Hey, you guys were so excited to share with you an episode of our new Exactly Right podcast that's Messed Up NSV podcast, it's hosted by S.V., You superfans and comedians Kara Klencke and Lisa Trager. Kara and Lisa have been working on this podcast for over two years. So we're so excited that we finally get to share Episode one with you here in my favorite murder feed. Episodes two through five of the podcast are out now. So after you listen head over to that's messed up.

To subscribe and catch up on each episode, Kara and Liz will take listeners through an episode of Law & Order Special Victims Unit. They recap not only the plot, but the classic ArcView moments and tropes that occur. Then the walk you through the true crime or crimes that the S.V. episode was based on. And then finally they'll interview a guest who appeared on that episode. Some guest interviews they've already that have already come out include Oscar winner Marcia Gay Harden, Kate Burton, who you may know from Grey's Anatomy and Scandal, and the actress Ari Graynor.

They'll bounce all around the 22 seasons of ArcView and every Tuesday they'll announce the following weeks. As you episodes, you can watch along with them and catch up. But even if you don't watch, you'll get a full and detailed recap from the hosts. Yeah, you kind of don't have to watch. Oh, and also we should mention that even if you don't watch as a viewer, you're not really familiar. This podcast is for all true crime lovers because it's equal parts for you, but then also true crimes.

Check it out. Even if law and order is new to you and it'll make you laugh, which is awesome to. Yes. So enjoy the first episode right now and then head over to that's messed up four episodes two, three, four and five. And don't forget to subscribe to That's Messed Up and US View podcast on Stitcher, Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you listen. And if you like what you hear, please write Kara and Lisa a great review.

That's right. And you can follow them on Twitter at Messed Up Pod and on Instagram at that messed up pod gang of the Law and Order franchises, SAORVIEW is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies these episodes are based on. These are our stories on.

Yay! Hello, welcome to the first episode of That's Messed Up NSV You podcast, we are comedian slash ASV Superfans. I'm Carol Blank. I'm Lisa Trager and we're very excited. We're so excited. And obviously this is about SVO, true crime, and we will get into all of that. But first, we want to introduce each other because I got sick. It's like a first date. We want you guys to know who we are. Like, who are these random women that are.

Yeah. That look dutiful in our drawing. And you're like, who? Who are these gals with such great hair? And, you know. Yeah. So we're both comedians. I've been doing comedy for about 12 years, up comedy for about 12 years. I'm married to another standup comedian. We have a 20 month old toddler baby girl. And Rosie did start saying my name. I don't know if you want to tell anyone that her name, but no, Rosie does say Liz's name and also she now, when I am busy, she goes, Mama podcast's.

She's so good.

So she'll be like, even if I'm like in the bathroom, I can hear her being like Mama podcast. My favorite is when she goes nuts. Anyways, I'm a I'm a comedian as well. I've been doing it eleven years. Oh, nine is when I started. And you know, I dabble in some acting, but mostly, mostly we do comedy and I am not married. I would like to be married. My ulterior motive to my whole career is to find a spouse.

But you can't be like two. You can't know too much about me. But you have. Yeah, I don't know. I am looking for a wife. I will settle for a husband, but I would prefer a wife and then I but I am child free by choice. But I'm on aunt in the traditional sense where I have nieces and nephews and then I do feel like I have kind of babies coast to coast that I like buying presents for and hugging.

Yeah. And that may have a relationship with my daughter.

So I'll tell people a little bit about you, Liza, so that you don't actually have to like, brag on yourself because you do have a very impressive life resume.

Lisa came to this country at age three from Russia. She has it's actually very delightful to hear her speaking like Russian English to her parents on the phone.

Yeah. What's even better is trying to explain to my parents what a podcast is. Yeah, that's the most fun thing to try to explain. She's a Chicago native. She moved to New York after doing standup in Chicago for a long time. And that's where we met Hanna, who is our intrepid producer.

Hanna, say hi. What's up? If you ever hear a third voice talking on our podcast, it's usually Hanna are amazingly organized producer.

We both have known her for years and years through comedy. Liza has had a half hour on Comedy Central. She's got a half hour special on Netflix as part of the degenerates. Also, she says she dabbles in acting. She recently, I thought, was a scene stealer in the Amazon movie King of Staten Island.

So if you want to go check that out and get a little bit more of an idea of if you want to see me in a low ponytail and a tie, that movie that's like you're you're your waitress outfit in that movie is exactly like what?

My weight yourself. It was like pretty much like just so unflattering. I had a clip on tie. Like, I very much identified with your character.

And in the makeup chair I kept being like, are you sure we just can't raise the ponytail? Maybe a fun, messy bun? And they're like, no. And I kept trying to fight. And they're like, just said, no. I'm like, I just can't imagine. Judd is like, give her a low ponytail or else is a side part and gel it down. But I guess he he did do that.

You are also an amazing stand up and I guess I just just call myself amazing. But we are and I loved going to your album. Recording your album Undefeated is so fucking good. My I love the Disney Princess joke.

There's a if you're looking for the best transitional lenses joke that there is Undefeated is the album for you.

And I remember sitting on the floor and it was because it was sold out and it was so much fun. And then you are a very skilled writer. I always love when I type what how I talk into something and then you make it palatable for the world and grandma, which is amazing.

But yeah, girl code younger and then the biggest brag of all fucking time as you wrote for Drag Race, which is amazing.

We like to say our Venn diagram of friendship is S.V.. You drag Race Housewives. That is us. Yeah, we love housewives. In fact, today you're going to get a little taste of housewives and we didn't even play on that. That's pretty fucking cool. It just naturally are all of our passions collide. Now, I just need Miley Cyrus to do an episode and have a bit more drag queen episodes also of US view. We need to facilitate a message.

Some agents. Yeah. So, yeah, we have a lot of common interests. And before I met you, Kara, I like even though I was living in Chicago, I knew who you are. And I think you like all girls. Comics know each other, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're all like pretty on board with each other. And when we started there were less. Now it's like so fun to have so many housewife fans as comedians ever.

But we met at you CBE at your show, if you believe we had we had met, I think. But this was like the first time we truly connected was at my show in the green room. We started talking about how we both, like one of us, brought up SVO. We were like, oh my God, I love that. And then you told me about this Twitter account.

Yes, doink doink, which is doing doink and it's amazing.

It will add tweets any time, any law and order is on television, what episode, what channel and when it starts and it influences my life. Sometimes I'm on Twitter and I'm like, oh my God, in three minutes and I'll go on immediately.

So yeah, we discovered that we both love Eastview, we both love true crime. We have a favorite forensic pathologist in common, Dr. Michael Baden. I know we love him. Yeah. If you have another favorite, let us know because he is the king of Lee. Dr. Lee is a good one, the one who did like, I think OJ and stuff like that. He's he's also a good forensic pathologist. But Dr. Martin on his show autopsy.

Great.

It was just so good because people would write to him and be like, please help, please. You got to switch the death certificate to be not natural so we can investigate. And I just love that he's a superhero and travels with his little briefcase from town to town solving crimes.

But yeah, and we love his view and the way that I'm assuming everyone does, which is you want to have sex with either Christopher Maloney or Mariska Hargitay or both of them at the same time like that, as that's not why we're watching a glimpse of Stabler shirtless and angry and, you know, contemplating about his divorce. That's what that's what we want. Yeah. I have, like, love this show from the beginning. It premiered on my birthday in nineteen ninety nine.

Really.

