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This is a news laundry podcast and you're listening to and I'll have the honorees up, Nelligan or Nusantara up the the short. Welcome to the two nine episode of Haftar. My God, we've come a long way.


Thank you all who have been encouraging us through this journey.


We come to you from a very wet and rainy Delhi, which is quite nice, actually, I guess unless for those who probably have their homes flooded, we have had an action packed week, so we try to pack in as much as we can in an hour and a half or two hours, however long we go. So if we miss out some stuff, I apologize. But it has really been a very newsy week on the Hafter this week.


We have a guest who has been with us before, Heartstring Bartosz.


I, like many of you, already know who are Tosches.


But for those of you who are new additions to the Hafter team of listening to our weekly podcast, he is the political editor of Caravan magazine. He's the author of Waters Close Over US A Journey along the Border.


He's been the political editor at Open magazine.


He's the co-author of A Certain Ambiguity, a mathematical novel which won the Association of American Publishers Award for Best Professional Scholarly Book on mathematics for 2007. He has worked for the Indian Express, The Halcon Mail today.


So you are basically you can be attacked by the science of saying humanities, religion Lisburn then couch potato Tonnie.


I used to say these things myself.


So how terrible gelati. At least you're honest.


Also joining us in our studio is Ron Paul. Hi Meraj Loon, who's just returned from his holiday to Kashmir. Hello. And Manisha Pandey, looking forward to a non-existent holiday through the hills, which may or may not happen.


I'm going on holiday on all the money, meals, laundry owes me. I am planning one.


Oh, by the way, I don't know. We've started paying half the panelists now, that's all.


I was collecting back wages. That's why I this is not a Supreme Court order that's retrospective. It is only from now on you'll be paid for appearances. And not just that, you will also get a gift hamper. And I will say that we have some fantastic gift hampers.


Coming up, one of the subject Halli subset of herbal soaps. Really nice.


So enjoy my Jarkko Komal Rangeen Banani Mudguard, Greggy Hamady subclans.


I've got the lights up and I look forward to this and we shall send you the subject that so. And by the way, we'll have our Independence Month offer where you can get the subject so upset. It's a really nice upset. You can check out the photographs on Instagram and Twitter and we'll also have a special scheme for our subscribers, by the way, that'll be only available to subscribers. And of course, guests such as those are not supposed to join us.


But he was on his way by train, back to partner. And the train is expectedly over three, four hours late. He was supposed to finish at ten o'clock so he could join us. It's 12 fifteen as we start recording this podcast. Twelve, fifteen on the 13th of August on a Thursday.


So unfortunately, we're not going to join us this after he'll come next after them. On that note, a bunch of Jews are going to go with the headlines and then we can start the discussions.


Three people were killed in police firing in Bengaluru and 160 police personnel were injured. This is owing to violence over a Facebook post.


Even journalists came under attack while covering this riot that broke out. Three caravan reporters were attacked by a mob, not deliver a detailed report on this story.


That is a very harrowing events that unfolded that evening.


Sachin Pilot has called a truce with Gundy's and with presumably, but has lost control. We don't know yet.


But let's take a look. I don't know how they can go back to me. We have a lovely song for them at the end of this. After today morning, the Indian Express report tells us it's a chance that it has not been able to find any big transfers to recover these accounts from such an incredible account. I wonder if newstands are going to pick this up, because with the vengeance with which they've gone after calling her a gold digger and whatnot, hashtag Rashtriya now.




So, I mean I mean, this is just they'll pick up. She's gone through and now the D finds out that I mean, it says it's a bit of a joke that the community has just added one more thing.


Now we will look into the cash transaction so they couldn't find anything in the.


Yeah, my check look really horrible. How exactly are they going to do that? I don't see how am I going to get that? They think it's the culture. I have no idea how they'll do it.


But but I don't think that's what that's what TV channels will pay up a studio or anchors do not have the brilliance to ask the question.


Eighteen people died after an Air India plane broke into two at Calicut in Kerala. There's also been very devastating landslides there, which also resulted in casualties. Pranab Mukherjee conditions worsen. He remains on ventilator. Daura deployed the same, bumped him off to Twitter. Yes. And then he severely apologized and said, Sorry, sorry, sorry. Russia has launched it world's first registered covid-19 vaccine called Sapochnik. And apparently the name is kind of cocking a snook at us, because Sputnik's is also the vessel that went to space.


It was one that carried Yuri Gagarin. Was it somehow that was the first spacecraft they launched.


So, yeah, but of course, I don't think anyone's taking it in a hurry, although Putin said my daughter's taken it. I want to ask why haven't you?


Because he is 60 years. I have no idea.


So would Democrats have picked up Kamala Harris for U.S. vice presidential candidate? Much excitement in Indiana except in yesterday. And Korangal warned us that we should not get excited because she cares about human rights. It is a warning. So beware. Yes, beware.


She cares about human rights more than being Indian. They're mad, you know. Yeah. Yeah.


I think daughters have equal rights or a Hindu family properties the Supreme Court. And this will be effective retrospectively.


I think it's great. Yeah, I was a little confused about this. So basically to explain this had come into effect in 2005. Yeah. The only thing was at that time, all property, you know, that Wall Street inherited post 2005, this law would impact minorities in that respect.


Yes. The judgment of the court, though, had a very strange Sasebo deadline thrown in. The judges said Adornato always remains a loving daughter. A son is a son until he gets a wife and a daughter throughout life watching them because she said kids are already she gets possessive.


Watermann the even when they're getting a lot of these kinds of lines these days. No, they said the same thing about that bill to the person. Unbeknownst to me, they said Lord Krishna was born in this country.


Most judges are like uncles, ever step uncles.


I think they had been doing it even in the past. I've seen about 10, 15 years ago. So you had from Parana, the court all kind of got that correct.


Those are many other to to add to their judgment.


And also those are lines with a lot of wisdom. These are just like what siblings that you release someone because it was done.


So I do want to go to prison. She was born in jail. This is a lovely time to be in jail.


What is it? I think Grandma. And then he asked, do you still want Bill? He said, yes. So he said, I don't think you're very religious or something to that effect.


This is a ridiculous boy. Right. And he died at seventy, so has introduced me to leave of up to 10 despoiler for employees. It's got a lot of people talking on social media.


This here also allows for you on a trial basis in two districts and Jangi after August 15, they have not allowed it yet.


They're planning to start it in two districts, one in Jammu region, one in Kashmir, but nothing as of yet.


May I just intervene with one piece of me also, which may be of some interest at this point, which is that my intermixture, Gopal district has tested positive influence with the film on stage. Oh, yeah. Not only, et cetera, et cetera.


Oh, so he's not only was the PM, the PM even went and shook hands with him and he wasn't wearing a mask. You very cute looking at this.


Very stability's. I think the country. What should we do with it.


I tell you, Romainville cluster as Mignot call a 19 year old in Blancher died. She was being her parents say that she was she died in a road accident. But her parents say that she was being teased and harassed by people and she was trying to read them and she crashed and died as a somber story.


Again, 743 Tripathy Temple staff listed covid-19 positive since June 11, 11 743. So have they shut the temple? I hope so, yeah.


But this was shot. But more recently, I mean, after much damage had already been done, Esquina has been shot. I'm not so sure about that.


We just checked Gorian Lebanon's government steps down in the wake of Beirut blast. Can you imagine a government taking responsibility and stepping down for its actions or inaction in this case? Let's start off with what happened at Caravanned.


So we have to her prosecutors give us an idea of it.


Just give our audience a context. I'm sure many of them already read the report on Carbonaro News, laundry and elsewhere. But just quickly, those who may have not read the report, what happened and what has happened since as far as the law enforcement agencies are concerned?


OK, so first, yes, I think our report has done an excellent job on the report as well. Look, I mean, it's quite clear we've been reporting persistently and consistently and all of these reporters have been part of that report for the past, ever since February in terms of how the politicians, the daily police complicit in I mean, this is a parallel to it before. This is how exactly the political class and the police find the majority with the minority.


And we have reported that in great detail. One of the last reports that these people had filed was in that same police station, put out two women who were earlier complainants being harassed inside the police station. By the way, they had gone back to pursue this reportage and they had they were in agony where there was suffering flags which showed up to celebrate the gender. Medical policies tested positive, that homing pigeon. And they were taking photographs out in the streets, not in somebody's house, not of anybody with any permission.


This is public space. And they were surrounded by a mob, which. After a while, the man who was clearly seems to be orchestrating events came and identified himself as a BJP office with whom we are going by what was claimed. I'm giving you exact eyewitness accounts of what happened. Their political affiliations or their ideological affiliations of this place were very clear. In any case, they were in the right wing gathering. They surrounded the reporters, ask them what they were doing there to ask for the records.


So there's already this hostility towards the idea of the media reporting on them. And we must stay this for the fact that our prime minister, admirable prime minister in some ways for some people, has decided that reporting honestly on what happens on the ground as an international is already there is this perception and they look at the ideologues and one of our reporters writes on three is a Muslim from Kashmir. It further provokes that anger because you have an international profession being made by an international and national Muslim uncompassionate and they launch an assault.


He hands over the memory card. Well, before this happens, he says, you want anything. It this is not the time we are getting into confrontations. This is the clear instructions to them, because at that point, they had already called me and I said, tell them whatever they need, we give it to you. Get out of there safe. During this period of time, the police guys are also standing here or they were there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


These guys thought it would happen. And I saw Shahid, as you do badly and sort of interposes himself between Shahid the and you must see that this is their idea of cultural formation because he's a Urbancic is not attacked or assaulted in the same manner.


They are doing the same job at the same place. Yeah.


And by its presence there, things would have been far worse. Determined to lynch him, kill him. The usual the at all the usual standard gallery of the Hindu right so delightfully uses was all on display and the aggression was out of hand.


And a third journalist who I will not name because otherwise you wouldn't see the sequence of events was standing to one side. And at one point after the crowd is assaulting Shahid, they've taken the memory card. I think he hands over the camera, but I may be mistaken on one or two details, but the crowd knows that she is with them. They shut the gate. So these two journalists are left on one side of the gate and she tries to run.


She's chased by some men while she's being chased. At some point, a middle aged woman looks as though the exposes himself to her. She goes into an adjacent rally, which which is largely Muslim majority, where you have seen eyewitnesses and a group of 15, 20 men and women chase her, catch her and brutally beat her. Yeah, all the while, she's trying to get to the police station because she has been separated from those two reporters were on the other side of the road.


Finally, the police intervenes and takes them to the police station. She finally finds the other policeman, one who does not do much. The second one intervenes and finally gets to the same police station. And at this point, after all that has happened, and I must say, look, I have been on the field for twenty five years on three or four occasions, I have been detained by the police, either by the police and on two occasions by again, even when they were not in my office, people who didn't like the kind of stories we are planning to do, we've come close to many times.


The trip again was that was a Muslim with me. How dare he be there? But never have I encountered what happened with our reporter. What I am describing in terms of these, what literally amounts to assault and sexual harassment, I think there should be more serious. What would happen. I have never encountered this. So in some ways, everything in this government forced us from patriarchy, gender, Islamophobia, anti media. All of it lies at the heart of what this mob is doing to reporters who have been doing the job, honestly questioning, criticizing police for the last two or three months.


At the police station, complaints are written down, taken down and beaten. They even get a medical done. The same people who assaulted them have ended up outside the police station. They followed them where the medical is happening, waiting around what's wrong with policemen who are doing nothing to intervene. There is no hostility, but there is aggressive effort this whole. But finally, the complaint, the identity is registered today that, as we know it are the police has in some words and some people said these people had gone into some communally sensitive area.


Most of all under law. Is there a bar? Has the police announced this was communally sensitive? Is there a section one? Forty four? Is there a curfew? That's I mean, frankly, bullshit. It is.


The police and the journalists go all sorts of places to report the news. That's the job.


The second thing is that as far as this is going on, they have also later said that there has been a complaint from the other side. Now, we have no idea what this is. I presume the complaint is that they have I find it difficult to understand what the cross was.


Could it be that they enter our house? Are they? Robust, the desire to break up with what could possibly be said, some of the women have complained. So you can there is an inclination of a certain sense here. So there is, I think, an attempt to create a narrative here. So two men come on the street with cameras supposedly to commit the crime, in which case, why are you snatching their cameras and taking away their hard drives?


Would it not win the mob's interest to actually see what is their way out of the assaulting them? I mean, just even going by the stupidity of the police's logic. But I'm pointing out that this is an absurdity. We haven't seen the police behave in this manner with journalisms. And in my experience, anywhere in such a context with the gravity of charges which are cognizable offenses under the law, there is no choice with the police and the fire has to be registered.


And it has been is there now are we still without the fire?


