Our 20s are often seen as this golden decade, our time to be carefree, make mistakes, and figure out our lives. But what can psychology teach us about this time? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of The Psychology of Your 20s. Each week, we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, and much more to explore the science behind our experiences. The Psychology of Your 20s, hosted by me, Gemma Speg. Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Jennifer Lopez here with a new season of My Overcomfort podcast. What's Overcomfort all about? It's about inspiring confidence in all of us and choosing calling Overcomfort. Every Tuesday, I'll be having real and honest conversations. You'll hear it from me first before any cheeseman hits your social media feed. Join me as I create a space where opening up is not only okay, it's encouraged. Listen to Over Comfort podcast with Jennifer Lopez on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, all. Nimmany here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called historical records.

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Simultaneously, the hardest moments of my life are coupled with the most beautiful moments of my life every time. It actually became a joke during the making of this album because when I would walk into the studio and people would see on my face immediately if I'm having anxiety or panic, and they would be like, We're going to write a good song today.

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Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty.

The one, the only, Hey, everyone.

Welcome back to On Purpose. I am so grateful to be with you in this very, very special place today with a human that I'm so lucky to call a friend. And it's strange sitting opposite him with a microphone in front of me, because this is not usually how we spend time together. I can honestly say that this individual is someone you already know. He needs no introduction. But whenever he speaks, you hear truth in his voice. Whenever Whenever he sings, you hear his heart through it. Whenever he's around anyone, I've seen him light up every room he walks into and radiate goodness and genuineness around him. And his new music is going to do that in such a powerful, beautiful, thoughtful way, and I can't wait for you to hear it. And we're so lucky that we get to be in the womb of where his work is being created right now. I'm sitting down with my dear friend, incredible musician, phenomenal human, and all around great dude, Shawn Mendes. Shawn, it's good to see you, man.

Crazy. Finally.

Finally. After Four years of hikes.

It feels longer than four years, man.

It does feel like four years. But yesterday night, I went back and traced back the first time we messaged. 2020? 2020, yeah. So I was like, Yeah. I was like, I thought it was longer, too. But it's been a lot of deep time there.

Yeah, it's been crazy. We've been talking about wanting to do this, but I knew the right time would just appear, and it just feels like so the right time. I guess for everyone, you guys don't really know that the last four years, Jay and I had this beautiful relationship where we go on these hikes and we just catch up. You've been beyond gone there for me for so long. I love you. I'm so grateful, and this is so important to me, and I'm honored to be here, and it's just all the things, man. Yeah, truly.

Brother, thank you for saying that. The feeling is mutual. I think it's really interesting when you connect with someone and you're being kind and saying, I was there for you, but I think you've equally been there for me.

Hope so.

You've helped me see things in myself that I wouldn't have seen if I didn't know you. I think watching you reflect through the process you've through in the last four years and watching you be so inward-focused forced me to do more self-work as well. I think it's been a beautiful mutual relationship. But let's dive straight into it. I actually want you to share with people where we are because this is not my studio, and we're in this beautiful place, and I think you're the best person to give us a visual tour if you're watching and if you're listening.

Yeah, if you're listening, we're sitting in the middle of a live room in a studio called the Clubhouse in upstate Rheinbeck, New York. If you're watching, you're seeing all the beautiful candles and stuff. This is probably one of my favorite places in the whole world. This is the room that Oh, man. I've made all of my albums here, all of my music, and I've had some of the most magical moments of my life in this room. I'm going to be probably a little emotional just even sitting in here just because as I sit here and as we talk, it's just memories circling around of just time. Yeah, it's an amazing studio.

Yeah, you can feel it. I felt it when I walked in and I can feel it right now. There's a different energy in here. I'm so grateful that you allowed us to come in and share this with the rest the world through this interview. It's really beautiful, actually, being in a space where an artist creates and moves and cries and breathes. I think it's rare. You don't really get access to that. I think you go see artists in a concert or in a public space, but you don't really get this. I thought where I wanted to start this interview is roll back to your announcement about tour, and you talk about this in your song, Who I am, you say, and I'm going to be looking at my notes a lot because I haven't yet learned all your lyrics off by heart, and I know the fans are going to be really heartbroken. They're like, Jay, have you not done this yet? But if I'm on my phone, I'm reading lyrics back to you. In Who I am, it says, It broke my heart when I canceled tour, had my soul and my heart going back and forth.

I wanted to read the message you actually put up on Instagram at the time because I remember it going out. We were talking about it.

You were talking the night before. You were actually the person I texted at 1:00 AM that night when I was just in complete spin of what to do. I just remember feeling so much like... I think in those situations, it feels really hard to ask people to give you advice or to give you an opinion because it's such a big deal to do something like that. I remember assuming you were going to reply something along the lines of, You can do it. You got it. We can do this. We can figure out a way. You were just in the most loving way. I can't remember exactly something along the lines of just whatever you need, take care of yourself. I remember when I read that, my whole body just sunk into the bed and I was like, Oh, God. Yeah, that was really important to me. So thank you for that. But yeah. Sorry, go on.

No, I'm so glad that you remember that. I remember you telling me that on One tour, an artist has to do something like, or someone like yourself has to do like 150 shows minimum. I remember asking you, at what point do you feel like you can't do another show? You said around like 50. I was just like, what? I was like, so wait, you have to do 100? It was so funny because I went on my world tour last year. I only did 40 shows. I felt it around 33. I was like, wow, Sean would have to.

It probably has something to do with to when the end is.

Yeah, for 50 is early.

Any race.

Anyway, you said there were two terms you posted about it, but this one you said, This breaks my heart to have to say this, but unfortunately, I'm going to have to postpone the next three weeks of shows. I've been touring since I was 15, and to be honest, it's always been difficult to be on the road away from friends and family. After a few years off the road, I felt like I was ready to dive back in, but the decision was premature, and unfortunately, the toll of the road and the pressure has caught up to me, and I've hit a breaking point. After speaking with my team and health professionals, I need to take some time to heal and take care of myself and my mental health, first and foremost. As soon as there are more updates, I promise you I will let you know. Love you guys. Walk me through how hard that time was for you, mentally, physically, even before having to send that message. Because I think when people see that message, they think you've just decided But really, it's something you've been holding for months, weeks, maybe even years.

I think the reality is anyone who does anything at a high level knows that it's hard. It's hard. Anything you want to do that's extraordinary is hard. There are going to be these moments where it feels really hard and it feels like you can't do it. In that, I think every athlete or performer or anyone knows that there are these dips and these peaks, and that's just part of it. The problem is that for me, the hardest part about being in a state of... I don't even know the right word to describe it, but you could say depression, you could say anxiety, you could say just general darkness or lowness. The hardest thing about that is not the feeling that way. It's that the feeling that way makes you look at your life through that lens, and therefore all the love that's around you and all the people who are loving you and supporting you, you can't even see that love anymore. And so it's all just getting consumed by this feeling. I've done a lot of tours, and I've been in hard places before. And I think the reality was that it just became really, really clear to me that I needed to diversify in life, and that since I was a kid, my entire life had been about one thing.

It had been about performing and making music and just a constant cycle. It was amazing. But the reality is that I really do believe the all your eggs in one basket is a dangerous way. I was the number one root of like, I have no plan B. I don't have plan B. And I had nowhere to go when things were getting hard. I didn't have other aspects of life that I felt connected to that I could have leaned into to have a little bit of a break from touring and come back and just find that balance. And I knew there was only one way of doing that, and it was by step by step, just creating a life. Canceling that tour was It was by far the hardest decision of my life and by far the greatest decision of my life. It gave me a life. It gave me time to discover so much about myself. I'm smiling now because it's so far away. But it did so much for me.

Who did you feel? I know later on you talk about in the same song, this idea of, I feel pressure from the people that I love and it hurts, but I know I got to do it, got to put me first. Who do you feel you were letting down at the time, yourself and others?

I think the reality is not just as the artist, it's not just you that sacrifices everything to do that. You have a team of almost 100 people who are away from their families for a year, and they're every day working. They're not sleeping. They're sacrificing everything to put this show on. That was one of the hardest pills to swallow. It was just like, oh, man. They are excited, too. You got to be an insane person to be a touring crew or anyone on tour. You have to truly love it. You have to understand that this is profoundly greater than you and what's happening is magical. It was not letting people down and we've worked so hard. It was like, oh, man, People were excited. People were proud of what they created. That was the hard part.