So yeah, it's a I think it's written in the stars for me to be obsessed with the show. I remember one time I went to a Paley Center event and it was the View panel and I bought my ticket too late so I didn't even get to sit in the room with the people. I had to sit in a side room at the event and watch it on the screen. And then afterwards, me and a few, like ten women, just stood outside in the rain waiting to see Mariska and Peter walk out.

And then afterwards we were just deflated.

And if you were one of those women, please let me know if you were standing in the rain with me.

And you can do that ad that's messed up pod at Gmail dot com.

I want to know because I did feel very I felt happy to see a glimpse of them together and in love, but then also sad for myself that I was willing to get wet just to look at her once.

I don't know. She lived in my same neighborhood in New York for eleven years and I never saw her. My sister did, but I never saw her. If we can see I mean, it's like house. I would love to see that she needs to do a seventy three questions I on for Vogue. I want to see the inside of her home so bad. So this podcast is two years in the making over two years. I originally came up with this idea in like twenty seventeen and had a sorry list.

I had a different partner associated. We recorded a bunch of episodes together and then just scheduling wise it wasn't going to work out with her. She's her name is Jack is Nebraska. You should all follow her and listen to her podcast. Page seven is one of her podcasts and it's very popular and she I don't think she just had time for this, so. Yeah. Thank you, Jackie. Honestly, I'm so glad you couldn't do it. This is a dream come true that now when I watch this view and people are like, what are you doing?

I'm like, I'm working.

I can't do anything with you.

So Lisa, it perfectly was moving to L.A. at the same time. So it all worked out. And then, you know, we ended up going to pitching. Exactly right. And Hannah had already been thinking of doing something like this. So it was like a person, no matter what I love so much is in the emails, like when our manager messaged us to say that Hannah also wanted to do as the podcast was the same day that you gave birth to Rosie.

Yeah. So it's just so cute that I'm like, oh, this is great news. She is in labor. But then I still emailed you being like, I know you're in labor, but we have to write this thing for the thing. And our manager was like, leave Cara alone. OK, you're right. You're right.

We should let her give birth to Rosie. Yeah.

Yeah. So a labor of love. This has been a long time coming. And we're so excited that now you guys are hearing it and it's called that's messed up. And that is a for those who know and for those who don't, it is a reference to ice tea. I used to say that's messed up all the time. Apparently writers it was apparently was a big drinking game and the writers stopped writing it in for him. But from seasons like two to nine or ten, I think you can catch ice t saying, oh, that's messed up about a lot of stuff.

And it's true. Like when Lisa and I are researching the these true crimes or watching these episodes, we definitely say that to each other. All the time, yes, very heinous crimes. Yeah, so essentially the layout of the show, in case you're just stumbling upon it right now, is we are going to jump all over the shows, 22 season history. We're going to pick episodes that we like and that are based on true crimes. And we're going to do a recap, little analysis of the episode.

And then we're going to do a deep dive into the true crime that the episode was based on.

And then our dream come true for us as we get to interview an actor from the show, from that episode. So every episode we get to talk to a person from that episode. Can you believe it? Oh, my God.

And we're talking to some really awesome people. So, yeah, we're really excited.

And we recognize that Saorview is a fantasy about the legal system and we love the show. We love the characters. But we do also realize this is not the reality of how cops behave. This is absolutely not how the justice system works. And we plan to call that out whenever we can. Yeah, I mean, the show is called Espoo and the show is about special victims. And our podcast is called That's Messed Up. So obviously we plan to tackle some pretty intense subject matter, whether it is fictional or not, and where comedians.

So our goal is to entertain. But we will also be taking a page from Eyelets Olivia Benson's book and always being respectful of the victims and our listeners.

So we're going to get into our episode and sidenote, we did record this before the election. So if you hear us talking about forty five as present day, that's because we did not have our celebratory election yet.

Yeah, we're so excited for you guys to hear this podcast and to get started. And I mean, ultimately my goal is just to be able to afford Hulu without ads, guys.

And I want to meet those women in the rain and find a spouse. No, and we need and we want to be guest stars on the show. We want this you we need to become so popular that the S.V. Writers Room is like, well, I guess these ladies have to find a dead body. They just let us find a body. We're not asking to be incorporated into the couch. We just want to find a body. Yeah. Pre theme song.

Pre theme song. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, let's get into Buli, season 12, episode 18, this starts with like the classic disclaimer that's like this is a fictional story and does not depict any real person or event.

We don't believe you. Yeah, we started a podcast about it. It also starts in an art gallery. And it made me miss New York. Yeah. Yeah, it starts tingling whine. This episode opens hot with a cameo from Viva La Diva herself, Luann de la Countess Luann. Can you believe that our interests just intertwine. So it's really wild. And she was wearing a silly hat, too.

I'm actually like, no, she's not actually really surprised that more housewives have not done cameos on this.

Like, I feel like they get like Pat Ray. No, not powerit. What's his name? Pat. The guy from New York one. I have no idea. He's like an iconic New York guy. He's always like doing little news clips. Other episodes we're watching have Tamron Hall, like all kinds of like New York journalist people and Sue Simmons, like Chuck Scarborough, like people that do local news in New York are always in these episodes. And I'm like, the housewives are part of that cannon.

I just wonder if, shockingly, Lou Ann is the best actor of them all, like, oh, maybe. Oh, you're right. Like Ramona. Like, I don't know how to behave poorly.

I don't know I don't know how to behave in Ramona a I mean, Luanne's nuts, but yeah, I think man has a level of professionalism that maybe the other queens and she just had to play, she just had to play like sort of a pompous like art person and that kind of like works for her. So we yeah, we started this gallery opening in like waltzes in like just yelling the name of the artist in the middle of a gallery, just Andrius, where are you like walks into an event like that.

She brings him back, sit back like to like the behind the scenes of the art gallery to be like I love this new piece you did. It's so beautiful. And it's just drips of red going down a wall. And he's like, that's not my piece of art, that's real blood.

So Dunton, you know how awesome they should have an all musical episode of SVO. OK, I mean that's definitely something you could pitch. I don't know how that would work.

Daria did it. Why not. So the blood is coming from upstairs where like a body has been murdered, the body of Ellen Sizzlin, she's the CFO of a company called Luscious Grape, which is like a high end alcohol distributor. And she's just lying there with her blood pooling down this bench that has now gone into the art gallery. The cause of death is an exsanguinated from a severed carotid. She also has anal trauma. There's no DNA and there's signs of a struggle.

And this always reminds me of the John Mulaney joke. And I'm mad at him so hard that he has the best view jokes that have ever been written. Yeah, and every but it is like, you know, you can't swear on TV, but you can say anal trauma.

Yeah. Not even before the credits. What the. Oh, the credits are just getting started when they're talking about anal trauma. And so yeah, they find out that the show downstairs is called In Death The Politics of Blood. So it's all just very coincidental. And the squatter initially thinks that this is just like a date gone wrong. And that's how we piece out of the cold open. So we go to the site of luscious grapes. So you need to understand to understand this episode, you got to meet all the characters at the luscious grape company.

OK, this high end liquor distributor, wine and alcohol distributor.

So the first decision, not fancy or sexy job like of all the businesses, it's just like I distributer know when you work in wine and alcohol distribution like you do, like wine and dine big clients like I do think it is kind of cool.

I don't know. I know people who work at like Diageo and like big alcohol companies and you get to go to like a lot of parties and like do and it seems like a pretty fun job. I don't know. All right. You could sell booze like this. Tastes great.

