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[00:00:01]

This is a news laundry podcast and you're listening to and I'll help them and grace up, not Lagon or News laundry up, not half the cabinet ch'orti. Welcome to another episode of Hafter.

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We are recording today from a relatively rainy daily eight thirty in the morning as opposed to a usual afternoon recordings. And today is Thursday, the 30th of July.

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Before I get into the headlines, I would just like to introduce the panel. And after that, Manisha can get into the headlines. Maharaj is on leave.

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He's gone back home to Jammu and Kashmir, the union territory of Jammu and Kashmir.

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Joining us in office are Romancer and Shabandar. Hello.

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Thank you for making it so early.

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And joining us from Patna, Bihar, is Anand. Hi, Anand. Hello.

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I am in Mumbai. Oh, how what are you doing in Mumbai? Hard to get from Bombay by train. Oh, OK. All good.

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Yeah. And joining us from the US is Suraj Yingli. Hi Suraj.

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I have been in them and hi everybody. Hi. I'll just give an introduction to you. I have your book lying here on your desk, Cost Matters. But before I read a blurb of that book, Suraj is an award winning scholar, activist and author in the field of caste, race, ethnicity, studies and interregional legal migration in the Global South. Currently, he's involved in developing a critical theory of Dalit and Black Studies. He's the author of the book Caste Matters and the co-editor of the award winning The Radical in America.

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.

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He's currently a senior fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School and an inaugural postdoctoral fellow at the Initiative for Institutional, Anti-Racism and Accountability at Harvard University. He has been nominated to India's highest literary award at the Academy Award and is the recipient of Dr. Ambedkar Social Justice Award in Canada in 2019 and the will hit the Mualla Scholar Award in 2013. So welcome Suraj.

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Thank you so much. So before Manisha gives us the headlines, just a quick idea of this book. I actually just got it a couple of days back, so I haven't read it yet. But you just want to tell me and our audience specifically what it is that this book kind of takes on or explains or analyzes.

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This book tries to make an argument for the necessity to have a dialogue on caste in India so that if we are able to talk about it, then we can discuss about the next steps of annihilating it. And that's why the intervention comes to a first person experience and perspective with an academic FairWear. Plus, of course, to make a case that the issue of caste has to be handled along with Dalit, the privileged caste folks, so we can have a collective struggle because our own caste wars have to be fought in our own private circles, beginning with our family, extended family and of course, the larger caste network.

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So that is the aim of the book. But it also enhances some of the underappreciated experiences, the sensorial appreciation of the Dalit life, the Dalit humour and the love, the experiences of reporting the wild farm of atrocities in everyday oppressions. So I try to present a composite picture for a 21st century as to how to deal with caste, if at all. It has to be dealt in a radical fashion to uproot it.

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And could you just tell us a bit about yourself, other than the kind of resumé intro that I gave you, where did you grow up?

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You know, where are you from, your schooling, your growing up, your childhood years? Where where where did you kind of navigate your way before you made it to the Harvard Kennedy School of Public Policy?

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I was I was born and brought up in London, a city in Morocco, to monastery. And that's what I did, my schooling. And then I'm a lawyer. I studied law. And then I went to UK on a government scholarship that is given to the students. I studied master of laws and human rights, mostly focusing on international public law. And then I worked for the UN in Geneva. Then, of course, came back to England, worked in.

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And chose to give up on the global north and decided to go somewhere in Africa. And that's why I chose South Africa. I went to do my party in anthropology and history from the university of which that's where Nelson Mandela, the likes of robots of Barkway, studied the revolutionaries fighting against apartheid. And then after that, I went to the US. So I've been here at Harvard. This is my sixth year now and various capacities. The latest being, of course, the fellow and postdoc simultaneously at the Kennedy School and the Department of African and African-American Studies, where I hold a research associate position.

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Right.

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Thanks. So before we get to the discussions of all that made the news and didn't and should have and shouldn't have money, so what are the headlines? What gave us sleepless nights or entertainment?

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So India has a new education policy, was just announced last evening and it's making headlines today and a lot of changes. One of the changes is, of course, the union Ministry of Human Resources will now be known as the Education Ministry to put the focus back on education we can discuss this is a bit sad for the source, this video that went viral with the 16 shows in his own house being under house arrest. The government, meanwhile, has said that he's not detained and he has dismissed his wife's plea.

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The video quite clearly shows that it's almost an illegal detention.

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I mean, it's almost as sort of an illegal detention. Ideally, Professor Hani Babu has been arrested in the case of a Maoist ideology. His wife called it a joke and a farce. This is a series of arrests that have taken place of professors, activists in this case. And I, meanwhile, has a post about Redzepi. They're saying that she's getting the best treatment in Bombay High Court as a.. Non-empty hospital to submit report on Guerreros Health.

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It's deteriorating and his family members have been wanting him to get out, especially in view of covid. But that's not going anywhere right now.

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Five Rafale jets landed safely at Amala Air Force Station. I think that's the only time when a plane landing safely made so much news.

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Plane crashes make news, but this was just a wall to wall. Ridiculous, embarrassing coverage we saw yesterday of these jets landing and a lot of reporters stationed in Abelardo. You couldn't record or do anything because there was a security cover. There's going to be the Ram Boomi Pugin on August 4th by none other than the prime minister, which is also my birthday.

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So if any of you want to put on Aureole on your laptop and send a subscription to News Londres on that day and is actually feel free to keep me as free, I appreciate it as both of you.

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And I hope the administration has put restrictions on television news. I'd really like to see how this plays out. You can't you can't have heated debates. You can have it among a crowd. You can't attack anyone in this debate.

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And you can call people from the other I mean, controversial, controversial people with sedition. It seemed to me that they don't want to call people who opposed the building of the Ramdin, the other party.

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Basically, if they don't want fights and controversial people that are Narbonne times, I will not be broadcasting that. No, no.

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Those who he has to on a personal undertaking that he will not cause any more. But that is to go that this is also true for bands and studios. This is this is not restricted to what you're doing there.

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It's also extends to Studio Myawaddy is move the Supreme Court against BSP Congress in Rajasthan. The flood situation remains grim. And Simon Beha, in fact, we have a really detailed report on how some media covered it in. You guys should check it out because it gives a lot of details that the media didn't. The Sansing Rajput case has taken another twist his father has filed in appeal against the CHAKRABORTY international news channels. Now, from going after outsiders and current in current law and bioethanol are now going after the Delhi government has launched a job portal.

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There's a sedition case against a political activist in Manipur. This is continuing the trend. The state has had even journalists being slapped with an eye and being jailed for almost a year. So that kind of continues. And money put the Mumbai in the Mumbai. Seriously, 57 percent respondents in slums were exposed to the coronavirus and 16 percent in residential societies. Twitter has removed coronavirus misinformation video posted by Trump and also disabled his son's Twitter account for like 12 hours or something.

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So something he posted a fake news of of I think on hydrogel, whatever he wins will be.

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So those are the headlines. I can tell us a bit about what's happening in Patna, although, no, he's in Bombay, but I'm sure he was there a few days ago.

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But first, let me just discuss this cost annihilation.

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And, you know, speaking about it with Suraj Sooraj, I have to say.

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One is that, you know, in fact, for the longest time I've been wanting to do this long podcast on on this what they call chmod pop in Punjab, you know that the first album was a cop with the Jama'a on the album was very successful. I don't know whether you've seen the videos on YouTube. And then Baotou came back, three came and that is this reclaiming that word and, you know, like the classic yo yo honeysett type of pop.

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These guys, of course, a lot of references to the and all.

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And I mean, even on that started off, I mean, although it became a powerhouse and, you know, it was in Punjab and in Maharashtra, you see a lot of academic scholars and activists who talk.

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Of course, I guess that's because of Mahathir legacy. And an icon always then gives rise to more people who kind of look at him as a hero. But can you explain or is it just because I see it on YouTube, is Punjab and Maharashtra got to places where you have had this back?

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Is it just my imagination or are these two states outliers in pushing back against dominant costs, kind of dominating the narrative in pop culture and general society?

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Or is it as good or bad as anywhere else?

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I mean, in addition to these two states, there are a few others that could fit the bill. One, of course, is Karnataka. We have Tamil Nadu yuppy more precisely, and also the Bihar and West Bengal, although Bihar politics are very strong. But it was mostly Congress led political space that we had captured. More precisely, what we are doing almost was created as a way as a contract to compete with the other states that are mentioned also have had a very solid kind of a.

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. Cost base, more just political pop culture.

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In the pop culture terms. I think three states, I would add monistrol Punjab and Tamil Nadu, simply because these states have had a rich legacy of fighting back, dating several centuries, and also the embracing of a Dalit identity. But not too many comments. But to a sense of a new for example, you are not part of Brahmin dharma if you are, for example, or Buddhist or you are native, or you had Knobloch or you were Tamilian who were original inhabitants of Indian identity.

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And I think that's how it kind of start working. And of course, we know very little nudnik. Also, the movement was heavily inspirational to the evil because the adults in Punjab are close to 30 percent age. And so that's the kind of huge number that kind of works side by side. And that's why I think also in this case really is very peculiar, because Punjab, of course, due to the feudal relations that we saw, the catastrophe of a green revolution, especially the decades in the recent years.

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And what that has done is that has in a way worked almost festive exodus, you know, the exodus of Bengal, especially the people who are Dalitz, who left Punjab and, you know, because they came back with a certain capital to sort of building houses.

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And it's still sort of emphasizing that by doing left overseas and made money. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what I mean. So I just use that word intentionally, especially to convey to the the the the rural violence. But also there was a lot of consciousness that was existing in that region because of the sheer number, but also the movements that came out from that region were very much head on, you know, and it didn't look as higher.

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That was the difference, because we just owned the land. And that's the only cemetery that kind of changed the status. And that's why in Punjab, there's a good chance of and because they tried to imitate the Brahmin form of oppression upon the left. And I think that's why we see Punjab is a very unique kind of case in that way that has really almost subverted the narrative when we did the same thing. I mean. In Canada, I was here in Vancouver and the guy would ask for one of the activists have actually counted how many times jutsu used in specific songs and so revealing in the way that Jack is used, not just as a joke.

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Right. But also to make other people feel no one can be proud and still make everyone feel welcome. But the kind of pride that was coming out of that was very toxic and masculine. And so that's obviously we see a very curious kind of, you know, history of when you have and also you want to know that the little bit of the earliest migrants who went outside. So when the Punjabis left. So who is also the little part of that Punjabi demographic?

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Right.

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So when you say that this conversation around cost of your book, Cost Matters, is talking about why that's an important conversation, it has to be had and not just from the perspectives that dominate discourse. You think that conversation isn't happening or is happening, but it's noise and not in the way that is constructive or productive.

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You mean maybe, maybe contradiction in the public sphere like Mandela?

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Yeah, in the sense that when I'm consuming information through newspapers, through political speeches, through when I see Mayawati talking of that famous victory of hers, I think it was in the early 2000s when she won an absolute majority.

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She swept the state and and, you know, prime time debates for a long time dominated cost equation, especially when elections around the corner. One sees conversations around this, but I guess they don't get anywhere.

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What do you think is wrong with the discourse as far as news is concerned, politically and even in other ways? You know, through drama Theotokos and books such as yours, I mean, a news and political leaders. And the only way this conversation can happen, I'm sure it can happen in other ways. What do you think is wrong with this conversation, the way it's happening right now?

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I mean, I don't necessarily see it as anything wrong happening. It's just that, you know, the the the microphone is not amplified enough. You know, it needs to know. The volume needs to increase. There will always speaking, you know, to give that same example that we were just discussing right now, why would, for example, Maharashtra and then its Punjab, it would be so, you know, uptight and loud in the responses also because, you know, they have their own forms of expressions, the musical forms.

