Happy Scribe Logo


Proofread by 0 readers

The blast from our past network. Hi, this is Jonathan Stark, Charlie from House to call from Friday night, kid, and you're listening to Podcasting after Dark. Lock your doors, close your windows, turn out your lights for chills and thrills await you. It's time for Podcasting After Dark with your host Corey Stephenson and Zach Shafer. Stay with a friend. Say your prayers as grisly ghouls close in to seal your doom. Tonight's episode, The Queen, starring Scott Glenn.


Alberta Watson and Juergen Prak now. Welcome to another bizarre synth filled episode of Podcasting After Dark, it's me, Zach.


And joining me is always my illustrious Lea sleezy see co-host Cory Stephenson. Cory, what's going on, dude?


Oh, oh, oh, oh.


You got to get through a little Richard Nixon in there to work here.


That was my Sir Ian McKellen impression. I was practising that on my wife earlier. And Yemen. I'm doing good, buddy. How are you doing?


We are. We are, of course, doing terrible impressions of three. MacLellan Mechelen, one of the stars of tonight's movie.


We're going to be breaking down.


It is none other than, oh, my God, I can't. I'm so excited just saying this. Michael Mann's the keep fuck you.


I say Michael Mann's the keep. He would probably say, no, it's not it's not mine. I didn't do it.


I didn't do that. Nope, nope, nope. I'm not attached to this. I'm not a part of this.


To quote Paul Wilson, the author of The Keep, would probably say to Michael Mann and quoting from our last movie we reviewed Fuck Off, I read that he wrote a short story entitled Cuts where the short story is about an author whose book is turned into a movie that is terrible. And then the author takes a voodoo doll in like I guess gets revenge on the director. That's how much he hated this movie. Yes, I look, I don't know EFO Wilson.


I don't I don't know Michael Mann, though. I hope to God someday we have him on our show. But I would say Michael Mann did the best he could. We'll get to that. Yeah.


And I will say that, you know, if Paul Wilson, rightfully so, is hurt by this movie, well, I mean, right at the top, we should address the fact that we watch the theatrical cut, which is an hour and 35 minutes. But Michael Mann's cut, original cut of the film is three and a half hours long. So as you can imagine, there's a lot on the cutting room floor and a lot of like stuff that was just I even I was watching was like, what's what's going on?


You know?


Well, and quote, we will never see that version ever, ever, ever, because this movie was it's the the DVD that both Corey and I watched this on. It is the only version out there thanks to Diabolique DVD, which is back online, by the way. So you can go on there and check out their sales.


They are the only ones that I know that carry this movie. You might be able to find it on eBay, but this is one of the. I'm just going to get right into it. Yeah.


The reason I chose this movie, this 1983 horror drama, fantasy, whatever the fuck it is in the best way possible, in my opinion, this was like a Holy Grail movie for me back in the day, like trying to find it on VHS even.


And I watched this movie with my brother Eric. I watched this movie incessantly when it would pop up on Cinemax or HBO. I always like clips. First thing in the morning would freak me the hell out. And I've been wanting to break this movie down since we started podcasting after dark. I'm like, I'm going to get to the keep eventually did and flaws and all.


I cannot wait to discuss this bizarre bonkers film and I chose it for all the reasons that bad is bad.


It is in my opinion. It's a perfect, bad movie.


Yeah, I think it's the definition of a cult movie for sure.


My I actually I have an experience, I have an experience with this myself. So and my mind was kind of like in the HBO format, you know, I had seen this movie when I was younger, but the thing was, it scared the crap out of me.


So I was so I would go over to my friend's house and he always made plans. And this wasn't Luke, by the way. This was this another friend, Robby, and he would always make plans to, like, stay up late and we'd always be doing stuff. But like, he would always fall asleep at like nine thirty. Right. And so, like, I'd be over at his house just till up till like 2:00 in the morning watching HBO and Cinemax and everything, because I didn't have either of those at my mom's house.


So I was like, cool, I'll just stay up and watch that stuff. And I remember when the keep came on one time and I watched it and I don't think I made it all the way through it because it scared the crap out of me and I'm watching it in.


And we'll get into everything about it, but like I'm watching it now and I'm like, it's not that scary of a movie, but it's a very intense film as a as like as far as like how things just sort of hit you the the visuals. There's there's always a lot of noise going on, a lot of wind, you know. And then when I was younger, like, I didn't understand why the main characters were Nazis, I was like, am I supposed to, like, be on their side?


It's just as a kid, it was just a very it's a very unconventional film and it just really just weirded me out, you know what I mean? Like, I was just weirded out by it. And then as we get older, as I got older, I was like, oh, I want to see this movie. I come to find that it's all the problems, you know, the behind the scenes stuff that we all now know about this film.


I was like, oh, I wish I'd paid more attention to it when I was a kid because now I can't see it anywhere, you know, like and you're exactly right. And so if you saw my unboxing video on Patreon when Zack sent this to me, I lit up when I saw it because I've been wanting to watch this. I wasn't going to ever, like, suggest it, but I didn't know if you would yourself. But I've been wanting to watch the keep for a long time.


And I regret nothing. I regret nothing. I regret nothing.


And I will say this, too. I posted, you know, today on Instagram that that we were going to review this tonight.


And a lot of people made comments on there that this is like their favorite movie. So I was like, oh, wow.


OK, all right, let's get into that.


I think I think it's it's I think it's safe to assume that our fans are fans of Michael Mann's work and like Manhunter or, you know, Miami Vice. And then so obviously, if you're a fan of Michael Mann's work, you know, about the keep, there are people that hate on this movie. I think it's it definitely has reasons to be hated to a certain degree.


However, I think that this film has a lot more to it than it gets credit for. And that was the other reason I wanted to bring it to the table just to break it down.


Like when and when we do the show, we and we do scene by scene. Sometimes we find in those revelations, oh, this is a lot better than we thought or oh, this is a big piece of dog. You do this.


So let's get into it. Let's let's kind of talk about who obviously the director is. Michael Mann.


Yeah. And I should add that, that with Michael Mann, if this movie didn't bomb in the theaters, we would not have gotten Miami Vice like he he he would have stayed as a movie director. But because this bombed, he kind of got pushed to TV because this was the 80s. And remember, TV was considered, you know, the lesser of the two formats. But because of the bombing of the keep, we have Miami Vice. So honestly, I would I like the timeline that we're on for this.


Yeah, we have we have Miami Vice. We have Crime Story, which is a great TV series, short lived in my opinion. We have Manhunter because he did those movies. This this allowed him there's a thing on IMDB that's like this movie forced Michael Mann to retreat to television. I'm like, I get it. It was a different time. Television was considered the lesser form at the time. However, I think you can easily say he elevated television.


Yeah. Because of his vision.


That's what's going to say. He, he, he, he turned, he turned the nothing format into a something format.


Yes. Agreed. Total agreement on that. Yeah. So he wrote the screenplay. It's based on an F. Paul Wilson book. My brother Eric read the book.


I did not because I'm not a quote unquote reader and I'm with you and I don't quote unquote read it except for comic books.


We both read comic books, but that's it.


Oh, my gosh. What are you reading right now?


Chuck Norris, his autobiography, which is actually I got I picked up a girl that way.


I didn't intentionally pick her up. She picked me up.


And so doing so did Eric say how the movie was, how the book was compared to the movie.


Oh, yeah. So so he's he's a huge F Paul Wilson fan. EFO Wilson actually wrote a lot of really cool horror sci fi stuff back in the day.


Yeah, I think he's always enjoyed this movie, the key, because I think he appreciates it for what it is like, the fact that we just have it versus like not having it at all. But yeah, there's just a ton that's left out. I don't remember specifics about it.


If he's listening to this episode, maybe he can go on our page or just this call me and tell me because he's got a lot.


Say about it, we should probably bring to light that you you nor I have seen the three and a half hour cut and we haven't read the book. So we kind of have to just sort of go off what we have in front of us, especially probably more so for me, like I'm going to be judging the movie itself based on what we have, because I don't know what was missing other than I know that we have a movie. We have more missing parts than the movie itself is a whole right now.


Do you know what I mean? Like, we have more time that's cut out than we have actually on the screen, I think.


But I think you and I will as we as we go along on our journey, we will point out scenes that are clearly like a bad edit, just a chopped scene. There's so many moments where you're like, oh, wait, that guy had his face covered in blood and now he's, like, comforting the main characters.


You know, they're very disjointed moments. Yeah.


And I even noticed because I don't know if I'll be able to bring it up in the moment, but I'll say I'll say it now. But I noticed a couple of times, like the cinematography even changed, like sometimes they would have that that sharp focus cinematography. And then sometimes, like almost in the same scene, they would cut to like one of those soft filter focuses, you know, that you see. And like I said, literally, it'd be in the same scene.


They would have different sort of filters in looks to things. It was it was inconsistent in that regard. But but, you know, I don't know why if it was because of reshoots or whatever. And there was also a moment where I saw a character I'll just mentioned and you probably mention who he is.


He was he he played Dietrich in Raiders of the Lost Ark. And in the beginning of this movie, he was like he was one of the I think it was the Nazis, the Nazi whose head exploded in Raiders of the Lost Ark.


But in this movie, he was he was one of the the grunt guys, like with with the main guy. And then at the end of the movie, he was a Nazi, like he was wearing the black outfit. So like, did his character go through an arc during this, you know, did his character go from being one of the German soldiers to a Nazi in this movie? And they just cut that arc out completely. But yeah, this movie and then the priest, that one scene where the priest is like sacrificing the dog and his eyes are all red and it's like, OK, yeah, there's so many little weird as a whole.


The movie flows and you're like, OK as a whole. But then there's these little moments that you realize you're like, oh God, there's something else here that we don't even know what they were trying to do.


Yeah. And I think that's very clear that the studio and people need to also recognize look, I talked to Matt Adler, the star of Northshore in Honor in an interview that I did for two dollars Sheeplike and talking about the movie Whitewater Summer that we did.


That he did. And how they the studio just got a hold of it and they just chopped it up and made it its own thing.


We hear these stories all the time. I think this is one of those stories. Michael Mann not wanting to even discuss this movie. I get it. Look, I do. But I think he also needs to recognize there's enough moving parts in this movie where you go, oh, my God, this thing is beautiful. This is this is the movie along with Tron that you turn the sound off and you just trip balls. Do I don't trip balls.


But I know Corey went and I just turned the sound off.


You put on a synth, you could just put on the Tangerine Dream score for this movie and not even know that what's going on dialogue wise and just trip out, you know, and I think that's a beautiful experience. I do, too.


And honestly going I'll just tell you now, going into this review, that was going to be literally my assessment of the film, which is, you know what, I don't think about it, just either get drunk or get high and just watch it at this movie. This is a movie that just needs to pour over you. But that being said, we are going to break it down scene by scene. And it's happened a lot of times before I go into our review thinking one way.


And then after the discussion, you know, I may have different thoughts on it, but right now that would be my preferred way of viewing this movie is to just be high as fuck and just let it wash over you because it's like a dream. This movie is like a dream. And I got to say that Tangerine Dream soundtrack is fan fucking tactic. It is a real gem here.


Yeah. Let's let's talk about it. So let's go through the cast really quick and then we'll talk about that Tangerine Dream soundtrack. Scotty, my boy, Scotty Glenn not not a Scottie Pippen. Scotty Glenn plays and I don't even think they refer to him as Glik in the entire movie.


But he but he's technically he's top billed. Yeah. I wouldn't say he's the lead actor, but Scott Glenn, we all know him from.


I mean. I know. We love him from the right stuff and Backdraft, he he's he's just a phenomenal actor, he's not a lot apparently.


He's just awesome.


The guy the guy is a tour de force. He's a tour de force. Silence of the Lambs Hunt for Red October.


The list goes on. I love like Scott Glenns look, you know, like some people just have like a look that you're just like that. You just you look cool. And I just I see him. I'm like, man, he just he looks so goddamn cool. Although I will say Scotlands always one of those guys that has like an old face, like even when he's younger. I always thought he looked older, but he does age well, like he looks he looked good in the daredevil show when he played stick.


And was he in that movie? One of the two I can't remember, but. Yeah, yeah. So yeah. And and I saw and of course in this movie where he has that thing at the end, I'm like, oh, Scott Green always playing a white samurai looking motherfucker.


Well he was yeah he, he was in another samurai movie. The name escapes me right now, but he was in a really killer thriller called Slaughter of the Innocents that came out in the 90s.


That was really good. It's like straight to video shit. But it was it was good. Yeah, but he played a samurai in some other movie. Oh. And Man on Fire before Denzel Washington remade the movie. That's a remake, by the way. Yeah, yeah. A Man on Fire is his movie. But yeah. Scott Glenn plays GLAC in Alberta. Watson plays Ava Coosa. I didn't know who she was until I looked her up on IMDB.


She's been in a whole slew of things. One that stands out to me was she was in Hedwig and the Angry Inch, and that is my personal all time favorite musical next to Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, which are two totally different musicals that if you've never seen Hedwig and the Angry Inch, it's phenomenal. It's beautiful. It's amazing. Juergen Prak now plays warm and most people will recognize Jurgen now from Das Boot.


That's I yeah, that's his big thing. But I know him as Duke Leto atrocities in the Dooen movie 1984. David Lynch Dune movie.


Yeah, dude. And I equally know him for as Sutter Cane in the Mouth of Madness. John Carpenter's final good movie he made.


And the one the one movie that you and I didn't get to in our John Carpenter. John Carpenter after a summer that we watched, like all of his movies and I still haven't seen in the mouth of madness because I was trying to see it with you. So hopefully we never recovered lifts. And you can come visit me or I can come visit you. I want to watch in the mouth of madness with you because I was supposed to and I'm not going to watch it until I do.


That is a guarantee. Amte, my friend actually carrying on the the John Carpenter tip. The next actor was in the movie Christine, which is one of my favorite Stephen King novel is what do you call it, adaption to movies, adaptations. Thank you. Thank you. Robert Prosky plays plays father for Mănescu, who has one of the worst accents in this movie. But we'll get to that later.


Yeah, and I didn't recognize him until I looked him up on IMDB and Solway looked like with white hair. And I was like, oh, it's that guy.


Yeah, that guy has been in everything he's in. He's in everything. You'll recognize them from Mrs. Doubtfire, dead man walking broadcast news. Those are like some top billed movies, but in his character and Christine, he owns the auto mechanic shop where Christine is stored. Yeah. Or restored. And he's great, dude. He's such a he's such a kind of grimy dude, and he's his role in this.


