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[00:00:01]

This is a news laundry podcast and you're listening to and I'll have the ungrazed Nelligan or news laundry up the half the cabinet shortly. We are back with the half hour from a rainy, rather pleasant deli and many parts of which are flooded, especially Google and Sead, which is looking like Venice. In fact, those underpasses are completely out of this one, except those underpasses like two kilometers long. So if someone is stuck inside, they would have drowned.

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We wouldn't even know, you know, that's like 20, 25 feet deep. But we are in our office, which is rather damp, the garbage. And Maneesha says it's not damp. It's wet. And what was your opinion is soaked.

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Drenched. It's drenched. So please pay to keep of copper dry. Yeah, we can replace the carpet today of Ramun is traveling romance that is traveling as a verden. Joining us on the Saturday in our studio is a Haddad's Aged I meraj.

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Hello, Manisha Bondy. Hello.

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And joining us on the phone line is Batiks and the co-founder of Old News Hyperthermic.

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Hi. Hi, everybody. And where are you right now?

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I'm in the in my home office, which is in my bedroom and how I'm doing it as as flooded as other parts of the country.

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It's been raining quite a bit, but I haven't stepped out, really. And it's I mean, there's some amount of flooding, but not too much. Not like the legal gun. What I'm seeing. Right.

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Most of you will probably already know who Patika is and what old news those if you don't. It is one of the pioneers of fact checking in India. But you can tell us, I don't know the technicalities. You're one of the few fact checking agencies as recognized by some entity or the other, I'm sure.

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Yeah, I think it does suffice to say that we are not the only factor because live in a simple slip.

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Right. So let's get to the headlines. But before that, I have a couple of announcements are analyzing our project for India's custodial debts has almost topped up. Thank you so much, all of you who have contributed to this project. I think the target is to like ten thousand. I think we all pretty much almost there, too. Like five of those will contribute to the Daily Rights Project. I hope you appreciate the stories that have come out.

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Like I said, many more will be coming. It is not over. We have two reporters dedicated to this I used who was on the ground and Vasanth for the longest time. We have given them ten days off because they had just camped out an office because they were going to Carcano courts and they going to police stations. And, you know, we all just thought it wasn't safe for them to go back home when they were out on the ground.

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So much so now they've got ten days off. After being camping out in office for about a month, we will have another few and projects up saying I have to contribute to those and do subscribe if you just want to support our journalism and the next you have to be free. Like I said, we have a new website that is coming up. We are testing various permutations and combinations of the smooth flow of payment gateways and a podcast player. So enjoy the Hafter while it's free, but do continue to pay if you can and share this with others who you think would appreciate it while it's free, because once it's paid for, they'll have to pay to access this and some of the other stuff.

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On that note, Manisha, what all made the news this week?

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So a story in The Wall Street Journal created quite a stir in India. Briefly, the story was about how Facebook clouded its own rules to let BJP leaders in India and Hindu nationalist individuals and groups spread communal hatred. And this was given a possibility at the instance of young kids whose the Facebook head of public policy and the stories basically explains that this was so because they didn't want to let it get in the way of business in India with the BJP being in power at this created quite a lot of talking points.

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There have been cases filed. There's a case that kinases filed alleging that she's received threats. There's a counter case that a journalist has filed saying that he's also receiving threats because his complaint notes his name. So we can discuss these two complaints. Congress has written to Mark Zuckerberg seeking inquiry into Facebook's news operations. It's become, predictably, a BJP Congress slugfest. Meanwhile, Google and Facebook will be forced to share revenue with media in Australia.

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Yeah, that is maybe this is the sort of a sign of things to come, which I think may not be altogether a bad thing.

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The Supreme Court yesterday directed the CBI to investigate Zeshan Singh Rajputs that this has reached.

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Yes. I mean, we shall discuss this because we've got many emails from some very rational, reasonable people.

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And maybe I'd like you to weigh in on this, that a lot of people have actually bought into just the nonsense going on. And how does that happen? That's the power of constant media propaganda, if you want.

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I think over the last ten years, this would be one of the cases of successes of media propaganda, how powerful it can be.

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I mean, my impression, Bhushan has our Supreme Court to delivering on its intentions, condemning it. But he he's in the club recording this on a Thursday morning and he's in the court right now. The hearing is going on as we record the most recent. And this is that he said that I refused to apologize and I've done nothing wrong and I stand by what I see. We can discuss this in some detail as well. And it's 1:00 right now in the afternoon on Thursday.

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If by the end of this, the Supreme Court has pronounced its sentence, we shall let you know.

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Yeah, the IAF has written to censor both us, saying that there's been undue negative portrayal of the forces in London's Oksana, that movies also created a bit of controversy. Funds from being gay is needed to be transferred. Supreme Court rejects request.

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Yeah, basically, PMK fund is actually a private trust that has been set up with the prime minister as a trustee. And I guess I'm. How much? Well, yeah, and a lot of public sector unions have given their CSR money here. Yeah. And there was an NGO known as the Centre for Policy Interest Litigation.

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They filed a petition that they should come under RTI because they were refusing to the trustees were refusing to give any details on the money in the balance. And amazing. Can you imagine?

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And the Supreme Court said, that's my money. It's got a lot of money. It's got a lot of the specific. One week everyone was coming up with this announcement that we've donated this money that might be in case, you know, it was like it had topped 10000 course.

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But the case in amazing media was specific because they wanted the money transferred to the in the National Disaster Response Fund because that is audited and you get details out in the public.

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But nobody retired from international cricket terrorists involved in the murder of Genki BJP leader. Family members killed six cops.

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This is the third such incident in the last month. And, you know, this is those BJP leaders who were killed by the militants who allegedly killed them have now been killed. But I mean, these are like claims you always make in the Bangalore violence, said EuroParl.

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Government has taken a leaf out of Eugene Adenhart government's book, and they've said that they're going to make writers pay for property damage.

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The headline says that it uses a Supreme Court order which could maybe discuss this a little bit to figure out the legality of military. When you just attach properties are not without a due process, but that is something we will discuss.

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I Sokolova has resigned as election commissioner that he was announced he some extreme adverse financial crisis. There's been a pretty gruesome case of rape in order for this was a 17 year old girl was raped and killed. That also I mean, and there's been a bunch of other rape cases also that there's a 13 year old girl also who's news also. There's then eighty one point six one like people have been affected in Bihar, floods. This has really not got much coverage, though.

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I saw Abbie reporting a bit on this and we shall probably discuss a little more detail next week.

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Went on then joins us now to figure out what exactly is happening there.

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But it's quite bad. Homes flooded, families out, 41 like you have lost a job in India due to covered pandemic numbers. Meeteetse, 61. LAX's a new report by the Asian Development Bank, an international labour organisation.

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These are salaried people, by the way. Yeah, yeah. No, this is not the salary. This is another report, the salary reported by another agency which says five million salaried people have lost their job. This is this is a report that is basically looking at the youth, the 1294 age group, and that's another report. So, I mean, it's at a different level, five million.

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And just in the month of June, that report said that just within one month, five million people had lost their jobs. And there's another report by the Asian Development Bank which says that the pandemic has pushed people to poverty in a way that I mean, it's set back India in this country, especially because even before the pandemic, one of the chief causes of people falling back into poverty was medical expenses.

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And now those are sort of the short term.

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So we shall discuss some of that. And we have a lot of meals. In fact, we've got some 18, 20 meals this week. So you will understand if I can't read all of them out. But let's start with this entire Facebook controversy. Pratik, do come in. You have, in fact, been rather critical of the platform and there are other the WhatsApp, Sando, Instagram, etc.. I don't believe in the first media ramble.

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You had said that they can do a lot more than they do now. Yes.

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This particular incident, I'm sure it doesn't surprise you as it didn't surprise many of us, but it's the first evidence. Is that right?

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Has there been such evidence before that they are partial to the right wing hit, or is it that they are not partial to anyone here? They are just that the lax on any kind of hate their speciality.

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And see, the thing is, in Indian politics, if you look at from a political sphere, whether it is BJP, Congress, let's even put an M, etc., the fact is that there is more hate which which is coming from the right wing quarters in terms of hate speech on social media. And I have consistently observed I have been following social media very closely since 2013, which is one of the reason why all this was started, because we saw that there was this enormous influx of videos with a very sectarian tone, which.

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Being used to polarise people and the few of the stories that we started off with back in 2013 were all videos and images being used to attack Muslims in India. I think that they are responsible for a variety of crimes, a trend which continues till today. And we have consistently seen that Facebook does an extremely poor job of not just taking down this kind of hate, but they also are very they are not being hard enough on features and accounts which which are propagating such hate in a very organized manner.

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Right. I would like to put out a disclosure that Facebook is the lead sponsor of one of the sponsors of the media, Rambla annual event, which is also going to happen next month, which is this time a digital only event.

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So this is a disclosure. I think it's important we put out there and we've had a relationship with them for the last, I think, five years on some smaller or bigger events or the other. But it is event related.

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We have a partnership with them. Wilcox for the media, Rambold, in regards to the founders and the producers and the creators of the fest, the media, a partnership with them, an equal partnership. So and that is done through the sponsors and partners as opposed to news laundry dot com, which is run only through subscribers. I'd like to make that distinction very clear.

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Now, one thing that we've been aware of is that Facebook, even before this whole right left kind of debate started, it rewards of up to six things that get a response and emotional response, which is usually anger and hate.

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Right. So they have been reluctant to act on such angry or hateful posts. Even Facebook, on becoming a family and friends space became a ranting and hateful space. Ironically, Twitter, which is the political platform, has done more to stem this. Now, has there been evidence like this? Wall Street Journal has said that I've spoken to several employees and they've even gotten an official response. Has there been any such report that actually clearly puts out such evidence before this critique?

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There has been one report. So I'm aware of at least one more person who who works in Facebook and had deep ties with Mr Modi prior to 2014 and was in fact running a propaganda page, running more than one propaganda page leading to 2014. There has never been a public disclosure of the same. I think more will come out about this in in the coming days. I think there are other people who are working on different stories, but that he's one more individual who was who is pretty powerful.

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And I think Mr Coranderrk Guha wrote an article before 2019 elections where he puts out all the details. But I think more will come out as a people are following up on these things and more will come out. So this there is definitely they are definitely and I don't think this is limited to Facebook at this point of time. If you want to do business in India, you have to cozy up to the government. That is that is how it is.

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And just like media organisations which are cozying up to the government and doing only and something that slowly highlights day in and day out because of the business model and everything, just just the way media is cozying up to the government or these companies are also cozying up to the government and are doing things which benefit the government because because they in return, they they get a variety of favours, like the government directly promoting these platforms in various events and things like that.

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Actually, not just that. And, you know, I would like Maharaj and Minister to come in and share your thoughts on this. I think a few things. I think the fact that Facebook is deeply problematic on hate speech as a given, I don't think anyone can. But I think what happens when a narrative like this takes over is that a lot of and of course, people like Pratik and Alton's have been doing a fantastic job in sifting fact from fiction because everything gets clubbed together on Key was hired in 2011 or 12 and the UPA was in power.

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So, yeah, 11. Correct.