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It was not just like responding to that, only it was always existing. Right. And that is the kind of base upon which the politics was developed and up, for example, that becomes almost like a political in and affordability discourse, especially for the non-violent perspective to understand. And Milota almost becomes to be part of the person that one needs to identify. I think that's partly correct, but also to understand that, you know, cultural, for example, you know, had really, you know, given a counter culture to the existing romantical culture.

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And that's why we see Garibay as opposed to really Lakshmi by becomes an icon. And of course, you know, he celebrates maybe at someone, you know, I think it's the year nineteen, probably 18 or something on that as the full of maybe, you know, he is oppressed the end he has as a color photo. So then there is a lot of spacially counter-culture ways that that's happening, but also in a culture of what we call the quotidien and the involvement has been central to the functioning of in the cultural sphere.

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Had it not been for the Dalit genius, the creativity developed a genre, it would not have had even gone anywhere. But it just had the acknowledgement of that has remained very, very curiously silent because, for example, any of your colleagues who have, you know, or in any it's based in India claims his or her or the other person feels attacked, all of a sudden they feel this is you know, they say, why you why would you even mention that?

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I don't look at as in my my you know, in my fantasy, colonel, my commanding officer. To me, an email because I had asked for reparations for and he said, why do you want to bring this cost issue? What, you want to divide India? So so one can have what that means is my assumption of my ancestors and embracing of my past becomes a problematic understanding of why this doesn't get recognized. Because even though I have stories to tell, I have music to sing, I have committees to share, I have theater that I've been building an entire performance on.

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I am not accepted for my development. I'm accepted for my meaning. I can provide the story, but I should not be done. It's almost like taking away my soul out of me. And I mean, we can see competitors here in America in the early years when the black people are very popular. They wanted black people, but they wanted black people and black people and almost enology. All those know mimics the Western theme. And I think we should still take a few decades to catch up to what is happening in America right now.

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I wanted to actually ask you if you're following this case. It hasn't really made much news in India. It hasn't been covered as it should be. But I was curious about how it's being reported there. And if the media days away, like in NY, The Washington Post, when they're covering the case, I mean, is there an awareness of what cost is or what cost discrimination is and how is the Indian diaspora reacting to it? I mean, what are the kind of conversations happening around the school?

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If you if you know, I think in India also there's been no TV coverage, but at least the print media have been or also known print media such as yours have taken a keen interest in doing interviews and extensive reportage as regards to NYP or watchful. They know about it, but also it's a very American centric way of looking at the world. And so that kind of gets lost in translation, if you will. But they had to operate it to the woman who wrote about this issue in a very, very interesting and providing the first person perspective as to when your question, do they know about it?

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Most certainly they do. You know, they've been very much aware of that. But the interlocutor's of South Asia most likely belong to the APA.

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And so that's where the liberal values that the American Empire project and affection to understand know America. The way they look at it. America is the way she looks at the world. You know, they look to regions and it's a very arbitrary formation of a certain region and should be able to feel that market. But it's kind of difficult. But the for example, being the Boston based, the the the Public Radio International and the political center sponsored the research on cost in America.

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About two years ago, Philip Martin, an African American journalist, actually came to India, came to my hometown, London, to spend some time. And he did like he, along with his colleagues, did an extensive report on that. And Isabel Wilkerson, the first African-American woman to win a Pulitzer Prize journalist, she wrote a huge 12000 word New York Times magazine piece on American caste system. I really encourage you all to read that simply because it gives a perspective she calls a race in the skin.

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And caste is a bone of American social hierarchy. And of course, she has come to India as kind of present how caste system was American. And it's, you know, since its antebellum era and how the likes of Charles Sumner, one of the early abolitionists and actually identified the malady of American social system as being a fan of caste. And there was also a general Republican get out of Boston where I'm right now, that was called cast very interestingly.

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And of course, you know, we have the concept like Boston Brahmin, which is basically to say an absolute top where you can challenge them for. The Boston Bombing Club is a club where almost you have to be born into that legacy family or you to have access. So it's almost replicating that instance. And then that could also mean because of the colonial experience, because the British Empire also had a. As you know, whatever was published in the British Empire was circulated within the Empire, at least to a certain extent, and that could have been one of the ways.

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So I think there are there are conversations that are now coming up. And I think with people like me and many more delegates who are here, it will get a certain space as as it should write on.

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And if I could just come to you before we move on to other things that made the news when it comes to cost politics and even the popular culture, you know, Bhojpuri, cinema, Bhojpuri, pop music has always been very popular. I mean, it's like Punjabi music has gone across the world, maybe from behind. Most of the music hasn't gone that far, but it's still big. It's it's not a small marginal thing. It's pretty mainstream.

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What has the Dalit experience of the Dalit artistic expression been politically in Bihar, in your understanding, and also through the pop culture avenues that that we see that are prospering in Bihar?

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No, I don't see. And I think also for the expression in popular culture here, but it's in the same literary forms and the writing is there and the literature is there, as I was mentioning, that with the lip movement since the days of Jegue and must've been a section of the still in Bihar, that demography is generally seen as a model with this the divided castes within Dalitz into these broad categories.

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So and then a strong section of the mean she and Mr. Bush won, but in popular culture was polyculture obesity presentation.

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Is there a some of the most popular singers and even actors in cinema from the Ovshey?

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But the the little voice in popular culture particularly is not there. But one has to see that Bihar is not just Bhojpuri, it's just one of them in dialects. There is also McGahey, Matley, Birgitta and other dialect.

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So in all the music videos and the films we see, which we just categorize Bhojpuri are those actually now that I like. So that is actually just Bhojpuri or have we just put Bhojpuri onto everything, all the songs that we see?

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I see it those goody goody is a dialect which comes from the Bhojpuri district in Bihar and IT speakers respond to some parts of eastern U.B. also, but it is limited to few districts of Bihar and feudalistic. So you'll be and still syntactical was two decades ago. Part of it had some in a number of speakers there also. But there are a large parts of ironmonger here, speakers, Matley speakers. But you guys speakers. Bihar is not just Bhojpuri right now.

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Before we just move on to the new education policy, which adamancy, you can tell us a little bit about, I have a question for you. So this is a woman Titelman High. So, no, I just want you to. How do you view the political leadership? You know, the political leadership in India. I mean, I have this country from Dalit leadership. I mean political leadership. So after college these armi my clearly I see that this impact of Mayawati is waning.

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So. So do you think that any any prominent Dalit political leader emerging in India? Romona I think it's a part of the evolution of any democracy, especially the particular democracy that it has always found itself to be adjusted into making a new identity based politics and every identity based polity. India is basically a petri dish of identity politics. And I don't see this in the terms of condescends, I mean to say in a positive sense as to how beautiful such diversity is, but.

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But because of the cost based attitudes in this gets ugly in the Delhi context, also, it's the same rage because after my would be, of course, the BSP will be the very best party. It has very strong roots in the recent years. Unfortunately, we don't see much of cannibalization happening as much as aggressively is happening with guns and bombs. So that that actually did the heavy lifting on a ground level. And it was basically an organization that was promoting social harmony.

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So with with the character of morality, if you will, there are also other alternatives almost operating in every district in popular it. Of course, that is still a consciousness that are very well known, grassroots, articulate, smart, uptight leaders operating on district level, the local level and deploy a leadership and military leadership basically means as to not only provide a political voice, but also have their grievances addressed or have a say in police cases or the daily dealings with the government officials, because our Indian democracy, the right to democracy.

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And I think that's how the leadership works. And that's why the organic farms of looking at this is to literally pay attention to the decentralization of the political future. And, of course, have few centers, not one. But if you, for example, the Tamil Nadu party led by them and they are to implement optimally, you know, they have they are they have their own world and they pay attention to what's happening in the north. But also they have a very strong presence to usher in a radical voice into the into the otherwise dominant conspiracy.

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So what what we what we see in this sense is that only voices that are coming in the media highlights few individuals, that it doesn't mean that it's a wholesome thing because media manufactures sneakers, we know in India and they're known to manufacture and manufacture Modi as the leader. So similarly and that is also among the Indian community, that is the same situation. But in the wings, the wings are changing because there is a lot of distrust in the political system right now.

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And with the current dispensation, by the time they will go or not, who knows? But they would leave a very graphic, very disturbing form of society where it will probably take, you know, to Americans and to Gandhi to kind of fuse to bring back again the little bit of confidence that people had in electoral democracy, at least.

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Well, OK, that's that's another grim thought.

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I mean, one of the best as quickly as I can get a quick view, I don't know how bad it is to ask you this, but because you are dead and I you know how much of chandrasekar you get to see over there. But he was at least three, four months ago before covid.

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He was often in the headlines and before the Delhi riots. And I went and interviewed him and I met him. And honestly, I wasn't impressed. I, I didn't think he was that serious.

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But it was just like a one on interaction of what is your view of him?

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You think he is someone who could actually emerge?

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I think we should use a little sugar some time for him to get food. I mean, it was up to of course, I'm from one city when he did that and report on him for the queen. That's when it kind of people started to notice. Yeah, yeah. But the work was already going on. And so what has happened is I think there is a certain enormous pressure on this guy who has been slapped with draconian laws. And you need to be, especially when you don't have any political class who is standing by you.

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And, you know, there is no muscle of, you know, financial as well as on the national level. It's almost, you know, and you operate on constant tax rate. And I think that's why I'm sympathetic to the shape of simply because what he's trying to do is actually get the local ballots from across the nation local. What I mean is the people. Who are really on the ground to at least think about alternative politics that we can do and people who are frustrated or from reality and know the other political factions that exist limits to kind of think about you can most of us here very much take it upon the message of conjuror, because no country is the one who will change the scenario of politics.

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And I think the sheikh or anybody will have to have to embrace the idea that we really need to do the tenderizing, really need intellectuals, a working day and night being the out to to sort of promote a new cultural understanding of society because things have changed. And so my, my, my my faith is that people like the sheikh that are other leaders that they start categorizing and candidates in a very old fashioned camp sense that you in which you talk about the right system to talk about the greatness of them.

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You talk about the kind of fights they led. You talk about martyrdom. Mundy, who led the 1857 revolution in Bundy, and you kind of bring out the to basically writing system stories. And I think that will win. And then, frankly, if you will take some time right now, I'm sure inundated with too many requests to respond to situations. And that's why I'm that's why I'm slightly critical of media. You should you should give people more and especially talk not only about reactionary kind of responses.

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You know, you see almost every other media channel that show them in. And it's almost to ask him to comment on certain things.

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And he is young and he is very he's only 10, 15 years later than I am.

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And it's true that I mean, whatever I've seen of him, like in Sheinberg, where he was, I mean, it was like Michael Jackson, it arrived on the scene. People went crazy. He has a huge for you.

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And I think he seems a little stunned by his own popularity. You know, he seems to me it seemed like he couldn't believe he's so popular. So, yeah, maybe it's true that he needs to take time and maybe move away from daily politics, because I do think that coming here and doing the NTC is to do me what worked against him also back then was that he was there before the riots everywhere. You know, I mean, once the riots happened, none of these guys showed up.

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They just kind of evacuated the scene. And, you know, the local residents then sort of were just alone and dealing with whatever they had to deal with. So maybe, like you said, just focus on local politics and getting people around. You got rising at a very low levels before just jumping onto the. I think one thing is one forgets because, you know, as a reporter when I was young, I have interacted with them. I have a theory.

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I've spoken to Paswan, especially in my early reporting dissin those guys had really talked through it, confirmed views about anything that I told them, whereas Chandrashekhar, I could tell, was not shot on all the things he just so. Yeah, I guess it just needs a little time. And he is young and he hasn't had a mentor like Ghanshyam. And all of a sudden and Milota was a brilliant woman. She still is. I mean when you read Benji that I do the work as a teacher while doing law in the evening.

