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Midlife for me, feels like more freedom than I really anticipated. I feel like I've had this really big vision for my life, and that the past 42 and a half years have been not planting a handful of seeds, but planting enormous bags of seed. I feel like midlife is starting to see all of the fruits of that labor.

Welcome to My So-Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Rosh Ms. Ajani. When I think about someone in my life, a person who planted the seeds for their future. It's today's guest, Supreme Court Justice, Ketanji Brown Jackson. Justice Jackson is so impressive. After graduating from Harvard law, she clerked at all three levels of the federal judiciary. She worked in private law practice, was the vice chair and commissioner on the US Sentencing Commission, and she served as a federal public defender. From the time she was a little girl, she hoped one day that she'd be appointed to the Supreme Court. And guess what? It happened. In her midlife, she made her dream come true. She's the first Black woman and the first public defender to sit on the high court. Justice Jackson is also my friend. She recently wrote a memoir, Lovely One, which brought me to tears more than once. In it, she's just so honest about the obstacles she faced. And so in today's interview, I wanted to talk to her about the love she's invited in her life to make it possible and how she centers kindness in literally everything she does.

A kindness that is so key to helping her balance her two daughters, her career, her marriage, and her health. Justice Jackson. Welcome to My So-Called Midlife.

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm delighted. How are you? I'm so good. How are you? I'm good. I miss you.

I miss you, too. And now the term started, right?

It's starting Monday. Yeah.

Well, thank you so much for doing this.

I'm delighted to do this.

So I don't know about you. I got out of bed this morning and I'm like, My whole body hurts. I'm getting old. Yes. And I want to know one moment last week where you really felt your age, too.

Oh, my goodness. I have felt my age a lot lately with all the travel related to the book. You bend down and you drop a pin and you can't really get there. As easily as you used to. And in the mornings, as you say, I used to be a morning person, just literally jump up out of bed, like no need for an alarm. And now I'm struggling.

I want to start talking about The Lovely One. Yes. So the book begins with all of these incredible stories about your grandparents and your parents. And as a daughter of immigrants, my parents came as refugees. It really resonated with me, the values, right? How you were raised and the closeness of everyone. What's the one thing that your parents really taught you?

Well, I have to say, I think it would be that I have a voice and that I should use it. My father went back to law school when I was little. I was three, four years old, living on the campus of the University of Miami Law School with my dad across the table from me, studying in our kitchen. My parents never really spoke to me in baby talk. They always talked to me in full sentences. I recall my dad asking me little questions about various things that he was learning and wanting to know my opinion. It gave me a sense from very young that I was a part of this family, that I had an opinion that I could express. I think it really relates to the time in which I was born relative to American history and my parents as African-Americans. They had grown up in a period of segregation where their life prospects were limited by law. I was born within five, six years of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act and the end of segregation. I think that my parents really saw it as a window opening the opportunities that they didn't get to have.

And so they wanted to position me to take advantage of everything. And so they loved me, and they poured into me, and they trained me. And I think it was the power of my own voice and the ability to speak out.

Yeah, I love that. And there's something about that scene of you sitting at the table, your feet barely touch the ground, your father's studying for law. And What's so powerful about that point, your mom at that point is the breadwinner. She's supporting your dad's dreams. At that point, they're in the middle of their life. They're in their midlife, right? Yes. Their commitment to one another's hopes, dreams, successes, it reminded me so much of you and Patrick. What were the things that you learned watching them in their relationship that you incorporate in your relationship now?

Yes. Well, my parents were such great partners and have been throughout throughout their 50 plus years of marriage. Patrick's parents have been married for a similar length of time. I think we just got really good role models around the sacrifices and the give and take and the support that is necessary to sustain a relationship like a marriage.

Yeah. And it's not always easy.

Exactly.

You have to make compromise. I want to come to... So you married your first love, right? I did. You met Patrick. Wow, Yes. You date for seven years, and now you're married for 28. Goals. What's your secret?

Oh, my goodness. I think one thing is that we were really good friends early on, that We really got to know each other very well. And that helped, I think, as we started to hit those rough spots. And I think being friends with him. So on our wedding rings, we have inscribed, Today, I will marry my friend.