Oh, no. I do know is when I waitress get excited when the beer guys would come, you know. Yeah. Like you want this free sample. Here's some cuzzi.

Yes, I did enjoy that. I think it's really the next natural step would be you were running an international company of alcohol distribution and many spreadsheets.

Yeah.

You know, working on this with you, I'm like so impressed with your organization and all the jobs and the spreadsheets. And so I was, you know, hyping you up to a friend and she goes, yeah, we make spreadsheets. I work in an office. Why are you so. Yeah, I have spreadsheet. And then someone else was like, yeah, tabs and a spreadsheet. I do that too. Like no one is shocked.

They've been doing it for decades and I have been talking about it for two weeks nonstop. How there's multiple tabs and a spreadsheet. Never seen it before.

But hey, I love your adoration of my spreadsheet so you can keep it coming.

OK, so basically on the list, great website. There's this super fucking weird video. It's like a cult recruitment video, honestly, like you first meet Annette Cole, who is the president CEO. Then you meet Ellen, who is the dead woman who was the CFO.

And it's like we started this in our garage in Jersey City.

I'm like, OK, and then what does this whole thing with starting companies and garages and we all have to give a round of applause. No one cares. Yeah, it's crazy.

You had a garage in Jersey City.

I lived in a one bedroom apartment in New York with two one window. So you meet all the different characters at this place. I'm going to just break it down for you who they all are. There's kind of like a young douche named Justin. There's a young girl like a baby spice named Corinne. There's an old Australian dude named Donald. And then there's like a gay dude named Bruce. I would never just call somebody, just the gay dude, but they literally do that in the episode like ten times.

Like, it's his only identity is that he's a gay man and his name is Bruce and his name is Person on Earth.

So those are the main characters that we meet in this like insane recruitment video. And all they talk about is how like much they love working there and how it's this, like, amazing workplace.

And I'm like, you just know somebody something's fucked. No one talks about their workplace that way.

Like, you can be like, oh, it's great to work here, but they're like, this is a family. It's just too creepy. Yeah.

You know, something on the Internet, if everybody keeps saying we're family, that's not something I'm.

Yeah, so they're luscious grape dot net. Is there a website? I guess luscious grape dotcom was taken by like a drag queen or something there. Also, I need to point out to our producer, there is a coproducer on the show named Speed Weed. We need to get that person for an interview.

Just let's make a note like was speed weed?

I always see their name in the credits.

And I'm like, are you a man or a woman? I need to know more about speed weed. So a neighbor approaches Benson and Stabler tells them that Andrius the artist, it's kind of a creep that turns out to be sort of a dead end. He's like. A douche, but he's not the guy that killed Alan. He goes for hotter girls, basically, like this is another episode where they keep acting like Ellen is the ugliest woman on the planet.

But she's actually just like a perfectly lovely looking person who's not a supermodel. And Andrius has continued to use Ellen's blood on an art piece, which is creepy, but he has an alibi. So he's not he's not like a suspect anymore.

So then we get into meeting Annette Cole in person, who is the CEO and founder of the company.

She's like, Ellen was my best friend, the younger sister I never had. We had dinner the night before.

Luscious Grape was our life, Jersey City family, whatever it's like red flag central, I think. I mean, just the way she's talking like no one has. I don't know such a perfect relationship with their coworker and business partner, but maybe I'm jaded. We also have to lie to the cops because if you say one thing, it could be used against you. True, true. True. What if she was like, yeah, she was kind of lazy and then, yeah, they're like, eat, it's you.

Yeah. Amanda Knox, perfect example, said a couple of weird things and was in jail for like three years.

OK, so Bruce kind of gives us an insight into Ellen that's a little bit different, saying that she was a blast at parties. They call her a fruit fly. I don't think we're allowed to say that anymore. It's like there's a couple of words for women that have a lot of gay male friends. And I don't think any of them really fly anymore, including fruit fly fruit flies. Probably the nicest, probably the nicest. But I don't think that many gay guys like being called a fruit.

Yeah, yeah.

This episode, they call him a fruit for times like it's very I mean, what year is this episode from?

It's I just have so many fruit tattoos that to me I, I, I it only it's only, you know, like I would love to be fruity but I understand, you know.

Yeah.

So Bruce reveals that they've gone to A.A. she's sober. So it appears she's been drinking the night of the murder. So that's a weird thing.

Like they say, they say that she gets drunk so she can fuck because no one wants to fuck her ugly face.

Yeah, they there she is deformed. So the cops get into Ellen's phone and then we get into like a serious tangent in this episode. So I'm just going to go into it really quickly because it does waste a ton of time. But there's a tangent where Ellen has been buying leather goods at a website called My Leather Fantasy, not a Sanam. It's high end leather goods. The guy who owns it is they want Alvares. He's been harassing her.

So they find they go to find him.

He gets shot by a man in the street who says he killed my Peggy because he harassed this other man's wife, Peggy, until she had a heart attack, because he thinks that harassing people will cause them to leave bad reviews online.

And a bad review is just as good as a good review. So this is some kind of psychotic Yelp conspiracy where like people are still going to go to your website because they have reviews that this man calls me in the middle of the night and screams at me.

I think I would pass on my leather fantasy. He also has a great quote quote of this episode for me. And he goes, OK, so I harass the bitch. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah, he's like, I didn't kill anyone. I just called an old woman with Alzheimer's at three a.m. and screamed at her about paying for her leather.

So basically he's the like. Yes, he's got got yeah. Any press is good press. Exactly.

So once we get to the end of this tangent, he's got an alibi for Ellen's murder. So even though he was harassing her, he didn't do anything.

Now we get the flip. The script has flipped a little bit. Warner comes in, our girl, Tamara Tunie, not to me, the luggage brand. And she's saying it might not be murder. She's ruling the manner of death is undetermined. And we also discover, which I feel like you and I were just talking about this the other day, that Ellen has trichotillomania, which also you pull your hair out. Yeah, I have a friend who does that.

Yeah. Oh, no. I was talking about with my husband because in an episode of Ten Fifteen, one of the girls pulled out a piece of her hair. I thought maybe they were going to go into a trichotillomania plot, but it was not. I'm just impressed that you can say it fully.

I mean, it's it's actually pretty phonetic. But yeah, there's also another fun quote. Yeah. Benson goes and got anal trauma on the way down. Oh, yeah. I don't remember, but I have it in all big letters, right? Like they're basically acting like it's possible that she just fell against this face because she was so drunk and the big chunk of glass, like, severed her carotid artery.

Is the carotid artery in your butthole? No, it's in your neck. That's where the that's where the the cut was. But yeah, that's why Benson saying she's like, what? Then she somehow got anal trauma, like during the fall. Like she's like not buying that this was an accident.

OK, so everyone say, yeah, you guys are such good friends. She said as an airborne you didn't even comment on that. But no, I can be so loving towards the way your carotid artery being in your butthole is really funny.

OK, so everyone, that luscious grape is stonewalling and like a very creepy way, like they're all saying the same words. They're all saying, like her death is a major loss to our company. Like they're all it's very koltai.

They've been told, instructed what to say Bensons like if you guys are a family, why didn't you know that your best friend and sister's ripping hair out of her hair? Yeah. Mental illness is not a game. No. So, yeah, they break someone breaks into Allans Law. If the cops go over, they find immediately they find the one thing that the the person that broke in was looking for, which is this little pande, a flash drive.