I feel like we're supposed to be a lot bigger, but it wasn't I think every role in this movie was supposed to be about a lot bigger than it was agreed.


And then Gabriel Byrne, Gabriel Byrne, the Irish gangster from Miller's Crossing, which is another underrated Coen Brothers movie.


Oh, but that is my that is my favorite Coen brothers movies, Miller's Crossing. I fucking love that movie. It's it's actually one of it's one of my top five favorite, like crime drama films.


I'm a huge Miller's Crossing fan and I even I love when when Gabriel Burns like he's taking me out to the woods to go kill him. And then he's like, he looks all cool and collected and just like kind of falls over and vomits. You know, I was like, man, he's just that movie's awesome. I fucking and then but just seeing him in this movie, he's so young and I'm just like I mean I know he's playing a Nazi and everything, but man oh man, I love Gabriel Byrne.


Everything that he's in, I'm just like I just stare at him like I just like I just absorb him. I'm like, he's amazing.


Yeah. He plays Eric Kemfert and. Yeah, I mean, Miller's Crossing. Is is phenomenal and, you know, people know him probably from usual suspects, he played the devil in end of days. Yeah.


And more recently he was in hereditary. He was the dad and hereditary. I mean, he's working and he's always working, popping up in small films, big films. I remember he was in the movie Ghost Ship, you know, so he's all over the place.


That dude, Gabriel Byrne works, man. He works. Hey, he was in cool world. Yeah.


Cool world too. Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's, and he's so cool. He's such a embeddedness. He plays such an evil Nazi commandant Kemper Eric Kemper and then not last but not least.


But one of the last in the cast is Ian McKellen before he was Sir Ian McKellen. Gee, I wonder where people recognize this motherfucker from.


This movie comes on and Kristen, who rarely watches my movies pod pad movie, she goes, is that Gandalf?


I go, Yeah, that's a very young Gandalf.


And he's doing Boy Gandalf and he's doing Gandalf the the the entire time and or I guess.


Or is it Richard Nixon. Yeah, I don't know man. But the problem is and I'm going to have to address it now guys, there's no subtitles on this DVD and I, I'm going to be honest with you, I understood about two thirds of the dialogue in this film. And just so you will know, like I normally have my TV on, like the volume set like 20. Right. I had this movie set to like 40. And of course, all the wind and explosions, like, blew my damn speakers out.


And then there's one scene later on that we'll talk about where I had to turn the damn volume to 60 just to hear what Scott Glenn was saying. But one of my problems in this, he was this was even a problem with Lord of the Rings. I can never understand. Gerngross four. And then even in this is a ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba. And I'm just like, are you kidding me?


Are you fucking kidding me? I can't understand anything you're saying, but yet I love everything you're saying.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. He, he has quite a he's he's probably got the most over-the-top character outside of the main demon. But yeah his, his character is pretty phenomenal in good and bad ways.


But, but hey bro let's ok before really quick before, before we get into it, I just want to point out the fact that Michael Mann did a made for TV movie back in like 1979 called The Jericho Mile. First of all, it's a bad ass title. It's a bad ass movie. If you can track it down, I highly recommend it. It's loosely based on a true story about a convict who's trying to get in the Olympics and Peter Strauss is in it.


It's just a fucking bad ass movie. So like, you know, people run down his list of movies that they love. That's definitely a highlight for me is Jericho Mile.


And people are going to hear this going to be like, oh, I guess it's a deep take. Yeah, it is. It is, because that's exactly what I do. It's what I do, baby. OK, so, yeah, let's just get into it because the rest of the cast is kind of ho hum.


Hold on. Before we jump in, we got to talk about what the connection is between this movie and the dead kid's movie.


So, yeah, as I said, when we did Dead Kids, I said there's going to be a connection between or maybe I did it in the wrap up, which you can get as a patriotic member.


And if you're not subscribe to Patreon, please do that because it supports the show. It supports us. And you get some really great content like exclusive interviews wrap up after dark bonus episodes.


It's it's good. It's really good.


So if you're only listening on the free feeds, you're really only getting a third of what we produce. So everything else is over on.


Everything we do is on Patreon.


I'm just saying it's well worth the the few bucks that you can kick down. And if you can't, no big deal. Totally understand. It's all good. Just saying cheap plug. If you're able to do it, please do. But yeah, the connection in I said in the Dead Kids episode or the wrap up or or you asked me, you asked me what the connection was.


Oh yeah. Do you think you know the connection. It's Tangerine dream baby. Tangerine dream baby.


Come on daydream. One of the best.


OK for Corey obviously knows this about me and Corey is a fan too. I love synth wave music. The Midnight is probably one of my favorite new bands from 84, but I love that 80s old school synth John Hammer gunship gunship is good to gunship is great. Yep, but Tangerine Dream was one of the first bands quote unquote to do soundtracks and give like that since. Score, you know, obviously, people like Vince DeCola and Brad Fidele and Richard Band, they all do like that synth kind of thing.


But Tangerine Dream was just like, you know, Daft Punk doing the soundtrack to Tron. It's the same kind of deal. But what they did, they did soundtracks for dead kids.


Mm hmm. This the key, obviously, three, a legend by legend and so risky business. The list goes on. Really killer. I would say. Dare I say this is one of this might be their best soundtrack they've ever done.


Dare I say this soundtrack is the best part of this movie.


I agree with you.


I agree that in the visuals, I mean, the fucking wall, the wall, just a dig in, like a little bit deeper. Just, you know, like I say, saying it's the best part of the movies. It's like whatever. But like, it's so good. And it adds this layer of dreamlike quality to the movie that, you know, I know that that's what Michael Mann wanted to go for. But like there's scenes in here that you would never imagine that like a band like Tangerine Dream would be like doing the music for.


But yet it just it works, man. It all, like the music in this thing works just like with dead kids and just like with with legend, which is interesting because legend already has like a dreamlike quality and it takes place in a fantasy world. This has a dreamlike quality, but it takes place in a realistic world. So the juxtaposition of the music and like sort of the story that's going on and then the visuals you're sort of seeing is a lot more extreme than than, say, legend or something is.


But it doesn't mean it doesn't fit. I think it's I think it's a stroke of genius to have music like that in this movie.


I think if it wasn't for Tangerine Dream, this I think they added a lot to this movie. And a lot of its longevity comes from the fact that the Tangerine Dream soundtrack is just so, so good. So bonkers. Good.


Yeah, yeah. I mean, you fans know that music means so much to a movie. It can make or break a movie. It really can. It really can.


A shitty soundtrack can just be at the top of my head. I can't think of any right now, but I do know that might be a great watch list, like great movies with terrible soundtrack.


And and so this soundtrack elevates this movie from a piece of crap to a shiny diamond in the rough. So, I mean, let's let's let's do the thing, man. Let's just do it.


Let's do it, guys. And all right, guys and gals, if you've never seen this movie before, this is it. This is you know, if I was a listener of this show, I'd be so happy right now because I've never seen this movie and it never would have if you didn't get it for me. So I appreciate that. So but this is it. We're going to dig into it.


We're going to dig into it. And if you don't want it spoiled, go out and buy the DVD from Diabolique DVD. Don't don't go on eBay. Just sincerely Diabolique DVD and I, we don't get any money from them. They don't even probably know who we are yet, but they are a great independent like cult horror sci fi website that puts out some great shit stuff you can't find anywhere else. And they got a great feature where if they are out of stock on something, you put your email in and they they let you know pronto, like.


So this was out of stock and put my email in. They let me know I bought two copies, one for CareMore for myself. And then right after I did that, they were sold out again. So go on Diabolique DVD by that then. Listen to this. If you don't want any spoilers, because we're going to spoil a ton of shit. Everything, literally everything.


What with this place? This place was not built to keep. Anything out of this place was built to keep something. I must not stay here. Something has been lately something. Did you find what you were looking for? Whatever kills us gets in anyway. Nothing we do, no security works. Name to me. The key from Paramount Pictures, the movie opens up with, like very subtle credits, read very like, I love that. It's very, like, understated.


Again, typical Michael Mann just chill. Even like with his credits, I go, Oh, it's a Michael Mann movie. I love it. The music opens up and it's a forest. And like, look what looks like Romania. There's all these Nazi jeeps and tanks and an army coming down the road. This dude, like, lights up a cigar and you realize it's it's Juergen pronounced character, Klaus. And at this point, I really like the music just kicks ass.


Yeah, right out of the gate. Right out of the gate. Just fucking kicks ass.


And then along the way while they're doing this are shots of like clouds and just impending doom.


There's a sense of impending doom. And they drive into this village, this group of Nazis driving to this village. And the villagers are all wandering around like with this look of fear. And I have to point out to this village is beautiful. Like the moment you see every visual is beautiful, like the location for this thing is just ridiculous.


Yeah. It's like a little cottage town that's in between these like Granite Mountains, you know, and I guess it's whatever the rock is that's that's made out of that. The keep is made out of. But my note is the village looks amazing and yeah. Do this this entire opening scene in a movie that's like an hour and 35 minutes, it's like it's like four minutes long, almost five minutes long of just music and then slow motion of them driving into the town while the like while the villagers watch them and everything.


But it's a beautiful sort of set up to the experience that's going to be coming at you, you know, really quickly, because, I mean, it's like you said, it's an hour and five minute film. It goes by fast.


It goes by really fast. And and they they pick up pretty quickly after this kind of just kind of like lull of, OK, what's going on, sets the stage. You see at the bottom of the of the screen the Dinu Pass, Carpathian Alps in Romania. So it is in Romania. And then you see, like the father, Robert Prosky character, step out with his, like, dyed black hair.


And if you don't know again, if you don't know Robert Prosky, every other role he's been in, he looks the same. This one he's got like he looks like Rasputin a little bit. Yeah, I know.


He I thought that was like is the connection Rasputin. But no, you didn't say the connection with the Tahawwur Express right out of the gate. Like, like he's he's talking to like the guy, he's the person who's driving him, you know. And I don't know, I already got the sense that I liked Wartman. You know, he he didn't he doesn't come off bad right away.


Yeah. Because, yeah. The soldier he's talking to, what Warman basically says, you know, you know, welcome to your new home. Right. And he says to the soldier, he's like, we're monsters.


We're monsters of the world. We're done fighting. We've been assigned to the guard this past.


And here is where we'll stay, basically like resigning. The fact that the Nazis are the monsters of the world and this group of ragtag soldiers is now kind of like they're done, hopefully hurting, torturing people will.


All right. But here's the thing. And we're not doing any kind of like apologist or whatever. But but no, they're those guys are German soldiers. They're not technically Nazis. And because the Nazis role in later and we also find out later that woman actually would have probably fought against the fascist Germans. So like you, I wish they would actually get more into that because I honestly find that a little bit more intriguing, which I guess they kind of delve into in that in that Valkyrie movie with Tom Cruise where there was like, you know, not again, I don't want to be apologetic, but not every Nazi, OK?


Not every German soldier was evil. I'll say it. Probably every Nazi was evil, but not every German soldier was evil. And these guys are more like German soldier grunts And then later, Warman says something that I think implies that he himself was a Romanian, like he was just brought in. You know, he would have, you know, like I think he would have fought the Germans earlier. But since they got occupied, he is just now a German soldier.


He's just a Romanian soldier fighting for the Germans. But he's not a Nazi.


No, he's not. And so he has redeeming qualities that will come up through this film.


You know, he's he's a great character. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, as as they do this, as they are approaching, you know, as they see the pass, this big wall that they're supposed to guard it, it's I can't even do it justice by describing it.


It's just beautiful. It's this giant. Mountain with this with this entrance in the front, which is so creepy, they go into they go into it, the keep and the walls are covered with what looks like silver tees their crosses. And as they're in their worman hears a sound and he pulls his gun on somebody. He pulls his gun on this guy, the actor. The actor is William Morgan Shepard.


And I was going to say, I know we're do you know where I'll say where I know him from, where you know him from. He was the bad guy in Elvira. Mistress of the Dark.


Yeah, dude, actually, that's exactly what I was thinking, too. That's where I mostly recognize him from. I mean, he's been in everything from Transformers to Star Trek to like, yeah, Gettysburg. It's all over. But yeah, dude, that's exactly where I recognized him from.


But I do want to say to the dark real quick, I with you. I'm with you. I loved the design of the keep the the the production design of this movie is outstanding. The Romanian Village, because I think they they built the set inside of an abandoned quarry, all the exteriors type of stuff, I think. But regardless, the set design in this movie was top fucking notch. The keep is like it looks so ominous. It looks so, you know, foreboding and it's really cool looking.


Yeah, it's hard to describe it. I couldn't even describe it. It's just it's interesting looking. It's very cool looking. And I love it. I do love it. But I also love this exchange between woman and the caretaker of him and his family and everything that we're about to have.


Yeah, the caretaker is his name is Alexandru. He's there with his sons. And he he, after Mormon realizes he's not a threat. He starts describing Alex does Alexandru starts describing the key and that there's a hundred and eight of these crosses made of nickel. And he says, you know, no one, no one, no one leaves. No one stays in this place. He's and he's he's been taking care of this keep since his father did.


He followed in his father's footsteps and his sons will, too.


But like I was saying, I like how Mormons like and like, who do you answer to or something? He's like nobody. He's like, how do you know what to do? And he's like, we just do like we just we just do it, you know? He like Mormons looking like who owns this keep? And it's like nobody. We just regard it type of thing. And I did. And I like the conversation because like Mormons, like, you know, are there ghosts?


He's like, no, no one's ever died here before. It's weird because all the words that he's saying, the words themself doesn't seem like this place is bad.


But he's like, nope, no one's ever died here. Nope.


But yet no one's ever stays here, you know, just like there's something ominous about it, you know.


Yeah. And then and then Klaus says Wurman says, you know what drives what drives people out of this place? And he says, dreams. And I love that. Like, oh, I just you know, you know this about me.


Everyone who knows about me knows that I love Prince of Darkness, John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness. I just like the idea of dreams controlling you. This the unknown. I love having scary dreams. Believe it or not, I think you get your best ideas from some of those. This feels like a dream, right?


I wouldn't know. I never dream. I know. That's right.


Because we talked.


