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This is a news laundry podcast and you're listening to and I'll have the ungrazed up not or news laundry up and I'll have to cut it short. Welcome to another episode of Hafter. And we're actually in our two hundred ninety first episodes, so we are nine short of 300 episodes. Fantastic. We'll do something special then.


All of us going on live like Monisha wants to know what is going on.


I didn't get it. So you have your answer. So you have your answer. Exactly. See so much that is out ahead of her.


So before I introduce my guests on the panel today, just a couple of announcements we have the Hafter is free. It's not behind the paywall for the next three or four weeks. So do share with others who you think would be interested in subscribing to news laundry. We have a full team behind our podcast. Snigdha Detailer LaPadula unil the panelists. So a lot of preproduction production goes into it. So to support that, do pay to keep ministry and subscriber news laundry.


And we have a new analysis in our project up which I shall tell you about further into the Hafter and our Independence Month offer of subscribers getting the Teranga so upset. Cédula because that is our motto in the Muslim of something like that offer is until the end of this month. However, if you're already a subscriber, this offer is open to you at any time. If you want that fantastic global soaps that you can just mail us and we'll give it to you with an extension of your subscription so subscribers can get that anytime on the panel.


Today, we have an office that I want to apologize. I met Azlan. Hello, Manager Pondy. Hi.


Joining me on the phone line from Partner is Unadvertised, who's been on the move for the past few weeks. Hopefully he'll be able to give us some update on the Bihar flood situation on which we are very low on information. So welcome and hello.


And we have budget called Who's Joining US. Budget is based on a daily. She has been a journalist for little over ten years. She's been reporting on health for the last eight years. And before joining Down-to-earth magazine, she has worked with the Times of India and partner for more than five years. She started a career in 2012 with Anei and she's an IMC grad. Welcome budget.


And you have pretty much I'm seeing where you've traveled to as part of your reporting. It's pretty much most of India.


So before we get into budget is going to tell, you know, we're going to talk about covid because the last three or four weeks, we've hardly discussed covid, which is still a pandemic staring us in the face.


But before we do that, Manisha, can we have the headlines of what all made the news this week?


Yes, sir. Logical survey in Delhi showed that those between the ages of five and 17 were most exposed to the novel coronavirus. In Delhi, at least covid-19 positive rate is inching up again. In Delhi, it stands at seven point four. And yesterday I think we recorded India recorded 77000 cases today.


Today, 70 to 75 or seventy five thousand seven hundred, some cases thirty year.


And that's in a day. Yes. And today, Thursday it is. Ten thirty in the morning and it is the twenty seventh of August.


What's the maximum that is from yesterday. I mean, it was updated from yesterday in the morning. I mean they updated it today. Yeah.


That's the highest we've recorded in the day. Right. Probably Oxford covid-19 vaccine. The update on that is that Serum Institute has begun. Clinical trials in India was first confirmed. Coronavirus infections also been reported in Hong Kong and GE exams, meanwhile, in India are going to be held in September. As announced earlier, students had protested. They want to be postponed. That's not happening. It seems we have a flood situation remains grim. Eight point three million people have been affected.


I've seen some reporting in BBC and I'm stuck on this. Sonia Gandhi offered to resign as Congress interim president at the Woodrow CWC meeting. There was a lot of drama over the weekend over this. She offered to resign. Her resignation was obviously not accepted. And then the Congress said, we will hold elections. Sonia, you must continue with her leadership. We will have elections, but we want to hold you to please take over. So that was what happened.


President Bush, meanwhile, is firm on his apology. The U.S. is giving him plenty of opportunities to apologize and say, why don't you do it? He's saying, no, he doesn't want to it. A black man was shot seven times in the back by police in Wisconsin and he's now paralyzed. It's another crime that's made news.


And this has led to huge protests in the U.S. and Bloomsbury pulled out their involvement with the Delhi riots book called Delhi 2020.


And we shall just go through the precautions taken over the responsibility of making such an important book.


Pakistan is about Abrams' address in Karachi, imposed financial sanctions on the gangster on news channels, went to town as something new has happened.


We'll explain further in the heart of why this was again, not news, but it became this huge halwa.


Gary Modi has demanded Asian Institute probing to get into imposition of Hindi at a webinar. Eleven dead and three people missing in a building collapse. And Reigert, it's monsoon and Murillo. About this building collapse, I think last year, there was a very tragic one, impune, not only terrible news of layoffs continue.


Accenture has laid off employees and ten thousand people are said to be affected in India. India has filed a charge sheet again, Massood other 19 others in the 2019 attack. Nada asserts India Unity reiterates this climate lead Bihar campaign. Surat Basin makes some noises about team candidates of Bihar polls. So maybe they'll be able to use a little more about this as well.


And the monsoon session of parliament from September 14 to October 14 will begin and there'll be no one to October one. There'll be a four hour daily sitting and all of this.


And of course, the US elections are upon America and there are some very entertaining speeches that if we have the time, we shall discuss a little bit. But first, let's start with the covid news.


So you know, your reporting on health, just tell us. It seems to have vanished from the headlines because there's no need. There is real chakravarti for some reason.


But where are we on the vaccine now? Apparently, this Oxford vaccine, which just gets the most kind of, I guess, credible press, the trials have started in India. What about Putin's vaccine? Do we know anything on that?


And how good or bad is India to begin with? Vaccines? Yes, the vaccines of Oxford University have begun in India also. But even even if we get positive results out of a student phase three times in India, it's not that it's going to prove to be a silver bullet. That is a change. So once we have the design of skin, then we hear that the manufacturing is also begun. But even if we have vaccine in the market, this is a whole chain of storing them and then making them go down to the level of grassroots.


And then we will have to train our healthcare workers to administer it. Then it's a long shot that we are looking at. There is also a debate now that now we have so many, at least thirty one vaccine candidates around the world in second and third phase of it, in various stages of human rights and civil vaccine candidates in second and third phase of human rights. But on our hopes, misplaced because that vaccines, the short answer is possibly yes, because it's not going to be easy to give vaccine to each and every one.


And we are dealing with the virus infection. So if I eat and you get it but not exposed to living next to us, we are still very much prone to the infection. So we we really should not have much hope on the vaccines. We still will have to believe in social distancing, getting mask washing.


When you say that if you and I get it, but our neighbor doesn't have the vaccine, but you and I say if the neighbor isn't safe, isn't that right?


But the neighbor can still infect people around. And is the vaccine going to give us 100 percent immunity? And for lifelong no vaccine going to be 100 percent effective? No. So that small room of being infected will always be there. Right. So that instead of vaccines you ask about Russian vaccine was actually very interesting, because if you heard the last of which took place this week, it says something like this. They said that even they were not privy to data of the trials, phase one and phase two trials of the vaccine candidate.


And the third phase is even not started. So there is a lot of grey area in the Russian vaccine. In fact, that is not dead even on the list of candidates as of now as we speak.


So we have to be very, very cautious about there, a lot of grey area and anything Russian, not just the vaccine, but, you know, the vaccine. I know I had read in the papers maybe a month of longer than more than a month ago that phase two and three had already started in the UK.


So what you're saying is the phase two and three started a month ago in India. They've just started right now.


Yes. Yeah. So what are the results of the phase two and three over there? Is it showing some promise is showing positive results. So the data is downloaded.


The data is yet not out. But whatever you want, you can move so fast until unless we have, you know, really good data can be done on this by the experts. That makes sense for us. It's very difficult to say.


Now, you know, last week when I interviewed Burkart Khorram, because Haryana has allowed clubs and restaurants and all to open and there was quite a decent turnout.


And they've installed that youve thing in the air conditioning duct. Yes. Which kills the. So there's several people I spoke with, including the management of the club, was saying other people are also saying that, you know, now that different states, different cities, it anything from 20 to 40 percent are already infected.


We have reached herd immunity numbers. No, I'm not a medical expert or a health reporter, but yet people wanted to get out and go about things as normal. And to be honest, you know, for the first two weeks when I was a lot more careful, I would not have gone into an area where there were 40 people, all those very large area. But still, I probably wouldn't have gone in. And now I go, I'm open to going and getting back to as close as normal and taking precautions with precautions, of course.


So, I mean, where does the science on that? Because I see a lot of world leaders saying that as well in different parts of the world, and not just Trump, but I see some European leaders saying that, you know, we can get back to normal. We have to have some attempts to you know, I saw interviews from Greece, I saw interviews from Spain. Where does the world on this?


Where does the science on this one see you lose your immunity? What I believe is one of the most most of you still need days, but at the same time, it's it's one on the understanding. This one is very clear. There is a sign of it on which the experts are still debating. But among the masses, it seems that we have settled with this debate. It shouldn't be the case. Now, you talk about, you know, 20 to 40 percent.


I hope you will settle problems on a set of to correct the problems instead of what they are going to be.


So then begins, what do they look for then? Look for the antibodies, the antibodies, which which of which are going to be developing in person. Muskie or she has been infected. Now, if 20 to 40 percent population has shown it doesn't need this much of population is totally safe. No, it does not mean so in and white that these are not them, then you when we look for antibodies, they just look for what antibodies and all of these antibodies that are something which are known as neutralizing antibodies.


To simplify this for you, neutralizing antibodies are the ones which actually fight off against violence. None of the service conducted so far has told us that in the same population, what was the proportion of neutralizing antibodies? We have absolutely no data on that any more. So no matter what percentage of the sample population is found, we surely say the positivity of the defendants. You see that this proportion of the population is protected. And it not that we really can say that know what is the proportion of antibodies.