I remember when we would talk about it then, there was also this weight around it where it was like you'd had this growth period in your life where, as you said, you've been doing this since you were 15. Then all of a sudden, you were getting the growth opportunity to say, I get to make my own decisions now. I remember just learning from you about that dynamic of young people who become successful and famous and very, very early on. It's like you're still a kid. Then all of a sudden, you're like, Oh, well, am I allowed to make my own decisions? Am I allowed to say I don't want to do something? Walk me through a bit of that reflective process, because I think it's not an age thing. I think we all go through. We all go through this arc in our life where we go- Am I going to be the one to make the decisions now?

Am I going to take the responsibility? I think that's the hardest part is it really comes down to the moment you're prepared to take responsibility for your life and for everything that goes wrong and for everything that goes right. It's hard because your whole life, you have your parents to either rely on. You look at them and they go, Okay, yeah, well, they said. It's always like you can deflect that responsibility onto someone else, whether it's my manager or someone. That was just like, this is going to be a big decision I make, and then there's going to be repercussions here, and I'm going to have to be responsible for it. Yeah, it's just like that. And the beautiful thing is that once I did that, it felt like now, okay, that was the big one. And then every other little decision, it was like, well, here I am making another decision. And you go, I'm sorry to bring my sister into this, but for you, Alia. But she was like, I don't want to. She's like, I just not have the responsibility. And I'm like, that's not how it works. Once you start taking responsibility, you just got to keep taking responsibility.

And it's simultaneously grueling, but also so much more rewarding because when it goes well, it's you who put yourself in that position. So, yeah.

You said something beautiful just now. You said it was the hardest decision and it was the greatest decision. Have you found those two things often go together, or would you say that's not the case?

I find that simultaneously, the hardest moments of my life are coupled with the most beautiful moments of my life every time. It actually became a joke during the making of this album because when I would walk into the studio and people would see on my immediately if I'm having anxiety or panic, and they would be like, We're going to write a good song today. Every time there was some healing crisis that had to happen, I had to get through this pain, this fear, this anxiety, these tears, this anger, something. And on the other end of that was just plain truth. And plain truth was just the best ingredients for a song. How does an artist ever find peace then? That's That's a great question. I think I would be following through, and I do follow through, even if there's no song to write. I think we're so taught, especially in so many societies and cultures, but I feel like in the West, we're so taught to just there's a time and place for things. If you're in an interview and tears are about to come, if you're in an interview and anger is about to happen, you can't let that happen.

I really have noticed that if you can just express it in an honest, calm way, most likely a more beautiful thing is going to come through that than what you desired. I would do that if there was no song that came out of it. That's my way of moving through life. It's like I head to the gym and I'm like, if I walk into the gym today and keep crying in the gym, that's the better outcome.

You do live like that.

I do, yeah.

You do live like that. I haven't said it yet, but this This album, it's so fascinating for me to see it from the moment that we're talking about now to then its creation, because I remember when it was you trying to figure out your voice and figure out who you are as an artist, as a person, as a human. Now when I listen to it, it almost sounds so effortless and true and authentic in this really flowing way, this channeling experience of even listening to it. I couldn't believe it when I listened to it because I was like, wow, you did it. That's how I felt. I was like, you did it and then something. It far superseded any of the expectations I would have had in the conversations we had of how you were thinking about it.

Well, yeah. It's like you have the idea of... If I said to you, six months ago, I want to make the most honest album I've ever made, then you start having ideas of what that sounds like and what that looks like. Then at some point, actually in the studio, at some point, when you're done with all the ideas of what you are trying to force it to become, there's a breaking point and you surrender to it and the album starts to become what it's meant to be. You just have to roll with that.

Yeah. That's hard, though.

It's super hard.

How do you trust that? Because I feel like we're living-It's exhausting. Because we're living at this time where I feel like everything's perfectly engineered and manufactured and even authenticity is programmed and developed. And then you're trying to say, Well, no, I actually want to create something like that. But then how do I not engineer it?

Something that I learned on this process was just the foundation, the first brick you lay, if that brick is a brick of authentic truth, if you work really hard to get to that place, and that first brick you lay is truth, each brick after that will be much easier. I remember it felt like as long as every word I say comes out of my... The writers I was working with, everyone became so attuned to me saying something. If I was saying it, and then I was quincing after it, if I was saying it, and then it just didn't sound right coming in my mouth, we would just be like, All right, that's not it. It needs to have that, like you said, that natural flow. And that first brick just set a foundation for truth to just be it. And now we're at the point where anything that really isn't in that space is so obvious that we can't even put it next to it. If you start there, it's so much easier to build. It's so much harder to start in a place of, I want to be perceived this way. And then halfway through that be like, I want this to feel like truth because it itself gets confused.

I was saying this to Helena the other day, yesterday, when we were driving from Boston last night. And I was just saying that I'm at a point in my life where I just want to experience. I don't want to think about... It's not that I want to be irresponsible and not think about consequences or repercussions, but there are certain experiences that I want to open myself up to, regardless of how they're perceived or how I may have perceived them in the past, because that's the only way I'm going to actually get to live. Exactly. If I'm constantly curating and perfectly managing every part of my appearance, perception, reputation, whatever-Environment. Environment, I don't actually get to live or breathe or It's a good experience. When I hear you talk, I feel like that's something I definitely learned from you because there's been this part of you that's just been so open to being all of yourself and not having to pick. There was one lyrics where you say, Y, Y, Y. You say, I stepped off the stage with nothing left. All the lies are with my head. Yeah. Fing with my head. What were the lies?

Oh, lights is the lyrics. Oh, sorry. You're going to get the fans there.Oh.

My bad. There we go. I messed up. There you go. There we go. There we go. There we go.

I messed up. No, it's the lights.

I thought it was lies.

I heard lies. I mean, no lies. I mean, maybe lies internally. But yeah, I think the lights and metaphorically, I think it was just more so It had so much to do with perception, just this constant focus on what I look like and what I feel like to the world. I didn't even know at that point what I felt like and what I looked like to myself. There was a real stripping down process that had to happen. And it took me a long time. But up until, I would say, the creation of this album, I don't remember the last time I felt so just myself. Probably the last time was when I was nine or 10, honestly.

What was it about nine or 10 that felt so true?

Not having the need to cover the layers of what I was feeling. I was just an expressing ball. I'm probably more emotional today, similarly to how I was when I was nine. I guess just that not having the words and the stories that you've been told as you start to grow up, spinning in my head and just expressing truth of who I am. I'm lucky, too, man. I know that a lot of people, they're not surrounded by people who are maybe accepting or embracing of that truth. And I know that's hard. And I think I have a lot of compassion for that. And the reality is that I wasn't around a lot of people who were. And I think part of starting to just strip back those layers is also to just maneuver the people you're around in your life and starting to be around people who you can be like that with. And it just becomes a feedback loop of positive, honest, reinforcing And then you look around one day and you're like, Oh, all these people in this room really love Sean.

Walk me through that discomfort, because I think it's easy to jump from a canceled tour to, I'm in the studio making new music, and we both know it wasn't like that. Yeah, no, not at all. Walk me through. So one thing in the discomfort you're saying is surrounding yourself with people that allow you to be yourself, allow you to be and figure it What else were really important principles that guided you through that no man's land, through that desert of time? What was it for you that showed you that North Star when things were dark?

So many things. I think the process of healing and moving through a dense moment in your life is not just sticking to one thing. It's really using everything at your fingertips, and whether that was therapy or whether that was friendship or it was reading or it was music or what it was. It was just a mixture of all of it. I think the hardest thing for me in my life has been this wanting to always have the perception of strength and altogether and grounded and still. When I started to allow myself to really... I think it's like you got to really feel pain to let your ego get out of the way when When I started to really allow myself to lean on my family and my friends and also just reach out to people and be like, that was just such a huge part of it. I didn't know at the time, but just using the people around me to support me was a huge part of it. And being open to not knowing how to get through it and just letting people maybe help me how they can, and they might have their own way.

There's a song on the album called Heavy, and it's just so much of it is just It's hard about letting people who love you help you. It's hard. People talk a lot about it's hard to give love. It's hard to be in that state. But man, receiving love, when love is in front of you and it's trying to give itself to you through someone, that's a hard thing to receive. It's really hard. A lot of people, including myself, just want to freeze up. So my new thing is instead of walking into a room when I'm feeling bad holding it, the first thing I'll do is just literally lean on someone, physically. Hey, can I have some love? And I need it. And that changes. It shifts so much.