That's so beautiful. So Patrick is a surgeon. So he's got a big job. I mean, you both have these highly demanding, incredibly stressful jobs. And I'm going to ask you a question about how you don't get angry. And I bring that up because there's a scene in your book You're in labor with Talia, right? Yes. Patrick gets paged and looks at you and says, I'll be right back. And for a minute, you're like, Is this really happening right now?

So So true. I've not let him live that down for 20 something years.

How can you?

I think at the beginning, it was really hard, especially when the girls were little and they needed so much. He had this demanding career that required him to be away for so long. I remember when I brought that infant baby home from the hospital, Patrick was still in residency, and it was brutal. I mean, it was really brutal. There were times when I felt resentful and angry. But then I took a step back and understood that he was doing this in part for us, for our family. He needed to get to a point in his career where he could have more flexibility, and that was going to require him putting in the hours now. Similarly, there were periods in my career where I had to really buckle down, and he was the one who supported a lot of our family activity. When I was clerking for the Supreme Court, for example, he would bring me lunch and dinner at the court. He would drive me in because I was actually pregnant at the end of my It's just a good relationship. There's definitely been a give and take, but with a mutual understanding and respect for our careers and our roles.

Yeah. I love that your book really details that. I remember because I watched a movie about R. B. G. And their relationship reminded me so much of yours. I remember turning to my husband like, Why can't you be more like him? Because there's this perception, right? That only one person is sacrificing to get that big job. It's so clear, as you describe in the book, that you're both actually negotiating, changing the pace of your career. You both are, right? In order to show up at home and show up for your career. How did you invite that support? Because sometimes when someone is Loves you like that, believes in you like that, it's hard.

Yeah. I mean, this is not to say that building a life with someone who has similar dreams and aspirations and a lot going on professionally is an easy thing. It is hard at times to be the one who's out in front and who is being doated on in in that way.

I also think it's... For some people, it's hard to accept that love. I feel like it comes a lot from your parents, too, because they loved you fiercely like that as well. Yes.

I absolutely believe that from a very, very young age, my parents were very intentional about encouraging me to do whatever I wanted to do. I think, therefore, I was more able and willing to accept that same support from my partner when he came along.

And attract that, too.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah. Kataji, how do you still stay friends? I think about this. Not all and I are best friends. He is my best friend. But with the kids, It's in the dog. Our careers is hard. I actually don't know the last time we had a date night. So how do you now continue to stay best friends?

I think you give each other grace. I think you realize that you're going through a period of time in which these other pursuits, whether it's family or work, are going to take up an enormous amount of time. It's like the friendships that I have with some of my long-time girlfriends, that we might go a couple of weeks without touching base, but we know we need that not to have the pressure of having to communicate consistently. Then we just pick up where we've left off when When one of us surfaces. So similarly, you're going to just need to think about the fact that there are other things that you both are committed to doing and that you want to do together and not put so much pressure on yourself to continue with the date nights, et cetera.

Yeah. It's almost like having the security and the ability to stay present. What are your tips?

I don't know that I have that many tips, but what you just said reminds me of when I get home and I'm exhausted, and when he gets home and he's exhausted, and we're just sitting on the couch and not feeling the pressure to have to entertain each other, that's when we feel like we're really close. You're close enough to me that I don't have to go through the motions of talking to you just to make sure that you still think that I like you or whatever.

It's such a It's the thing, right? It's why I feel like I have five friends because these are the friends I can go on vacation with and not talk, right? Exactly. It's like we're just in each other's presence and that's it. It's like we're so close that we have almost like the security. It's a really important thing, I think, for young people to know about the success of marriage is about just being able to just exist with one another. Yes, absolutely. How, though, do you also create boundaries? You said you're a people pleaser. And so how have you and the family created these boundaries?

Well, we're still working on it. It's a work in progress. This is my third year on the court, so we are trying to figure out the new shape of our lives in this way. I think what I've tended to do is just only agree to do things that I know are going to expose me when I am willing to be exposed. In other words, I get asked to do a lot of things, and I couldn't possibly do them all. I now am very selective because if it's an event that's going to be during a court week, for example, I know I'm going to have so much energy and focus that I have to devote to my day job that I'm not going to be able to be available for the people that are talking to me during this event. So I'll probably say no. I pick and choose the things to try to preserve my energy because when I'm at the thing, I know I have to be available.

