Portsmouth. Now an angry mob is waiting there with torches and pitchforks waiting for him. They they they want to kill him. Obviously, he's walked through them, thrown in jail, and then he's extradited to a more secure prison in Alfred, Maine. So Louis Wagner's trial begins three months later on June 9th, 1873.

There's a ton of evidence against him. There's his bloody shirt that he hid in his boarding room. There's the fact that 16 dollars was stolen from the vet and his suit costs fifteen dollars. And there's one of Marin's nightgown buttons that police find in Lewis's pocket change.

So very damning evidence, but he insists he's innocent even though his alibi is really flimsy. He claims that he was baiting lines for one of the captains, but he can't remember the name of the captain or the boat. He says he was drinking at a bar in Portsmouth that night, got drunk and slept outside, but he can't remember the name of the bar or describe its location.

And there's no witnesses to corroborate his story of a nine days later, on June 17th, 1873, after 55 minutes of deliberation, the jury finds Lewis Wagner guilty of the premeditated murders of Karen and Anthony Christiansen, and he's sentenced to death by hanging.

OK, so even after his guilty verdict and sentencing, Lewis continues to maintain his innocence. Even in the face of the overwhelming evidence, his continual denial causes some people to consider other possibilities. Don't do. Let me get. OK, so one theory is that John Humpbacked was actually the killer since Karen initially cried out. John is killing me when the man first began his attack and the only survivor is his own wife. But there are several eyewitnesses who attest to John being in Portsmouth on the night of the murders and he has no motive to kill his own family members.

Another theory is that Meryn is the murderer.

I was I was that that crossed my mind that maybe other people thought that or maybe they were having an affair or something. But that's just like the one guy.

They do it alone. We don't need a fucking accomplice, you know? I mean, Lewis was the name of the killer. Like, Lewis can do it on his own.

He doesn't need a nefarious accomplice, right? No, but this theory is that she's the murderer by herself and the testimony. So basically because her testimony is the only eyewitness account. In theory, it would have been easier for her to commit the murders than a man traveling in from Portsmouth by rowboat because that right. Is so terrible and large.

Yeah, but and Kennedy, because he knew the husbands weren't going to be there. And they they also say there's no way she could. Some people say there's no way she could have survived a night exposed to the elements in just a nightgown to it. To them. I say, how dare you discount the power of Renia who was there with her? That dog saved her life as a dog owner. I am highly offended by that.

Get used to saying that because you're going to say it all the time. This is like come out assholes. Excuse me. Excuse me. I'm a canine lover and I'd like you to take that back.

OK, so despite all these rumors, the guilty verdict stands. But on June 18th, 1873, the day after his sentencing, Lewis acts on his escape plan and it's one he'd been planning since he arrived at the prison in Maine. He places a stool along with some other stuff that he had lying around his cell under the blanket to make it look like he was in bed sleeping. Classic, the classic move. Right. And then it's three a.m. he used the end of a wooden toothbrush, picked the lock on his cell and makes a getaway during the guards three a.m. break.

And now he's too scared to travel through the woods, which I think is. Kind of a hilarious detail.

He's given some kind of recounting it would scare the Big Bend murderer, so he goes down the road in the middle of the night, he gets to a farm.

The farmer who has no idea who he is or what the fact that he broke out of prison or anything welcomes him inside. And so he actually ends up staying there for a couple of days. But then a group of vigilantes finds out that he's there and circle up and he is taken back to prison as vigilantes will, and get you every time they're not having it.

So this is from Nicolas's email. He says a bit about Wagner. He was handsome and apparently very gregarious, but he was known to all caps, have trouble keeping eye contact during conversations like five exclamation points, he says.

And I refuse to believe that being a fisherman in the late eighteen hundreds didn't come with a little cranial injury every now and again.

But despite the mob that tried to lynch him, he was the straight up Charles Manson of his day where he'd received fan mail in prison and would have people trying to visit him while he awaited trial and literally had a following of whack jobs who were convinced he was innocent.

Do you know who I'm picturing playing him? Michael Shannon. Yeah, right. From Boardwalk Empire and all and every other time he's the villain and every other role, every other things ever played. And one of the more shocking and bizarre sex scenes from a shape of water out of water.

Do you remember that troubling movie is his, but he's fucking his wife in the strangest way. And it was really like a..

It was like a hard cut to the scene where I was just like, oh, on we have we watching aggressively awkward sex right now in this like weird 50s Bozie sex that's happening anyway, trigger warning.

To this day, there are those who insist Louie Wagner was framed in his German descent, made him an easy scapegoat. Speculation also comes up whether it's physically possible to row the 10 miles to and from the islands in the time span where the murders happened. And then parentheses, Nicholas says it can, especially for someone to see hard and as Wagner. Nicholas, thank you for your classic New Hampshire storytelling. It really added.

OK, so on June 25th, now we're out of Nicklaus's email. That's over. On June 25th, 1875, Lewis Wagner is taken to the state prison at Thomaston, Maine, where he is hanged alongside another man who's also guilty of murder. As for Aaron and John Hunt Veghte, they move off of the aisles of Sholes for good and they find themselves a new home in Portsmouth, where John keeps up his fishing business until the end of their lives.