The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is an NAACP and Webby award-winning podcast dedicated to all things mental health self, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. Here, we have the conversations that help Black women decipher how their past inform who they are today and use that information to decide who they want to be moving forward. We chat about things like how to establish routines that center self-care, what burnout looks and feels like, and defining what aspects of our lives are making us happy and what parts are holding us back. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday. Listen to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Take good care, and we'll see you there. Our 20s are seen as this golden decade. Our time to be care free, fall in love, make mistakes, and decide what we want from our life. But what can psychology really teach us about this decade? I'm Gemma Speg, the host of The Psychology of Your 20s.

Each week, We take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, friendships, and much more to explore the science and the psychology behind our experiences. Incredible guests, fascinating topics, important science, and a bit of my own personal experience. Audrey, I honestly have no idea what's going on with my life. Join me as we explore what our 20s are really all about, from the good, the bad, and the ugly, and listen along as we uncover how everything is psychology, including our 20s. The psychology of your 20s, hosted by me, Gemma Spegg. Now streaming on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever You get your podcasts. When you find that bright spot to help you get through your day, it's powerful. That's where The Bright Side comes in. A new daily podcast from Hello Sunshine that's bringing you a daily dose of joy. I'm Danielle Robé. And I'm Simone Bois. Listen, both Danielle and I are reporters. We've covered the news, and we know the world can feel heavy. But the Bright Side podcast is a space to have a little fun, to learn something new, and get into some friendly debates.

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Yeah, that's so powerful. That's so powerful. I love that. And I feel like I remember in the beginning when we'd hang out, if you weren't feeling good, there'd be a part of you be like, I don't think I want to hang today. Yeah, exactly. Then that switch of what you're saying where it's like, Oh, no, no matter how I feel, I need to lean in. I love that.

That's freeing. If I can only hang out with you when I'm feeling still and at peace and coming from a very high perspective, I am like, I got 3% of the time. I think even for doing something like this podcast, when we first met each other, I used to be like, Oh, I got to get to this degree of calm and understanding of life. The reality is I don't have a deeper understanding of life. I just have a deeper acceptance of self. That allows me sit here and be like, Hey, here it is. This is what we got. That has changed everything to me. It frees you from so much. You can just be like, Hey, that's actually a huge part of it. I used to Before I would get out of a car and go into a social situation or before I would, I just would say, I'm moving as fast as I can. I cannot be healing any quicker than this. This is it. I'm here. So let's be this. Yeah.

And it trips us up. I feel like we're trying to be something we're not or trying to be something we're not feeling. We're trying to feel something we don't genuinely feel in the moment, whether it's us trying to be more confident, trying to be more calm, trying to be more whatever else it may be, fill in the blank. And it lets us down.

Letting yourself down, too. There's a part of you that you're just telling yourself, you're telling that part of yourself, You're not good enough to be around these people or to be in front of this camera.

What was the hardest question you had to ask yourself during this whole period? What was the question that you asked yourself the most often that you sought the answer for?

It was I was just general direction. I remember so many times I was just driving my car aimlessly, and I would just be like, literally, I think the verbatim The words I said out of my mouth were like, You're exactly where you're supposed to be. You're exactly where you're meant to be. I know it might not look like what you thought it was supposed to look like. It might not feel like what you thought, but something about this is it. And there was just a lot of beautiful things that happened in that time. I moved to LA, and I didn't really have a lot of people around at that time. I remember I went to this coffee shop every morning, and I got a coffee. And as I was sitting there, I was telling myself this, I saw this one guy. His name is Josh. He's a great human. And he's reading this book. I think it's called When Things Fall Apart. He was reading that book for two years sitting on the coffee shop. And I went up to him and said, What's this book? He introduced me to another friend and another friend.

And after I knew it, it's like every day, there's three or four of us would sit around having coffee. And it was just little group therapy sessions. And it just became the best thing the world to me. It was like, 9:00 AM, we're going to go talk it out. And it was exactly where I was supposed to be at that time. And it was so weird and awkward and uncomfortable. But, man, it really... Yeah, really. That little thing changed my life.

It was funny because people always tell me, I just saw Sean hanging around a coffee shop.

I'd sit there for hours. They started calling me the mayor of the coffee shop.

And it started to become this thing where everyone would watch it and be like, What's going on here? I feel like you really took shelter in building your men's circle and your men's group and having that ability to have a group of men around you that you could be honest with and open with. What was unique about that? Why was that such an interesting thing to build? Because I know you'd always talk to me about that as well, this group that you were nourishing and culturing.

I had a couple. I had this coffee men's group, and I had this other beautiful men's group simultaneously happening. I think Just having men from all ages, from all parts of the world who do all different things, really just show up and strip it all back and just be brave in front of you. I remember something someone, something, someone, something, I don't know, told me, when someone is sharing something hard with you, nine times out of 10, you don't have to say anything back because the most healing part about that experience is just to be witnessed in your pain. I think it's just that. It's like to be witnessed in your pain and for the person in front of you not to be like, I don't want this. It's just for them to... When you open your eyes and the pain is over and you look up and they're still there like, Hey, man, still here. That's beyond. In simple ways, that's been a huge part of it.

Yeah. I like that you were playing that role while you were receiving that. I think there's something really interesting about that.

It's empowering. You're simultaneously being vulnerable and then also listening to other people go through their stories and you're empowered to be strong and hold for them. And it's just a beautiful process.

Because I think a lot of us feel like when I get there-I'll be strong enough. Then I'll be strong enough to hold space for others. It's almost like this simultaneous mutual holding is what we all need. And you're actually When are you going to be better at holding others if you allow yourself to be held and if you practice holding others, even when you have nothing to hold them with. Exactly. And that balance is what creates that structure, that foundation that you're resting on. The roots. You were talking about this, you're talking about heavy. And in the song, you say, It's been so heavy, it's been so long, running from everything and nothing at all. I was thinking about that a lot. I was like, so often we think things are so heavy and there's so much going on, and then at the same time, you're like, But it's not there. Walk me through that dilemma. This is the constant dilemma.

It's like in reality, there is a lot going on. And then also in reality, it's okay oftentimes, too. It's that internal perspective that you're going through. And I felt like, yeah, just running when you have the money and the ability to be on the constant move and run. I just ran, and I was just never still. And it was like I couldn't figure out how to get away from the feeling that was feeling so bad. At some point, I was just like, okay. A friend of mine was like, Hey, man, wherever you go, there you are. And at that point, I was just like, okay, I got to let it hit me. And Yeah, that was just a big part of it. It's just, like I said, the realization that when you move all of the stuff out of the way, it just drops into the truth. It's really hard to get to that place when all of the noise gets out of the way. It's very hard to get to that state. But sometimes when you do, it allows you to look around and be like, Okay, actually, it's okay.

Were you running away from Fame? Was What was it? What did you feel you were running away from? Was there a point where you were like, I don't want to be famous? I don't want to have the platform?

Absolutely. I think just more of what I felt like the Fame was doing to my mind. I was letting it do to my mind. And it all was based around perception. And just all I wanted to feel was comfortable in my own body and not crawling in my skin from every word that would come out of my mouth to the way I would sit in a chair, everything. I think it just takes time because the reality is that If you spend your life around cameras and around social media and around people who are constantly talking about the way you look, the way you sound, the way you act in a way that has more to do with a performance and perception, then that is what you're to be focused on. If you're stuck in that spinning, you need to put yourself around people who are doing the opposite of that, who are not worried about how you're acting, not worried about what you're saying, not worried about how you're sitting. And just existing. I had to just reconnect with that. That's why I named the album, Sean, too. I just felt like, yeah, just that process of stripping just took so long.

A lot of it is just like, I think a lot of it is this idea of who I wanted to be in this world, this image of perfection. Even right now, I'm just like, Oh, man, thank God for everything because I'm sitting here and I really am not having tons of intrusive thoughts about, are you saying the right thing? Are you doing the right It just is. I'm just grateful for that. It's a nice feeling. I just got to check on that for a second.

I'm glad you're feeling that way. That's why I say when I was doing the intro, I felt that way because we always talk about these things anyway. It's even strange having all this stuff. It was funny because I was noticing something that was happening in our conversation. I'd be halfway through a talk and you'd lead on it. You wouldn't even let me ask the question. No, and I was like, But that's what we would do. That's what we do. We would never have perfect pauses. And I was liking that. I was appreciating that. I was noticing it going, Oh, this is really nice. I'm not even finishing my tour, and Sean already knows what I'm about to say. And I was like, I'm glad that we're doing that. When we start I had this. I was like, Yeah, this doesn't need to be a performance because it's real. That doesn't need to be done. So keep doing it. Is that what I'm saying? I will. And I'm happy that you're feeling there's no intrusive thoughts. I think that constant filtering that we always live in is exhausting.