So that takes us to the debate of funding. If we could have said that, look, this matter population has immunity and have antibodies, then people have said yes on immunity and they can move out without having much of the bandage on the back of our minds. But we really do not know whether we have vaccinated or not, least in India, outside India to in both of populous nations. We do not know whether, first of all, there's a debate, what is that proportion of societal problems which which needs to be.


So you have experts say 20 percent to 30 percent of positivity can bring in herd immunity. And then you have another section of experts saying a 50 60. So there is no standard definition on the common refrain. We are learning about this virus as the time goes by. You do not have a plan. So it's difficult to say it's a yes or no. We just have to find out what can we do now?


Now, I think today, the 21st today, that India has consecutively recorded the most cases per day delicacies today, the twenty four.


So I just want to bring it on, on the you know, we had done on the Hafter when this had just started and there was that fear that all these trains full of migrant labor going back to be hot and Bihar will be the next like explosion. Has that happened? Was that like an unfounded fear? Because I know they were testing people at the railway station and almost 20 percent positives are coming out. Has that led to any significant health care alarm in Bihar or not?




It's like as the rest of India, a bit sluggish, start later the infection and there was a. And crucially ominously, but I think the latest figures suggest 82 percent recovery rate, which is more than six percent, what is the national average? The mortality rate is less than zero percent. Around six hundred twenty six people have died of this disease and even the positive infection rate is well below three. So if we go by numbers, the situation is not that alarming.


But I would say that there was a midfield, say, three or four weeks ago where when the mood had suddenly changed from that of a bit of indifference to a sort of alarm, but that has eased out in public psyche in the last two, three weeks. Again, there is a sort of indifference to it as far as a migrant to this go about migrant altogether. Figures with that infant government data suggested that there was a point when the new positive cases had a very high number of people returning back home from different cities in India.


And it was at one point as high as 74 percent of new positive cases were of migrants. Now, since that phase has ended, new data is not available that at least I don't see that in the recent despite, say, two, three weeks ago, what was the contribution of this section?




And when it comes to the cases, the rate at which they're going up, I'll just give you right now the total number of the last numbers that we have covid cases as. But Wednesday, that is the end of yesterday. A total number of cases in India were 32, like 34000. That's three point two million and total deaths of fifty nine thousand four hundred forty nine. And now at the rate that we are going bankrupt, is it possible that India will be number one in the amount of cases we have with America to we had to catch up on that.


America and India and both are very unpredictable symptoms of the case that we see. So America has had a very long, I would say. So it's a bit difficult to say something like this. But then again, we have been more supportive than America in coming weeks and days. But yes, as you said in the beginning of the event, India has been contributing for quite some time now. So if that happens, what would you ask me just now?


I wouldn't be surprised if we spent all this time on the only length of defeat, if poverty is also as long as Americans, if we may have not lost most sentiment. So it's still the same depends on the beat that we have.


So there's been a lot of discussion about whether India is undercounting the numbers of deaths and covid cases or not. What is your sense of that? And if there's undercounting, how much of it is that? Do you have any sense of that?


I mean, let's go back the data. If you look at it positively, if in any state or in any country, what be is more than 10 percent, then that is an indicator that we are missing out on because we are under this. Now, if you look at India's data, they are at least seven or eight union data states which have seen this close to 20 percent more than in more than 30 percent of this is actually getting worse, not less in terms of overtime.


So if we have more than 10 percent positive for sure that we are missing is if we do not conduct this properly, what help? If it is one part of this, they would not then certainly does it, but they would also be striking back. So that is something that we need to be worried about. The other thing is about India as you to go. The positivity there is going back, despite the fact that we are having more and more deaths in Delhi than come back, then you at as the proportion of I to compare all of that.


Is that the I guess, what, about 70 percent? And the problem with that, the. Is there sensitivity? Let's look at them and understand the facts, so it is a given that we are missing out on is now so far as that's concerned. That is quite a possibility that we are doing so. A couple of pieces written for Wired might be unpopular.


If you read those two pieces, it is clear that we are doing so because of the idea that we have fixed or say that this is a horrible death and this is not true. So we are missing out on this and we are missing.


So just a couple of questions before we move on. One is this. I mean, should we be prepared for a permanency of a life, change of how we conduct ourselves, the way we you know, the crowded area is going to restaurants, touching each other in the long term, because my understanding was that once we have a vaccine or we have some sort of a not just a vaccine. In fact, I saw the interview on the BBC or one of the scientists of the Oxford Lab.


He says we may not have a vaccine for sure, but I can tell you for sure that we will have a treatment that is specific for covid and that will take the mortality down to below one percent, well below one percent. So we may not be able to prevent it, but we will look at it like we can cure many other viruses and illnesses.


So will there be back to normal world or are you saying with what you what I understand of your view on the vaccine, there is an element that this may be the way things are permanently in life.


I will make, as you said, is a really big war on a particular disease. But the other than the vaccine for this one, because you don't get no vaccine guarantees, 100 percent efficacy, well, that seems so far down in this world. So there will always be an element of skepticism. You lost me. Is it worth the effort? No, absolutely not. At least for a couple of years, we will have to wear masks.


We will have to keep washing hands. We will have to kill physical distance. Now, in a country like Ethiopia at the moment, for example, you cannot have more than one. But for how long are you going to sustain? That is one. So these states do these things. We are we we are going to be doing some some huge changes in our daily lives. State governments will have to do. We can have, but we are definitely not looking at back to normal.


I see anyone has any comment because I'm getting back to normal.


I've started playing for I'm going out, I'm fucking I'm done with this shit man.


I can't see, see see beyond that I certainly do not mean to say that you don't go back or we don't go back, but we will have to do it in a different manner.


Probably that's that's the better way of putting a bit of precautions and do not go to the crowded places. Yeah. Masks, sanitariums.


I think about what you are saying, that there might be a vaccine, but there's a treatment. I think that's that's the worst outcome for India, because in this country, the bulk of the health care is privatized. Even now, people don't go to hospitals because they can't afford it. And if it's going to be a treatment for people to go to hospitals and take the treatment is mean.


Yeah, it's a very difficult. But it's something that could happen sooner, right. Than a vaccine.


And you have during this time travel by train a couple of times. What was the experience like?


I mean, personally for you, did you feel any more paranoid or scared or were you like just battling in your boots with not moving anywhere and otherwise at the railway stations, at the inside the railways? Did you see any difference? And did you feel any more concerned than you would normally feel?


I was not concerned about a lot of things, but probably I am not the right person to answer that, because even in normal times, I see myself and others see me as very careless. So I travelled by train to Mumbai, came back, then again travelled and came back. So I think the trains are a bit less crowded and that's a by it. I liked that and I think it made things more comfortable. Ironically, it made things more comfortable that there was less crowd and other people's reaction was also more restrained.


They didn't interfere with what you were doing and what you and there was less talk and I would see it differently. My personal experience was very good.


I see. But the the pandemic is a boon for France.


It's actually the same for introverts. They wouldn't travel.


I went home and came back. So the airport is like barely this. Hardly, especially in the airport is huge like you. See, people, they give you those facials, those plastic fuel cells, they give you must they use sanitizers and people who are sitting in the middle seats to get those biscuits like those regular ones. But yeah, and because airplanes aren't that full. So when I was coming back, I think in the two, there were two of us in rows like seats.


Yeah, easily so that way.


So now this comes get two related covid related issue, which is the whole this examination, the neat. Yeah.


Now of Banjo's from you know, you've been covering health. I mean, just to give a perspective to our listeners, the whole toss up is that the students are saying and there are various reasons from some students saying they're high risk. We can't travel at a time like this and take an exam. Some saying that we are not high risk, but we live with our parents who are high risk.


Some are in quarantine centers. Exactly. Some students are in quarantine centre. They said, how can you take the exam and this and this examination done correctly and on. And how many students take this example, how many seats, according to reports? Twenty five million. Twenty five million have enrolled, but not all of them take into some escape also. But even by conservative estimate, around 18 to 19 million people would potentially take that exam for need.


For need. The number of applicants is 15 black. And for GE it's about nine like.


Yes, sorry, I got it wrong. Not million. I mean, twenty five what it is.


So that's 2.5 million. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. And for how many seats is this and this.


This includes seats and what all disciplines in all of the which I think is is now a common interest for all medical colleges. OK, Ms. Perhaps it still has a different entrance exam, but all other medical colleges are connected and they score counts for entrance to all medical colleges and Jane is for it. But other engineering colleges can also consider that a school for entrance. And that is what I think that it just like test scores can be considered by other management institutes for admission.


Junior schools can be considered by other engineering colleges for admission. Right.


So before I come to budget about what health professionals concerns would be from because you teach a lot of young kids who either are taking their civil services and stuff like that.


And what what is this? The concern of the government is that if they don't take the exam, this year would be a zero year. That means from next year, the amount of numbers, everything becomes too big. I mean, they cannot they cannot cancel one year.


And that, to me, seems like a reasonably rational concern.


But is there any other concern or will this concern mean that the many students want postponement? But what the government is saying to postpone enrollment this year has gone?


No, but if they postpone all exams like even like Laswell exams and others, that means those students still have I don't know what will be the one year that has not will do nothing this one year.


Know, maybe the guys going to be like a gap year over year also. That means next year will be double. So what is the concern from that angle? And then a May budget can come from the public health angle. What is what is the contradiction, the conflict and the two concerns?


My sense is that the most important stakeholder in this would be the students and the silent majority of students want to take care, take the test, at least the more serious ones, because once you prepare for something, you have a momentum going on. And if there is a delay, you lose that momentum. You may be distracted in doing other things and once you lose momentum. So the silent majority, which may not be very vocal on social media, is for going for the exam.