And so Clowes is saying, you know, he wants the rest of the tour. And while the Nazis are moving in at the same time, they say this is one of those moments where you're like, OK, I feel like this. The scene probably went on longer than I was supposed to, but they cut to the father, Father Francesco, and he's in his church and he's praying and he's smoking, of course, like smoking a cigarette. And then and then it cuts right back to Klaus and Alexander Worman.


I'm sorry, I'm going to be calling him Klaus and Mormon throughout this whole thing. It's Klaus Worman.


OK, yeah, I he's only warming in the in the IMDB and then I had to go off of IMDB because again I could only understand at best two thirds of the dialogue for this film. So yeah I agree. Yeah.


There's going to be folks, there's going to be a couple of times when Cary and I are like I have no idea what he said, but he said something and it's probably relevant.


But yeah, you know, it seemed important, but I don't know. Yeah.


And we'll just end it by going, oh, I'm not a crook.


He's Korey's going to do Gandalf. I'm going to do about Richard Nixon. And there you go.


So cuts back to Worman and Alexandru and still giving the tour and warmings like describing the way it looks. You know, he's like typically with these places the the small. The small bricks are like on the inside and the large ones on there, on the outside, but this is constructed backwards. It's almost designed like some to keep something out and just keep telling them keep something in.


Sorry, keep something in. That's right. Sorry. And while this is going on, soldiers are like stringing lights. But then one of the soldiers is trying to take one of the crosses off and Alexandru freaks out.


He's like, you know, no one ever touches the crosses. You must you must not stay here, you know, and then warm.


It is warm and says, you know, you just got yourself night duty, basically saying to the guy like because you tried to steal this cross.


And that's almost kind of like I feel like that was Walkman's Save the cat moment. You know, like it shows you that he's honorable. He he's he's not a guy. He's he's not a monster like the Nazis and everything. He's more honorable and he stays that way for the entire duration of the film. So I'd like that right away. I was like, OK, I like warm and I always like characters that, you know, it's, you know, the quote unquote the bad guy, even though he's probably technically, I would say, warmings the the protagonist or one of them of the film.


But it's always interesting to see sort of a different perspective on the German army that, you know, as a kid, you just assumed they were all bad, everyone's evil. It's all black and white, you know, and then you realize that, OK, some of these soldiers were just you know, they just got sucked into the to the the German Nazi machine because they you know, when they take over countries, they would just absorb the you know, the soldiers into their probably into their, you know, whatever.


And that's what these guys were or whatever. But the point is, is that right away, you know, you war and it'll be more apparent when Gabriel Byrne comes. But, you know, Warman isn't a monster at this point.


No. And I also get the sense that woman's character is like done. He's he's done fighting. He's done being a soldier. He's exhausted and he's just like, whatever, like, OK, no, you're not going to steal the cross because that's fucked up. Yeah, but you got night duty.


So sorry. Sorry I just saved you a little bit, but you got to do you still got to pay for, you know, trying to do something wrong.


Cuts to the clouds darkening in the night and now it's nighttime still at the keep. It's cold, the lights are flickering and wind is moving around. And there's guards outside the entrance. And one of the guards notices that the cross one of the crosses starts to shine and starts to glow. And it's drawing him in and he starts walking towards it. And as he walks towards it, he starts picking with his you know, he's picking at it and he says, oh, you know, he says, yes, the crosses are Niccolò, but not this one.


And that's when, like, the synth is starting to kick in more. Again, the synth is so killer. Yeah.


This entire scene like him, like, oh, my God. Like like you describing it, no offense does not do it justice. And honestly, it's my favorite scene in the movie because I love how he's slowly walking towards the cross as the as the Tangerine Dream synth wave. It's like slowly increasing volume, like coming into play. And then that soundtrack just is this entire scene with that Tangerine Dream soundtrack is just and you know, Michael Mann shooting in slow motion and stuff like you didn't have to do that.


You didn't have to do any of that. You could have just made the guy walk over there and do exactly what you said in the script. But Michael Mann said, no, we're going to shoot in slow motion. We're going to make it very dreamlike like this. This music is going to just play during the whole thing as it slowly builds up volume. And you're just like, oh, my God, this is amazing. Right out of the gate.


This movie, you're just like, oh, my God, this is awesome. I can't believe what I'm seeing. But also, I would say as a kid, I as a kid, this is what really kind of maybe off put me because I'm just like it's just, dude, it was it's such an assault on the senses that I wasn't ready for when I was like, you know, twelve years old, you know, by myself in the basement, you know, like I maybe if I was with somebody watching it, like, you know, like I'm like trying to like my my siding with Nazis, I don't understand who I'm siding with.


And the wind is blowing. And I love wind in movies, by the way, because it's so ominous and I love how windy it is. But, you know, and then this music is playing and I'm just like as a kid, I'm just and I'm like in all but at the same time, utterly terrified.


Well, I will say, because the first time I saw this, I was probably seven or eight years old, which is crazy to even think about. And I was always attracted to this.


This this is what I love about movies, music and image, purely music and image. And this movie incorporates it. So, like you said. So beautifully, and we cannot do it justice by breaking it down, we are going to go scene by scene. But I'll tell you what, Mike, you got to see this movie for itself.


Yeah, simply for the fact. Forget the story. Beautiful. It's just beautiful. So the guards. Yeah. Lutz is the main guard that first sees the the cross in the end. And then he calls in auto the other soldier that's on duty that night. And he yells out, you know, it's like silver, it's silver.


And they start to pry off, they're trying to pry out the cross.


And as they do, they realize that they're like trying to pry the whole block, the the whole cement block, the concrete block that that it's supporting out of the wall. And and as they're doing that, the whole block started to come out and they think they're going to be rich. And then the whole block like falls in, like in instead of going out, it goes in. And it doesn't just go. It goes down like a tunnel.


This this scene freaked me the hell out then as much as it does now, because it's such an unknown, you know, falling into like that movie. The Descent captured that so well. We're like, oh, holy shit, where are you going?


This unknown, like cavern like we don't even know where this place is. Right.


And so I fucking love that. It's much the way.


Oh, yes, I know you do. That's why I threw that out there. So so Lutzes is like, you know, he goes down into the hole and Otto has like kind of taken their belts and they're creating like kind of like a, you know, like a like a rope system to kind of get them to go into the side of the hole. And as he does, I love the scene. Yeah, he's trying to grab the cross and he's like, there's more silver down here.


And the block falls back even more.


And and Lutze falls down into the hole and he realizes he's in a chamber like a giant cave.


This creepy I, I called it the monolith because he has this weird, like, concrete structures that look something like Out of Phantasm or 2001 A Space Odyssey in the Cave Man seen. Right. Like these these weird concrete blocks that look like I always and it's this giant ominous dark cavern.


And you don't see a lot and this is a perfect example of less is more because you just get the sense the camera pans back and you see Lutze is like tiny little character in the can in the corner of the screen, in the darkness.


And I want to know how they did that because I mean to say that it's huge like cock just getting just to say that it's huge is an understatement. Seriously, like like when the camera I don't know if it's a map painting or what they did, but when the camera like pans out from Lutts, I mean it goes all the way back and it's massive, like we're talking like Super Dome big like, like huge. And yeah, it's and I love it with like you said, there are these pillars down there and it's really cool because immediately you're like, this is all caverns.


But those pillars, even though they clearly are sort of made out of the rocks in the granite that are in there, they're also made by something. And that's what kind of gives it, you know, a little bit of omnes ness to it, because those are that's something that's made, you know, and then all of a sudden, it's like electricity sort of shoots out of them. But you do that. I'm with you, man. That entire sounds like what the thing is crazy looking.


That cavern is wild. And I loved I loved it and I love those pillar thingies.


Yeah, it oh, man. It's, it's, it's probably was filmed very minimally like they did. And you can tell that you didn't use a whole lot of special effects board, but it's so, so badass. And yeah. As that's happening, you know, lutzes like pull me back yelling to auto to pull him back up. And as that happens this yeah. This weird beam of light shoots through the pillars and up the entrance and and and shoots up and you hear, you know, as Otto's pulling Lutz back up, you hear this, you know, loud kind of ominous sound.


Right. And as auto pulls him back, he reveals finally gets Lutz and then he starts kind of getting grossed out because he's only pulled back Lutzes lower torso. And the rest of it's just kind of like entrails hanging there.


He falls on the ground. He's all freaked out the air that's been kind of released after the after they pushed this, you know, cube into the pit, all this air got released. And then now the air is now being, like, sucked back in. The entire wall is now moving and auto is just blasted, explodes, which is so crazy looking.


I love it in.


The thing is, what I really enjoyed was that like first off, when you pulled up Lutz. Yeah, he he's he's there's entrails and stuff like that, but there's no blood. A creature like blows you up and you're almost like papier mâché. It's really cool looking because it's really not bloody at all. And but I loved it. I loved how different it is because, yeah, you could have just said, oh, it ripped them in half and you pull lower.


And I've seen that a million fucking times, like the lower half and it's all meaty, the upper half. You know, it's OK. I've seen that a gazillion times, but I've never seen something that's been blown apart by like energy. And like when Len Lutz gets when when Otto gets blown back, he's like he gets blown back in midair and like in midair, he explodes like he's only a little bit. It's so cool because, again, like they could have said, make his entire body just completely explode.


And Haebich and I've seen that, too. It's like he just kind of explodes. And that right there honestly, weirdly makes it more terrifying.


Yeah, it's it's I've seen that like in in maybe in the beyond and flashes the beyond when, like, they blast someone's brains open. It's kind of like this slowmo effect.


It's very it reminds me it's kind of Italian shock moments and it's very effective. It's super effective and. Yeah. And outrate after that happens, all the soldiers are freaking out and shooting. And as this is going on and the lights pouring out of the keep, suddenly Scott Glenns character GLAC on awakens. You cut to the scene of him sitting up with his eyes open and his eyes are like white, milky ish looking. He's got this really killer kind of contact lenses going on.


And then there's like also like this weird particle effect in front of him as he wakes up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


He lays up out of bed and like, there's weird almost like particle sparks kind of floating around him. Almost like when you rub your eyes really tight and you see all the kind of like weird star spots around you. Yeah.


Yeah, it was cool, but I felt like I felt like there was probably something more to like in star stuff like the whatever.


But he I do like his purple eyes, his eyes are cool as shit.


Yeah. He's very mysterious looking and you're like well automatically you know that his character is very relevant to just what happened. He's connected to the keep being released. But you find that out in a little bit. He immediately gets up, it backs up his shit and he's got this really cool long wooden case. But you don't know what's inside the wooden case. You will at the end and he leaves in the night from whatever in he's staying at and he gets to a dock.


He's near the near the water. That's like a ship dock with ships, you know, and it turns out it's like a piece of.


Yeah, port. Thank you. It's impressive.


It's like, what's the thing with the ships in the water and the docks? What's the thing that you sit in in the water. But it doesn't it keeps you from getting wet a boat.


Yeah but yeah, I'm not a crook.


So he wants to hire a boat to take him to Romania's coast and then he pays. This guy's like, oh, it's going to cost you a lot of money. And and he pays the guy obviously. And then because the next scene is he's on a ship, the ship in the sea and it's a long shot.


It's maybe like a thirty second scene of just the ship being on the water. And it's beautiful, man. Like again, it's another beautiful visual where you lose like, oh, I stare this for a long time.


There's a there's an old Russian film called Solaris, which they did a week, George Clooney remake twenty, ten years ago. I guess the original Solaris. There's scenes where there's like literally a two minute scene where the camera is on a running stream just on the running stream for like two minutes.


It's very artistic. And that's a three hour movie. Yeah, I love that shit, dude. Like, I just love movable art that just so this scene of the boat going on the water, it's just gorgeous.


And also I'm like, I would never survive. I'd blow chunks on that boat.


I'm with you, man. I actually kind of liked Solaris, the George Clooney one. I really like my sci fi to be slow and plodding. My my favorite Star Trek movie is The Motion Picture because there's like a fucking like four minutes shot of the Enterprise flying over Voyager, you know, and I'm like, No. One today. Would you ever have, like, a four minute shot of the enterprise? Just fine, you know? And I just I love that shit, man.


I love it.


Unfortunately, we went through a really long phase of short attention span scenes. And so you you don't get this kind of stuff anymore with mainstream movies. This movie's not necessarily mainstream. Maybe it was intended to be and it definitely did not go that route.


So cuts back to the keep in close, gets word from one of the soldiers that Steinar. Is also dead now, there's like five Nazis dead or five German soldiers dead, which which tells you that I guess there's there's been a sort of a time lapse between, you know, seeing the GLAC and stuff to to now. I you know, I would assume that there's been a couple nights at least have passed. Yeah.


Yeah, a few nights have passed probably. And at that point, Worman has asked for relocation for his soldiers because he's he's clearly freaking out and he runs outside of the key because he hears a noise. And rolling into town are the official Nazis with Gabriel Byrne's character, Eric Kemfert. I was referring to him as Eric because they never call him. I don't really think they ever use the word Kemper.


They call him Eric the whole time to the movie, but they show up. And originally in the beginning of the movie, when the German soldiers show up, they just kind of roll into town and the villagers look scared, but they don't really do anything to hurt them. At least they don't show that. But when the Nazis roll into town, they're being very aggressive. They're pushing everybody around, they round everybody up in town, and they line up a bunch like maybe three of the villagers and they open.


And as as they're getting ready to open fire and kill them, Mormons running out, yelling, you know, no, stop, stop. He's trying to stop them. But it's too late. He's killed all the villagers and or all three of the ones that he lined up.


Not not all of them, but. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Kill civilians. Oh yeah. But I also I loved woman's reaction. I mean, he he is literally running to try to save these people, you know. And again, I'd like that, I like that his character is not a bad guy, even though he's a German soldier. You know, it's.


Yeah, he's on the bad side for sure. He's on the side of that. He's not a bad guy. He's he's he's on the he's on the wrong side. He's on the bad side. But he's not a bad guy.


He's he's a sympathetic character. Yeah. Because you feel like he's trying to do the right thing because Mormans yelling at Eric Kemper, you know, and and Eric very calmly. Gabriel Byrne's Nazi character is just he's like pure evil is pure evil. And he's like, yeah, relocation has been denied. And and the camper rounds up more villagers and he takes them to the keep. And then finally, Father VNU runs out and he's like, you know, they don't know anything.


They know nothing.


And Eric says, you know, one more villager does it one more. If one one more of my soldiers dies, these five hostages will all be shot dead. And we'll keep on killing until my soldiers aren't killed anymore.