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And so at that time, clearly Modi was not really on the horizon. So it was not her ties that made that possible. Although, you know, people at her level I'm sure, are close to people across the spectrum. So that is one of the things that, you know, goes out. I have seen another tweet by someone who used to be a journalist and I would assume fairly responsibility. Don't repeat those lies who have claimed that another employee of Facebook who I have known for years, actually used to run websites, somebody who I mean, he's a recent hire.

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And I know that's not true because I know what that person does. Not that I agree with what that person does because he works at a corporate house. Doing corporate communications is basically parent planting stories. But but he did not vote for Modi.

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So a lot of you know, in the whole hallah, if anything goes has is also happening in this case. And what Pathic said, well, forget the small events that are being promoted. Facebook is promoted by the government.

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What? Sepi, in fact, there's an article today on it in the Times of India, if you read the Times of India and the business pages that the Supreme Court has a case in the Supreme Court thinks Facebook of WhatsApp should not be allowed WhatsApp because they'll have monopolies because there's no I'm sorry, the Supreme Court Competition Commission of India.

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These is everything that the Supreme Court will.

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So this might end up there or there is. The CCI says that there is no such thing. But if Facebook gets into the payment system, then it will be I mean, it'll make more money than anything else. And the only thing that is blocking them right now is regulation. So you understand the stakes. That is the level at which the stakes are, which is basically what Politico's talking about. But, Manisha, Meraj, what do you think of this and what is the way out?

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I just want to intervene for a second. And, you know, the person you are talking about, I can say 100 percent certainty that he did it on websites. And I have evidence for the same.

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It's just that he was in his corporate job. Was it a side gig? It is very murky. But as it was, that was that cooperation deployed to do this.

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Was he doing it to the side like thing on the side? Like, because I know what his job was at the time.

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There is a possibility that the corporation was also involved. But he definitely there were meetings which I have, which happened at the corporation office as well. So I cannot I'm still working on this, but I can say 100 percent certainty that he was running OK, these propaganda websites.

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Also, another fact that has come out is that even before BJP came to power, BJP and Modi especially, they were like the Facebook's biggest client in India. Yeah. As far as money spent, the biggest political fallout, is that right? But it is a political event. Right.

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But, you know, they were the biggest political challenge for advertising because overall, you know, so at least at least if you look at the analysis of 2019 elections, because Facebook recently, you know, started putting out numbers about who's advertising how. So the the thing BJP does is that they advertise a certain amount. And I think all parties are doing that. They advertise a certain amount in an official capacity. So BJP, let's say Facebook, dot com slash BJP for India, you know, their official page or Facebook dot com slash IMT comes, I forget what is the official page, but but they will advertise and that money will show up.

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But then they are paid just like mentioned with Namor, OK, which are not associated directly. Got it.

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So that doesn't, that doesn't come into that. The political culture basically like the fund the election. But was Yamashiro. Yes.

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And props to you, you know BJP is using a huge number of proxies to do this kind of funding. And if you only look at this nation with normal and I think have posted an article on it, and antecedence, if you just look at the culture that nation with no is doing it is enormous. And there's no accountability as to where that money is coming from.

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So that said, before we get into the discussion, this one point which like it has become kind of a walk thing to say, OK, Facebook is acting against right wing hate and then left wing hate. What exactly is left tunicates everywhere in the world?

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You see India, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Europe use the hate, the kind of hate that will kill the world community will send them to concentration camps.

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That's entirely coming from the right wing. Yes, there are loonies on the left who will say these things, but the manner, the organized manner, it's being done by the right wing. I don't see any evidence like especially on social media from the left wing that anywhere. So this comparison, OK, they are going after this. That is very facetious. So that said, another thing that often gets ignored when we talk about this is that Facebook, Google, all of these, that essentially essentially they are giant corporations and they only ever care about is their bottom line.

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If they're going to make money, they'll cozy up to everybody. Today, there's an article in TIME magazine which says, like Facebook's role in the Myanmar or India, genocide is like pretty well documented. Yeah. And when the rule came out, they did an investigation. They took down some pages and they said will cooperate with the investigation. The country, African country, Gambia, they have gone to The Hague, the International Criminal Court, to take the Myanmar government to account for the and they have gone to face the first went to Twitter and to Facebook saying, cooperate with us, give us the information you have about this for the investigation.

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Twitter apparently complied. Facebook has now gone to court and saying we won't do it.

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This is a Reuters reporter. This is a Time Time magazine. Time magazine. Right. Right. It's in the Times. Right. Right now.

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I mean, yeah. Just came out this way because, I mean, it's a business. They're running it as a business. As long as it's running as a business, these problems are going to be there. I mean, you can they can put up one rule today. They will moderate this content more. There'll be another rule which will allow something else. As long as they run like this, they'll be like this.

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The only solution is to make them into. Utilities like the campaign has been growing, turn them into public utilities, like electricity companies, like health care facilities, they should be run like that because now more than ever, they are public utilities, even though they pretend they aren't.

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And what that will do is will at least transfer some of the power to the people. Right now, Mark Zuckerberg is Zuckerberg essentially makes all the decisions. I mean, he's like the kind of a dictator of this global empire. So unless you break that model and breaking that model starts from this regulation, effective regulation.

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But also you have to break these companies up. I mean, you can't have these great giant. This is like the British Empire.

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In fact, today, Apple's valuation is that two trillion, which is, I think, a healthy chunk of India's GDP.

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And that is the kind of part you can't I mean, no government can compete against this.

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The only way to do is to break them up, Manisha, expand Facebook, disband the media like they did back in the day. It's like giant corporations, oil corporations.

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Yeah, but to me, what I found really interesting was on kinases complaint. Right after this fiasco, she filed a complaint with the police, which some people erroneously said that a fire has been filed as Northants. You simply pointed. She simply complained and she's named for five people. And she said that these are valid threats. Now, one of them is a journalist who apparently posted the Wall Street Journal article on his wall. And he's listed eight important points from that article.

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And people have responded on that Facebook post. One of the posts says that's more than one. And she cited that, as you know. But the threat at the. Yeah, Moldova, the violent, though, I mean, Facebook is practically sat on a digital genocide in India. And there's another thing which Facebook has pulled down. So which means that they are fully capable because there's one another post by one Himanshu guy who again, has been named in the complaint, and he's called Angioma, you know, some of the old Berkin Jaga, whatever nonsense, very innocuous kind of stuff that you see on Facebook that, you know, you wouldn't even think twice about.

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So Facebook has pulled that post down. So clearly they're very capable of micro, you know, analyzing content and going after what they want to. But when it comes to, you know, women who so many women journalists have complained about rape threats, graphic death threats on Facebook and Facebook has not acted on Instagram, there's now a recent case of that Paul guy was, in fact, exposed that Twitter took down that video.

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But is it still up? But it's up on Instagram not.

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So what happened was that this poll that posted the video saying that system, Baduel, may complain, but you may be Lokomotiv that it can cause an exodus. And it was the longest video I posted 30 seconds of that on Twitter saying that a verified Instagram account is doing this.

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Yeah, he's verified blue tech on Instagram. Yes. And that's where the department is verified is is essential to mention because this person has a history of hate speech. It is not that this is the first time this person is indulging in such objectionable speech. And yet Instagram went ahead and verified because of the quote unquote celebrity status.

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He was also invited. He's the same guy who was on some reality show right on Sony last week.

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But he sits in a car and he uses these repressed women lot. Yes. And he he's part of a bigger gang. If you remember, this young person from the judge was arrested by Mr. Yagisawa who threatened that Joshua Rostand about my Joshua.

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I don't agree with Joshua. And all of these are sort of buddies. And there are more people who, you know, this is the new thing. And again, while we may be focusing on Facebook here, I think all the platforms are equally responsible. Even YouTube has given a lot of space to hate Twitter. I can name several accounts off the top of my head, for example. Why is it still there on Twitter? There are so many people that are pretty.

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Why is it still there on Twitter? There are so many people who put out hate in a very sort of organized manner and they still find space. And I'm saying this, you know, I'm not making a judgment call on freedom of speech, et cetera. But if current accounts in the US, for example, Alex Jones, etc, have been taken down these networks without them being limited to one platform in the US, in fact, you're right that the standards there they are.

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In fact, that's one of the things they should touch upon.

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So many excellent accounts there have been taken down. Facebook has taken down networks, for example, Iranian networks which have which have targeted us and things like that. Facebook has done a lot more. So where does all these companies, which are based in California, have Facebook, Twitter, Google? Why do they call themselves global company? They actually have a very narrow view. They don't understand the politics that is happening. At least the key decision makers.

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They don't understand what.

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Policy changes on the platform and can affect different countries. So when Zuckerberg says that they are not going to fact check, this happened about a couple of months ago when Trump put out certain tweets and regarding mail in ballots and said that mail in ballots is a scam or something to that effect. And Twitter went ahead and fact checked that and put a disclaimer saying that these tweets have, in fact, checked. And then they gave this elaborate you know, if you click on the classic thing, it takes you to these articles which show why Trump's tweet is not true at all.

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At the same point in time, people reached out to Facebook and asked them, why are you not fact checking? Because the same content exists on your platform as well. And Zuckerberg response to that was that political speech is the most scrutinized speech. Media organizations look at political speech with a fine and hence we don't think that we need to fact check. Now, this is what they think. This is a person who's sitting in Menlo Park in California and he doesn't know, for example, how media operates in India and in India.

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Political speech of those who are powerful is definitely not scrutinized the way it is probably in the US or in the U.K.. So the problem is that these people sitting in California make global policies with very little world view of how politics affects certain countries and especially those who are who have authoritarian regime. So that's problem number one. You know, coming back to this whole thing, this person clearly puts out a and because his videos go so viral, though, you know, Facebook and Instagram, they benefit from that.

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You know, their old model is this reality. So that is the only reason why this person still exists. Otherwise, what is the value that a person who uses ten thousand expletives in every single video or every single post that he posts, why is that person Austenland?

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Forget the abuse he poses very direct threats, you know, after threatening. Yes. Video after video imposed after.

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And it's not easy to get a blue tech on Instagram, by the way. I mean, it's not say you understand or doesn't have one. Yeah, exactly.

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I mean, there you have it. All news, not one. And this guy has one. And I do agree with I mean, Pratik and Meraj on what they've said about I mean, in one way, I guess Facebook will only be as good as the country that they function in. And it's true that when it comes to hate speech, ah, standards are so low and they've plummeted over the past four years, I would say, because if you go on television news channels, I mean the kind of stuff that is said about people, communities, the daily sort of slander of people, or even if you look at politicians.

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So I think Facebook is also lax here because you look at you look at, you know, the mall in the country. So I think some of that has happened.

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But we need to judge them for at least the facade of the global company that they portray themselves to be, especially after the Rohingya genocide. I mean, there's clear evidence that Facebook, you know, was used, that it played a major role. And there has been vast criticism, research on Facebook's role. They've refused to submit themselves to scrutiny. But this is something that they can't I mean, even they haven't denied, and especially after that, for them to be so lax in other countries, I think they need to be judged harshly and especially for the fact that they put up in Western democracies.

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Yeah, you know, they had a Twitter had restricted Trump's tweet where he had made some false claim, political.