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Yeah, I guess.

[00:38:27]

I mean, you know, I remember that day and also when I was appointed, you pointed out that there is always an infantilizing of the political leadership. You know, people always want to mock people who want to give them the credit for the intelligence, the organizing capacity. Paswan, for example, and of course, you know, a huge towering leader in the movement. Right. And people would say, I get the job they were told to do, but they would not keep America, you know, so that's that kind of margin.

[00:39:00]

And you're very right. Whenever I interact with these people, they are sharp as the reader. If they speak, they know what it is. And I think and then and then I'm thinking like, why do they think otherwise about them? And then I go like, oh, yeah, somebody a reporter or somebody media or something has happened that really presented a distorted view. And that's what I'm saying. For example, many of these people are intellectuals.

[00:39:30]

You know, if you talk to them about intellectual issues, you will enjoy the kind of prose they throw at you. You will enjoy the kind of ideas they will take you to. But what happens is we are just looking for the little guy that too many good she is going to say. But, you know, she can also say other things that is given too much. We grew up an accent to me.

[00:39:55]

I look up and was able to live that or Ahriman Campos's. So what I'm saying is, let's hold the same bar to other dominant political sphere, but that doesn't happen. So what I want to do is, for example, to try to tell me the one time you went to a prime leader or a company leader or one of the money, I said I'm quite lucky, but I'm not about to make it look bad. But I'm going to give you a policy.

[00:40:26]

But I'm going to give you some division about a mechanic that it's almost like a homogeneous whole, which it is not, you know. So what I want what I really expect is what I wish is, is to have the same kind of conversation, the asking about which I need about this issue will be someone like Congress. I'm in the party that they will be able to talk to us tomorrow. When this person is really want to give each of us going, I will tell them what I will get a little money that will go wrong.

[00:41:06]

And, you know, this kind of extremely, you know, surviving survey kind of frame. That place you really want is to look out of that traumatic experience and try to speak something that really makes a legible sense. And second, try to critique a system. And that's where, you know, we all kind of default. And I think that's my hope is to kind of change that narrative and perception of the experience.

[00:41:38]

I hope you do. And good luck to you on that. Before we move on to the issue on the education policy and its revamp, you have any comments on what we've been discussing so far before we move on to the next subject?

[00:41:50]

No, no, no comments. Just a piece of information that Rumblefish Buschmann, before entering politics, he was deputy superintendent of police.

[00:42:01]

Oh.

[00:42:01]

So he clearly state civil services and he was assigned DSB position.

[00:42:11]

So it's not just that he had no background or educational background and he learned in his expertise in politics, in public life, he had he had a career before and he sacrificed it to drink publicly.

[00:42:36]

You know, it was in nineteen sixty nine actually, you know, in the same year he got into a dispute, also got into with someone, his family or someone many people don't know. Thank you for pointing that out. So thanks.

[00:42:52]

Now before Romancer tell us about the education policy. I had a couple of announcements by the way. Thank you many of you. After my AP last week, we have seen a bit of a spot in subscriptions, so I appreciate that. But even going forward, the next three or four 1/2 days will be free. They will not be behind the paywall because we are still integrating our new website and UI UX with the podcast place. So our subscribers have a completely fiction, free and seamless experience.

[00:43:21]

But as long as it's free, I do hope subscriptions don't drop off because remember, you're not just paying for the half to even the half time put together by Snigdha. They are Lippy Sulla editors, producers, they work. But you're paying for a reporting on don't reporters who are reporting. So that is what you're really paying for. So don't look at it as just when it pasada after Tamela. While I'm sure I'll have to keep you entertained on the weekends, one and a half hour organizations that wonderful people like Sooraj who do come but do continue your subscriptions even and halftimes are outside the paywall sorry, even in half a dozen behind the paywall.

[00:43:59]

What you can do for the duration that is free for the next three or four weeks is you can share that with five people, you know, so that if they like it, they may also want to contribute because, you know, we don't take advertising because we say when advertisers pay advertise ourselves, we only depend on new subscribers. So do share it with five people. You know, they have to, you know, nudge them, request them to subscribe.

[00:44:21]

That's something you can do for as long as it's free. And like I said, there are other projects that you can also contribute to.

[00:44:29]

We have a new and they'll say in our project, it's called India's Custodial Deaths. As many of you had followed the story of Bjerre, Sanjay Bannocks and Tamil Nadu, who were horribly beaten to death. So as but a recent report, India saw on an average five custodial deaths every day in twenty nineteen. Why is that such an endemic problem? What's being done to fix it? So we are going to take this up as a new annells in a project and those of you who did back.

[00:44:58]

The real India is unrealistic estate, Alisyn, a project and the Delhi riots. I hope you liked the kind of reporting that is being done with your contributions. The Delhi riots is still not over. So we've got five stories out right now.

[00:45:13]

We've got three stories out of a roundup yesterday. Ulcerate, huh? Including that three. But so we will. But we are going to have a lot more.

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It's not done before and before then. Also, we had one big story on got for you.

[00:45:29]

Right. So when it comes to, say, not three, but otherwise we had 44.

[00:45:32]

So we will be continuing to pursue this beyond just going to abandon it. So dubek our journalism and I do hope you will. And also there's a new education policy of one is that the Cabinet has renamed Human Research and Development Sex Education Ministry. Other in that rather the significant change is can you tell us maybe I can weigh in after this. I'm sure he would have read about this.

[00:45:53]

I think it is quite significant because the last policy education policy we had in 1986, so this one is coming after 30, 40 years. I know for a fact that they want it in 2014 itself. They had made it clear that they will not come up with the education policy. And in the past five, six years during the BJP government, this has also affected RSS was very keen on HRT ministre, so so ATTARDI ministry. So in fact it was said in the second inning of Modi that Davidic lost, you know, his ministership because he wasn't giving the answers.

[00:46:40]

I was really happy with it.

[00:46:43]

But after seeing this policy, I must say that RSS, you know, has not been able to do much, you know, in shaping it, accepting the fact that which is not just RSS. In fact, many educationist also say that, you know, you should be taught in your mother tongue for the job.

[00:47:05]

That that's that's a bit problematic because let's say I'm in a transferable job and I have a child who's, like six years old, who's studying in, let's say, Maharastra, and then I move to Gujjar to move to Punjab, then the child has to learn Punjabi interest-free.

[00:47:19]

And also what it says is that wherever possible, the medium of instruction until at least grade five, but preferably eight and beyond, will be home language, mother tongue, local language. So wherever possible is the operative word. I don't think this will impact private schools as much, but definitely I think it relaxes the burden of teachers in school to learn English and to you know, and I'm a little fence on this because I think one is that I I mean, we know that English is an aspirational language.

[00:47:49]

And we do want I mean, that's just the reality of how it is that, you know, you do need to learn English for certain jobs or to get ahead in life. What this will do is for private schools, it doesn't really matter because I think that will just go on the way it does.

[00:48:03]

And in other schools, I think that the younger you start with the language, the more chances are there for you to pick it up.

[00:48:12]

So what will happen is that especially if you're a first generation learner, like if your parents don't speak English, then your only avenue of learning it is in the school and from the school. It's just okay to not, you know, learn it in sixth and certainly after six, you'll have to sort of be OK with it. You're going to be at a huge loss. I mean, rich kids can afford tutors and can and you also have like I'm a second generation English learners, so my mother and father would speak English and I learn at home.

[00:48:38]

But if I don't have the avenue of if I don't have that at home and I don't even have a school teachers instructing me English and some of have fix, I'm supposed to be to become more it'll become very difficult.

[00:48:50]

Other than this, what are the other.

[00:48:52]

I think the changes this is quite flexible. I mean, let's say in the biz you can have political signs and you can have a sign subject to now. So, so, so earlier.

[00:49:06]

I mean, it was such a compartmentalization of signs of flexibility that flexibility is also important to foreign universities. This is something that the audience was really against, against. And a lot of a lot of people.

[00:49:19]

This was actually something that was proposed earlier by Kapil Sibal and the opposition because, you know, it was believed that the tuition fee would go up and it would just and all the talent would also be sucked into the foreign universities will again be a huge gap. But that's being allowed now. But we don't know the framework of exactly how that will play out.

[00:49:36]

They're done away with and also something which I was doing, I remember, from Jianyu.

[00:49:44]

So the dilution of is on boards is like board exams of knowledge is kind of what I want to emphasise.

[00:49:51]

Colleges are still asking for that results. So what is it like to see that we need?

[00:49:58]

To see how they're going to implement it, but they are going to ensure that anybody who is out of the school will have at least one skill, the skill emphasis wasn't wasn't was something and it wasn't an undue have any views if you've been able to read any details of the new policy.

[00:50:18]

You know, yesterday, a few bits of information. Now the renaming of the ministry as minister of education. So I would just like to remind that in the fifties, nineteen fifties, it was actually called Education Ministry and I think nineteen fifty seven it was called Education Ministry, and I believe that was the first education minister. And the ducation there, that is 11 is to commemorate the 10th anniversary of the first Education Ministry.

[00:51:00]

So it's this cosmetics of renaming. It just goes back to the 50s after that HRT was deathtoll I think weigand a school and give it a more technocratic name, maybe inspired by some. And it was a time of very heavy specialization and technocratic jargon in American in America or American bureaucracies anyway, so that if that bit about renaming second is eighty-six, then education policy and the Rajeevan, he was named.

[00:51:47]

So if all in books when you opened it had any and the objectives, if I remember there was a emphasis which no subsequent government or no government prior to it could contest, like critical thinking, scientific reasoning, this that. So that has all to be retained. But, you know, changing pedagogical environment, professional environment, employment means learning outcomes and the whole gignac logical revolution in terms of learning and education, something has to be adjusted to it.

[00:52:42]

One of the things they have done in higher education proposals is that they have done away with the proposal to do away with coach.

[00:52:53]

Erm Phil was seen as unnecessary in many universities.

[00:52:59]

Many universities didn't have some universities like most of the central universities.

[00:53:04]

Did you separate them for that matter, be a part of the anatomy. What is it for me after your post graduation? I went to Ginuwine earlier this year and you are to give a preliminary exam and then the interview, then you get registered for approval and then pastie to emphasise a stop gap, stop gap between them in PTSD.

[00:53:30]

And basically you do dissertation on the first you you pick up a topic of your choice. Say, I took Samuel Huntington, you know, policy, political development and political decay. So I wanted to see the how does it apply, you know, in the context of Dr Lagniappe compounder or how many of the enemy? I took one district and tried to study the political behaviour, you know, so that's.

[00:53:59]

I'm sorry, Catriona. I just want to get them Filatov.

[00:54:02]

So go ahead and finish. Yes, I know bridge also between Postgraduation and PhD and it aims to train you in research metrological.

[00:54:17]

However, there was a talk in academic circles that it was unnecessary and people can just go and have full total research and by enrolling in the program.

[00:54:32]

So yeah, that is one in higher education aims of saying I am not talking here about a school education. Second is that they are going for four year graduation program. So that is what they have proposed instead of the three.

[00:54:54]

So that is. Also, a longstanding demand from U.S. certain quarters.

[00:55:04]

But what I am concerned about, not only this, but all kind of education programs, is that there has to be a balance between the new fangled ideas of educating people and learning outcomes, creativity and critical thinking.

[00:55:28]

And this that is very good. But you cannot manufacture or regionality it. You can create an environment for it. Inculcation that has not to be at the cost of the critical parts of information to the quality of learning outcomes is OK, but there has to be a certain degree of quantity.

[00:56:02]

Also just thinking about some problems, thinking creatively and horizontally about that.