And they head off to the keep because Kimara is doing this because he thinks that that these these peasants, these these villagers are the ones that are killing the soldiers, or at least maybe they're harboring the person, killing the soldiers.


But at this point, Warman knows, like he knows that no one from outside is getting in. He knows that it's happening from the inside. But, you know, Quimper is Eric is not going to believe that at this point.


Yeah, because they go into Walkman's quarters and Mormans yelling at him. You know that Romania is an allied state like don't kill the people that we are supposed to, you know, be friends with. Yeah. And and Eric Kemfert doesn't give a shit. He's just, you know, he's typical. He's that he's the typical Nazi. Just he's cold piece of crap. And then Worman is trying to tell him kind of reason with him. But but now like Eric is, Eric Kemper's blaming his incompetence, you know, and and then he says Kemper's is something like fear is the answer to to stop all of this and collapses.


Like whatever he whatever is killing us, it doesn't care. And if it's like us, then does your fear work? And I love that because it's like if the thing you're trying to destroy or scare is just like you and you apparently don't scare at all, like, how is that going to work at all?


Right. Yeah. Yeah. And then and then Kamper responds by saying, well, let's go see. Right. Bring a hostage and raid after they that happens, there's you see that Steiner's character has been burned to a crisp. They're going to see like the aftermath of just the latest attack from the keep. And it's a really cool because he's horribly.


Burned and it's just it's just like melted almost, and then they go to this wall in the keep and there's words on the wall and then just this weird language.


And Kemper wants to know what it says and he threatens to kill this villager. And that's when Father Finnessey, who runs in and, you know, interrupts, he keeps the guy from getting killed and the priest or the father says, you know, it's not in land, it's not in Latin or Cyrillic. No one can tell. No one can decipher this or talk about the keep, except for a professor of medieval history in the University of Tennessee.


And it's Dr. Coosa Khuza'a. He grew language play by play part Gundotra Nutcracker.


Yes. And at that point, he's revealed that he's Jewish. Yeah. Because Keppra goes, where is this Dr. Coosa? And and the father says, well, he's Jewish. And so he's basically in a concentration camp.


So he's like, so you have him. So you have. Yeah, you have him. So they cut you a concentration camp. It's very like minimal shot because clearly they it's not a big scene. But you're introduced to Dr. Coosa and his daughter, Ava, very beautiful, by the way. And they're sitting in the camp with other prisoners and they're being told that they're going to go off and go back to the keep.


And it should be noted that that Ian McKellen is wearing old makeup like they have him looking like an old looking Hagana. Sorry, he's going to look as Gandalf.


Yes. So Ian McKellen at that point and I can't remember if it's revealed at that point, but he's like he's like 48 years old. He's supposed to be 48 years old. He looks like he's 88 years old. He can barely move. He's got gloves on his hands because he's always frigidly cold. And his daughter, Ava, you know, she looks like she's just like 20 something. And and he's clearly, like, dying. He's just and you get to you'll figure out very soon why he looks like that.


That's why they took a young actor and put him in old makeup, you know. Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah.


And he's joking like you.


And you're like 48 years old. What the fuck happened to this guy? Jesus.


And the funny thing is he's almost like doing his Gandalf voice just 20 years earlier.


Yes. Yes, exactly. It immediately cuts to GLAC on on the road to Romania on a motorcycle lookin super badass. And he gets to a checkpoint with soldiers and, you know, they ask him where he's going and he says he's going into the pass and they're like, how far into the past? And he says to the keep. And they want to they're looking at his gear on his bike and they want to see the they want to see what's inside the case.


And he says, you know, don't touch that. And right after they go to touch the case and he grabs them and says, don't touch that, his eyes glow bright, like he said, tell this beam of light. And you're like, oh, shit, this guy is supernatural.


And it's and it's like a weird sort of cut to like like Michael Mann didn't I don't think he did the best job because all of a sudden it's like it's like this weird cut in flashes and then all of a sudden the two guards are like one guard is holding another guard back. There's almost like there should have been a fight scene right there. They're about to fight. But I mean, this everything about this movie is choppy. I mean, even in even in like scenes, it's choppy like like not like they cut out complete scenes, which they did, but it feels like they even chopped up the scenes that you're actually seeing.


But I will say what was cool was did you notice that Laken, when he was driving in his the headlight on his motorcycle was purple?


No, I didn't notice that. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, but later but in the other shot, like after this, when he's on the motorcycle again and it's more close up, they just have a regular light on the front. But it's in this one. It was like when it was further away, they made it purple. I was like, okay, cool. But then you didn't do it in the next one. So OK, not cool, but.


All right. Yeah.


Continuity is not the friend of the keep. That's for.


No, no, no, no.


So just let that go right here and there and just let it go.


So you could even say that, that you know, I know that Michael Mann specifically wanted to make this movie feel dreamlike with the look of it and the soundtrack. And I think he said, like, yeah, you know, the cinematography, the location and the soundtrack are all are all like sort of fantastical. But everything that's sort of happening in the dialogue is supposed to be realistic. And he wanted that juxtaposition to create this dreamlike quality. And the irony is, because the movie is so cut up and chopped up, that it actually makes it almost feel more dreamlike because it has almost kind of like dream logic to it where, you know, things just sort of jump and you just sort of go with it.


Yeah, yeah. I think I think its shortcomings actually make it a little more. Well, definitely make it more cultish and and in and help it out in a weird way.


Like it gets a little bit more of a pass because you're like, oh, this is like an artistic, you know, dream trippy adventure. Right? Yeah. So after that happens, we cut we cut back to Dr. Coosa is with Eric, Eric Kemper back at the keep now with his in Couzens there with his daughter or Kozu. Any threat immediately threatens Coosa or Kozu with, you know, figuring out what is going on at the keep and they've got three days or three sending him back to the camp.


And Kozu reads what's on the wall and he says it says, quote, I will be free and I love that. It's very like, again, Prince of Darkness, you know, let the devil out kind of thing. Right. And he it was just hard to make out. But he said it's it's the neglect alphabet.


This language has been dead for over 500 years and which, you know, adds to like whatever whatever wrote this on the wall.


However, this got here was put here by someone who, you know, should be dead or very fucking old.


And yeah. And it's not even it's not really addressed until later when he's sort of talking to the father. It's like right after this scene or whatever, when he's talking to the father at the end, you know, he's like, so did you write this? No. Then who did? And, you know, like, I was kind of. But you'll get to that in a second.


Yeah. Yeah. Because we immediately cut to Ava now with her dad in the keep kind of settling in.


And Ava is asking for firewood because they're forced to stay in this dreary, wet, dark place, which I don't know who would want to stay there at all.


And she also explained like her dad's condition and that if he stays here in this dampness, in this coldness, you know, he'll get gangrene basically on his hands again. I wish there were subtitles because I didn't catch, like, what his condition is. But this is when you find out that he's like, I think it was even something younger, like forty two or something. And he but he just. Yeah. He looks like he's supposed to be like seventy, you know.


And but you also do get Warman in this moment saying like Yeah. You know, we'll, we'll get you some, we'll get you settled in. He's warming is completely, you know, compassionate, you know, for being a commander or soldier, a guy who's, you know, had to kill and everything before. But again, everything that they do in this movie shows you how compassionate he is.


Yeah. Worman is she's Ava is asking Worman for, you know, what they need to, like you said, survive in there. And he's giving them the request. And he says to them, you know, find out what's happening in the keep and I'll get you to Bucharest. Like, I'll get you out of here. I'll I will take you to a safe place if you know, once you figure out what's happening.


So he's doing his good cop, bad cop thing where he's, like, being the good guy, trying to support them. And then Father Finnessey walks in these fucking names.


I'm telling you, man, I know these names are like so all over the place, Father Enescu walks in and he hugs them and he's, you know, he's OK.


He's a Romanian priest. I love this because this this happens in movies.


Sometimes you just to let it go, it's like, you know, like, again, I can't think off the top of my head, but any sort of movie where, like, a guy is supposed to have some sort of accent and he doesn't, you're like, oh, that's an interesting choice. Like he's got a thick New York accent and maybe he's like from South Africa or something.


Father Ask walks and he's like, what fairy tale did you tell them? He's he's supposed to be Romanian.


He's got no he's he sounds American. Yeah.


And then and then Vanessa's kind of like eluding to the fact that he wrote the message on the wall that.


No, no, I don't I didn't get that. He was telling them that he brought them here to to to help get them out of the concentration camp. But at the end of this scene, when he's like we're about to like part ways, you know, he says like a McKellen's.


I didn't do that on the wall.


And then, you know, for an excuse like, no. And then, you know, then it begs the question because they didn't even they sort of hadn't even talked about it. It begs the question of, OK, well, then who the fuck did. Yes, yeah, exactly.


Yeah, they're kind of the father is like wants to get them out of there and get them safe.


And the doctor, you know, doesn't think he. I cannot go. Because of my condition. You're not in trouble or hurt, but are there any that's weird.


They're having this weird exchange because because they're like kind of casually talking and and at the same time, too, they're kind of under the gun, literally and figuratively, like they have to figure out what's going on so they don't get killed.


And then now they're having this, like, discussion about like, you know, Kozu says, you know, you believe in God, Dreier believe and burn.


And then the father's like howzat, like, dude, you could have just asked or you were just there, you know, and that's when you're right. That's when the father reveals that he didn't put the writing on the wall. He he gives he gives Kozu one of his cross and he kisses Eva and hugs them and he leaves after that cut to Ava walking down the hallway and she hears this weird sound, which sounds like a generator. Turns out it is a generator.


Well, it's like the the the sound the there's like this sound that the demon sort of makes whenever he's coming, you know, and they did a coming back and they did like a like a red herring sort of thing where. Yeah, it does sort of sound like a generator. So she sees a generator. But it is the sound that the that the demon makes though. Yeah.


It is the same sound, but it turns out it is just a generator and Ava surrounded by all the German soldiers and Nazis and and once and she's going into their barracks to get food and she gets food and like a couple of the Nazi soldiers or I Ainger and they take off, she's walking back to her dad and to those two Nazis that kind of ran off earlier, grab her and they repair close open and they proceed to start raping her.


Yeah. And they'd have one, like, got punches or.


It's brutal.


It's it's I mean, it's, it's yeah. We've seen like worse rape scenes in movies, but I never I don't ever like rape scenes like at all.


I mean I don't think anyone probably does, but like they always sort of off put me in movies and it's not the most this movie isn't like the most extreme one. But to me, like any rape scene I think is gross, you know, and it just it's it's unsettling.


Yeah. Yeah. And they've painted Ava's character like, you know, you don't you haven't got a lot of insight into who she is just yet, but you have a lot of sympathy for she's she's fucking comes she was in a concentration camp like the Nazis. And the the Jewish experience is the whole thing is horrible. So whenever that shit goes down, you just automatically just want to see these guys destroyed. Well, guess what? Three to one, a weird cloud explodes through and just decimates both Nazis.


And this this scene is another beautiful scene because this cloud rolls in with this weird kind of like odd red electricity vaine thing in the center of it and destroys the Nazis like one of them.


Like like, well, first off, you see that like before they die and moving forward, this is how it kind of kills them. Like it draws like this energy out of your eyeballs and your mouth for like a second. And then the first Nazi's head explodes. And it's a great shot because. Yeah. Did the actor was so close to the other characters in the shot was so close. But then they, they just sort of cut him out is really well done.


It was a very good like effect shot. And then the other Nazi does this like it kind of makes this like internal like head cinching explosion, like his head just doesn't explode. It kind of like it's almost like his bones exploded on the inside, but the skin was still there. So it kind of just goes in groups. I do it.


It's awesome. The deaths, the what the creature does in this movie is really fucking cool, although you don't really get to see it too too much. But when you do, it's awesome.


Yeah. Yeah. In The Creature, his evolution, because he changes quite a bit throughout this thing because he's feeding off of the people he kills, he's feeding off of their evil energy, but he he picks up Ava, this cloud picks up Ava and you start to see I wonder, it looked almost as if it was like cartoon animation, like to give the effect of the fingers look cartoonish. The the images of what the monster is behind the clouds are kind of cartoonish.


And as it's bringing, Ava brings Ava to her father, who's doing work.


And he's like over. And then.


And then you we're. What have you done, Dr. Brewster?


Ha, ha, so so after that happens, the monster speaks to the doctor and he says, you know, who are you? And, you know, why are you here? And I need you. I need an ally.


And because the doctor, like, I'm working with them and he's like, you know, I need I need an ally. But you collaborate.


And it's creepy because what I love about this is is the monster is talking to him. He kind of has a normal humanistic voice, which I actually like even more. It's like the devil in in legend, where it's just a kind of a natural voice.


And and I'm completely with you one hundred percent. And I love the way the creature looked in this form is like probably my favorite version of the creature. But I'm with you. There's something too unsettling about the fact that it has just a normal voice.


But but I did like how in the culture are you're not a collaborator.


And I felt like I just I don't know. I felt like that was like a a phrase that he had to use because it was such like a thing at the time, like you Nazi collaborators or whatever. You know, he specifically had to say, you know, I'm not a collaborator with the creature, but. Yeah, but then the creature places his his electricity hand on him.


Yeah. Like he goes to like choke him and then like shocks him. And, you know, you're kind of freaked out by that because he after he does that, the monster leaves you. You're like, why did he kill him, is he dead? What's going on? And you cut immediately to Glucan, who's on his motorcycle in the forest with with no purple light.


This is the one where you come over there like. Oh, yeah, because it's more of a close up shot of the front of the motorcycle and they just have a regular light on there. And it's like, oh, come on, guys, keep it consistent.


And I and I guess they probably threw that scene in there just to show that he's getting he's still on the road. Yeah. Yeah. Because immediately you cut back to Ava awaking and then her dad is out. He's the doctor is in in the wheelchair. He looks like asleep or dead. And then he awakes and as he awakes he looks like ten times younger.




He looks like an Ian McKellen. Right.


And he's got he doesn't have his gloves on anymore. He's got his normal hands and he puts them on his face and and he says, I, I feel warm. Like suddenly his voice has changed, you know, this youthful voice. And he says it carried you here. He was a dream. And he's like, it can smash the Nazis.


Like, he gets really excited because because his daughters, like, you know, it's a monster. And it's like, no, this is what we need. This is what we need to to kill them all. Yeah.