That is not in fact, the DCPI not these daily tweeted yesterday that some journalists were taking photographs and interviews in a commonly sensitive area to which local people objected. Now look at the language. Local people do not object. Local people beat them up. Harasta go cheesed them there. As journalists like Harto said, we've been on the field. We're used to people objecting. We're used to people getting angry, you know, asking us to leave and we all how to.


And listen, in this case, one of the reporters was handling it in the way that he could, saying, look, you take my drive, you know, you take the photographs that we've clicked. But this is beyond objection to the presence of journalists. This is harassment. It's physical abuse.


I think the Delhi police has reached a level where their credibility is so shit, you know that. I mean, I. I don't know whether it has anything to do with how they behaved in the last few months or years.


You must also take this fact that this is a police that is reporting directly to the algae and to the algae directly to me. I am sitting right in most cases where serious questions of media freedom are involved. You would assume that the home minister is well aware of it and would be on the ball in this case. That makes us more apprehensive rather than helpful in any case of law being carried out. In some senses.


I'm going by my past experience and the police is building up the narrative. Police, the mob, it's clear for the police here, is playing the advisory role, you know, to this mob. Get them counter complaint filed.


Yes, because I'm going to it's like, what the hell does that even mean?


I mean, in fact, one of the guys told our reporters also that they're also to be blamed. Why did they go to the area? I mean, why why would they not go to Syria?


So I think we've reached a stage where the police's credibility when the incident was one to talk about. I don't know if it's connected or not, but just a couple of days ago, near my colony, there's a park. It's basically Somnath Park named after Burrum Chakra. So there was some guys walking around there. And these are not very affluent people. Are there any retired generals or anything? They were just some people from nearby. The colonies are not them which are, you know, Lord.


And there's some justice and all of them. I just got to tell you, this is a public park. I mean, you know who says I can't tell here? That's what it's for. Yeah. So this confidence, Leopardi, that God created such a chindi that how dare you touch me? Who the fuck do you think you are? And I was very impressed that he did not let it go. And he's not somebody. Bubka degree your Lord who has the privilege of being able to shelter the cop.


This guy was like I said, this is a sign of how what what people think of cops, because if you're a goon, then the best way to deal with you is also to be a goon. Right. What do people have to lose then? I mean, I don't recall someone really taking on a cop right there in a crowd gathering and the crowd gathered there. Also, there was an old woman that she actually works in a colony as a as a maid.


She's from the city.


They got to memorize capelet. Humera So the cop was on the defense. I was a good man.


And in this case, the cops had arrived at the I mean, they were definitely Hofman Aggie's what we were told, and they were just watching this happen. And now imagine what the residents there must be going through. These are journalists who can get beaten up and get no recourse. So imagine the Muslim residents who are staying there anyway. I mean, the cops, we know that from reporting of deadly riots, the cops joined in. In many cases, they pelted stones.


They joined the Hindu mobs in those on video. So imagine what residents going there are going through.


So what are you doing there? What are the future options? Her thoughts? I mean, you can't force them to file in a fire, right?


I mean I mean, I think what, you should at least come together and go to the police station and say this has happened because I think giving any reason for registering that, you can ask the court to file the what?


What do you think it would be inappropriate forward?


Look, that there are legal remedies. There's a whole procedure in some cases in terms of what can be done and not done. But, you know, those procedures have been built for what seemed like ordinary times. The expectation here is that this is a procedure that is loaded against the delivery of justice. And yes, so we will as necessary take steps to move whatever body that is required, the next corpse of one. Fifty six to go to the high court asked for the affair, but still this verdict was and that is one side of it, of course, as far as you said, journalistic.


What is the unions, the press club, etc. have spoken, but it has taken police 36 hours. It has taken the Editors Guild 36 hours not to issue a statement. Yeah, right. I mean, I don't know how they ever meet a deadline.


These are starting from there. Don't anybody like it? Because given what they are there for and the thing is, it is not our job to canvass or ask for support. We are doing journalistic duty. If it's what others perceive that this is part of a professional problem, it is not our problem. Right?


Yeah. Yeah, exactly.


Anyone can take what we have to do is to honestly keep doing the work we are doing and this persistent and as stubborn a manner as honestly as possible to keep writing on what happened in Delhi and in every other place. Yeah, that is the only answer. That is what these guys want us to stop. This is exactly.


And that is something that we shouldn't stop. So, in fact, I mean, some fantastic reports coming out of caravan.


And I think even we have decided, Romancer said that for the next year we are going to have every report, every fire has to be taken to a logical conclusion.


So by the I and in fact, I was telling me that I was asking them like, did they know that these guys are from Garamond? What did they read the report? What was this?


What experience that they looked at the I don't know any media attention because I said this whole international media idea has been built by the government.


Exactly. That's what I used to me. But then he also told me that he knows for sure that at least the news in these stories have been circulated there.


And, you know, they do feel a little the the crowd is hostile when they are that they're from news only because they've read the Hindi stories and they feel that the stories are, you know, they don't.


But in this case, I think what really played the trick, I mean, he's got the Kashmir the fact that he told us that they didn't assault me and they didn't attack me, they hit him because the movement is noisy.


I think that's that's my point. They were aggressive, aggressive against the idea of reporters. They were against I think at least I'm presuming some of them would have, because there have been some reports that have got circulated even in India and there has been a persistence. They would have been aware that would have added to it. But, yes, exactly what finally triggered all the violence and what followed is the very possibility of a Muslim report report. Yeah.


So they're reducing stripping everything down to identity. You are not a journalist. You are nothing. If you are a Muslim, you are meant to be beaten. It doesn't matter who you are, what you are doing and how dare you be here. I really wonder how this playing out in the forged man.


It would be interesting to see or even on the police force.


Maybe that's the story to be done is I mean, there is I told you, I think the other day when Modi came into Parbo and my friend was drunk, officer, his best mate are telling in the group WhatsApp group. Now, Modi is going to teach you has listened handicap's allograft.


So so they were just pissing him. You know, he is a Muslim and this is going to permeate every profession.


But they are like like Cartouche said. Sorry, go ahead.


Huertas. I just wanted to ask. So do like we've been talking about diversity in media and politics everywhere else. The whole idea of diversity is that marginalized communities who don't get their voices out, people from those communities come and they tell their own stories. So here do you have a Muslim reporter is being beaten up because he is a Muslim. Now you have a daily reporter. He'll be beaten up similarly like sofort, so on and so forth. What does this mean for journalism in a country like this where like most of the communities are marginalized?


So if you don't have people from those communities telling those stories and it's like people from other communities telling their stories, which is usually the upper caste Hindu communities. So what does that mean for the discourse in this country, for journalism in this country and eventually, obviously democracy in this country.


So not part of this assault is directed at that. First of all, that discrepancy or that discrimination is usually, as you guys have documented as we follow consistently and Carawan, is that in any case, through recruitment? And what do you think? There is a huge disparity. The diversity of the country is not represented in any newsroom anywhere. Yeah, yeah. So and when you have the words, they are trying to beat it out of the system, I mean, literally, that is what is happening.


I mean, we become such an odd newsroom because we have consciously paid attention to because it is not out of design. But the fact is that the reporters were there, there was a Muslim, there is a Sikh. They make great light of the fact that we know the executive editor who's put together Karaman is a Christian. I am, in their case, a Khalistan. All these things, in any case, for bothering them to that level, that this is a persistent anti Hindu plot, as if reportage in itself, and this is what they keep saying is think as if telling the truth and.


You're seeing your work on actually all the foundations of journalism, which they can't question because we are putting it up day after day. They can take us to court. They can do various things. We have written about the daily police, the daily police every day, strange rejoinders to our stories when we ask them for why they are not willing to speak.


The same police station where they have been charged with sexual assault had issued a press, not during themselves. We are not guilty. I mean, the very idea of justice process in that I wandered a little away from the city. But yes, that is a huge issue. That one, you really have diversity. And when you have diversity, there is this attempt to get it out of the system.


So do follow Caravan's coverage of this, which is amazing. I would like to thank all those NLC and members who have contributed to an entire project on the deadly riots. We've already got about five reports out of four and we will have dozens more.


We are just going to focus two reporters on this. So thank you for contributing. We have another Anil's in our project on custodial deaths up to contribute to that. In fact, I think it's almost popped up. We've had to like then I think we've almost stopped it up. Thank you. We'll have another our project and also to contribute to Caravanned. They are also subscription driven enterprise because like we say, when the public pays, the public is served.


You can go to caravanned dot com and is a dot com, right?


I haven't done a go to an Indian, but that's OK. It's easy to find within reach and then get the subscription.


That's right. The more organizations people have to understand the words. The outside is also important. If there are just one or two organizations doing this kind of work, they become that much more vulnerable. Right. More organizations doing the work. Three organizations doing the work on the daily violence are far better than only one organization doing it. We need to spread that support among various places which are doing the kind of work journalism needs.


Right. OK, before we move to the next subject, just want to mention you were right, Manisha.


I was wrong. Neuropathy is not closed, so it is. Despite 743 staff members testing covid positive data party is not closed.


And ViiV, somebody who is the chairman of the TTD, which I'm guessing is the report party, the board, whatever he is called, it is good that he was one of complete that without knowing I was waiting to hear.


What do you say? Is it the same somebody who was the RBA governor? I don't know. I don't think.


I don't know. Yeah, I really hope not.


So he says he's been quoted as saying it's not just enteropathy case on the rise all over Endre. Our deputies believe that if they come and have a version of Lord Lord Balaji, it'll all be fine. We respect their wishes or Lord biologies that'll take care of us.


He will guide us through this crisis like he always did on. Good. So yeah, that's a majority.


Get to me. Can you imagine seeing this? Can you imagine any mosque, even if anything, of what's the gentleman's name from Ramdin, a woman whose husband tested positive.


The head priest pulled the trigger.


Balwyn maybe Abdul Hamid. He would have been accused of being a ISIS strange Gurunath bomb that he actually had got thrown out. Then he got close to the PM as he rebuked and not just as a joke book for assassination.


Yeah, because the police would go that far. Yes. That's the world we live in right now.


Just remember and it is spreading. I mean, obviously, we know this this is what is happening with Muslims when the are gathering is taking place. Similar remarks were passed about the clergy, which is only fair. I think they deserve it for getting people gathered at such a point of time. But somehow the vast majority of this country, the vast majority of religious leaders who happen to be Hindu are particularly immune and not allowed to get away with the kind of nonsense nobody else will be allowed.


Yeah, exactly. I can't imagine anyone seeing this and getting away with it without at least like dozens of primetime shows depicting him as like some sort of a bomb.


So we also now would just like to discuss what happened in Bangalore. I'll give you a bit of a context of that. Basically, three people were killed in police fighting and reports say 60 police personnel have been injured. And the video from that is there was a huge mob that gathered outside this Congress and House. In fact, they set it on fire, I believe. And this Congress family also is Dalit. And his nephew had posted on Facebook something about the prophet.


I guess the post is deleted now, but it was something that is dedicated to the prophet. I think it was. Does anyone know what the what the innuendo suggestion was?


It's the standard right wing thing, how Prophet Muhammad, you know, married a child molester.


And so it was along those lines of huge crowd gathered. And, of course, it led to violence. And now there have been some arrests made. And this has given a lot of ammunition to the Hindu right to say and Meems have gone around that you can crack a joke on Shivaji, not Shivaji isn't Shivji. You can crack a joke. Nothing will happen. You crack a joke on Christianity, you will go to court. What happened to AIB and you crack a joke on the prophet.


And this is what will happen. And, you know, I'm just going to go on to this one article on this Uganda's, which I found extremely.


Shallow and not not smart, which I said last week, and we've got a few e-mails this time that have disagreed with me and we'll talk about that. But the whole thing about the prophet insult added, becoming this violent, this thing having normalized things to an extent where it was just okay to to say that any insult on the prophet will lead to a violent, like, shitstorm like what happened in the Jesus. What was that French this thing about Charlie Hebdo.


Charlie Hebdo. I mean, that was that it was there wasn't Speaker Samajwadi Patika. There was a minister who had said that I for a living, like for the head of someone who is a cartoonist and that will continue to be in power. Now, I don't know whether what the coverage was, is that any metric to draw the equivalence. But when something like this happens and a sitting minister, I think of the minister for state and you pay for something or the other that guy and he says something like this, I mean, is the shitstorm there less than what it is if the Hindu right reacts the same way?


I mean, I'm just trying to figure out, is that the case manager, Meraj Rahman, and after that, we're going to have to I don't really get a question like that.


