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Hey, everyone, welcome back to you on purpose. The number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you. Thank you for coming back every single week to listen, to learn and to grow. Now, I know that you're going to be excited for this one. I know this is someone that you've always wanted me to interview and sit down with. And this is something that I've been dying to meet. And we finally, finally, finally made it happen.

I'm so grateful for today's guest. It is none other than Rich Roll. Now, Ridgewell was named one of the 25 fittest men in the world by Men's Fitness and the world's fittest vegan by Men's Health, which is a globally known ultra endurance athlete, wellness advocate, best selling author of Husband and father of four at age 40, which walked away from a career in law, dropped weight and reinvented himself as an ultra distance endurance athlete, the first of two people to complete five Ironman on five Hawaiian islands in under a week.

It's crazy, literally. And then he's also the host of the wildly popular Rich Roll podcast, which I know you're big fans of one of the top hundred podcasts in the world with over 70 million downloads today. I'm excited for him to share his inspirational story of addiction, redemption and optimal health. Welcome to the show, Rich Rahil.

So good to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's nice to finally meet you. I feel like I know you. I've been following your stuff for a long time, so I'm very grateful.

The feeling is so mutual and yeah, it's always good when you that's that is why I do love social media. I love it for this, that when you meet someone you feel like I already know this person, we can dive straight into it. I gave you a big hug on the way and I don't even think twice about it. Lots of mutual friends. Yeah, exactly. So I feel connected to you already, Naseema, and. Well, thank you.

Thank you so much. How do you describe someone who has done five Iron Mans and on five Hawaiian Islands? Like how do you describe that person? I don't know. You're the host. That's your job.

I never know how to how to articulate what it is that I do. People, what do you do?

And yes, I've done some athletic things, but, you know, I'm a writer. I'm a podcast host. I'm a father. I do lots of different things. And I never really know how to answer that question or fully describe.

I think it's all of us today. None of us know how to explain what we do. My mom has no idea how to explain what I do. My wife has no idea what I do. And even I do. And they're like, yeah, what do you want your lower back to be? I'm like, I don't know. Like you're going to get a real job. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. Verra tell me about you just said that your father, your father of four, what's the best thing you enjoy doing with your kids. What's been the last crazy thing that you've done with them. Crazy thing.

Well, we were in Australia for the month of December, so that was super fun. Spent time in Sydney and in Byron Bay. So I just like being out in nature with my kids. Just simply, you know, it's the simple things. It's not like, oh, here's the crazy thing that we did. It's the little moments. It's the, you know, conversation in the car on the way to dropping them off at school or, you know, a walk with the dogs on the trails, like outside my home.

I live in a pretty rural area outside Los Angeles. So those are the those are the things that I think are the most meaningful. And anybody who's a parent, I think can probably connect with that.

And any memorable conversations recently where they've given some words of wisdom to you or made you had an awakening?

Trust me, yeah. My biggest teachers, you know, my sixteen year old right now is is really handing it to me, you know, and I, I think that I've got my spiritual program dialed in and that I have, you know, transcended so many of my character defects. And they say like a long time in recovery for alcoholism. And one of the kind of catchphrases is if you want to confront your character defects, get into a relationship.

And I would up that ante by saying, I have a sixteen year old daughter tell you exactly where you're at. And I feel like God or the universe or however you want to describe your higher power kind of puts in your path these kinds of teachers who will challenge you in ways that you didn't anticipate. My my sixteen year old daughter certainly does that. She knows how to press my buttons.

And, you know, we get into it daily and it's great for both of us.

But it's hard, man. It's hard being a parent.

Yeah, no, I have no I have plans at some point to become a parent, but I can see and a. From other people's experiences, how hard it is, so I'm making sure that I'm as prepared as I can be from from that point of view before I dive into it. So, yeah, I will come to you for some advice and think everyone's always telling me, like, Jay, where are you going to write a children's book?

I'm like, I am never going to write a book. And I have to be a parent because it's I don't I don't see that being a formula. And when I speak to parents, they're always very open about the fact of just it's a new learning curve every day and every day. Yeah, every day. It's awesome. And your wife is an incredible vegan chef and cook and author.

She's also somebody that that kind of defies definition. She does lots of things. It's funny. She's written three plant based cookbooks, My Power Away, Plant Italia. She wrote a book on how to make plant based cheese called This Cheese is Nuts. Funny thing is, that's how people know of her. Is this the sort of vegan chef? And she's like, I'm not a vegan chef. That was this one thing that I did like. She would consider herself much more an artist, a musician, a spiritual teacher.

She has her own podcast and her wisdom is profound. So I learn from her daily. She's very much my teacher as well.

And that's beautiful. Yeah, I feel that way with my wife. Like I when I met my wife, a lot of I had been involved in meditation and spirituality for a lot longer in terms of time. And so a lot of people thought that she was not going to be spiritual enough to marry me. And it's like the joke's on everyone because she's like so much possible to me naturally and intentionally. I like all of this is so natural and easy and organic for her.

Whereas for me it's always been a work like I've had to work for any growth I've had spiritually or internally, whereas for her she's kind of like just got this natural energy. Yeah, exactly. And it's fun to be around that. And it sounds like your wife has the same is very much so. Yeah. We're very, we're very lucky. Yeah. Yeah. We upgraded.

You're lucky. But also sometimes you want to just relax, you know what I mean. And you'll be like, is that really what you want to be doing. Right. She's pushed, she's always pushing me and that's great. You know, I'm always growing because she's challenging me or or she's she's sort of showing me where I need that growth, you know?

And sometimes you don't want to always look at that. You want to just not be reminded that you still have growth that can be hard. So that's that's like the the challenging part of it. But, you know, of course, it's a gift, right? Yeah. And I would not have accomplished any of the things that I've done without, you know, having that partnership.

What do you do to relax then?

I mean, I go to the movies, you know, I'm going to play that, you know, your favorite movies or recently favorite movie recently. Well, like a good one, though. I'm a big movie guy, too. So, I mean, you know, I see I see everything. I can even find the good in the worst movies.

OK, OK, fine. But I loved I love Jojo Rabbit. I tell you what is Tiger what isn't brilliant. Director, I really enjoyed that.

Let's let's go back now.