Also, the concern that concern is because next, the people are saying that to postpone but not to have an idea, respond to what they saw, because postponement to us is to an uncertainty and uncertain time period. And that could be one year to year because there is no guarantee of things being the ideal condition for conducting an exam. Also, the concern that you was that if it is conducted, say, next year for same number of seats, how to different batches would compete for the same number of seats.


But just like Luck was now the most prestigious exam in the country's civil services exam would be conducted a preliminary examination of civil services and the premier exam conducting residency in the country. UPMC is conducted. Exam in October in that about seven to eight black students feel so it's not that other exams are not being conducted, even in the interviews for civil services with a very large number of students, only a select few who get through the means. But it was conducted two months back.


The results were out. So I think things are going on.


We'll get to questions on it. One of the suggestions that I saw, I think there was a debate on this on NDTV. So they had some students or some students had a solution as we conducted phase wise. That's exactly right. It's not it doesn't happen in one shot. It happens in phases like elections happen or cannot be done. What is the practical reality of that? And second, that have more centers, you know, right now, instead of having the limited other how many centers they have, but convert many of the other colleges, schools, just prepare them and have centers so that we are really spread out when we do this so we don't have to travel long distances.


How practical are these two suggestions? This is a good middle part.


Number of sentence centers have been. They have already been increased. The number of students in each room number of students allotted to each room has been reduced for social distancing norms. Also, the main problem and that could be addressed is about transportation because the saying that not be a good example. But let's say in Delhaize, the sense Metro is not operating now and the mass transport say public transport is still restricted in some cities or the village to city connectivity.


Is it not back to absolute normality? That could be one of the concerns that authorities can address that because it's still two point twenty five million people and not a very huge number for a state to press into service its transport services. Right.


Because the transport thing is a very I mean, if that is not done and exams still go ahead, that disadvantages like the poor and the rural people, like really badly.


So is this meeting enough? I mean, is it going to be the state's burden to carry out these facilities or is the center of the burden? So then I mean, that's what the Jugend chief minister was warning, again, saying that we shouldn't see him as a warning.


I think they are going to move Supreme Court against this.


Also as a GST, babysitting or GST, there's just not enough funds with the state government salaries.


So I think the reality is getting that even as we are recording this, but a budget from a public health standpoint, how where would you weigh in on the safety of the students and the people at home vis a vis the administrative nightmare that is of postponing this exam?


We are debating here about the exams and how students are going to take it in the US Navy or in fact, across the globe. We are having a debate about reopening of schools and different things, but to an extent comparable, right? Yes, we have had more than ninety five or ninety seven thousand children in newly infected due to reopen schools. So it is it is a possibility that infection may spread. But since this is going to be a VONNE even kind of thing and not getting even as one has to look in schools.


So you may say that this is not a very valid comparison, but the fairness of that of event, like children collecting at a place or they are coming in, I mean, that's is an issue was discussed. How would you ensure that when schools of children come to a centre, especially the ones living in far off areas, to those will be coming to cities, they because we do not still have full scale of transportation in our cities. So there will all do those things.


And by coming to those centres, how will they ensure that while being in centres on concerned that the number of schools that will be in one room has been reduced? But is that enough to prevent spread is something that we do not know. So this is a very, very tricky situation. And to be because for us to help Cicatrice our distribution in the last place also he said that since the Supreme Court has given a decision on this, they are not going to comment on that, but they share a standard operating procedures with the agencies which need the examination.


So the burden is going to be, again, on those states to implement that is hoping that it will be, I think, not out or at least. Not shared with the public, so that S.O.P is something with the central government is looking to find a way out. As you were discussing about systems, I think, as I said, they are also moving so important that we do so from a public health point of view. It's really a very tricky situation.


But those students who want to take examination also say that if you went like, you know, some some big religious sequence which we have had in the country so far, it would alone and by foot and one day examination so that they're still the jury is still out. But as as a journalist, I would say we have really a lot at stake from this perspective. Yes, one year is something the loss of one year is something which we have to be concerned about.


But what are we going to be dealing with until this central government comes out with a very clear recipe?


And we have state governments really, really geared up to implement that. And so be we should be very, very cautious about it. Now, if these seven things move Supreme Court and file a review petition, that is something we should we should look forward to. But in the given situation, if we do not have enough precautionary measures, if I did not think that, we should go ahead. So a couple of things.


One is that we have a term for the event Dogmatist called doing notably thanks to the also if you have to if you're wondering what we know about this one, oh, no, you can alter it or you can say doing 32 or whatever.


Let me put in a fact that you break it all down.


It's going to be ground on the ground.


So I you can call it a what do you believe was an event.


But but when it comes to the beaches, the courts have said that this was a vicious media trial and there's no proof that I was coming to that.


So if that was if it was true, then clearly the Muslim gene carries it because the whole movie thing with each other's shoulders and jumping, I haven't seen any such data telling us the parties or parties around in the movie have. What was the date that you saw? The video is right banjoes.


I mean, I have done that. How how is that? I mean, is anyone tracking the data? I mean, because the whole thing of the central government and I mean, I know for a fact several chief ministers, no one more to come on record of many administrators. In fact, I've spoken to some IAS officers around the country who said that this whole thing of contact tracing are wasting so much of resources on it, you know, from SDM levels to our level.


Kaskaskia However, it doesn't matter now because it's pretty everywhere. So if we would just use this administrative bandwidth for something else, we may be more productive now if we are doing it.


Has there been any tracing of just like the tracing of the people who attended the event? Has there been any tracing of the people who attended the Ramadan event, especially since the head priest was found to be positive? But is there any data on that, that how super spreaders have these events been?


So there are two things. One, first, talk about these these data and the these events that has really not been any tracking. We do not even know that those all of these events, whether this was down or whether that was that shot, but that all of them were even tested like so if all of them were not even tested. So we did not know what is the student who did not have the police of being infected because he was.


So that is one. And contact tracing, if you are talking to what is almost an exercise, I wouldn't say in complete futility, but it's not useful. Also at this point, the reasoning being sending was accepted. But we are in the that we shouldn't have been interrupted for so very long now that people even don't discuss this film. I would say so, given that we are. So when you have reached that stage, when you are having more than seven people who are doing contact tracing really does not help because it's a filius exercise.


If I am infected, then you may have this back. Seventy or a hundred and seventy thousand people are coming. If seventy thousand people are positive every day on Earth, will you do this? Yeah, I went on practicing exercise, which is been largely, you know, decided by some people in IDP project that has not been in very good shape for years, that this is something we should be doing for many other infectious diseases. It's a very scientific and a very tedious exercise for which you have constantly plenty of human resources.


I was talking to a bureaucrat in Delhi and and he was saying, you know. They should just make a camera transmission says the amount of paperwork, I suppose it is, I'm not at work for eight hours a day. I'm at work at 10, 12 hours a day, out of which six to seven hours. I am just doing this futile exercise of trying to figure out the logistics of contact tracing, gone the garbage truck on time and is detectable correctly.


So what exactly is the problem in accepting that is community transmission?


You know, if you look at if you look at the countries of the world and if you look at that report, which now come up on a weekly basis and really come up on a daily basis, India is the only country in the entire world which has so many cases. I mean, this government still does not. The bottom line is we have a country like I think maybe more than that, but more than that.


But they say that they have just been talking about thousands of cases, 1000 cases, and they record competence, which we have any country on this entire planet which has so many cases. And we don't accept that it is foolhardy. I mean, is accepted. Everybody accepts it. Even the bureaucrats that in the press conference, the women do all this work because we can to get to the point of losing it.


So it is just in their head that they don't want to say, I mean, be directors of the Gladia said in an interview that we are in some commission in certain areas of a few months ago, we had associations of doctors, of epidemiologists saying we are confident be so that this is really not just much at this point. The only thing that we can suggest anything is testing and screening, like maybe this study again.


But why exactly what is the problem in accepting it? Why are being so foolhardy there?


Being what? But maybe they are being let's just say sorry.


I mean, does it have any political say sorry motos not say sorry, but sorry for the level of the. That's really bizarre. I mean, I just think because Motegi must have said they can't get that newsletter now, but I just need you to leave that and get this vaccine.


It is the absolute magnitude of the test.


So Bundgaard, other than this, what you are saying is pretty much a useless exercise. Now, what else are they doing to tackle this now? Because I'm in the sense one gets from reading all the reports and listening to all these people is that they pretty much doing nothing because obviously the cases are going up every day and there's a record every day. So what exactly is being done to tackle this or have they just let it be see the virus at a sacred right?


It will be good, will go up you week and then you would stop the see. So at the moment we are waiting for the. That's it. Oh, really? Nothing else.


We are just waiting for the clock to go down in the middle of the night. So we are testing and you know, we, we are we are keeping people in the hospital just like this.


And so that burden was placed on top of the hill.


Many people are working and the doctors are.


And obviously, I mean, they don't have a choice. Somebody that's not happening.


That's not happening. And isolation is also happening in states like I mean, I can speak about the term because I travel to turn. They are extremely strict. I mean, if you want to hit the border, the first checking, OK, and then after that, OK, these are multiple GIRKINS. They are tired of checking. I mean, you have police, you have the magistrate involved in it. So in case the police people, you can bribe the police people to enter the state, there's another jurisdiction.


I got it. So, so, so if you reach so there are about five police post to after after three police posts, you have to go to the street. If you don't get things done, you had it.


If like if I'm come in here. So from here, from down below, we traveled to different states recently. You had to cover what we are looking for seven days field. My colleagues, when you went to register and we meet our targets for our schools now in every every state in three states, even if every district is also very small, once you enter, you have to look for young people in Mumbai. And what I have to show ticket that I will get done within seven days and it will depend on quality.