Question is that at that time, a sitting minister, when he said there are 11 legs or 51 legs of anyone who gets the head of whoever's made this cartoon was the shitstorm of the media, which, you know, calls out the Hindu right. Well, now, of course they don't. But the few who do like us, for example. Is it a fair criticism that the shitstorm we create against someone like him is less or not non, non existent?


There's a lot of shitstorm on Bangalore. I think people rightfully know now.


Now. But what I'm saying is historic.


Historically, I don't think so.


I think I mean, yeah, of course they've been you know, like you've had people bow down to these sentiments, for example, I mean, it itself that refuse to, you know, get him to resign, also famously suffered because of that. So there has been I mean, there have been political factions that have appeased it. But in the current context of majority in India, I don't think it's relevant so much to look back at the past, because today you cannot crack a joke on Krishna or in the in similar win.


This was him basically saying the prophet is a rapist. If you say that about which I think you would be in jail. In this case, the mob went crazy because he wasn't jailed in time. I'm against all jailing or whatever for the post, but I don't think it's true that you could say this about Hindu gods and get away variegation.


Hindustan Times recently where this young reporter said something similar about Krishna. She said he's a etc. sexual harasser and she was fired and there was a huge social media backlash against him. That was unfortunate.


But it is certainly blasphemy laws have been stronger in Islam and worldwide. We've seen there's been more of a backlash. Yeah, but that is in Islamic countries, not an Islamic country. What I'm trying to say is, for example, Shahid Siddiqui went something like this happens. He often hedges his criticism. He says, you should not say that about the prophet. He should not say this about.


But he is not seen as the Hindu the Muslim equivalent of the Yogi Berra. Like Yogi saying that I will not go for the groundbreaking of the Masjid, which is shocking. And I don't see Shahid Siddiqui as an extreme voice. But some of his statements in the past, when someone has made fun of the prophet or something rather than side with a certain order, he does side with outraged, but he's not caught or he he's not considered a right to consider liberal Muslims.


If we just look at India also, if he if you look at the same case and make it like someone saying something about Hindus, even the most progressive of Hindu voices will also say, but it's not OK to crack jokes like this about Boko Haram.


I don't think so.


I don't think anyone will. People will have that. But they'll say, well, it's not fair. Don't resort to violence, but do not, you know, hurt sentiments of people.


I mean, let's look at the context. We move from an age. Whether I agree with that or not, I am on the side of actually, you know, my views on religious blasphemy of all sorts is that really I couldn't care less. We are allowed to express what we were a society because you negotiate multicultural societies, negotiate outside the law ways in which you exist, which is that, you know, I will not go out of my way to be in a way that will provoke my name.


But this is not always the case. I've grown up in that I like my view. But that doesn't mean I will do it in a way that is probably I will not speak about the prophet because I know that it hurts sentiments in certain ways. It is really there is no necessity for me. So this was part of where we were. Now, in the current climate, there is a hardening of positions across all religions and obviously minorities are that much more insecure in their identity.


They will react and it is not particular. You make so much of blasphemy in Islam. Let us pay attention to the traditions. What happens to the sacrilege of the Grant Sahib in Punjab? Mobs violence burning. We forget that, right? You try cracking a joke in London on this program. Anywhere about six figures, you will see the backlash will be more virulent. Anything you can imagine is things are at that place, that nature, that is where we as a society and that is new.


And you're saying that's a new thing.


It wasn't like that earlier when people would not this need to go out publicly on Facebook and put out some great liberalism of yours by quoting the prophet or making these issues. These are deliberate provocations. What I think under the law should be defensible are also part of our public climate. There are problems because of this, but we've reached a point where these are not arguments about faith, debates of reason of, you know, whether we should be allowed to say this or that those were meant to provoke.


Now that the provocation happened that way is absolutely incorrect, it should happen that way. But we are in the current situation where we will get these flash points easy to set them off. For example, we keep seeing that there is something particular about blasphemy in Islam. What have we seen about cow slaughter in this country? Yeah, I mean, the idea for one piece of flesh, which is probably goat meat most of the time, the actual lynching of a person, where is the equivalent of that in any other religion?


What happens in this society in certain processes in Bangladesh? So when you have Muslim mobs coming out on the streets where they should never have been in the first place, the police is very willing to act people. I think that there's a big difference.


There is the last time you saw a Hindu mob being fired upon and three people killed. When there is similar reactions happening, this huge discrimination, when there are Hindus homes, even Hindu liberal students protesting the police action, the different manners from they are not always the majority areas.


I think the way the imbalance in how you're dealing with issues and we are looking at this one particular community to hang on of the problem starts from the very top in terms of what ideology has become embedded in this country in the name of whatever Hinduism is that Meraj come in because he is, you know, the one voice who hasn't spoken to the whole idea of representation is that so many can come in after that.


I agree completely with the heart of this problem. This is one big aspect which comes across, which is that when the police is responding to similarly wabbits, it's a very different story.


Three people have died. And now the first aspect is that violence, it's not like justified in any way.


If you go to the Koran there in Koran, in the traditions of the prophet, there is absolutely no idea of blasphemy. The idea of blasphemy in Islam is only found in the figure, which is the legal jurisprudence, which is the legal opinions of the scholars. And the idea came from the Christian theology.


So in court, in the Koran, Koran and its how not just to an unjust Prophet Mohammed, but prophets before him were coerced, were the most vilest of words to use against them. And what was their response? What did I tell them to do? Say the kind. Would you respond? Be patient. Same with the prophet.


He was smuggling abortion and every religious texts people interpret as they want.


Exactly like using that as the logical conclusion will never work. Exactly. So this violence I mean, this is no justification for it. There is no religious justification, political justification, no justification at all for it. That's why it is. The second aspect is that Islamophobia in this country, like this anti-Muslim sentiment, has built up so much that Lagarto said these are unnecessary things. How does it matter to you what the prophet did like fifteen hundred years ago?


Unless you criticise the theology, unless you criticize what Islam says now and how it's affecting a story.


So you are breaking up these things only to provoke you to provoke.


Yeah. And to incite. I mean, more than provoke.


It's to actively say that your goal is and this is happening in a context of the political messaging to this. It's not just stand up comic making a joke.


This is happening in a context where it's across the and it's happening in a context where just like a week ago, a temple was started being built on on land, which used to be a mosque which was demolished and in the aftermath of which, like thousands of people were killed.


So basically the so that insecurity was talking about it's a reaction, things that I think one place where we kind of fall short of an honest discussion.


I remember I got a lot of pushback for that article I wrote supporting Bill Maher. You know, where he not he he mentioned the whole thing of there is certain extreme right that what we even call progressive Muslims will tolerate where that extreme right progressive Christians won't tolerate, for example, or they will not hold their punches when criticizing that. And he gave several examples in the U.S., I understand the context that they're different. He has a different but I sometimes I'm dissatisfied with political voices.


And I get the context today, like like you said, it's just like one week after this whole Groundling, which is a dog with Silkeborg Samarra's education. Muscleman, go out and do you know, to Tumbarumba normal, as we shall discuss that also, but before this also the like like the push the door because, you know, other religion can come to the reform for Hinduism. Caste system has to be reformed by Hindus. We have to speak up because if others speak of the devil, which is going to happen.


Similarly, Islam also has to be reformed from within Islam there. Sometimes I think our political voices on that, even the ones you consider moderate, are not progressive enough, in my view. What do you think?


I think the most difficult thing is to stand up against the bigotry and the hatred and the policies and the narrowness of the communities and the religion you come from. It's far easier to sit on judgment on others and say this is wrong, that this is wrong. This especially in times of stress, you know, it is far more easy to be able to speak of, you know, when it was this sort of back, the number of people who were really left in Punjab in the mid 80s would have been many, many, many, many.


Yeah, it took courage.


That is exactly what I mean, is that there are certain comparisons did exist in the past. What is the argument from the past? If you think we are in a situation, the arguments from the past are always dangerous. I don't have an argument from the past. Are we talking of the past 20 years or 30 years ago? We are in a situation we should know what is happening in that context. Yet I agree people should be far harsher on their own community.


But I don't think the comparison because you can't just pick up one person and compare on a reaction to a Shahid Sadiqi and a reaction to a they're not can be compatible because you have to see the context in which of did you or what he has done. The history of a man of violence has been responsible for many things.


You're saying it's not it's not just about that one statement. It was a statement.


You know what the import behind that statement coming from a figure of political power is? I mean, we are very far from the you may never have that even a sense of the case of this country. I'm saying these things. What is the feeling that I have of sympathy? And you say that these are comparable intellectually curious. What does it mean in the absence of being in the presence of this imbalance of power right now?


And I think in this case, it's also I mean, we should note that by the evening there was a crowd of young Muslim men who formed a chain and protect the temple. So there's in the same area Bangladesh.


So there was immediate and there was immediately leaders from the community coming up and saying that, OK, please don't you know that I think the voices amongst us, I think it's political voice, but voices, they're local in Bangalore, like local leaders, local leaders came up and said, like, don't resort to violence.


Local young Muslim boys came in, formed a chain to protect their temple that was around that.


So that, you know, as an instant sort of attack that and also there's been I mean, within the community in Bangalore, there's been a lot of calming of no, this is going to use this forum. And I don't think the similar thing would have happened if it was Hindu.


This is involved Hindu leaders. You would have had the chief minister come there and rally and said, gee, that's true, not today.


I mean, although not today, maybe 10 years ago, I would have said. But today, no Hindu will also come forward. Right. Like, for example, look at everything from Priyanka Gandhi to these congratulating everyone for the building.


No, I'm saying that if this was a case of someone upsetting Hindu sentiment, that's what I'm saying. And the leaders would have come and exaggerated the situation.


I'm saying even within a context where Rahul and Priyanka congratulating whoever for the temple building right there is, I think, let's face it, there is an institutionalized violence against Muslims, not minorities, Muslims specific specifically.


This is happening. So the the in the name of nationalism and I think this religious identities, I mean, have also this majoritarian nationalism is includes all the religions except Muslims. So this is what is happening.


I think this is the and also what you said about what he form within Islamic tradition all over the world, not just in India. There have been there are happening right now and there have been since the beginning, so many movements, so many scholarly sort of mucked up the schools which have tried to reinterpret and reinterpret the traditions and the Koran and the extremism that has seeped in over the last like 70, 80 years. They did of it. I mean, ISIS, for example, it was defeated with the Muslims, the forces that are railing against the Taliban and the other extremists, the Muslims themselves.


And their legacy, though this is a free school, does, though, what I forgot the name of the Egyptian school that are protesting against the going back against this kind of extremism.


So that is happening within the community also.


I mean, triple the like. In India, it was Muslim women who went and petitioned, not just Muslim women, Muslim scholars also. I mean, because they pointed out this was a. It's a long discussion, and I do believe it's simplistic, I guess. Also, I think I mean, like most other things, it boils down to money. I think there is something to be said that Saudi is so rich. I think if the economic balance is different, maybe the the reform voices would have been louder than some of the Wahhabi voices, for example.


It could have been. I think there's a huge economic reason, but that's a much.


And the Saudi project, for example, the Wahhabi it's not a religious project. It's a political project.


Exactly. And and economics has a lot to do with. Exactly. So I think that's a little more complicated. But I just move on to the next thing that we'll discuss, which is going to be Kamala Harris. Actually, I want to briefly discuss her because it has left many of the Trump Modiba hearts confused in America.


I'm seeing I mean, I will not read it, but I'm seeing a lot of these pieces, one by Juggy, that says that the are Indians. Kamala Harris is not Indian. That professor, what is the Indian right. So upset. Can you please explain?


Because because of having fallen, you have to see some of her statements about Kashmir in the recent past. But before I do that, I just had a couple of emails to read. And before the emails, I'm going to tell you guys the Adilson project, which is almost popped up now, I think to like Tendu, please stop it up. It's on, you know, triggered by the Pietro's on his son Bannocks brutal murder in Tamil Nadu. Tamil Nadu.


Sorry, before I'm again chastised for mispronouncing this.


So we are going to be doing a report on such custodial deaths, not just from Tamil Nadu, but from other parts of the country as well. And this has an important political aspect to it as a, you know, a human story as well. And it is a political story as well. So do go to news dot com, go to the NLC and our page, go to the subscribe button and do contribute to the Senate. And by the way, we have some fantastic merchandise for our members.


So CNN members will be sent that merchandise to check out our social media handles. We will be unveiling those products very soon. So just a couple of emails and then we will move on to this Kamala Harris thing. These are Mahindra. He says the NLD might want to see more interviews of the. I agree that it is anything coming soon. Can you do an I agree with you. I'll get it there. I'd love to. Mahendradatta, give me an interview, but we shall continue to try the I agree format only works when I'm actually with the person.