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Tell us what that claim was. And they had actually taken down a tweet of Jared Kushner, who is, I think, Trump's son in law, for putting out some false tweet. They had actually pulled it down here. Forget Modi. They won't even be able to pull down a tweet of somebody. BARTRA Yeah. So the standards are clearly different that in here. And well, at least Facebook has said that they're trying to address this problem of not understanding the various cultural sensitivities, the hate in different countries through Facebook oversight board, which technically can overrule Mark Zuckerberg because the criticism was that even the board of governors overruled him.

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And this has, I think, 20 people from around the world. One of them is an Indian. I think right now he's the head of a law school. I'm not sure which one of the Bangalore law school. He's a very accomplished person, but it remains to be seen whether this oversight board can actually overrule Mark Zuckerberg, right? No, I don't think that authority or power has been exercised yet. But, yeah, I mean, the double standards are too obvious and across platforms.

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Another thing that that needs to be spoken about is or the question that has to be raised is that who is the only head of state who has been given the kind of audience that Mr Modi got in Facebook and the chain of events which led to that? This was the same time when Facebook was hoping to announce Facebook, basically Facebook zero in India, and that is when Mr. Modi got this at Facebook headquarters. He was hosted by Mark Zuckerberg himself. And I don't think there is any other world leader who has gotten that kind of audience in.

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Facebook headquarters. Yes, people have gone there, including Trump, and there have been allegations of Zuckerberg and Trump having behind the scenes discussions and all of that, but this was unprecedented. And, of course, right after that, they tried to bring Facebook zero in. At that point in time, I think I believe that whatever civil action happened with thousands and thousands of emails that went to that force, probably the government to take back that decision of allowing Facebook zero in India.

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But at that point of time, my political understanding and my political understanding has developed since then, especially with the Facebook and how it operates. So I'm not exactly sure why that happened. But every country where Facebook, Tiago Vende, for example, Myanma Facebook, you know, what it essentially does is that, you know, Facebook decides that Facebook and a bunch of other websites will be you can access them for free.

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Basically, they're going through they are sort of Facebook becomes the Internet, basically.

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Yes, Facebook becomes the Internet and that and anything other than those websites, you have to pay for it. Of course, in countries like India and Bangladesh, Pakistan, Philippines, so many other countries, Sri Lanka or African countries where Facebook went, you know, we will not be for something beyond what is free typically. So we will not be that top up. And what happened was Facebook became Internet for these people, the Myanma military. They created thousands of accounts to put out aid against Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar because Facebook zero was what was Internet that became the reality of people and which was hugely responsible for the exodus of people.

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I mean, just to button up, in fact, I mean, there's a documentary on this where people were using Facebook like they use Google News. So they would debruin. Yes. And, you know, they would read whatever Facebook posts would be there. And that's that's how their opinions were being shaped.

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And in India, what has become the equivalent of Facebook, even though Facebook never came to India, what time has become the equivalent, if you remember this case, where in that time this man had the Bengali labor Bengali. Yes. And he posted it. Yes. And BBC did a story on them. They went to that town and they they spoke to multiple people. And this was not the only person who was radicalized. There were so many other people who were extremely radicalized based on the content that they see every day.

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Their their phones were filled with videos of cow slaughter, et cetera.

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And this is again this is again that I have seen again and again for those of our audience who are wondering what it means that Facebook is the Internet, it is basically that lets you get a preloaded app on your phone. Then you click on that and through that you can access whatever Internet you want, anything else you have to pay for.

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So that is what Pratik means instead of Facebook becomes the Internet. But before we move on to the social unsent case, I just want to also touch upon this one aspect that in Australia, really, the lobbying war has been run by Rupert Murdoch, who is probably more powerful in Australia, is The Wall Street Journal is Rupert Murdoch's one of his many media outlets, as is Fox.

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So, yeah, and it's quite it was just want to mention is quite hilarious that all these people as well it as left wing, it is a left conspiracy like boss. He's the boss of right wing. Yeah. He created Fox too.

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Yes. And Wall Street journalism and the in-house paper of the right wing economics. Yes, exactly.

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So, you know, this news item that appeared in most, you know, news platforms that Australia has passed a law. I think it's already passed it or it is in the process of passing it, passing it, that Google, Facebook and digital platforms could be forced to pay hundreds and millions of dollars in fines if they fail to comply with the news media bargaining code released by Australia's competition regulator on Friday. You can read the article in The Guardian dot com.

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What this means is that now all these digital platforms have to share their revenue with legacy players.

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And what percentage like is it? I'm not sure exactly what the percentage is and it's not even lower yet. But the speculation is that that lobbying war has been won by Rupert Murdoch and in the media also, Murdoch is more powerful than Zuckerberg. So it is highly likely that if this whole thing happens there, Murdoch will prevail. Who is the father of right wing hate in America as much as permissable through Fox and stuff? So I think from small outfits like Oz point of view, the best people to actually take on digital giants is legacy media, unfortunately.

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And while they are part of the problem. But I would rather be in battle with legacy media because I think that's a battle I can win. I'm not sure I can win a battle with digital giants with particular views on that.

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I mean, yeah, you can get Facebook to pay for all of that, but at the end of the day, they have become a monopoly. And that is what is a bigger threat, the fact that they are become a monopoly. And we have to depend like media organisations have to depend on Facebook and Google for the world to get all the traffic. And they. There, if you remember, a few years back, Google tweaked their algorithm and there are some local media organizations and they all came down because the traffic to their websites completely stopped.

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So them having such overarching control on the Internet infrastructure and the way Internet traffic flows and very little transparency, accountability, that is going to be a problem. You can get them to pay and all of that. I don't know how much percentage they're going to pay, what is what is what is a contract, even a contract that it will be. But until the time we don't have our independent audience networks, for example, we get some amount of traffic or get some amount of traffic from its own app.

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And we are working on certain things so that the traffic increases so that we are not dependent on these people for for the traffic that we get. I think all media organizations need to come together and create independent audience network, which is not dependent on Facebook, Facebook. Why should we take money from Facebook? We should have our independent business model. Facebook is an audience network. It is not. You know, we are missing an audience network with an advertising network and that is where the problem is.

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Our audience networks need to be independent. Our advertising networks need to be independent. Subscriptions need to be independent.

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So it's a very good point. I mean, that's a valid point. Just to give you guys an idea, a lot of our traffic does come from Google search and stuff. So one way, of course, you guys can contribute is that just spread the word of people like old news websites to all your groups, you know, through your WhatsApp. So that one doesn't have to only depend on search engine optimization and other such on Facebook and Google.

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So, you know, you as an audience can also, you know, do the neutron bomb kind of formula of one person, you know, recruit for who to call for each like that and also share stuff like if you like, if you read something, you like it.

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If you want something you like, if you heard something like shared it. I think that shared on your WhatsApp groups, it kind of helps us on that note.

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I don't that since but was talking more an app. I was wondering like, wouldn't it be nice if at least India could have like an app where all independent news organizations like Zomato of independent.

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Yes, absolutely. There have there have to be more news. So you have an app where you can create one.

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I mean, let's see. I mean, there's going to be that problem that but even an app like Vida's News Lottery not have an app right now. You know, the process was expensive. And in the past, when we want to get people to pay to an app, Apple wants 30 percent of the money and because of podcasts and much of our content is behind it.

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Why is that? Why is that? Because Google controls it, right? Why should Google get 30 percent? Don't want I don't know what happened recently.

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I'm sorry, but I don't want Apple. How much is Google, Judge Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam.

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And what happened recently was that we had a donation button on our app and Google took down our app and then we had to go to this whole loop of trying to do that. Look, we are not for profit company and now they allow a donation button, but you can only pay through their payment API. You cannot be otherwise. So they have so much control over every aspect of publishing, whether it is audience, whether it is payment gateway and things like that, that it has become the these are big monopolies and these are things like, you know, them being with some amount of advertising.

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That is not the solution.

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Yeah. And also, they aren't just like regular monopolies. They're like multi monopolies rolled into one. Like earlier you had an oil monopoly, you had a steel monopoly. Now you have Google, which is which is a monopoly and such which which has a pretty much a monopoly in videos through YouTube, which has this has this thing also the payment thing saying with Facebook and has WhatsApp, there's Facebook, there's Instagram, suja, and so only devices for them to be broken up into parts.

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And so let's see how this goes with an interesting time.

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So I just want to discuss this whole thing on social and think Rajput Manisha will just give us the context. But I would like to read this one email. He doesn't want to be named. He is a public sector employee and he says, my company can't dictate. I'm not going to write letters to editors. Just imagine maybe someday you could talk about the Official Secrets Act and the fact that a large amount of the educated population cannot contribute to political discourse because their job prevents them from doing so.

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Really, they can't even write an email or a letter to the some of the emails that I've gotten from ages. And they have said you might like it, but I mean, a public like you can see once you have such rules, even for some private organizations, I mean, you have that cross.

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I mean, that's one of the reasons why the news platforms don't come to the media, because they have been told by their organization that you can't speak.

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But I mean, I think that is a more complicated discussion. I think that is very context based. But this particular individual who clearly is educated. It and all that has been a rather long will. First of all, subscribers try to keep him in short, because we are getting more and more e-mails every week and I'd like to include as many as possible. So the public sector employee who cannot be named, I can't include your full mail, but this bit was of concern to me.

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You have said that you have been very critical of the use laundry panel after panel, that we guys completely, outright rejecting any CBI inquiry actually want outright rejecting it. We were just amused by it and now concerned by the kind of narrative that is built around it. So you have said, quote, your presumption that there isn't any foul play or that he was murdered by the and then you have taken four names is based on what evidence exactly? Questionmark, unquote.

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I am surprised that you are saying that. What is it evidence that these four people haven't murdered him? It's like asking me what is my evidence that I haven't murdered him? What is the evidence that they have murdered him? I mean, you can't prove a negative. You can't prove a negative.

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I mean, I'm surprised you also have gone on to say, how can you definitively say that all rumors going on are completely false? If I to get capital, if the allegations of the Shah Suleiman's gang rape, you have said involving again, you named four people were true, partially or completely, would it not be very easy for them to suppress?

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I mean, you are saying something that there's no evidence of. I mean, this is based on what set forward that these four people. So it's like asking me that. What is the evidence that Meraj Monisha and I had not ruled out some murder that happened yesterday? I mean, I don't know what the evidence that we have at this, I think is the power of what this narrative has achieved.

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Maneesha, you want to just I think we should be a bit I don't blame the gentleman who's written to us because what has happened in this case and what is deeply disturbing to me, I haven't seen anything like this, at least in the past eight years.

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Now, what he's talking about, this conspiracy that involves, you know, other Gitari and the Sallyanne who, you know, she managed one film for something that put this conspiracy off, the fact that she went to a party and then she was raped and then she was murdered and those same sort of people then murdered.

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So chancing Rajput first originated on a Facebook post. I'm linking a piece to this piece Redit Mr. Basu, please eat it and please hold. Other people will believe it. So this is why this guy corporation took it.

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Now he says that he's his only claim to fame is that he's a Facebook activist and he started insufficent that he's written this whole long post with this conspiracy theory, that he's also said that he was murdered with his dogs buried and all that.

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And right at the top of the post written, who will be there? Maybe something is fiction. And this is not fictional. Also now this guy is invited on the republic, are not listening to this guy. He mounts the same thing without naming because obviously they can be defamation. And then Arnab says, oh, my God, this is this is a sensational claim. My God, this is this is very concerning. Bihar, please take note.