The flash drive has tons of videos on it. Twist with Anett, the CEO, like completely terrorizing her employees, like in a way that's not just like, hey, guys, we need to unproductivity today. You guys messed up last week. It's like, well, that's not even kind of menacing. No. Yeah, I know. I'm just saying a boss. Yeah, you're right. It's OK. You do yours OK. I mean, boss, that's not criminal.

Would be like, are you stupid. I asked for that an hour ago. Yeah, yeah. Yes. OK, so we're like it's Miranda Priestly. It's kind of like the level I think of. But she wouldn't say stupid. Miranda Priestly would go, I demand excellence. Bring fifty skirts to the appointment today.

Don't ask me another question. I don't have time for your bullshit. Yeah. So she's calling, she's like making homophobic slurs. She's terrorizing them. She slaps Ellen across the face. OK, so they confronted that with the videos. It's twenty films of her being a complete psycho. The waiter from the dinner the night before says that she was also screaming at Ellen the night before she was murdered. And it is just like denying, pretending to cry.

It's like crazy how she almost she offers, like, no excuse. She's like, this is out of context. It's like there's no context for slapping your employee across the face is like a good thing. Yeah. And then it goes the queen of means on a tear, queen of mean. So Bruce, so as they go check in with all the different people that are in the little luscious, great cast list. So Bruce, the gay guy has a two hundred thousand dollar car.

Karen, the young girl is in therapy. I don't know why that is considered something lavish, but I guess it's like they think something's going on with her just in the young douche has this really nice house with like multiple levels, which in New York is a staircase in New York is weird and like very that's a status symbol.

He lives with his mother and we are his mother yelling down just in Mother Nature juice.

And it's like, really what's going on? His mother is a disabled former opera singer. OK, keep that in mind for later. So Huang tells them that tells the squad that all these people have Stockholm Syndrome, like they've all bonded to this woman emotionally to prevent being abused by her, which kind of makes sense. And they find out also that this company's about to be sold for five hundred dollars million. We get a Morning Joe segment.

OK, so the tapes get leaked to the media because Ellen sent them before she died. She sent them to the media, like, I can't handle this anymore. Probably right after the dinner she had with a network that was yelling at her and threw a glass at her, I think.

So we get to this mob scene where all these people are attacking a net. It's like honestly iconic. Like she looks amazing. She's got dark sunglasses on, like probably something with like a fur collar. I don't really remember a like a head scarf over her head. And she's like and they're like construction workers are yelling, suck it, bitch at her. Look, I don't condone calling women a bitch in this way, but honestly, like, really makes me giggle in this context.

You need to watch the episode. She's like, I'm going to sue the NYPD for emotional distress. And she's just like out of my way. It's just kind of a fun scene. It reminds me of Layla. Yeah, it's cruel. It's Sunset Boulevard. Like, it's just very. Yeah. John Collins. Yes, very. Joan Collins.

Fifty one percent. Yeah. So all this press comes out, half a billion dollar offer is rescinded. The press is completely savaging Annette. Annette calls a press conference. She's weepy, she's apologizing.

She's like, I'm so sorry to everyone. And then she literally flip the switch, tells everybody totally. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, doesn't tell anyone they're cool, fuck you, fuck you, and then kills herself. At this press conference in front of everybody sits like a with a guy with a gun sorry, shoots or sells out a gun and is like boom blows our brains out. Shocking.

It's very shocking. I hope no one got ideas from this episode. No, very shocking. So Huang said it's like kind of classic. She like feigned contrition to draw people in, but then traumatizes them. So it's like what you get when you mix a sociopath and a narcissist, a ticking time bomb. That's what Huang says. So Annette leaves every penny in her will to her dog. Nothing goes to her, quote unquote, family members that luscious grape.

And then Bruce gets nailed in a hit and run. We essentially find out that all the luscious grape employees are turning on one another because they were all holding on just until this 500 million dollar sale so they could, like, be rich. And they all thought that each other was the one that killed Elin and, like, jeopardized the whole thing. So Baby Spice is the one that hits Bruce with her grandfather's car because she thinks Bruce is the one that killed Elin.

And Bruce is like, I didn't do it. She was dead when I got to her house. So then they basically kind of figure out old Australian guy's the one who did the break and they all had their own little crimes. The last person left is Justin, the douche who lives with his mom. So they get to his house and Warner shows up and we figure out that the reason Ellen was drunk is because someone. Got her drunk through her butthole to your butthole.

You were right about something with the bottle. Yes. And this is why we watch this view of her last second, a last, alas, but chugging west. Yeah.

And the thing is, it's not like someone or the medical examiner told Bentson like, hey, by the way, something with the alcohol. She's just like the opera singer, the throat jitterbug. Oh, yeah. Like she just like I love detective work like that. Well, she pieces together. Yeah. Because what was her blood alcohol was like. How did you know she didn't drink it. Because there was no alcohol in her stomach so there was no alcohol in our actual stomach.

But she had a blood alcohol of one point six which is way over the limit.

So she they basically say, oh yeah, it's an old alcoholics trick to put alcohol up through your anus or girls do it with tampons. I had heard of girls doing it with tampons. I've never tried it. I like to just get drunk the old fashioned way. But so basically Benson realizes that they have to go to Justin, OK? And we kind of figure this out as we go at the end. Justin admits that he came on to Ellen.

She rejected him. She tried again. She slapped him. He pushed her. She fell into the base and saw the girl, and then the glass was in her neck. So that actually was an accident. And he's like, there was so much blood. So then he put the alcohol up her butt to make it seem like she was drunk and had this accident. Right. And then the cops basically get it out of him that he grew up learning how to do this trick because his mother is an alcoholic opera singer who couldn't damage her vocal cords.

And so that's how he would help his mom get drunk is like pudding. That's why the entire episode when we've gone to Justin's house, the mom keeps going.

Mother needs her juice. It's like her special juice. Oh, so he's but she's been helping.

He's been watching Mom. Oh, my God. You know, as he's getting carried away by the cops, the cops don't even care about this old woman. She's just left.

She literally just it seems like the cops are like my.

Yeah. And he goes, mother's very clever. She taught me a lot of things.

And you're like, what else in the end is very Willy Loman or it's like they all wanted money. They all try and they get nothing. Yeah. Gary Willy Wonka, they all you get nothing that you stole Fizi lifting drinks. You let your boss slap you across the face, you got nothing. How much money would you work out of?

Like let's say you were treated like this at a job, slapped in the face, insulted. What would be the paycheck you'd need? Four slaps, well, I mean, millions. OK, I don't I can't I don't know, I get into a million a year. You'd be OK with your boss pulling your hair and slapping you once a week.

Ten, ten million. Ten million to get out once a week.

Oh, it's a once a week slap. Yeah. Yeah, I guess you'd get used to it. Yeah, that sounds terrible. All right. All right, let's move on. I love this episode, though. It's got so much. It's just like a it's it's got twists and turns and chug is a housewife.

Yeah. Leather fantasy is that we were going to start with hours from the past. Yeah, a baby spice reference just from, you know, a grandpa, the name Peggie, our friend's mom's name, Peggie. We like that.

Yeah, it was a good episode. Oh, well, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to get into the actual scenario that this is based on.

Welcome back, great ads. So this is fun, this is not even a full time, like is there a there was a little tax evasion, but this character is based on a New York legend, Leona Helmsley.

And I watched an ad channel. Barbara investigates. Barbara Walters is one of my heroes. And so I was really happy to see their interview. And this interview took place like right before she was going to jail. So she was not happy. She was pissed.

