Editor's Note: This transcript was automatically transcribed, so mistakes are inevitable. You can contribute by proofreading the transcript or highlighting the mistakes. Sign up to be amongst the first contributors.
This is NPR. Hello and welcome to Planet Money Summer School. You're eight week fast track to riches and power, or at least an understanding of how those things work. This is class number three. Profit and cocaine. I'm Robert Smith. Every Wednesday to Labor Day, we are tagging along with you to the beach, to the park to teach you the essential principles of econ one to one. Oh, and did we mention there's going to be a test?
Pass a few simple questions at the end of the course and we'll put your name on a Planet Money diploma, suitable for framing, not suitable to be used as an educational credential in class one.
We talked about how economists think about individual decisions, costs and benefits. Opportunity cost. Class two sorted out those decisions into a market complete with prices and supply and demand. And now here in Class three, we're gonna get down to the business of business. What makes a product sell? What are the risks and rewards of being an entrepreneur?
And how do you keep competitors out?
Economists often like to look at the extreme cases of something in order to see the principles at work underneath. And that's we're going to do in this class. The subject of today's lesson and story was one of the most notorious and successful crack dealers in Los Angeles in the 1980s and 1990s.
My name is Ricky Ross. I'm known on the streets as Freeway Rick, where when I sold drugs, if they had told me they was going to legalize it out of been mad because I knew that that was gonna drive the price down.
We should note, there's also a successful rapper and music executive named Rick Ross. He took that name as an O mosch to freeway Ricky Ross, but the two of them have no connection. Today on summer school, we take a look at the economics of drug dealing and do a reality check with an actual drug kingpin. And then at the end of the episode, we'll bring in our economists and residents, Betsey Stevenson and Justin Wolfers, who will show us how the lessons learned on the street can be used to think about how all businesses work.
This message comes from Western Governors University, W.G. You is a non-profit university committed to helping you reach your academic goals at an affordable price. They charge a flat rate tuition for every six month term, meaning the more courses you complete each term, the more affordable your degree becomes, offering online bachelor's and master's degrees in business, I.T., education and nursing. Learn more about their offerings at W.G. You got EDT. You slash Planet Money.
A Minneapolis business owners daughter is called out publicly for racist anti black tweets, fighting to save his business and trying to make amends. He calls on a prominent black Muslim leader for help. He's an Arab Muslim and his brother. I'm here to tell me what to do. To hear what happens next. Listen to Code Switch from NPR.
This episode, Lessons from a Drug Kingpin, first aired in 2011, and I hosted it with Alex Blumberg, who went on to be something of a kingpin himself in the world of podcasting. OK, let's do it.
We have in front of us a pile of academic papers talking about the economics of illegal drugs, and they all arrive at a surprising conclusion. The inclusion of this when you make drugs illegal, you end up making drug dealers richer and you increase the level of crime and you don't end up reducing drug use by that much.
Which, we should remind people, is the whole point of making drugs illegal to stop people from using drugs and to lower the amount of crime.
So here we have these policies that are not doing what they're supposed to be doing. And let's lay out the theory of why that is. OK. So the economics of this are when you make something illegal, you make it harder and riskier to produce. In the case of drugs, you have to sneak them across the border. You have to pay people more to transport them since they're facing jail time if to hire armed guards to, you know, protect your supply.
There's all of these added costs which simply drives up the price. So illegal cocaine is many more times expensive than it would be if it were legal.
And any economist can tell you what happens next when the price of something goes up. Surprise. Fewer people buy it. Take bananas. If they were 500 bucks a bunch, no one would buy bananas. But crack is different. The demand is what they call inelastic. No matter what it costs, people are willing to pay for it. I mean, it's addictive. So increasing the price just means that more money goes to drug dealers and to the criminal behavior.
They engage in bribing people, buying guns, threatening, hurting or even killing people. That is the theory. But one thing missing from these economic papers, actual drug dealers.
And this brings us to freeway Ricky Ross. He started dealing cocaine in 1979 and he moved into crack. Then he worked his way up to becoming one of the biggest crack dealers in L.A.. He was arrested in 1996 and given a life sentence. But in 2009, he was given parole and released.
And we thought, here is a perfect person to run these economic theories by and see if they check out.
Let's do it. Theory number one, making drugs illegal drives up the price check.
The most I ever made in one day was three million dollars went through my hands. Wow. I could make off of a million bucks. I can make anywhere from one thousand to two hundred thousand profit. It varied to who I was selling to and what time and money it was. You know, a lot of areas on how much I made if I was giving it to him on credit. Stuff like that. So what I was sure to make two hundred thousand off every million and sometimes I can make as much as 400000.