The physical proximity is very important of the I agree format, but we try to do some more interviews. But discovered lockdown of this social distancing has really shifted the interview process because he has a lot to do with, like the kind of dynamic you have physically then mentally. Bitola says, hi, peeps, I've been following up on the topic of safety, Zimmers a lot more. And there have been several upgrades in my understanding of the same since I mail you guys last TAFTA, I was more on the snowflake.


She's put this in inverted commas, no intention of demeaning anyone.


I was one of the snowflake side of the narrative before and supported safety them solely because I thought it was a way to prevent foreseeable attacks on mental health and emotional security. But now, after obsessing over this stuff for a week and reading all sorts of narratives, I think we as a society will be better off without safety ism. While I think mental health and emotional security must be prioritized in this lonely and constantly expanding world, one must also consider that subcultures like safety is not a threat to freedom of expression in major life altering ways.


I have a brain posture kind of example to prove this, and I hope I cause a lot of listeners to rethink their view on this. So here it goes. Imagine the predicament will be if safety becomes prevalent and legit and honest, honorable prime minister could opt out of an unbiased interview because by saying he doesn't feel safe around Ravich or current and we all would have to live with it, I think that is what he feels.


There is a lot of negative consequences of safety as opposed to some constructive changes, which basically means that there are far more exceptions in it for them to be considered exceptions. And there is a very narrow space or rather no space at all for modifications. So I am with another on this one and I take back calling his views basic in the last half that a person named Syal said a lot of things which are twisted and somewhat out of context. Yet I find it interesting and address all that stuff in a debate with him or with anyone whose views resonate with his best.


Mikhaila great, wonderful producer Aditya will just make a note, Matala, and if he can get Matala and Sergel on an end, AllVoices Annell. Because the whole idea of analysis and elevates is our subscribers can debate with each other so that we can once again teach news professionals as news consumers that this is what the debate is. We can both be friendly and yet disagree on something and debate. And there's other email with I'm a subscriber for the last few years and I absolutely look forward to the weekly Hafter.


I usually say to the Hafter and other news reports when I'm running walking. So I believe you have contributed to my health. I don't thank you that that means a lot because I definitely think everyone should exercise.


Each band member on the Hafter brings in a different perspective to discussions. And there have been times that I have changed my opinion about the topic midway in between after I do on other than the most. Well, I mean not. Agree with his view, he brings a feeling of rationality and almost professor like quality when adding his opinions. I'm a big fan of the other side. By that, I mean, I'm always keen to understand the other side of any discussion.


That's really nice. Yeah, that's that's that's very rare.


It's a very great quality. We need more like you.


And then it goes on to say for this very reason I subscribe to two new sites, in my opinion are far from each other's philosophy as chalk, chalk and cheese that is used for independent media is absolutely critical to the wellbeing of any democracy. And I laud New Zealand for sticking to this principle when the public pays the public itself. I will always support independent media, and I hope that you continue to churn out amazing reports, videos that I'm so fond of.


All the best in New Zealand regards. Albritton Albritton, thank you all. I just had one little thing that I don't mean to be petty and I really value your subscription. And, you know, I myself have been a huge enthusiast of Swaraj when it was launched. In fact, we had the founder of Hafter when they had just launched saying this such a good idea to relaunch it. But I don't think news was are the same are different side of the same coin.


So I'd started off with promise and many of the people that have told me how they have been disillusioned with what it has become.


So while ideologically very different, I still I still do hope that a news platform gives accurate news. Opinion can be anything. And in the last few months, in fact, out of the way that we have carried pieces on it, we have Swaraj has put out three outright fake news like one is that in the world, Hubach, the Muslim character, was sent to a Hindu character. Then they put out some other fake news. So I'm not sure they spend money.


Well, they don't really care about the accuracy of the reporting. While we definitely would like, you know, large a wide variety of opinions, I don't think facts should be compromised based on your ideology. So on that, I think Suraj has not lived up to the promise that it started off with, which is why I think Bildad is such a huge Hindu following in the country, that journalism is not something I respect anymore, while J'accuse to be a friend.


I think they have completely and I think this I think of the Hindu right. Unless you go full retard, you will not be accepted. And that's what they've done.


Their news are more into the your campaign mode. Yeah, it's they don't they don't need that. So anyway, I don't that's fine. You should spend the money as you deem fit.


But as a news professional, I just thought I should just mention, in fact, I mean, if you want conservative voices, I think mainstream media and outlets have better conservative voices on issues. But then that doesn't even have I mean, it doesn't even have legitimate conservative voices.


What you have to defeat the model.


I do think we are saying to keep news free, we should support in the print media outfits no matter where they're from, but they should at least give accurate news. That's the only thing.


So, OK, let's just move on quickly. I'll just go on to who is Kamala Harris? Well, she is a second generation American. Her mother was Tamil and her father was Jamaican. Apparently, her mother brought her up as a single mother, a single parent. And The L.A. Times wrote in October twenty nineteen that she seldom delves into her Indian heritage, reflecting a broader reticence to share personal stories beyond a handful of well-worn anecdotes.


And if you see some of her videos that have come up now, it's all about her mother.


My mother was a woman of color. So while she's talking a lot about her mother, who was Indian, she's not on board that much. What a father who is Jamaican. And many of the women from the Hindu right in India are like Jagi, like Maneesha said, are warning Indians from celebrating her because she cares about human rights, Kashmiri lives and all that things which we don't like to care about.


So that's the context. So her daughter has to leave. He's with us only other ten, fifteen minutes afterwards.


What do you make of her from India point of view and how do you think will this confuse the Trump Modi lovers and not in New Jersey, etc.?


No, no. I mean, certainly there is a startling degree of split personality and a lot of binaries already. There are a lot of people who are looking for someone more complex, but that will be in India. I mean, if he doesn't win out what it is very common in the U.S. in that context, there is also a strong support among the Indians and what is happening. But most people rely on them now and the definition of Indian, it is becoming defined by what is a Muslim interest.


In that sense, the people who we to be compatible with, one, disagreed on everything involving children in which this has always been restricted. In that sense, what we're looking at is really one of those people who are using an identity for university. We're not actually acting against of the panel.


Your views on this. And before we move on, I know we have a very large number of NRI subscribers, and I've met many of you guys and I've come for the conferences. In New York and Boston, the regrade, if some of you send us pieces that we can carry on this because, you know, I'm sure you guys would have an opinion on this. You guys discuss the Hindu right and its representation. Then the U.S. while she talks a lot more about her mother than her father.


Yet the identity that is politically significant for the Democrats is her father's ancestry and not her mother's, because that is a bigger vote. But, Meraj, what what what do you make of Kamala Harris?


I mean, AZO as a person, as a leader. I mean, she has just made history. Right. So to reduce her to this base identity, I mean, this is the problem with identity politics, to reduce her an accomplished woman like her, which just made history to whether she is Indian or not, is like really serve or not and doing a disservice to her.


But that said, the discussion should be about what she brings to the table and what she brings to the table is her record as attorney general of the state of California, as a senator. And from what I have read, obviously, I can only say from what I read, her record in California is atrocious.


I mean, she went after black families, locked them up. She even mulled a proposal to lock parents up if their children skipped school.


She locked up people for doing like soft drugs, like marijuana and stuff while she was doing the drugs herself. And that was like she was taking to cleaners during one of the primary debates by Tulsi Gabbard for that. Hmm. What does she bring to the table? And she is like a fervent supporter of the Zionists, the Israelis and everybody else. She spoke on something about Kashmir, but she hasn't spoken something about that.


Her health care plan when she the initial health care plan, she supported the Bernie Sanders health care plan. Then she moved away from that, her support for the Wall Street.


Those are the things that materially affect you, not just in America.


I mean, because I mean, for good or bad, what happens there affects all of us. So that is the things you should be concentrating on and debating. Yeah.


In fact, that's what I it is because, I mean, from what I have seen about and from what I read, I mean, it doesn't look like even if he becomes president, he'll survive the entire dome and all his men are not physically he's mentally like he seems to be like really, really gone.


And this that stop Trump. Yes.


No, I mean, he's really seems like he has some distinct issues, is flawed or whatever, and this person will really be like running the administration.


So in fact, some of the commentary did say that she was brought on to appease the center and center right world peace, and she's not from the left faction of the Democratic Party.


So her job is actually to appeal to the slightly right or center right voices. And but, yeah, I agree, at least for the Democrats, Joe Biden has been so uninspiring.


So maybe some ladies with at least will bring some vigor into the campaign or whatever it is, because Democrats were like and also the fact is Biden wins.


I mean, she could be the next presidential candidate, right? Yeah. And that's what and this reflects I mean, a change in politics, change, you know, in America that an Indian born and not not origin Indian origin, Latos, any more comments on this?


And then you can give us your recommendations and carry on. I know you have a busy day ahead of you.


Not sort of my point of some commentary from an American point of view of what the new polls point. An origin had shifted considerably from the past. We look at any and the in Washington as a candidate, I mean, I think. Yes. In the totality of voting or do we find problems? But it must look in the sense that American politics in that she's every morning except the main character than almost anybody else. And let me just say that and I think that is what we are all unfortunately, there are no absolute choices of anything.


And she doesn't even know what to do with them even will be right.


And before you carry on, can you give us your recommendations for the week?


Look, I have one of those three recommendations, which is the one making overcoming some difficulty from politics to dismantle some of the best deal making in science, mathematics, biology and doing that. And I think coming back very, very strongly. It is a B is the one based on the mathematics happening now. There is information, but in a way that is more efficient. I think it's a great way to come in so many different issues. Just every Gingrich only mentioned one of our own reporters have done it in July.


And the action is. And know for some of the things which was to do with it, you don't need it or so this girl who was charged with if this was in maybe just in the courts and then the case is going to be drawn up and that it will get on her. But this is going to be part of the reason that, you know, maybe it will be done on some of these videos on that on one that actually got under way.


Right. Maybe in a slightly different way. And by some thought she might some which is she is on her own from Boston, if I'm not mistaken, on growing up in and going to school in the Knight Commission, some. How that has gotten off the ropes, the capitalism of envy, the continuation of the culture of the people who were starting their own to launch to various other communities the proselytizing space, the realisation of how much damage this kind of thing the museum has done to communities.


They want them to have no interest in me. And it's not a small population. They don't have a space. We have a language on their own, which is important because of these groups and that this is moving and hopefully some kind of experience of going back and actually getting home. That their culture is backwards isn't noxious because this is what have see.


Okay, thanks for those. She'll have a good week. Good luck with your reporters and continue her fantastic reportage. Those of our subscribers who want to support independent media may also recommend Caravan magazine to check it out and see you next time. Now for this appearance, you will be paid. So it's not an retrospective. It's not an easy judgment. Thanks Alto's.


But and I repeat, we have a really cool subject who subset, which is a Jasmyn soap, which is white and orange soap, which is as close to saffron as a soap gets. And we have a green soap. I think it's a lemongrass or soap. So it's a beautiful package with the supposedly like soap set only for our guests and subscribers for the month of Yogyakarta Independence Month.


And we have a lot of other really cool much coming out and you shall see it all out in style and social media accounts handles. So, yeah, but I repeat, it is only going to be available to subscribers and we will tell you how it will be available. Do check out our social media handles for that. Now, Manisha, you want to talk about the equal rights of the Hindu?


Probably worried about it. I think I'm just happy that it's happened. Nothing to talk about.


It's a great progressive judgment. And to apply it retrospectively is excellent. All women claim your land back, right?


To claim it back. And if someone else will leave me some land, feel free because I don't own any land or home.


Or is it the only assets I have a New Zealander shares with Citibank, Punjabi, all Punjabis I know are involved in a court case on land with fighting with family.


No, I, I am not all all I know are involved. And twenty twenty years legal battle with your family over this land that land. So you clearly really know.


I think like all good Punjabis went to either Toronto and left Birmingham so always out another my dad joined the army and then he didn't. So a property bubble I was given to some cyberpower trust or something or the other side.


So I have no idea. So I have no no property. So please make news only valuable.


So I have a home to buy when I'm retired and I'm not giving up yet.


But I'd like to talk about Pranab Mukherjee condition and journalists wanting to break news even while they belowground about other stuff.


Are you being coy? It's not journalists. This is Rajdeep. OK, we'll come to that. And of course we have to discuss a period leave. But before that there is this email from Karthik Ponnuru Limits.


I've been a long time subscriber's in 2015 and I've always loved your work, especially after has had a huge impact on my thought process after being a regular listener, our period of time, so much so that I instinctively picked up on the nomination. I would say when they react to and make sense of any contemporary issue. I thought of writing to you guys many times in the past about topics that caught my interest. But the letters that you read enough of such high quality that I felt insecurity.