So these measures, I'm certainly not saying that they are not in these measures are in one. But the second part is that if you're willing to go to the mosque, you may be fine. For the second part is a total disaster. I will impose these these social distancing. Socialises is the main bar is tasty and pretty, and that is that is the meal management plan, not destiny, if you see how good or how bad it is defeated by the positivity.


As I said earlier, in many states we have more than 80 percent. Capacity is still a great area for us. How long it is for people to make it is something I need to redevelop, but I need to have honest with you, I was able to get speaking to people in the White House or the department in Los Angeles back in the auspiciously and whatnot. I mean, I used to get phone calls when people were really, really scrambling for bits, but also scrambling for bits themselves.


Forget about the issues. So we every state has to be at different point in time. Delhi, you must be relieved that you are in the EU. You are then behind what's happening and also nationally.


I mean, I have a friend who's been wanting to come to India. She doesn't have an Indian passport. I don't know. You can't come. I mean, you have to have a job. You have to. A medical practitioner said I mean, there are four or five categories. You just can't do this without any other even the business visas, whatever, as getting into America is much easier right now after travelling within America. Because because I have friends there, they say, like, airports are not the same normal.


Like no one's wearing anything. We're just getting on flights and getting off flights and maybe white vans and stuff. But there's no major just them here. So. So on that note of above, we let you go. But first you have to give us some recommendation that you think would enrich the lives of our listeners.


You know what it was? It was a matter of I think perhaps that when we had the first case of organ in the world, it was December 21st, just a couple of weeks before that Netflix, you know, released a documentary called Phantom. It was an easy coincidence, you could say just two weeks. There's a couple of weeks before that. So if you watch that documentary, you will understand to begin with what is a pandemic all about me?


Not so much about finding, I would say one one to watch that movie Puckerman. Right.


Thank you so much and thank you for reporting. Good luck. And we look forward to more of your work.


Thank you. All right. We shall move on to the Bihar floods that we've been promising our listeners for a long time, which is not getting much press, actually. In fact, in the last few years, it got more press and it's got this year. So maybe I didn't get a little bit about that before that. I had a few announcements. One is that we have a new Annells in our project. It's called Disastrous Consequences. Not a year goes by with some part of India is hit by a natural disaster.


The year 2020 has been no different. They've been floods. They've been cyclonic storms have been droughts. They've been wildfires. And lives are lost. Homes are lost, lots of properties lost, forest and farmlands are lost.


But how have these disasters affected our ecology and environment? And what is making them happen? We want to do a, you know, proper deep dive report on it. So that is on new and it's in our project. We just, I think, launched it yesterday or something. We've already got, I think, about five and a half, six thousand rupees on that. So do contribute to that project. We're going to be deploying two reporters to work maybe 15, 20 days, just focused on the support from the two states, Azam and Whisper.


As I'm in West Bengal, we focus the ground reports there. And of course, we'll get data from other parts of the country as well. But the ground reporting is going to be predominantly from assignment West Bengal because they have been ravaged by various natural disasters.


So do contribute to a Nelson project is an important story to do. So before we go on to Anand with Bihar update, this is an email from him on Schoonover, who is a subscriber. Thank you. How much of a subscription and support the NRL team? The caravan reporter story was one of the key discussion point during halftime to eighty nine. While secular values were never the strength of BJP, Modi Government 2.0 has taken off the fig leaf of balance that was attempted in the beginning by earlier BJP government.


The boundary of acceptable civil behavior has been pushed in the last seven years so much that even a pandemic took an Islamic overtone. It is truly difficult time for the Muslim liberal that believes in secular principles of the Indian constitution and have that during the discussion on caravan report was followed by a discussion on Bangalore riot incident. And that discussion lays bare the convenient position that many liberals take, which lead the right wing to accuse them of being biased, not how the cost of the victim suddenly became irrelevant and was mentioned only once or twice during the entire discussion.


Had this been a Hindu mob, the entire have discussion would have centered around cost that at times and cost is irrelevant. And that's not always the case. Like it wasn't relevant in the Bangalore case.


And a truly unbiased analysis of past one year of after discussions would also highlight multiple other times of cost. And religion wasn't much emphasized, but was not dismissed by other panelists as being irrelevant. That, in some sense, is the outcome of a half the panel, which comprises largely of upper. Cost Hindu's one more reason why diversity is necessary after has been had many discussions on the right not to recall any of the panelists feeling the need to have certain peaceful origins of Hindu religion or talk about how Bhagwan Ram was a symbol of peace that, in my view, would be irrelevant and frankly dishonest to claim that religion is peaceful and the violent acts of its followers are somehow an anomaly.


Not true to any religion is frankly a convenient excuse, one that unfortunately Maharaj indulged in. Thirty nine Hafter and I expected the other panelists to call out that it was a humbug. The argument conveniently glossed over the fact that Islamic countries have a high share of violence and the worst record on minority rights, whether religion, gender, sexual orientation to society that is increasingly disturbed by Islamophobia, the prejudiced and often unjust behavior of large segments of its followers should be a matter of equal, if not bigger, concern that even the last secular Islamic majority countries are turning fundamentalist should be a focal point of the discussion of liberals among any community.


Religion is what its followers observe to claim that the original concept of peace is frankly disingenuous and needs to be called out. All religions have had their fair share of monopoly over violence at different points of time, lest anyone claim otherwise. To that extent, that was an exception, I might say, true liberal to the other of the panelists. My advice. Please don't try to monkey balance. Call a spade a spade on gender, caste or religion.


Himanshu Meraj want to react to that before.


Yes, I would respectfully like to disagree because this, I mean, this idea that most of the violence in the world is motivated by religion comes from headlines, not from actual detailed understanding of history.


In the last 200, 300 years, the bulk of the violence in the world is rooted in nationalism, both the world wars.


And when he says that, like Muslim countries especially, have had the most violent record of recent years, he says this dismal record on human rights, whether it is homosexuals, obviously treating their minorities.


And if you see these are the same countries that have had been at war for most of life since at least the last Great War. These are the countries that have faced colonialism. These are the countries that have been constantly at war. So these are war ravaged countries and that war is not religious. Those wars have been nationalistic in this country for economic or economic, obviously, because they are tied together. So this idea that all the violence we see in the world is motivated by religion, I'm afraid to say is humbug.


It is not. There is obviously, because we are complicated human beings. Our societies are complicated. There is always a religious angle, economic and social angle. But the majority of the ones the basic reason for it is nationalism, no doubt. But what I do agree with the writer on is that the the which is the peace that I had written, the record of Islamic countries on sticking to the fundamentals, like, you know, which is a bit like the fundamentals of, let's say, Christianity.


You know, thou shall not work on Sabbath Sendejo, but now no one is going to take out more so that if you start work on Sunday, most Christian, you know, they work on Sunday.


The value of working Bible says not to. But sticking to the fundamentals is unique to Islamic countries, which are predominantly Islamic in the sense of, you know, if you even take I had taken the case, I think it's in Indonesia. There was one island that was insisting that the Sharia should take over and not the Indonesian constitution. And they gave in to that. Like while everybody is moving away from religion, this is what was moving towards.


So while I agree with you that it's complicated and the economic reasons and there are several other reasons as well, but the tendency of the fundamentalists being able to dictate governance in Islamic countries is more powerful, at least so far. And let's see where India goes now, considering, you know, what is usually a tough military.


But so far, the tendency of religious fundamentalists to be able to dictate governance in Islamic countries is more than any other country. True.


And that has been the case for the last 60, 70 years since the war, like I said. And that's because if you see all these countries, like you see Iran, you see Saudi Arabia, you see the Gulf countries, they're all they're not democracies, none of them. And that is the fundamental problem. And why are they not democracies? Because there have been wars. Iran was a democracy until 1953, until Mossadeq was thrown over. Iraq used to be a secular democracy until the Americans came.


Lebanon, Jordan, all of those countries, until the until the war started. And so there has been. So there is a religious aspect indeed, obviously. But there is this background also. And I think that in a democratic country, you have have those avenues to reform.


What do you think that evolution happens organically as opposed to the Shah of Iran becoming dictator, being pushed for economic reasons, and then the backlash of that in Ayatollah Khomeini, in Saudi Arabia, for example, one of the world's richest countries, you have one person basically even killing his family members without any protest or anything like that wouldn't happen even in a country which is like as doomed as India right now, you will still protest. You can do something because you.


Now, that avenue of Democratic thing that sort of say that because the monarchy does this, it means that whole society is violent because of religion is like a really simplistic take.


So what I'm trying to say is if we had discussed this in the background of notice, I mean, this background that you're discussing is not relevant to Northeast violence, Maryland.


But this was this was not in context of this was we were having this was the cost angle is not relevant here, fundamentalism.


But he's saying it's not relevant. He's saying and it's it's not relevant, which is why we didn't discuss it. But in many other cases, when the cost angle isn't relevant, we still discuss, for example, I don't know.


I don't I don't believe that we have discussed anywhere because Stangl isn't relevant, because I have often said that context is everything. So I'd be surprised, Himanshu, if we have actually given the cost. But if you could give specific instances, we could talk about that.


I mean, in terms of crime at least, I think we would be careful to point out the reason or the motivations of a crime shot and not being something as extreme.


And it isn't so difficult coming. Now, just tell us how you been and what is the situation of the flood? Because I remember last week we did see some discussion on it and it got some new space, but this week it has completely vanished. Is the situation not that bad? Is I mean, if you could just tell us about that, then we'll talk about the forthcoming election.


The situation is a stagnant it has not worsened or so, but it is a stagnant. The positive development is that for the last three or four days, new areas have not been inundated. So that is the only positive thing. But the interesting the sporadic interest that exists in the media and some sections of the international media had sown this year. It is also surprising because besides a few numbers here and there every year, the same situation is there. So I don't think it's something very different.