Let's let's talk a bit about how you got here. And I know you've told this story before, but for me, it's fascinating. And I think for my audience, it will be fascinating to hear it. And please share any parts that you haven't shared before or get lost in it in your own way. But your relationship with drugs and alcohol took you away from your athleticism. When did you get introduced to it? And why was it so captivating or intoxicating that it that it took you away from something that is so natural to you?

Yeah, well, I think, you know, I get the question all the time, like, why do you think you're an alcoholic? And you can kind of chase that answer to your, you know, for the rest of your life. And I'm not sure you can ever get a completely satisfactory answer. You know, I am an alcoholic because I am I'm more interested in what the solution is, the problem than trying to figure out what caused it.

But I would say that from a very young age, you know, I was somebody who was naturally pretty socially awkward and very introverted. I had difficulty making friends. And, you know, I was the kid on the playground who was picked last for kickball. Like I was not you know, I was really I felt like I lacked that rulebook for life that everyone seemed to naturally have. And I was unaware that there was any other way of living other than how I was living until I discovered alcohol.

And I think, you know, as I was growing up, I found my way into swimming. And that was the one thing that I could do that I had some natural acumen for. And I kind of doubled down on that and got better and better. And the better I got in swimming, the better I got in school like I'd learned these tools in these skills about, you know, what happens when you apply yourself and you're dedicated and you see progress and results.

So by the time I was a senior in high school, I was one of the better swimmers on the Eastern Seaboard. And I got in all the great colleges and all of that ended up. Going to Stanford, number one collegiate swimming program in the country and obviously an incredible academic institution, and that's really where I was introduced to alcohol for the first time, I got drunk a couple of times prior to that on recruiting trips, but that was where it really took hold of me.

And, you know, I have very vivid, visceral memories of of that feeling of being drunk for the first time and having this sensation like I was being wrapped in a warm blanket. And the answer to every question I ever had was suddenly, you know, at my fingertips and I felt comfortable in my own skin and able to have a conversation and just, you know.

Capable of kind of navigating life in a way that I felt like everyone else naturally knew how to do, and I thought this is the solution. I've been looking for and I think that that's a common sensibility that you find amongst alcoholics and drug addicts. And it works.

It brought me it taught me social skills. And suddenly I could go to parties and talk to girls and crack jokes and all of that. But it works until it doesn't work and it stops working and then it starts to denigrate your life. And it didn't take long before it started to undermine the goals and the ambitions that I had because I was you know, I was and still am a very ambitious person, but it really just eroded all of that.

And, you know, it's a progressive disease. But over time, it took me to some really dark and desperate places. Yeah.

And that's why I think it is important to look at the cause or at least why I find it important to look at the cause, because there are probably so many people are listening right now, watching right now that are like rich. I'm not yet an alcoholic. I'm not yet a drug addict, but I feel the same way you feel as a kid. I feel socially awkward. I find it hard to make conversations. I struggle. So they're actually on the precipice of going in the direction you went in.

So it's almost like when we can stop there, we can actually go, well, what's the issue there? Like, why is it that so many of us growing up feel less? Like you said, everyone had the rule book, right? Like it felt like everyone had the rule book. But the funny thing is no one did. But it felt like that to you. And that's how people who are listening and watching right now, they feel that I have the rule because they feel you have the role, because they feel their friends have the rule book.

How do we solve it even before that stage? What solutions have you come up with there of what are the better, healthier ways to open up, to feel confident, to feel comfortable talking to people?

Well, I think it it then becomes about the language that you speak so well. Right. It's an internal job. It's a it's a it's an internal journey that I think we all have to go on to figure out what makes us uniquely who we are. And, you know, those those sort of natural discomforts that I think we all have on some level, whether they're a direct result of childhood trauma or just improper parenting or an unhealthy environment in which somebody was raised and grew up, all of these things contribute to that sense of insecurity or a lack of connection.

And I think the way forward, as opposed to trying to medicate through drugs and alcohol or other things, social media, you know, shopping, whatever it is, anything outside of yourself to resolve or numb, whatever emotional just sort of discontentment that you're experiencing is a futile erent.

Right. Like the only the only sustainable, healthy way of addressing that is to find a way to get comfortable with who we are internally. And I think it begins with a practice of self-love and a gratitude practice, meditation, mindfulness. There's so much mainstream acceptance and recognition of all of these tools that I feel were lacking when I was growing up. I mean, I'm older than you, and I didn't go on the amazing spiritual journey that you have gone on.

But I think there there is now a, you know, kind of an ability to that that that didn't exist in the in the 70s, you know, when I was a kid. And I think that's great.

So for anybody who's watching or listening, if you're feeling that level of discontent or you're experiencing, you know, an inability to connect with other people, you know, be aware of when you're reaching outside of yourself to change that internal state and instead kind of direct that inward and go on that journey instead. And I think it will lead you to a healthier destination over time.

Yeah, really well said. And I think you're spot on, because what I find is that. It's also the narrative that children hear from their teachers, parents and media. So I remember if you're a kid that spends time alone, teachers or parents would be like, oh, he or she doesn't have a lot of friends. Right. Rather, there's a narrative. Yeah, exactly. Rather than the narrative of, oh, he or she is really comfortable being alone.

Right. It's like the narrative of always negative or like if you had a birthday party and only five kids showed up, it's like, oh, they're not very popular at school when actually most of us would say we probably don't have more than five great friends.

Yeah, I mean, I think society has created a very narrow box or checklist and we're all expected to kind of fall in line and meet that criteria.

And the truth is, is that the human condition is much more varied and we need to celebrate those differences rather than judge them against the parameters of what's socially acceptable and that limited scope. And I think that's what we've done traditionally. And that marginalizes most people. Right. So it's about broadening the aperture and understanding that that we all have gifts and things that make us uniquely who we are.

And to the extent that we can celebrate those differences or those unique qualities, I think that's an also like a very healthy path forward.

Yeah. What have been your self-love and gratitude practices? Because I know you mentioned both of them there and they're very important pillars in your own life. What's a great self-love practice like a daily thing people have done that's really helped you?

I will preface my answer to this by saying that that self-love and gratitude, these are not my natural disposition.

My natural disposition is self-loathing, insecurity, resentment, anger like all of that.

Right. And of course, that's fertile ground for alcoholism. So I have to work very hard to keep those negative emotional tendencies that day and and to and to cultivate to bring gratitude and self-love into my life.