He says it's like this creature's like a hammer. They can just basically point him and, you know, have him do his thing. And that's going to kind of be the theme is like, do you do you do you use one evil to to destroy another evil? You know? And I'm sure there was much more of those themes in the original cut of the film.


Yeah, I love that. It is exactly the theme. It's like, do you do you stoop down to the level of the the the monster to defeat the monster? No, you shouldn't. And this and then this is when Warren walks in and he's like, you know, we got to we got to get you out of here. We we've got to send you to Ava. He says to Ava, we've got to send you away. And then the camper walks in and he's like, you know, you're going to you're going to stay here and you've got to finish.


You've got two more two more days or whatever.


And they manipulate Kemper into saying, now, Ava has got to go like they they just have this exchange where they're like, well, no, you know, she should get out of here because she's she's ruining this for our doctor.


And that's what he's like. Yeah, fine. Yeah. Ava, you have to leave now.


And he sends her out of the keep which is but they kind of but like like not leave like the town. Like he she needs to stay in the town but just not. Yes. The actual keep you know, and I will find it.


I thought it was funny that no one noticed that Coosa is as young now, although I know that he was kind of like sitting in the shadows. And I think that's what they're trying to go for. But, man, they needed more shadows because I would have walked right in and been like, why are you young now? Excuse me? Why are you young, white? And essentially it's not just are you young?


It's not just but it went from her to. Yeah, I've got I know you need me to work on this project and I'm going to help you with this like suddenly a.


Voice totally changes, right? Yeah, so so Worman walks out the you know, the doctors saying to Ava, you know, Kozu saying to his daughter, he's like, you know, you didn't believe you need to leave this village for me.


You need to get out. And she leaves to go to the inn. And Wurman stays with the doctor and he sees a photo on the doctor's like kind of desk where his work area and he's like, this is he's like, who is this? And he says, it's my son. And he died five years ago on the side of antifascists.


Yes. Fighting the Germans. Yeah, the antifascist. Yeah.




And then Clough's reveals that he would he probably would have fought alongside him because she was antifascist as well.


Right. And so that kind of solidifies that that woman is not a Nazi. He just you know, he's just he's a soldier that that lost you know, he was on the losing side in the the Germans just absorbed, you know, him into the into their fold. But, yeah, he he says right there, you know, he wasn't there. He wasn't at that battle. He but he said if I were, I would have been on the same side as your son.


And I think that, you know, that right there solidifies their bond. It solidifies we don't have to question Warman at all. We know he's quote unquote one of the good guys.


Yeah. And at that point, the doctor gives Morman the cross that the father had given him earlier. And he says that he may need it. And he says to Wurman, you know, you're a humane man. And and at that point, that's when Clough's goes to help Eva.


Yeah. And yes. And I was going to say because because one, I liked how how he gave them the cross, you know, because because warmings like, why do you, a Jewish man, have a cross? And Coosa says a charmayne man gave it to me. And now I want you to have it because you're a humane man and then, you know, he takes it, which I was like, OK, that's cool. And then I love I don't know why, but there's a little moment.


But like, you know, Ava's now done packing everything and Clough's grabs. He's the one takes her suitcase. And I was like, I love that. It's just he's the gentleman. He is he's the good guy here, you know, and he just happens to be on, you know, the bad guys team, unfortunately.


Yeah. And and after he walks out with Eva and the doctor stands up from his chair because now he's like, you realize, oh, he's much stronger.


He's getting stronger. He may not he not only does he look younger, but he's also turning into like a man's man and he stands up and then there's a fist.


Yeah, I was going to say that there's a weird shot of, like, him making the fist and then pulling it down, like guys like if everyone else is like playing this movie on like a seven. Ian McKellen's on a ten. He is. Yeah. I don't know. I say I would honestly say he's probably overreacting in this movie. I think he's he's toned it down since probably. But he, he's shooting for the moon and this one.


Yeah. He's definitely overacting is is a fair assessment because it is way over the top and I get it, he's like blasted with this bolt of energy.


So he's kind of become like this. He's he's just getting his virility back, right? Yeah. After that, you're AVOs leaving the key and she enters the village and she enters the in the innkeeper. She tells the innkeeper she can't pay and the innkeeper's like it's OK. He's like, you know, your father has done a lot for me and you can stay here. And he brings Ava into her room and they enter the room and glucan is in the room already looking out the window of the room that she's supposed to stay in.


Yeah, he's already there.


And even the innkeeper, it's like, what are you doing here type of thing? Yeah, this is really funny because the innkeeper so Zankou, I was like, yeah, what are you doing here? Basically. And Interlaken doesn't even acknowledge him. He just says, is this is this the only room that overlooks the keep? And the innkeeper says it is. And then the innkeeper like looks at Eva, kind of shrugs and just walks off like I guess you're sharing this room with him, like, wait, wait, wait.


So I guess that's I guess that's what's happening to you.


Eva is so bizarre.


And then Laken walks over, you know, walks up to Avon. He asks, where will she go? And she says back into the keep. And that the soldiers are keeping her dad in there. And she says, I'm going to I'm going to wait right here for my father. And and then they're having this exchange.


It's a really cool moment because she's he's like right in her. And she's kind of looking at him very lovingly and then behind her, behind Laken, is a mirror. She looks and you see into the mirror that you can see her reflection, but you can't see blackens, which is very creepy.


And it was really cool. Like it was not done like with like effects. It was done with, like, different actors. So so like you had somebody playing Ava was like back of her head, you know, looking at in while the real actress who played Ava was in the in the mirror. It's like it's like how they did, you know, like how they do like old school, like mirror shots when there's no actual mirror there, it's just actually someone standing there.


But it's really cool, really good shot and really neat. I liked it a lot. I wish, I wish I knew or understood more about glucan. But maybe at the same time, not knowing is also pretty cool too, honestly. Yeah, I'll tell you, I'll say this like I have no problem not knowing what Glikson story is of everything that I want fleshed out in this movie. I don't need that fleshed out. I'm just assuming he's an angel.


He's something a guardian, whatever. But I don't really honestly need him fleshed out.


I think he's cool that he's there, though. Yeah. Again, I think this goes back to the whole dreamlike quality of this movie where you just I think it gets a pass on many levels because it's such a beautifully it's so beautifully kind of it's like the just the all the elements that make it so dreamlike, kind of iRace a lot of the major flaws. And that is a flawed as in this. There's another flaw coming up in a minute, because right after that happens, Ava wakes up from bed and she's sleeping and she looks at the wall where the mirror was and the mirror has been taken off the wall, which is interesting.


I like that. And then and then she looks over to the side, in the room, on the table. And then the long cases there, the long wooden case that GLAC has taken with him. And immediately it cuts to Glapion and Ava on a mountain.


Yeah, yeah.


Chilling on a mountaintop, having a romantic moment and then which segues right into a sex scene.


And it's like, yeah, yeah, no, we're good. We're getting there because because, you know, Ava Interlaken around on the mountain and then she says, you know, why are you here? And Glik and just kisses her and then it cuts to the sex scene. Yeah. The weirdest sex scene I've ever seen.


Well yeah. So, so Scottoline is like you said he he doesn't, he's got a very old face and he's got a very like grizzled, angry face.


And the entire time they're they're having their lovemaking session, he's got this like angry look on his face the entire time.


I'm like, I don't know if I want my person looking at me like that.


And, you know, then she's like very she's into it. Actually, I think it's very like tasteful kind of sexy scene.


In a way it is. But the most interesting or weird because like their system, they are like they're doing like the sitting sex. Like we're we're both sort of like like sitting criss cross applesauce. But like, you know, she's on his desk and like in there she's like driving around and he's like holding her hands until they eventually make, like, this cross thing, like with her with his arm sticking straight out. It's like it's just a weird form of lovemaking.


But I will say this guy, Glenn, he had some guns on him, man. He got some big ass arms.


Well, first of all, you said a very interesting something very interesting there. He said they were they were putting their arms out like a cross. And it makes me wonder, you know.


I know. I know. I know that, like, of all the weirdness of the sex like that was on purpose. There's a purpose to that. And yeah, it's it's very yeah, it's it's symbolism. It's very symbolism. And there's also a purpose. And Ava's giant mirkin, I guess, to that she has as well.


I don't think that is a mirkin, dude. I think that was the real deal. Holyfield. I don't think it was either, but I think that was the real deal.


Maybe there's your bad moment.


So and if you guys don't know what American is, Google enjoy. Yes. Yeah. Go ahead. Enjoy yourself.


From from there. From there. Beautiful love making artistic lovemaking scene cuts to them in bed. And Ava says, you know, where do you come from? And Laken says, I'm a traveler. And I again, miss some of this. But she and she says, from where? And he says everywhere, go to sleep and dream.


And he touches like her temple and she just immediately falls asleep.


So, yeah, it's really cool, you know, actually, it's really cool. It really is. But it does beg the question of does she actually have free will in this sexual escapade here or. Also being used, you know, but what? That's a good point. Yeah, he's the good guy. I mean, I don't think it's not supposed to come off that way. But when you actually think about it, it kind of makes you think, yeah, yeah.


It's really it is really interesting. And now you cut back to the key rate after that and now the doctor is meeting the monster face to face.


OK, so first off, I love how the shot starts with, like, the doctor Coosa looking like sort of around the corner type of thing. He's in his room, but the creatures behind him and the creature just reaches out his arm. But Coosa turns around and rightfully so, is terrified. But I just thought, it's funny that if I were the monster, I'd be like, Oh, sorry, buddy. I didn't mean to scare you like that.


Really, I did. Oh, sorry about that.


I'm just a giant like eight foot tall monster, which he is. He's like eight feet tall.


It's it's so cool looking, by the way. It must be in the book, but because they never name him in the movie. But the character the monster's name is Malazan.


Yeah, I saw that. I saw that. Yeah. And I was like, that's kind of that's cool.


It's kind of like that guy got one of those old old names, you know, I like it, but it's also it's I'm sure it's got to be in the book too. But like, what's up with his trapezoids? Like, is that with the neck muscles? Are your traps where you got the. Yeah, dude.


I mean, our boy Scotty, you know, Scott Glenn later on the movie has the same traps and like Jesus they've been obviously they skipped leg day and went for Nick Day which is the next day.


Yeah. Now day. And I got to say, I mean ultimately, like every version of the monster that you see, I like less like meaning I like to smoke one the best. I like this one the second best. It's like he has no skin and he just has like veins and sinew. And then the last one just it kind of looks like a Power Ranger, unfortunately.


But I did I did read that the that the special effects supervisor for this film passed away like two weeks into post-production. So like everything that he sort of in the movie is actually dedicated to him in the credits. And I forgot his name and I apologize for that. But he passed away, like right away into post-production. So essentially, I guess the team that was working under him had to just sort of like fill in for him. But it's like, you know, it's like if Rick Baker passed away right during the middle of like, he he was the guy.


He was the guy. Everyone else was there to help him. And now all of his assistants had to become the person that was doing it. So I do think it also the special effects suffered from that as well.


Yeah, I agree. I agree. Like, he looks cooler earlier on in the movie.


I wouldn't say he's a Power Ranger quality because at the time 83, when this came out, I'd be like, well, this is way different than anything I've ever seen.


Like, it doesn't look, if you take yourself back to 1983, it doesn't look like anything I've ever seen at that time since then for sure. Looks like every Tamagotchi got to catch them all. Pokemon shit.


The Japanese like show where, you know, they have whatever.


But but that being said, I still kind of dug the way he looks with his giant traps. And and it's cool because the monster says that the doctor, he's like, you have death all around you.


And the doctors like you sense the energy from the death camps and and the monsters like, oh, I will destroy them.


I will consume their lives.


Oh, but but but right before he said that he goes, who is killing my people? So so my question is, is, is the monster like is he is he Jewish? Is he like a Jewish demon type of like or is he Romanian like you know, I mean because he does say who is killing my people? So I was wondering like what that monster was referring to as his people.


Well, I wonder if he's just trying to manipulate. He can get into the mind of he knows he can use the doctor to get him out because he needs the doctor to get him out. And so he's manipulating them. I think on one hand, initially, I'm like, oh, he's a good guy because that's what that's what the doctor believes.


He feels like he's doing the right thing. And this monster is actually a good monster. But on the other side, I think, no, he's just manipulating the doctor to get what he wants so he can take over the world and so he can go in your thoughts. He can he can do anything. He just he he's all encompassing. He's the devil and the devil knows. All right. The devil knows your secrets. The devil knows everything.


I think that's what he is. That's what I think. Yeah.


OK, look, I don't know.


I mean, yeah, no, I'm, I'm with you. I kind of actually lean towards the fact that maybe he and they said the inspiration for the story also was from the Gollum, the you know, the book, the Gollum or the movie The Guardian or whatever.


I kind of I believe that he is somehow connected maybe to the Roman Romanian people or the Jewish people or something, but the thing is like I think if you did let him go, he would have done what he wanted to do, but he just wouldn't stop there. He would have just kept going. You know, like type of thing. Yeah. And again, that's just like that's kind of like splitting hairs. It's it's moot regardless, because it's not a good entity.


Regardless. It's a bad entity. Yeah.


Yeah. And and he reveals that the only way for him to get out of the key is by having something removed from the from the keep an object, the origin of his power. And it must be kept safe from the people here and anyone who may come here and the doctor must remove it for him. And you know, the doctor agrees.


And, you know, you asked the doctor to carry the object and the doctor said, yes, we're sorry, we're wrong.


There are no real cuts to the father Francheska at the keep and the soldiers are all freaked out. He goes to check on the doctor and the doctor says he can't leave yet. There's a power here. And the father's like, well, there's this power and God and you, he can't see.


The father said that the father freaks the fuck out at this point. Like, I didn't understand this completely immediately.


He's like, there is no sorry, sorry. That's my in McCullin voice.


He's like, there is no power other than God and Jesus, you know? I mean, like total goes into the full on, you know, rantings of a of a zealot type of thing.


You know, there's going to burn in hell. Burn in hell.


Yeah. It's really it's really weird. I feel like maybe he's almost under the influence of something. But there's also this this thread, this theme here of of of the the father believing in a higher power and divine, whereas Ian Macfarlane's character, Coosa, believes in the evils of men. And then the fathers, like I was right this entire time, I was the one that was right. And you must feel like there should be like wind blowing in his face.


Like, he's just. Yeah, he oh, he just went off the fucking deep end, like, instantaneously, immediately.