Apart from that, the pandemic situation was there and and the polls are more likely scheduled in November as it is issued guidelines and speculation around it is there. But if you just follow the numbers here and there, I don't think that is very different from what has been happening in this part of the EU for decades.


But the coverage on floods, at least in S.M., has improved over the last, I'd say, you know, since news really started from 2012.


And there's hardly any coverage. Now, Assignment Bengal flooding does get some coverage. Again, it is often not as much as it should be, and they are not very relevant.


Stories make headlines, but it has improved. I don't see that improvement in Bihar. Is it because Bihar does not the Northeast, because you know, that whole thing northeast is ignored. So we must given all this attention now as I've come to the Northeast, it gets attention now. Bihar, Bidjara NRB up nonoperational Zarganar Mahato. It's stuck in the middle of it.


Big Time magazine, I think, had the cover story on the ISI officer in Bihar who made maximum out of yellow, which is kind of weird, but some of the most prominent journalists in this country come from that region.


Yeah, exactly.


They come from behind to be strong Indian for the longest time.


And then there's some truth to it. Caroline Benguela disproportionate coverage. And that's because a lot of editors and yes, Bengali. That's true. The Bengali.


So why is that? And what would the numbers be of people affected, impacted on? And do you have some sort of a rough idea?


That's just something to which Romancer said that the cover story in Time was written by the then South Asia correspondent of time, Arvind Arteaga, who won a booker for White Tiger, and that a story that glorification of the official ultimately proved false because he was accused of the largest scam. So we can say Arvind did a very serious story. What was his story?


If you could just tell us in three words.


For those of us who haven't read it, it was he was nominated as one of the Asian Time newsmakers of the year, and he did commendable work in flood relief. But later on, there was a huge flood, a scam of which that was the teacher was accused of being the kingpin. He has passed away now. He was jailed and he died of pancreatic cancer. I see.


Anyway, and now moving to the national disaster management, estimates say around 85 to 90 black people have been affected in six. Sticks and the number of casualties vary the wedding from 27 to 40 deaths, but that is also suspect some of the deaths, which are not flood related, are also tagged with that. It may be a bit higher or lower that can. Anyway, what I am saying is that there have been attempts. One interesting thing I find in the light of the forthcoming polls is that the government's record, the state government's record on flood relief or indeed for in response to any natural disaster, is not a major factor in electoral performance of a particular party, apart from a state to a degree, the tsunami relief by Orissa government.


If you scrutinize the relation correlation between the state government's response to natural disaster and its performance in an election the same year, if it is to do that is not a very is a very strong relation. People people have developed this that if any other government would have been, what would it have done? So this is the kind of indifference that has come in in 2008, in past two, three decades, the the most ravaging floods we witnessed in Bihar.


It was even by the standards, it was a very minute. It wreaked havoc and then the barriers was broken and a lot of water came and villages and villages were swept away. But just two years later in those areas, then India government swept to power with record margin.


So I think there's no real correlation between flood relief, flood impact and are now coming to elections. While the BJP has unequivocally said that we will contest the election under the leadership of Nitish Commodity's, the chief ministers face, I saw an interview of Jira Paswan who was saying that it's not a given, that he will be the chief minister candidate.


Is it just negotiations for a number of seats by the Paswan camp or the party?


What's it called the local party, or is there any serious contender from the past ones or anybody else? Or is this just posturing before the election?


Little irritants, a little irritants and some ego battles. And, of course, the fight for more elbow room in negotiations all then immediate irritant is that we had is one of the few states that still has a legislative council. So I think 22 seats were weakened and LDP wanted a few of them. But that said, you put its foot down and they didn't allow LDP members to be nominated. Even BJP was conceding one seat to LDP, but yet you didn't allow that.


So that was the immediate immediate irritant which triggered this backlash from Turok passion.


And he has made it an ego battle. Also, there is a new scramble for the late vote because new leaders have emerged to trackpad passion. There is there is every party when the mainstream parties have a little more chance and their passion is in BJP and to get its Plan B ready, the NDA has made peace with the chief minister. Didn't remind you what a new leader, but had broken up and formed his own party. Me know that he is the most likely back in the NDA camp, so they are keeping the plan B ready.


If Chilaquiles one ditches NDA, then for the lead votes they would depend on it. And plus BJP itself has ordered on some section of the Dalit vote in Bihar is around 18 percent of the electorate and it is fairly divided because there are many subgroups within these vote which have their own leaders. Now, Ramblas, Pashtuns, the LDP is equivalent to like JATO leader myopathy C has rolled over one section of Dalitz, but not all. Similar is the position of Mr Paswan in Bihar.




So anyone want to weigh in on Bihar before we move on to the next? And so on.


And the floods have been happening for like the longest time now. What exactly is being done to Lake? And the damage from happening every year, that's a good question to ask. And the reason they said was that the topography of this is that you can't do anything for the state of the flood plains. Same is with us. So that is the assembly that has been done in behind.


And every year there are floods, people like this lost of property to crops, everything. Has anything ever been done about it or what?


And I'm sure it has a lot more flood area for people to move. Right. So there is no option. Right. It's the whole I mean, a large chunk of the state of the floodplain. So you have to continue occupying that because that's not the case.


As a sea wall of Behati is not affected by floods in some parts of the state is like 16 districts. Most of these districts are in north Bihar. And like you conduct Bargmann, if you were the districts around Ghungur, like Magadha region, like Putnam, they are these these are really affected.


So what has been done? We had a lot more state funds for embankment embankments. In fact, its flood engineers, irrigation department engineers, flood control engineers are seen as very lucrative postings in Bihar because of that. A lot of funds being generated to that. But Bihar floods are also very much dependent on the amount of water that Nepal controls means if it is very manipulative, it with its barrass, the effect is more in Bihar. So you see if the effect of floods severe in any year.


And we had politicians ganging up all across party lines to blame Nepal or and or or even sometimes they say that adequate central government to the blame to central government, the proper communication with Nepal was not there. But Gundelach River Kozue is the gate is the subject of this schodorf behind it is flooded almost every year.


And this year, also the native Koshy plant is more so. The more the plant more so. The state response has been to make dams. It has been to have treaties with Nepal, but they don't seem to have worked out well.


Yes, while I understand in certain parts of the country there is an option. Like I sound like much of the state is a floodplain. You can't there is no room to go anywhere else. But in places where if you live in an area which is struck by floods every year, why would you not move back and baggage. So I think one element is the geographic and social mobility in India is so fucked because of lack of education, lack of opportunities, that people would rather stay somewhere where at least they have eight months of a decent life, even if, you know, for three or four months their lives are devastated.


I mean, I think it's a huge commentary on the lack of social and economic and geographical mobility, which to me is the most accurate metric of opportunity. If there is opportunity, people move.


It's just helplessness. I mean, even during the migrant crisis, people just wanted to go home. They said we'd rather die there. There's somebody to look after us, which is a lack of opportunity.


So anyways, so now we shall move into the one issue that has dominated headlines. We are not going to touch social. And I mean, although we have seen some vile reporting this week. I mean, but let's not discuss it. We shall discuss the Bloomsbury book. So, Manisha, you can tell us the context. Well, the context which is all gathered up book, what is the context?


Because we have lots of emails regarding that and then we can just discuss the context is simply that Bloomsbury published a book on Delhi riots. They commissioned a book written by three.


They didn't publish the they did. They commission it.


I mean, the book was already published and they withdrew it. And I mean, it was it would have been published and nobody would have cared, except the authors decided to hold a book launch and they decided to call Kapil Mishra for it happened myself, the gold medal theme playing the politics.


Well, so you had luminaries like Nutri and Napoleon invited for that long. So that created a lot of public outrage and furor on social media. Bloomsbury was attacked and the question as to why are they OK with the logo being used for such an event? And the culmination of that was that he said, no, I'm not alone in a Bucksey. We were drawing it. The authors did not tell us that they were holding this launch.


And we decided this alleged book, the statement was quite weird because for a publication that published the book, they said that this was supposedly based on facts. I mean, what do you mean supposedly you were reading the book? Well, not right. So anyway, that happened. And then, of course, there was a predictable left versus right. Well, my first one was is I guess writers have got a political background and they.


They had also written a report for the home ministry. Yeah, of course. And the book is based on that. And you can actually read a review of the book if you don't want to read it. I hope you don't want to read it. It's by you. She will tell you the salient features of what the book is all about.


And finally, it was published by Ghairat Operation, which is apparently started by Sankaran Sano. And to know his wonderful views, you should look at his Twitter timeline.


He's truly an intellectual of, you know, of of international repute, worthy of the commentary that you have to see his Twitter timeline to see Mr. Sankaran son.


What is the of published books by deduction? What the.


I think is just fine, but I'm just saying it's interesting to go over here. So this led to a lot of churning within the what people describe themselves as liberals or progressive. They have vague definitions these days of that. This is even Anurag Kashyap and I know of Cinar said that this is the answer to a book is a book. This is a wrong thing. We should not outrage about this.


This should not have been canceled, even compared it to Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses poor war.


Well, one of the writers of the book compared this to Charlie Hebdo, where 12 people were shot dead. But clearly it's the same, obviously.


So this is the context in which this entire debate broke out. So let me start romancer. What is your view on it? What is your take on this whole thing? Any angle? It may not just be the liberal conservative or the accuracy of the reportage on the book, on the writers, on the event.