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Same thing is regulated by people acting in times now that, you know, there has been insinuation that there was a party and get when they now imagine this guy who's in this post and we've spoken to that guy in our report, Pratik, the reporter called this guy up and asked him, what's the proof? Who told you this? He said, you know, the sheikh, if anyone can convince somebody in that post, I said, how do you know?

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He said, Mujica is in Gujarat, remember there? So we asked him, who told you this? Somebody from Gujarat that somebody auditions for? And he said, no, somebody from Gujarat posted it. I read it. And then I added all information I had and my own investigation. Now, this is this is a person who's clearly out of a job or I don't know what or he just wants quick fame.

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He's even saying that Mossad and the FBI and the that you don't I've international organizations have come to me investigating this case.

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So political jokingly said who? FBI, Interpol role, Mossad. He's like how people like those.

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So I don't blame this guy because this conspiracy theory on Facebook is goes viral, whatever. But he finds space on prime time. You bet.

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But, you know, my concern is that now AI also for those of you saying the CBN case Lélia, the CBI is going to be investigating this Hassan Rajput case and not that this case.

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Yes. So people think that doesn't prove anything ambitious.

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L'Esperance parents have come out. They have distraught with the fact imagine you lose your daughter and then you have conspiracy's on her rape all over media and all over social media. Imagine what that does to a family. They've come and said, please leave us alone. And that's the end of it. This case that CBS investigating is based on social Rajputs father's complained Aundrea.

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And the Supreme Court has said that the Bihar police is within law to ask the CPS to take this over and which is what's happened. So I think it's really of grave concern that we have reached a stage where rational people and, you know, a wonderful subscriber from the public sector unit is not the only one.

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I have spoken to rational people in the last week or so who are saying but weren't both his kneecaps broken and he had a dog in his neck.

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I said, where did you get this information? None of what is the proof that these people haven't killed him? I said, since when has this country become. The proof that I haven't like nobody's what's happening on television, like my mother also. She also said that, you know, either way, maybe this is but we'll find out now because, you know, he may be lying, but what about everyone else? That's right.

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It's true that you say the same thing again and again and again, and then you start to notice what kind of fact checking and myth busting on this that you have been inundated with.

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And how effective is it if this has become like an acceptable you know what if we have done some amount of fact checking, but we have not done much of it.

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And personally, I have been completely disinterested in this issue just because it is so ridiculous. But the fact is that the question that you raise, how is that so many people are starting to believe that that is because every media organization is talking about it. I was just looking at a tweet which says that NDTV is talking about something. I mean, even in the midst of enormous attention where this whole thing is happening in Supreme Court. So when there is so much talk about such a such an issue, people will start to be OK.

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Everybody's talking. There must be some truth to it. Why is everybody talking about it? And that has happened again and again. I think there was a case called Biketawa where this Connecticut officer who had committed suicide and made a huge issue out of it, saying that he was killed by some mafia. And I don't know if it became a huge issue. And even if you go back, it may not be the exact analogy. But back in 2014, every media organization was talking about the job model.

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Nobody talks about it. And everybody believed that was either some sort of a magical place. And now nobody talks about the job model at all. So you can do this mass propaganda through media and get people to believe certain things. And I don't see why they wouldn't start believing in these these conspiracy theories, because everybody is talking about them, whether in a positive manner or negative manner. That is all that is being spoken about in media.

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And I mean and some of it to me doesn't seem it's not just concerned fans or citizens. Some of it seems really organized because something like over the past one month, there are so many pages that have sprung up Sissako Insaaf YouTube channels, which with four videos that are only talking about shit like this.

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You know, I was I was reading to look at the Twitter trends, click on any Twitter trend, which has to do with this guy and just look at them, each one, all the account, all the accounts which have hundred final tweets, they are all anonymous, know something coming out them, not the verified account, but some of the common out, some unlove. So these are all imposter accounts. Yeah, good. And parody accounts.

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And they are the ones who are trending these hashtags. Every time I checked and I've checked at least five, six times all the trends around this issue and have been more it's these. So this is definitely an organized attempt because these people, from my experience, they get paid to tweet these things because they'll tweet on hajat things and they're getting paid to make this issue mainstream, to get a trend on Twitter and things like that.

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Republicans and more than 30 debates on this year. So they've debated this for a whole month, ignoring, for example, you know, stories on people losing their jobs, on pandemic, on floods, on rape. There's been complete inundation. And of course, I've never studied it, but every other channel played catch up. And you've had on top of that social media. So I don't really blame people for believing it. But it's very scary because at the end of the day, if you look at also the protagonist of this whole conspiracy idea, there is one allegation against her by the parents, which is also Bettmann to suicide and whatever embezzlement of funds and all that has to be investigated.

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But the kind of vitriol against all things that are being said about her that she was you know, she was that's also the arrest right now.

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You know, those are the kind of harsh even for the parents, you know, to lose someone and then have such things being said about you. So it's it's actually very scary. I haven't I haven't felt this overwhelmed by media coverage, even though we watched so much of media coverage. But this is something that it makes you realize the power of media and how something like this can just be spun, can take a life of its own and become something completely.

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Actually, the thing that has shocked me is that, you know, all these things are in a movie like you see what that film Village Peepli Live or, you know, you would see they were caricatures of people who were so immoral, who had no sense of ethics at all. Like anything goes, you know, characters from films. You didn't ever think being in the business you'd ever encounter someone like that. Now I meet people, some who I have known for years, who really don't give a shit yet.

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Other hashtag, RSG and our children are rare. Have you thought about what that means for her, for her family?

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I don't know these girls who cry. You know, every time there's a violence against one of this report, I watch this and Jini and Rubick Novica schedules the kind of nonsense. So I think that. Because that's a lucrative career and that's what I'm saying, so I think this whole thing for money, I mean, just amazing stuff means.

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But what I don't get is why all this?

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I don't I mean, I have got the whole idea is that the only is to discredit one is I mean, you'll have to check that it has a lot of parties and therefore they're doing it, too, is it'll become an election, be hot. And now with that. But this is a d.g of Bihar police who has said they got Geikie students who are bullied, then it's probably a political issue and they'll milk it politically. So, yeah, I mean, I have no idea.

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But yeah, I mean, to me specifically, the DeShazo Lambert was just outrageous because you've you've pratley name politicians and, you know, other actors. You accuse them of rape and murder. And this is not what we do. Primetime news. It's just a complete abdication of whatever journalistic hold things have changed is like when I was a new Streck.

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I mean, I'll talk about this conspiracy theory because it is fairly innocuous and it's not. But this is just one we used to come across with many. So one was I don't know whether many of you had heard it and people who wanted to believe continues to say the confidence didn't pick up. Bardia is actually Nargis Endoscopy 2.0, which is Viraj kaput. Profit, went into Kaputt, wanted to marry her and quickly got married to Rajesh Khanna. You see, her nose is like Madu of like Nargus.

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You see others like grad's. You see, I was like with Nainital here, you know, Bollywood mezey. I'm giving you this one because it was laughable.

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I would never do a story on Newstrike saying is Dem political party Raj Kapoor and love lovechild guy is such a it is not so hard to prove. It is so not.

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How can I prove it is not so now I'm telling you one, I can tell you many other theories that we had. I don't know. Many of you may not be old enough to remember when I was in fact there was this one huge set of raids when this and casing who finds of a set of innovative finance commissioner hit no matter which government comes in. But he's there in some official capacity. I think he was a revenue secretary or something at the time.

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And those bunch of raids, Modred Dikshit seeable like Bollywood is rated Kica six characteristics because a lot of money.

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Oh, lots of theories going around. It's a slippery Kyuki ex didn't do why this favour of so-and-so was getting married and ex wanted to move it out.

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Yeah, all these judicial fucking theories used to we did not go on it and say, you know, this is what has happened is my mother, he's been raided and all such theories have been happening since I started reporting in 1995.

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But till now we did not come out and say about yet. Hiria but are you going to say so. That is the difference.

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Now they they're even going beyond that. I mean they run visuals, videos, photos and say we can't verify this, but this is what is up.

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But I think the most exasperating thing is what happened. Been then says that prove it. It's not. So I'm at a loss of words. I don't know how to counter that. So how do you know it's not? I think so.

[00:52:51]

Any more thoughts you want to share, Pratik, before we let you go? Thank you for your time. You've given us over an hour. Yeah, no, no.

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I think that is a I'm seriously not I don't even talk about this issue and I do other things.

[00:53:03]

So, guys, I do support Pratik as well. Old news dot in the dot com, pretty in its opinion. So art news dot and they do some fantastic fact checking. It is really committed, very small team. So do support them. And thank you for supporting us. Those of you who do and those of your continuous podcast of Free to Clean, then let's give out. We're taking it back inside the world and a new website is up and ready.

[00:53:27]

And before you leave us pathic, you have any recommendations of any great article, report, film series that you think will enrich the lives of our listeners?

[00:53:36]

I think we should be looking at more and more about surveillance, capitalism, and I think readers should read more about it, about how well we talk about the issue of privacy for hate and misinformation. I think the issue of privacy is also very important and how these giant corporations are sucking in so much private data. And I think other than educating our sense of how to make sure that the information that we consume is authentic, we also need to figure out how to ensure that we are leaking out as little private information as possible.

[00:54:12]

So maybe I can have a longer discussion on this for its audience at some point in time.

[00:54:18]

Maybe we should we should do a let's talk about on this. So thanks, Pathic, have a good day and keep doing what you're doing, man.

[00:54:24]

Thank you. OK, thanks. Bye bye. Now I'd like to read a bunch of other emails, but one more point that the subscriber, had he spoken about safety zoom and I don't want to argue my position on the spectrum, but I guess it lies somewhere closer to home. In London's Allseas, we're going to Independence of News London. You've said that I'm sold on the idea of individual subscription, but we have seen how general counsel cooperate to launder money by the rich and powerful.

[00:54:48]

What protection have you ensured maintaining independence, senatorial sanctity in such a case?

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How do you know you're not laundering? So the prove it the merits and demerits of hierarchical steps to. Model one is it's basically those of you who can afford to pay more. You know, we ask for more and then they get access to things like a little chat box and stuff, but everybody gets access to the content. Even the paywall content, all the subscribers, although just over 20 percent of our content is paywall, the guarantee of independent voices independent of any financial incentives through advertisers, corporations, governments happens through a model.

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But yes, you know, as long as the board of directors, that is just maybe you know me, your mother, what, two or three of us you can say.

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I've spoken about this a little earlier. I think three or four podcasts ago. We are working hopefully by the I mean, I was hoping I could do it this year, but because of covid and all sorts of things, I have explained that model in a little bit of detail.

[00:55:43]

If you can go back and check out that podcast.

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I'm sorry, I don't remember which episode it was that how we're trying to, you know, change and then into a model where the board will consist of someone from the employees, where they will have a sizable chunk of the shares and a bunch of super subscribers from among people like you who will also get representation.

[00:56:01]

It's a hybrid of what Reddit did with, you know, giving shares to subscribers and Guardian having a trust for the employees. So, I mean, when we have that figured out, I will share it with you. But even that doesn't ensure that it'll be completely independent. You can reduce compromise. You cannot eliminate it. It's like I keep giving the same example.

[00:56:21]

During the days of the financial instruments that were created during the insane years of the early 2000s to the late 2000s, many quants thought that they could eliminate risk, which is when they came up with the subprime mortgages.