Like I mean, it's definitely disjointed.


It speaks to some something some sort of line of dialogue happened before that or a scene that the father was in and had to explain that because it is so disjointed.


It's so like, wait, it's a 180 from this kind of lovable, supportive guy to suddenly he's like, yeah, you know, just spinning his head around doesn't make any sense at all.


But it does lead to this bizarre scene right after because the blitz takes off. Ava goes to Ghost or the father, Ava goes to the church, but as she does, she walks in and he's got blood all over his face, eyes like he has blood in his mouth.


Well, yeah, he's sacrificing the dog that he's had the entire time.


And he turns around and he's got blood in his face, but his eyes are red. They're red, like like horror express red.


They're not like bloodshot. They're not like like blood in his eyes, they're fucking red. And I'm like, am I even Meira? Because my room and I watch this together the first time and I didn't even sort of notice it. And she was like, what was up with the precise? And I was like, oh, I kind of didn't even see that the first time. So the second time I watched it, I really paid attention to that scene.


What the fuck was going on, you know, like that. I feel like there's so and there's no like I feel like we know that there's like two more hours that we haven't seen. So there's something else happening with his character that was completely cut out. And all we're seeing is like these little remnants of it.


Yeah, something something was cut out clear. This is this is one of the first more obvious moments in the movie where you're like, yeah, they they they cut out a chunk of stuff because this is important.


That being said, it's a really creepy, creepy moment because you're just like us.


It's really gross. And after that, Ava goes to get her dad out of the key. And the dads like, you know, I can't leave yet, but she still gets them out into the village and out of nowhere Glapion walks out while like while they're kind of having an argument and and he says, what's in the keep is spreading in the village. Kind of that's what's supposed to explain what happened to the father, I guess.


OK, earlier that.


Yeah, I guess what happened, it's I guess like I guess maybe there was probably scenes of the villagers having their moments. Maybe they're all going crazy because they're getting infected by the madness of the creature. But that was all completely cut out except for the father's part of it, you know, all all cut out.


And I guess for me, it gets a pass because you're like, clearly this guy chopped. There's a scene that explains it. We'll never see it.


So it is what it is right now. Yeah. And then I love this moment because this is when this is when Kozu says to Glik and he's like, well, what do you know? Like really just, you know, intense and.


That's when GLAC and looks at Ava's dad and says, well, I know you gave yourself to him and agreed to carry the talisman out, it's what keeps him inside. And if you carry that out, he'll be released. And it's so great because, you know, he's the source of his power. And then he says, you know, as he's describing what what what the monster is, he's like he he sums it up by saying, you know, he's the same as what's worse in the world.


And I love that because it's like he's the devil. He's the devil. Mm hmm. That's to me, that's that's what that's what it said to me. And Ava, Ava wants to go. She wants to get out of there. She wants to escape. And Aiken says to the doctor, you know, don't take out the talisman. And then the Nazi shows up and the doctor tells, you know, Eric to arrest Galchen. And certainly that's that's the moment when Eric notices that he's healthier, right, and then it's revealed like the doctor is turning, like he wants to stay at the keep and but he's but he's now a part of the problem.


He's not no longer part of the solution, right?


Mm hmm. Yeah. It's a really weird moment. It's again, it's a disjointed moment because Ava confronts Glapion and she's like, you know, you're a part of this. And because because Clay Aiken says you can't leave. He's got to protect the keep and GLAC and reveals that the talisman is his. It's his to it's his talisman. And he's and he's guarding the key. But now. He, quote unquote, is being released and then she's like upset, like she's like, why did you why did you come to me to be my lover, you know?


And I think she said something like to dream, questionmark. And then he says to touch. And then right when he's about to, he whisper something to her and then the Nazis bust in to arrest him. But like I could not for the life of me figure out what he whispered to her. And I you asked me, right, bro, can you please try to figure that out? And I turned my TV up to 60 when I normally listen to that on volume 20, I turned it up to 60.


Could not decipher what he was saying. The only thing I could decipher was she said to be my lover, to dream, and then he says to touch. And then something about like, that's the only thing we can do in this world, something like that. I don't know. I don't it's fucking it was just like I'm king of New York, where we were actually watching it with subtitles. And there's a shot where he whispers, he says something to one.


Anyways, even the subtitles didn't get it.


And I was like, what the hell? But here we didn't have subtitles. So I don't know what Glapion said to her, but she was mad that, you know, she's like, why did you use me?


Essentially, yeah, I love that because yeah, you're right. Both of us, you and I both probably rewound the scene about twenty times and.


Yeah, what I picked up was, you know, why, yeah, why did you come to me and I wanted to touch you. I wanted to touch you. And then I wrote down, it's only worth my left toe. Is that what you said?


I knew I was going to write down what I thought it said. And it was something also like, really weird. Like the world is only here for touching, like questionmark. Is that right? What does that mean? And then this is like I'm only here for my left toe what it was.


And then I wrote, it's the only world I keep that it's the only world I know. It's the only world I kept hope. It's the only world that that keeps going.


I don't know something to the fact that.


It's my left toe is what I'm going to go. So there's something to the effect of my left, to my left and you're right, that's when the Nazis burst in.


It's a very disjointed scene because. This moment that Ava has earlier with her dad, you know, the dad leaves to go back into the keep and that and that's when that's when he sees, you know, Eric, the main Nazi and Kemper. And, you know, you reveal like, oh, is he going to turn on them?


Is like he is he truly an evil, bad guy? And then so and gets arrested by the Nazis. He tells Ava to stay, Ava runs out. And this I love this scene because he runs out and the Nazis are marching Laken towards the keep, and as they get from the village to the keep, there's like a bridge, you know, with a little bit of a moat.


It's not huge. But, you know, it's it's it's there. It's there. Yeah. And it's pretty. It's deep enough and and it's deep enough because Glikson throws one of the Nazis.


And when I say he throws one of the Nazis with one arm, he chucks this guy like you would throw a stone, a small stone into the water.


He launches this dude over the side.


And Ramanan, that that Nazi went straight to hell.


He went as he should. And as after that happens, the Nazis just unload on Garlock and just start shooting the shit out of them.


And as they do, he is bleeding what looks like antifreeze from a car. It's like glowing green ooze. Ava's freaking out. She's crying Galatians on the ledge. He falls over the over the bridge. But now he's on the ledge, like down below the bridge. But he's still alive.


Yeah, but it was cool because like like he was like you would try he was trying to rush the Nazis, but like the bullets, they're not really killing him, but they are like pushing him, you know. So he's like trying to like attack. But they're like they're hitting him and they just kind of like essentially the bullets push him off the ledge. But I liked that. I liked how the bullets weren't really doing the damage, although, you know, they are doing damage.


But it was more like the kinetic energy of the bullet is what knocked him out.


Yeah, yeah. It's I mean, it's it's it's a killer motion because you're like, oh, wait a minute, did you just kill off?


It's like Steven Seagal, an executive decision. You killed him off in 15 minutes. What the hell happened here? I feel like you've made that reference before.


Multiple times. Oh, and I will make it again. I will make it again. I love that movie. John Leguizamo and Russell.


Hey, everybody, Corey here. I just want to let you know that we'll be right back after these short messages. Hello, everybody, I'm Adam.


I'm John, and every week we are giving you a blast from our past, we are the podcast that brings you full on movie breakdowns, TV show reviews, our reviews top tens and more, all from the things of our nostalgic past.


So please join us every single week on the blast from our Past podcast. You can find us on Spotify, Stitcher, Apple podcasts. However you listen to podcast, you can find us. And we would love to have you take a trip with us to the land of nostalgia. Hey, everybody, welcome to Talking Back, the podcast where we like to chat about past achievements in movies, comics, video games and more.


I'm your host, Tim, and with me today in studio is co-host. Hey. Hey, Tim.


This isn't a full episode. This is actually just an add. All you have to do is tell everyone that our podcast come out on Mondays and they can find us on their favorite podcast, or if they're into movies, comics or video games, they should definitely check us out.


Oh, well, then, thanks everybody for listening.


And we'll catch you next time. All. La, la, la, la. I'm Adam and I'm Corey, and we are the hosts of Cartwright, a Seinfeld podcast, we are breaking down every single episode of Seinfeld as we watch it, reliving this amazing show.


That's right. It's a trip down memory lane for all of us 90's kids out there. You can find Cartwright, a Seinfeld podcast on iTunes, Spotify Pod being an Patreon, la la la.


And now back to the show. So after that happens, you cut to Worman and Kamper and Mormans like, you know why it's all the shooting going on and in clavicles walks off to check on it. And and and Kemper's yelling at him. And then there's loud noises going on outside and the soldiers are now scared. And it cuts back to this is where Worman and Kamper have their big kind of showdown, arguing with each other about, you know, why they're there, why the Nazis are not courageous.


You know, Worman is like, you know, he's he's he's the he's the German soldier who's, like, seen the light. And he's saying, you know, Nazis are not courageous. And all we are who we are is all coming out here in the keep. And they're just having like a really tense back and forth. I feel like this scene was probably added after the after the effect, after the fact, because it doesn't really give a lot to what's going on in the keep.


It just gives more to the explanation of why we hate Nazis, why Worman is a more sympathetic character than the other German soldiers in the movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


I mean, I like it. I like the exchange. You know, it's also because, you know, it's like it's it's kind of neat to see, like inside of of the German army like this and see characters that are sympathetic, you know. And it's almost like if we watched, you know, something in the Star Wars universe where you see, like, you know, the Empire and you see some of the characters, you know, not everyone's evil.


You know, like some people are just doing their job.


And, of course, you know, you could say that that that's bad, too. But, yeah, it's interesting. And and we all know that, you know, they had this discussion in clerks completely. So it's not new. It's not new topics here.


Yeah. And I love this exchange, too, because just for the one quote which I'll read, it's it's where Workmans giving it to him and he's like, you know, what truth do you see? What are you discovering about yourself, Kamper? I murder all these people. Therefore I must be powerful and you smash them down only because that raises you up. It's a psychotic fantasy to escape the weakness and disease you sense in the core of your soul.


You have scooped the most diseased psyches of the German gutta out of the German gutter. You have released the foulness that dwells in all men's minds. You have infected millions with your twisted fantasies and from the millions of disease mentalities that worship your twisted cross. What monstrosity has been released in this keep? Who are you meeting Kamper in this granite corridors of the Keep Yourself.


And it's such a cool like moment because you're like, yeah, the the monster is the devil and it's just the way that it is, you know, it's pretty plain to me anyways. Yeah. Right after that.


And I feel like this I feel like this conversation like is what the movie was originally supposed to be about, which is, you know, almost like the shadow. Like what? Evil lurks in the hearts of men type of thing. And the creature is supposed to be like a representation of of the evil that's in Kemper's Eric's heart. Everything that he's saying, I think, is what we were supposed to see. And maybe giving validity to what you're saying of it feels like it was a it was shot later is maybe once they saw that, you know, the cut that they have of the film didn't really convey this idea.


They were like, we need to go and add this dialogue in there to really if it felt like they were ham fifteen, like what the point of this movie was right here. Oh, no. But while doing it, both actors are doing a spectacular job. But it's definitely like dialogue that's like put there for a purpose to convey an idea.


Yeah. Let's not let's not forget the fact that these are two phenomenal actors. So they they're doing their best with a with a with a scene that, you know, could have been cut out. But they left it in and it's relevant. It's it still makes sense. It's all good. Yeah. And what happens next is it's kind of inevitable, but Worman gets shot by Kemper in the back. Yeah. And like a like a bitch and in Kemper steals the cross of Mormon that was given to him by the doctor and starts to leave the keep and then she starts to leave the keep the carnage that they heard outside earlier in the screaming going on.


You see the results of this Nazi soldiers burned to a crisp with the whites of their eyes still showing. And it's it's really terrifying and very killer to watch, just like the destruction that this monster has taken upon because he doesn't care.


He just wants to destroy. Everybody and I love this man, I love this carnage again, there's no blood, there's no blood at all.


It's just like burnt erupted bodies that are mangled and melting.


And you can't tell because everything is just charred and black.


You can't tell, like, what's a piece of metal, what it's like bone, what's, you know, a gun. It's it's really cool. I love it. I, you know, like, it was a cool idea to not make this movie bloody, you know. Do you know what I mean? Like, it was really, really neat. It gives it a very unique visual style to it.


Yeah. If they added blood to this, it would have a different effect. In my opinion. It would not. It would take away from the dreamlike quality that it is. And as this carnage has unfolded and warm and sorry, Kemper sees the aftermath, the monster walks out and the monster towers towers over Worman like Predator to Schwarzenegger kind of thing.


It's like eight feet fucking tall and and mormans like, what are you what are you and the monsters, you know, where am I from.


I'm from you. And he kills Eric, vaporizes them, but as he does, Eric Mormans screams like like a little bitch, you know, he lets out this little whale. It's actually great because it's like that's what you want, because that's what you kind of envision with Nazis. You're like, you know, they're supposed to get their comeuppance and, like, really be terrified of dying. And that's the moment that I realized when he says I come from you, that's like he is the devil incarnate.




So from there. Cut to doctor.


The doc is now in what I called the monolith, the cave deep pit, and he's searching for the talisman and he and he gets he he gets it and and he's going and he's climbing out of the cave with this talisman, which looks like a flashlight.


But it's, you know, looking in a weird way, it's like the bottom half of a sawed handle with a light from it.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like whatever a job. Yeah, yeah.


It's whatever does the job does the job right after that you see that the Glapion has woken up or he starts, he's starting to get back up and he's, he's trying to get out from the pit that he's fallen into, the doctor's trying to escape and it's kind of cutting back and forth. The doctors are almost out.


Is this when he's like running down the hall and like that? Oh, I love the Scream song is playing so good.


Oh, God. Yeah. So, like, so picture this. McKellen, who now looks, you know, like like forty eight with grey hair. He's running down the hallway of this deep hole and the nickel crosses that are that line the walls of the hall are lighting up as he's running down the hall, almost like a warning sign like you know. Yeah don't leave, don't leave. Right.


And he's running in like slow motion with like this awesome tangerine dream song playing. It's it's so good. Like, again, you're making this like like World War to Nazi horror movie. And yet you like Michael Mann decides to like film this in slow motion and add this Cynthy dream like soundtrack to it. And it just your mind is like, what am I watching?


This is beautiful. This is amazing. You know, I just like, wow, there's these awesome moments, these awesome, awesome moments.