I have no problems when it comes to the publishing of a book written by a rightist or a leftist or a liberal. It doesn't matter at all. What really matters to me is using it for political reasons. I mean, you are running a false campaign. I mean, here the role of the publisher is very important. So if he wants to if the publisher wants to publish a book, must check its facts. If the facts are wrong, if it is a propaganda and it is being used for, you know, to justify violence in against one particular community, then it is that's my style.


So in this particular case, it was the book was a complete propaganda. It was not the untold truth. I mean, even the headline given to this, The Untold Truth, I mean, you're legitimizing, you know, and institutionalizing the violence against one particular community.


Right. So about whether it was freedom of speech and whether it was not I mean, you have written a long article explaining why it wasn't that. And as Romans had also said, I mean, it has been so I won't go into that.


What I say is this what you pointed out about the churning within liberals? Why does it happen every time something like this happens? Because they have never bothered to define what free speech is in the first place. They have always defined it according to their convenience. It's always been a line in the sand, whatever it is convenient, they'll go with that. So that's the one problem, because if you apply the now, if you apply the same standards, for example, the book, we are saying it shouldn't be published because it's not factual.


Right. Every single day, even though, like leading newspapers publish fake news, there was an article some time ago in England expressed by a police officer who basically called for genocide in Kashmir. There was an article in print the other day which basically said whatever Muslims are suffering in India is because they are to blame for that. Should they be banned as Willdan? Should they not be allowed to be published because you haven't defined what it is, what hate speech is, what free speech is, what's allowed, what's not allowed?


You have this confusion. And why is that the case? Why haven't you defined it? Because always I mean, you have to understand that free speech is a function of power. Amisha saying Muslims are termite's is not free speech. Somebody challenging him saying you are wrong. That is because I'm a child's body. He has the platform. He can't say that that is often overlooked by the same category of people.


Another problem with this, this thing is that these ideas, whether any kinds of freedom, whether it's freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom to practice religion, increasingly in the last, like since the advent of what we would call new liberalism last 40, 50 years, they haven't been third being rooted in values unless that happens.


And what is the value they should be Datto to the fundamental value is justice. If that is not the case, then all this and that is mean. Mean. Absolutely. That brings us further back what is justice, because, you know, that I think needs to be really defined and very true.


But at least like in every civilization, in every culture, you have some understanding of that. What is equality? What is justice? If you tested these values to they'll they'll always be that. If they're not equal to that, they're tethered to personal likes and dislikes. You'll always have that confusion. And again, the organizing principle of our society. This is everywhere in the world. Pretty much everywhere in the world is profit. It's the profit motive.


And that's precisely why Bloomberg. But he was publishing that book. That's why Facebook, the whole controversy about Facebook was about so because that is the organizing principle, all these ideas, freedom of speech and everything that becomes subservient to that, a list of your value, organizing principle as a justice and equality, then they become subservient to that.


And this whole I mean, another interesting point is that all these people you named, for example, Anurag Kashyap and unknowables in the so-called liberals, all of these people, if you really look at them, they are the people who will suffer no consequences from such hate speech.


Hmm. So when they are giving these summons, they know that it doesn't affect them, that you can be certain that the same book will be used. I mean, it's already been used. That fact finding report we have done reporting on, it's being used to to put Muslims in jail. Right right now. And you can be sure that do you see us down the line, the same big book will be used to persecute more Muslims. These people won't have to suffer any consequences for that.


And this whole idea about market, somebody said it was a marketplace of ideas because I had one book and I thought we gave up on that race like three years ago anywhere.


I mean, it's a great idea. It is a very sanitized, very neutral kind of a marketplace. But what does a marketplace mean if, for example, you own a mall in that market? I have a street God that is not allowed in. And worse, you are the mall owner. You not only make the rules of the business, you also run the security for the marketplace. What kind of a police department?


And my guide to the tired cliche about the police officials here.


So I am able to see it very clearly. I'm not spelling it out right now, but I'm seeing that the the police, the the government is using this east violence to kill, to strike fear among those who were protesting against the OK, so they are making it as part of the conspiracy towards this war.


So basically, anything to do with Syria becomes a part of this. Right.


And also striking fear among the Muslims that if next I mean that, that you cannot hold such such protests just this and this is happening because you will see it where, you know, very soon when the police special cell, which is handling with just one fire, which revolves around conspiracy. So whenever they come out, they will come up with a target and you will see that this is the design extended. I mean, this book is very little in front of, you know, what is going to come out in future.


Just the other day, cagily, mom, you remember that is when he was arrested in January, I think, for sedition because he made a speech at one of the protests this week. He was again arrested under Europea for his role, alleged role in the riots. And he is supposed to have incited deadly riots while he was in police custody. In jail. Yeah, no, the way this investigation was, in fact, reading stories on it, I don't want to comment on this Bloomsbury book.


So they have gone ahead.


Should they not have gone ahead? Is it an assault on free speech? Where are you on this entire discussion? No.


Are two, three ways of looking at it. First is I would look at that as a contract between a private publisher and author. So if they approached a coach who is right and say that would be settled legally, it's whether there was a breach of contract or not. So that legal intricacies, we don't know. So if the sanctity of contract is taken as the starting point, then it is as a contract between two or three individuals and private publishing house.


Then first thing to look at is the clauses. What were the policy provisions so that only a court of law can settle. And I don't know whether they have approached court or not. Well, the authors have at heart. So if it goes to the litigation process, that is the first thing to look at. So that I said in the context of saying that his column was censored so that it is meant, first of all, it is a matter of contract, a man contracted to write and what he was entitled to, what the newspaper was entitled to.


So it is also a matter of contract. So first thing second is know what the milers he drew and what the Mila's these authors do are the same, and that is profitable victimhood. So they will now be victims of something being suppressed or something and or they being not given the opportunity to say something or do something. And I. In some corner of their heart, they would be very happy because it has given a publicity that they would not have got otherwise.


So they are now flaunting that so many copies of the book has been ordered on Amazon or whoever is selling it anyway. So they have got that you might as hard is that people have stopped looking at events like riots or something as a student and people have assumptions and conclusions. But understanding the phenomenon of communal riots has now been divorced or divorced from the perspective of a student in the sense that that is a problem I had in the university. So people like professors recommend books to read books which are even most revered books on production of communal violence in India already partially account.


So they would always take a perspective of a particular set of meetings or other sectors of victims. So it is not what we as students were there for right now. I had a bit of arguments with my teachers in the university about it and what they were recommending, the partial recount, because like right when I was a child and I witnessed it and I saw the accounts of my friends, they had a very different accounts and worked. The books we read were very, very.


So that is a problem with the generation of riots because a riot is a complex event. It had many elements. And we need to have the curiosity of a student to understand it and that it has to be discovered even in these times Manisha.


So two things. One, I personally have no issues with the publication of a propaganda. I think, in fact, good propaganda can sometimes even be called high art and does achieve the status of high art. Great examples, maybe by ignorance, propaganda that every college students get, you know, taken in by. So I think liberals dilute the discourse when they make this about how dare you publish propaganda. Propaganda has been published for a long time. I think the problem central problem here was that this was a non-fiction book and every non-fiction book has to operate with a certain set of facts.


You can be cherry picking those facts. You can be selective with those facts. Sometimes you whitewash those facts, sometimes are convenient for those facts, but you still have to operate with facts. This book is Factory and it seems to be nonfiction on an event that happened, I mean, six months ago where we lost more than 50 people. So to publish a book which is not based on facts, call it nonfiction, have had to deal with misinformation.


You know, I mean, you can reduce the review for the sort of, you know, claims it makes.


That is a central problem in a publisher has to take responsibility for when they publish something like this. I think Bloomsbury said that this is self publishing. It's a new sort of branding thing where basically anyone who has a book can publish. I don't know if there's money involved. I mean, I'd like to know if it's self publishing.


Have the authors paid Bloomsbury or I mean, why is Bloomsbury doing this carrot for them to self publish calamitously so you cannot disassociate yourself with that? Bloomsbury was trying to do and I think this is very much Bloomsbury. UK, for example, would not publish a book by Katie Hopkins saying that, you know, violence against the migrants in Berlin is a good idea.


For example, in the US they publish something on the Georgiade protest that happened, painting it as, you know, a conspiracy by Jews. This is something this is not acceptable anywhere in any decent democracy. And you cannot have these guys come here and make concessions just because it's India. So I think the protests will have to be restricted to the fact that this is low on facts. It does not behoove a publication that claims to have editorial standards to publish something like this and stick to that.


I don't have any problem with BJP leaders getting space, getting published. Weaponless has got a lot of books published.


I got published and then, yeah, you know, more than anyone can publish a book, whatever. I mean, that's a different genre altogether. Neither do I have a problem with propaganda.


The problem here is simply on relevant.


I have a problem with propaganda because propaganda is mostly fiction. Right. So that's my problem.


I mean, you know, you can use a certain set of facts to publish, but it's mostly spreading falsehood so that it can be spinning.


So I have a few emails regarding this. We have lots of emails regarding this. OK, guys, I just have one announcement.


You don't know. I'll give my all the last on it. I have I mean, all that I wanted to say is on my piece. I recommend you read that piece. What's it called? Bloomsbury Bend's Bloomsbury. Well, so it's on the news.


On the website. You. Check out my piece, I want to repeat that we've got almost like 20 e-mails this time. Wow. So I'm going to make a very strict rule from here on. Your mail has to be less than 400 words for me to even read it out in any part of it. And while I've been a little lax on non subscriber meals being read, while we love the non subscribers as well, even though they pay absolutely nothing to keep us afloat, I will not read non subscriber mails at all.