They come on, Karthik, surely not. I'm currently writing after listening to Episode two, etc., but doesn't compare the public reaction in 1992 versus 20/20 and used it as a yardstick to judge how far we've come or gone in terms of being secular nation.


What I generally agree with most of the points the panel discussed and shared, the fear of danger posed by communal politics. On the current dispensation, I would like to draw an important distinction that in 1992 people were reacting on the act of destruction of a Masjid, while in 2020 it's the construction of a ram temple. I don't think we. And draw any broad conclusion based on the public celebration, my limited point is given it's been 30 years since the demolition and as I've been honored, rightly pointed out, it's totally reasonable for the general population to wish for under the birthplace of.


I don't think a vast majority of people are celebrating Hindoo solution, nor necessarily condoning it when they cheerfully watch the movie Pooja. I feel drawing such premature conclusions may be dangerous because if that becomes a general consensus, no opposition party will seriously attempt to challenge the criminalization of discourse in India. It's too early for anybody to concede any defeat or secularism, and Modi himself often couches his controversial political decisions in a liberal idiom, for example, banning the Lakers, addressing women's rights issue, abrogation of Article 370 as ensuring equal rights for gay citizens.


Hetero as I like to know the panel's view how much the BJP has increased support from 90 percent voter, 38 percent voter at national level between 2009 and 2019 is because of voters rightward ideological shift vs. Modi's personality as a self-made leader. I'd guess almost all of his incremental shedders. Modi's vote, and not only BJP, is OK. Also, the recent and Narcissa a nationwide protest indicates India hasn't really rejected secularism. The real crisis, I feel, is the dearth of political talent and parties claiming to be secular BJP for all its pitfalls as meritocratic.


Whether Narendra Modi can raise Reisinger can raise the ranks to become a supreme leader. As saw the recent interview. Karan Thapar Modi developed his phenomenal political skills over 45 years as a prosodic and as a grassroots organization man and finally came of a large state and gives him a unique and massive advantage. Finally, I feel you should have gotten unburden on this episode when you discussed an issue as historic as a temple to provide a counternarrative. Also wonder how the other island, which is Ranganathan, reacted to the temple event as a long time subscriber.


I remember he used to often say that the real justice would be to rebuild a mosque at the disputed site.


He said that I remember Madu and I think what? No, like what? He isn't saying those things that he's not sure. This is Karthik Kartika, right? He is not from the saying that these are. No, I'm not saying.


But just a couple of things. I, I agree with you on the meritocracy of the BJP as compared to others. I don't think there is any two ways on that, but I think it is. I mean, I get what you're saying, that people are celebrating today because they see it on temple and they are not necessarily the destruction of Babri Masjid.


But I think the the kind of things Yogi is saying, the kind of things Modi said, the dog whistles and also it is telling for new studios because, you know, as opposed to seven years ago that I thought news did not have that much of an impact on how people think now because of technology and the penetration of Internet and broadcast channels. It does have an impact, I think. I mean, the same reason that it's important to demolish those statues, you know, because the news narrative has kept certain social issues alive, because they are relevant, because certain communities are still being treated the way they are.


In fact, like the murder of George Floyd that set off this whole chain of events. Therefore, they the the security cameras released whatever the camera what what the footage, footage, footage was raised.


It, again, became a lead story because news has to give context the concepts of Parana to about privacy. Destruction. Yeah, obsidian construction. Go celebrate. The two are not connected. Of course they are connected.


And if news does not do that, and I think that is very, very problematic.


In fact, what on the News of the World reset what Balanoff said in an outlet and Salazar Palladio Monday Iraqi Mazid. But I have a copy of Mandarin so he can be erased.


He beats me. There was something else also that happened.


But what I do agree with you, Karthick, is that I think this whole thing that secularism has been defeated and all that that I agree with, which is why I completely disagree with you.


Again, the other piece which I called Shadowrun someone who's actually on question that I'll talk about that as well.


But just on one thing, I mean, whether secularism has been defeated or not, these are lofty things to say. But change is these, you know, these little shifting of groundlessly. There's a little bit of, you know, everyone saying, okay, we'll get demolished. No one forget about it. Now, you say this. I mean, these are the things that keep happening that then lead to a point where you suddenly find yourself in a country that you know doesn't hold.


And I don't see anybody I mean, find a spectacular 65 years of rigorous going through rigorous training and all. But but I mean, I will not buy, you know, a leader who is who is rising in his career through rhetoric's through the old kind of propaganda. True. True. False news. Fake news also. So I don't know.


I also, like Monisha said, it doesn't happen overnight. Like the revolution, for example. The destruction didn't happen in 1992. The whole thing started in 1949 when the items were smuggled in, like the Supreme Court said from there to what Nehru did, what gobind wallop, what was his name? The first minister, the chief minister of going well above. Been of what he did then, of what the bureaucracy did, then what Indira Gandhi did, Rajiv Gandhi did, nursing crowded.


So this was a whole process. It didn't happen overnight from the smuggling of diamonds to the opening of the locks to the destruction and to the buildings around them.


And it ran counter it ran parallel to another project, which I have been saying again and again was this experiment of making India into a democratic country, a secular democratic republic. That experiment went parallel. And as it degenerated, that experiment started to feel this happened. The space quickened. Modi only sort of completed a project that had started right then.


So what happened? So that, of course, I mean, there's no other way but reconciliation in this because so much had happened. But what happened afterwards was triumphalism. It was one religion saying that, you know, this is how it's going to be this. And I mean, it wasn't it wasn't hand extended to sort of sort out an issue. Yeah.


So we tend to see these things as little linear lines, linear and other things like Nehru, this great champion of secularism. Recently, as you know, Rani, the historian, he unearthed these letters between Nehru and shake up the lie about the accession of Kashmir.


At one point, he found was the person they sent to persuade the Margiris to accede to India. Was Artosis chief at the time, Gul Volker. And the the his argument to the king was not political or secularising.


He said, you are Hindu, we are Hindu. You'll be more safe with us.


Although on that I think politicians use any trick in the trade to say, for example, even Abe Lincoln for him to cancel slavery, of internalized what kind of what slavery was, was not all the arguments he used to sway the vote in his favor.


We're not all moral arguments. There were some economic, some strategic, some give and take. But as far as the project is concerned, Karthick, I think I would not draw the two separately. I think there is a continuum, but I do get a lot of people who today you know why people like Robert Saldaña, Sajida Tambra. Now I understand the news cycle was very young, but I'm sure maybe 10, 15 years younger than me. But if he is a prime time journalist, he should have seen or read the magazines for the company that he works for.


Sajida Tambra is is a horrendous excuse for a religious person, let alone for a human being. She was seen as one of the most virulent and hateful voices you Google. You go to YouTube and Lusardi to hear her speeches.


She was sitting in his studio bellowing, John, about this Parvanov search. So you can say that people don't know. They are just happy that, you know, someone who they really respect and their Lord Pleasant made, but who is the person who is representing that happiness? And that is dangerous. You know, one can say goodbye. Maybe, you know, maybe maybe there is some. I don't know some. That's a good analogy. I got Bisleri gurudwara this article.


Very good. But imagine if studios are really telling us why it's a wonderful thing.


They are not the merchants of interest. So that that who are the carriers of this message.


And that is what I think news is completely failed. I generally think people like Saldaña Unbigoted that they maybe they actually said buffoons. They don't even know who she is. They probably have not read anything or. Yeah, but they you know, this is like Germans said.


Take, for example, MacDiarmid for the last even the so-called liberal and secular journalists have celebrated the rise of Modi as though, like the strength of Indian democracy, there was this man who was a Jibla who rose up.


It's a failure of Indian democracy. The whole idea of democratic institutions is to prevent a person like this. And who is this person? He is the person who organized the radiographer Advani. Then he came to Gujarat. He oversaw a massacre. He should not have been chief minister after that.


But he is a liberal principle. And if there's no continuity in that, then yes, the institutions are supposed to be built to prevent such a person. If those if he still became the prime minister of the country, that means those institutions failed, that that democratic ideal failed. It's not a strength of democracy. It's its weakness. It's a failure.


It's a matter of fact, when I think when the 2002 massacre happened, Vajpayee wanted him to take the moral responsibility and that famous press conference.


And I said, no, hard won. He said, no, no, I was sitting next to it.


And look what Advani got, uh, for defending limit it. Rifka and Advani, of course, is a super tragic character, but maybe not really, but at least he did he did have his power.


I think this is what happens when you get old because you have physically so obviously weak and you are at the far end, then one kind of has sympathy for you, which is fair enough.


I think human nature, we shouldn't lose our humanity in us, but I think one can say that he too. All to hate, but I would not give a free pass for what that person did when he was at his crime. I think that is what makes a big difference and what he did.


We are still reaping the consequences of exactly so many. Karthick, thank you for that email. Before we move on to the whole period live thing that Zomato has kicked off to brief bits of news at al-Haideri died. He's a boy journalist. And the only reason I really bring this up, you know, there's not that much to discuss. But he's General Musharraf's, you know, on YouTube. You can see much of his book, which is very inspiring to one of his lines, really came back during the protest season because he kebab guy Hindustani.


And he says that really became a rallying cry for a lot of protests.


In fact, is what it sounds like wasn't even a good idea to start the magazine toadie Sabetha, who has Shamal Yaha Kim, is he a good, bad guy? And astoundingly. So he's done that, he's a very nice song for a film called Meenakshi via Memphis in Yiddish. Oh, you wrote that?


Yeah, that's my song. Really nice. But I stuck when he died. What was playing on television screen was Takalani dancing collegiately. I made it like they were hit by Metal BIanche Collegiate Pool Irey and then this, you know, the choreography, the beginning. I was like, fuck man. You know, this guy has done out of the how much good work in his life. He's dead and you're showing him dancing to one of the most songs are like what the fuck.


You know, the cultural aspiration of the Indian middle class was like ago.


You couldn't get any politics. And they should the last you know, like she does this these jumps. And because most of these choreographers have, like, ripped off Paula Abdul or something that didn't look very fit. They're like, she'll jump and she lands with the splits.


Not I'm not fit enough to do a split.


She can just about go like seventy degrees. That's it. That's that's part of the flexibility. So she goes there and this is very awkward grizzlies. She sits on the cups. So I'm like right in the eye.


Why would you do this to the guy and songs of mine.


Actually all songs are good are the favorite and all this funny different stuff like a lot of her. I mean you could have played some with Machado's.


Yeah, but what relevance that plays against the current mood.


OK, so now what matter to.


So Dmytro has instituted a ten day period for women, which sparked off a lot of controversy on Twitter and especially by women.


I haven't seen so many women disagree with women in a long time on Twitter leading just just pointing out, I know you would disagree with me and I may get some other male for trying to be snarky.


I'm not being snarky. I'm saying if one wants to be in the Super Bowl cage of of gender fluidity period for all menstruating people.


Yes, I only told you this. You're throwing back my. He's not. Well, guys, just don't we don't leave you medically explained. Get up and then go back at me. I was just saying I was like, you know, this is a classic example of mansplaining.


Oh, my God, I'm such a man. So it just made you look moody. Let me tell you, in case you've forgotten, this is not an mansplaining. This is intellectual property theft.


Let me what is it? I love that New Yorker cartoon where this man and woman are sitting on a date and the man said the woman and the man says, let me interrupt your expertise with my confidence. Yeah, that's classic. But anyway. Yeah, so that got a lot of people upset. And I think Backordered led the charge on this and she got quite attacked also that she she said that, you know, this is biological determinism and you can't we don't want our period to come in the way of doing our work.


And you want to because then we want to join in Fantino. And I think it's bullshit. Firstly, I think it's a private company. So I think that would have been some, you know, decision making behind this. They would have looked at this is I don't think private companies just want to be walking, just institute rules like this. And it's ten days. It doesn't even take into account the fact that women menstruate every month. What about the other two months?


Suddenly your penis is magically supposed to disappear. But anyway, it's just ended. I think I think it's great because I think there hasn't been enough research in this to really know the extent of pain and the percentage of women that go through debilitating pain during that period. I suspect they may be a lot of women, but we're just not. And I think a lot of women in the workforce are probably already taking leave.


But not seeing that it's repeated, it's probably, you know, I'm upset, stomach upset or whatever.


So I think there should be enough research into this really new. I know that a lot of women suffer. I mean, it's not just cramps for a lot of women. It's very debilitating, coupled with other symptoms like vomiting also at times. In fact, one of the things that I read yesterday was that we had instituted this in 1992. We are giving two period leave to women in government services. So I think it's super progressive. I don't think I don't think people will misuse it and also misuse it will find many other ways to misuse other things is misusing leave.