Like this is what is what the keep is really all about.


These moments for me are what make this movie watch very watchable. Yes.


Just because, again, it's just visually you're just like, oh my God, it would have been just a typical typical war movie if they hadn't added all this stuff in.


But this is what elevates it to the next level. And at that point now Ava is at the entrance of the key and. And you now see cut to Glikson, opening up the case, he's obviously made it out from the pit. He's opening up the case from the end of and it's this long light staff, which is very kind of like.


What do you call that when when when something like you expected it to be really a huge reveal under underwhelming, you're like, OK, it's a big light stick.


And, you know, again, it does a job, does a job. But at this point, he picks up the light stick, you see, and they cut to Lincoln's face and he's joked he's got that massive neck and you're like, oh, shit.


Yeah, he's got like a prosthetic thing on his on his trapezoids so that it look or whatever those neck muscles are. So he looks kind of like and I get it, it's like a visual cue that he's connected to the creature in some way, shape or form. But he also has some kind of prosthetic on his eyebrow. So he has like no eyebrows or something.


It's really it's cool, but it's weird. It's definitely weird. And I mean, Scott Glenn is already a unique looking person. So these little enhancements made him even more interesting looking.


Yeah, it's cool. It's it's different because you've never I guarantee you never seen Scott Glenn in a role like this before and maybe ever after.


Yeah. You know, and it's pretty it's just it's very unique. You cut back to the doc and he shows Ava, his daughter, the talisman, and Ava tells him to take it back. And then the monster appears in the monster. You know, he's yelling at he's yelling at the doctor to kill her.


And that's what I wrote. I wrote. Yeah, go. I go. You done fucked up right there because, like, right when he tells her the Coosa to kill his daughter, that's when that's when Ian McKellen is like, oh, wait a minute, you know, and I and I do love what what what Kruse's says, you know, when he starts to actually now confront the creature, he's like, you know, like like, you know, if this is your talisman, you know, then you should be able to leave.


He's like, what do I need to prove to you? He's like, I love this. He goes, you need to prove to me, you know, like like what you're worth is to the to the monster, you know, type of thing he's like. And then he puts it together. He's like, if this isn't yours, then this is a prison. Right. Like like he puts it together. I love that.


I loved how he stood up to him and he I loved how he was like, you need to prove yourself to me, mother fucker.


And of course it was more like right there.


Well, I want to I want to go I want to go back a little bit because he after after the monster says, you know, kill her. He strokes his daughter's face. And it reminded me I'm like, oh, that's what Glapion did right after they boned. That's kind of creepy.


Well, OK, I want to go back to the entire movie. And there were about five scenes where I thought Ian McKellen was going to make out with Ava. Now, the the irony is that that there should be no sexual chemistry between them because because Colin's gay. But like like it was like it was weird because I was like, they have weird sexual chemistry that I don't understand. Like, first off, you're supposed to be father and daughter.


And second off, you know, we know what Ian McAllen's preference is. So it's like I was like, this is weird. And then. Yeah, and again, he strokes her face and they're like, sexually, lovingly. It's really weird.


It's very weird. It's very, very weird. And you're right, the dialogue exchange that he has with the monster is awesome. It was a little distracting to me because McKellen at this point, his voice has completely changed. He now sounds American at this point.


So instead of Roman, he's like, who are you that I have to prove myself by killing my job?


There was just a few moments where it's almost like.


Like it was an outtake and they left it in like he could have had a little bit just it's like he dropped the accent. You'll see if you watch it again. It's just it just kind of jarring to me.


But you're right. Like, that whole exchange is so great when he reveals like that he's finally come to Jesus and he's realized what he should be doing. And that's when the monster blasts him.


And right after he blasts him, he turns back to his old self again.


He's he's he's all crippled and withered and looking worse for the wear.


The talisman is now on the ground. Ava sees it. And then and grabs the talisman and he hooks it to his staff and now has turned it into like this big giant blaster, which is so cool. And when he does, he blasts all the crosses. And there's this really. Oh, that was the thing. When he when he hooks it up to his staff and he goes to shoot the monster, they show his eyes and his eyes.


He has these killer contacts that are like grids on on his eyes.


They're so cool. It's like a millisecond. You just you got to pause it to see it.


I noticed that. And it's like it's like, you know, design choice. You're like first offering him purple contacts and then guys wait for it later. He's going to have a grid on his eyes.


And, you know, like you just hear that pitch, you know, in the preproduction meeting. But yeah, dude, it's really weird. It's like almost like a like a Tron grid, like like like it's like, you know, like I'm not not organic. It's, you know, straight lines, you know, crosshatch type of thing. Really interesting. No idea why they would even like for the nanosecond that you see it, why did they even bother taking the time to create those contacts?


Whereas like, honestly, you could have just showed a close up of his purple eyes, like he already had weird eyes, but ultimately it was still cool, like, you know, like, I'm glad they did it. Yeah.


I mean, a lot of these things are like, why do they do that? Why do this? Why do they do this? Why did they do that? At the end of the day, it looks fucking cool and this is an artistic film like I love it, man.


Everything about this, I'm just like, I'm in, I'm in, I'm sold, I'm sold on this because he he and he and he blasts out this the with his with his sword blaster now that he has and he yells to avoid, you know, take your dad and get out and he stalks the monster because the monster is now trying to retreat and they do a close up of his neck again and he's all yoked out just like the monster is.


So now you're realizing, oh, are they one in the same? Is that heaven and hell is the.


Yeah, like God. Right. Or like, you know, an angel and demon or something, you know, like there's some there's some connection between the two are you know, are they like it's always like that and sort of like the angel demon stuff, like they're sort of brothers, you know, like what happens to one will happen to the other one. If you kill one, the other one's going to die with it type of thing. Yeah.


It's all it goes back to like Greek mythology and shit like that. You know, they're all related and connected in some weird way. But I just wrote down he blasts the monster back to kingdom come just just just decimates him.


Then he drops the blaster. And he's looking all rough and he turns around and he reaches out like almost like he wants to connect with Ava, like he does truly love her. That's what I got out of that moment, was like, no, he has he honestly does feel this connection with Ava. Yeah. And and Ava screaming out, but he gets sucked into the keep being.


It's like when he blasts the monster, even though the monster went in the hole, like, like a bunch of air was like sucking in. So like he's as he's reaching out to Ava, like, you know, like light is coming from behind him and air is just like blowing past him. So like you can tell that he's using, like, all of his strength to kind of like hold his ground, you know.


Yeah. And in the same the same air that sucked the Nazis in earlier in the beginning of the movie is what is sucking Glapion into the keep and sucks him into the keep. Keep his. Now, basically there's still some smoke dissipating, but it but the keep is now sealed again. Ava is with her father and the villagers all start coming out and the father of Enescu comes out like nothing ever happened.


Like know, a weird dog meltdown like like he never killed his dog and had red eyes. He yeah.


He comes out like with this loving kind of energy about him when you're like, oh yeah. They they. Probably should either cut that scene or add just a little bit more depth to what was going on there, but they didn't and this is the only copy or print we're ever going to see this movie. So we're kind of fucked in that way. So we just got to deal with it.


And after that happens, I love this. It's very Fawlty esque to me because, you know, they're helping Ava and her dad up to go back into the village. And Ava turns around one last time to look at the key and it just ends on her face. And the movie is over, a Michael Mann film and credits and credits.


Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Martin Yeah. The movie is a lot to digest. I I'll just say it. I mean, I enjoyed my experience with it. I loved the soundtrack. I loved the cinematography. I loved the the dreamlike quality to it. The thing was that like a movie, its foundation is supposed to be the story. Everything else around it, the cinematography, the soundtrack, everything else around it is supposed to enhance the story here.


The story is, is they just said, well, fuck it, it's gone because we had it's a three and a half hour story. We're going to cut it down an hour and a half. The story's botched.


What you have, though, what you're left with. I want to say this in the most loving ways. You have a turd polished to perfection. Like if you looked at this movie at like as like, you know, in film school and you look at it under a microscope and say it's X, Y, Z, you know, you'd be like, oh, this movie's terrible. Like, it's and again, we understand that there's there's the other this is not the version that was intended.


We get it, but it's the only version that I can specifically talk about. And you too. So I can only go off of this version. And what I what I didn't want to say it, but I'm like, it really is the definition of polishing a turd and in it not in a bad way because, you know, I believe that the story originally was not a turd. It's just the way the movie played out. Like people say it all the time, no one goes out to make a bad movie.


Everyone goes out to make the best movie they could possibly make. And I think that the studios botched the shit out of this thing. And I do believe that there's a much more interesting and intriguing story there. But what we're left with is a movie that doesn't have a very strong story, but oh, boy, does everything else that comes with it is so amazing that you just completely forget that the story is just not that good or doesn't make sense.


You know, all the things that, you know now we've just talked about. And it really is like they polish the shit out of it. And honestly, it's fucking cool. It's a cool ass movie. It really, really is. It's a it's a fun movie. It's a fast movie. It's only an hour and a half. I mean, frickin trading places with two was two hours long. So like this is a fast movie and it moves like a dream.


And, you know, we said it earlier, but weirdly enough, the fact that the studio destroyed it in the editing process actually gives it more of a dreamlike quality to it. But I would say you if you haven't seen this movie, you absolutely need to. I'm absolutely blessed that that you got me a copy of this because I've wanted to see it for so long. It was not as scary as I thought it was. I told before we watched I was like this movie, scary as shit.


And that's only because of my, you know, ten year old, eleven year old me remembering it. It's really not that scary. But what it lacks in a story and what it lacks and scare, it makes up for in spades. And in the places that it's strong, the places that it's strong are like a ten, you know, like like and in the places that are it's weak are like a fucking three. So so the disparity, disparity between the the distance between like what's good and bad about it is very like a very big distance.


But man, the end product, this is one of those times were like the end product. The whole is better than the pieces that that that encompasses it. And it's in I have to give that to the acting. The acting is absolutely fan fucking plastic for what I can hear. And the cinematography is absolutely fucking amazing. The set design is killer. But that soundtrack, this Tangerine Dream soundtrack, it's it's everything. It is the secret sauce.


It is The X Factor. It is the cohesion that keeps this movie interesting, that keeps this movie. Moving along, that keeps this movie watchable, but also elevates this movie to a second, just a whole new level of awesomeness, and it's really because of this Tangerine Dream soundtrack, man. It's fucking fantastic.


Yeah, they they had done the movie thief, Michael Mann's thief prior to this picture with Jimmy Caan.


With Jimmy Caan.


I'm not a huge fan of that movie. I have to watch it again. It's been a while since I've seen it. But again, the soundtrack elevates that movie from just being a typical. Ho hum, caper film and then. They also did a movie called Soldier, which starred Alberta Watson as well, Ava, and the only reason I point that out is because she was in that movie, Ken Wall is in that movie. It's a really cool kind of.


Just kind of action movie in the early 80s, so they did a, you know, shit ton of movies that always elevated it to the next level, like kind of typical movies. It's funny because they did a soundtrack. They did the soundtrack for Three O'clock High and the director three o'clock. I actually didn't like what they gave him. He thought it was too dark. He wanted something closer to risky business. So they kind of went back and just recycled a lot of their old older music for that movie.


But. Fun fact is, I'm reading the credits for this film at the end. There's a. Very famous children's book called The Snowman. It's a wordless book, and they made an animated feature for it in the early 80s and the music is very haunting, but beautiful.


It's like there's magic in the air do. Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo right. Very famous piece for that movie for that animated short tangerine dream. Did a version of that in this movie. So at the end it says the snowman theme.


And I'm like, oh, shit, that's bizarre. That that would be in a horror supernatural type movie like this.


Yeah, that's pretty bad ass.


And another couple of fun facts. I didn't know that apparently there is a board game that came out for this movie. Yeah.


Yeah. Back in the 80s. Yeah. Which is awesome. I would love to check that out.


Yeah. I mean, Michael Mann, you know, I bet you've you've interviewed him now. Hopefully we will someday.


He might have a different perspective on this movie. I could see why he was hating on it for so long. But yeah, you're right. You polished a turd. You what could have just been a forgotten side, you know, a forgotten film by a heralded director. Ends up becoming a cult classic, like I could say, that this movie is easily a cult movie. You watch it with friends, you watch it on your own. It's not scary on one hand, but if you are if you're terrified by just like odd images this movie has that, you know.




Because as a kid, I said it earlier, but like as a kid, man, this movie is like an assault on the senses. And as a kid, I just I never seen anything like that before. I mean, honestly, I've never seen anything like the before period, even at the age of 42. It's a very unique film. And but yeah, man, it's such a. And like I said, the the you know, your protagonist is also, you know, a Nazi or German, you know, a German soldier.


So you're like, OK, am I supposed to be siding with him? But let me I do want to clarify just real quick and I apologize when I say they polished a turd. I don't believe that it was Michael Mann's turd. I believe it's Paramount's turd. They they took Michael Mann's movie. They ate it. And then they shit it out that it's their turn, not Michael Mann's turd, you know what I mean?


No. Again, I think this is and like I said earlier, we may have to do a watch list on movies, movies that. Should have been 10 times better, but a studio. Crapped on them. I've been saying that recently for the past 10, 15 years with Sony, I think Sony Pictures puts out shit movies and they kill franchises. I think they almost killed the Ghostbuster franchise with that remake. I think that the Spider-Man movies are terrible.


The the ones they did with. Yeah. The Amazing Spider-Man with and regard whether they are garbage movies.


I'm sorry. I'm just going to be totally blunt about it. Usually I'm very diplomatic and like, well, there's elements.


No, man, these movies suck.


And so when when a studio, a studio doesn't necessarily know, producers typically don't know what is going to be good. Joel Silver, just by the time this airs, Joel Silver Birthday would have passed already. Joel Silver is a rare exception of a producer that takes shit movies and turns them into gold with his vision. This is a but that's a rarity. This is a typical thing of like studios not giving a shit. They didn't give enough money to Michael Mann at the end.


So that's why the finale looks like it's so short lived.


It's just way over. And and the the special effects guy passing it also neutered that that final showdown was supposed to be much grander than it was. This movie just seemed like it had even during production, not just post-production, not just the studio interference, but even during production. This movie sounded like it just it didn't have an easy go now.