I mean, not even like in parts. So from next week onwards, you can e-mail us at contact news, laundry, share your feedback, your critique, your criticism, your inputs. But if you're not a subscriber and if you don't show up in the subscriber list, you know that we tally the mail that coming read, I will not be able to read it. And it has to be less than 400 words because since last night, getting almost 20 e-mails, some of which are twelve hundred words you can imagine right word, but very well written to send them anyway so that some of them so send them, we can read them and we can get them.


We can publish the ones that are very long. Maybe you can warn us right at the beginning. But this is for or for the publishing.


I mean, I hope I won't be read out all the mails, but I'll read out by looking at your graph that's very popular these days.


What's an autograph? It's musicians and shipped my because you put that up in the neighbor, the Iliad. Basically you don't want to read the whole thing.


This is my let's not to the bar diagram made by someone like you. A graph is in journalistic parlance, it's like the summary of the story, like that second generation basically.


So again, Chuck says, hi, I've been gone almost a month, but now I'm so sorry I was running low on cash. So he's back as a subscriber for a month. He says he cheated on us with Netflix for that. I'm sorry. And I want you guys to know it's not you. It's me. Not that we have taken care of that. Let me bring up the topic of the recent outrage surrounding Bloomsbury Publishing of the Daily Right 20/20.


I was watching Chicago National Interest. Do not roll your eyes up in London, where he was basically giving out the history of band council culture in our country and pointed out several books being the point of outrage of several communities, whether they were Muslim, Hindu, Christian right. Politicians or intellectuals and even the left liberals.


He went on to criticise the publishing industry in India and called it an incestuous bunch and wine and cheese parties, and he doesn't indulge in a small cocoon of Vinings parties. I completely couldn't brush off what he said in that episode about our band culture and how it has been in existence since independent society where the left or right. My point of contention is short. A book which has not seen the light of day has not been read by most people in spite of the fact that it has been altered by BJP sympathizers and wing intellectuals who have all the reason in the world to paint the events in Delhi riot in a completely different colour, as they already have in the past, be subjected to a ban.


We have laws against hate speech. Well, actually of very vague. It's not a ban. There's no that's not a ban.


I will not lie. Even I was quite happy when I read about the news of Bloomsbury halting, but in retrospect, having committed the mistake that liberals despise. Also, as mentioned, one document where it was mentioned about Odyssey's chief's involvement and his occasional association, the hatred towards achieving the common goal of accession of Kashmir. Could he mention the name of the book, a document that he had spoken about? Yes, of course. So the reference has been made by a lot of people.


But I think the original let me just skip the reference. So my head, I just put out the reference. But on of speech, it's called Rashtriya Slome SABIC sung National Upsurge by MGE. Toccara, that is the the way the original appeared. And it has been influenced by a lot of people since then. So. Right. So got to address this word, Rashtriya. So I'm mixing national upsurge.


That's why I chikara so check that out. That's why the original text appears but about it's not a bank. And so I have explained how it's not a bad. If you read my piece you'll get your answer then. This is from Arshad. He says this matters regarding a you received in the last hafter. I apologize. It's a long one, not shadow cabinet. Read the whole thing. A fellow subscriber mentioned the word secularism was not included in the original constitution.


However, if he digs deep into the Constituent Assembly debate, he will find the same panel had included Article fourteen of the Constitution, which states equality of every person on the Indian territory, even an alien without equal treatment against any law within the territory. People forget the fact that the word secularism had a totally different meaning in the time it was taken from Europe, where the state will be totally cut off from any religion. However, the Indian constitution and context was different because it was based on Indian nationalism, where any Indian with all the culture and religion will have the same right.


Almost all members of the assembly agreed on a secular state, but only didn't add the word. I guess that's a very good point. Just how we define secular was very different. And then you want to say that I beg to differ, that it's majority community, which is a torchbearer of secularism. There is not a single Muslim leader who Muslims of India have voted since independence. Muslims in India have always backed Hindu community leaders, whether it is Nehru, Mulayam Single-Use Salad Bar, where the majority community, which has time and again created leaders like Yogya that did not etc.


. OK, good point. Then goes on to say RSS BJP has created so much victimization under the. The community that they have, that they see everything with an appeasement lens, even having a meal and the holy the valley of Banner becomes an appeasement, they can't think how Hindu, a Muslim can have an interreligious meal together, even huge houses that are necessary because each country has a fixed quota of pilgrims. Then he says, Kashmiri pundits are probably the only Hindu community persecuted in India.


Around 750 people were killed. But if even now people talk about their persecution, they have an ultra solid edge. They get reservations, academic jobs, etc.. However, you compare that case with similar cases of riot victims, whether it is Moradabad in 1980 with 400 occasionally massacre in 1983, 2000 were killed and even 250 were killed. Thousands were killed, BARBREE were killed. And also the Delhi riot, that same narrative is not carried out and the benefits aren't given.


So it's time majority of them realize they can't live in a bubble, that we are so persecuted in this country, whether it is them who have suppressed every caste, religion, linguistic ethnicity, that's a different. So I shall thank you for email. I agree with you on the issue of secularism, but it was included in our Constitution, some form the other. And, you know, this whole narrative of Kashmiri Pandit Exodus media did not cover it.


A lot of people. And this is where, like many shows saying this and chanting Rajput case being a case in point where you're a beautiful. So it becomes the truth. Who says it wasn't covered? I mean, half the people who are mounting this were not even around when the Kashmir exodus happened. They they've heard some, you know, ignorant people, you know, whether it is our leaders who are as ignorant as the Twitter folk.


I have worked in USEC, the amount of coverage Newstrike did of the Kashmiri exodus Bernhardt's it was, but there were no channels.


It was Sudarshan subquery channel today.


Tell me how much coverage of Muslim rights abusers? None of the coverage hooyah many. They get the musical tapes in the gallery. They won't get any coverage of the news yet linking to their TV, they can figure out the Internet together, the Internet and TV. Neeta, but the private channels need a bottle of Kaskaskia to get news coverage.


I remember 1998, 2000 and the Kashmiri Pandit, the refugees were in Delhi. So I got so many stories done on this. Have you ever heard Delta?


Did you hear something that Hamady coverage, news coverage, encouraging news coverage?


Do you think of it as the coverage of this, even with a mammoth Rajiv Gandhi? Do you see, although the sardars are a fraction of the total population, you keep jitney coverage. Whose activities are the music, the news? You see how much news coverage Doordarshan gives you anything depending on the government and private agencies that existed at the time. How much coverage was there of the Kashmiri exodus?


Just one point about this. I mean, I understand where he's coming from about like the number of people killed, but such events shouldn't. I mean, every death is a huge tragedy, but they shouldn't be only viewed through that prism like these many people were killed. And so this one is bigger than this one. That entire community was uprooted from their homeland. They had inhabited that place for centuries. And overnight it was all gone. So I'm just saying that more people were killed somewhere else.


That shouldn't be a military question, but that's true.


Yeah, I have a subscriber's. She doesn't want to be named.


She's just written a long mail where she was aghast by opinion, by opinion that, OK, probably she hasn't mentioned by name, but by the panel.


So, no, she hasn't named me under discussion on period leave. She says that the main reason is that even after twenty nine, it is appalling views presented on the subject of period and also maternity leave by the correction in and near the maternity leave is six months and not three months. The law was amended sometime in seventeen eighteen to the extent from three months to six. The argument against extending the leave is similar to the ones being proposed against spiritedly.


Yeah, she says. I don't have a very strict view of the same. But as someone who has seen French suffer from debilitating pain and nausea during that period, I do believe that it is something which companies employees should have a conversation on. I'm sorry, but this argument is that had little employers from hiring women. It is clearly established by maternity leave policies of several European countries. Are maternity leave extended up to one year? Employers in India are slowly beginning to realize the importance and need to provide women.


So fair enough. In fact, if I'm not wrong, we have a piece coming coming up. Yes. By a subscriber very much like you. I just be your initials. You don't want to be named. So we have a piece coming up on this. Thank you for pointing it out. I am rethinking my utterances on this and I shall do some admission then and come with a very clear view on this. It takes me a while to get clarity on views that I don't have firsthand experience on.


So maybe I need to think this through a little bit. Then. This feedback is from Ali, who is a recent subscriber. I'm not a whole lot of any big title or high degree as a usual subscribers. So I apologize.


Dude, don't worry. At least I'm not either. And that doesn't. Keep me from pulling my gun out, Ranger TV nuisance in order to see what a debacle our current news media's statue in the name of journalism. I love Maneesha for a satirical, comical and witty we have reporting. I enjoy opinion in regard to an interview which I haven't heard many give you much praise for.


Yeah, you can watch, but kind of the I'm sure there is a group of researchers who are responsible for you achieving it.


Well, yes, I won't lie that I do have some research handed over to me when I go to interviews, but I do a lot of my talent, a lot of the research I do myself.


I'm just saying, unlike many shows, just lines up in a I think I got a little more show.


But I mean, the thing is that when I'm at Gurum, my demeanor and manner is different from when I'm in my studio. That's a I mean, it is actually an event of someone else who I'm just happy.


Yeah, it was all right. It was great fun. And I think one thing all the relevant question, it was the one thing that struck me, though. I mean, we've all we've created quite a bit on this show and we have usually. But she's an immensely watchable person. Yeah. She's I didn't get Steve while making sense like I love cannot be watchable when he makes sense. He's a bore. He's a giant. But if you if he ever chooses to make sense, she's someone who only a few angles who can hold your attention while it's a big loss to TV.


So Alec goes on to say nice things about us. Thank you for all that. And he says, I would like to bring your attention to the issue of expect unemployment as well. We all know the current situation of unemployment within the country, but this is only the tip of the iceberg, considering the fact that even in other countries, Indian citizens are fiercely Aissami setback due to the pandemic. And then he's given three links. I would request you look at this map and tell us how to really impact this country.