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But you need to have a history of the ideas or the history of things that have already been done. And that is what is the breadth of information that you need to consume. You need not to consume it by rote. So the system has to be done. But the material that people make up, that is all unnecessary, that has not to be done away with you devise ways in which it can be more productively and more permanently inculcated. But just throwing the baby with the bathwater is not the solution.

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But I don't think that the policy is very clearly, you know, talking about critical thinking. And this maybe this is one interpretation that Arnold has, but I don't think I think that's his prescription. Is it?

[00:57:04]

This is what one I guess needs, but also that you have you have it is there is talk about reducing the burden, the curriculum burden. Now, it is important to see what you are reducing and that has to be more clarity about it. There is a proposal of reducing.

[00:57:23]

But what I have seen in newspapers so that you have gained a scholarship across four continents, have been written for us, Africa, India, and clearly you are probably have the most degrees out of all of us.

[00:57:40]

I don't know whether you have seen any of the recommendations of the Indian Education Ministry, but even if you haven't, what would your prescriptions be, what is right and what is wrong and how we educate our kids? What is the reason that Indians are heading Google India envoy and we keep celebrating at engineers? But up now, Tony, the glitch that really excites us at the end, lending from France.

[00:58:03]

And that's the tragedy of, you know, if one joker performs in a circus or we think that's the only world that we are going to witness. I have skimmed through because I am very much concerned about the education system, because, as you said rightly, my educated in four continents, I look at India and I look at the poverty of educational distribution because the huge divide between the central board and the state level boards and then of course, there international boards as well.

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I got educated in state board, an English medium school, but when I went to England, my professor couldn't make a sense of me what I was talking about. So that was the level of, you know, kind of gap, the way we use rhetoric to even convey something. I know. And the face of it, when I skimmed through it, you know, some of the highlights are quite welcoming. You know, one of the things they would like to reform, the word they use is quite heavy pedagogy.

[00:59:11]

And they would really like to inculcate the twenty first century skills. And also they would like to make it more creative, more experiential and of course, education. We're discussing to have the mother tongue, you know, as a tool and until at least grade five. But they are also hoping to promote it to the to the state and beyond. But, you know, the Sanskrit that they are trying to, you know, have is quite interesting.

[00:59:43]

And unfortunately, the policy the minister who is heading this is a man who still lives in medieval era and a person living in medieval era cannot prescribe. A policy that is conducive to trade, essentially, so I'm sure some people in the industry or the people they might have hired to use this or other devices devised this new policy is actually as the face of it looks pretty radical. One of the things that I like is the universal access, which is something I would also recommend.

[01:00:28]

But in India, one we have to see is the for example, my children and children, many children or any other person, children, families, children, should have access to the same school, same education. Right. We should be the very necessity of a classroom structure was there to democratize knowledge. It was not to have adequate knowledge. And that's what the classroom are structured in a way where you can sit next to each other. And the school I went to, we had a rotation.

[01:01:05]

And when it was made that if you are sitting through the whole year, you will meet at least three or four new people who will share the bench with you. But unfortunately, that practice we created all this new slogans by the didn't have a single person who actually promoted this when he was the deputy majority minister. But the scope of this, I mean, is that why should we have disparities in the way we speak English and we speak in a very sort of accented English, in a certain cultural English, whereas a person with a reasonable language who comes and tries to attempt to speak when you're almost a colonial hangover that we almost passed out on the person who is attempting to do so.

[01:01:55]

You know, that is one of the things. And for me, the whole problem that we have in society could be addressed and very effectively so if we radically reform education, but that would take the privatizing. We cannot afford to privatize our essential services because that will then make you permanent customer of an exploitative system. Education should not be somewhere that I am going to out. You know, many of us have had the education and the cost of our lunch, which was just basically huge, state subsidized, and talking about all the engineers and all who climate on the reservation and all of that, they themselves were heavily subsidized when they went to and all the other institutes of regional institutes of engineering.

[01:02:44]

So in addition to this universal education, which which we need, I also think we need a strong emphasis on English language. The reason I say that is 20 percent is what we do with language or language of Vedic science. This is all outdated. You can you cannot create, at least in the future, algorithms based on Sanskrit models. Now, you can write the imaginative story as to how algorithms will develop and which is out of the piece of know a moment.

[01:03:24]

But at least what we need is this this multilingual approach with English, with an emphasis on English. But that was really what I mean. It was like, let's have the balance of both languages. And if you ask me, in many countries in Switzerland, the children I talk to, if I'm not mistaken, three languages. One is, of course, the French or German and then English. And there is another third language, either German or something like that.

[01:03:54]

So it will be the beauty of us is we can do that. Right. And we have speech that could actually promote such kind of linguistic diversity as we continue to do. So I think that's my kind of a short take on this. And it but I really believe in a very brief moment of looking at how it has been designed to make it more equitable, make it more sustainable. They want to create scholarship for students from other disadvantaged groups.

[01:04:24]

And what I like, they want to have National Science Foundation. This is fascinating. I don't know why we have to UDC, for example, especially social sciences. And I know and all of it. We had a social science research council in almost every zone which did the exact work. But the emphasis on research and basically making a four year bachelor degree is for you to then be prepared to go abroad or at least be part of a mainstream Americanized.

[01:04:57]

Education, which values food and education, as opposed to the British type three year education.

[01:05:02]

So, I mean, the two things I wanted to just kind of I mean, on this whole English thing, one of the risk of sounding like an AFP spokesperson, I think the only state that really was emphasizing that everyone should be taught English was the chief minister who was so that's it's important. It's aspirational. That's what actually makes social mobility happen. And A was political risk because, you know, I'm sure there'll be some lobby with satire and crazy about what's going to happen.

[01:05:33]

But when it comes to the dominance of English, at least in my professional life, I've seen it when and I saw it in a very dramatic and apparent way.

[01:05:43]

So to win, win, win, win the English dominance, when I was I joined in the study group as a reporter news track in ninety five, I think the beginning of 1995.

[01:05:56]

And Newstrike was like by far the most important news magazine in India where the English when they didn't matter, Newstrike could make governments go like, you know, VPI Singh's famous rabbit model and the story that started in 92 and then Öztürk started in ninety five.

[01:06:17]

And I remember it's a little embarrassing, but we all like that. I guess we all came from a culture like that that you get reporting getting. Is that realistic? Well, you know, because English, the news of news English really sick and then he's little given that I remember this discussion happening in the newsroom. Really. We'll start in the news bulletin. I mean, I don't think people just want to go and then stuff.

[01:06:42]

And within a year of my time there all the of course, now they've become the picture of cars and they've completely gone to the loony zone from being the underdogs.

[01:06:55]

The newsroom, the English speakers of the Julias Odd, that became the biggest thing that is. So I'm not sure whether that English knowing English is important, at least in my field, for success.

[01:07:09]

So is that true across other fields other than maybe the digital technologies required all over emphasizing the importance of knowing English?

[01:07:19]

No, I think psychologically it is very, very important to, you know, know English because I have seen many Hindi journalists who are bilingual. They are doing better. Exactly.

[01:07:31]

And that's something that a lot of journalists have pointed out, that even the Legion is doing well and in general speaks really good English. She's a whatever star, but she's a very good English speaker. The guys will be only in these speakers are not given the kind of heft in newsrooms apart from, say, maybe like a rich.

[01:07:50]

But how many divisions are there? I mean, this is one person and it's so much more to reach than anyone else. But most news anchors who do well or who rise to editorial positions are also good English speaking.

[01:08:01]

OK, Ananda Sooraj, you guys want to weigh in on that?

[01:08:04]

I mean, am I just extrapolating a very small experience in a small environment, in a small industry onto the world?

[01:08:13]

I mean, you know, I look through the perspective of my own life and had the advantage in English. I mean, and I would have been, you know, limited in my scope, you know, one but my opinion I problem. But also the opening essay will be so, you know, it has to also have a global attached to it.

[01:08:37]

So usually what has happened is would be reasonable. Your own mother tongue me that which is very important. I am totally in support of, you know, having that school work in the for example, as done at looking at this issue, it's already localized. My experience is very much localized and confined to a really certain biography, eligible liberal. At least I will have a certain step in to not only challenge the local dominance of my goal, but I can do so.

[01:09:10]

Obviously, the longer we'll be able to divide speaking the same rhetorical tone and all the movement. Well, simply because they don't value me for my talent, my merit, my intelligence, they're looking at my social.

[01:09:27]

Social mobility is still language dependent is what to say to what.

[01:09:31]

What I mean is I wouldn't get a global access to global knowledge. Knowledge is global and unfortunately I've been in the UN, although it is English, that is really, you know, now that is the fact. Or why then we should limit NYT news to only certain sections of India's population. Why not allow anybody open? And of course, I mean, what I'm saying is I don't want to see on the NYT read what the message is that the global con.

[01:09:57]

And should happen in the languages that it is coming first and so it doesn't get very much corrupted in translation and also interpretation and your view, you are like you often don't have to.

[01:10:10]

You learned English very late in life. You grew up in Bihar in Hindi medium school. Do you think it changes a professional prospects and social mobility?

[01:10:20]

No, my my feeling is you can be certain that it doesn't change much. So I am going back to something else that you said and I will come to a different point.

[01:10:32]

I don't know why people can't add to the Hindi speaking state or the Hindi heartland people or people who just know Hindi. We are not going to watch newsman's the data. It was a big deal.

[01:10:51]

You are talking about mid 90s and the Robin is a very seminal study and of Niantic from 1977 to 99 says that India's newspaper revolution was spearheaded by the regional press and playing a major part and interesting data is also that my early 90s and it is this media specific, Bihar, the number of newspaper readers in Bihar and that is undivided Bihar that included Jharkhand was more than even populous states like you will be in much deeper this.

[01:11:39]

So and two very authentic, well researched academic studies have established this. Now the demography of news, conception, newspaper consumption is a bit more complex than the language divide. It has to do with other factors. Also, I think some more she assistant. It is needed. No second. Is that what you're saying? That has been one out. So there is an interesting difference between the approach of somehow some OBC leaders or the socialist leaders like Rama Manoir, who he has looked at Englis and his cottagey like Caputi Takura and I looked at Englis.

[01:12:31]

I knew technology. They parted as a very into antithetical to the ideal indigenous development.

[01:12:39]

And Ambulance's, the majority party, had a very hostile attitude towards Englis till 2012. But in general. And Bouchon in the late writer or what you think or you can say. But he has he he has gone to another rhetorical extreme of having a McCawley power and worshipping English as a deity, because because his his point is that that the sharp suits of Dr Ambacher were not just sartorial statement, but a political statement or of a a kind of liberating force and most to the access to education, to ideas.

[01:13:36]

And similarly, Englis was seen as a tool so that the leadership, a section of the right leadership and a section of Ovshey leadership had very different takes on Englis tardies. There is still an ideal social distance that Englis has to like, and that is more to do with the Hindi speakers like people who take a lot of pride in their regional languages, like Steve Bengalese or or say, Malayalam speaking peoples. They don't create social distance once they acquire the tool of English proficiency in English language.

[01:14:24]

But same is not true for Hindi speak Hindi speaking people. Once they acquire the tool of proficiency in English, they think as they are a different breed know, and they will look for opportunities to strike a conversation in English.

[01:14:48]

And that I have analyzed this why this has happened. But that would be a very long discussion and maybe you should write a piece on that.

[01:14:57]

We'd love to get a piece on that level, Saddam, at the time I'm talking about, I don't know what the status of it is now, but the newspaper that was boasted about having the largest circulation was a Punjabi paper called Ajith, which was bigger than any other in the English or any other people up.

[01:15:16]

But I don't know what the status is now before we move on to Kashmir.

[01:15:21]

So you want to weigh in on any of the things we've said on this whole language divide and the importance of it.