And she kept playing like, I'm the good person. I've done nothing wrong. So it was like really lovely while walking around her mansion. So loved that.

So who Leona is, she was a billionaire hotel maven and her biggest rival was Donald Trump. Which you've got me on Leona Helmsley site immediately. And, you know, it's crazy who brought Leona down was Rudy Giuliani.

Oh my God. Which now is all connected. Like, were they friends even back then in the 80s? Were they always conniving to this evil, you know, white supremacist lunacy? I don't I just don't know what it is.

Or so that's just interesting how this is all happening. It was the 80s. Greed was good, baby.

She was known for lavish parties, celebrities, and she never had to pay for her parties because they were in her hotels. But like Elizabeth Taylor would party Michael Jackson, like in the 80s, the Hensley's were the fuckin party billionaires of New York.

I just want to say really quick that my family has stayed at the Helmsley Sand Castle in Sarasota, Florida, and it's not that nice.

You know, this is the 80s. I bet they always say they're in the 20s and it was not great. Yeah, that's like most of Vegas.

It's like this used to be nice. Yeah, fucking gross. The 80s were a pretty. Garish, is that a word? OK, so she I'll just give you some stats, though. Fifty thousand apartments they owned from her and her husband, four thousand five hundred hotel rooms and seven million square feet of office space. Whoa. Yeah.

And they lived on the top floor of their most grand hotel, the Park Lane Hotel. She didn't grow up rich. She was a 1920s daughter, Jew, immigrants from Lithuania. Poor dad made hats. She dropped out of high school at 16, married and divorced twice, mother by 20. So, you know, nothing too wild. But then she became a receptionist at a real estate firm within a few months, was a broker and within a few years, top realtor.

She was a closer. Wow. Yeah. Immigrants know how to work hard. And so when she met her husband, she was older and she was 40 and she was worth a million dollars. And I just feel like as a single chick, single mom in New York, being worth a million dollars is impressive in the 80s. Yeah, it's super impressive and big fun thing. Harry was married.

Oh. So she met this dude and she's like, we're in love.

And he left his Quaker wife in a second for this party bitch, because he wanted to live a fun life. And his other wife, like they didn't drink no coffee, just like very religious losers. And he also started out poor. He would collect rent for tenements. And then he crushed it during the Depression because the banks needed someone to manage all these buildings. And so he started managing buildings for banks during the Depression. OK, and so that's how he made money and he found investors.

And yeah. So he became a real estate person. I don't really know there like this real estate cat power couple. Then once they get together. Yeah.

And he like they really did love each other, it seems like I don't think it was just for money. I mean, maybe it was, but he was excited to finally live this like gold fancy fun lifestyle after like living with his wife for forty years, who are they're married for thirty four years.

And Leona was more fun, you know. Well that was their big age difference. No, I don't think I don't know. OK, good question. But I don't know.

I just feel like if he was managing buildings like the Depression, he's probably a little older than Leo. Yeah. Yeah. And he died before. Yeah. So you're right. Also he did OK.

So in nineteen sixty one he had his dreams come true and he bought the Empire State Building so he owned the Empire State Building.

I try to see who owns it now and it's just a giant trust. And I was like, I can't, I can't, I can't wade through this.

I can't wade through all these people who own it. But the Empire, he own the Empire State Building, but he didn't treat it like a jewel. And that's the thing like he wanted. He's he grew up poor. And when you're poor, I think it fucks up your brain because, like, he reduced the maintenance crew and the cleaning people discipling in the eighties. I feel like the first time I went there was in the 80s or the 90s.

And it was not nice. It was gross.

Yeah. He just didn't let it. He just had that. Hold your money, Taieb. And so he didn't even do anything fun, whatever. So they had money, they married and she just revolutionized his life through gold on everything and bought all these luxury hotels him, her and Trump are fighting. Yeah, it's weird that they're fighting because they're like twin people like that. Yeah, well, that's why they don't like each other. Narcissists don't want another nurse.

Right. That's true. And then and they know their tricks. So and we talked about this before we recorded. When is a woman an actual like bitch evil person or is she just like a Miranda Priestly and really good at her job and being judged unfairly and like men want a mommy to baby them and not a boss? Right. So it's like, what should evil or not, you ask?

Yes, bitch is crazy firing people. She would fire people on the spot. Someone would be at the elevator. She would be like, you're fired. Like she loved to fire people. She was a micromanager and her nickname was the Queen of Mean. Yeah. Which they say in this episode. And so what happened was she joined with this advertising company and they were like, this is what we're going to do and no one's ever done this before.

They're like, you're the queen of your castle and we're going to put you in the commercials and you are the queen at the hotels. And if people come to these hotels, they get to hang out with the fucking queen. And then she fired the person who made the advertising campaign. So that's happened.

But, yeah, she was an iron fist, like she wanted shit to be perfect. And why not? You know, her her name's on it. Yeah. So she loved firing people. She was suspicious of everyone, suspicious of her son, everyone stealing stuff. And you're asking, is she evil or is she just a tough boss? OK, so her son dies about forty two. She turned on her daughter in law, gave her the bill for the funeral and to move the body from New York to Florida and evicted her and her grandchild from the Helmsley property.

Wow. Yeah, she's like, that's despicable.

And she was cheap and just fought with people like haggled constantly, even though she lost money. And she sounds like she could be president, except that she's a woman that is was upsetting.

I'd rather Leona be the president. I wish I had a. Sense of humor. You know, Ali, she had time, like, dressed well, you know what I mean, not a boxy suit.

Like, it is crazy to have these two despicable lunatics from the 80s and one is the leader of our country right now. Yeah, it is our hopefully not. You know, we'll see when this airs. But anyways, so this is her downfall and what you got in trouble for.

She bought a mansion in Connecticut in 1983. You're from Canada, huh? She bought it for 11 million dollars and she wanted to renovate. And at the time, her renovations seem crazy. But now I'm like, this bitch was on fire. She wanted speakers in the bushes so she can listen to music and play tennis. Yeah, seems not out of line at all.

Who doesn't want to, like, hit a couple of balls around with Eye of the Tiger playing? Come on. Yeah. And she wanted a marble dance floor on top of the pool.

Again, it seems that's full.

It's just crazy how much house renovation standards have changed from the 80s till now because I'm like, this doesn't seem crazy. Yeah, but she wanted to save money.

And just like our 44th president, she decided not to pay any of her contractors and charged everything to the business, which is illegal.

Yeah. So if Rudy was on her side and not his, maybe she would be in charge. Yeah, like they're they're the same. So she didn't pay anyone. So they got an anonymous tip to a New York Post reporter. He got a call and said, Leona is a crook and do you want to win a Pulitzer Prize? Whoa. And that's all he got. So that's like spicy. I love you. Yeah.

So he agreed to this reporter, agreed to meet someone in Manhattan, and he got these files, started calling people and started figuring shit out. And then the U.S. attorney, Giuliani started to investigate from the New York Post article to The New York Post, posted this article on all of her scheming and how she's not paying people and that she's a crook.

Giuliani starts investigating and he says usually it's really, really hard to get witnesses to talk. He said people were volunteering everywhere because they hated her so much. So they just sat back and people like dozens of people are just calling and calling, being like, she didn't pay me here. She did this. She did that. She's this like that.

She wasn't able to successfully Stockholm syndrome them all with the promises of millions of dollars like in this episode. No, no. Let's just scrape no know anybody.