So, you know, it begins with very simple, cheesy practices like repeating the mantra, I love myself or even more powerful. What would somebody who loves themself do in this situation? If I love myself, what would I do in this situation like that is always bringing yourself back to that. Do you know Khamal Rova can't I don't know. He's an amazing guy. You should have him on your show. But he just wrote a book called Love Yourself.

Like your life depends on it. And it's full of all of these kind of self-love practices, which are very simple, but I think very profound. Yeah, cultivating gratitude involves creating a gratitude list every single day, writing down the simple things that you're grateful for, and then expressing that gratitude through actions in your interconnections with other human beings on a daily basis.

Tell me about instance where you used because you write like we see these everywhere there in articles like you said that considered cheesy now, but we both know that they work. Tell me tell me about a time when you use the first one, for example, that question of if I love myself, how would I do this? Tell me about an instance where you've seen that profoundly affect your life. And with making gratitude is like, tell me about a time when you were in that self-loathing, totally degenerative kind of position and then having a gratitude list how that made the switch?

Well, I think there's micro examples, like when you're choosing what food to eat, are you going to choose the fast food thing or the healthy thing? Well, if you love yourself, you're going to choose. So there's there's plenty of things like that. But I think in a very macro level, like I've leveraged these practices to quite literally change my life. Like I for many years was a practicing corporate attorney, very unhappy in that profession, trying to jam this square peg into a round hole forever until I had a bit of an existential crisis kind of crash into a health scare that really forced me to take stock of how I was living and make some changes.

And I made a decision, a very conscious decision at this time. It was right around when I turned 40 that I was going to engage in activities that made me happy, even if they made no sense, even if they weren't moving my life forward in a in a in a traditional career sensibility. And that meant like I'm going to go to the pool in the middle of the day and go for a swim, or I'm going to go trail running or I'm going to ride my bike like and at two o'clock on a Wednesday when I'm supposed to be at work.

And I didn't care what anyone thought of that. And I feel like that was very much it was very difficult for me to begin doing things like that. But that was how I was exercising or practicing self-love.

Like, I'm just going to do this thing that makes me happy is very simple. It's a very primal activity. And it doesn't have to mean anything. It doesn't have to be moving me forward in any particular direction. It's really just honoring myself. Little did I know that repeating those behaviors over time would completely change how I live my life in every simple regard. But at the time, I didn't know that it was just practicing honoring myself.

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Smile train. Dog forward. Slash check. Visit. Smile. Train dog. Forward slash Jay. I'm sure in your career, like the career path you had that you wanted to break away from. I'm sure there are a number of peers that wanted to break away, too, I'm guessing. And I'm assuming having the legal profession is filled with people who are not not exactly fulfilled. Right. Right. I assume that it's an interesting thing. Or when you say, you know, I'm not going to do this anymore, I'm going to go to this other thing.

You think they would celebrate you, but they get very angry. Of course. Yes. If you could break out, that means they can, too. And they have to they have to really confront that in themselves.

And that's my. If you had peers that what was different about your ability to break out? And I'm not saying and you know, you're not an egotistical person. I'm not asking you to be egotistical, asking you to share lessons. What was different in that you were able to break out and do something that now you're more aligned with who you want to be as the future moves on versus the people that don't make that step? What is the difference?

I think it was abandoning any connection to practicality and really living in faith. You know, it really tested my faith because the reason I was able to do it is because and this is with Julie's help was because I embrace the fact that it was a spiritual journey fundamentally. So, yes, I left being a lawyer and I became this ultra endurance athlete and author and podcasts. But it wasn't because when I was a lawyer, I got out my white board and created a wish list or, you know, basically tried to, you know, create this is my dream scenario for my life.

I just started engaging in what I felt was more aligned with my unique blueprint. And with that, I would start pulling on the threads that would appear every day. And I was tested. It was very difficult. We went through incredible financial dismantling, like I was tested in every regard. You can imagine people saying I was crazy, all of it. Right. But by having faith and trusting in that sense of what was right for myself and learning to listen to and rely on that instinctual voice, I think taught me a lot about who, who, who I am and also about resolve.

And ultimately, I think that's why I was able to see it through. So if you look on the Internet, it kind of looks like it all happened like this. Like overnight. I just made this decision and became this other thing. This is this was like I mean, I've been doing this for, you know, 15 years at this point. And I got sober at thirty one. It really began when I went to rehab at age thirty one and started to re configure my life based on spiritual principles.

And here I am, twenty two, twenty three years later, still learning, still growing, still making mistakes. So it's very much not an overnight thing and it's all a spiritual journey.

And what is your faith in at that time? Because it's almost like most people when they're in that transition, it's like you don't really have faith in yourself or you may not have faith in your skills, like is your faith in the belief that doing the right thing is the right thing either way? Or is your faith in the fact that you have your wife who's supportive, like what is that faith in? Because I feel like that's the hardest thing for people and I can only speak for myself that I knew that my faith was in the guidance of my teachers.

My faith was in the books that I'd read, in the philosophy I believed in and my faith was in. There's a beautiful, beautiful verse in a text called the Money Committee, which says that if you protect your purpose, your purpose protects you. Right. And that was what my faith was in, was that statement. And I was like, I am going to test that statement to its limits.

But that statement requires that you understand what your purpose is, correct? Yes, I very much did not know.

That's what I'm saying to you. What was your faith in so. Well, first of all, I will say that I was on a I was on a journey to discover what that purpose was. And I had a fundamental belief that that I did have that there is or was a purpose for me to discover. And I used endurance training as a vehicle for that process of self discovery, because there's something about being out on a trail for hours and hours and hours on an eight hour bike ride.

You're stripped of all artifice and the kind of low grade suffering that you experience forces you to confront yourself in a very honest way. Right. And you meet yourself in a place that you're not used to. And and there's there's a there's a lack of of artificiality and artifice in that place where you can be really honest, like you're you're wrestling with your soul at the most profound level, I think. And that's what attracted me to this world. And that's what helped me answer all of these questions, getting comfortable in that crucible.

But if I had to say what is the philosophy, philosophical belief that kind of underpins that, I would say that that that we we all are truly here. We are we are here to we are here to grow and we are here to on a journey of greater self actualization and the closer we can to.

Approximate that place of self actualization, the better position we are in to express our unique blueprint and purpose in service to other human beings. Right. And for me, it's been a process of trying to uncover what that is for me and then ultimately bring greater expression to that for the betterment of other people. What does it feel like right now that is for you compared to when you first started on this path? Was the evolution of that?