[01:15:28]

Thank you for asking. I just wanted to have a quick comment. I think it talked about the English gordis and he also created almost equal into the Statue of Liberty being demonstrating with a pen in the hand. And I think that was a kind of a very significant and personally, when it was shown on TV was very motivating, especially seeing the young girls, you know, communicating in their English, attempting and in the broken English. But they were speaking.

[01:15:54]

And, you know, that really created a adoration and admiration to their efforts. And we are going to hear about them because of their rulers there way the white people or the local white people, meaning the native guests, able to use it for their and on without the will a back. And when I say Sakari, you know what I mean is like, you know, everybody the proliferation of private schools in some of the small taluka, that was surprising in some regions of Burma, the Christian missionary schools and other institutes, the private land owning cars, you know, everybody's having English medium schools know we can we can have a reasonable population and, you know, so much of an affection.

[01:16:42]

We should definitely. But, you know, nobody will take a chance of, you know you know, this has happened when a friend of mine or rather an acquaintance who was a known little once in a while stuck in his party and that I'm talking about. And 10, 12 years ago, I was really fiery activist and all the children came of the age of going to school. She was hustling to get these kids into another private school to write English hedges of pride.

[01:17:12]

And then, you know what I'm saying is he had he had he been a regional language speaker, he would not able to make it right.

[01:17:23]

I think that's true. That's true. So I just want to quickly give 10 to 12 minutes each to Kashmir and to the landing, which Manisha can tell us how it was covered.

[01:17:35]

But I have a few minutes. Thank you, readers. You've written a lot of mails at this time and the e-mails are going up. So I would request you to reduce the word count. Like, I will not give his name because he wants to be anonymous.

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But you have sent a one thousand seven word mail, so I definitely can't read that. So I will include as many as I can this time.

[01:17:57]

I use I use says you guys are doing a great job all round. I was wrong. A nuisance which I felt will lose relevance. But the news discourse has descended to a level that it is necessary for nuisance. Sympathy's with the team for having to suffer it. Thank you. Among other things I use has also written that he's writing to us because of the absence of a comprehensive discussion on but overall and the political case on its handling. It's appalling how the agencies in the country are treating and using taxpayer money to fabricate case against activists.

[01:18:25]

The discussion has been muted. This is the same investigative agency that let terrorists go who are now representatives of people.

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It breaks my heart across the country with people like Dr. Kafeel Kahn prosecuted, and it seems that we are on our way to becoming Putin's Russia. So I think we have something coming up.

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We want to have a series of interviews. It won't be going on a few reports also.

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So I use we will be doing some stuff, but I can't promise with a legacy.

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Media will. Now, you know who you are, a you those initials.

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You want to remain anonymous. You've written a very long mail. You have been rather offended by maharajahs comment. Before he went to on leave last Tufton, Monisha said, Can I come with you to catch me? And he said, No Indians allowed. So you have put the sequence of events that led to the accession and why, you know, the Kashmir conversation is very one sided. It's good versus evil, which is the innocent. Kashmiri was the evil army.

[01:19:24]

And it's a lot more complex than that is the point. You've made over one thousand seven words. You have linked several articles. So thank you for that. I will forward this format and he's back. He'll read it. And you have closed by saying Meraj needs to liven up. He's too depressing. So we shall communicate your offense at his comment and I'm sure he will address it when he returns.

[01:19:47]

Sonali says In the past couple of days, they've been conversation about acceptable reasons for taking leave. I have nothing to contribute on the main issue, which is mental health. That's at. But I love it when people indulge in virtual singing while behaving like seminars in the worst sense of the word.

[01:20:02]

Does that mean that is, at least on the Capitol Hill, ill gotten supervisors in an organization or just employees who get a few rupees more levers, a legal entitlement for an individual when selling one's time under an employment contract?

[01:20:15]

So when the person takes leave because they were disturbed by on things that or to go to a jazz concert on a Kamani her or child father, mother is ill. Benjy Biocompatible, your live balance.

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And he had to battle a moral policing on a vacation time wage slavery is truly a thing.

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That's a very good point actually and actually came up. I completely disagree.

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I think it's a done, but I think it's a great point because it's true that if they live in my if I have leave, if I have 20 days of leave and I take one leave for whatever the hell I want to, it's my right to take it.

[01:20:46]

So the problem I have with any organization coming down to right is that there is no debate that no one is saying you can't you are judging why you did. So this is the same problem I have. Like personally, I get the point I tried to make, but I don't agree with the argument you're making. It's like saying I see something truly sexist or racist or costis and someone says, how dare you? That's a horrible thing to say. I said, that's not right.

[01:21:14]

Of course it's fucking your right, but how sensible is it? So the conversation isn't over to the right, because if you say it's my right, then there is no debate on 80 percent of the things that we talk about, because most things, whether they are good, bad, stupid, ugly, are my right to do digging my nose is my right.

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But maybe I shouldn't shake hands after doing that, you know. So I think it is very productive to think it's the right to be. I'll give you two or three examples.

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One is if you've seen the documentary, The Last Dance where Michael Jordan was running a fever, one hundred degrees and one degrees, he had to play game five of that NBA finals and he fucking played it in one. Scottie Pippen had a shoulder injury and he didn't play. He wanted to prove a point. Michael Jordan is judged for that. No one would have said Jordan did not play. How do you not play? Of course it's his right to not play.

[01:22:04]

But he did like, for example, when I have shot with many people laser directions. Sometimes you wake up, it's you have permission only to shoot that day and the anchor is not well or whatever. But the anchor says, you know what, let me just do this. I would want to work with that anchor again. But I will say it's my right to get one day off. I don't want to work today. Of course it's all right, but you will not be treated the same.

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So I don't think I don't see how that's like I mean, it's not a compelling argument at all.

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It doesn't it doesn't negate the point I was making.

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I wasn't making the point that you can't give leave, but tomorrow if at election, let's say this behind election happening and five reporters there yet looks of election, of course, take a leave, but you will be judged. I will want people who know their commitment to their work. So we're back to lying leave.

[01:22:53]

Just saying there is mental to say that you are on the mental health issue. There's another e-mail admonishing me, and I agree with that email. I mean, I think that's made a very good point. But I don't agree with this just because it's a right. You will not be judged for it. I don't think that's because you are in opposition.

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There are certain rules you have you are working on a story and in the middle of it, you go only because it is your right. Yes.

[01:23:22]

Speaking from being so I just don't know what to say.

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Sonali, that email she's referring to was a was a subscriber who was not in the news industry. They were in another industry. But nevertheless, I think logic stands. Then there's this other e-mail.

[01:23:38]

This is from Swathi, Apologies for writing another nitpicker email for the second week in a row on the same subject in episode two.

[01:23:45]

It is a cabinet then compared to working professionals request for a mental health day off with a child's excuse to skip school, he seems convinced that such requests are motivated by mischief, a lack of discipline or weakness of resolve. This is disappointing.

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I don't see why it is so alarming if a teacher reaches out for clarification of our students religious practice, particularly if the students from the minority community before printing something you disapprove of with a broad brush of overall weakness, it might be worth considering the context in which this practice has emerged.

[01:24:15]

A failure to honor the cultural resources of minority students, potentially alienate these children, impede the academic achievement, well-being and prospects of school completion. Urban public schools in the US have historically been very hostile towards black Latin NEC's.

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I am not familiar with that word, but I guess it is about ethnicity and Asian children that a number of studies that describe how schools force compliance with white ways of being and doing.

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Researchers and practitioners have spent decades pushing for schools to become more culturally responsive. Does this more liberal approach place higher demands on teachers? Yes, and I am sympathetic to this. Might some teachers be overreacting? Possibly can. Precocious. Let's take advantage of this for sure. However, there is no evidence that suggests a systemic pattern of overcorrection and mischief. I haven't seen any signs of this in my firsthand exposure to schools in the US and I do my research and education and in us.

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So at this point, well made. I can't disagree with that. But it doesn't change my mind about weakness.

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Just to tell Foster to Israel, because he does study the students last year after we had a discussion on safety and openness and I was kind of critical of like having to walk on eggshells about every utterance and I think is in the context of the New York Times editor having to leave. And she was complaining that people don't like me and that so many of them, I was like, you don't have to like someone if you don't like what they're saying.

[01:25:46]

And one doesn't have to walk on eggshells everywhere. And the example I gave is I have a family member who is in in New York and her 10 year old son who had to school and said that I can't come on Friday because because you want to do some LaFonta privacy, because we have to.

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But that is in demand that sit in whatever the park, Hudson River there.

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Some people thought it was the most ridiculous religious practice he invented and the teacher didn't say anything, but she called up my family member and said that is this true?

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And of course, he said, no, it's not.

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Now, I was saying that in the schools that we are used to the teacher, what I said better them because they're not Kahaani. I gave us an example of weakness going to our teacher is even afraid to tell the student to keep quiet.

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So that's what this is a sponsor.

[01:26:37]

You have many experiences and, you know, across the world.

[01:26:42]

And what is your view on this whole? I mean, am I being too insensitive to do privileged lence?

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I mean, you know, I mean and then, you know, this is the conversation that we are having in this time. If you had this conversation, let's say five years ago, you know, two years ago, you know, especially pre Metoo Movement era, I guess it would not have so many bells. But now the politics has really changed in the way we interpret every other sign, every other concerns. And and due to that, what has happened is you say anything.

[01:27:25]

It's almost like the George Bush's statement post 9/11. If you are not with us, then you are against us, you know, so so there is more like a middle path that one can see because it applies to every other conversation we have in our society. And I, for one, out of my experience, of course, is not a huge supporter of binary politics. I'm not at all convinced of the merit of collective understanding and collective hearing process, because, you know, what happens is that the second stage of what you just spoke of at the moment, it is laughable term is canceled because if you don't listen and then all of a sudden you pass a comment.

[01:28:17]

And so, in fact, as we speak today in the Congress, when when a Republican member for the country to raise this issue of an editor to say they had a meeting of Jeff Bezos, Tim Cook and somebody else, I think. Yeah. So the four top notch people in the field were there. And so they were asking about how do you censor? Because this editor was not a center of left is what that Congress can raise this point.

[01:28:54]

Right. And so what happens is it's clearly and simply simply because politics is changing, right. Because now the marginalized subjects are actually articulating their voices. And so going back to the Latin X, Latin X is basically the identity of the Latin American community. And that is there to be gender is the aspect. And so that's why the Latin X becomes because this was brought out again by the the the Lisbon Rights Movement, as well as the gender justice movement.

[01:29:30]

Folks who then inserted what we have is at one point there was one Latinos, Latinas. But then again, that was right. It was gendered. No gender should be like it. But again, what I recently saw was, again, social media knowledge is highly I mean, I'm a I'm the old school guy who will be to buy another reference to that. I will take my time to. I know on Twitter I saw that in the new called Luminex, W.M. X, and if I'm not mistaken, the spelling.

[01:30:10]

And so the whole politics of that is to, you know, to be sensitive to the other gender fluid identities. But then at Trump's account on Twitter said that this is also against turn's so. So then, well, we then sort of make ourselves in a more digestive and more compassionate to other people's experiences. And, you know, we can we can we can look collectively. And part of that, I would like to take a minimum in confidence if I want to him to believe in certain things.

[01:30:46]

I can't just be going around and saying, you know what, that was a sour taste. And you know what I'm saying is that is good. But also calling out and putting down some statements saying, you know, I suffered a lot on my own and I know so many people and the land of the gentleman or woman, whoever, the person who wrote that one thousand seven hundred, almost almost a million people kind of send their grievances about four feet long.

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And I think, you know, in my excitement, I mean, because I'm also responsible person in my own eyes. All of us are I cannot just promote and a rabbi thinking of you with us or without us, you know, it could be. Yeah, but you're not with us right now. But hopefully let's work together so that we can be on the same page.