Let me just ask you, like, how. How much of the cost of the drug that you were selling was because it was illegal?
I guess probably we maybe a thousand times. You can probably get a kilo of cocaine over in Colombia, Peru for maybe three hundred dollars or maybe less than that. You know, if it wasn't illegal because maybe the farmers probably would sell it for. Would it possibly.
I had a lettuce because it grows over here, you know. Wow. So, I mean, the price probably would drop dramatically. You probably could get a kilo for what it costs about pack of cigarettes, maybe cheaper.
Keep in mind, Rick bought his kilos of cocaine for ten thousand dollars. All right. So next, we ran another part of the theory by him that at least some of the money he's getting is going to increased crime. Again, check.
Well, I had a crew, you know, I had a crew of anywhere from 30 to 40 guys that vary, too, from what was going on. You know, how how good business was, how many rock houses I was running at the time. You always had appearance of toughness in an idea. You know, I had guys around me that were ruthless and were tough. You know, if I gave a word, they would hurt you.
How how much how many guns did your operation have? Who knows?
We bought guns regularly because guys with those guns out the window, when the cops get behind them and we lose guns all the time and it was mandatory. When when when we owned a street, like if we had to park playing basketball, we had to be strapped. Or if we had my own tyre shop where we sold drugs from, then we would have guns.
Now, it's really amazing the level of expenses that a big time drug dealer has. I mean, the drug money wouldn't just be for his crew. He would spread it around. I mean, his drug money would find its way into all sorts of other illicit activities in the neighborhood. For instance, he had money that he'd just distribute to the big players around the hood.
You know, I had a fun also, you know, where I take care what's called a big homies. You know, these are the guys that when I grew up were shot callers, the guys that ran in neighborhood in in you know, I took him in my neighborhood. Anybody can get killed at any time. And for me to walk around the streets the way I did would be dangerous for a lot of people. Most people couldn't do what I did.
You know, they couldn't walk around South Central Los Angeles in the middle of Hoover Crip Gang. Are the swans in leered away, I live, you know, free and open, go into carwashes, you know, they kidnap drug dealers in South Central and I had a special type of pass that most people don't get. And that's because of my good ties that I shared in my wealth.
So you basically it was sort of like you're paying protection money to these people, right? Absolutely.
You can call it protection money or being owe me money or whatever, but it's all the same thing. Absolutely.
But it was it was money going to people who who didn't sell drugs but who who would be fiber's. Yeah, they were robbers. They was killers. Jackers, as we call them. Absolutely. These guys did mind going to jail.
So clearly, the academics are right here. Drug money goes to crime. I guess that's not a big surprise. But not all of the money goes to crime and bribes and shady stuff. For example, Freeway Rick Ross owned a lot of real estate, crack houses, cook houses, places. He stored his money.
There were other expenses, like a huge expense bail bondsman guys and his crew that he worked with would get picked up by the cops and he would need to make sure that they would stay loyal to him so he would do whatever it took to get them out of jail. And of course, the criminal justice system knew that he was a big time drug dealer. So they set these bond prices really, really high. So that cost them a lot of money.
Yeah. And another group of people who were profiting off of the big time drug dealer lawyers, he had lots of lawyers and they charged him a lot of money and they came into play when he would have these interesting disputes with the cops.
What happened is they had raided a couple places and there were large amounts of money and no drugs and they would confiscate the money. He knew we would go to court and the lawyers would get the money back. And that really frustrated him.
Wait. So they would they would read one of your houses. There'd be a whole bunch of money there, but there wouldn't be any drugs. Right. So we would go to the you would actually go go and say, I'm an honest businessman.
That was my money. They have no right to take my money. Absolutely.
I wouldn't go myself personally.
Have people in a system set up to where we could claim the money, you know, they fed in a house in Southcentral Central for two thousand dollars. Wouldn't that naturally wouldn't you naturally think that's drug money?
I mean, would you think that if he would be able to use. True enough. I mean, even if you think that you have to prove it.
You know, in court, it's not what you think is what you can prove.
Right. And they couldn't prove there was drug money. So you got to back. Absolutely. And they got frustrated with that. So what they started doing is they started when they come into the house, they will bring known drugs in and they would plant drugs. And it makes it tougher for you to come to court and say, you know, Jansma, I have four hundred thousand dollars and here it is, Miss. Because now it was two keys in you two.
So now you got to tell the judge you on and the is a mind with that money is.
I think that's a, you know, a hard, hard pit.