Yeah, well, it's interesting because for a long time it was like, oh, you're the vegan, ultra endurance athlete guy. And it's like, yeah, I am. And I did those things. But that's just one expression of who I am.

And the podcast, you know, much like your show has been about trying to continue that growth and to understand that that I was able to do those things in the endurance world because I understood that we are all sitting on top of gigantic reservoirs of human potential that remain untapped. And I was able to tap into that aspect of myself in an athletic context and express that. But there are all these other areas of untapped potential in my life and in my friends, people that I meet there, everybody's life.

Right. And I wanted to. Continue that growth curve and that learning process of of tapping into those other areas spiritually, mentally, emotionally, intellectually, socially, every aspect of what it means to be as self actualized as we possibly can.

And what do we do that you mentioned that a few times now. Like, you know, it's interesting that when you achieve something, your identity becomes crafted around it. So it's almost like you have the healthy vegan diet and, you know, like you did. And then and I can see that there's a part of you that almost there's a part of you that's like but that's not all of me. And I'm more than that. I don't want to be defined by sugar.

How do you how do you process that? Because I think a lot of people struggle with that, whether it's their past failures or their past successes that start to define everything about who they attract in their life, who they spend time with, what opportunities they come their way. I mean, I'll give an example of some of those coming to my mind right now is when when we had Kobe Bryant on the show and Kobe started to talk about how like and this was huge for me, he was saying basically no one believed that he could make TV or movies or media because he was a basketball player.

What do you know about this space? And so when he was trying to sell these shows, no one wanted to buy them. And that's why he had to build his own studio. And that's where he's building the studio for Dear Basketball. And he's writing these novels and these books that were then being turned into movies and TV shows and podcasts. So he even someone like him was totally being pigeonholed and define how do you process that for yourself and how do you help other people process anyone who feels limited by their past failures, but also limited by their past successes?

Well, a couple of things. Yeah. First of all, that identity or whatever it is that's looming out there is just a story and it's only as powerful as as you allow it to be. Right. You always have control over that narrative or how strongly you want to be reminded of a certain identity. You can always, Rycroft, that you only have control over your own behaviors and your own thoughts and your own interactions with other human beings. You can't control how other people perceive you.

That's none of your business. So if you're unhappy with the story that's being told about you, all you can do is act in contravention of that. You can't control how other people perceive that, but you can control the story. You tell yourself about who you are. So it's about becoming you know, you hear the adage of like be the be the movie star in your own movie, the movie of your life. Right. And understand that at any given moment, you that these stories are just they're drawn out of thin air.

They're not they're not real. This is a projection that comes from a collective imagination. So change the story if you don't like it. And if you don't like the story that other people are telling about you, you can mute that and just do your own thing. So when I didn't you know, when I didn't want to be pigeonholed as the vegan athlete, I just started a podcast and started talking about other stuff, you know, and then seven years later, that's still a thing.

But, you know, I'm known for other things now. Yeah. People will fall into line, you know, with with, you know, based upon your behavior and your actions with your identity the way it is right now.

What are you most excited to? Not be known for, but be acknowledged for what you're doing for yourself, not from other people, not for the external validation, but what are you most excited about doing for yourself? Just continuing to learn?

You know, I just I want to be a lifelong learner. And I think that that growth curve always exists. And there's always people out there that you can that you can take valid information and tools from to improve your life. So I don't spend a lot of time thinking about how I want to be perceived, not, of course, but I think that and people ask me all like, oh, what's the what's the vision? Where do you see yourself in five?

It's like, I don't think about that. Like, I'm so fulfilled and doing what I'm doing right now and the fact that I get to be on this personal growth trajectory by having amazing conversations with incredible human beings. And then you get to share that with other people and it impacts them. I mean, I don't know about you, but I can't think of anything more, you know, more gratifying and any kind of career trajectory that would be more gratifying than that.

What's the most interesting thing you learned recently, whether it was a skill or technique or fact or stat or some research that blew your mind or some experience that just really changed the way you were thinking about something?

Oh, that's interesting. You know, I probably go back to Carmel rather like him and his simple practices of learning how to love himself. Like he went he walked me through these experiences where he really hit rock bottom emotionally in a very in a couple of different ways throughout his life. And how these very basic, simple, easy to apply practices have transformed. How he sees the world and experiences the world, I think is really profound because of its sheer simplicity and power.

Do you think based on that, what you just said now? Do you think that. Humans only change through pain. I get that a lot, I mean, pain is pain is is the best motivator for change, obviously, and I think the biggest changes that I've made in my life have really been forged through pain. Does that mean I'm stubborn, like I don't want I'm not going to change until, you know, my whole world is falling on top of me and then.

Oh, yeah, OK. I guess I need to modify that. Yeah. But it is amazing how human beings are wired that way because the possibility of change exists in every moment. Right. And yet we seem incapable or challenged in our ability to leverage that unless we're being pressured by some external force to do so.

If someone's listening or watching right now but is feeling like they're a safety secure, stability motivated individual, until I gosh, is too much risk for me, it's like even the spiritual faith, everything you guys are talking about, like that's just, you know, to live in that uncertainty, to live with that much faith to to push to that degree. What are you advice for them? Like what would you say to that? Kind of I would say that security is an illusion.

I think people that are focused on security have control issues. They think that they can control the world outside of themselves and their own behavior. And I think that that is a a vast illusion that is an epidemic in our culture. I think in every moment we have this sense of, um, good things are static, like I can just stay in this place. And the truth is, with every breath, with every thought that we entertain, with every word that comes out of our mouth, we're either growing as an individual or we are regressing.

That's the truth. Right. And there is no security. Everything is a risk. We're here for a very short period of time. So my call to action to everybody is don't wait until you find yourself in some existential crisis because you've been living your life based upon some, you know, social rulebook that doesn't fit your own blueprint. Instead, embrace what is uniquely you and have the courage and the fortitude and the faith to try to bring expression to that.

It may be scary and it might contravene what your parents want for you. And it might seem risky. But ultimately, I think the riskiest thing to do is to play it safe and live your life in accordance with somebody else's expectations of what you should do and be after the holidays.

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Just egg is a delicious, nutritious way to start your day and do something good for the planet while you're at it. Just egg a better egg for you and the planet. Thank you for sponsoring this podcast. How did how did you know that you'd found something about yourself that was uniquely you like you've said that a few times now, uniquely you had how do you know when something is uniquely you? Because I feel like so many of us are either so influenced by everything that's happening or we just I feel like we've lost our ability to talk to ourselves and know that that's our voice.