Ivan is destroyed by the murder of his wife, A.J., and he decides to stay in the aisles, but he moves to Apple Door Island. He takes up work as a carpenter, but he's, of course, forever changed by his loss. The once good spirited Ivin hardly talks to anyone. He avoids eye contact. He keeps his head down and just works.

And after after the summer of 1873, he ends up moving back to Norway and he loses touch with Marin and John completely.

Then three years later, Marin dies of natural causes. And at the time, several newspapers print a completely constant, unsubstantiated rumor, saying that Marin confessed to the murders on her deathbed. Which then which then that those yet the those theories that defended Lewis Wagner and is basically one last blow to the only witness and sole survivor of this terrible accident who tried to save her sister at a window and couldn't.

And she gets blamed for it. What a bummer.

So the big rock where Marin hid the night of the Axe murders is now called Marans Rock on that island. The little red cottage burned down several years after the murders. And now you can only see the Stone Foundation on the island. And that is Carina and Emily and Nicolas's horrible hometown story. This muddy knows axe murderers. Wow.

I mean, that was that was a good one. It was horrible. You know, the horrible, good one that was like it was a good one.

It really I think they were all right that it it had a lot of really compelling elements.

And just that idea of her having to jump out the window when her sister and sister in law have been murdered and then she's trying to figure out where to hide in the snow.

And can we say also she took the dog. She couldn't save her sister. She saved the dog, which is like such a heroic I mean, you know, it's like she I don't think that someone who was, like, killing everyone was just like, oh, them take the dog, though. Like, that's just like the saddest thing, that she couldn't save her sister. She couldn't save her sister in law. And she saved the one thing she could, which was the dog.

It's just like, incredible.

Poor thing. Yeah. Poor thing. Great job. Thank you.

Should we do, like, one home town each? I mean, one fucking array. OK, let's do it. Go ahead. You go first. This is from Maya George on Instagram. My fucking hurry this week is that I was recently admitted to my top choice law school, the University of Iowa College of Law.

I was the only it was the only school I applied to. And I was thrilled to hear back less than two weeks after submitting my application.

Smart person, imposter syndrome is a condition I know all too well. And this acceptance went a long way to reminding me that I am capable and I look forward to advocating for the environment through the law. Assess DGM. Awesome.

Congratulations. I find your murderousness at what was I called the University of Iowa College of Law.

OK, let's see. This one is from moeny and it's fucking her. A side effect of covid vaccine is serotonin. Hello.

Oh, it is safe to say that being a single night shift ICU nurse during the pandemic has been a generally quiet crise on drives home. Sleeping through the day and drive through meals paired with a bottle of wine has been most of my last year. The day I lost my first patient to covid, my closet shelf fell down from the sheer weight of my coping mechanism shopping. It was too much to handle and I just closed the door and figured I would deal with it someday.

But I have been unable to deal with this closet of shit for over a year. However, the other day I got my second covid vaccine.

Oh thank God.

And my anxiety depression has lightened enough to deal with this closet and it is finally fixed. I don't need any accolades for working through this. I love my job and it is my purpose in this life. But this pandemic has emotionally destroyed me and many other front line workers. The vaccine finally rolling out me finally have the energy to doing something about my closet and my fellow health care workers feeling actually protected for the first time is a huge fucking habré. I'm sure my therapist will unpack this all this week and as I've been hiding the closet situation, I am man, but I wanted my favorite ladies to know first.

Thanks for all you do, Ms. Sweet. Oh my God.

I don't want to get like I know you don't want to hear it all the time, but thanks for all you fucking do. My God, yeah, that's a that's a beautifully written message and it makes us very happy, the idea that frontline workers are finally getting relief and getting what they need is the best God. All right. Yeah.

So minus from DEEDI zero three two three on Instagram.

My fucking ray is I am pregnant with my first child.

A baby girl being pregnant during a pandemic can be really tough and isolating at times. I had my 20 week anatomy scan on January 20th. I also happened to live in the suburbs of D.C. So not like that day wasn't already exciting enough. The scan showed that baby girl is, for lack of a better term, absolutely perfect and developing the way she should. I was overwhelmed with emotions after getting that news, but then tuning in to the inauguration coverage and knowing that my baby girl will not know.

In America where a woman has never been vice president is just amazing.

Wow.

I have so much hope for the future of our country and know that my baby girl has this incredible female role models to look up to. And then a bunch of happy, smiling, crying, amazing emojis. Yay!

Congratulations. Congratulations. That's what their names did. Her name's Didi. Well, her Instagram name is Dee Dee Dee zero three two three. Amazing.

Because my this mine is also from a D. This is from so and it just says my fucking hooray. We're finally pouring the slab on my first project as a builder, female, disabled. And they said I couldn't do it. Well, fuck everyone and do it anyway.

Oh my God. Why are these all going to make me cry tonight. So good. Wow. Fucking hell fucking.

Yeah. Let thanks for sending those in so much, letting us share those. I hope you all know that you're supporting and fucking giving hope to so many other people. And I know people read the hashtag fucking ray and are just like so supportive of each other.

It's so important. It's a it's a fucking new day.

I mean, everything's still really nineties and we can all get there together.

I'm I'm so excited to meet. Yeah.

There's there's really good news out there. And we just have to remind each other every day it gets better and. Yeah, it's so cool. So thanks for listening.

Thank you guys for being here with us as we do this and stay sexy and don't get murdered by Elvis.

Do you want a cookie? I.