So we have least quasi legal expenses. I mean, the money is going to people who probably pay taxes on it, lawyers, a bail bondsman. But then there are the expenses that are sort of in between. You know, they're under the table. But on the face, there's nothing illegal about these expenses. You know, take all the cash that Ricky's making. Every business just deposits it in their account freeway. Rick couldn't do that.
Count three, four hundred thousand can be time consuming.
How did you get the money? Who did? Who did you get to count the money?
Well, in the end, because money became a chore. So I hired a couple of girls to know was their job to count money all day.
That's another cost of something being illegal. You have to hire people to count it. Whereas if you just take to a bank, you know.
Absolutely. And then you got to worry about if they steal it. Right, because it's underground.
So, yeah, you can't go and you can't file a claim against your your underground drug money counters if you think I was skimming.
So even though he's paying these women and they're not explicitly doing anything illegal, like just counting money isn't illegal, but there is also a social cost even here. In other words, these women, right, young, they're coming in. They're seeing this big time drug dealer. They think this is the way to make money going into drugs. And and that was, of course, also part of this, the social cost of what Rick was doing.
Aside from the fact that crack is incredibly addictive, it decimated Inner-City Communities, creating the idea that, like, this is the only way out. This is the only way to get rich. That's also a big part of like the social cost of drug dealing.
And we should say that as Rick is going through his internal dialogue about his his own costs, he did not bring up a lot about the fact that this did devastate cities and he was partially responsible for it. Right.
Although now he says on his Web site that he's just bad about that and he's trying to undo some of the damage that he caused.
Now, there are a couple of the academic theories, the economist theories, though, that did not check out when we ran them by freeway Rick. For example, there is this one theory you see cited a lot in the literature that one of the factors that drives up the cost of drugs to compensate people for the risk, the risk of going to jail, the risk of getting shot or killed. So, you know, it's just generally people who have dangerous jobs tend to make more money, miners, people who work on fishing boats in those fishing boats out in Alaska.
You need to pay them more since that what they're doing is so risky. And the theory is that the same thing would apply to people in the drug trade. But that theory, at least in Rick. Case did not check out. Well, you know, first of all, when when you come from where I were, where I was when I started selling drugs. You know, you feel hopeless. You don't think you're going to live past 24 years.
Oh, one. And she'll come out with stripes. But he wasn't any risks. I mean, everything that I had going on at the time was nothing.
You know, I was like a lump on a log. So the risk that most people would look at. I mean, you know, you could get killed. Go to prison was OK.
So you didn't really think you weren't thinking like I'm taking a lot of risk here after get compensated.
No. No, I didn't really. I didn't really. And I mean, the conversation was all already enormous and overwhelming. I couldn't believe that it paid so well.
You would have done it for a lot less as waiters. Oh, absolutely.
Talking to Rick, we realized that there is something here that economists don't take into account. There was this emotional component to the work that Rick was doing, at least to get to Rick's level. Drug dealing is it's complicated. It's multifaceted. It's engaging.
Yeah. Like, Rick was basically a CEO. He was a manager. He was a publicist. He was his own accountant. He was even the head chemist.
So let's just back up for a second here and look at this situation. Society was doing everything it possibly could to make Ricky Ross's life miserable. His product was illegal. His costs were enormous. As we've established, he was a hunted man, literally a hunted man.
He said there was a police task force in L.A. devoted entirely to putting him in prison.
But despite all the money in the effort that the most powerful nation on earth was spending to make Rick Ross give up his job. I loved it.
I feel like I was on top of the world. I felt I was powerful. I felt I'd came and had to answer to nobody. I mean, it was a dream. It was him. Every man's dream to to be free.
Did you miss it? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
I'd rather be doing that. And than anything else, almost everything else became almost like secondary to my work.
You know, it's funny you were talking about how how great it was for a while. And one of the words you used was, was the freedom of it. And yet when you describe this in detail, I'm not I'm not hearing a lot of freedom. You had this task force and people had to kill you and spotters and sneaking around in the middle of the night.
You have to be up at two, 30 every morning and you're moving houses back and forth. This didn't sound the sounds like a man who has very little freedom in his life. Well, you know what?
When you look at it from from from that angle, it is. But when you look at it from where I came from, did not feel like I had all the freedom in the world.
How much of it was just sort of like the actual job and how much of it was just the feeling of being good at something and running this enterprise?
Well. Do you love the feeling that you're good? So it didn't feel like it was a burden, you know, to to sneak around at night? I've been sneaking around at night since I was, you know, 17 years old, stealing cars, you know. So this it became is like when you sang. You sang.