Yeah, right. Like I'd say, most people, when you hear a voice, they're a voice in their head. They don't know if that's them or something else and they can't tell the difference. What are those indicators of signals where you're like, yeah, that I'm getting closer even if I'm not.

That's a really good question. And I don't have, like, a simple, pithy answer. Sure, sure. Sure. I think it's I think it's hard. You know, I think you're correct in that we're so distracted.

You know, our phones are always in our hands. There's always a reason to not be present with ourselves. And the more detached we become, the more difficult it is to know what that internal voice is. So I think the process of of of trying to understand what is uniquely you know, what is unique about Jay involves that looking inward process. Right. It's about meditation and mindfulness and getting quiet and trying to, you know, spend time contemplating, like, what was it that made you happy as a kid?

Like, what did you like to do when you were left, your own devices that now you feel like you haven't done in a long time or would be foolish as an adult to spend time doing? And maybe there's a lesson there for you to see. You know, I don't know. I can't answer that for you, but I know that those answers reside within all of us. And in order to heed them or get clarity, you really have to you really have to have the discipline to carve out that kind of quiet time.

Solitude with yourself.

What's the best advice you've received in solitude on the podcast? Is there anyone you remember that kind of you just felt embodied solitude the best or that kind of quiet of that? Yeah, I mean, there's been a couple of people, you know, of course, you have like meditation masters like Sharon Salzberg. You know, some amazing things to say about that. I think maybe the most profound, though, in the most grounded way was Yuval Noah Harari.

Yeah, we love you about how like clarity as a superpower. And now because we're so distracted, distraction is our natural disposition to just be clear and quiet, to have presence of mind, to have clarity about what you think about a particular thing is a superpower where that used to just be normal.

Right. And it kind of makes it easier to distinguish yourself because all you have to do is put the phone away, learn how to be quiet, learn how to connect with your internal voice, and that makes you much more capable than the person sitting next to you.

What was the conversation that surprised you the most? Was anyone that just totally not blow your mind, but just surprised you with a belief that maybe something you held true, but when you spoke to them, they changed your mind on it. Was there anyone like that to change your mind on something that you thought was very concrete in your life for. Hmm. And that's a big question. Yeah, I think with the. I'm always fascinated by our beliefs and how they can shift, like I've always considered myself to be someone who it's like I felt like when I was spiritually immature, I felt like I had my beliefs and they were the answers and then nothing else was true.

So what I believed was true in anyone else's answer were completely false. And then as I started to grow more, you start to realize, you know, nothing and you're like, OK, I don't know anything now because I'm not really sure about any of these beliefs. And then you get to a point where it's like, well, I have some values and beliefs. They work for me and now I'm willing to trade and upgrade based on what I'm exposed to, because now I learn that I need to have a map or a guidebook or a rule book that works because you need that for life.

Yeah, but then I hear someone say something and I'm like, oh, I like that. It's just open up my mind in a completely different way, I think.

In addition to that, what happens when you're confronted with a truth that contravenes your your worldview? The first thing that it does is it pushes that cognitive bias button and you're like, that can't be right, because this is the way I see the world. Right. So you feel the resistance coming up. So for you to say, oh, wow, I didn't think of it that way and to embrace that difference of opinion or perspective, I think is the healthiest thing to do.

So for me, it's less about, oh, here's an example and more about trying to be in that place of of empathy and compassion and openness and to notice when I feel like my resistance creeping up, whether it's somebody who has a different nutritional or dietary perspective than I do or somebody who, you know, was able to get sober and maintain their sobriety by way of a protocol that is at odds with, like how I think it should be.

And to just be like the world's a big place.

The human condition is is multivariate. Like I don't have all the answers. And to be able to sit with somebody who's coming from a different perspective and try to find mutual ground and meet them where they're at with compassion and with empathy, I think is really powerful. It's something I'm always endeavoring to do with whatever guest that I have on my show. And I think it's what's sorely lacking in our culture right now. And I think if there's anything that I'm trying to do with my show and the example that I set with how I conduct my conversations is to say, look, if we want to move forward as a healthy culture, as a healthy society, we have to be able to meet each other in our differences with compassion, with understanding.

That doesn't mean that we do it with unhealthy boundaries, but we have to be able to have mature conversations about our differences because this polarization and the separation that we're seeing and the unhealthy siloing of opinions, I think is really polluting and denigrating our ability to move forward as a as a as a healthy society and as a deeply concerning to me.

Yeah, I'm so with you. And I think that's that's a great answer because. Yeah, that that lack of judgment and openness and just stopping yourself from, like you said, letting your your controls creep in, that's probably the hardest thing. Right, because you've been on a train of thought or a school of thought since you were a kid. And it's built and built and built and it's got you to somewhere, which is probably OK. And then all of a sudden someone comes and just surprises you with what's been the best way you've found, apart from having conversation, the podcast.

Have you found that people are able to create that openness in their own lives? Is it more travel? Is it watching things that you wouldn't watch? Like what have you seen that like how can we encourage that more for people to be OK with exposing themselves to opposing ideas without placing judgment on them?

Yeah, it's tough. I mean, I think travel is a big one, right. Investing and experience. People who have who have done that tend to have broader views and perspectives and more open minded are more open minded about a variety of issues than people who just stay in one place and have their news feed.

I feel exactly the same way because I find, like as humans, we are so good at that singular judgment. It's like if one person's doing one thing that you don't agree with, you don't agree with anything they do. And and that amplification of judgment is is, you know, it can be really harsh for us. And I fall into that trap all the time. I, I make that mistake all the time where it's like and we do the opposite too.

If you like one thing, one person does you like everything they do. So we also do it with positives. Right. Because it's simpler I guess for the mind to process. It requires less thought and less intelligence to either neglect someone based on one negative or appreciate someone based on one positive. It's it's more complicated to look at the gray area.

So with that understanding, then, how does that influence how you comport yourself on social media? Right. There's this this impetus or impulse, like when something is happening, there's wrong in the world. You feel like you have a responsibility because you have this audience in this platform to voice your opinion or address it or engage in the dialogue and the arguments that surround it. Like how do you think about and practice that?