So the hatred was so huge for her and she abused so many people that April 14th, nineteen eighty eight, they announced an indictment of Leona Helmsley and thirty five counts of tax evasion, false records that showed personal as business expenses.

I do this too, but that's because I know I am really scared that one day level of money. But I definitely just put everything in my bag. I just yeah. Know at the end my accounts always like this isn't the business. You do it. I'm like I just, I'm confused. But what is. OK then I am on her side here. It says she only didn't pay four million dollars in taxes, but she is in total paid six hundred million dollars in taxes.

So it's like a small percentage of what she was. She's pissed.

She's like, oh, everyone thinks I don't pay taxes. I've paid six hundred million in taxes.

Another reason she's above Trump is that she'll show her tax returns. Yes, yeah.

But so for millions, she says that she brought a blank check to the government. I don't know how you do this, but here's four million here. We'll pay it. We don't care. And they didn't. They wanted her to go to jail.

So I guess who her lawyer is. Alan. Alan Dershowitz.

Yeah, Alan Dershowitz is in here and he's like, it's a misdemeanor. Chill, relax. What are you doing? Like, she but I'm going to get ahead of myself because it's too funny.

She didn't pay him. She never paid.

He never paid Dershowitz. She was pissed and didn't pay him. So I love that. But he was like, whatever like I don't understand why he's being why this is happening. It's not that big of a deal. And a housekeeper overheard Leona Helmsley saying we don't pay taxes.

Only little people pay taxes. Oh, yeah. That's a famous quote of hers. Yeah. Yeah. So the housekeeper heard her say that. And also her husband, Harry, was like old and sick and couldn't stand trial. So it was all it was all her.

Oh, I didn't even realize she was still alone. She was still alive at the Spanish. Yeah. Harry was old and sick and got off the ticket. So only she stood trial and then the media just came out and so.

So, yeah. So go on. So what did she get for a sentence. But so Trump called her a disgrace to humanity, which is takes one to know one.

Yeah. And then the mayor called her a wicked witch.

Well that's the thing. So. Oh, they also said she wasn't able to get a fair trial because the press was not in New York City when everybody was just such a hater, loving to hate her.

Yeah, she was just I was saying she when I grew up, Leona Helmsley was like a punch line. Like, you just I, I knew who she was and I was like eight or nine, you know what I mean? Like, I just knew what was up, that she was some kind of like, mean lady. Yeah. And yeah. You grew up on the East Coast. I was born and. I don't really remember this.

Oh, yeah, yeah, east, like not that far from New York also I'm from Connecticut. So she was I don't know where she bought this house, but it's probably near me where I grew up.

Her lawyer revealed her age in court and she was pissed and she said, I have a temper, I have a temper, but I won't say it's terrible. So I love that. August 30th day before my birthday. Eighty nine, she was found guilty of three counts of tax evasion and sentenced to four years in prison.

But she got Dershowitz got the state to drop their charges, just not federal charges. And so she did.

And that's why she refused to pay him. And Dershowitz is talking about how he's poor and he still uses tea bags three or four times. But also, like just being her lawyer probably got him so much business, you know what I mean? Yeah, I was like a very sensational trial. I remember. Yeah. I just hate when rich people are like, oh, but I still use my tea bag and it's like, yeah, but you still hire a maid, you know what I mean?

It's like you have these symbolic poor behaviors, but you don't actually live like a poor person. You're trying to relate to us and it's just not working. I'm sorry. And you're not a bad person if you use a teabag once, like, what do you shut up for?

West Side, three bedroom is filled with old tea bags.

And she said she does community service, but I don't know.

Who knows? She didn't want to go to jail because she's like, Harry needs me. He can't live without me, but no one fucking cared. So she served eighteen months in jail and two months house arrest, eight months in jail at like a white collar probably. Yeah, like a Martha Stewart.

They said that she tried to turn the prison into the Helmsley mansion and she hired other inmates to make her bed and sort mail and do laundry outside from jail. She ordered a birthday cake for Harry from the Four Seasons while she wasn't.

So I got to love that. Ninety seven, Harry died and she started to sell off parts of the real estate empire. And she went up. She went out with, like younger men here and there. Yeah. But she never married again and found love again. But she loved her dog and dog's name was trouble. Trouble, trouble. She learned about it.

And then Cindy Adams is in this episode of Idee Investigates with Barbara Walters and Cindy Adams and her best friends. I'm Cindy Adams. Cindy Adams is like, oh, that's right. Yeah. So they were really good friends. And Cindy also stopped talking to Leona because she invited Mrs. Adams to stay in her Palm Beach house and then had federal marshals kick her mother and her out of the house. OK, why, just to do it. All right, I'm moving.

OK, so you know, and there are some good things. She wanted to push 9/11. She walks to a firehouse, gave him five million dollars. She gave five million dollars to her kids. She had a ton of money when she got out of jail. It wasn't like it ruined her because she still owned all of the like for millions. Not enough to, like, repossess that rice. So, yes, she just sold off a bunch of stuff and had to know she got charitable at 9/11.

Yeah, 9/11 brought the best out on her and. Well, that's what's crazy. 9/11 happens in this evil bitch gives five million dollars. And our president celebrated that he had the tallest building in New York now when 9/11 happened. So you know who's more evil? I mean, you're right about like maybe she is an evil bitch, but like how we view evil bitches towards evil bastard.

Yeah, it's not fair. Yeah. Like he is our president. He's done worse crap. Whatever. I can't even keep talking about it. 2007, she died of heart failure at 87 years old and she gave most of her five billion billion with a B dollars to a charitable trust. She gave her two grandkids five million each. Her other two grandkids got nothing, huh. Oh my gosh. Five million out of a billion, though, is like feels like nothing.

But I think that's nice. I think Bill Gates is doing something like that, too. Oh, you're only getting ten million and go live your life and like, hopefully you can make that work.

I always heard she left the money to her dog, so she left 12 million dollars to her dog trouble. OK, and the news that sort of got sensationalized. And that's the only way I knew of her when I said I don't really know her as a child was the woman that gave all her money to our dog. Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't all her money. Did she give more to the dog than both of her grandchildren combined?

Yes, yes. Yes.

But nobody wanted to take care of trouble because she was a bitch to trouble everyone. And it bit, oh, shit. It would shit, wouldn't it? Shit, I feel like I read somewhere that it would like shit inside it. She would just make people pick it up. Oh I'm sure.

And but it had a security guard because I had too many death threats after New York is the greatest city in the world. They're going to kill a dog. But I was do much money. Trouble died in 2011 at twelve years old and it's I wanted it. She wanted the dog to be buried with her.

They didn't allow it. And then Leona has a three million dollar trust to keep her mausoleum clean because she hates dust.

Wow. And so that's the story of Leona Helmsley.

I'm glad she didn't commit suicide. And I also guess. Yeah, well, speaking of that, I just want to really quickly touch on that part of the of the episode, that part of the episode, the public suicide, like on camera suicide is based on a politician from Pennsylvania named, ah, Bud Dwyer. I want to know this. Yes. And he in 1987, he was he was like a state senator in Pennsylvania, a state treasurer.

He was accused of like misappropriating funds and he was going to lose his job and his family was going to lose their pension. Like any rights, they had to like money that they would get upon his death. So he called a press conference the same way as the character in the show.

But in his press conference, he he gave letters out to each of his children and to his wife and kept saying, like, I'm sorry for what I'm about to do.