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You can't eliminate risk, as we learned. You can try to minimize it. And the moment you think you've eliminated it, it comes and falls on your head. You cannot eliminate bias. You cannot eliminate compromise. You can minimize it. And that is what we will try.

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And every future model will hopefully minimize it and reduce it more and more and more.

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So that's the idea. But thank you for your suggestions on safety. And sorry, this is one quote you've said, however, the fact that liberals fail to see that they are making themselves weak by picking on each other rather than uniting ourselves and fighting the machine is beyond me when I see gay and the little. But it makes you want to shoot myself in the head. Call them out. Bring them in first. Then bicker about whose liberalism is like this.

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I completely agree with you on this.

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I don't understand what you're saying. Is that FDM, he says when I see Gayborhood or the Litterbugs, it blows my mind that how can you, you know, be a part of this. She said you have to bring them in first and then you can keep fighting on who's representing people on this.

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I completely agree with you. In fact, Vilma's last monologue was on this. I find this really fascinating that and this is not just true for the American liberals even here. The whole test of purity of liberalism is something that I find deeply amusing. And I see that with a lot of friends of mine and people I know. And I don't think that serves anyone's purpose at all. And it just makes the liberal side weak. I am I agree with you on that.

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Anyone has a view on that country or. No, not really.

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All right. But this isn't I mean, this isn't a unique thing that you have always had people who were oppressed and oppressed at the same time. Right. I mean, the greatest example is the class system. Absolutely.

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I have a few more emails, and like I said, I would not be reading complete emails because of just the amount of emails I've got. And I will read out the names of the non subscribers who have emailed us.

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But I'm not going to read your emails because I'm not catechesis subscriber K.M. Panikar, but many of cable Parlier. But I will not read it out here. This is from Veny, a student. My name is Venette from Karola. I'm a recent subscriber. I have a few queries regarding safety zem.

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It's for Mignot in regard to the recent and the liberal Abushagur, so I will share this with Mignot. But he's not here. But what you basically have said is that you have cited safety. Zimm is contrary to liberal values since it cuts down the scope of new ideas in discussion. However, looking at the same aspect from mental health perspective, I find it a bit problematic. The stigma surrounding mental health is slowly being gotten away with and is gaining space for discussion among the people due to liberal values inculcated in society.

[00:59:01]

When one rejects a conversation which he or she feels might take a toll on the mental health, shouldn't it be alright to say that no to that condition? If not, wouldn't that be a direct contradiction to the liberal values? I understand that when people use this as an excuse to shield from, every condition becomes problematic. And one can say that safety is against liberal values at that instance, no matter what the case. I don't support council culture.

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The point that I'm trying to bring is Ganzel culture is not exactly the same as denying a conversation is much bigger than that. So she says we shouldn't generalize when I agree, but we should generalize about it.

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One person can decide not to attend such a conversation or participate in it. Council culture is not about that one person. It is about not allowing that conversation to happen. I think that's what council culture is about. OK, this is an email specifically for Meraj, so let me get to this one next. This email from usof, he's an ex subscriber and he says a future subscriber, but he can't do it currently, which is fine. Either you're studying or these economic times are begging us cut costs, which is.

[00:59:57]

But once you are back on your feet, Youssouf, I do hope you will subscribe again, you have said regarding the discussion on Bengaluru writes, I would like to chip in that I completely agree with that. But under discussion and your earlier article on Islam, Muslim liberals have consistently failed to call out the regressive and fanatical nature of these acts without ifs and buts. I thought even your discussion was far too permissive. The current context is not an excuse.

[01:00:20]

The current context is not an excuse. Section 153 and Section 295 of the IPCC. The blasphemy laws were enacted after the killing and riots after someone insulted the prophet. This has happened again and again in respect of the political context. It is the idea that this was excusable because it is provocative Muslim rebels who defend freedom of expression. Even if it was provocative, I'm sure Hindu and Christian would defend the right to someone to insult the gods even if they disagreed with it.

[01:00:44]

With respect to Meraj, I think his weekly slamming of the institution foundation of cost and in society, while disregarding the foundation of violence and coercion and Muslims, it is a big blind spot. The funding from Saudi is a factor, but I would argue the dominant factor is the weak defense of liberal values of Muslims. I say this as someone who worries about the current majoritarianism and has a very religious father. Lastly, Maneesh has a brilliant and I'm cool.

[01:01:05]

Schaller's ha is always missed when not only not a good choice, then it may be that you get it.

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I may disagree with that as a lot, but I think his perspective on Kashmir adds a lot that is missing on most other mainstream channels. Keep doing the great work happy and take Yusuf as a nonce. Since you are a former subscriber and it's just temporary, you have not subscribed. I have read out emails and you promise you'll subscribe again. So Meraj.

[01:01:32]

Thanks USIP. So a couple of things. First, this idea that liberal Muslims, whatever that means, are not going against this against this kind of extremism is not entirely true. As I said last time, also some in fact, some of the most vocal campaigns against this extremism have come from not liberal Muslims, good and good, but religious Muslims like the greatest reform movement that's happening, especially in the subcontinent.

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And it's spread all over the world is the Paris School of Thought, which is completely which completely like delegitimizes this school of thought within the religion, not to liberal values or whatever.

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Basically what they're saying is this is against their sense of Koran. This is against the essence of the Senate of the prophet.

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So those things that are happening, what is against the extremism, the use of religion to engage in extremism and violence?

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About the other thing that there's a context. Of course there's a context. All these things happen within a context why Muslims are doing it like this. They feel insecure, but that doesn't justify it. We said last time also, violence is not justified. Whatever the context, whatever the whatever the reasons, whatever the motives for it, that is not justified at all. So I should make that clear again.

[01:02:45]

Then we have this email, by the way, let me just read out the names of the non subscribers whose emails are here just to tell them that I've read your emails, but I will not be reading them out. Sundeep, you're a subscriber. You have given some suggestions. Thank you for those suggestions. I think some of those we can incorporate some maybe not. Then sunshades. You are also an ex subscriber.

[01:03:06]

You said I'm currently unemployed after my master's and the only thing I liked and have is intellectual analysis of market incentives. He says you were a subscriber, but you are unemployed right now and you will subscribe as soon as you get a job. Thank you. I'll take it. I would appreciate it, he says. Since Hafter often lacked intellectual analysis of market incentives by the first time I've heard of it, then it was right when he mentioned about incentive, which is spot on.

[01:03:29]

Please find the link which provides startups higher, less women. I am all for period leave of ten days, but government has to incentivise companies like they can call swap with one of weekend or the holidays or other incentives. The other thing I liked was calling Rajeeb sort to say he was the one who gave birth to journalists. Kanab, who is carrying legacy with hatred.

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OK, that's fair enough. I'm not sure you can accuse Rajdeep of giving birth to her now, but maybe fraternité.

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Uh, well, even then, Robin, you're a non subscriber and you have no male role model. I will pass it on to her more. Hit your non subscriber. You have responded to what Kamala Harris says, discussion. And Shalakany Khan is an ex subscriber. So therefore I will make an exception and read some of your male huge fan of your work. I was just Geordie's and podcast discussion period leave. As a feminist academic, I want to say that your discussion lacked some information on the topic.

[01:04:23]

Manager's stance is understandable, and the other guy's skepticism, which I guess you're talking about me, is also valid that the other guys are moving out of Moscow.

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But all of that has further arguments.

[01:04:34]

I would like to write an article on the subject for a website to give you and your readers the full picture of the research done in this area till date and the proper way corporations can implement this policy because there are several layers. It's not a binary yes or no for or against a little about my writing have been published in The Observer, The Telegraph UK required to have Post-Feminism India bus. Charlotte bought them earlier. This is way more than I've ever been published at the.

[01:04:57]

All the companies are publishing together on his salary. The publisher of the Charlotte please mail us up in London, Sikri at G.M. dot com. I repeat, Ivan, annunciate create Gmail dot com. And I hate to see this subscriber against your name, I hope, because I'm a subscriber. But since you are an academic and you've written for a lot of, you know, organizations around this, we'd love to have a very informed piece on this.

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Yeah.

[01:05:19]

Why don't you write a piece for us on this or send it to us? You can also contact at news laundry. And, you know, I'll share it with our editors here. I don't give the official email ideas on this because then the inbox has been given. I mean, it's fine. I suppose you get 500 mails. You'll miss the ones that I need you to respond and use them and they can it. You always say, oh, I didn't see your e-mail.

[01:05:40]

So first learn how to declare inbox. Then I saw it.

[01:05:43]

I read it. When was the last time I said I haven't seen you? I see a lot of stuff with the fake news here.

[01:05:48]

Then Shashank getting on subscriber, you have written a fairly long mail on the Rams boomy rabble rousing. You've asked me certain questions. Also, I completely disagree with your equivalence of Bapu. Was Bapu because of media and Nathuram can also be made by Puno Nathuram not be made bapa no matter what you do.

[01:06:08]

I think you are maybe in today's media. I know it's God. I mean, I think you're saying that since we call out, you know, the hate of one side, we don't call out the inefficiency on one side. First of all, I do. And I've called out.

[01:06:19]

But the equivalence that you make that everything is the same, it's not the same. But I will not read a lot because you're a non subscriber subscriber. Banjul put up analysis and there'll be arguments or debate MICHALINA because I really would like to have a discussion on this on any wasn't. And by the way guys, and that was the podcast where subscribers debate each other, subscribers debate us, we debate each other on issues we don't agree with because the whole idea of making sure better ideas prevail is that you debate and discuss them and the whole idea of analysis and to make debates great again, to reclaim the debate so it doesn't become the shouting match that we have made.

[01:06:56]

It will not be, but many legacy media has made it.

[01:06:59]

This email is from Protea Audry. Hello team. This is a reference to have to 289 of the comments that were made pertaining to secularism. Johnsonville then highlighting several omissions and hypocrisy of part of the members. The argument that the Supreme Court used Jaswinder self-contradictory as it gave away the land to the same people who would consider to be engaged in gross violation of law is totally unfounded on fact and showed that none of the Afterman was read the one thousand seventy five page judgment.

[01:07:24]

The Supreme Court pronounced its judgement on the title suit and not on the criminality of the act that brought down the disputed structure which bore the name of the Islamic invader being a title sued. The Supreme Court are supposed to decide in the title of the land title of the land in this case has been decided on archaeological, empirical, historical evidence. They have also taken into account the various foreign travelers who travel and injured during that period. I was astonished to see how not a single member even brought up the ECI report during the entire discussion.

[01:07:51]

K.K. Mohamed, who actually was a part of the archaeological team, has given many public seminars on how there was a Vedic structure below the disputed structure in Matron's Islamic structure.

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It wasn't a Vidic structure. It was a non Islamic. Is Jane or Hindu?

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I think. I'm afraid he is misinformed because the judgement says that these things are not evidence. Yes, in fact, they actually said it in the judgement that archaeological evidence and all that is not what it doesn't have a bearing on us yet.

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In May, twenty twenty during the land leveling of several ancient Vedic architectural pillars, siblings are discovered. Actually, I'm not so sure that they were part of, like you said, the judgment that was put out by the Supreme Court. Then speaking on secularism, Canley, don't forget the fact that the Constitution didn't have any mention of secularism. It was only done to the images in their and inserted secular into the preamble. If one reads the constituent assembly debates, one would find homebred garchik in which you were totally against proclaiming India secular nation.