Yeah, my my focus has always been like I'm fascinated by timeless truths, like that's that's where I get my personal sensibility, my personal awareness. Everything comes from things that are timeless. So I'm not the biggest commentator on world events and I never have been. And that's not because I'm trying to stay away from them, because I think they're complicated. I stay away from them because I'm like, this is one element of another problem, another problem. And I'm trying to address the root, which I believe is timeless as opposed to the symptom that we're currently seeing.

That's my personal approach to it. I'm not saying it's the right approach or the wrong approach. It's the approach that feels more natural and. Uniquely J to me, to feel like I want to address those which are timeless truths, their roots behind what is really being affected and speak about those that are very human level. And so I've chosen to do that. And because I don't really know when a news report anything goes, I'm not really even sure if what I'm reading is perfect or right or so I'm not confident on that.

So I'd rather stick to what I believe. I am confident. All right. So that's been my approach. I'm going to dive into it. But, yeah, that's kind of that's been my way of addressing it. And I don't feel the need to address what's happening right now because I feel like we also have this obsession of we're going through the worst time or this is the worst. So this is the worst that and I'm just like, what?

I'm spending a lot of time with people who are part of the solution and are doing something about it. And I feel elevated and I feel confident that there are solutions out there because I'm spending time with people who are working on the solutions. So I don't really get a lot of joy from just talking about what's going wrong. That's rare because that's the basis of what I learned and how I was trained and also what I've been fascinated by, because I've seen stories change, facts change this, change that, change, opinions change.

Something like this stuff all is always changing. But there are some timeless truths to the roots of humanity's issues, like ego. Everyone knows the ego exists. Everyone knows the ego is an issue. You can see it every day in every form. And I could comment on everyone's ego every day in the media, but I have ego too. And so it's it's knowing that and working to the root of how do we remove ego and help people to overcome their ego.

That to me is more fascinating for me. I'm not saying that's the most important work in the world. I'm just saying it's the most important work that I can do. And I think that was a big thing for me. And I feel that talking to you, like for me becoming uniquely me was being very honest about what I could do. And so I don't see what I do is big or small. I just see as this is what I can do and that's uniquely me.

And that may not be the biggest or the best thing in the world, or it may not be the most needed thing in the world. But this is me and and that's my offering. And, you know, being OK with that. Yeah.

I mean, I think listen, I think if everybody. Was more uniquely who they are. The world would be a better place now the counterargument to that is like, listen, somebody's got to take the garbage out. And of course, I understand all of that, but I feel like we are living in a desert of authenticity in the sense that everybody is so disconnected from who they are.

And we're all reacting to this world and playing this game and trying to be these certain people, whether it's, you know, getting the, you know, the fancy car or the good job or, you know, the right suits or whatever it is. We're living for these externalities. Right. And the more that we invest in that, the less connected we are to ourselves and to divinity. Right. And to our fellow human beings. We are coming from ego and we're living in this this detached state that I think ultimately is is a disease, you know.

And so if there's anything that that I like to speak to, it's about like that reconnection process. And to the extent that we can be more connected to ourselves, into other human beings and to bring greater expression to that, the world then becomes, by virtue of that behavior, a better place. Can you have both how and why? What do you mean, like when you're saying like, because I feel like it's become very. You know, that rhetoric is very common of like, you know, these material things are taking us away from ourselves.

Yet we find that we. All have desires, we all have needs, we all have likes and dislikes, so my question is, is there a path to have things and get connected with yourself or are they opposite?

The other things are not bad in and of themselves. It's our relationship to them. OK, we project upon them. And I think the problem arises when what we project upon them is a sense of identity or contentedness or a a crafted identity that is forged through these material items or jobs or whatever it is. Right. That helps craft this narrative of identity. And at the cost of that internal journey of like connecting with who, you know, what is truly what is our heart actually saying and understanding that that that which we seek most, which is connection, happiness, contentment, purpose.

All of these things cannot be found through seeking. In the external world, they can only be found through that internal journey, and our whole culture is crafted around these externalities when in truth, what we seek most.

Is already in our possession. Yeah, and it's almost like, yeah, in the Sanskrit word is Maya, which I'm sure you're aware of. Yeah. And it's like you look at the it's funny. How am I. Yeah. And it's so funny how many places I it's funny. My friend was here from London a couple of weeks back and he'd never been to L.A. before and I took him to Hollywood Boulevard just to see Hollywood. And he was just like, this is such a letdown.

Like, you know, if you realize what Hollywood actually. Yeah, literally.

And it's like, you know, you have this dream of like Hollywood's an idea anyway. Yeah, exactly. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And it's and it's almost like the physical place never lives up to it or, you know, and you see that with so many areas in reality. I remember so many places. I was like, you have to get people and you have to go to this place. And when I went there and I was like, oh, is this it?

Like really like you don't. And I think that's almost like the.

The same feeling of when we finally acquire that thing, it's that same feeling, but it's easier to say it when you've had the option to have it or had it, of course. And that's you know, that's coming from a very privileged point, correct? No. And and what I'm saying is that how does someone this the way I had it said when I decided to become a monk, the way it worked for me is I just knew people and that wasn't me or my friends or it wasn't my family.

I had been exposed to people who had it. And genuinely and thankfully authentically express their sadness. And that was the difference maker that the people that I had met that had it, whether I saw them in a conference or I saw them at a video, they opened up and said that it didn't fulfill their needs. Right.

But here's the difference. You had the awareness or the self-awareness to recognize that and to take action on that.

But that truth, I think, is not a mystery to most people.

I mean, here we are. We're in the Hollywood Hills. You look out here, there's lots of fancy houses, lots of fancy people and fancy cars. And in this town, you can't go a day without meeting somebody who's very well-to-do and yet also very unhappy. Right. It's it is it's in the atmosphere of this city.

And most people will think, well, he just needs to get the next car or the next job or when you have that experience yourself and you get the thing that you've been aiming for and then you have a momentary sense of glee or relief, you realize how quickly it fades instead of saying, well, maybe that which I see cannot be found in the external world, instead you think, yeah, but, you know, now I just need to get the new Jaguar or the next job or when, you know, it's always it's that it's that like, you know, chasing the dragon thing that I think most people do all the way to their grave.

And that's the great tragedy, of course. So for you at a young age to be to have the self-awareness, the cognizance, to recognize that and take a contrary path, I think is is unique. Yeah.