It is not freedom. But from where I come from. This is a way of life. This is the way we live. It's nothing wrong. We live in like that.
Sneaking around in night, hiding, you know, we've been high. Not our life.
So, Robert, one question remains at the end of our journey here with the freeway. Rick, what does this all mean? I mean, are we saying we should be legalizing crack? I mean, if we really did want to make their freeway wrecks of the world go away, we would take away their earning potential, I guess, right? Yeah.
By legalizing drugs and dropping the price. And some of the economists we spoke to said, yeah, of course, making it illegal makes dealers richer.
It creates more violence and crime and doesn't do that much to drive down demand. So clearly legalizing other economists, they weren't so sure.
Peter Reuter has written a book about the illegal drug market. He's written many, many papers. He is a big expert in this field. And he says legalizing something like crack, there would definitely be tradeoffs.
Legalization would dramatically reduce crime. And obviously the drug market crime would disappear.
And many drug related crimes where it's best in the business, economic, compulsive crimes, those crimes committed in order to pay for expensive illegal drugs, that would go down a lot to what goes on the other side, making up the number here. Five million more persons addicted. That's a big number. How do we compare the bad outcomes in the two cases? A very large increase in addiction with a very large decrease in crime. You know, I take them both to be real.
But I don't know how that's a value judgment.
How do you. With which. Which is better and which is which is better. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And as for Rick, when it comes to the legalization, it's complicated for him. A lot of the reason Rick says he got into drugs in the first place was because he was illiterate. I mean, think about that. Everything we've just heard. He ran a multi-million dollar business empire without being able to read and write. He learned to read and write in prison.
And his basic take is a lot of academics would agree with him, by the way. You need to attack the demand side of this equation. Try and reduce the reasons people want to use and sell crack in the first place. So that would mean addressing the desperation that drives people to become addicted to drugs and to become dealers. And that is Rick's new job since getting out of prison. He now travels around and talks to youth groups and schools. Anybody will have him basically.
And he lays out the other side of this economic equation that you're in when you're a drug dealer, which is it's hard to retire as a drug dealer. You get shot or you get a prison. And once you go to prison, everything you've made, all the money you've made, it's gone.
A multi-million dollar business that you've spent years and years building, developing expertise in developing your connoisseurship for cocaine can all be gone in the second. After the break, we will bring in our summer school economists and we'll discuss what Ricky Ross Freeway Ricky Ross can teach any entrepreneur about how to run a business.
Support for this NPR podcast and the following message come from Stamps.com. These days, we need to be smart about how we do business. Stamps.com brings all the mailing and shipping services you need to keep your business running right to your computer. Print, postage and shipping labels on demand from your home or office and save five cents on every stamp. And up to 62 percent off shipping rates from both the USPS and U.P.S.. Go to Stamps.com today to start a four week trial.
Plus free postage and a digital scale with promo code. Planet Money. Don't miss the national conversation with me. Jen White. Every weekday on NPR's One A. News, views and insight for the relentlessly curious, a space for those willing to share what they know. And ready to hear the other side of the story. Subscribe to one A now and leave a preview. We are back with Planet Money, summer school class number three. Profit and cocaine and listening.
Along with us are certified famous economists Betsey Stevenson and Justin Wolfers from the University of Michigan.
Hi. Hey. So is Rick Ross. Is he in a good business? Like, is this the kind of situation that businesses dream about being in?
Rick Ross is a good economist and that he is selling a product. That has a characteristic economists call inelastic when it is inelastic demand for something people keep buying and even when the price rises, and so therefore the cops are boosting his bottom line.
We should make sure we we we clearly define our vocabulary words here, inelastic demand. When we talked about demand last week, we said that for most products, when the price goes up, people buy less of the products. But there are few products where there's not an easy substitute so that when the price goes up, people may buy a little less of it, but they will keep buying the product inelastic demand.
That's exactly right. The amount by which high prices scare people away is not very much. That's what inelastic means.
And if you can find something with inelastic demand, I mean, that's that is a very good business opportunity. That's the good news for Mr. Ross, which is he can bump up his price of a fair bit and he's not going to lose many customers. And there's a different addictive substance that you talk about in your textbook. Coffee. Coffee. Coffee. And so coffee. Some of us are, in fact, addicted. And there are some national chains that jacked the price up and charge four dollars for a ventilator.
And that is taking advantage of my inelastic demand for coffee.
But this was this is a big insight of Howard Schultz and Starbucks, because 20 years ago, coffee did feel like this substance with elastic demand, like it was cheap. You could get it anywhere. It was generally kind of bad coffee. Nobody seemed to care that much.