It's exhausting, man.

I remember you told me about some of the pressures back then that came from different sources of like, Oh, if you want to be the biggest artist, then you have to do this. If you don't do this now, then you won't be as big as so and so, whatever. I was thinking about that, and when I met you, you were, whatever, 22 years old or something. And it's like, gosh, hearing that as a 22-year-old, and then you hear about TikTokers who are taking off, and they're hearing about it at 18 years old I was 16 years old. And you probably heard it when you started at 15. That can really push someone into only caring about those things. Yeah, of course. What did that stripping away look like? We always talk about this. You look great. You're dressing well. The hair looks good. How have you got to a point where you can care, but then still be detached?

I think that's part of it. Actually, honestly, my tendency is to be very extreme. A lot of what I work on in therapy is just finding this middle ground, is to not be in these black and white binaries. And I oftentimes, I went from wanting to look like the image of perfection to I'm just going to go be a man in the woods. And I don't care what I look like. I don't care what you think. And there's a good period, I'm sure, of paparazzi photos where people could tell.

We'll find them in.

Yeah. And I think it took me a long time to also come back around to just caring about how you look and caring that type of stuff. There's nothing wrong with that. It's actually a beautiful thing. It's just when you start to be completely consumed by it. And so I started to find a middle ground again where I was like, Okay, you know what? You can care. Just don't kill yourself caring. The extremes, they don't work for me anymore.

I don't think they work for any of us.

No, they don't, man. They don't. The second you can start allowing room for complete paradox to exist in your life and the number one thing I say in therapy is, Yeah, I know I'm feeling this, and I'm also feeling this at the same time, and that's okay. It's just creating more space all the time.

You have this song Heart of Gold. This was something that stood out to me. You say, I'm sorry that I wasn't there to hug your mama at the funeral. I didn't cry. I didn't even feel the pain. Then it hit me all at once when we talked about it yesterday. Walk me through who that was and what happened there.

When I was young, when I was 12, 13, I had a friend. His name was Diomi. My friend Brian, you know Brian. Him and I and Diomi were just great friends, and we spent a lot of time together. He was an awesome dude. He was a lot like me. He was a very sensitive dude. I really, really connected with him. When I was 15, obviously, he got signed, started making music, and went off and started touring. Then him and Diomy and I just started to disconnect. I don't know exactly how old I was, but I think I was about, I was probably 15, 16, 17. Brian would call me and say, Hey, he would say, Diomy has gotten into drugs and stuff. ' Just thinking about his mom. His mom's name is Gail. Hoping that she sees the beauty in the story of talking about him and hope it's okay. But when I was around 18, Brian called me one day and he said, Hey, man, do you know me? He passed away in his He was asleep last night. Yeah, he overdosed. I remember when I heard it, Brian was on the phone crying, and I was just somewhere on tour.

I just felt numb. I didn't really feel anything. Just hung up. I just went on with everything. And time just went on. Sitting in the studio about three months ago, and I keep hearing this title, Heart of Gold, and ask myself, What is this song about? What's this song about? Scott, who I make a lot of music with, he looks over at me and he goes, Didn't you have a friend who passed away from an overdose? And the second he said that Brian was in the room. Brian goes, Are you talking about Diomi? The second he said Diomi's name, it just hit me. Years of not processing it, just all hit me. We sat there and sobbed. The song, man, it was a hard song to write. It just felt like a letter. It felt like a letter to my friend that I never got to... The things I never got to say to him. I imagine that when you die of an overdose, especially as someone as sweet and kind and loving as him, you wake up wherever you wake up, and there potentially is this moment of what happened. Not that he needs it, but it just felt like a good opportunity to just be like, Hey, man, we love you, and you had a heart of gold, and we're down here thinking about you.

It's one of my favorite songs to play, man. It's just this beautiful golden light, and he is just this super swaggy dude, and it holds his energy. Every time we play it, I just imagine this huge golden light beaming up from the place we're in, wherever he is, just reaching him. I love that song.

You want to play a little?

I could play it for you on the song on the phone after.

But yeah, man. I love that song as well. I was intrigued because that wasn't something I was aware of.

Yeah. It's funny, man, how these things are when you're open to the truth and what wants to come out of you and what wants to be made. Yeah, it's unexpected. It was extremely healing. It's still very healing to just sing that song out to him every time I play it now.

Have you played it for his family?

I haven't, actually. I have to go back to Pickering and play it for his mom.

How do you think she'll-React?

I don't know. I think she'll love It's really nice. She's an amazing human being. I always had an amazing connection with her. So I could see her just like, she's just a badass, just totally rocking to it and loving it. Special family, special human.

It's nice to immortalize it in a song and- It is. Immortalize him.

Yeah, it is. Really nice. Never wrote about death in that way before.

Was it a process of forgiving your sofa not having a family.

Yeah, walk me through that. Yeah, that was a lot of it. A lot of it was the guilt for not reaching out or the guilt for not being there for him or even more so, just the guilt for not being at his funeral and seeing his mom and all this stuff. But music has this funny way of healing in a way that other things can't. So, yeah, can't wait to play with his mom, honestly.

I can't wait. I can't wait for you to tell me about that. I will. I can imagine it just being this really special moment. I think it's so human that there's so many things we go through that We're not ready to process something yet. Then we feel guilty that we weren't ready when we almost feel we needed to be. We needed to be, yeah. But then you realize that actually when you were ready to process it, something more beautiful came from it for everyone. I think I spoke to him about him, but one of my monk friends passed away from cancer. My closest friend during my time in the monastery passed away a couple of years back. He was maybe a year older than me, had colon cancer. I I couldn't go back to see him because it was the pandemic when it happened. I couldn't fly back. I couldn't be by his side. I couldn't be there with him. In the last few weeks to months of his experience of it, he wasn't even in a place to do phone calls. I spoke to him three days before he passed away on the phone, and he was crouched over because he was in so much pain physically, and so I couldn't even look at him.

And yeah, I always carried that as I wasn't there by his side. I should have been, I could have been. And it's been something that when I was listening to it and I heard that, that's what I was thinking about. It's strange because you bury it until you're ready to look at it. Sometimes you don't even know if you're ready to look at it yet, what part of it. I agree with you. I think music is the only thing that can- Get in there.get into that complexity of it.

Yeah, it's the grieving is just a complex thing, probably It lasts a lifetime.

It's beautiful that it came to you in that moment and that you were able to... Yeah.

I'm glad you related to it, man.

Yeah, no. I relate to it in so many ways. I think grief also we talk about, obviously, this is talking about the loss of a friend and mine too. But I think grieving is also like... I was at my sister's wedding last year, and my sister's one of my favorite people on the planet, my best friend. She knows everything about me. She's four and a half years younger than me.

We have similar sister vibes. Yeah, same with mine.

Yeah, she's just like... I love her to bits, and she's like my little brother, actually. Unfortunately, she's been treated by me. But I was at our wedding last year, and I left the UK. I left London eight years ago now. We've kept in touch and we've kept our relationship. We're as tight as ever, so it hasn't been effective. But it was really funny because I was at her wedding and I was just sobbing the whole time. I have to show you a picture. Can I show it to you? Please. I wasn't even planning on doing this, but now that I remember, I think I just showed it to my team the other day because my sister was just with me and she-I don't even want it. I don't even have it on hand.

Photos of me crying at my sister's wedding. I have to show you.

It was just... Wait, sorry, I wasn't prepared for this. That's why it's genuinely the moment I'm trying to make sure that I have it.

Oh, man, it's so good.

Then zoom zoom out to see Radhi's reaction.

Oh, man, it's really good. I've never seen your face look like that. Oh, man, that is so good. That is an unreal photo. There's so much happening on your face. There's a whole story on your face. Did you zoom out? Yeah, I saw Radhi. Radhi's like taking a picture. Smiling, gorgeous, so happy.