Yeah. And you want to be. And I want to be. Absolutely. That's really smart. That's a really good tip because I think that it makes you almost feel better about saying no.

That's exactly right.

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I was so moved reading about your beautiful daughter, Talia. I want to read from your book. You said, Now, upon hearing from her official diagnosis with autism spectrum disorder, you wrote, We could end our denial now. We could stop finally resisting the shape of things, stop desperately imagining some other dream of the future, and embrace the potential of what was. I found your words so powerful. You're talking about your daughter, but I couldn't help thinking about the power of this mindset for so many of the challenges we face in life.

Yes.

Can you tell me about how you came to this wisdom and what it felt like for you putting it into action?

Well, it didn't come easily, for sure. One of the things I talk about in the book is all the struggles. My daughter was not diagnosed as autistic until seventh grade. Right before kindergarten, she had her first seizure that I talk about in the book, very dramatic for us, traumatic in a lot of ways. And between kindergarten and seventh grade, there were years of trying to figure out how to support her, what was going on. There were misdiagnoses. There were times where we had her tested and people said, No, she doesn't have neurological differences. There were many, many, many hard nights and days to try to assess how to parent this very unusual kid. The moment that you read, what you were referencing was the exhale that came after finally getting confirmation of what we thought could be going on and the permission to recognize that this is who she is, and now we have a way forward in how to support her, how to her, how to help her grow into her best self. All the hard times, the prior times, kept us thinking, Well, if we could just find the magic bullet, the secret sauce, then she could go on and be like we are.

I think the thing that happens to a parent, very naturally, is that you have this baby, this beautiful baby, and You start envisioning all the wonderful things that they are going to be and do. Many of them, at times, are patterned after you.

Yes. And how you were raised.

And how you were raised and who you are. Then if it's not turning out like that, you start feeling like you're doing something wrong. I think we missed that there's really nothing that we can do, that she has to be who she is. It's not up to us to shape or frame or change her in any way.

Yeah. You say that in the book, you said you were harder on your daughter than you should have been, harder on yourself than you should have been. Yes. What do you mean by that? What do you wish you did differently?

Well, one of the things that my parents did that I think was so successful for me was that they set high expectations and they encouraged me to achieve them. My mother used to say, I complain, I don't want to do this. I can't do this. She would say, I'm sorry, Ketanji, has this been done before?

I know. I love that.

Has a person done this? If a person has done this thing, then you can do it, too. That was her mindset and their mindset. I was such a pleaser that I would work and work and work and finally achieve whatever it was. That was my model for parenting. What I tried to do when my daughter would say, I can't do this. She would cry and be upset. I would say, No, no, sweetie, you got it. You can do it.

Has someone else done it? Exactly.

I didn't really appreciate that because of who she is uniquely, there were things that were going to be so challenging for her that that same model of parenting was not going to work. I regret in a way that I didn't see earlier that she needed a different way.

Yeah. But you did learn that you can't parent both your child the same way.

That's true. Every child is different. Our daughters ended up going to different schools throughout most of their lives because they were different environments, and we have different kids. You have to let your children reveal themselves to be who they are.

Yeah. It's so hard not to imprint. I always say, maybe God didn't give me daughters because it would have been so hard for her, right? In my expectations. I got two boys, I'm like, Oh, he could be whatever. You know what I mean? One of the things that you said in your book also, I think it was so powerful. You said, If I really had understood what she was going through, I would have quit. But by the end, your daughter is thriving. Like, everything works out. But just imagine if you quit. We would not have you on the Supreme Court right now. That's It is true.

I mean, it is true. But I guess I wanted to really be transparent about the challenges. I mean, part of my writing, all of these things, is that I hope that other parents and people who are going through similar struggles will understand that it's not just them, that successful people, people who've gotten to do things professionally that they want to do, have also been through some things. And that maybe that'll be motivation to just keep going because you can combine a successful career with a family life and even one that has challenges.