And I owe it to just meeting amazing people when I was young. And I think that's the biggest challenge now. And what I'm trying to solve it through my podcast and even like this, like, I just feel that if you're not exposed to alternative alternative methodologies and pathways, then you can never have that option. So I would never have chosen the path that I did if I wasn't exposed to it. And today we're exposed to a finite. There was no on purpose podcast when you were in a.

Yes. Big thing like I remember being and I was at this, you know, look, I went to one of the best colleges in the world. Absolutely. Yeah. Like when I was a senior thinking like, well, what am I going to do? Like, I I had been a swimmer my whole life and now I'm faced with the prospect of trying to figure out what I wanted my career to be. And I was baffled. And I remember going to the the the career office or whatever.

Yeah.

And the council is like, yeah, there were like brochures for consulting companies and investment banks. Yeah, of course. I was like, yeah, this is it.

There was I mean, you know, look, this was 1988. There was no Internet or anything like that. There wasn't the resources that are now available to young people to help make these kinds of decisions.

And and the the variety of experiences and possibilities that they're exposed to, you know, just would have been mind blowing to me at that time.

You've mentioned your wife a bunch of times throughout this interview is being such an important part of your spiritual journey. What's been amazing for both of you together on this spiritual journey would have been some of the shared experiences or practices or methods in which you've both learned together and grown together has been an incredible partnership.

I mean, there were so many times when I just thought I was a crazy person, like I was not practicing law, not bringing in money out on my bike all day, cars getting repossessed like we couldn't pay even the smallest bills that we had. It was very humiliating and emasculating. And I remember being at my breaking point more than once and going to Julie and saying, this is ridiculous.

We have kids. I can't pay the bills like I need to go back to doing what I was doing before. And she would say no, like we already know where that path leads. I don't know where this path that you're on now is going to lead, but I know that the answers that you seek and the resolution that we need ultimately will be found through continuing along this way. Like you need to you need to do this. Now, that is extraordinary and exceptional because most partners would say, what are you doing?

A crazy person like I'm going to divorce, you know. Exactly. Get your shit together. Right.

And for her to have that kind of fortitude and that kind of faith to have my back like. I mean, who gets that, you know what I mean? Like, what an incredible thing to have.

So some people may be listening, going, wow, you're so lucky that you've got a wife is amazing. And people often say that to me as well. My wife is very supportive and amazing. But what did you what do you think you did maybe early on in the relationship? How have you continue to communicate either? What did you do before that moment that you feel built such a strong bond with your wife that she had that belief and faith in you, in that you had that for each other?

If anything, it may be nothing. And afterwards, what have you done to reciprocate with that love? So she knows that it wasn't not just that you've solved your life because that's not necessarily reciprocation. That's just what you believe. What have you done to reciprocate and and share that journey with her as a way of saying, I'm so grateful you did this? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, to the first part of the question, I definitely, you know, married above my weight class.

So I don't know if I want to tell anyone, you know, like I don't know what advice is in there other than, like, you know, try to do that.

I mean, listen, you know, my wife is an incredibly strong person and and I and that was what attracted me to her.

Like, she just had a sense about herself. So I needed that energy in my life. And that has benefited my trajectory in terms of how I pay it back and honor her for that. I mean, that's a practice, just like anything else that she's just recently started this new business, plant based cheese business. So it's now about me showing up for her in that regard and supporting her.

You know, she's written these cookbooks like I think there's something about our partnership where where we can come together. And one plus one is definitely larger than two, where we can create and make beautiful things together.

But we also respect each other's individuality and independence, like we're not reliant upon each other to complete ourselves, you know what I mean? Like like she can go and do her thing and I can go do my thing and and it's all good. We don't we don't we're not like we don't have like a porous boundary in that regard. Like we respect each other's respective fiefdoms and but then we can come together and do things cool. How did you mean in yoga class.

Nice. OK, yeah I was, I was newly sober. I was right out of rehab, I was in rehab for one hundred days in Oregon, got out of rehab, confused but understanding that I needed to do things differently, I needed a new peer group, social group. I needed healthy activities to keep me out of the bars and clubs. And I found my way to a yoga studio in West L.A. and I went every day and and met a whole new group of friends and people that became my social circle.

So I'd known her for quite some time, long before we dated. But I did a year of celibacy out of my first year of sobriety was celibate. And that was a very profound, powerful experience that I would highly recommend to anybody. And it was informed, you know, in large part because my. My relationships with the opposite sex was very intertwined in an unhealthy way with drinking and using, and I had to disentangle that and get clarity so that I could become more self actualized to be the kind of person that I would want to be in a relationship with.

So that was incredibly profound. And then I met, you know, basically I met Julie on the tail end of that one year, and I've been with her ever since. Did you ever ask her what she saw in you at that time that she was she was coming out of a divorce, so there was never a sense like, oh, we're going to be together.

Like, I thought my next girlfriend, I was coming out of a really awful relationship situation and I thought my next relationship is going to be with somebody who's younger than me, who doesn't have a lot of baggage. And it's going to be very simple. And I met Julie, who was older than me, had two sons and was getting divorced.

You know, the heart wants what the heart wants. Yeah.

I don't think either of us was really in a great place to be in a long term relationship all of a sudden. But sometimes that's the way these things work out. And we've been together for 20 years or 20 years. This is amazing. I look for to meaning what was that? What was that one year of celibacy like was the toughest part of that year. And how did you how did you even get the idea or the resolve that that was going to be the antidote to the experience you were having with women?

And oh, god, when I was in treatment, I was very aware that. That, you know, I'd reached a sort of nadir in my life, you know, I always thought of myself as this smart, ambitious, upwardly mobile person. I got in in all these I had all the stuff, you know, the resume stuff to make me look good. And yet here I was, this seemingly intelligent person who found himself in a mental institution.

So my best thinking landed me in a place that I never thought I would be. And that was a profound reality and realization that I had to take to heart. And what that did was it created a willingness in me to receive help from other people. I never wanted to ask for help, let alone receive it. But I was in a in a in a in a place of great willingness to do that. And it was impressed upon me that that my relationships with women were dysfunctional and unhealthy.

And I needed to relearn how to do that. And I was told that this would be a good way to do it, celibacy. And I was in a place of just saying, yes, like if you tell me if you're telling me that this will make me better, then I will do that rather than, well, how is that going to help, you know, like questioning? That's what kept me drunk for a long time. So I just decided I was going to say yes to all of these things, and that was one of them.