Rathy is like taking a picture. And then I made her cry, and that was her. Oh, yeah, good. But What I'm getting to is this idea of I was at my sister's wedding thinking it was going to be completely normal. And it wasn't because I started to realize that when I left London, I had to switch off. Even though I was connected with her and I loved her and we talked all the time, there was a part of my emotional connection to my family that I had to turn off because if I thought about it every day in New York and then LA- You couldn't do it. I couldn't do it because I didn't have family and friends in New York and LA, and I didn't know how my life was going to go, and I didn't know what I was going to do. I was like, If I stay too connected emotionally, I'm going to have to run back. Then I remember, I went back to my house, my parents' home, where me and my sister grew up, and it was the first time she wasn't there. Last Christmas, I felt like I was-Alone.fully alone.

It was so strange because I was like, What is going on? It was all these feelings I'd denied or put away or hidden from myself because it was too uncomfortable to go there. And they all just came up with my sister leaving and getting married and all the rest of it. And so I think grieving also is also the loss of a former life, the loss of a former self. There's so much to it that I think you bring up in that song that at least you got me thinking about.

Yeah. Grief is a really, really complex, interesting thing. But yeah, that's beautiful, man. I love that photo so much.I'll.

Send it to you.You please do.I'll send I wanted to talk to you afterwards.

That's so good.

I wanted to talk to you a bit about, and I hope you don't mind, we're doing an album tour because I think it's the... To me, I always get happy when I can... Your music is so healing for me, and I know it's going to be so healing for people. Actually, talk to me about that because you had 15 fans in here last night, and that was the first time you played this album to them. I wasn't here for that. So I want to hear about what was that like.

It was really special. It was It was my first time really telling the story of all the songs. It was just a sobbing fest. Everyone was sobbing and everyone was crying. It's just another reminder that greatness is not one person. It really is just so many things happening and aligning to make something special. It's like the end of the night, when I look around, I'm like, Oh, the The candles are lit and all the people in the room, the fans in there, the friends who've come, our friends who are amazing chefs who've come and made this amazing meal for them. And there's flowers around. I didn't do any of this. And my band, There are all these humans who are so amazing, who come together to make something special happen. When you make room for that and give space for that collective effort to be felt, it was just like... And on top of that, just the album itself, we put so much effort into just the stories and the truth of it that I felt like my job was so easy. All I had to do was represent the song. All I had to do was speak the truth of what we wrote about and perform it that way and move on.

There was the greatest show ever was already wrote before we started, and I just had to step into it. I think that's such I think that's such a representation also just of for me as a performer, I have had a really hard time when, A, I am carrying the weight of everything on my shoulders, when I'm the When I'm telling myself, this being fantastic all comes down to me. If I'm not fantastic, it all doesn't matter, which is not true at all. The more I take that weight off of me, the more fantastic it becomes. B, when the art I've chosen to create comes from such a truthful place, the show you play is so much easier. It just supports you. It feels like you just have the lift of the truth. You can't rush that stuff at the end of the day. You cannot rush art and music, and you have to really allow it. The fans last night, they were like, Hey, at the end of the show, they were like, Hey, if this is the type of music you come back with, take as much time as you need. And so it was so sweet.

That's beautiful. It was so special for me.

Get emotional with me, Radhi Deblukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry. We're going to talk about and go through all the things that are sometimes difficult to process alone. We're going to go over how to regulate your emotions, diving deep into holistic personal development, and just building your mindset to have a happier, healthier life. We're going to be talking with some of my best friends.

I didn't know we were going to go there on this.

People that I admire. When we say, Listen to your body, really tune in to what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life.

Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right?

Basically, I have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we call life. I already believe in myself. I already see myself. And so when people give me an opportunity, I'm just like, Oh, great. You see me, too. We'll laugh together, we'll cry together, and find a way through all of our emotions. Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as make it a really good one. Listen to a really good cry with Radhi DiVlucia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Overcomfort podcast with Jennika Lopez. Yup, that's me. You may know my late I'm Jenny Rivera, my queen. She's been my guiding light as I bring you a new season of Overcomfort podcast. This season, I'll continue to discover and encourage you and me to get out of our comfort zones and choose our calling. Join me as I dive into conversations that will inspire you, challenge you, and bring you healing. We're on this journey together. I'm opening up about my life and telling my story in my own words. Yes, you'll hear it from me first before the achievement lands on your social media feed.

If you thought you knew everything, guess again. So I took another test with Ancestry, and it told me a lot about who I am, and it led me to my biological father. And everyone here, my friends laugh, but I'm Puerto Rican. Listen to the Overcomeer podcast with Jennifer Lopez as part of My Culturan podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

I'm Eva Longoria.

I'm Maite Gomez-Rejón. We're so excited to introduce you to our new podcast, Hungary for History. On every episode, we're exploring some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, beverages from our Mexican culture. We'll share personal memories and family stories, decode culinary customs, and and provide a recipe or two for you to try at home. Corner flour. Both. Oh, you can't decide. I can't decide. I love both. Ina, I'm a flour tortilla girl. You're team flour. I'm team flour. I need a shirt. Team flour, team core. Join us as we explore surprising and lesser known corners of Latinx culinary history and traditions. I mean, these are these legends, right? Apparently this guy, Juan Mendez, he was making these tacos wrapped in these huge tortillas to keep it warm, and he was transporting them in a burro, hence the name The Burritos. Listen to Hungary for History with Eva Longoria and Maite Gómez-Rejón as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah, I feel like when I'm listening to this album, it feels like I'm listening to a friend talk to me about what they've been going through. They were catching up on a call. Good. I'm listening to a friend just hearing about what's going on in their life and how they're thinking about it. Good. That's perfect then. I feel like it's so beautiful and it's obviously so hard to do because you're doing it at... Everyone's feeling that way, and so that's not easy. Continuing our tour of the album, you talk about love and relationships, and romantic relationship, which is such a big part of your own journey, and we've talked about this. How much, yeah. It's such a sensitive part of our hearts. It's almost like society has also made it more sensitive, on such a pedestal, as I often talk about recently. I was just saying this to someone the other day who's going through something, and I was saying that they've always overvalued and over weighted romantic love instead of the general love. Instead of just general love. In your song, In Between, you say, If I'm not all in, then I'm all out, and it's never going to happen if it doesn't happen right now.

If it doesn't end with a ring, is it just sex? If it isn't black and white, then it's on to the next. I can't think of how many people can relate to that experience and how many people, when they hear that, are going to think, That's my life. That's me. Walk me through what you're experiencing, what you're going through when you're writing that.

For me, I'm definitely one of those people who has over put way too much weight on the romantic part of love. Doing that has done many things. It's suffocated love. It has closed the door to any other love that I could be receiving. I guess there comes a point where... There came a point over the last couple of years where I was just like, I realized life is hard. This thing is too long and too hard to not just be open to the love that's in front of you asking to be received right now. That was what I was writing about there is, isn't it enough just to have someone share a moment with you of love? It's hard at first because it's really vulnerable to allow that because all the things come in is like, Is this romantic? Is this this? Is this going to be forever? What does this mean? Is this weird because you're with someone and we're having a beautiful connection. What does that mean? Is this bad? Is this wrong? And all of that can exist at the same time, and it's okay. And when you start making more space for all that complexity to exist, you start to realize, wow, there's a lot of opportunity for me to feel love every day.

And I have noticed that my fixation on romantic love has dwindled, and I've just been so much more I guess, generally feeling that empty space of love fill up. And that's just because I think I'm more willing to receive it from more places. And it's tough, too, because we have been watching Disney since we were kids. And so we're like, Where is my forever? And even in the song, I have another song in there where I'm like, you're the one and I live for this moment. It's like that tickles a part of us, and we love to hear that. To the end of life, I'll be a hopeless romantic like that. Me too. Yeah, but part of me also has to just know that love can just... It can really be there. You can experience it. If you just wait your whole life for one person to give it to you, you might be let down. Also, that person might be so impossible for them to feel that for you. So, yeah, I'm open to love. That's what I'm saying.

What's it been like for you having your romantic life be so public? And then when you break up, it's public. And then if there's a potential reconnection, it's public. I feel like that is... I mean, for anyone I've ever interviewed, for anyone I've ever known, that that seems to be one of the hardest things because it's brutal for both people, fans, audiences, people in people's private life. Walk me through what that's been like and maybe where certain songs felt connected to that experience.