We make it so hard for women to be moms and have dreams, to feel like you're a devoted mother and a really great judge. Were there moments where you had some doubt that you weren't going to be able to do both things?

Oh, absolutely. In the book, I talk about how many different jobs I've held from the moment of ending my clerkships and having my daughter, the first daughter, to getting on the Supreme Court. I had a dozen different jobs because I was looking for the work environment that would enable me to be fulfilled, but also there for my family. Early on, for example, I actually shifted to non-litigation position, to doing some mediation work, which I really didn't like that much because it was not what I was trained to do. I remember thinking, Okay, well, that's it. This is going to be what I do for the rest of my life. Because it was not clear what the path was to get back into the kinds of legal work that I was interested in. But things work out. When you work hard and you believe and you have faith, things work out.

I think a lot of women still have ambitions in midlife, but they're not sure how to get there because they're overwhelmed by life. What advice do you have for them?

I think you have to hold on to that ambition. Don't abandon it. But you do have to focus on where you are right now. It's like a two-prong strategy. Know that you can get there, that it is worth continuing to think about and planning for and trying to do that long term goal. But to the extent possible, be present with the stage that you are in and try to find enjoyment where you are. I used to have a placard on my wall that said, bloom where you are planted. And that reminded me that even though I knew I wanted to do this big thing, I'm planted here right now, and so I'm going to give it my all where I am.

That's really powerful. There's a scene in your book that I really resonated with. You're coming home from You're about to do the second shift, right? Yes. And you pull up into the Safeway parking lot and you just take a nap for 20 minutes. So I do this, not in the Safeway parking lot, but I lock myself in my room. Do you still do that now? Now you're in a lifetime appointment. You're holding the entire country on your shoulders. Girls are grown, but they still need you. Patrick, you know what I mean? You still have your parents. We both have aging parents. How do you still find time for yourself?

You have to make it. When I'm getting overwhelmed, I try to take a few minutes and work on some crafts project that I started a long time ago and haven't finished yet. I'll do a row of crochet. I like the early mornings. I'm actually a morning person, and so I'll set my clock a little bit early, actually, and allow me to have the quiet of the morning. I hired a boxing trainer, which I highly recommend.

You told me about this. Tell me more.

Well, no. I mean, you have to stay physically fit. I feel like so much of one's ability to deal with the pressures, psychologically and emotionally, also is connected to your physical stamina.

Are you boxing every day?

No, no. Once a week. He He comes to the court.

Oh, I love it. He comes to the court, yes. Is there a boxing ring in the court?

No, it's not a ring. It's our gym. We reserved the gym for an hour.

Oh, my God. That's incredible. Is it hard to be in a lifetime appointment?

It is and it isn't. I mean, it's both liberating and confining at the same time in a way because- Tell me how those two things fit. It's liberating because you can decide what you think is right, do what you think is right, and not worry about your job or fortunes or whatever. I think that's the point of having lifetime appointments. It's confining because, especially this job, there's really no next step for you as a justice. I'm used to having a job and moving on after three or four years. And so knowing that this is it.

No, you're not allowed to leave.

Knowing that this is it. It feels like the walls can close in pretty quickly in that way. But it's important to continue to do the work and to know that you're making progress, even in a position like this.

It's like midlife, liberating and confining.

Yes, exactly.

Good metaphor for midlife. Hey, everyone. If you're ready to shake up conversations about weight and body image, you need to check out The Body Collective by Lemonada Media and Weight Watchers. Hosted by Katie Sterino, Hunter McGrady, Ashley Longshore, and Tracy Moore, these amazing women are here to flip the script on shame. They're unlearning everything we've been told and turning it into real power, all the while having some fun along the way. They cover everything from weight loss medications to dating well plus-sized, and they're bringing in friends and expert guests to create a space where tough questions get asked and real conversations happen. It's all about advocating for yourself, listening to your body, and embracing the skin you're in. You don't want to miss this. The Body Collective is out now. Subscribe today wherever you get your podcast. I want to tell you about Green Chef, the number one meal kit for clean eating. Fall is finally here, and I'm so excited to get into the kitchen and enjoy all the cozy feel-good flavors of the season. If you love cooking with fresh seasonal produce like squash, cranberries, and Brussels Sprouts, Green Chef is perfect for you.