It was like anyone with a brain would have been like something fucked up is about to happen. And he just kept saying, I'm sorry. And if this is going to bother you or traumatize you, if you have a weak stomach, you should leave. Now, like he said, stuff like that to people like you should have just kept sitting and people just kept sitting.

And then it wasn't until he pulled a gun out of a manila envelope that people were like, oh, wait a minute.

Well, he literally in his speech said, thank you to my wife. I love you for making my life so happy. Goodbye to all of you. Please make sure the sacrifice of my life is not in vain. And still, no one rushed him or did anything until he pulled out the gun. And then he yeah, he shot himself and his family ended up getting a one point two million dollar payout, which they never would have gone if he had lived.

So I think he did it. That's why he did it.

That's so sad that he thought that one point two million dollars would be better for his family than him. Yeah, that's really sad. And he maintained his innocence the whole time, which is also crazy. Now, you don't do that. You don't know. But he was like, if I'm going to if they're going to lose everything, I don't know. But he maintained his innocence and said it wasn't like, oh, this is what I have to say.

How do we know about Leona giving money to a dog? But we don't know about I don't know about this guy publicly killing himself in front of press that sat there doing nothing as he handed goodbye notes to his family.

Maybe it was just because it was like Pennsylvania and like it wasn't a like a glamorous look that wasn't I love the eighties on video.

I've never seen it once.

And in the eighties, this isn't as related because it wasn't at a press conference. But in the eighties, a woman named Christine Trubek in Sarasota, Florida, where the Helmsley sandcastle is, she killed herself on air. But that was like a depression thing. And she was I think she was kind of I think we could say the senator was depressed, too. Yes. But she was trying to make a statement, I think. And I saw a movie about that with Rebecca Hall is really interesting.

Anyway, thank you for telling us all about Leona, the painting of me.

And thanks for telling us about suicide. She is a Leonel. Leona Helmsley is a iconic New York character. I think I got a Pomeranian, I would name it Leona in honor of her or trouble. I love that trouble just reminds you that Chevy Chase that other people. A classic, classic, classic.

Our first guest today is a renowned character actress, a star of stage and screen and Hollywood royalty. Honestly, if you look into her, you've seen her on Grey's Anatomy, on Scandal and on the best comedy of all time, Veep. We are so pumped to talk to Annette, call the bully of Luscious Grape herself, Kate Burton. So this Espoo episode bully is out of control.

You're amazing in it. Yeah, it's iconic. And we just want to know when you saw the script and read that you're going to publicly commit suicide and slap people and call them fruits. Like, how did you feel? Well, here's the thing.

I mean, as a New York actor, as you know, C.P.U, Law and Order, the mother ship and criminal intent.

I mean, honestly, that you I mean, I can honestly tell you and I'm I've been doing this for almost 40 years. And those shows those three shows are like annuities.

I mean, for New York actor to be in those shows, I was in the mothership five times and playing two different characters. And then I did Criminal Intent the second episode, and I had never done this before. So when they present, I mean, I was I handed the script. They they offered it to me and they said, we want you to do this for you. And I was like, the trifecta I've done.

So I will have done them all that. And that is a big thing for a New York actor. So and S.V. you I mean, as to you, it's unbelievable. I to be honest, I don't watch ASV as much as I do the mothership because it's a little too gritty for me. Sometimes all of the mothership, it's very gritty towards towards the end. But sometimes I'm like, oh God, I see you as more living victims.

So you see the special victims unit. Well, exactly. It's not about murder. It's about sexual assault. It's about all this. And so, you know, and these are things we watched right before we go to sleep at night. Right. I don't generally watch for you before I go to sleep at night. Having said that, yes. So Bully was I for some. I'm really nice lady. I, I have two kids. I'm a very happily married.

I play so many of these madwoman.

Oh you do. I play. Oh my God. Yeah. Well I mean the scray on Grey's Anatomy, Sally Langston on Scandal, Sally Langston particularly. They're crazy. I mean they're, they're I play crazy mega ladies. That's my thing. Crazy mega ladies who kill people.

But are they usually the ones that start out sort of sweet, like because at the beginning you're like, oh, this woman seems so nice.

Woman I know she's she's got a problem. But listen, the thing about Boully that was so incredible was just getting to commit suicide in front of people. That's always fun, you know, and that's the thing is that I think that what what law and order, what the casting directors and what Dick Wolf always did so incredibly is they mind their New York actors. They had this plethora. They have still this plethora of New York acting talent. And, you know, those early years of the mothership were like nobody at sea.

New York, like, so gritty and true and real. And and it was so I mean, he really did break the mold. That was so then continues on. And here's and here's this view and I think I see you staying power is that it's, you know, ripped from the headlines literally. And I think also Mariska Hargitay, I mean, I think she is so extraordinarily amazing as that as that woman and she, you know, to watch this great female protagonist guide us through these terrible stories.

So, yeah, you know, and I have a tendency to say yes to everything. So that's sometimes not a good thing. But I will tell you, like I did, do you do when you do anything to do with law and order, you always to know, even if it's the prettiest stuff in the world, it's still going to be a classic.

Another thing that was so great about that character, and I don't know if you had any say in our collaboration, was the wardrobe. The hair and makeup was so good.

Well, wardrobe on law and orders in general are all I mean, it's they have the you know, they have custom designers that have experience in theater, in film, because, you know, New York is a one. Everything happens in New York in terms of all the different media. Yeah. And so, you know, the costume I've always had costumes.

My only sadness is that I have to been able to keep any of them because they need to keep them there for other guest stars to come in and be glamorous. Yeah, I'm guess with that point in Bulle, where you're trying to push through the. Crowd that salt like the mob that's coming after you and you're wearing like dark glasses and like a sort of a hooded scarf and you're like out of my way, like it's like just it's kind of what can I say?

You know, this podcast, we sort of talk about the episode and the true situation or crime that it was based on. So episode what that your character, I think was loosely probably based on Leona Helmsley.

Oh, you know, I didn't even totally know. Yeah, I love that. You know, that you're telling me this.

Years later, she was this, you know, incredibly mean employee who happened to remember those advertisements.

Your dog, your character left everything to her dogs. It's like very similar. Please, you have such memories of this episode. Thank you for reminding me. Yes. Well, those advertisements that you used to see in New York Times, like the queen is in her palace. Yes, there should be Leona Helmsley. I mean, Leona Helmsley is a character out of a cartoon. I mean, you can make stuff up.

It also is nice to hear that you're probably amazing to work with, considering Shonda keeps using you and the law and order world keeps using you. And that's like pretty amazing.

Yeah. Thank you. Well, I do love working with all those folks. I mean, look, you know, the key is one of the hardest things about being an actor, and especially of my age group is that you we came from sort of one of the thrills for me, to be honest, is I really thought by my mid forties I'd be done. I mean, I really thought when I was first coming out of Yale, I was twenty four.

You know, I thought, OK, well, I kind of got 20 years and here we are and I'm 63. Yeah.

And the reality is. Thank you. And the reality is, is that I'm still working my great friends, Debra Monk and Christine Nelson, who are even a little bit older than me, they're constantly working. And so the notion of there are interesting roles for women who are older, how is amazing. And I moved to L.A. when I was forty nine. And I always say what my age is because I'm like, why not? And I have had the most interesting parts I came with.

I arrived with Ellis Grey, Sally Langston, Senator Barbara Hallowes on Veep, and I can't believe that John hit me.

That's like our fate.

I mean, I the favorite that's our favorite show. I mean, my show on television. Well, she's a genius and so is Armondo. You know, she's so and so is every single person on that.