Brutal. Honestly, I think Camille and I have just done the best job at preserving our private little fire of love for each other. Because no matter how strong mentally you are, when there are millions of people commenting on it, it's so hard not to be affected by it and to be swayed by it and to be inspired by it and to desire it because people desire it or to hate it because people hate it. And it's just human. And I feel like her and I have just worked extremely hard to just protect each other and protect that love. And I learned a lot about that. And it's part of it. It's definitely part of it. And there's no getting away from that. But if I'm being completely honest, I don't really go on social media anymore. So I don't really see or care what people say about my love life or my relationships, because it's honestly too detrimental to the actual relationship itself that I've become pretty strict on that part of it. But it's crazy, We're not in a movie. This is not a movie. Celebrities are, sometimes maybe they think they are, and sometimes they literally are.

But it isn't a movie. This is real life. This is real love. And love is confusing and hard and goes through dips and goes through pauses, goes through breaks, goes through so much. I really feel for everyone who goes through that. I just feel like as a celebrity, I just want to just come at it and be really truthful from the place of this is what love is like for me.

What have you both done? And maybe obviously speaking for yourself, but what have you done to protect the relationship apart from distancing yourself from the noise? What else has been useful in protecting whatever a relationship may be in any phase?

For me and for us, I think immense honesty, just like overcommunication. I felt this way when I was doing this interview and I said this thing and I felt weird, and I'm sorry if it came off like that. I love you, and it just immediately cuts through any type of assumption that I could make or she could make from anything. We're both amazing at that. I'll be the first to text her. She'll be the first to text me. As long as we're good, all the noise is just noise. That's been a That's a huge part of it.

Yeah. Rather than be like, Oh, I hope they don't see that. I hope they don't see that. It's like, Oh, I'm just going to tell them why I was feeling that way. Yeah. Then how do you open yourself up to receive that honesty when it isn't comfortable, let's say?

I think it's also just a part of just understanding the situation we're in, not only as as celebrities, but artists. Being two people that make music and tell the story of of the heart, and that's just a big part of it. And we both are very aware of that. So just having respect for the fact that we're storytellers.

Wow. And that takes a lot, though. Yeah. That takes a lot of maturity.

Yeah, for sure.

That's a really mature perspective to have.

Yeah. And we've been doing it since we're very young. So I think at this point, we hopefully just have a deep, great respect. So I don't think either of us would ever cross a line. We deeply respect each other.

That takes a lot, man. It's so hard to... As I've always said to you, you're an old soul because I'm like, I know people twice your age, maybe even. A bit more than that who struggle with that? It's so hard to actually have that perspective and understanding and respect for someone's personal professional orbit.

It is.

It's hard when it's two people, too. It's easy for one person to do.

I'm just lucky. She's an amazing human being, and she's incredibly understanding and thoughtful and caring. So communicating with her is not difficult. And I think that's just probably a huge part of it.

Yeah. Why does it feel sometimes that you can have two people who respect each other so much, connect so much, have so much admiration and love for each other, but that it's not right romantically? Why is that? Because you have this beautiful It's a story that nobody knows that says, When you're so in love and your soul's touch, but it's still not in love, where does it go? I feel like that's something a lot of people have been- Struggle with. Yeah.

That's a great question. It is a great question. I don't have the the greatest answer for. I think that's exactly why I asked, Where does it go? Where does that love go when it's so present? I think the best answer I can come up with is just that love Love is a lot, but partnership is more than love. I think it has a lot to do with how you support each other in your day-to-day life and really being honest about who you are and making sure that someone that you're with is in support of that and doesn't have to bend themselves entirely to be in support of that and vice versa. I think it's tough because you can go your whole life and never feel that feeling of deep love again. I think it's just really complex. It's been something I think people have been trying to figure out for a long time. I just think potentially, we've talked about love a lot. I think potentially we're still all wrapping our heads around love, and we're still working through such westernized movie, romanticized, dramatized versions of it. If you go to places that have been less exposed to that type of thinking, then maybe love is a little simpler or a little more, I don't know.

For me, I just like, hopefully there's a little bit of both. Hopefully you can have that spark and that magic and that love. And you can also have that compatibility where your two lives are working in flow with each other. Obviously, you're going to have to bend here and there, but I think to a degree.

I don't I ask you or anyone because I think someone has the perfect answer. I know I don't. I ask because I think when people are navigating something, that's when they have the most reflective, variegated view of it. Because when you're actually going through it, people can hear themselves in you, in your voice. And that's what the song does. It's like people are listening to it going, Gosh, am I the right person at the wrong time? Or is it the wrong person at the right time? Or is it just It's a constant question.

It's a constant question to be like... I mean, that's also part of it is like not... It's okay to be unsure, even if you're unsure for the rest of your life, that might be part of it. That's that.

The art of what you're talking about in the album, what we've talked about, what you're speaking about, is just this like, how do we get comfortable with discomfort? How do we get okay with uncertainty? Whether that's But that is the hardest thing. Like you said, it's not something that you ever get to. It's something you're constantly practicing, constantly working on. I feel like romantic love is the one that exposes everything because there's love, there's envy, there's comparison, there's competition. There's so many emotions that it triggers out in you. What have you done to manage your discomfort and uncertainty when it comes to- To love or just generally? I'd say both. Both, yeah, both.

I think it's a lot of therapy, honestly. I think for me, it's just... I think everyone's different. For me, it's really helpful to just speak as practical as I can about each situation. Please, yeah. This is what's happening, and this is what's not happening, and this is what's going on, and I'm feeling confused, and all of this is just happening, and that's okay. I think, to be honest, it's like, I'm currently not in a relationship, so I'm sure I can't wait to be back in the love spins, all the emotions getting triggered and all this stuff, because being in a relationship is really hard. I think sometimes it's easier from the place of being single to be in a place of, Hey, find the balance. But once you're in a relationship, it's much harder. It's, Well, once you have something to lose, it's much harder to not have a tight grip on it. And so we'll see when I'm back in that state.

No, I love what you're saying because I've always said, and maybe I've never even said this out loud, but I always reflect on if for whatever reason, and not that this is indicative of anything that's happening, but if for whatever reason, me and Radhi were to ever go our separate ways, it's interesting. I think a lot of people would say, Oh, but you told us you loved each other. And you told us you had the perfect relationship, in which I have not. And I don't have a perfect relationship. I've never claimed to have one. But the viewpoint becomes But you guys, Jay, you wrote a book on love. How could you break up with someone? And I'm like, no, no, no. That's life. That's reality. And I think we have this view. Again, clarifying, there's nothing going on. Yeah, of course. I'm just saying it for an example because I think it's so important to address these things because I think we have these very fixed viewpoints of what something should be and what something should look like.

And I think it goes back to just, I don't know, maybe Maybe this sounds too idealistic or optimistic, but I think it goes back to just finding what you actually, figuring out what it is you actually want in life. For me, it's like, do I want to be in a constant state of I have someone, I have this fiery thing that always is mine? It's more of that ownership, that desire, which is super enticing and gorgeous in itself. Or what is it that I actually want? Or do I want to feel just a general more love from more places And do I want to feel supported and I'm growing and I'm being seen? And if you really ask yourself that question, and then you find an answer, you might not. But if you find an then you can start moving forward with what your answer was. And for me, it was really more of just like, I really do want to just have a greater... I don't want all my eggs to be in one basket because I don't know how life can go. Things happen. People die, people get sick, people fall out. I would love nothing more than to meet my wife as I walk out of the store today.

But at the same time, too, I just want to... Until that moment, I'd love to be experiencing love also. I don't want to just wait till then.

There's some fans outside waiting now ready to go.

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You know what? That's what I've always admired about you, and I'm hearing it today. I hear it in the album. You've just always focused on asking good questions. And that's your life. That's who you are. And I think that it's so funny because as humans, we get so fixated on the answers. We get so fixated on just a few answers. So we ask the same questions. Like, will I ever find my person? Is this the right person? We ask the same questions, and we don't ever get any better answers to the same questions.

Yeah, there's no answer to those questions.

There's no answer to those questions. And what I've seen in you is you're always trying to ask this wide array of questions. Where will it go? Because the normal question to that will be like, so when you're so in love and your soul's touch, but it's still not in love, where does it go? Most Most people would go, well, is that love or not? Yeah.

Does that mean it was love? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But that's not- I don't question that. There's zero doubt in my mind that love is love. It's like, where does all that love go to? And I think that question itself is like, oh, that love is still completely here and able to funnel into the same person if they're willing to receive it in a different light or funnel into anyone else around you that you love. But it's also like, damn, that absolutely sucks. That is just a... It just sucks. I also might have said, doesn't that suck?