And I think that for something that is not our fault, it's a biological thing that women go through every month. And also the pain factor looking at it is if it can be as debilitating, it can be. I think giving one day leave a month is really OK. And it's actually deserved.


It is quite possible. Now, as a reporter, I mean, that comes to my mind. I mean, I always look at, you know, all these multinationals with suspicion, how many female employees they have, how much money do they have?


So and so the progressive this is something which is because I don't see any more research on this.


I think that is a progressive element in the whole shitstorm that also this kicked up was that, you know, Barclays said, you know, I've been to Cardiff. We don't need this. Thank you. This is so we may not need it, but maybe her report does.


Yeah, but you know how I think it was a lot of posturing happening. And I think that's the problem with. Social media, there's a lot of posturing that happened on social media, which is why I think the discourse around secularism, the discourse around feminism, the discourse around, you know, anything on social media is the worst it's the lowest form of the discourse. And it's a pity that that's what people want to get sucked into. While I agree that it's very progressive and I've met as many unshakably disagreed with me and we had this discussion on Hafter on maternity leave, and I said, now that is paternity leave.


This will benefit women netnet, but this will netnet, not benefit women, because the market does not work on what is progressive or modularized.


Attic's people hire based on who they can get most productivity out of, and one can say that you can be unproductive while being in office. I mean, these, again, are very childish level conditions. When one says this one is assuming that everybody you've hired is the rational. And I know one day a month is not a big deal, but any distinction in leaves or productive days will have an impact. And I think that's basic economic logic. It will incentivize hiring.


Those would be seen as less productive. It is not my morality or ethics. And I'm just telling you, this is how markets work, forces labor works.


But that has to change. And that and that has changed progressively when it comes to tell me where the I mean, there have been many progressive laws instituted for women to have an opportunity leave the market.


I mean, so you shouldn't hire women because they can get pregnant and we have to give them a don't.


But that is what I said. That is a paternity leave also. Yeah, but this country has paternity. I know. But that is why in those countries there will be a disincentive.


But there are a lot of noble in the beginning when maternity leave, there wasn't what the market did kind of accept the fact that did not know what you mean by that logic, but in assuming that the women will be less productive because they are getting more leave is also wrong thought and why? I don't think I think I mean, the productivity is not linked, you know, that we there.


But that's what I'm saying. Of course, it's not that you can't save someone who takes less leave is more productive. I'm saying when you hire one does not. But not hiring on the basis of I don't know you. I'm hiring on the basis it's a digit, it's a metric.


It's not a person you hire. You hire a CV. Let's be clear. Yeah.


No, see, you are saying what the reality is. Fine. Granted, there will be a lot of people who will discriminate because of this, but that has to change. But I'm not saying you know what I mean. It's kind of advanced the whole point of moments like this.


It militates against this market. Logic origins are the same thing happened when the eight hour workweek was instituted. Same thing with five weeks. Now, in fact, there's research and some people have started the four day week and there's research that they're more productive, they're more balanced lives.


But that's see that that's a different thing. That's that's a false equivalence. I'm not saying that won't work. We're I'm saying it's for the same task. You have two groups. You're talking, you know, basic arithmetic of productivity for the whole for the whole set. I'm talking sets and subsets. Who normally sets in subsets. I think assuming that people will change is like capitalism, assuming people won't be greedy or communism, assuming everybody has the same need and the same amount to contribute to what I think this is wishful thinking.


And I don't you know, the capitalists who describe themselves as such from thinking that regulation or rather greed won't fuck up the market. I don't grudge the communists. Something kinky equals success. But Carrothers up same Hamilton simply. I won't grudge people thinking that this will not impact hiring. It will. We can be sure that we won't hit me.


But that has to just accept that, you know, he's already done this before the unions.


The same thing happened when the maternity leave was instituted. Right? That was the logic that women get pregnant, they won't be working. But that changed because people fought against it.


Yeah, people demanded these rights and paternity leave came.


Then they said there's equivalence and I won't make a difference, but it's just not true. It's very late saying that before that there wasn't I mean, there why not? Which is why there was a disincentive for women being hired.


I'm saying that they contribute. I did.


But that also changed. Some companies also realized that, no, this is not something that you can discriminate against and this is a legal right to maternity leave normalized.


It just will happen. And I think in this case, also, there will be an incremental change in existence. I mean, people will resist anything, but they will at least be something. And yet it's a biological thing.


You can't graduate one day to a woman for something that she has to go through. And for some for some women, it is really it can be, you know, a day on which those are not things that one can even debate about grudge.


I'm not even sure whether you can get you can't do that.


But you are getting I mean, the market is grudging support. And but anyway, all I'm saying is skeptical of the caliber of Inotera object ultimately leaves about Deborah Feyerick was counterproductive. If you think maternity leave incentivized companies from hiring women, you should check out the. It desensitizes companies from hiring women is paternity leave has equalized that. So now you know, whether I had a woman or man I will have to take paternity leave is less.


It's what it's what how many a month. And it depends on these standards. I think on some places it's it's majority leave is nine months. At least nine to 11 months maternity leave.


No, not really. What are you saying? It's three months.


I'm going by Europe, maybe then three in India.


I mean, depending I don't know what the Sakari wasn't it increased.


OK, that's called a sabbatical. But even if you did, paternity and maternity is a huge difference. So you still there's still an incentive to remain because he'd be gone for 10 days. You'll be gone for three months.


I mean, doesn't that also give like two months paternity leave? I mean, the paternity leave? The difference is very little for some companies.


And I think if a man says I want paternity, they'll just be like, oh, fancy people are coming. And then you you want to leave your kid home.


And any anyone else has anything to contribute to this discussion. You.


No, but I yeah. I mean, maybe since we have so many scientists and listening and maybe the research aspect of how how painful is it really for how many number of women would be interesting to know. I mean, what exactly is the biological?


Is there any metric to measure pain, by the way? I mean, it has to be debilitating. It has to be in a way that you cannot get.


I mean, granted, I'm not saying something you could respond to. You're an activist here. I'm saying generally it's scientific.


Like Scovel units measure the Jelena's of something, the general curiosity it does that.


I think that I mean, I'm sure there must be some metric of knowing, hmm, OK, we are I think that has just informed us that some research of what is more painful, getting kicked in the nuts are giving birth now, of course, to the Lebanon war.


If it's if it's just it wasn't easy.


What did I know? Where did this he says, really, I would not do that research.


As I say, the good of all, we don't know what the Border Patrol, corporate fat pigs all about that is going to kill to impregnate, got to get rid of them. But how can this research even be done? Like, what the fuck?


And nobody imagine them in the imagination these people have and the kind of work they're allowed to do.


I'm sure this is somewhere in Europe or somewhere. You know what? Because you are a responsible producer of a responsible show. So when you put these things are going to please make sure.


I know. I'm sure that is somewhere in the lake, somewhere in the West, because they get to even do this. I mean, it's tells you a lot about the kind of society they're so very proudly at.


It has shown me it's the European it's called the dollar raim. OK, OK. So there is something that is something that you can measure.


All right. Now, before I move on to some other wonderful meals that have come what many years ago was being coy about Pranab Mukherjee, who is very unwell. He's on, in fact, a ventilator. He's been diagnosed with covid and Rajdeep Sardesai this morning. I think it's somewhere thirty nine in the morning tweeted that I'll repeat the whatever in his dramatic style. Of course, Pranab daughter and son said hello, that's life. So kindly responsible news people don't.


And I is mostly found on Twitter giving gone on why journalism is going down the drain and why we must not please me, please Matt Suprabhātam.


Sure, whatever. What if he's a good natured barratry? Don't join the rat race. And then he wasn't there, but he apologized quite sincerely and said, I'm very sorry.


You know, this kind of excitement not this is the market logic. You know, I'm just saying that Rajdeep spent so much of his time bellowing young and giving everybody advice on journalism, which I take a rural villa to listen to because most of the rest is just shit. This is what I'm saying. Market logic determines actions, not your well-meaning attitudes. Your metric for success is Twitter followers, Twitter followers. Gambi, who breaks news first. Your metric for success is who watches you, who watch you.


Depending on who breaks news breaks, it might critically.


That sets up a condition reflex of wanting to be the first, even if it's on the most accurate, because the metric that is rewarded by the market is speed, because that rewards how many people watch you. So I have no strategy for years. He's not a bad guy. He may be a really boring and full of himself way past his prime, but he's not a bad guy.


I don't know what's a bigger insult. I'd rather be a bad guy, you know, I'd rather be back than a boring idea. Follow me past my prime.


OK, but I don't. But that the thing is, this metric has been internalized by an entire generation of journalists that many braconnier.


I think the bigger the bigger blunder, the. Or what would happen on prime TV, prime primetime TV was his interview this week where he asked him to it.


I asked him, what about Saudi Arabia? Will you condemn Saudi Arabia also now that you are condemning majoritarianism?


And I think that you didn't explain why. I mean, that was a terrible interview. I think the next was removed from the playbook of the right when it comes to deaths.


So we categorical categorically, we told all the reporters it has to come from the hospital.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's sounds I mean, we don't have to, you know, because print print has the luxury of waiting for the next morning. You know, when she was in the hospital, I think three or four times some news channels declared a day before Saturday.


It's not a matter of luxury. I mean, I this why why this TV media is so shallow. Yeah. You know, when it comes to breaking. Because I know because bigging is the metric in us.


The trouble Patapsco top. He came rushing to me that plane Gresser playing repeatedly me. But I looked Hillsman to articulate me also confirm it. So I was just doing that. And then this. Now Starky you see your what is it. Who the hell. There was my news director. You they came he said Ramon propolis probably was standing. Ramon is not letting it happen again. So he said gee I mean yeah. Ramon multi-cap. Take your card with the manager of the SEC, but he bought Academical after five minutes.


It turned out to be a dummy exercise.


I mean, the airport I said they were just they were just running it.


What it will be the response in case there is an accident.


Accident then after that, perhaps in government. Cotliar Tidally Ghiberti Cuba academic exercise.


Guilty but but but the four five year Dubek journalist I if I could somehow make principal news, I volunteer. You can only report an unconfirmed deaths if you have committed the murder.


Did you kill him? If you haven't killed the person, you cannot tell us it's for this.


I mean I used to find it. So shall I come in.


This is also because I was that our news professionals, even in television who didn't feel the need to treat this. I'm sorry you didn't listen. You guys in the ventilator, but you've decided to quit also. This is a TV commercial. This is the TV model. I mean, you don't have anything meaningful to say. So if you get this kind of news, you can run with it the whole day. They do not do anything else. Otherwise you are to fill that twenty four seven time with something else.


Will Joy, I want to ask you in Kashmir and one of our subscribers wrote that we would like on and also on the Rumsen Boomi discussions with me next week and on Wednesday we'll will discuss that again because both Meraj and Unadorned in town for the most important part of world history that was made last week. When you saying that you have to fill their time, you know, bhajans and all that, some reporters and some Novica saying some rather pardoel. Lip-Sync So was all this being beamed in Kashmir?


Yeah, on TV. But I don't think people pay much attention. They don't watch, you know, I mean, there was a time, but I mean, see, that's the thing, not the distance Kashmiris have from India. And this is the this is a Muslim issue, but it's an Indian Muslim issue as such. So they don't have Elka's Indian Muslims that you didn't do much.


So so you you get to stay over there. Yeah. Yeah. But no Internet. No Internet.


OK, look at this images. I'm Shubham Jaballah. Do you have the panel? I'm writing this letter in response to the one from the last half where a subscriber mentioned she had her name butchered her entire childhood. And they say the safety, some debate. I spent the first 17 years of my life in Chennai and being a Punjabi whose name is Shubham Shubham, his gift to us in a city when NPR senior had ever heard of such a name led my name to a budget for most of my childhood, trying to decipher who was making fun of me and why they did.


It was a massive waste of Headspaces. Obviously I was affected by this growing abetters. But this does not mean I start calling all those people insensitive, racist, etc.. I just dusted my shoulders off and moved on.


You have been a man's best friend. Congratulations.


This, among a million other experiences, makes me who I am to cardo the minds of young adults and to protect them from the universe under the garb of mental health is just going to create a generation of grown men and women who cannot deal with anything outside their world view. This entire safety debate reminds me of a beautiful quote, quote, Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men and weak men create hard times.


By my God, g my. I think about my visit in this letter.


So this is Shubham Jaballah. So thank you so much for your mail and thank you for a subscription.


Actually, about that.


There's a saying attributed to the prophet who tells his followers, I don't fear you so much in poverty than I fed you when you are. Yes, they said, you want to see the character man, give him power. Oh, God. So you're saying I'm doing some angle thing.


But by the way, both of you are giggling. You also got a lot of flack, although I got most of it not for being insensitive to this whole mispronouncing names.