And it was difficult. And what you realize is, is how much you or at least I can only speak from my own experience, but the extent to which I was using relationships to medicate myself in the same way I was using drugs and alcohol, if I felt uncomfortable or in a in a state of dis ease, I could seek validation or distract myself through the opposite sex in the same way a drink or a drug would do that. And I think just understanding that helped me like unclutter or detach from that dynamic in a way that helped me then figure out a better, healthier way for having that interaction.

And I think when you say, listen, I'm not dating, I'm not having sex, I'm like, I'm celibate for a year. It's incredibly like it's a very powerful thing because then it strips away, like basically it removes all of the the kind of manipulation and ego that goes into, like, every interaction that you have with the opposite sex and makes you very aware how much you do that. And also, it's like you're standing in your power because you don't need anything from another human being.

And I think that helps you reframe all of it.

And I like I said, like, I would highly recommend anybody who's who's challenged in their relationships to explore that in themselves.

I love hearing that from you because I literally just in my book, I write about being celibate for three years and I was trying to figure out how to explain it and express it in a way that I felt people would be able to understand what was truly achieved from it. And and it's funny because in my literally my book, I literally wrote about how they're the one of these definitions of the monk brahmacharya in Sanskrit is right. Use of energy. And he talks about the amount of energy that is wasted on the ego, impressing the manipulation sometimes or the coercing of the opposite sex and and how much of that time and energy and mental space saved is so powerful for creativity and wisdom and insight and spiritual revelation.

And so, yeah, it's good hearing you say it gives me it gives me even more affirmation.

You become very aware like you notice. Yeah. Oh, like I'm feeling like I want to do this but I'm not going to do like you just create there's a lot of self awareness that.

Yeah. That comes as a result of that practice.

I mean, we're in the last two segments of today's podcast, so we've got fill in the blanks, which is a new addition that we've started. So I'm going to say this. You've got to finish the sentences. So fitness was always a spiritual practice.

I like what it feels like to be who I am.

Changing your path can set you free or imprison you. Running the rat race will lead to your demise. OK, I work towards greater self actualization and service. Social constructs are illusions.

OK, so these are your final five.

You have to answer in one word to one sentence maximum. So your final five. The first question is what have you been chasing in your life that you no longer pursue? You know, I would like I said, like I'd love to say, like, oh, external validation. How do you know when you are not following your intuition or you're going against your intuition?

How do you know personally you can feel you can if you're if you're relatively connected to yourself, you can feel that dissonance. I really do feel like it feels it feels like a disease. It feels like was like a slow creeping anxiety, like when your actions are not aligned with your values, you know. Mm. Yeah.

And I think if you if you continue to deny it then the universe makes it known to you, it starts knocking and it knocks louder and then it locks and yeah. It's like yeah maybe you should stop drinking you know. Yeah. Your two year three year four then the cops get involved you know. Good.

Yeah. Fair, fair. Question number three, if, if you could create a law for everyone in the world to follow, what would it be.

Oh wow. I really do think the most important thing is to is to cultivate self-love, because that's the foundation upon which all good things will come. Mm hmm. Beautiful. Question number four, what is your best parenting advice if you have if you have a piece of advice? Oh, there's so many. I mean, one thing I would say is. Your job is to love your kids, it's not their job to love you. Now, there's a lot packed into that and there's a lot in there to us, and I can just leave it.

Yeah, leave it there. We'll have to go into the home party, OK. Fifth and final question of the final five. What is the greatest lesson you've learned in the last 12 months?

I think the thing in the last 12 months that that. Has really been impressed upon me is the sheer impermanence of everything, like at 53 now I'm starting to confront my mortality in a way that that I didn't in my 40s. And when we see kind of the fragility of social structures out there and now we're dealing with environmental crises and the coronavirus and all of these things, like we tend to think like we're in a post history world and we're just not.

And as I age and confront my own mortality and see the kind of the impermanence of everything out in the world, you realize how meaningless but how unimportant most of the things are that we concern ourselves with on a daily basis. Amazing. Thank you, Rich.

Fantastic. Thank you, Michel. It is a brilliant conversation. Thank you so much for sharing. So vulnerable and authentically. I really feel like. Yeah, every answer you gave was was, you know, truly uniquely you and and genuine to you. So I really appreciate them and thank you so much. And everyone has been watching. Please, please, please go and follow and check out Rich Role on Instagram, the Rich World podcast. Make sure you can subscribe to his podcast, follow on Instagram and anything that he said today or that we share today in our conversation.

Please, please, please make sure that you go and post on Instagram with the quote, with the thought, with the idea. Tag us both in the post as well. I love seeing what you learn and take away from these episodes. You mean the world to me. Thank you so much for listening to On Purpose, and I'll see you again next week.

This podcast was produced by Dust Light Productions, our executive producer from Dust lt is Michelle Usif. Our senior producer is Julianna Bradley. Our associate producer is Jacqueline Castillo. Valentino Rivera is our engineer. Our music is from Blue Dot Sessions and special thanks to Rachel Garcia, the dust like development and operations coordinator. Hey, everybody. Marianne Williamson here. Guess what, it's going to be a big shock to you.

I'm going to be the one million seven hundred sixty seven thousand person to start a podcast, and this one is going to be really good.

My guest today is Andrew Yang. What I appreciate about my relationship with you, Andrew, is I feel that you and I, on a personal level, can share both perspectives. And I always appreciate the opportunity to have a public conversation with you, because that back and forth that you and I have, I believe, really does embody a back and forth that exists in the hearts and minds of a lot of people.

I am both uplifted by you and learn from you every time we talk. And you're just a very elevated person and truth teller and spending even this time with you. Like, I feel like it sharpens my thinking. It sharpens my perception of the need.

I agree with everything you say tax policy should be just education policy should be just health policy should be just there should be criminal justice. There should be economic justice. But it's you know, if you don't learn the Bill of Rights as a child, you don't know as an adult to be horrified when it's under an assault.

Exactly right. So I think what you're getting at is something I think about all the time, which is, I think, one of the great challenges of this moment.

And it's an exciting challenge, but very difficult is we are now called to find a way to both love our country and tell the truth about it at the same time.

So now we need to show the evidence of love. You know, when hatred and bigotry are harnessed for political purposes, we need to now match that with love and decency and dignity.

Please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and join me.

I can't wait.