You didn't, dad.

I didn't know, but that's something I would have read.

Because it does. Yeah, exactly. It's the truth. It goes back to your point of the truth. But no, I really want to encourage people to I'm going into my world a bit here, but everyone who's listening and watching, I really hope this album helps you ask different questions. Because I feel like that's a real strength you have. I've learned through being in your company that you don't really ask the same questions that we all ask. I think that's what's led you on this beautiful journey and beautiful path and been able to look at the same things we all go through, but in a different lens is because it's your ability to always zoom out and ask a question that isn't the The E. S. One.

Oh, wow. Thank you.

It's really powerful. I love that. It's through music. Sorry, I went into a bit self-development, personal growth.

Hey, man, I'm right there. They all know that.

Yeah, for sure. There's a couple more lyrics here that I love because they're just so powerful in the love and relationship space that I have to bring them out. Yeah, this one. But what about the in between? You lay your head on me, living for the next time that we touch, isn't that enough? Talk me through that.

I think similarly to what we were just saying is if you're always focused on the highs, you might be waiting a while to receive something special. You have all these beautiful in between moments. Even for me, allowing myself to love the moment before the show and after the show and the morning and all of that It does a lot of things. It actually takes pressure off of the show to have to be such a big deal. Then it also just helps me enjoy the day, generally, much more. If I sit there all day being like, There's one important thing today, and that's the show. That's basically an hour and a half, two hours of my day. What about the rest of it? I want to enjoy the in between too, because they are beautiful.

Yeah, because otherwise, our life's just bookends.

They're Our life, we look back, it's just the highs and lows. Yeah.

I find it's also then your life becomes a waiting for the high.

What the next day is.

Yeah. So you're living in constant anticipation. Constant anticipation. Or constant anxiety for something to end. Yes. And that's the only in between you have. Absolutely. It's still linked to a beginning and an end. I'm in anticipation of, when will that good thing come? And then I'm in anxiety of, When will this good thing Yeah. One last one which you go so vulnerable on, you say, where is it? Visions of her naked in my head, but I went off and chose myself instead.

Yeah. I mean, there is a voice, maybe you can call it a voice or a feeling, I think, inside of us that says sometimes This is what you got to do. You got to do something hard here. Our very human side will do everything in its power to get you not to do that. And it will just show you images and movies and the best plot you've ever seen in your life of the thing. And it can really confuse you and just be like, what have I done? I think a really common thing, actually, I've noticed is a lot of people who have I've recently been in a breakup, would tell me, Oh, I've been having dreams of them every single night for three months. I thought that was just me. I thought I was the only one, and I thought it meant something. I think that it's really common, just for our... It's part of the process of something. And at the end of the day, I think all we can do is try to make the best decision that we is best for ourselves and accept that because at the end of my life, God's not going to appear and be like, Hey, all these things you did, those were the right decisions, and all these ones were the wrong ones.

That's not going to happen. I'm never going to get that. I'm never going to get that. I'm just trying to understand that, yeah, I think it's just expressing that side of just making mental torment when you're going through healing. That's just like it wants to keep you somewhere. A big question I ask myself is, when I am struggling to move past something, I ask myself, What is it that holding on to this thing or this person or this way? What is that protecting me from? What is that way of being protecting me from? So many times it comes back to such a similar thing. In relationships, it's oftentimes just this feeling of comfort, this feeling of, I don't want to be alone. The beautiful thing is that if you can move through those feelings on the other end, might be a grand a gender sense of comfort from within yourself, but also a greater diversified comfort from many people. And that creates a more consistent sense of home and comfort. And it's just interesting how it all works.

What about It's a torment of people who would say, Well, why can't you and Camilla just make it work and just be together and just like, Come on, you love each other so much, or the other side where people would say, Well, if it's not working, just let it be. Just throw it away. Just forget about it. And you're happy to live in the torment of, I'm happy to be in the in between.

I think the reality is no one will ever know what it's like to be in our bodies and to feel what we feel and to know where we know we're going. Because oftentimes where we we're going is not something we can express through words to other people. It's just a sense, a sense of where I'm headed, and no one's ever going to understand that. So that stuff is just noise in the wind for me. It feels like we're talking something so surface here about something so immensely deep and complex that it's not even worth my time to go into the answer to those questions because there's not even an answer to those questions. It's not a sense of, I think, choosing to live in torment. I think it's exactly like listening to yourself and trusting that. I had a friend who was going through a hard decision, and they asked me, I said, You just got to follow your intuition. I'm like, What does that feel like? I'm like, Well, I can't necessarily... I don't know, a little thing in your stomach or your heart. I'm like, I actually don't know. But this is clearly exactly the moment that you are about to learn what it feels like.

If you can't find that sense of intuition, then at that point, I don't know what guides us. Also, if you're not sure, you might not be ready to make the decision yet. There's a pressure to make decisions all the time. I understand you don't want to waste people's time. I understand you don't want to do the wrong thing prematurely, but some things just need to play themselves out. I think that's just a reality, too. So allow yourself to get to that place, but don't let yourself go over that place, please.

I'm going to say this to you because I don't think I've said this to you before, but it's an interesting reflection I'm having right now. I actually feel with you, we get a sense of your old soul when I ask you a superficial question. I haven't tried to ask any profound questions today because that's not my goal. But There's a beautiful simplicity of you that comes out because you would never answer a basic simple question in a basic simple way. And that's what I think actually demonstrates where your consciousness is in a beautiful way. And so it's just a thought I'm having right now. I'm like, I'm never going to ask you a profound question ever again in my life because that's not it for you. For you, your essence comes out when you're having a conversation that people would think is really normal. Yeah. But you just don't look at it that way. Yeah.

Does that make sense? Totally. I almost can't compute. It's like the thing happens in my head where I can't compute surface. I'm like, it's not computing. We got to get under it.

That's how we get to see that you're not computing. That's cool. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. I only realized it while having this conversation. I was like, oh, yeah. But yeah, I wanted to show you something because I sent it. You'll probably guess who it's from, which I thought was really beautiful.

Oh, yeah. That's beautiful, man. Is Tony crying. What was he crying about? Probably a lot of things. He's going through a lot of beautiful things in his life right now, too. But these are my people. I talk about an album is not just about making music if you let it. It can also be about completely changing your life and the relationship to the people you've made the album with. What this has done for me and these guys, it's just like they became friendships to lifelong friendships.

What does it feel like being in this room 10 years since That to me feels like such an incredible journey that we're getting to be a part of here, to sit in here 10 years older. You were what? You were 16?

Yeah.

Going on, 16. Yeah.

I remember singing Treat You Better in Here.

I love that song.

I remember just so much inner torment and so much breakthrough. This is a place of breakthrough for me. This is always where I found the wall and I've broken through it. It's just a magical little place, dude. It's like my version of Hogwarts here. It really is. This time around, what I've been really trying to do is everything to be really have a lot of intention of just like, we're here right now and we're upstate. I'm going to play a show in a few days where I made the album. It's like, you have to work so much harder to curate an experience when you just allow the story, you just let the story happen and support that. It just feels like, yeah, I needed a lot of holding. Even just through this week, the first little show I did yesterday, I needed to be in this room. This room knows how to hold me. Yeah, man, it's cool. I just love it here. I'll be here for many more years.

Yeah. I feel like everyone can find a similar place like this for themselves. It may not be a place where they record music, but a place that they can turn to and come to and be held by and be embraced by and feel rooted and feel nourished. I hope this acts as a symbol to encourage people to look for that. It could just be a little tree somewhere on a hike. It could just... What's your take on that?

Yeah, look for it or be open to the fact that you might be in it and you might know it very well. Having a space that holds the intention of the place you go to lay it all out, really lay it all out and break through and struggle. Not all studios feel like this. It's also a beautiful town we're in, too. This town is special. Being in nature, that's just like in the winter, it gets really different here, too. It's a whole story.

Yeah, we've had rain and thunder in this interview. You've had rain and thunder every day. In this interview already, it's beautiful. You've been looking I've been looking at it behind you. It was raining. Sean, you talked about your sister and I talked about mine. Elia actually sent us a note.

No way. My sister? Yes. Oh, no. I'm going to cry already. Is it okay if I read it to you?

Sure. Prash hooked it up.

Prash hooked this up? Oh, no.

You ready?

Sure.