And you also didn't read it. So it didn't happen.


You. Well, I read it, but you were not paying attention. He has an excuse. He wasn't here.




But I last week I saw Yogesh says hi and I love that recently I've binge watch. All the interviews are abruptly people change their political standpoints. After the commencement of Modie 1.0 on Ranganathan contributing I turned into a troll is now associated OP India comment on this and also your status quo with these people. Secondly, whenever a new uncertainty becomes the name of the person, along with the titles written in comic sense, there might be disputes about Ramsland Women BARBREE.


But one thing we can all agree on is common sense. The terrible font.


Yes, I know you are using that since the past few episodes have been and is getting a lot of flak for his views on, say, FDM. Safety was an American issue more than it is Indian. So is Black Lives Matter that inot activists of all Indians awakens to these issues while they remain dormant when it comes to issues like casteism, mob lynchings, majoritarianism, etc., then we ought to think about that. Please don't dodge these questions. So, Yogesh, on the first thing comics and I don't think it's that bad, but I don't know.


I don't know if I chose that font will figure out to produce it.


I know that is our editors. Oh, it's an old inherited. OK, we'll figure it out.


Maybe we should change it. A second thing on safety then. You're right, it's more relevant in America. But why I mentioned it is because you confront it here. Also, I confronted among especially Maneesha, you, although what the millennial, millennial, millennial, what you call the ones who are like in their early twenties right now generally.


So I see a lot of that in GenZE. And the only reason I reacted to that is because you confront it in your daily lives. Gen Z has a very heightened idea of their relevance in the world, a very heightened idea of their privileges. Some of them are just in their head, which is why I think it's something to comment on and the certainty that they have of rights and wrongs and things that are great. Looking at everything as a mathematical theorem, I think this comes from having grown up on screens of social media where every opinion is as important as the other.


Some of you may think that this is a nasty thing to say and I'm being insensitive, but I think it is something that is true and a little bit of humility is good. When I joined Newstrike, I did not immediately think that my opinion was as as important as Mathew's or Albornoz of any of the other senior reporters or transapical years of the agenda. The agenda or knuckledusters reminds me of an anecdote.


So my teacher, my friend was able to listen back in the day one young kid who had just joined University Journalism School, so he came to him. I want to intern back in training at Express office, said, okay, fine, he said.


So I want to start by writing a piece about writing how Kashmir and Palestine is like linked in everything. So have you read up on this? He said I could write a piece, but first, hold on to that. Just give me a story about the trains in Old Town.


Yeah. When you say you have anything to say. Oh, no, I think nothing. OK, so also you asked equation between me and people like and then there's no equation as such. We haven't spoken in years and I don't miss anyone.


OK, then there's an email from TWIC. He says, Hi, many thanks for the amazing podcast you put together. But not to mention again that the others are taking the print as an example of the kind of shallow analysis that engages in. So there's a laughing emoji. While I have found again, this critique of atheism, as well as his aversion to leftist ideology, will be shallow, I didn't find much of anything in the recent article that can be analyzed to be shallow or otherwise.


There is only one paragraph in the article which actually engaged the question of how and why secularism failed in India. Then you've gone on and quoted the whole paragraph. Today, we must recognize that secularism was defeated because of its custodian's refused to engage in the battle of ideas secular, not defeated, because secular elite talked down to its critics in English, etc., etc.. I do agree that one of the major reasons secularism was defeated was a combination of the elitist image of secularism and the anti secular appeasement of minorities.


However, it seemed quite dubious, a claim that secularism could have strengthened itself if it had spoken the language of our religion. Given that this claim was supposed to be the central thesis of this article, I expected Uganda to actually present an argument in favor of it rather than dropping it as a single line. Towards the end of the article, I ended up with another four to this utter lack of actual content as the shallowness of the analysis was that anything of substance of the article is which which was shallow.


And then he gets outside the topic of secularism I usually find organismic inspiring and in the right direction. If you could refer to other places where his analysis is flawed. Darwiche, thanks for subscription. First of all, thank you for your support.


Well, I'll tell you what, what I find, what I found problematic and shallow. You can call a child, you can call it lazy is. How it starts, a future historian might March five, August 2010 is the day secularism died in India. I think there is a tendency of a lot of commentators. In fact, I was by chance reading a few articles last week, which I had saved to send to my friends after Lehman, that capitalism has changed as we know it.


Capitalism is dead. I was like Tinkerbelle, all these articles because they'll get clicks, but it's not dead. And clearly Wall Street came back stronger than anything else when a few of these Right-Wing Parties won some seats and some governments in the South in Europe went after Trump for another two three elections also continued on all sides, saying that Sinja liberals Lillie's can go to hell.


Lillie's Kottayam, Khartum, Hoga.


Now it's the rightward shift of the whole world within I think Polearm their daughters Hungar email Arbon and in Poland is likely you know left Liberal Party one McCrohan one you know.


So I think there is a tendency that every now and then this is the end of this. The Queen of this was the thing who had said this is the end of a civil round in five articles which is driven by index was gone. Find someone else. But you have said, as I said, a.. This is the death knell. His shadow politics is finished. He came back, he won again, or this is the death knell. Now, the rebellion on came again.


So I think that is a kind of shallow analysis. I think this indulges in it. It takes a position which is not a meek drop moment. That is not the world we live in. It keeps evolving and changing. Secondly, when he said that the elite refused to engage in secularism, I mean, I'll give an example and I give this example in a panel recently, filmmaker Marc Anthony, it had concluded from three sons going into the same father like excitement scientifically about Jawaharlal Nehru scientific temperament speech.


But it was a secular symbolism, symbolism. Pop culture was full of this. He has just made a claim. When I grew up, this that's the Shara'a was the most important Feria in Dehradun, and they had a normal abuilding, which is the Muslim area during this era, even in Amela building used to be dressed up. What do you want them to do, burn themselves? There was no lack of no one is laughing at anyone's religion or anything.


I mean, I think in pop culture, in daily occurrences, and I don't think religiosity or anyone's religion was attacked. I think the reasons for the rise of this are way more complex. They are economic reasons, very important economic reasons. There are reasons of how information has been weaponized in ways that it hadn't been earlier. What do you there has done has just pandered to click bait. So when you say that the elite refuse to engage with religion, give us how you've just said that.


Like not one link he has said.


Is this fashionable now to say, I mean, blame liberals only for lack of I mean, of course, there were some issues, but there's a bigger issue of the rise would be so he says was defeated because the secular elite talked down to its critics in English, not defeated because it disavowed the languages, because it failed to integrate the language of traditions, because it refused to learn to speak the language of religion. What are you talking about? I mean, tell us, how did that happen when you fail to understand?


In any case, I haven't read the whole article, but even this paragraph is full of like, I don't know what is minorities.


Erm just make a claim on the other people defence.


As I said, this is a disgrace for always seem to give. You must not accept minorities and appeasing minorities.


So I mean you can say that we must not accept something like the Charboneau case being overturned like this. And you should also say we shall not accept the Supreme Court saying that all this was very wrong. It happened.


But you know. But exactly. You can't just make a claim without saying that this is why this claim is accurate or true.


So that's why I thought it was just a historical processes one. I mean, secularism doesn't end on one day. Another thing is these historical processes are way more complex than this thing. Somebody said something in English. It doesn't work like that.


And the Indian Republic came into being in 1947, Odyssey's was formed in nineteen twenty five. They have been working for much longer.


So that project is unclear. Exactly. And the thing is that, you know, I think again, that has a heart in the right place, I think. And I think he's a sweet guy. And I'm telling you this from also having been with him on his campaign trail back then, you know, that video of his that went viral when in the company, Majida Saleem Bullethead. Hey, I'm Saleem's Salimata because he was campaigning in New that's a Muslim dominated Uganda.


It has a tendency of wanting to please whichever audience at that time he wants to please. Look, if you truly believed in what he believed, he said, my name is Uganda, rather, vote for me if you believe I'm anybody should win the seat from here. Not my name is Salim. I'm of Muslim Rivai. I've seen him say this on stage. He does this kind of pandering things that he thinks that everyone does it, everyone doesn't.


The rest of the world, in even the smallest of the biggest cities, the Qarabag celebrated doomed Nomsa religiosity McElhenney have November. I don't know how to school. Even the most elite schools had. Do these things, and no one was criticizing them. None of that the fucking balls to criticize it because you'd be thrown out. So this is just pandering to a digital audience, which he thinks will get clicks.


So that's why I just thought it was a bit shallow. Also, like I mean, you explain to us how the elite feel.


One of my recommendation is also that this matter has not he wasn't harsh, as harsh as you were calling him shallow superstar Barnawartha has written an article two days ago as a response to your book in the same space where he's saying that he loves doing the other.


The thing is, famous sociologist said that's so here.


Basically, he his argument is that nationalism has colonized both religion as well as secularism. So he is telling him that you're you are shallow, but he's not using that word, but he's saying it very nicely.


Anyone else have wants to weigh in on this before I move on to other males, this maelstrom. OK, I'm going to mispronounce it so you can send it my way. I think it's him. Ojha Milawa, Rabu Multivariable. Hi, folks. You need to stop giving lazy excuse and people point out something that you are doing incorrectly. This email is specifically about mispronouncing Tamilnadu.


The irony of me reading that Malanda. Oh dear God, you guys seriously didn't know how Tamilnadu, Kannada and Karnataka spelt and pronounced that spelled with vowel sounds. In the end, I don't understand this arrogance of people from other regions within India. When South Indians complain that they are repeatedly pronounced wrongly, don't even start comparing with names from foreign countries, for fuck's sake. Adding a vowel sound of a who is not a tongue twister short. It's not.


Sometimes you mispronounce it, he Majar. I think. I don't think it's something to.


Yeah, but look at the mean that we got from the other subscriber whose name was Shubham. So now I mean so 2010 the get North Indian names. Correct. A lot of the times. But that's fine. It's not maybe not for you to pronounce it, but I just I still. But if someone corrected I would correct.


I mean I would also in languages for example in Urdu you'll never call it and you'll still call it mudras.


You'll call Clinton. Also, I got an email from. Sorry, what's up. No, sorry. I think it was a Dem or something from someone who said that actually how you pronounce stuff. You're right about the specifics of Tamilnadu, Kannada or Karnataka. But you know, if I'm in a hurry talking and if I cannot, I mean, I don't think I've been racist or I mean, I just think it's a bit much that kind of overreaction.


And you're welcome to think it's not a bit much. But I think when but some of the early emails that had come that was talking about having to pronounce everything correctly, and if you don't, you're being lazy and this, that and the other who the natives are.


It is this this actually message said that your tongue develops messages also depending on what language you learn from an early age to certain muscles that are required for certain pronunciation and certain. And once you've learned the language at an early age, then a particular set of muscles get developed. So your pronunciation will come out that because it is a conditioned reflex like, you know, like driving a shoelace while talking to someone, someone who knows how to do it, but someone who's not learned it.


That's why you have accents, ulcerate. I mean, I've been reading and writing and speaking English for I think twenty years now, but the Kashmiri accent. Yes.


And also, I mean, if there's a word with Artur's in between it, I find it I find it very hard to pronounce it, even speak, announce it correctly with Joe and your Punjabi duniya like my father.


Pleasure to have you both here.


I know I have seen even Modi sarshar uh, what anybody oshodi.


I will still sing as a Muslim Latterman, although they can never be larger Muslim. Similarly, I decided which was much Sebold I would seek out the ideas of Liberty Morality's about.


I mean they told me I have so many friends, I mean from getting away from them who cannot speak a lot of words, not Indian, I mean Hindi words. They can't pronounce it correctly. And it's fine. I, I really take offense at people laughing at them were like not Indians.


They. Why don't you pronounce this correctly. They can't pronounce it. Yeah they can't. It's not the language.


I mean I'm just saying that just listen to any of Latin and I suppose this song with a large hole in it and tell me if you think that it's their profession they should learn.


But sure. If you correct if someone corrects me and says, hey, this is how you pronounce it, can you pronounce it like this? I will do it. Absolutely.


Which is why I have made in Canada, Tamilnadu, this thing right now when I learned this thing. It's not not it's not that you're getting confused dumber than my thumb here.


So Amygdale says so guys, they're not offending anyone, but maybe for a moment, consider if every battle is a. Worth fighting for, then you'll have very few battles for energy left for long time, subscriber and fan of all of you. I've been wanting to write for a long time. Maybe I'll write a bit more press for you, some other time and some gripes. I listen to all your podcasts, especially important and some of the I don't appreciate the value of the ads as long as there are times I want to avoid news at all cost.


A casual discussion on news is still OK to digest. New Sense is a great format.