[01:08:46]

Secularism and minorities are two nodes of the same hypothetical acces, and that's the reason why they can't go side by side by dumping the burden of secularism in the majority community. That is the reason why the Constitution had mentioned of minorities, but no mention of secular. The monument of secularism can be built on the ashes of Hindu community. Enough of the appeasement politics that made us see how a Supreme Court judgment is overturned as it interfered in Sharia. How, if third parties are tended to organize the people of unconstitutional polls, how huge houses are built across states, how Kashmiri Hindus are thwarted out of the only Muslim majority state, an entire political ecosystem kept quiet.

[01:09:23]

It's time we realize how the Indian civilization was ravaged by Islamic foreign invaders, the proof of which is splattered across page of history. Regards keep up the good regards, protect children, protect. I completely disagree with your entire take on secularism and the history of India, and I completely disagree with your think that the burden of secularism is not in the majority community.

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It is, and that is purely fact by numbers. It is like is it the job of twelve men in an office to make sure that it is women friendly? Yes, it is our job. Otherwise we can keep cracking jokes, sexist jokes about. I thought it was between your husband. These are things whichever community has the power, they buy common sense are the ones who can actually make things happen a certain way on that. And it doesn't matter whether it was inserted.

[01:10:13]

I mean, I've seen this argument for a lot time that it wasn't an the emergency, but how did it matter? I mean, that is not the question, not the question is obvious. Secular nation and secularism has become a dirty word. People are making fun of secularism. So I I'd like to know, is your position that secularism is something to be scoffed at or is it a desirable objective or ideal to reach for? If you're saying it is not a desirable virtue, then reject it.

[01:10:39]

Then you don't have to justify whether it is our border or not, our burden. And if it is a desirable virtue, then it doesn't matter who insulted it when. So I, I find this line of argument, one that I can't agree with, even one percent.

[01:10:52]

And you wouldn't say that for. I mean, if you're going to blame Muslims in Bangladesh and Muslims in Pakistan for the persecution that minorities have suffered, then you'd have to do the same in India also. No, I mean the majority minority to be it's majoritarianism, not Hindu or Islam, wherever it is. I mean, majoritarianism, majority Muslim. And also, I think I would recommend a piece on your laundry, on the verdict. And you downvoted how claims of mental worship and BARBREE was.

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It had vanished for Hindus. It was actually the the gods. The clincher was who had been using the land to offer prayers. I mean, it wasn't it wasn't to do these findings. And even though outlook back then had reported that they were, you know, artifacts and temples and stuff like that found what was then later on a certain was that the things that were found beneath the mosque, the artifacts or, you know, whatever the structure was there before the mosque was built, was it's not sure whether it's temple or not.

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It was not Islamic for sure, which means it was it could be Hindu, it could be Jain or Buddhist, but it wasn't Islamic. That was the bronze. But there's no certain proof that it was Ram Temple that was destroyed, something was destroyed, which was non Islamic.

[01:11:57]

Just to add to that, the Supreme Court obviously didn't say we are giving this land back to the people who demolished the mosque. But just like the earlier this month, we had the inauguration of the temple. And just look at the people who were that sided with them to side with them.

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Ramadi, they were all the same people who don't matter at that point. He was making a more general judgment.

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Can't say that, but that's the practical outcome of it. And about the other part of it in the news, seeing that the obviously the principle should be that the burden has to be on the majority because there are more numbers. But in actuality, in India, that has never happened. The burden has always been on the minorities. Tell me one the same, for example, Hindu festival, Hindu custom that has ever somebody has practiced somebody in power, a bureaucrat, a politician, a cricketer, and people have had a problem with that.

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But a Muslim comes to a power, comes to the parliament wearing a skullcap and he's suddenly an extremist.

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Also, if that party differences and what's the problem?

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And if I was right. But even this I don't understand on both sides, there's nothing wrong with the whole value of that idea. Yeah, it's fine. But I think that they should. And Indian secularism has always meant that you celebrate all religions, not that you keep yourself away from.

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This is not an atheist nation. This is a country of believers like UNin. Keep saying all the time.

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And also I you know, the whole thing of this was another round of moderate Leicht of pulling out what happened five hundred years ago, eight hundred years ago.

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You see, if that is your metric or if that is the value with which you determine current systems of social justice, then India was a bunch of princely states here. I mean, let's be clear. I mean, and I've said this before, Mangal Pandey did not decide to fight when they were asked to fight on their own people. He decided to fight when, as a pondy was asked to bite a bullet with definite Dony Lakshmi. But he did not fight the British to free India.

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She fought the British to save her principality to the seniors, buckled Marasa. Portela saved himself in different ways. So what is your point that all these people were anti Hindu or they were anti human or I mean, I don't understand what you say. You see, when kings of fighting kings and corporations were dealing with people like slaves and colonization was happening that time, the acceptable value of the world is different. You have gone even further beyond that.

[01:14:18]

Then coming and taking over a country meant demolishing. That is just structures. And this did not just happen with one religion or the other even happened within the same religion. And, you know, if you listen to a podcast, which I think you've mentioned, I will not play it when we get to Sri Lanka. Rockiest, my you would have told you about this whole myth that Indian kings, Hindu kings never used to demolish anything that short a full episode in one entire ruin of theirs, which was I don't know whether I could be wrong on this, whether it was jollof.

[01:14:47]

One of these looking's to and I put this thing and they have and they've kept it. Now, no one is. There is sing in Sri Lanka, Keystart. Something noncommittal about this, what by now or never to the point of the capture of our picnic katakana, Nicolazzi, a little needed in an honest conversation about this is welcome.

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And I think, you know, history should be up for, you know, these conversations from all sides.

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But to ask for retribution or to, like, go around or not introduce I reject the notion that Hindus have been at the receiving end of Muslims in India for the longest time.

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The world has been fought with varying value systems and down the ages forever, from the Crusades down to Bush invading Libya, sorry, Saddam invading Libya and Bush then invading Iraq. And this will evolve and will continue favouritism, says India, standing on the ruin of, you know, this lot of people who were bloody driving cars while slum dwellers were this thing. So therefore, all these people should their homes should be taken down. I don't think that would be a sensible way to reconcile whatever injustices are happening right now, because and I have mentioned this, in fact, we were trying to do a story just just not possible to do when I drive into a colony, the amount of cars that are parked along the sides of the road.

[01:16:07]

I said one day, let's just take an aerial shot and see how many of these cars, each of these cars are the size of one small Juggy. And if each of these is one together because the results are public, then obviously the people have turned the drivers into gardens, which is supposed to be the driveway and the road outside of the parking lot. Instead of that being an SUV occupying that suppose or four foot by six foot litter, the bottle came up and the person started living there.

[01:16:33]

Would that person be removed from public land or not? But a car will not be removed now, 500 years from now, should someone say all people who own cars in today's day and age be held responsible for all the injustices that happen to people who could not afford a home because it was your car that made sure we could not live in homes? No, because it is way more complicated and complex than that. Also, people tend to forget is that and it's because it has been constructed that way.

[01:16:58]

That historical memory, including by the Founding Fathers, Nehru and the rest of them, that India as a country came into being in 1947. Before that, there was a land mass which used to be called a place which used to be called India. But it was kingdoms, it was empires, it was princely states. It was a lot of other things. There was no country called India before that. Exactly.

[01:17:21]

So in fact, this the latest recruit of BJP Scindia, went down in Lakshmi by idea, recited that poem from that stanza from that poem last week. He what? He did not help her because she's Hindu, not Hindu. What they've done now to protect their own kingdom. Now, then, this email from Arvind Sreenivasan. Arvind says, I'm a recent subscriber long line of code that I think to address several discussions, complaints and probable solutions. You have you have some ideas of how we can make news on this content, more user friendly so that our evangelists can share it with others.

[01:17:55]

You have a discussion council, content safety and drags on for too long and then presiding over Favaro are limited to five minutes. And that is not a good balance of how we spend our time. OK, point taken. Technical suggestion to enforce the word limit, you should consider introducing a form in the website which shows the lifeboat content limit. That's a very good idea. In fact, we should start doing that. So have to email Shelly. That should be OK.

[01:18:19]

Maybe we'll do that. Alvin, thank you. Thank you for that so many show. What do you wanna discuss next?

[01:18:24]

I think Rauschenbusch on what's happening with the fine. What is the outcome?

[01:18:27]

I think it just come out on the Supreme Court has given President Bush and two more days to reconsider statement. I will quote what justice minister has said. So justice around Michel has said, quote, There is no person on Earth who cannot commit a mistake. You made hundreds of good things, but that doesn't give you license to do ten crimes. Whatever has been done is done. But we want the person concerned to have a sense of remorse, unquote.

[01:18:49]

I hope this also applies to judges such as Dr. Machar sorry, Justice Machar. But just as I said, I will give you two more days remorse. Dorita. Sorry, Bollo, please. Please, Olivola.

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But you just said give me the label. I don't seek mercy or magnanimity, but he's got two more days to think about, I think a bit more about it.

[01:19:08]

So, yes, your views on this. I should also tell you what Anderson said, quote, I am pained to hear that I am held guilty of contempt of court. I'm not because of the would be sentencing, but because I've been grossly misunderstood. I believe that an open criticism is necessary to safeguard the democracy and its values, unquote. Also, quote, I'm very considerate of my Lordships want, but there won't be any substantial change. I don't want to waste my lordship's time.

[01:19:32]

I will consult my lawyer and coach. Then Justice Minister replied, quote, You better reconsider it during the supply legal frenzy, unquote.

[01:19:40]

What is this court of Anglesea, just like battling each other on dizzily and apparently somewhere I was reading on labeler that President Bush was the guy who was representing him, was about to name the and he said, don't take his names. It's not necessary. Why would the old cases about him? Taking offense to the two tweets to do it right, but it's amazing. So I guess by Saturday this court will reconvene and if he still doesn't understand what happened, but just the background of what has happened in this time, there have been, I think, a thousand lawyers or 3000 lawyers, more than a thousand more than a thousand lawyers who have issued a statement in support of Pachon Bouchon.

[01:20:17]

And there have been many eminent citizens and regular citizens and people in law who have said that we started Bhajan. But basically it's going to become very embarrassing for the court. If this basically becomes something that we also said, then you can put 3000 people in jail. So the sentencing is going to be something very we will not let you into the Supreme Court for the next two months.

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As I got older, I think they go back to being embarrassed about anything.

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The Supreme Court in this country, I mean, they really don't get from their judgments, but I think they did really.

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I mean, those tweets would have completely been forgotten. But the fact that they wrote like the threats that to these hearings and then although it's kind of it's also helped, I think, increase the stature of President Bush and everyone supported, I think in this. I mean, I think they support him in this case, at least even if you're you know, you agree with him on other issues or the basic issue is the ridiculous lake nature of condemned law in India.

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Contempt is you can criticize a good Sedgman fine, but you can't say anything about the judges, which is like as feudal as it can get. The contempt the idea of contempt is if the court gives you some orders, gives you some directions, you're supposed to follow them. You don't follow them, then you're in contempt. That never happens. That, in fact, is contempt of court. Right. What the government did with a lot of like data, data gathering and stuff, that's contempt of court even in some cases.