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Oh, my goodness.

You are. You are so kind. We met on a board. I'll never forget. I was so nervous. And you saved me a seat. It was like, and you made me feel like you had been waiting for me, right? And it did. It was, I'll never forget it. And I feel like you are like that in your life. I know you are like that in your life. And it's hard when you're juggling all these things to remember to lead with kindness and to show up for others. How do you do that?

Yeah. Well, I think that kindness is a function of humility. And in the book, I talk about when I was very young, learning some lessons in humility that have stuck with me, that I really do know and believe that there but for the grace of God, go I, that I have the things that I have, and I'm in the position that I'm in, Yes, because of my hard work, but also because of great good fortune and favor and blessings. And so with that mindset, I feel the need to be kind to the people that I interact with. I think it's really important, especially when you're talking about people with whom you work, people who you regularly interact with. Kindness is crucial. I also tell the story in the book of a speech that was given my college graduation that was so powerful to me that I remember it, even to this day. The basic story that was told in the speech was about a man who'd become a very prominent demolition expert, and he was flying first class everywhere. As it turned out, he never learned to read. He was sitting on the plane and asking his seatmate to read the menu to tell him what was on it.

He ended up explaining that years before, he had gone to a community college and said, I'd like to learn how to read. This is when he was maybe in his 30s. The woman at the front desk laughed and said, You must be kidding. He was so humiliated that he turned and left and never went back and never tried to actually get any formal training in reading. The person who told the speech said, the title of the speech was no Insignificant Words. That if that woman had just said, Fantastic, it would have changed this man's life forever. And so he was explaining that as college students, we had the responsibility now to understand that our words were significant, that they meant things to other people and to be kind to the people that we interacted with. And I've never forgotten that.

I'm never going to forget this. That's such an important thing, I think, to teach ourselves and our children. So I want to talk about God. I think that's a lot of what brought you and I together. And I think connected, it's a big theme in your life. It's a big theme in my life. And it's a lot about, I think, how we probably both find peace Eis. I have gotten into this practice with the family where we try to pray together every night. I start my mornings. In Hinduism, you have your version of gospel music. It's called Bhajans. And But the parents used to listen to it in the morning or in the car. So I've lately started that practice, too, which has been so soothing. What are some practices you employ?

Well, I listen to gospel. A fair amount, actually. I have a playlist that I get on the treadmill to. Then it runs in my head throughout the day, little phrases and refrains. At times, we have done a practice that a friend of mine does, which is really focus on what you're thankful for, not just at Thanksgiving time, but at other times, and articulating that because I think that really helps to center the higher being that is in our lives.

Oh, I love that. That's beautiful. So you wrote, There were a few people who really knew about your dream to be Supreme Court justice. Why did you keep it a secret?

Oh, my goodness. It's the thing you can't really walk around saying you want to do. I mean, it's really I like being struck by lightning, so you certainly... I think, too, that when you have a big dream, if you articulate it, there's always the fear of failure. If people know that this is something you're shooting for and then you don't make it, you're very exposed in a way that I think I was afraid of. If I didn't tell anybody and then I didn't do it, then fine. Now, I will say, I did say in my high school yearbook that I wanted to be a federal judge. I think I got that idea because I had been introduced to Constance Baker-Motley.

Can you tell everybody who she is?

Constance Baker-Motley was the first federal female African-American judge. She was a civil rights lawyer before she became a judge and also was in New York City politics for a bit. But where she was most well known is she represented a number of civil rights figures during the Thurgood Marshall era and helped to craft the strategy for Brown versus the Board and was just brilliant. She also was the first African-American woman to argue before the Supreme Court. She argued something like 10 cases and one nine of them. She was just incredible. She happens to be my birthday twin. But it's interesting because she was born 49 years to the day before me. The difference in our career prospects, ultimately, just because of that time difference, is striking. I have no doubt that she could have been on the Supreme Court, that she would have been an excellent justice. But she was born in a time where that wasn't possible for women, not to mention Black women. I just feel so grateful and so fortunate to follow in her footsteps in this way.