[01:31:40]

Clearly, you're not typical of of commentators or speakers, I think other analysts in today's day and age.

[01:31:47]

But thanks. I have another tool has made the point again.

[01:31:53]

He thought of what I said last week was not quite he doesn't agree with it at all.

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Has written of not very long winded, but I'll read the key.

[01:32:03]

But his point is that when I said that the person will take a day off because they were disturbed by celebrities that they didn't know, he says, or when anything but a chatroom session where technically they are only seeing their own colleagues on camera and screen. But there are other subscribers in the shadows looking at you, listening to asking you questions and getting the questions answered. It kind of creates a sense of importance amongst us. I can't speak for everyone, but last weekend was my first annual chatroom session.

[01:32:30]

And when me when Mr. Meraj, I think you may not address my question, even though none of the PMO subscribers could see or know me, I felt good about it. And on social media, you know, everyone like me is about to get some time to respond to people. And he goes on to say, when the celebrity dies and I'm not sure that's who you interact with, will have no one to watch the interviews at length, like Mr.

[01:32:51]

Von Conquistadores, put it, simply shakes our world.

[01:32:54]

I myself was very shaken by Mr. Khan's death. I had just watched his movie McMoon the night before, and I wake up the to the news of his untimely demise. I couldn't get anything done that day. He didn't even know existed. I didn't know him any better than his movies. But when you see an actor in the deep personal being, like being in the pajamas in the bedroom, talking to you about anything you feel you are listening to your friend, and when your friend passes away, it affects you no matter what.

[01:33:17]

And that is why it cannot be compared to the same thing as seeing someone running at a place, not saying that your experience was less traumatic, but that's not the same thing. And that is why the whole culture of safety is uncancel. Culture is so deeply rooted in today's day and age and so personal to each individual and cannot be snickered or ridiculed at all. Thank you. Well-made point point taken.

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I guess I tend to see the world as I am, which is central insensitive.

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So yeah, I guess I can't argue with that.

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I have a point already. Valid point. Valid point I guess.

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But by the way, in case you move at all as well as some of us have done for free of wondering what is an EL chatroom once or twice a month, depending on how busy we are, we come on to a zoom goal. And that link is sent to all subscribers and you can actually ask us questions that we answer live. It's an exercise in transparency and accountability that if you think what we're doing is good, bad, ugly, right or wrong.

[01:34:15]

And I just want to add to these means that it's nice that none of them can tell you or me for our views on the leave. And instead Rudys means that I agree. And I mean, I'm definitely more involved now listening. I mean, listening to this point of views make you think about your own position. And that's great.

[01:34:32]

Thank you for subscribers and they learn from us. Yeah.

[01:34:35]

Thank you for writing to us and not cancelling my views on gender have changed across episodes of awful and Awesome because the first time when I was like even for the conservative then Rowlings view on binary identity, because that's the world I grew up in. I went to an all boys boarding school and it's so deeply. This is what a guy thing is, this is what a girl thing is, it takes you a while and wonderful subscribers who just don't say, I bet you they had Nicole Gandu.

[01:35:05]

They actually explain the full thing to you so they can at least I can learn. And I like, yeah, I learned something new with every male. So that's. I've read your mail. You said I don't have to read it out. You've spoken about covid and how we can have a more informed discussion on covid. Point taken. We shall for sure. Thank you for your e-mail. And I have two or three more, which I can come to later.

[01:35:31]

But first, let's come to Kashmir. Let's start off with just a minute. You can just tell us the Supreme Court on set for the answers and then we can just get the panel's view on it.

[01:35:43]

Hi, this is Libby was the producer of. This podcast was recorded on a Thursday. On Friday morning, the detention of 17 souls made front page news on Indian Express and the Times of India, among other newspapers, 14 sources of wife went to the Supreme Court saying that my husband is illegally detained.

[01:36:04]

And it's been what? How many? It's been almost a year now.

[01:36:07]

It's going to be a year on August 5th. So he has been illegally detained. The central government said, no, of course, we haven't done. He's free to go, but he wants Supreme Court says, very good to talk to Baldini. The device police dismissed yesterday. NDTV cameras went to his house. The cops didn't let them in. They didn't let Mr. Saux out. And he's shouting from inside the Supreme Court. Gokey I cannot move.

[01:36:31]

So that is the now, this should, in my view, have been the prime debate across channel, the treatment front page news and papers today and all the wonderful papers that we keep the most express on notwithstanding.

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None of them had front page news and the has outright lied to the Supreme Court. A lie that is demonstrably a lie.

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There's video evidence of it, yet found that this is where we are. So that's the context of this. So, you know, a shot condition of Kashmir so that if you could win first and then we'll come to an end.

[01:37:03]

What do you make of the Supreme Court's ruling India, especially in the country you're in right now, how institutions are pushing back at each other, trying to keep some sort of a balance going with, you know, Portland, Jovic, Ethnological, nameless for Dion and the Portland? I think the or someone is going to court against Trump deploying these federal forces and other states. New York apparently is also seeing these people here. Do you see institutions pushing back to maintain a balance?

[01:37:36]

I mean, I like the term nameless party. It's a really that's that's that's basically what it is. And I think, you know, the judicial accountability is is a very cardinality, American democratic experience. Almost every other Western democracy. I mean, in Switzerland, I was told as to how much of a judge that remains accountable. And here also the democracy is practiced where the political class votes for the Supreme Court. And that's why they try to balance out how successful it is that the combination of the day.

[01:38:11]

But, you know, if it's Brett Kavanaugh or Ginzburg or other, you know, people of various political leanings, they have a very open, you know, sort of I mean, this is my political ideology or that's not how I look at justice and look at conservative justice or looking for a liberal justice. It has its own limitations, but also it has its ways of looking at it. You know, it might be wrong or right is something that we need to really look to the perspective of how individual experiences that.

[01:38:42]

And so compared to India, you know, the judicial system is beyond God, meaning you can't even have a non trust vote on judiciary. We cannot rebel or challenge the judicial challenge of the judicial decisions. But the constitution of the judiciary with the judges is never part of how we interpret this evil people, because when the Supreme Court gives a decision and government doesn't like to change the law being a mill and stuff like that, but it has a particular thing.

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There is a diversity that's really central to how the US court system works. And we know the US is one of the oldest continuing judicial system we had because changes among their case laws and interpretations have really gave new laws for civil rights and and other forms of segregation. Know Judiciary has played a very important political role in India, too. That happens Mullinville Commission and various other important cases, Charboneau and others. And in this case, whenever the. You can look at the the Supreme Court date is at high court judges and look at the cost of metrics, metrics as to how it what cost person is represented and what gender game of that is represented.

[01:40:12]

And then look at the kind of judgments they give, because even when Justice Sotomayor was there as well, that's problematic. Think he was he gave in one of the speeches said, you know, the influences of the judge's background kind of constituted in the way this is being. The question is, what I'm saying is, I don't think I can say, for example, what is likely to happen to a person who doesn't even know what I stand for.

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I don't see because I do want to experience you need to really have an experience of the local laws, customs, traditions. Sometimes it might contradict with the Indian constitution. That doesn't mean that person is criminal, but the people who decide the future and fate of this community are the people who don't belong to the similarly with the experience or OBIS experience. The people are not represented there and there is a huge what we call nepotism. And in that is a euphemism for casteism.

[01:41:12]

It's across the network that operates in function of nepotism. And one should look out who have actually produced a report in about two or three years of extensive. And then they found out they literally went on finding out their relations and so on. The one that was before his grandfather was also chief justice. Similarly with in the middle of all of them, he wrote actually a thesis on affirmative action and in 1986 at Harvard for the injury that his father was also a Supreme Court judge.

[01:41:44]

Then, of course, we have the ability of two justices are going to the chief minister to go on to. There is a very clear metaphor, and we don't have a public scrutiny. And the lawmakers, especially the individual lawmakers and the little lawmakers, most of them have been arguing that we really need to change the way courts function. Boss, to look at first of all, you have to understand the legal system. And basically you go for WIWA and your colleagues and to tell who was going to do the most good to get this oversight correct.

[01:42:21]

So my my bet is not frustrate the public needs to trust the court system so they can then, of course, have a transparency that doesn't happen. We don't know how and on what basis I do. And one example, if you remember Justice Scalia very well, he was a he was a high court judge, but he was discriminated against by his own genius. I mean, you have you have you know what people say he made a liberal accusation of casteism against his colleagues and harassment by his superiors.

[01:42:59]

You know, instead of going and apologizing and saying we'll establish a process, you know, what the Supreme Court is going to court did, with all due respect, they called him. They called the mentalistic, they called immunity. I mean, can you imagine a judge? I mean, you tell me the level of casteism that the person with this much reputation makes him. You know, what happens six or seven months later, these three. Did this become a national TV expert?

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It's almost been a little bit about the dysfunctional judiciary. That was one of the allegations that Justice Scalia had level. But these three people get the limelight and become the the big guy that they are garnering public sympathy. So. So why do I bring this is we didn't created a streamlining of process for America to flourish, for talent, to be technical, especially in judiciary, unless and until you are part of that cabal of very streamlined metal, almost like a child is prepared if you are in a judicial line, who for you to become a judge and then, of course, ascend to a certain level that has not happened there.

[01:44:16]

And I'm quoting here, you never used the little black judge on the Supreme Court bench, a woman on the Supreme Court bench. If there is no liberal or conservative supreme being in Yemen, what we have exactly the kind of effects.

[01:44:31]

So we had a project going right off, seeing the gender and cost representation of high court. However, how is that project as it is doing?

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Is doing it?

[01:44:40]

I think we should actually work on a project on this for a while. Hopefully we should put that up. Actually, your colleague was doing this, got an Excel sheet.

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You know how we have put all the judges name on the cast? Also, we have problems, all of them.

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And also the question.

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We try to do this in newsrooms, I don't know whether you saw this report that was released last year, but, you know, it's so hard because half the pool of young interns and our volunteers and our other team leaders, when they call up even people who I'm friendly with, her name them, these are very what they call, quote unquote, senior journalists that you calling from news. I delivered. And then you asked me because I was like, dude, that's a job.

[01:45:21]

She's supposed to call all you guys and editors at the end.

[01:45:27]

So, I mean, that way. I mean, I really hope your colleague brings out back and forth across identify and it's easier, especially threatening. You know, you went to the because, you know, it just makes for a bench down to declare, you know, people will always know that, you know, it is easy, you know.

[01:45:48]

You know, we actually discussed this with Sartaj, who was leading this entire project.

[01:45:54]

He's actually I think he's studying for his PhD in Jianyu and he's doing this data kind of is the subject of what he says.

[01:46:02]

The point is that if you just go by such names or research very easily sponsored by Tom Selleck, the OC has been accessible to him. While he says it is fairly easy in 80 percent of cases, you know, just in some cases you won't be able to tell, but everyone will have a stake to say that your research is flawed because you have just assumed that Matarazzo. Yes. And hateable here. So that is why we have to have one more layer of checking.

[01:46:24]

So we're figuring out the best way to do that.

[01:46:27]

I will I will tell you a bit of a simply is that is what exactly your colleague has said is very important, because Rouda here I mean, you know, what role can also be an environment, you know, so that's a second layer of investigation, of course. I mean ways as well. But many people Kovalik idea into what happened, this investigation. And that's why, you know, you need some of the scholars to work on conservation and the scholars who are sensitive will researchers who know how it functions and they will be able to map it out very, very nicely for us.

[01:47:04]

So, you guys, maybe I should actually look for that.

[01:47:08]

But I think that we we're starting work on that one, hopefully next month or the month after. So we will see a more robust report on do you want to come in on this whole, SAIFUDDIN? So the Supreme Court institutions pushing back. Is it is is it a scandal like I am claiming or it's not that big a deal? It's par for the course?