It's perfectly cast every and every detail of every character. Tony, me funny. I mean, Tony Hill, Tony.

I mean, even in the read through for the pilot, Tony Hale, I remember just sitting at the table just like. Well, hold me back, I mean, and, you know, but the thing is, is that I'm so I feel so blessed that I've gotten to play all these different, really interesting parts.

So since your have been in all the law and order worlds, we were wondering if you needed the help of detectives, which which detectives would you go to? Original Criminal Intent or SVO?

Oh, I have to say, well, Mariska Hargitay is pretty hard to beat.

I would if I could combine them, I would go to Mariska Hargitay and Christopher Noth.

Yeah, I don't know if this is appropriate to ask or not, but we just if you have an Elizabeth Taylor tale or a little bit like Elizabeth Taylor's stepdaughter, you're asking me this, too.

But it's just that she was a dream. I love her so much. I mean, I love her personally. We always got along great. She was always incredibly dear and sweet and just really gramme incredible sense of humor. She was amazing. And I mean, you know, honestly, I mean, one of the sort of I actually told the story a few times, but she had these jewels that she really, really loved. And I mean, they were very fancy jewels.

And one of them, my favorite thing that she ever had, there were a couple of things. But one of them was this Pearl was a pearl, beautiful pearl sort of teardrop shape, a huge like this size teardrop, very large.

And it was actually an unbelievable had an unbelievable history because you can see this pearl in the whole binde portrait of Mary Bloody Mary, Mary Tudor, who is the daughter of Henry the eighth who became the first of his children to sit on the throne of England. You see it in the picture. It's in the portrait. So that's how old girl is. Anyway, so the pearl had gone missing, couldn't find the pearl, and everybody was running around the house looking for the pearl.

And she had why she'd like to wash her jewels and baby ship. So she'd washed the pearl and somehow the pearl like I don't even know. I mean, this is the madness sitting on the side of the sink, sitting in a dish. Who the hell knows? Somehow the dog got hold of the pearl and were running around the dog. And the dog is sitting in the middle of the room, like just chewing on something. Somehow somebody stopped and went, wait a minute, and looked down at this little fluffy dog.

So cute going like chewing and had the pearl.

Well, thank you so much for taking the time out of your schedule, because I know you seem very busy. Pandemic, you are so welcome.

That was thrilling. Oh, my God, I'm like buzz from talking to Caperton. She loves acting. She's good at it. She's been in everything you've ever watched like. I don't think anyone can say they've never seen this woman on their screen. I forgot Veep. I mean, I must have just zipped over that in her IMDB or something. I don't know how I missed that. But like, iconic what a career.

And that she's been in all the law and order universe. And she loves Mariska as much as we love. Yeah. Yeah. So it's nice to know that even if you're a stepmom's Elizabeth Taylor, you will be blinded by Mariska Hargitay is Charm Beauty where she wants to call machaca in the event of a problem? Yes, that's her decision. And that is nice one. Yeah.

So post-mortem. OK, let's do let's break it down. I mean, what do we learn from bulrushes scrape? Don't let your boss slap you take him to court. Right. Have a lawsuit tape stuff. Actually, we learn if you're getting abused at work, take that record and don't end up dead. Right. But record it. Get a good lawyer. Yeah, I have a friend who actually just had a very high profile lawsuit against like a crepeau like billionaire boss and she recorded stuff.

And that's, I think, how she eventually brought him down. You got to record so record before you quit and press charges.

Yeah.

Don't. I don't pour alcohol in your blood, don't, but chug, chug, even if you're trying to have fun, if you're trying to get your opera singer mom drunk, like put her in a home, I think there's got to eat an edible, you know, fight another addiction. There's got to be another way. So, yeah, I don't but I also don't trust your co-workers. They're going to rat you also. There's cameras everywhere.

I don't steal your grandfather's car. Yeah. You try to run over one of your coworkers.

I think those are all the lessons. I mean, yeah, I was going to say, if you want to commit suicide, do it with a crowd. But that's not. Don't say that. Don't do that. Don't say that. None of that, yeah, this is a good one. This is a great episode, a great interview. I mean, the crime is just Leona, do yourself a favor. Looking more into Leona Helmsley.

She's a true, like Kate said, like a comic book character. Like comic book villain. Yeah. Cartoon. I guess she's I guess we also learned don't make villains like that.

The president I don't know if we learn that just from episode, but I mean, I started with her just because she was mortal enemies with Donald Trump. Also, I'd like to say if there's a press conference and someone is reading a suicide notes and apologizing to their families, Soko, go for that.

Go for that. Drop the gun. Don't just laid it out as they're fully confessing what's about to. Yes. Yes. So I think you know that's. Yeah. If you see someone that's on the on the brink maybe help them out. Don't just watch for a story. Yeah. And as luscious grapey thing I don't know. No.

Go somewhere where people think that like they say that you're family. Yeah. Don't let you pay your taxes. Babies pay your taxes. Don't leave all your money to your dog. That's honestly the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.

Not all. She only left 12 million. All right, Lisa. More than her kids, 12 million of the dog has like a ten year life expectancy after your death.

Probably what that happens to the money. Who does the dog bequeath the money to? The dogs eating waggle, as I was saying. Yeah. Why Ruby every day. No. Yeah. Pay or none of that. Rachael Ray. Dog food about.

Doesn't Rachael Ray have a dog food. Yeah, which is weird. Someone has a joke about this. That's why I looked at you so weird because the joke is like you're a chef and you're coming out with dog food with say about you.

I think it was Mateo.

Yeah. No one cares if he thinks that you follow Mateo Lane on Instagram. He sings opera and he actually doesn't really drink. I don't think he. But shucks, though we got to talk to him.

You got to come on the pod.

OK, so we are here, as always, inspired by Mariska Hargitay, but she also does a lot of charity work. She has her Joyful Heart Foundation. And we would like to use our platform, however small it may be, to spread awareness on certain things. So this segment is going to be at the end of every episode it's called What Would Sister Peg do? Shout out to the nun and savior of many runaway girls, Sister Peg, an amazing recurring character, RHP And so at the end of every episode, we're going to call out a resource or an organization where you can go to learn more about or contribute to a specific issue that we touched upon in this episode.

So for today's episode, if you would like more information on workplace bullying, please go to Workplace Bullying Dog, where you can get a lot of resources on how to handle that.

And if you'd like to watch along with us next week's episode, we're going to be covering Damaged, one of my favorites of all time, Season four, Episode 11. All of the episodes are on Hulu. That's how I watch. And if you're are more of a Peacock TV type person, it's available there as well. Thank you so much for listening. Tell a friend, give us a fun review. You know, follow us on Instagram or we're going to post some fun games and gifts and ASV.

You are. We'll see you guys next week.

That's messed up, isn't exactly right, production, if you have compliments, you'd like to give us our episodes. You like us to cover, shoot us an email at that's messed up bad at Gmail dot com. Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at Messed Up Pod and follow us personally at Caira Klank and at Glitter Cheese. As always, please see our show notes for sauces and more information. Thank you so much to our producer and fellow ArcView super fan, Hannah Kyle Krayem.

Thank you to our heroes Steven Rae Morris and Connolly Snelson, our engineers to Hendrika Persky, musical extraordinaire for our theme song to our artistic queen, Carly Jean Andrews. For all of our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers, Georgia Howard star, Karen Kilgariff, Danielle Cramer and everybody at Exactly Right Media. Listen, subscribe leave us a review on Apple podcast Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts done on.