She says, Dear Shawn, I want to start by saying a huge thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for opening up your heart, being brave, and sharing your incredible gifts with all of us. Thank you for being not just a beautiful human, but also the most amazing friend, brother, son, mentor, and artist. I'm truly at a loss for words to describe how proud I am of you, how proud we all are. Your music today feels like the most genuine and authentic art you've ever created. It's filled with vulnerability, fear, diversity, patience, humility, pain, and a sense of home. But above all, it feels unapologetically and beautifully you. Watching you grow over the years has been such a privilege. I feel extremely lucky to be by your side as your little sister and to be a part of this incredible process with you. You've taught me so much about connecting with my own heart and body, tapping into embracing my truths, and living with more love, perspective, and abundance. I absolutely adore your eagerness to learn and the way you listen so thoughtfully.

Eagerness is a kind word.

I'll be honest, I really enjoy watching your unique YouTube videos with you. Honestly, you're like a real-life freaking cool superhero to me. Thank you for having the courage to be imperfect and for sharing that with the world. Your compassion and kindness, both towards yourself and others, are real superpowers. We all feel the depth of your connection through your authenticity. It shines in everything you do, and it's especially powerful in Sean, the album, Lol. This connection you create through your music has helped me feel more grounded in in my own life, and I know it will resonate with others in just as meaningful a way. It's like nine hearts with love so deeply, Alia.

Oh, man, that's so beautiful. Thank you. That means a lot. I love you, Lena. Oh, man. Yeah. She's my best friend. Over the last six months, we've just gotten so close. My little big sister, too. I think when you start letting your little sister be your big sister sometimes. It's such a beautiful experience when you see your pain turn into something beautiful. Then people people start to feel that way. And you got to believe people when they tell you, especially in people in my life. She would not say that if she didn't mean it, even for you. I'm in awe of it all and grateful for it all because although I was there every day doing it, there really was a greater thing at play. It's been the most healing thing I've ever done. I really hope people feel that way, to be honest.

I wanted you to hear it from her because I feel like we all need to hear it. We all need to hear it. I can imagine that when you finish an album, it's actually the beginning of then sharing it with the world. And so my hope today internally was like, I want you to feel so much love and so much support and so much embrace so that as you go out and- I thought of it almost like this.

At the beginning, it's this little spark that's so tender. And you have the people you really trust, and you show them little clips of it, little voice memos, and they put their little twigs on it, and that flame starts to grow. And then you start showing other people, and they put a log. And I almost imagine my team and my friends and my family each placing logs on this fire. And now we just have this massive bonfire going. If there was a hurricane, it wouldn't blow it out. It's just like, All right, now we're good. Give it to the world. It can handle anything. And that's really what it feels. It feels so much greater than anything I could be a part of. But thank you. That's really so sweet, man.

I love you, man. I always have. It's really special for me as well because I feel like I've said this to you, and I want to say it out loud. It's the... You had every reason when I met you to just keep doing what would have been the right business decision, the right professional decision, the right artist decision from a result standpoint. And I think your bravery and courage at your age and the maturity to step back and actually say, I'm going to go on a deep inward journey. I don't even want to use the words find yourself because that would mean that you've completed it and now you're sharing it. Sure. Just go on a journey of self-discovery and adventure. Then to come back to this when you feel you're ready to share wherever you currently are, it would have been so much easier to just not think about these things in the short term.

In the short term.

And as I've said to you before, I've seen people do that for three or four decades and then finally figure it out. And the fact that you chose to do it so young is an immense credit to your incredible family, your friends, to you, your team, and everyone around you because you made the hardest, most difficult decision in your position. I'm so happy to just see the fruits of it. Me too, man. Because I still remember so many conversations of- Infinite.

All the little seeds that we planted of attention and love and hope and everything. It's all just everything's blooming. We're standing in the farm of just everything at the same... It's almost overwhelming the amount that starts to happen in the harvest. And it's just this season.

And I'm so humbled that you allowed me to not only walk parts of that journey, little parts of that journey with you, but have this opportunity today, too, because it's rare that you get to live in these cycles with people, especially when we're so busy. And so I'm so grateful that this is the first of our, hopefully, forever cycles.

Yes, sir.

I'm with you all the way. I love you. I'm rooting for you.

Thank you, Jay.

I got your back through it all. Thank you, man.

I know you Yeah, I really appreciate you, man. You too, man.

We end every on purpose with a final five, which are a fast five. You have to answer each question in one word to one sentence.

Let's give it a shot. Let's try this. They're not superficially.

Don't worry. I'm not like, What's your favorite food?

You start getting long-winded questions.

Question number one. Sean, these are your fast five. Question number one, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? Wow.

Nothing's coming to mind.

That's good. I like that already.

It all sums up in an energy, I guess, more that's just like any time someone says something that just allows there to be more space.

Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard?

To suck it up.

Question number three, how would you define your current purpose?

I would define my current purpose with just being committed to be the most honest version of myself in every moment. I have a lot of trust in what that will do in this world. I think I've learned so much, even just to be here, I've learned so much about following my truth into the dark and feeling like I'm letting people down, but how that led me into creating a really beautiful healing album, and hopefully how that will pick people up, and it's all part of it.

Question four is, what's the message to the fans with this album, Sean?

Bring your tissues. I love you guys, and I am beyond grateful for your patience and your love. It's a beautiful thing to be growing up at the same time as you. I hope a lot of the words and the stories resonate with you. I hope you feel me because I feel like we've been out of connection for a long time. I just always want to be honest with you guys no matter what. I hope you love it.

A little offsure of that. Why was now the right time to come back for you?

There was a moment six months ago when Andrew and a couple of people I love, they were like, Hey, can we just play you back some ideas you've sent us that we think are cool? And I was like, They're probably not. And they brought me into the room and they played them back. And I was like, These are cool. And it was just very obvious to me that I got to go try. I think oftentimes people wait for inspiration to fall into their lap before they try. And then sometimes you got to go in there and chop wood and carry water for a few days before inspiration strikes. Three days of like, Why am I here? I should not be here. I'm not ready to be here. The fourth day, inspiration strikes. Six months later, you forgot you ever were chopping wood and carrying water. You were just enjoying yourself and making art. It just changed. It's the right time, I guess, just because it is.

Did you really want to leave in those first three days?

Desperately, yeah. It's funny how quickly I forgot I wanted to leave and how quickly it just turned into passion and inspired to make something beautiful again. Almost like a night and day difference. That's how inspiration works sometimes.

Feel the fear and do it anyway. Exactly. You're not going to wait for it to be free of fear and then take the step.

No, the fear is the greatest thing because you're scared of something, and that something is probably something worth writing about if you're a writer.

Fifth and final question we ask this to anyone who's ever been on the show. The question is, if you had to create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

The law would be to say what you really feel, but to say it in a way that doesn't really hurt people. But to speak the truth, speak your truth. You're going to get so much further, I think, with that. That'd be a horrible law, though.

And hilarious.

I'm going to get arrested if I don't say this, man, but that hair does not... Not your hair right now. Your hair looks great.

I love that. Yeah. Suan, thank you, my brother. I appreciate you. It's been beautiful. It's been a lot of fun. Yes, it has. It's been emotional. It's been deep and raw and vulnerable, just like the album. I can't wait to see you perform live. I'm so excited.

Thank you, babe.Thank you, man.Thank you, brother.

Thank you. If you love this episode, episode, you'll really enjoy my episode with Selena Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how to speak to yourself with more compassion.

My fears are only going to continue to show me what I'm capable of.

The more that I face my fears, the more that I feel I'm gaining strength, I'm gaining wisdom, and I just want to keep doing that. Hi, I'm Essie Cupp, and I've spent my career interviewing people about politics, presidential elections, and some really tough breaking news. But now I need a break, and I think you do, too. So on my new podcast, Off the Cup, I'll still be interviewing people, usually famous and most likely my friends, but about life, the stuff that consumes us when we're not consumed by politics. So come join me every Wednesday for some conversational self-care. Listen to Off the Cup on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Cross Generations, where the voices of Black women unite. I'm your host, Tiffany Cross. Tiffany Cross. Join me and be a part of sisterhood, friendship, wisdom, and laughter. We gather a seasoned elder, myself as the middle generation, and a vibrant young soul for engaging intergenerational conversations, prepared to engage or hear perspectives that literally no one else has had. Listen to a Cross Generations podcast on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

Hey, I'm Jack B. Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. Black Lit is for the page turners. For those who listen to audiobooks while running errands or at the end of a busy day, poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Listen to Black Lit on the Black Effect podcast network, iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.