Right. But this comes to this idea of substitutability back then when all coffee tasted terrible. There wasn't much of a difference between two different cups of coffee. So why would you pay more for the coffee at one diner versus the coffee at another diner? Coffee was treated almost the way we think about gasoline at different stations. So if you have the price of gas is much higher at a station across the street, then why would you buy from them the gas between the two two stations?
It's going to fill your car the same now. Well, people used to think coffee, the two different cups of coffee, they're going to fuel my body the same. And the insight that Howard Schultz had was maybe there are actually some important product differences across coffee.
He's also creating caffeine addictions. The greater those caffeine addictions, the more inelastic people's demand and therefore the greater is his ability to raise prices. It's really important to Howard that you don't just want one coffee a day, that you need three and you need them no matter what the price at which, you know, if if we're going to tell business stories, it's also similar to Apple and the iPhone.
There are substitutes, but they've worked very hard to make you think if you are an Apple phone user, that that is a special object of which there is no substitute in which apparently you will spend hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars on Robert.
One of my kids smashed my iPhone yesterday and I just tried to buy an Android and Betsy is yelling at me that I can't possibly do it. And I think she is something of an apple addict. And I did try to point out that at the price of a thousand dollars for a phone, that perhaps her demand was a little too inelastic. And maybe I should try one of the lower priced alternatives.
You did just hit on a like actual debate in our household, but it's also something that is consciously.
It's absolutely the case.
It could make its product more useful if it had a message work with Android phones, but it would make an Android phone a closer substitute for an iPhone.
I did think with with Rick Ross because, like, he goes through this whole thing about, oh, you know, his his profit and the inelasticity and and how much money he makes and the cost of supplies and everything. And you listen to it, you're like, well, why wouldn't everyone be in this business? Like, this is a great, great business to be in.
You are aware we put drug dealers in prison and that's a pretty bad lifestyle choice. There's another important concept here, which is what economists call barriers to entry. You're right. It sounds like Rick Ross was earning a lot of money. And so, Robert, maybe you and I should go and start our own drug dealing business. But I bet if we went to Rick Russell's corner and started trying to compete against him, it's not that he'd try and compete with us by lowering the price.
He'd try and run us out of town using violence. So there were barriers to entering that market that keep competitors away, which is also the sign of a good business to be in.
Absolutely. And businesses repeatedly try to make it difficult for new companies to enter and compete against them.
And this actually explains a lot about how businesses, successful businesses work these days. I mean, companies may not use guns to defend themselves, but they use lawyers and regulations and lobbying to make sure that no one else is competing with them on the opposite corner. And in a lot of sectors, the economy like this is one of the main ways people compete. Absolutely.
They'd rather not compete in terms of prices. What they want to do is compete in terms of constructing higher and higher barriers to entry, making it more and more difficult for newcomers to come in.
So I'm thinking cable companies, car dealers, beer distributors.
So they're running off to the government.
No lobbying like hell, saying, look, what we're distributing is so dangerous you wouldn't want to let anyone else do it, but also doctors and hairdressers to do not try to compete with hairdressers.
My favorite is interior decorators in Florida. You have to get a license to become an interior decorator because a misplaced throw cushion could cause any amount of damage. Freeway.
Ricky Ross would be proud.
He would be an honest. He's in the same businesses, some Florida interior decorators.
So our assignment this week is to find a product that you think has inelastic demand. And tell us, why are there no substitutes? How much would you pay for it? Would you pay anything for it? And if this is a brand name product, maybe there's a reason that this product doesn't have competitors barriers to entry. Thank you very much, jutsu. I think I tried to move your names together. Jesse went today. Jesse, thank you so much.
Just at the bedside. Thanks, Robert. All right, students.
Let us know what you came up with from our assignment this week. Are there addictive products with inelastic demand that we have not thought of? Send your stories to Planet Money at NWPC Borghi or you can find us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and we're doing special TEQ talks reinforcing the economic lessons from summer school on the Tick Tock app. We're at Planet Money. Today's class was produced by Lern Hodges with help from James Sneed. Darian Woods. Alexi Horowitz Ghazi.
Nick Fountain and Litsa Yagur. Our sound design was from Isaac Rodriguez. It was edited by Alex Goldmark. If like me, you can't get enough of Betsey Stevenson and Justin Wolfers later this summer, they're releasing an audio course on the Hammil app. It's called Think Like an Economist. Remember everyone. It is never too early to start studying for the test. I love it when professors say that. I'm Robert Smith. This is NPR. Thanks for listening.