I have been promoting Utzon's a lot, don't you?


And lastly, the reason which puts me right to find time to write this is I mean, and then suddenly coprophagia both travel gift twelvemonth worth of subscription to news the students program.


I'm so happy for my children. So this has already come in. Thank you so much, Amrik Praw. What a sweet guy.


Thank you. That is, if you have to do more than thank you.


OK, we have ways of even sending us hapkido like this thing, the SOAPnet. And there is a student subscription program that we have for those who can't afford to subscribe to news laundry. We have several people who contribute and they sponsor the subscription for many students. So if you want to do that, do write to us at contact at Neuzil only dot com. Then this email is from Osama. Hi, news read this unprecedently logged on led to an unprecedented ANEL interview.


Binge watch. My favorite one has to be up in. Devlin thought it show the crazy of an otherwise known journalist I also thoroughly enjoyed listen to. I don't sorry for all the complaints in the letters about the writing voice. I should point out that his upcoming ramas is a voice that the right wing should consider. Right? No more. I want to talk about two things.


Interview credibility in the Maneesha Srivastav, Madew, Rajat or even Madhu Gaja interview. There is a direct attack on the interviews credibility.


Who attacked her credibility that she was the guy who went after NDTV or money laundering case proved to be false, which was later on.


So just perhaps an attempt to avoid questions. But the comment section presented a different story. How do female journalists recover from and maintain a hard line of questioning? Also true, in stark contrast to the content of Lean interview, where he gets back at her second to the mental health and comedy in the light of Novik on Keita's learned judgments on depression. I wanted to shed the stand up and this one for the safety of listeners. There are links there which will we will put in the mail, which will be published, but also maybe we should have canceled times on the likes long ago.


Please get Sean Chakravarty write for you. Sorry. Sorry. It just is right for you again.


Oh yeah. It's been a while. This is new so I, I recovered quite fast. That fizzed.


She's a tough cookie. Yeah it's fine. She's a toughie.


She doesn't need the the in but I'm dying to do another interview darling. I just hope she gives me all the next supercontinent.


I don't think she lets Cardew and also Modula and intuitively and recently well done with Cardew.


Were you also that term, this even some arget. I was going to write to you after I heard your views on the holidays and after twenty six I got lazy and saw that sooner I needed a fine job of representing part of my view. I might have let the matter lie had I not heard the response to her. The crux of the response to her was to fixate on the concept of right versus duty. But that's not what elicited your original comment was.


It was this person who wanted day off on a particular day, the Michael Jordan of a team playing Game five. Actually, it was not a ho, it was a he. My best playing game five of the World Series. What do we know about how important that person's presence was on the day he or she asked for a holiday? Nothing that didn't stop you from viewing the request negatively. So it's suspicious to bring in examples of a journalist missing a big election day or Scottie Pippen sitting out a crucial game because they simply don't apply to the example at hand.


Here's what you've missed about the concept of holidays. Right. While it is a right, the only exception one can have of the employees that he or she aligns with their supervisor on on the way in, the why shouldn't matter to the employer, 90 percent of us. And it appears to be true, for the example being quoted, do not work in jobs or absence on any one day can have catastrophic consequences for the team. So why should anyone sit in judgment on whether someone wants to spend the day scratching one's nether regions on the couch in front of the TV or needs a day off for more genuine reason?


I've worked in India for nine years and worked outside of India for another night. I worked in Europe and employee's paradise and in the US, which has a well-earned reputation for not being an employee friendly society. I work for Indian managers in Europe and Indian managers in India. Nor have I encountered the Indian attitude to vacations. Employees and line managers in India geat vacation as some sort of favor being doled out to employees and something that requires a justification to take.


Only in India will you hear the concept of applying for leave and being rejected. And only in India will you hear about the phenomena of lying to take hold because there's a list of valid reasons for your grandmother. Wage slavery may be an overstatement, but the mob mentality of employees and bosses in India appear to be alive and well. I don't mean to hectoring, to changing our opinion. I just felt the arguments were really weak ground and perhaps lacking awareness.


Thank you for continuing to engage in criticism in good faith.


I did it. Thanks, Bridget, for the mail. Thank you for your subscription and your support and your disagreement. Anyone wants to admit it is my kind of a person before they were Greeks, but no seriously justification be like that.


I learned at my first job like it was you were looked at as a criminal if you took leave, you know, and that is that no one in the office ever to leave.


I have worked seven days a week for almost, I think, 10, 15 years. So I even I used to like, look at, you know, I mean, if somebody is asking for leave, I mean, these are fucking criminal. Why would I ever for seven careers that I would no longer since then, I hope you come back from what?


Even now? Sometimes I get irritated. Even those records are justified because some people are only fair and let us find.


But this whole thing of, you know, like feeling guilty for taking a leave is very real in India. A lot of people, at least in my first job, I used to really like feel guilty for and I would prepare for like for these chemical reasons on Gatti's insanity.


And the worst part is, like all the research in the world shows that this is bad for your persecuted for the mentally ill.


So as long as you're not always shooting the good of the. I thought I did it. I don't disagree with you on much of it. What I do disagree with you is that you that how can you judge people on what they do with their spare time? I think we all do that, and I don't think there's anything wrong in that. I think what you might want to add another layer is what do you judge them for? But that you judge them is an inevitable thing.


For example, a lot of my colleagues probably find it really bizarre when they when I'm interviewing them, but I ask them and I expect to tell them honestly that do you take substances?


You know, do you smoke up?


Do you like to indulge in activity, which is drugs or drugs? That's very good. Not drugs. And I ask whatever, Maneesha sometimes sitting there and she holds the head and she says it will go get me great again.


But now here's the thing. I mean, I may not reject someone on that. I judge people if they spend like, for example, this is something I ask when you're not working, what do you do? Do you have a passion? And this is a mantra that I have in life when I'm hiring. If they have a passion, that passion could be a sport.


It could be stamp collecting, music, playing, the guitar, nothing.


I like to chill out. I charge a person for that. We all judge people for various reasons.


Some may do it because the color of their skin. I'm not saying my parameters are perfect, but we all do it.


So I think that I don't ask people, you know, why do you want to take leave?


You know, if someone tells me today, I called me today. Hello, I can't come today, then I definitely ask why. Because we have a plan for the day or someone leaves. I mean, I don't know. I've got a lot of emails that I want to glean from this. Have I ever asked why? Why are you going?


I never ask that.


But yes, I would get irritated with someone if I should plan. And you're wrong when you say that. How important is now? That depends on professional profession. But in my profession, on the day of shoot, even a leitman is imperative. Without him, the shoot cannot go ahead.


Yeah, but what he's saying is that we don't know the circumstances of the leave when that person took it. Maybe that day wasn't a very heavy deal.


Yeah, but all I'm saying is that if that employer was a little frustrated and the pop culture is not, it permeates everything in our country. It's not just on this. The my pop culture is in families. My mom going out. Where are you going. I what it to you. I'm forty five years old.


I'm talking right now where the biggest thing I was when I was young, but now that's a fucking society we live in. Now what do you know the time you'll get late night vale ruby fucking. I'm forty six man. You know, let me.


I don't think, I don't think that is limited to know. Sure it's an Indian thing out.


Of course I do that all coming up. Can you imagine when I was a great many for children.


Which one doesn't know. But please I'll be sure to without your tracksuit.


OK, so I've got I see your dick. That's a logo on the right in the butt.


But I did it all in good faith and good humor.


Yeah. Point taken. But this about the Indian employer.


He's very right about this because I had been in jobs with I mean, even when you go on leave, the whole idea is to relax and but this thing is constantly in your mind.


Ya go round the dying about what you should feel guilty for, thinking that shouldn't have that much. But yeah, I have nothing more to add on this.


So if you have any comments, critique or suggestions for us right into ASAT contact at newsletter dot com, I repeat contact at news dot com. We have some fantastic merchandise and a subject I socket that will be available to. Drivers only will tell you how, but for the month of Independence Day, the this July independence, so that will be available with subscription, I think, six month subscription. You can check it out. The details will be on our social media and do writing to us.


But guys, just want to point out that July, you know, like, you know, the paywall is down. The half time is available to everybody. It's not only for people paying US subscribers. About 20 percent did not renew their subscription who have been renewing it regularly for this period when it's free. We are developing a website which is flawless so that you guys don't have a problem in accessing Hafter, in accessing our stuff. The reason we've taken this paywall down right now is so while we are making sure that our podcast player is completely in sync with our website, you guys don't have a problem in accessing Hafter.


So the purpose of taking down this paywall during this time, which will be another three, four weeks, is to make the website more efficient for you. If during this time so many of you don't subscribe and are subscriptions fall instead of rising in the month of July?


You know, I got a bit disappointed, so I do subscribe. They shouldn't drop off man to pay what is going to be back up in two or three weeks in any case. So, yeah, on that note, but thank you for your support.


I love all of your support. I think it is extremely important. I'm thrilled that so many news platforms are going down the subscription route after having told me for years how wrong I was. And I have you guys to thank right back in 2013, some of you subscribed. So thank you for that. And our subscriptions keep growing. Do spread the word TheLadders. At least while a paywall is down and podcast half free, you can try to convince others that have ties free.


So, yeah, on that note, let's have recommendations.


Ladies and gentlemen, I want to start Poterba Murtha's article, which came out two days ago. And this was in response to, you know what, you're get the other vote in the print. Right. And is basically using the religion. I mean, secularism. Is that in this more than this? The debate is actually that other nationalism is subsuming, you know, religion as well as secularism. All right. So and the second is today are T.M. Krishna has written a beautiful ROM on RAM.


How does he know Ram in expressing an experience?


I'll read it to some beautiful short article, The Student.


So this is a piece by Muzzammil Dalil. It's it was published on the anniversary of the abrogation of Article three seven. It's called That Hominum Heart and Allegri of a Struggle Against Forgetting in Kashmir. It was published in the Norwegian literary longish piece. But what I read it is a very personal, deeply personal piece of what all these changes mean to us as individuals, as Kashmiris. I mean I mean, this is history as much as it's my story and every other Kashmiri story.


So this please read this and see what it all means at a personal level. And we have heard all these debates about what it means legally, politically, strategically, what it means personally.


So it's a little long, but what the time I did a piece in Perrie its headline, Coping with a Deadly Virus, A Social Wando, it tracks the lives of two families, one of whom had members tested positive and what they went through as read the first two bits. It didn't matter that all but one of them had tested negative for coronavirus. The separation agreement with the villagers had issued a decree that the family could not leave their home for one month to the mandatory quarantine period was 14 days.


One of them had been infected with the virus. To make things worse, his was the first reported case in the district. The district was my neighbour and he returned from Bunnie, but after attending the legitimate congregation. So how this virus has actually impacted different communities in different ways and what how it's been tougher in terms of social exclusion of those some of those people in those communities who've tested positive Muslims mainly.


Right. So my recommendation actually is a Time magazine article. It's the next global depression is coming and optimism won't slow it down. It's by Ian Bremmer. Now, I'm not saying what Ian Bremmer saying is definitely going to come true or not true.


I just think that the and I've been saying this for a while, the economic impact of this covid is going to be so severe, so severe that we haven't quite factored it in yet into our lives and forward planning, I suspect, or the gun shop are not even aware this may happen. Generally, I I think that they have no idea. It's an interesting piece. And if you're young in your maybe 20 just graduating, I think anybody read this, even if this is not how it plays out, it's good to plan for this kind of a few years if your career is just starting out, just like I think the generation that saw the Great Depression, it was important for them to know what is in store.


So, yeah, I think it's it's that's why I recommend it now.


We shall. And with a song, you know, that in Rodgerson, such pilots met the whole intriago, whoever he met and he said, Teka Gaylord's at all is forgiven, Suchin pilot gave a spree of interviews saying that it was just hurtful, the kind of things that I was called. But, you know, in politics, you have to. So whether Gehlot forgives him or not is that code for BJP. Shibani, when he called for BJP.


But again, he's like the BJP is about monokini.


So today's song is dedicated to the patch up between Sachin Pilot and Gehlot, and it is actually a very famous gazelle. But the recording you want to listen to is I just discovered this is a recording of my aunt, which was taken in the 70s. She was a very good singer. So that's the person you should listen to until next time.


Enjoy the Hafter. Enjoy life. Agree. Disagree. Keep engaging and expose yourself to more and more ideas. It will only make all of us richer and better.


Will decide. And he wanted nothing to hide. And these people out there who love them will have a good push ahead with both of them. But good for ahead with good ideas. Geovani, who got a job at the need for yard. Jovani will go to the donita yard of the dead inside the goony, Gordon, but not the city. So the good, the good and the of them will go ahead. There is anybody who love this.


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