[01:47:27]

No, I actually I don't know the details and the sequence of events. I have not read it myself.

[01:47:34]

But if it did so, I think the court had jumped the gun and did due diligence. It has right on the part of the state police in this kind of citizens.

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And it is easy to keep people in house that is and is in lower courts.

[01:47:58]

The district police lie many times, but this is a high profile case of senior politician being under house arrest.

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So the police will be aware that they will be under scrutiny, as you said, that television cameras went there so they would to have anticipated the scrutiny would be very soon. And still, if they did the way that they did, it may be wrong. But it is not uncommon. In India, police lies to courts in lower courts many times. But to do it, despite the immediate possibility of scrutiny, is something unusual.

[01:48:46]

Yes, Manisha, you want to weigh in on this and I'm wondering if the Supreme Court will has the video they cleared, but.

[01:48:51]

Yeah, or are we at a stage of business where denominating when it comes to Kashmir, there are just no allies left in mainland India. I mean, like you said, even in newspapers, that we go by and expressing doing know it's not the front page news. That means it's just we've just accepted that it's going to be the same to Zonday and it's going to be a rule in the way that they want it to be. So there's very little sympathy even for Kashmiri politicians who've been detained for an average Kashmiri.

[01:49:19]

So I don't see this in any way. But I'm wondering, like in this detention, how how does it happen? So the polices that you read, they are not opening the gate. That's like, what if I just walk out, just push my way through? And what can physically they will stop, you know? I mean, he's not bashing them up, but he will say you can't looks stand in front of the gate. And Mr.

[01:49:35]

Sosa is not exactly the critical that he can pick up the government from across.

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The Supreme Court wants to see itself, you know, unbiased. They can take note of it and they can take some note of it.

[01:49:46]

And I find it highly unlikely to be just put in your house like that. And for what? I mean, he's not even a very active separatist. We saw he's not even though he was one supporting the BJP. Yeah, he's not a politician who's a troublemaker.

[01:50:03]

I think I definitely think this government has gone to different. In fact, my my my recommendation has something to do with that.

[01:50:09]

But and they can do it because they know there's no sympathy or there's going to be no media scrutiny. When it comes to me, this is where the media is now. You know, I realize the importance of media. Had this become a shouting thing like there's a global movement had become it will be impossible for governments to ignore this image as some goons.

[01:50:26]

Goons says that I love news only, but Storen maybe rude mail regarding Haftar, specifically about opinion, then giving his views on deaths during covid. He's had so many wrong things. In the span of one minute that I was forced out of writing, this email would have gone on to say that. Basically my point about that Indian Express report I quoted that if there had been a huge number of underreported deaths uncovered, the overall deaths for this quarter 2019 and 2020 would have been different.

[01:50:54]

And it wasn't I don't disagree with what you're saying, that it the deaths will rise. Just because people have got covid right now doesn't mean that there will be no more deaths. I was my part was actually very limited. I think you may have misunderstood that. I was extrapolating that point that covid does not it's not a serious disease. I was merely saying that the claim that there are a huge number of unreported covid that don't seem that huge or dramatic, if you just see the overall deaths registered in this, I think that was for a few states, Delhi and to three more.

[01:51:29]

It was it was just really it was just Delhi. Twenty six thousand deaths. Yeah. Five thousand short of last year. Last year. So you're right, covid. I mean one can be casual about it, but I was that data doesn't add up. You're saying that other data points that you know, the economic cost of the virus is going to cause many deaths.

[01:51:45]

Yes, it's going to end. It might. Then again, the mortality of one percent of people get it then. Yes, you're right. But I was only talking about the claim of the now and at least the daily data doesn't quite back that claim. That was my limited point that says we can that have started a podcast called Econ. Central. Why don't we collaborate? Well, everybody likes to retain their dependents. I can happily comment, but I don't think he'd want to be.

[01:52:13]

If he has his own thing going, why would he want to be a part of New Zealand? Really, as much as I like his work and happy to get him on here, but I think independence is important to people.

[01:52:23]

This email is a very long one from Oxford. Oxford has given many points on the Iran China deal. He's given four points. We will probably publish this mail. So all this going to happen on the council culture. He says it is we who who are perpetuating this phenomenon called council culture for minor incidents when some people lost their jobs because the statement of social media is hardly justified to call it a culture. Then he says, In your discussion, no one sought to clarify the difference between council culture and trolling.

[01:52:53]

You haven't counselled anyone till the time you haven't put him or her out of his job or other opportunities.

[01:52:57]

So trolling is not counter-culture. Arpit has nice things to say.

[01:53:02]

He says he's a follower of our work and true journalism. He's been wanting to get the true impact of the locust swarms because one day because big news and then they vanished.

[01:53:12]

So he says, I'm coming from the border. We have a nationwide monsoon. And the last report you did on in 2009 to me, I believe that in the meantime, I have visited all over and done it on back to Rajasthan. It is covered in the international press. Repeat, I can not help you on that. I really don't know where they came and they went and it vanished from the headlines.

[01:53:34]

The locust swarms last know they came to light.

[01:53:36]

Snow is all over. But yeah, maybe, maybe you can suggest something to read next episode.

[01:53:43]

And this email is from Bimal says, Please clarify until after he has heard about naming and shaming companies that sponsor are not black channels. In an ideal universe, the companies will withdraw their sponsorship to the program and hence someone like will be forced to self censor. Isn't this the same as cancel culture? Now, you don't have any proven criminal nexus between incitement of communal hatred. There's no concrete objective evidence of trust of this in your hand. But I strongly feel deep within yourself that Tottenham is doing is making our society unsafe.

[01:54:14]

The only difference between this and new line of thought and the walk sensitive youngsters of the West is that they are talking. They're taking good actions to its logical conclusion in us.

[01:54:23]

And I would never have existed.

[01:54:25]

And he'd been forced to censor himself by such actions if an American news laundry called him out. So how so?

[01:54:34]

How is that they who are getting things done as labeled squishy and hypersensitive, who don't fully get concepts of freedom of expression, liberty and people and team who are failing in getting the same things done are battle hardened, realistic, mature folks.

[01:54:48]

So I think it would be cancelled culture if we were taking on Arnab for siding with the prime minister or being right wing or being supportive of. Being a political propagandist, we're not doing any of that. In fact, it's OK if he was any of that.

[01:55:01]

But the fact is that he uses his shows to spread misinformation and incite communal passions by there was a case where he clearly said stuff like Hindoo, not a doing that hasn't happened, that go look at anemically, local hostility aimed at the Betka. He took a crime and made it communal and that's apparent. So we called him out for erroneous reporting and community reporting. And I mean, we I mean, and these are global standards.

[01:55:28]

I mean, these are acknowledgeable centuries of misinformation is what we're not cancelling him for, being a big supporter of what I think you might have missed in your analysis is that any culture is not a theorem. It's not two plus two equals four. And I can prove it. And that's that QED cultures exist in collective consciousness and social norms. Like I can have a show today that says that the Heijne that the 18th Metro station must go to, I can say Galeazzo, I can say I got caused by attitude shortage.

[01:56:06]

I think Wal-Mart will opt out than those I can see the panic button was in Monaco.

[01:56:12]

Nado, that's fine. I can see it.

[01:56:14]

And I think if someone says even that Cavaleri Escutia methodical, Renel sensate. I got up Escutia sponsor Correo up with Google. I don't think you would be writing this mail. Even that is someone's view and trust me. And that they will be people with the view that I just said. Now, in our view, what Arnab does overall Shivshankar does other than the outright false reporting they do, which is demonstrable, that is like a mathematical Tatum. I can prove that is untrue.

[01:56:46]

But even if I were to take that out of the equation in the culture that I believe we live in and in the phase of evolution of liberal thought and tolerance and mutual respect that we live in, he is still somewhere in the Stone Age. So you're right. I disagree with what did you make of it? Counterculture. But it is a culture and the culture that I come from and that I want to live in Arnab is a dick from hell and allelic, so I will call him out for it.

[01:57:18]

I know it's not the same thing, not because it is Matt, because culturally it is different.

[01:57:25]

That is my view if anyone wants to in honor of Suraj.

[01:57:28]

So if you want to have anything to say so little anything on about some cultures of the same kinds of culture, not just this, that when we call out sponsors who sponsor such hate filled shows, are we also basically indulging in cancer culture?

[01:57:44]

While I find people hypersensitive if they want want me to look, I don't actually know that is it this season, the opinion of liver failure, of liberal value, what will calls liberal value is very tasty to the community of water, meaning you can see the the base of this leak. It is interesting. But if you can't, then that that's what what people do is try to always use that logical, you know, even the hypersensitivity and all.

[01:58:15]

I would like to congratulate you for calling on the sponsors who are promoting this kind of hatred, because, you see, when the Nazi Holocaust was happening, there were corporations who were supporting and giving intelligence information like IBM was one of those. All right. And of course, it was taken to court. And, you know, actually, you know, where you were on them by telling them that these are the wrongs you are doing. And you better be careful, because what is happening in this is your interest in promoting your personal interests.

[01:58:49]

You're actually indirectly contributing to create more instability. And sometimes, you know, also the point is we are right now in war. Many people don't realize that because many people live in the middle class, GOCE in White Houses, they don't realize the the amount of water that is going on, especially if we look to the political decisions and all the attacks and all the kind of cases you are talking about. So when this storm will hopefully touch would be finished silence for some time, then we'll be able to hear what we're going to do right now.

[01:59:29]

This this cacophony of Baltimore is just is it's just it's just become synonymous with the cultural value. And when you are canceling them, you cancel the people who you think can have a potential of dialogue and they will be repairable. But but certain cases are this a loose cannon, if you know that this is not going to be this is a different kind of. And even if, for example, the likes of our and and others in the regime, even in the redemption, the movie, I mean, the kind of work they are doing and I know people are seeing many other of CEOs, for example, going up and all, what kind of what kind of memories does he want to give to them or also the other kind of cultures for the younger generation?

[02:00:23]

And then, of course, they will be like, that was a different time. I would like to come and apologize. No, the Nuremberg trial, if you fucked up, you've got to you've got to stand up to the crime you're committed. And of course, I'm taking it to extremes of comparing it to Nuremberg when I'm just dealing with an analogy that you cannot you will just wash your hands so the people like you guys are calling it out and making people aware and also telling the sponsors, I think it's the service of democracy.

[02:00:52]

Right.

[02:00:53]

Thank you so much, Onen. Do you have anything to say? UNcancel continue on there.

[02:00:57]

Last week about am I too, um, too harsh in my view on safety ism and expecting people to not be offended by this?

[02:01:10]

I have a very brief point to make, and that may be just a semantic quibbling, a kind of semantic kind of nit picking. But I am uncomfortable with the practice of the use of the hate and love dichotomy to represent very provocative media.

[02:01:37]

I would use harsher tones, but not hate in harsher terms, because in spite or I have I said once inspired malice, but not from what they do. They might be doing horrendous things, but the impact on the U.S., I don't see it as hate and love because the heat and love are very private emotions. And if you if to say that to someone, you get rid of it or isn't, it gives me your criticism of it a moral unassailably to you you cannot do.

[02:02:15]

You are putting yourself in a position where nobody would sell you because this is a hate and love, but these are private emotions that impact on viewers.

[02:02:26]

I see television news viewers now and they may be watching horrendous things when they don't and just somehow are filled with hate or love for somebody to watch.

[02:02:40]

I love them as carriers of malice despite. All right.

[02:02:48]

Thanks. Now, this maelstrom Atila high, then I'm sure you've received a lot of emails from people regarding your take on safety ism and your critique. And on a new here I am with a rather bland view on the whole thing, actually, with, I think in a very nuanced view.