[01:21:40]

In some cases where the Supreme Court had put a star on the destruction of some trees and all. Yeah, they went ahead and continued. Exactly. I think an article about that is he said, well, was like this. Listen, I think we also disgusted that the court had said that that all Mumbai it was right here to Mumbai, correct?

[01:21:55]

Right. Right. So. Well, I mean, subdermal is one case also where they basically said they're not going to follow. Supreme Court says this is a women's entry. Yeah. They said, let's see which, quote, can allow women's entry.

[01:22:09]

And I mean, they couldn't manage. So, yeah, it's quite, quite the thing. But, yeah, it's definitely brought back President Bush and Internews and Eminence, thanks to the Supreme Court, is just as all these cases that have just been happening for a while now.

[01:22:25]

I mean, it's also not a new thing right now. I would just like to also discuss about this film called Consensus Out of the Car Global. The Indian Air Force has written to the sense about get the letter sent to central board for certification, but it's on Netflix.

[01:22:40]

So I think it still has to go through them. I think so because it is a feature film, are supposed to have a theatrical release, so they must have sent it. But so BFC, I guess a negative portrayal of the Air Force and also the national government has all said, ha ha, we agree with them, though.

[01:22:56]

I don't know why the US government jumped in, because apparently the ladies from force's background and she says being from forces background, it doesn't appear so. This cannot be. Who's this lady? The lady who gave this statement in CWG. I see.

[01:23:09]

OK, so I'm also from forces background. I most even border cannot be drugs in the film and many other things I don't like.

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Most Army officers will also tell you it's not true.

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So even the numbering of the vehicles was inaccurate because the number of the vehicle communicates the year that vehicle was commissioned. And if you see border their vehicles in that recommission of the 80s, in the 90s, there is a war that the border is fighting is, I think, the 71 war.

[01:23:34]

So sorry for that candidate. But you have something to shed on this one issue.

[01:23:39]

Have you seen it? I've seen. Have you seen? No, I haven't. I actually voted awful. It also and I had said once and often in the sense that we don't do rate films like one upon five to a point five. I don't rate film because that communicates that you should see it or not. I may think of film is very shit, but I would still like you to see it. This is one of those films. It's a terrible film.

[01:24:00]

It is badly made. It is a celebration of mediocrity. It has mediocre music. It has below mediocre acting, three very gifted actors who have been wasted on this.

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In fact, if not for the three actors, the father, the boss and the brother. Yes. And even the the the other boss that he was in another. And also he's the cop and he was an altar bondable.

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So as the he's a cop. He's really good. He's a very good.

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So this I think she's she is all right. Yeah. So she's terrible. Terrible. Second act. The music is below ordinary considering you've shot in the dark. It is one of the most beautiful parts of the country. The cinematography, you might as well start in Missouri.

[01:24:41]

Uh, the act.

[01:24:44]

I mean, it's a war film, yet it doesn't have the urgency of war film. And the problem of these biopics is that rich rich incident is true, that a woman can just leave her unit and go home and she'll only be told, come back. Kosovo will be. Tried for a crack at them, and you abandoned a desert for desertion, though, which of course, she, you know, treated the way she was exactly which incident was true.

[01:25:05]

So when you say you've taken creative liberties, have you bellowed complete fiction? But why? It's important. What I think is because if young girls watch a film like this, they will say, fuck the system, we can be someone. So which is why some shit films must be watched.

[01:25:19]

I just think they could have made that movie without calling it wooden desks. And I just think that if you're using a real person's name and you're giving the audience the impression that this is a biopic, then you should stick to facts. Miner creative liberties are fine, but way beyond mine. Yeah, but. But yeah, but here exactly like I'm dead certain and this is not something the original one just sucks. And you know that Panella right now, that scene where the officers just slamming her hand is like.

[01:25:44]

I'm sure officers are sexist and I'm sure there was discrimination, benign and malicious. But I'm sure nobody was going around ordering men to line up with a woman to show her Allcott, quote, unquote. And, of course, you know, dancing to to repeat again the mess and all that. I mean, I just don't think that those kind of things are probably happening with the woman. This is one thing as a boss, I would be very upset.

[01:26:07]

Now, the guy who, as I was taking a lot of creative liberties and he probably didn't do all those things, maybe he was, you know, insensitive, sexist, whatever was walking around, forcing her to, you know, are missing her.

[01:26:21]

Salty's also something that probably didn't happen. And again, this is something that happened in Bungalow's, which I felt really upset about in Dangol.

[01:26:28]

You know, the courts, they really showed her actual as this bad guy who doesn't like Ahmed Khan, the father, and he locked him up on the final Olympics. Now, that coach is very upset. He was like, dude, I you know, I was, you know, because it was hard work. And you all movies about how glorious the father is was just fine. But don't blame me. So my expectation from biopics, I think, should be that they should be true to fact.

[01:26:52]

Minor things are fine.

[01:26:54]

But even her mother, like if I was John's mother, I mean, I don't know whether she was that horrible person. I mean, to tortured co-operative in our view. Should you study? Why should I invite you to join the Air Force? You must study what I'm saying.

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Is it of a brother sexist? I don't know if I was other than content. I don't think anyone would be happy with that. Actually, the boss.

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I think the boss that's also because I'm in Hollywood usually has a very hard time making films that don't have villains like these. Yeah. Yeah, it can be.

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Certainly can be. I mean, they could have made the point about sexism without making. It has been like a movie, a biopic which was like good and true to the facts.

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What made you go out wasn't bad. I'd say that was one of the better ones. It didn't turn anyone into a villain, including the Pakistanis. In fact, the only was a terrible film.

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I liked it. I don't know how true or false it was, but I think it was very sudden. I thought I thought I didn't think it turned anyone into villains that way. I think when he was I just thought was very slow and long for someone because I you know, my view on cricket, that's the only person I like is don't you know, I love Donia.

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I think he's an amazing leader. I think he's a he's a case study in leadership.

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Forget it's of identity to talk about donees retirement next.

[01:28:07]

Next up, it's sad that he plays cricket, but he's an amazing guy, I think.

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But I mean, I think Gandhi was the best made biopic I've ever seen. But Richard doesn't know what I'm talking about. The Bollywood Bollywood wasn't really, but I can't think of any.

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That wasn't bad.

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Bhagat Singh wasn't bad, you know, but maybe I saw it when I was a young.

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You know, you have to see it again. I mean, I tried watching the one with Bobby the old, but after I saw Bobby Jindal, I said, forget it. I'm not watching this.

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I think the the music of surrealism with.

[01:28:42]

So there's bogarting. It's got fantastic music. That film didn't do well because FIFA magazine came out at the same time as Rajkumar Santoshi with, you know, as if they've gone then one. Was it Bobby, the old one, is it this guy. But this the it's culture heightism. It's it's music is outstanding.

[01:28:58]

Well, it's the fact that she wasn't the she wasn't the only lead you the station there was another officer, but also to also show that she was the only one and all the trying room, whatever, you know, that she's created on changing room and all that. I mean, these are little details.

[01:29:12]

And I would have liked it to be true to Fox, especially because it is still an inspiring story.

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You know, you're right. If you're using real names and you're marketing, that has to be has to be.

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And this is the same with historical. We can do that.

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I mean, this movie now, the way this show Killie, you know, winning in that war is to some really stupid talksport that he does, I don't know. I'd forgotten, but it was very dumb. But I think generations are going to just watch. No one is going to read the book and they're going to think that KDDI and Alzayani, just like the people and not, you know, the whole character as this barbarian would like these eating features.

[01:29:50]

And he was like, freekeh, the ruler of probably the most civilized empire at the time.

[01:29:56]

Very often it is you cannot measure that judge that time.

[01:30:02]

Today's values, and that is what often happens, you know, but anyway, that we've discussed it so often, our listeners are probably sick of us talking about it again and again. I would just like to talk about this Yeddyurappa governor who's assured that I will read out Kanata catchy phrase. Europe has decided to make writers pay for the damages caused to private and public property during the violence in Bengaluru, the state home minister announced the BJP government decision regarding this.

[01:30:25]

The method was used first by You'll Get It or not government, which passed an ordinance to penalize writers. How the Karnataka government has invoked a 2009 Supreme Court order that permits the High Court to construct a machine to investigate laws and award compensation.

[01:30:37]

To any of you know, I know some properties were attached or the threats of that shouldn't happen.

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Yogi's government.

[01:30:43]

Yeah, they don't have to go through the process. I mean, once you have to prove that this person is right or because I remember there was some news article that said they're going around sending attachment notices to people for people who basically participated in protests.

[01:30:56]

So how do you prove that, whether this person is breaking it or not? I mean, how does the system work? I don't know, because a lot of people are saying, ha ha, I guess it's about that time. But let me tell you that I'll be looking to prove that it was broken by that particular riot situation.

[01:31:13]

And you do that. I mean, it's a very complicated thing to prove anyway. But then again, the purpose of this is not that we're not. No, I'm saying the purpose is not that. The purpose is just to harass people. Right. That's the whole point, to harass and humiliate and intimidate them in jail.

[01:31:30]

I mean, I don't need to times this has been put into place to see protests and all this. Right. But in this protest, I haven't had a follow up report on whether Beemans finally happened or not, like what exactly happened. They went around attaching property and saying, okay, whatever, and you will have to pay up. But did it really happen?

[01:31:46]

But but this was not just because I remember during this protest that the police had issued some sort of statement because then that video came out of these cops are just for no reason.

[01:31:57]

They are passing an empty parking lot. They started breaking. They said then these cops also pay for this. So the police, they said, yes, we will look into it. But was it looked into whether those bikes fixed? Really not in Bangalore. Also, for example, four people were killed in police fighting. Four people were killed. You can be sure that there's never going to be any investigation in that. Right.

[01:32:16]

So I think this is political posturing and harassment. I don't think it's going to lead to anything. It's not solution oriented. Yeah.

[01:32:25]

Even in terms of penalizing the real rioters, I mean, for I don't think it can even work in that sense right before you wind up anything else you want to talk about, Manisha.

[01:32:35]

Meraj, that we have missed because there are a lot of emails, we can't include all of them. So we should try to include some next week. But let's see, nothing really.

[01:32:44]

I think the hard what I think will be to I think we can understand because no one on this back in Bihar. So next week, if he joins us, he can just give us some sort of an idea of exactly our contact because he is in Portland. He's, I think, moving around. Yeah. He'll be able to give us a better understanding of what exactly is happening there. So let me end with this email. It's more than 600 words, so I won't include all of it.

[01:33:06]

So he says high up. And and then looky here. I became a subscriber last month after ANDRED for nearly five years because I have the financial means to do it. Yay! I'm glad. May you prosper and gift many news subscriptions to many more people. Just a small response to an accusation made by two Enel subscribers on your being micrographs regarding pronunciation of names or other linguistic going on.

[01:33:28]

It's still going on.

[01:33:29]

So he says, for example, an ungrateful find very difficult to pronounce in the letter. No names of surnames contain this letter, however hard they try. Similar to him, this boy speak rotten English, cannot pronounce words of Soza language. Why? I don't know what language that is, or it is a language of exactly like, okay, that one. Right. And he says human beings develop vocal chords depending on which language they learn. So certain vocal chords become more the thing, he says.