And that's that's a shame. But but like you said, and I agree with you, I know what you're saying. And it may sound harsh polishing a turd, but I think people get the idea that you took something that wasn't going to be that great and made it into something that is going to be memorable. I mean, people I think we're going to be talking about this movie 10 years from now. And maybe the fact that it never got a proper release is what's adding to the mythos into the idea that it is.


Better than it was expected to be, but so be it, dude, whatever we have copies of it, people should go out and buy it.


The quality is considering it's a DVD, considering it's it's live.


I don't know. It looks pretty damn good overall. Like, yeah, there's really not a Blu ray. It's 235 five to one.


So it's wide screen shots beautifully. Like you see the full frame. Yeah.


I mean the DVD transfer. I don't I think it's fine. Like the DVD transfers find it, it's bare bare bones, although it does have a commentary track by I don't not by Michael Mann I don't think. But it doesn't have subtitles. God damn it.


I mean, come on, come on. If anybody's listening to this, I don't care that we're older.


We live in a day and age where people want to actually know every little piece of a movie. They don't. You know, back in the day, people didn't really care as much. I want to know everything they said. You know, it's important to me.


So put the subtitles on. I would easily pay a little bit more for that. It's got the trailer on it, too, which is kind of cool because there's some scenes that were cut in the movie that are actually in the trailer. Yeah, and I love seeing vintage trailers are always so creepy, but.


Yeah, man, I'm glad we watched it. I'm glad you overall enjoyed it. Yeah.


I mean, don't don't don't get me wrong. I loved it. I loved my time with it. I thought it was super fun. I really, really do. It's just like, you know, the film school nerd in me is has a problem with, like, just fundamentals 101, you know, like literally fundamentals one on one or getting or getting destroyed here and like like like, you know, also to like characters don't have any arcs, like Kempler didn't really have an arc, you know, it just it's because everything was on the cutting room floor.


It's again, not Michael Mann's fault. It's the studios fault. But the the the plus is just so, so, so, so outweigh the negatives just like insanely so where you're like, wow, like the plus is just absolutely decimate the negatives. Absolutely. But so don't take don't don't think that I did not enjoy my time with it because I absolutely did and I'm so, so happy that this is now like in my, my lexicon more so than what it was, you know, before, like you said, it was it was more of a dude.


I was I was guilty of that.


For me, this movie was a a mythical horror movie that, like, I was literally scared of because, you know, even going in to watch it with with my wife for this, I was like, oh, this is going to be super scary. And I'm like, oh, it's not. But I see why, like, 11 year old me thought it was because, man, you're watching this at eleven. You know, you don't have that many years of experience behind you and you're watching your buddies asleep and you're downstairs in the basement of your house.


So like, you know, everything's sort of foreign and everything. And then this movie is so, so bizarre. I watched my brain just was not ready for it. But at forty two, my brain and my body was absolutely ready for it.


And I went back and I was.


Yeah, that's the only thing. That soundtrack's not available anywhere I know right now. But we live in a day and age where shit gets reissued all the time. People find the way fans I love like oh God. There's a vinyl company that puts out horror albums all the time and I'm blanking on their name right now and I own oh Death Waltz Records.


Oh know like the Reanimator soundtrack. All the John Kabur would not be surprised if they find a way to get their hands on this shit because it is it'll be gold. I'm telling you that shit would sell so well like a purple vinyl. That would look really neat anyways.


I was also going to say to that. This movie. My my childhood vision, memories of this film still hold up today, like just the idea that the ambiance is so overwhelmingly dark and creepy.


I would love to see like a triple feature of this with Prince John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness and then in the mouth of madness, like three kind of just like overall arching kind of doom and gloom, but. This weird entity presents for me personally, but I'm glad we watched it. I'm glad I could reintroduce it to both of us and I'm glad that at the end of the day, it made me smile more than it made me cringe.


Yeah, yeah. Yep, yeah. That's at the end of the day, anything negative about this film is dramatically outweighed by the positive. I keep reiterating that. But it's true. Yeah.


No, everything negative in this movie is overpowered by the awesomeness that is mostly the Tangerine Dream soundtrack and how its utilized.


You know, this this is fulfilling my desires. I love me some synth so we got it.


I mean I do too. And by the way, I just, I just saw the notification today on Spotify that the Midnight has a new album out, so I can't wait to listen to that.


Oh, it's beautiful, dude. It's beautiful. It's so good. So good with you, man. I love I love the midnight. I love gunship. I love FM eighty four man. Oh God. That that one album of Family four is just absolutely spectacular. But yeah I'm with you man.


I love synth wave and I love, I love Tangerine Dream. I was never a big soundtrack guy growing up as a kid but you are definitely not forcing me but helping me to, to appreciate and notice the soundtrack to to movies. And Tangerine Dream Man is true. Boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy.


Yeah it's good man.


It's good if you can't get if you if if man I would. That's another thing too. Like an isolated film score soundtrack, whatever it's going to happen one of these days someone's going to get someone like a like a Ronin DVD or Scorpion or you know, some of those offshoot companies going to get a hold of it.


But in the meantime, Diabolique DVD, check them out. I plug them up and down. So. Well, you're welcome. Diabolique DVD.


Oh, I tell you what, if you buy this DVD from them, tell them why.


Tell them that you heard it on our show and just share the love.


Just write a note, you know, in the notes section, when you, when you, when you order something, say, hey, I heard podcasting after dark review this movie. That's the reason I'm buying this DVD today.


Just yeah. Dad, be awesome.


That'll be really cool. I mean, we would I would like nothing like and here's the thing about this way. We don't want sponsorship from like Casper mattresses and all that kind of stuff.


We want sponsorship that actually like makes sense, like actually having like, you know, Aira or Severan or or Diabolique DVD, like sponsoring us. You know, we would rather have sponsors that you guys care about. Otherwise we're going to just turn into every other podcast and have fucking blue apron sponsorship and fucking, you know, all that bordewich which we'll do, which we'll do because, you know, we make any money we make we'll put right back into the podcast.


But yeah, guys, let them know let them know that that we Sentier would be would be awesome. That's all. That's all we're saying.


And I would tell you this to. It just it just reminded me a way to describe this movie, to wrap it up on two dollars late fee to plug, we came up with the term a masterpiece when a with a messy masterpiece. So this is a perfect masterpiece. And you know what? Whether we get sponsorship out of it, there was it was great to just walk down memory lane again with a movie that tickled the ivories.


Yeah, buddy. I mean, I ain't complaining. And I enjoyed every minute with it, especially this this two and a half hour conversation as I'm sitting in the sweatbox that is my office in like 90 degree temperature. I am I've literally lost five pounds. But you know what?


It's worth it. It's worth it. And on on that note, hey, Corey, where can we find you? Yeah, yeah, buddy.


Out there in the world, you know, you can always find me on Instagram. You can find me on Korac Coronation at my personal Instagram. You can find us, both of us on podcast after dark on Instagram. And then if you want to hear my sweet vocals, my pipes, you can listen to me and our buddy Adam talk about Seinfeld every week on Cartwright, a Seinfeld podcast. And that's on the BFO network, just like podcasting after dark.


Zach, where can we find you? Cough cough 2.0 lifea.


Well, obviously it seems like everyone gets their their sources from Instagram nowadays.


So yeah. On Instagram, find me a two dollar late fee or two dollars late FT.com. It's the my other podcast that I do equally loved 80s retro interviews, exclusive interviews with actors and performers from that time. I'm also on Instagram and Zach Shafer and then you can find me at my new website, Zach Shafer Vodacom, which I finally got done, which I'll have. It's got it's got all the work I've been doing outside of podcasts. So it's got my voiceover animation, voiceover commercial work.


It's got my stuff I did for Castle Rock on Hulu. It's got my stuff I did for juice boxes, kids cartoon, you know, it's got all that cool stuff and it's got links to all the podcasting after dark and totally free on that as well. So go to that actually for TV.com. Yeah. There you go.


And I real quick, just want to plug again to I will say that if you guys are following the podcast after our Instagram, which I know you are, because we're about to break two thousand followers, you saw that.


I had a lot of fun watching the legend of Billie Jean for the first time. And I did that because of the review that Dustin exacted on to our late fee. So it's a lot of fun and it's I don't promote trolly fee because it's one of my best friends. I promote it because I'm also a fan. So just see you guys.


Thanks, dude. Yeah, everybody. And the feeling is mutual. Thanks, man.


And you know, I'm also a fan of our Patreon on page. So if you'll like what we do here, like I like we said earlier, we have so much more over at the Patriots. We have another monthly show called Wrap Up after Dark where Zach and I kind of like have a just a freeform discussion, shoot the shit kind of show.


It's fun. We love it. It's it's a good time. It's a monthly show. And we kind of just talk about, you know, what happened in podcast after Dark's world over the course of this month. And, you know, we don't really go like current event type of bullshit. We we keep it light and breezy. So if you like, we talk about here, you'll like like that as well. And under that tier, you also get our our review videos.


Yeah. When when Zach and I send each other movies that we're going to do next, we will cut little videos. I mean, they're getting real fun and the people who, you know, are on the ground really like them. So there's those seem to be a big hit. And and but the sort of the meat and potatoes is our interviews after dark tier. And that's not only do you get the wrap up after dark, the ad free episodes and the unboxing videos, but you get all of our complete interview after dark series conversations with Brian USANA, the director of Return Living Dead, Part three, Tom Matthews, who you know as Tommy Jarvis and Friday 13th, Part six, and also regionality that part one as Tommy.


Nope, yep, yep. Right. Jesus Christ. Right. I mean that, too. Yeah, it's Tommy in both of them. Why? I don't know why I brain farted on that one. And and people like Zach Ward. I mean, guys, we have at this point, I think we're pushing about twelve interviews on there.


So Jeanette Goldstein, who is Vásquez and aliens, you know, Steven Kazansky.


I mean, guys, it's a lot of fun, and we've got Tom Holland dropping probably right around the time you hear this will probably have to Tom Tom Holland one coming out soon and then tomorrow. I mean, we've already announced it. We're talking to Billy Cole. And from Friday, we're talking to Jonathan Stark himself. Dude. So, man, oh, man, it's I'm blown away. I by the way, guys, it's all Zachs, the one that's getting us all these interviews.


It's so if you want to give a thank you to anybody, it's Zach and Zach. Thank you, my dude.


Because I never in my life when we recorded our Friday night review and I put out into the universe, what is Billy Cole at the time having not only the fact that we're interview Billy Cole himself, but the director and writer of the movie, none of that was in my thought, like, how the hell would I ever think that?


So the fact that we're living that reality is it blows me away, guys. I'm blown away.


So and thank you, Stephen and Stephen Jeffries, who, you know, is kind of a recluse, you know, not kinda is he's away from that scene now. So having him on the show was a kind of an exclusive because he doesn't do podcasts ever. Dude, it's my pleasure. You know, that this this is this is the part of the show that I feel like I'm pretty good at.


And and but you're good at every part of the show, man. You're going be fine. Thanks. Thank you, brother. Likewise. Likewise. You know, up until this point, yeah. We've got we've got Jonathan Stark and then we're also going to be interviewing Richard Band a few days after, and that'll be another one later on and in a couple of months.


Richard Band is the music composer for some of your favorite horror films.


So including including prison, which we did hear on podcast after Dark. So right. There you go. So come on.


Like if you're able to give love in a financial way. More power to you, bless you, you're awesome if you're not and you just write us notes, you know, like some of you guys who just write us notes and say, oh, we love the show, keep up the great work.


That means the world, man, because look at this in this day and age and I'm not getting political, but you know, what the world needs now is love, sweet love, like legit.


When you go out and you say something nice to somebody, you write a note to them. You, you, you, you say, hey, good job. That means the world, you know. Yeah. The two of us are sitting here doing our thing. And, you know, we put a lot of time and energy into this because we love it and we will continue to do that. We want it to be the best podcast on the planet that's not disparaging to anybody else.


Just want to be the best, the best of our best. And and it puts but it takes a lot of energy and time.


And so when you show when you get that, when you guys shout us out and you say that to us like, great job, we loved it, then we means the world to us.


Like it really does. Really does. It really does. And we we both of us, you know, even if like I respond or if Zack responds, we'll both still see the the comment on Instagram or whatever.


If you leave us a review on Apple podcast, we, we see them all and yeah, we'd love them all. We try to reply to everyone if if we didn't reply to you, that was a mistake. We we really tried to reply to everybody. So yeah. Just just saying if if we didn't, that was a total mistake down the road, whatever.


But also one announced real quick we got a merch store up, guys. We launched it on Instagram. We announced on Instagram. We've already been selling pretty much a shirt every single day. You guys seem to love it, but yeah, we got a merch store up. You can find it on our website. Just go to podcast's after dark dotcom slash merch and it's right there. It's everything through T public. So you could always just go straight to T public and type in podcast after dark, but the website will get you there and we have three D we have three shirt designs up now with we would like to to just do more moving forward.


Honestly I would love to like have a shirt for every episode. Like one of the ones that I want to do is just have a like a silhouette of Christopher Walken and then just put bop bop bop on it like I just want like deep cut shirts that no one else would know besides fans of podcasting after dark, you know. So that's our goal.


And I think like how did this how does this get made? Kind of does that like every episode has some kind of shirt with the slogan or something. So I'd love to do something like that. But right now we do have three that are awesome, one of which is our year one poster that we had Dan Parker designed for us. And by the way, that was paid for that commission to Dan Parker was paid for from funds from our Patreon.


So we just we honestly take the money and put it right back into the show. Truthfully. Truthfully.




Thank you guys for everything up and down to be T, to be T to be guys t to be so and as Zach always says, we'll catch you on the dark side.


Horrible memories. Oh, no.


Join the podcasting after dark pagan community to unlock exclusive monthly content like cast interviews and a fan feedback show. Plus, you get every regular episode of podcasting after dark, completely ad free.


You can also support the show by reading and reviewing US five stars on Apple podcasts and by recommending us to your friends.


Finally, make sure you follow us on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook for news and updates about future episodes.


Just search for podcasting after dark. Have you been wondering where's the beef? Well, on our podcast, Throwback Trivia take down, you might just find that out as well as some other things about the 70s, 80s and 90s.


We're a nostalgic place trivia show that pits two challengers head to head in a duel of the decades with categories ranging from movies, TV and music to slang, food and fashion. You're sure to get the best in retro themed trivia. So strap on your jelly shoes, grab a surge and walk like an Egyptian to your favorite podcast app and check out Throwback Trivia Takedown. I heard even Michy likes it.