In any case, you guys also I hope you guys keep doing what you're doing, remain news platform. Well, thanks, Ali. You have said some nice things about having memorized a slogan that when the public pays public itself, actually, I'll tell you, I was speaking to a friend of mine who's a banker in Singapore. Most of my friends from school are all in the financial industry. Some are on Wall Street and some are in banking in Singapore, which is one of the hubs of private banking, which is a what is a thing when you use a polite word for something that you don't want to use a rude word for euphemism.


Yes. You're so private bankers euphemism for ill gotten wealth being parked. Right.


So he was telling me that basically there's going to be a real I mean, in January is where at least he and his analyst and his team are looking at the real bloodbath, because in January, you know, most of the Western countries, also Singapore, the governments are giving them money to make sure no one is fired. But that would probably come to an end in maybe November, December. Then he says then I mean, he's going to get rid of a large chunk of his team.


And all these people are very highly paid people. And he says to the money we get, which is just government money, actually, because we don't have that, because business is going to the stock market, which is why the world of stock markets are zooming up while the economy's going down. It makes no sense.


And the RBA governor said that there is a disconnect between the stock market and the economy because though that stimulus package the U.S. announced one big reason is when they announced that much of that money went to Wall Street.


Exactly. Now, that will probably end in December. And he says that's when the bloodbath will begin. So we go to wind up today. I have a lot of emails, Pano, your e-mail is there as if your email is that I'm going to read all these emails next time. If your email is there, they've your email is there. Prokosch ideal mail is there, but because of the amount of emails I've got, I'm going to have to figure out a more efficient way of reading these mails sort of next week.


I'm again repeating if your email is over 400 words, you may publish it. If it is if it goes through our editorial filters. But otherwise, for me to read out bits of it, it has to be on the phone and words. Like I said, we're getting almost twenty, twenty five miles a week. We will not read Melbourne on subscribers. But yet I do want to know what you guys think. I'd want you guys to take us off on or disagree with us or correct us on various issues.


I find that hugely valuable. So please don't discontinue. The only reason I'm putting this in place is so that we can include moments when they were like five, seven, eight miles coming. I could, you know, go read 600, 700 word mails, but now a 20 emails coming. I'd like to include as many as possible.


We can be strict about not allowing non subscribers that you can do that. I think. I think. I mean, too bad. Too bad. You've got to pay if you want to be heard. No, sorry.


What kind of slogan is that money. Such a fake after giving all this gone about justice and all. You want to be part of the model that this model has used. This model doesn't.


This ad nebula though you were nodding your head. I'm a free marketeer, the chief, you know.


But anyway, so the contact that news laundry dot com, I repeat, contact that news on the shell emails, but please stick to the rules. I said and all the subscribers means haven't got read this time. I'm going to mention them in the next time and we will take out each of your criticism. And there have been several criticisms of Meraj on on his at least the perceived kind of whitewashing the. Muslim aggression while focusing on Hindu aggression.


There have been several pointing out my somewhat lax take on gender issues, so very patient, but this is known for being on this show or the reactions of all parties like you unconventionality.


You have other ideas also different dramatically by his own Khambatta. Exactly the same.


No, my body said we are tired.


I was reading that story yesterday, as it always has gone out of its own volition.


So on that dollar amount.


And so I also in greater, greater and greater greater also this week really saw some amazing weather. We have had the most good days since 2015. We've had five or six good days, which meant that all the creatures, great and small, young and beautiful and not so beautiful were seen. In fact, a really beautiful creature was seen strutting its stuff at Seven Racecourse Road and next to it there was a more dancing, also a peacock. The more beautiful creature was more the.


But we have a song dedication to that. I'm sure you guys have seen the video that he put out.


Beautiful is extremely humid right now.


But is it also a cover that if you look at it but read recommendations, though, they're going to sabotage, but starting off with the recommendations I would recommend are an alternate story about how people, you know, did not get their houses after spending lots of rupees is really I mean, you know, a telling story, you know, about a country where people can just get these buildings, can just get away with such impunity. Yes.


We have a new nelson-carr project, Abdool, check it out. So this is a story based of the scientific agenda.


So I write I recently read the Yogendra. There's a new book Making Sense of Indian Democracy. It is a collection of his essays written over the last two or three decades and the last one having been being written in 2017.


It's a broad sweep of topics, themes, but he has tried to classify among different things. I think he has a theoretical perspective on different developments in Indian politics and democratic dynamics, the responses, the concerns, as well as the sheer rhythm of it. And of course, he comes with his own biases. But for to see a scholarship and the data and the insights that he has, it is a good and enriching read. So it's published by Permanent Black, which is a it was an imprint of Black Swan.


So the book is a making sense of Indian democracy. You can read. The second is I won't compromise the translation of selected parts from Charite. The monastery is written and ordered to Lord Ram. So he has. I was keen to see how the beautiful politics of Democratic Munish comes to English and he has done a good job of translating because I had read it in the original and the English translation has gone well. And by the way, I also learned that the great novelist Vikram Sage is also working on a project of translating Ramchand among us.


He's a very good translator also because he has done brilliant translations of Chinese literature to be something new to that. Third is the. My last recommendation is a piece that appeared two, three weeks ago in The Hindu. It was written by a sociologist, Dipankar, and he has focused on the non-economic factors of migration, the sentimental pull back and the anxieties that family or the ruler household or the home pulls back migrants. And that may not be always explained by economic factors.


And he had said that there is not a laboratory and time data emerge. And he has cited previous studies. And even though I was keen that it came in distressed journalism that we saw in wake of pandemic, but it didn't because it's an abstract idea, but a very real one at the same time, because that is what I gathered in my limited interactions with people who return back, that economic factors were only partly responsible. There were other factors also.


So I think it's a very good piece and a very valid observations. I wish somebody else. The winter migration was in full swing. These are the three recommendations. Thank you. I'll recommend three pieces, which I think should be read together, all three of them in different contexts with different analytical angles. Basically try to explain why Hindutva has taken over the Indian polity and society. Two of the pieces are pretty decent. Were written like last week or the week before, and one is a little older.


So one pieces by Ejaz Ashraf in news click. It's called What You Can Redo and Broderbund method don't get about secularism. The second one is by coastal flooding Indian Express called Mondal Movement 30 years on and the third one, which is a bit older. Well, it was published in February in on the India Forum by John Rees. It's called The Revolt of the Uppercase.


I will suggest your interview, but clearly not nothing. What's clearly she has not read.


She has spent a whole week watching her. No. And so good about me.


I need this any new since I have nothing to say. But even like in social conversations, I have nothing to say any more. This Concilio is very sharp advice Geduldig recommending anything done by me.


I'm being delling and being dragged down by these laundries.


So you should recommend that no one should ever do that.


So I have two recommendations. I guess one is I would highly recommend my own piece because this whole Bloomsbury, it has become such a confusing this thing. I've urged people read the other piece I highly recommend is in the conversation. It's NBA teams boycott playoff games in response to Jacob Blake police shooting. It's a piece I think he's the editor who's written it on. You know, those of you who've been following the violence in the U.S. because this man was shot seven times in the back with three of his children in the SUV by cops, and they've had to postpone the NBA playoffs because I think right in Orlando, Magic refused to play one game and the others.


And this piece talks about how the NBA and the basketball teams have been at the forefront of actually taking on social issues. And I think it's phenomenal that they can do this. And it is so far from anything any team could ever do for social justice.


I think it's an important treat. It gives you some facts. It also gives some perspective. And a third thing I'd like to recommend is do watch all the speeches from that. This one son for up. He's completely off Trump son.


Speech to Melania, speech to Mike Pence's speech, the ultrathin CNN Nikki Haley, also the Gillispie talk about the some of the speeches. Basically, they're saying anything. They are just, I think, one or two speeches from saying that if you don't, we were for us. Zombies rise out of the earth and then you will not be allowed to go to church. You will not be allowed to breathe. You are not I mean, how can responsible leaders paint such a picture?


I mean, I don't have a dog in the fight in America. I mean, I don't care.


But I mean, I'm shocked at the level of discourse. And this is I mean, similar to what I think we will be seeing here. We saw some hints of it. I got to Miami, vote me to get the my debating oncology out there talking like some some say Boston Mayor Pataki for dignity.


They will not and they will not. They will of your wives and daughters will not be safe. So I think just as a sociological exercise, watch the speeches and read these two pieces. But on the other side, there's also I mean, in the same society, like you were saying this, plus boycotting marches and stuff in India, that's not, like you said, not going to happen.


Just like for several weeks. There was a huge, huge outrage about George Flatcar. It's not there in India. I'm talking about a couple of weeks ago in West Bengal, could be district. A young Muslim guy who was after dinner was sitting outside somewhere near a pond fishing BSF. Kim, his name was Chenu Rahman. They chased them away, got hold of him. One BSF person allegedly put his knee on his neck exactly like happened in George Flooding's.


And then the officer came and shot him from point blank range twice. And you haven't like there have been a couple of reports about it, just reports, but it's right.


So, yeah. So it's an interesting sociological study and I will leave you with this song. It is dedicated to the prime minister. I hope he's listening.


Corruption, Ray, you're going to Australia, but buttoning up some theatrical love Article three here so you can make the most of it after. We hope you will join us next. Topdog again. I do recommend afterwards you can write it free and enjoy the song someday. Me. More than that, that you see all the news, laundry podcasts are available on Stitcher, iTunes and any other podcast platforms, please subscribe to News Laundry, help us keep news independent.


You got all our podcast on news, pop culture, current affairs and sport visits used on the dot com. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and subscribe to our YouTube channel.