[01:33:56]

This is not to deny that not Indians are not inherently racist towards South Indians or northeastern US.

[01:34:01]

Bollywood, the so-called made it of 1930, has been a hell of a lot of racist well represented except from the south of Bihar or majority or Punjabi or Muslim or going.

[01:34:11]

So they haven't left anyone. So is our political left leaning centrist hated by everyone. So yea and witness a lot of nuisance in the left narrative, especially the one in the US which I hold responsible for the election of an absolute lunatic in power.

[01:34:24]

Mr. Trump. I still consider myself on the liberal side, but my own side banished me. I believe the left wing in the U.S. is already sensitive. I come from a generation who adore George Carlin, Ricky Trevis and Christopher Hitchens. Yeah, in fact, George Carlin, Ricky Rivers. I'm surprised Gervaise are been on his name. I don't know how many liberals have not considered them. I mean, they're so offensive. I do feel American left is somewhat similar to the Indian right wing.

[01:34:49]

The left is as intolerant as our right, major difference being that they are only sensitive and insincere as fuck.

[01:34:56]

Both are the politics of emotion, group mentality and that of keeping sentiments superior to facts, I'm in no way rightwing. I despise the U.S. right wing. And regarding the right thing, I feel like I've never read that sentence. It'll sound like a threat. But he feels only Mukti can cure them of the mental disorder. So, so.

[01:35:14]

So. Oh, God, you have been banished by the left. This is what I'm not surprised of. The Israeli authorities are. Give us some order. We're going to accept Kategaya, right. That the Palestinian Authority, they are left the majority. They are not.

[01:35:29]

OK, enough said. Look, this is your place. Anyway, on that note, I'm sorry, I have not been able to read your mail saumya apologize then let me apologize to some others. Or there was one person who wrote an email which I can't read the whole thing but I really want to welcome. This gentleman doesn't want to be named. He says hi anytime. I most certainly an outlier in your subscriber demographic being 65 years old.

[01:35:53]

He's been a subscriber for years. Thank you.

[01:35:56]

Thank you. And your input that we should not have aversions and and elsewhere of night. King, Queen, Jedi. Well, good point. Even I've always hated this king queen. But we call it Jedi Master or maybe you call it Can Queen, which I really like the Star Wars thing. Know what I mean?

[01:36:12]

So what would be the what it delivers? What should be the level?

[01:36:15]

There will be laundry, laundry, soap and super and Jeev and if we can figure it out, he said, I find myself in a car with all of you. And I think marriage has been an excellent addition since he joined. Thank you. Then I would like to point out what your panelist mixed up the names of two former RBA governors, Viridian divisible.

[01:36:33]

Well, of that was me. So sorry because we were talking about the property tremolite were devastated on board.

[01:36:41]

I happen to support these gentlemen who are among the best.

[01:36:44]

Okay, sorry. We we correct ourselves mixed up. And as I said, I'm usually very impressed with Meraj, but he's quite wrong on Kamala Harris. The record. She fails to pass the purity test imposed by the left wing of the Democratic Party. But a few points need to be made in her support as a child of civil rights activist and a graduate of an all black Howard as opposed to the Harvard University. She's hardly a center right machine politician.

[01:37:06]

In fact, as a D.A. or prosecutor in 2004, she refused to seek death penalty for the killer of a police officer, a stand that earned her the opprobrium of the police, unions and some establishment Democrats. As an attorney general, she possibly went overboard on being tough on crime, which was a popular position in those days, especially post 9/11. However, her record is not all bad. She was the first to introduce racial sensitivity training for police and mandated body cameras, which is no small achievement.

[01:37:33]

Her outstanding achievement as A.G. was to hold firm and get 18 billion as compensation for low income mortgage owners from five banking majors. Oh, in doing so, she went against all other 49 ages and won an overall settlement, which are six times more than the original offer for the fifty states. Her record as a U.S. senator is for everyone to see. I'm sure you can read all this, but I wanted to point out that many in the progressive camp reflect reflexively applied the Black Lives Matter standards on today to tarnish an outstanding candidate often called the female Obama.

[01:38:03]

Like him, she is not doctrinaire, but it is a stretch to call her center right. I am glad of called out false equivalence between Sooraj and news laundry that one may have started with some noble intentions of being an Indian spectator, but ended up as the elder sibling of India. OK, fine, so thank you.

[01:38:21]

I will not read your name as you requested, but thank you for subscribing. It's I don't want to sound ageist, but I just assume that people, you know, who are more willing to pay for news online are young. So I stand corrected. So I really appreciate your mail and sharing your views and thoughts. And sorry just about that. Kamala Harris with. So, yeah, obviously. I mean, she has been in politics for a long time, publicly, for a long time.

[01:38:46]

She has done some good things also. But if you see the overall record, from what I understand from what I read, even though settlement you're talking about the mortgage settlement, essentially like people like David Dean and Dean Baker, they have said that this settlement was basically just get out of jail free card for the for the bankers. So they paid some money and they promised 50 billion or something. They ended up being five billion with that stuff. It was the credit and all that.

[01:39:12]

Basically, they took taxpayer money in return. And the biggest thing was that none of them were prosecuted.

[01:39:17]

In fact, one of the people who was let off by Harris was Steven Manoukian, who is now the Treasury secretary.

[01:39:24]

So it wasn't as late as I've seen this this sort of narration of this whole thing is from her own book. She says that I did this and that and that, but it's been like wrongly sort of debunked.

[01:39:38]

But I think there is a complexity in public life. Like I do think that there is an expectation of purity that, you know, the left has in decision making. The bigger the decision making, the more holes you will find in consistency of that person's position. Because you know something as simple as. That level endorsing or not endorsing someone is of course, I'm not saying one should endorse without criticism, one can endorse and criticize.

[01:40:04]

I mean, I can say that I will vote for, let's say, up, but yet I can be critical of OP, which is very rare for anyone to say I would vote for the very critical role that cannot happen.

[01:40:13]

You have to, you know, swallow the hook, line and sinker. But generally, like, let's reject everything and everybody is something that is also a very far left liberal thing that no one is as pure as a non will be. Because when you take decisions at a macro level, you will like, for example, any decision, even a small organization or decision that is taken at the level of a reporter will not be the same decision and has already signaled a level of board of governors.

[01:40:41]

And that doesn't mean everyone is evil or good or it is just the balances that one has to maintain at different times are different.

[01:40:49]

So, yeah, and also, I mean, there's this sort of become this thing that if you criticize somebody I like.

[01:40:55]

So I take offense like that. For example, take Obama. He was a very inspiring leader to a lot of people. He symbolized a lot. He did some good things also. But if you see his record, you can still say that he bombed a lot of countries.

[01:41:09]

He won a Nobel Prize for basically for peace, for giving speeches, for giving speeches, and then went against everything that represented. In fact, one of the best doesn't mean that he wasn't inspiring.

[01:41:21]

He was a great you can love people, you know, you can be both.

[01:41:25]

I think that that complexity and that nuance and that grace we are losing. In fact, I have recommended a podcast on Obama. One of his most ardent supporters has done a searing critique of him. I think it was Radiolab podcast, if I'm not wrong. But it's it's on the recommended, by the way.

[01:41:41]

Are they are we working on that document where all our recommendations are all plotted on one document? That decision has come several times. Please make a note of it. Let's get someone to do this, basically all the after recommendations. So if someone wants to go scroll back and see everything we've recommended, rights and stuff that started all those links would have that recommendation links all in one document, one never ending scroll, then Elrich Rebelo. Sorry, can't read your full mail.

[01:42:06]

You have spoken about Maneesh and my discussion on period leave.

[01:42:11]

You suggest we read premature imitation and India's flailing state by sheer rajagopalan and Alexander Truthy Ratuva.

[01:42:19]

Sorry what I say she she said I should see that the man in me said must be a gun we are shooting and Alexander Tabarrok and it is a relevant section title, maternity leave in India. And then there is and you also given a link to this paper.

[01:42:34]

Then Mahendra Obama has spoken about how his name is pronounced in the north and south and it's not microaggression or racism if someone mispronounced the name.

[01:42:43]

Prakash Iyer has been critical of our take on the Bangalore incident last week, and it was similar to the other critique that is was pretty much said that the Hindus should not be criticizing lack of progressive Muslims, was surprised that there was no pushback. I think we've discussed already Shikwati to look that you have also sent on the period of discussion. And she said even the most basic look on labor history makes it clear that power concedes nothing without being challenged. Things like the eight hour day weekends off, equal pay for equal work, which I think many also pointed out it would not be possible.

[01:43:15]

So yea, thank you all you subscribers and for writing unsubscribing on that note we shall call it.

[01:43:21]

I have to, I would before we give our recommendations and the song suggestion for the week, I would again like to tell you please subscribe to news laundry a half hour, remain free for the next I think three weeks, possibly four.

[01:43:34]

Shared it with people who you think would value it and will contribute to make independent media possible, because when the public pays, the public is served.

[01:43:43]

So yea, please do that and we'll have a new annells in a project up to contribute to that and are subject so upset. So during the month of August we have a fantastic, so upset, the right to the jasmine soap, the green and the lemongrass soap and the oranges and orange soap and possibly the like.

[01:43:59]

Attack your camera. I have another hair. Hindu, Muslim, Sikh sites are up supposedly. So Badali I just mean let's make it clean before anyone says that the equivalent to the remaining rabbi calculative.

[01:44:11]

So I'm getting any of that Ofwat Oja. So please take yours Hupert. So, um, Farraj, Manisha, your recommendations?

[01:44:19]

Uh, I'll, uh, just recommend an article that relates to what the gentleman who wrote to us subscriber was talking about, the Kamala Harris settlement. So it's called, uh, Kamala Harris tells The Big Lie that 2002 mortgage settlement was a good deal for homeowners. It's a very nuanced debate about what it was about how it affected people by using it.

[01:44:42]

OK, Manisha, before you give, I'll just give mine. Since we're talking about gender, there's a very interesting newsletter that NPR put out. The pandemic is making the gender pay gap worse. It's an interesting read and I think it gives insights. To where, you know, other consequences of something like this and the other piece I'd like to recommend is a piece in the Time magazine on Facebook in Myanmar and how they are fighting back, basically an investigation into how they played a part in what happened there.

[01:45:11]

It's in the Time magazine.

[01:45:13]

I recommend to news only pieces by No one, since he's not here. Also on the toxic Behati family, he's in a two part series on this whole notion of toxic biorefineries. You have to read it twice, maybe to understand it. I know, but it's it's a very serious read.

[01:45:28]

I don't agree with all of it, but it's a very like like only on in the can do every sociological explanation for all the reactions to something Rajputs did. On that note, thank you.

[01:45:40]

For those of you who are paying and subscribing, thank you online for recording this. Thank you. That they are producing this. Thank you also for producing this.

[01:45:47]

We'll be back next week with another Hafter with hopefully a carpet here being dry and Monica's roof not leaking.

[01:45:55]

We leave you with this song. All the news laundry podcasts are available on Stitcher, iTunes and any other podcast platforms, please subscribe to News Laundry, help us keep news independent.

[01:46:24]

Got all our podcast on news, pop culture, current affairs and sport. Visit on the dot com. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and subscribe to our YouTube channel.