Yeah. You're The book took me in a lot of emotional ways. I feel like I'm going to cry now. It was so powerful. I was trying to figure out what's creating this emotion inside of me? I think it was this feeling of hope, but it was also this feeling that you were able to get here. And yes, you faced struggle. Yes, you faced challenges. But the world also collided for you. That the message is also for women. It doesn't have to be this hard all the time. And then when it works out, it feels different. You were saying that when you got the call, it was almost like you heard the ocean. It was like you heard love, you heard God, right? It was joy, Joy, because your journey was joyful.

Yes. No, I mean, you said it better than I could. My grandmother used to say when I was very, very, very young, that I was a blessed child. And I've carried that both in my head and in my heart throughout my life because I feel that. I feel grateful for the opportunities that I have, and that gratitude helps me to get through the hard She used to also say that to whom much is given, much is required. And so the hard times were the requirement for the joy that I feel about getting to serve the American people in this way, getting to be the mom of two incredible kids, and being in this life.

I want to close up here. You did write You had two dreams.

Yes.

It was to be the first Black female Supreme Court justice on Broadway.

That's true.

So when are we going to Broadway?

I'm available if someone If someone has a play, then they would like to be.

If someone is listening right now, Judge Jackson is available.

No, I love acting. I did a lot of it early on. I tried to get to the theater as much as I can. So, yes, I'm willing to entertain all scripts.

Okay. So you're still keeping this dream, right? It's still alive.

Yes, absolutely. I love it.

Because it's true. In midlife, you still need the thing. Especially when you've already gotten there, right?

Exactly.

All right. So that's our mission community is to get justice in Broadway. Thank you. Thank you. This was so wonderful. Thank you. It was so great to talk to you. Thank you for doing Well, thank you for being on the pod, and thank you for this book.

Oh, well, I'm just so delighted that you liked it, that you are recommending it. Liked it. It was a labor of love, and I'm glad that that shows.

Okay, midlifers, the first thing you must do after listening to this interview is go read Justice Jackson's book. It gave me all the feels, so much hope, so much light. In this interview, it gave me some really great takeaways on how to really live my midlife. Number one, lead with kindness, always. Number two, being kind doesn't mean you have to give up your boundaries. Setting time for yourself is maybe the best thing you can do to truly be present and genuinely show up for others. And third, if you got a dream, even if it's as big as Broadway, don't ever give up on it. Bloom where you are planted, and the fruits of your labor will eventually pay off. Justice Ketanji Brown-jackson is a Supreme Court justice and the author of Lovely One. Her book is out now, so make sure you grab a copy wherever you buy your books. All right, that's it for our show. See you all next week. Bye. There's more of My So-Called Midlife with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like midlife advice that didn't make it into the show. Subscribe now in Apple podcast. I'm your host, Rachma Sajani.

Our producer is Claire Jones. This series is sound designed by Ivan Koryev. Our theme was composed by Ivan Koryev and performed by Ryan Juhl, Ivan Koryev, and Karen Walthtuck. Our Senior Supervising Producer is Kristin Lepore. Our VP of New Content is Rachel Neil. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Wittels-Wax, and Jessica Kordova-Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Kordova. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe. Com/midlife. Follow my so-called Midlife wherever you get your podcast, or listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks for listening. See you next week. Bye.

Why Hello there. It's your old pal, Sarah Silverman, and I'm back with a brand new season of the Sarah Silverman podcast. On my podcast, I am talking about everything, politics. Yeah, we get into it. Favorite sandwich shop in LA? I know a few spots, and I'm going to tell you about them. I'm also going to be talking to you. I will be reacting and responding to listener voicemails in real time. Let me tell you, things can get weird, and I love every second of it. Weird is my comfort zone. The newest season of the Sarah Silverman Our podcast is out now wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Lupita Nyong'o. My new podcast, Mind Your Own, is a storytelling show that navigates what it means to belong all from the African perspective. We're going beyond the headlines to dive into nuanced, intimate stories from Africans around the world. I'm so excited to bring this show to you. Listen to Mind Your Own on Amazon Music.