[02:03:02]

Thank you for it. After reading a few articles on the same, I acknowledge two things as it is widely known and accepted by many.

[02:03:09]

Objectivity is not the way to deal with social political issues through political correctness is far from being a sacred virtue. There was an email you guys received in the last half hour which criticized I've been on the run, Maneesha, laughing at some examples that were being cited. All I have to say is that you can't take a person's humorous reaction on anything as the insensitivity towards a certain issue. For all you know, it could have been one of the coping mechanisms.

[02:03:31]

So good point. You're clearly smarter than I am. Having said that, the examples up in London gave after reading the guy's mail seemed a bit messed up to me. But I've been up in your view on safety isn't a sort of quote unquote basic? I totally agree that it could be very well, it could be taken advantage of.

[02:03:51]

But there are discrepancies almost everywhere. Safety isn't in its entirety, may not be the way to go for creating a mentally stable and safe environment.

[02:03:59]

However, as Maneesha mentioned, there are still a lot of stigma associated with mental health. Therefore, when it comes to judging the legitimacy of an individual's mental health problems, we must first be conditioned in a way that favors being kind and considerate. For that rule of thumb would be, in my opinion, give the concerned person benefit of doubt. Now I have a problem with safety and culture being portrayed as a Catch 22 kind of thing. That's because we must first strive to have conducive workplace environments where expressing one's issue must be an easy task no matter what the subject is.

[02:04:31]

This might be idealistic to a somewhat complex concept, but I can vouch that the celebrity works as it is, except it work remotely as it works exceptionally well in universities where the students studying together and the faculty have a brief but accurate knowledge about each other's background, etc..

[02:04:49]

Thanks, Matala.

[02:04:50]

That was very, very useful. And the last email from Gangel. Who has said that video on a girl was really moving and it I'm sure it wasn't as bad as the sound flood, but that agony is no less horrendous, he says. Asadi Gangel says. What can we as individuals do apart from donations to help make things better for them? I really don't know. You know, um, I guess the only people other than provide material help to help people whose hoagies have been flown by the rivers or by the overflowing.

[02:05:25]

Nahles unless you're physically here, which I would not advise because of covid in the current circumstances, I don't see one being able to do much other than donating to organizations that are working to help those. And like I said, during the pandemic, the Exodus identify, an organization that you can vouch for, is doing good work and give to them. I often work with the foundation I have seen first hand. They do really good work. The money is well used.

[02:05:57]

So I did not give to anybody in fund or see and fund. I gave to their foundation because they are still continuing the very good work. Identify an organization in your area that I repeat, you can first hand vouch for and and give it to them. But don't step out yourself. I don't think that's advisable.

[02:06:14]

On that note, out of love for little more on the Bihar floods, but maybe next Hafter, you can join us even if it's for 15 minutes to give us an update. Will you be back in? But not by next week?

[02:06:24]

No, not by next week or the week after.

[02:06:28]

Anyway, I am these days dividing my time between Mumbai and what are you doing in Bombay?

[02:06:36]

I'm in it for someone's treatment and I am also teaching you.

[02:06:43]

OK, or so on that note, thanks Seurat's. Thanks, Onen. Manisha Rahman. Can we get recommendations for the week before we say goodbye and thanks. I'm sure it's very late in where you are, so thank you for staying up. I appreciate it.

[02:07:01]

While 16 m.

[02:07:03]

Oh dear God, I'm so sorry, but that's that's my personal life, sir. But thank you for having me. I really enjoy it. Thank you and thank you and thank you.

[02:07:13]

I promise to read your book. Cosmati, hopefully we should have you on talking about your book as a video interview through Zoome. We'll do that soon.

[02:07:22]

But any other recommendations you have for our audience that that would risk their lives?

[02:07:29]

I mean, thank you for unallowed was pending, so let me finish that. And so as a reading list, is that what you're asking?

[02:07:37]

Yeah. Any, any recommendation we could be reading, agree. Watching it would be a sure whatever is something that you think could benefit our audience.

[02:07:44]

I mean, I think one of the piece that I recommended is to be Isabel Wilkerson. And there is a series called Cost in America by Phillip Martin. It's freely available. It's sponsored by Pulitzer Center. So it must be on the website, too. But even if you do a Google search course in America, Phillip Martin, you will come across an interesting story. So I could recommend that given the current scenario. Thanks.

[02:08:12]

Good night. Please go to sleep and have a restful sleep.

[02:08:17]

I guess if you and I look forward to the reports that are going to come out, especially on Judiciary, and I appreciate you guys for all the time and and the candor. Thank you. So thanks for that.

[02:08:30]

How do you honored your recommendation?

[02:08:35]

Yes, my recommendation is basically a product of coincidence. So I was reading some of it and literary works to you just after independence and decades and decades after independence. And just me and I had to have the operation of state of Illinois has come to know it's my look of it. It really does not look promising. Seems to be an indication of a literary work not being adapted well. So I think it would come on Netflix next month. It is already on BBC One.

[02:09:20]

So my recommendation is not to let information my recommendation is suitable by itself in the novel. It's supposed to be one of the longest novels written in English. So fifteen hundred pieces and but not the length.

[02:09:40]

I think it is the most ambitious and novel, one of the most ambitious novels written just for the setting of the narrative, the cast of characters and. Was FedEx and intertwined, that story is the state is not the kind of writer who believes in dazzling, buried, brilliant sentences or dates or contrivances, but this puts you into a world and like those 19th century great novelists. So pulling yourself into a world and that he has, of course, presented only a slice of life of those times and mainly the upper middle class and the elite of us.

[02:10:27]

See the that we know is the interpretation we had, as well as Calcutta and these basically these vicious people. And there is one I also related to high because the other much talked about novel of that period. And like Rushdie's Midnight's Children, I didn't like it because of its contrivances or to something like Marqués, when many people just feel that when horses fly the horse flying horses become the story, not the narrative itself.

[02:11:06]

So if it does not resort to those contrivance to play in a storyteller and very ambitious, one second recommendation is related to that only. And that is in the same period. Now, a very Hindi writer who edited literary journal Hun's I what ought to put it all and which was later published, as you said, gosh, now it is a think in and of the 1950s Middle-Class Life. And this is a kind of life that does not fit in.

[02:11:47]

So I think both together would complement in a way that they would complete a picture of a middle class scenario, at least in a part of northern India. These are these are the two thank you.

[02:12:03]

Romancer mini series called Tokyo Trial on Netflix of this is I wasn't, in fact, aware of this. And it's fun. Connollys has acted in that he was the India's entry. This was about the international military tribunal along the line of the Nuremberg trials trials. So very interesting. In fact, I never even met Netflix, OK, and then find Button has acted as if I'm acted as just as Paul.

[02:12:35]

But I just spun the presenting India niceto Monisha I second Anand's recommendations of why I think it's a it's one of my favorite novels, which is why I think the series will really disappoint. I can't believe yeah. I can't believe this guy is playing my man. That really good looking guy. What's his name. Child Qaboos son or is it funny brother or is Bakool man the character who has who's with the same Dabby.

[02:13:06]

OK, he's one of the most fascinating character so. Yeah but yeah I definitely read a suitable boy. There's an interesting piece in film companion by Bharadwaj Rangin on the headliners films maybe on break, but our obsession with news clearly isn't. He explores this whole outsider Inside Okung so chandrasekar power dynamic pretty well and he also places the burden on the audience. For example, I didn't know that Darroch which featured Janvi Kapoor and checkerboards brother see, I don't even know his name is dislikable.

[02:13:36]

Brother made a crazy amount of money and so naturally I made about one one point two crore so in Syria and eight point seven one zero truck. So he says that it's all fine to hold regional debt. But you guys also need to audience also needs to realize what they're encouraging and what they're putting out there. And I think it's a very good piece. I'm also reading Capelle, Commodity's, Melville and Republic. It's been talked about quite a bit, but I recently picked it up.

[02:14:02]

It's really interesting, refreshing. It's not the usual sort of stuff that's written about India and it's mostly post independent.

[02:14:09]

And yes, it's interesting and I watched Hautala Mumbai, there's an old movie about twenty six eleven attack. If you haven't watched it you should. It really boils my blood watching it. I think it really brings to four the horror of that terrorist attack on Obamacare.

[02:14:25]

But it's a fabulous movie.

[02:14:27]

It took a foreigner to make it just the way to capture the whole thing of being in that hotel, being trapped the indiscriminate way in which they went about murdering, slaughtering people with AK 47.

[02:14:38]

And you had like your cops would like it, such Saddam's weapons going after these. And these young boys know it's also works as a good propaganda film for the right, I guess, because it really makes you angry against Pakistan. I'm extremely angry at this whole terror nexus and all. How the government then was completely like for one day, they just didn't know what was happening. It was just completely it took 24 hours for property enforcement to come.

[02:15:03]

I was shooting high on a plate and we were somewhere in Punjab. I think I was in there. And I think Rockeymoore came and said, I've seen the TV. I was like, what? He said he was addicted. So I went to the room and this was happening in the first report. So that is a Guanghua. I think Goffman the guy was the first one to little.

[02:15:20]

And then later for the and then of course, as then I remember, we had to go to sleep.

[02:15:27]

I said, we have a really 5:00 start in the morning, please, everyone go to sleep so we can wake up on time for the and the chili.

[02:15:34]

The most chilling aspect is that here are these men who how do you fight someone who doesn't care about death? I mean, they were there to die and Kim. But so but I think from this you have to learn lessons. You make sure that you don't turn more people into those who don't care about the wall, which is, I think, also what's happening.

[02:15:55]

But my recommendations are to I think this a very important piece. And I think it won't be read enough, really, because she has written it and she which has a lot of haters, but she really just read a lot.

[02:16:05]

I know. Exactly. Plea for people with a lot of people also just because Shivam her, because, you know, he sometimes writes provocative pieces, sometimes he makes predictions don't come true or whatever, but but he writes real good. Business is a very important piece in print. It says, Indians general regret the silence of Modi's ever growing list of political prisoners. And he lists all the people. You know, if you stand up against that, you know, one after the other, we don't know yet.

[02:16:27]

We are recording this early in the morning, but we'll know later in the day. We have some information about some students that may be picked up by the police today. So I think this is an important piece. And one thing that I recommend action often and also and I don't have to because I want to have the audience to watch it. It's a show called Norsemen on Netflix. And I think it's hysterically funny. I was cackling like a witch while watching it.

[02:16:51]

But what also struck me was how it has escaped the scrutiny of the police, like, you know, a little bit and was was was had to apologize to me because of so many shows have apologized here. They make jokes on people who are differently abled. They are rape jokes, they're jokes and pillaging. And some have a broader point, which I understand humor works like that. If you're making a bigger point, you can use a fulcrum that is, you know, offensive.

[02:17:22]

But some of these jokes are there just for the fun of it. It is not making a broader point. And how does how does this show get a free pass? But I think it's a very funny show and it has some really good contemporary references. Also on that note, I'd like to thank Clippy, Aditya, Anil and everybody else that go into making this show. And like I said, a lot of people work hard to make these shows happen.

[02:17:44]

These podcasts happen, are reporting also costs money. Do go to news money.com. See what we do. Bajou keep news free and for the duration that half is free, shared it with five or six people, you know, and if you can, please don't stop paying just because Hafter is free for this time period, we still need to pay bills and salaries. I'd like to end this halftime with the song dedication to the central government and its constant utterances down the few years to the Supreme Court.

[02:18:15]

The. Maybe. De de de de de de de de de de de de de de de jure.

[02:19:02]

All the news laundry podcasts are available on Stitcher, iTunes and any other podcast platforms, please subscribe to News Laundry, help us keep news independents.

[02:19:12]

Watch all our podcasts on news, pop culture, current affairs and sport. Visit Newsround dot com. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and subscribe to our YouTube channel.