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You are listening to the Reality Steve podcast with your host Reality Steve. He's got all the latest info. And behind the scenes, Juice and Claires upcoming season of The Bachelorette. I'm interviewing some of your favorite reality stars. Now, here's a reality, Steve. What's up, everyone? Welcome to podcast number two three, I am your host reality. Steve, thank you for tuning in. Great show for you this week. I went on the podcast about a month ago, maybe a little bit more, and now they are on mine.


It is bachelor clues from Instagram. We'll get into why there's no name attached to that. And Lizzy Pace from the Game of Roses podcast. I'm sure you've all listen to the Game of Roses podcast. Very fun stuff. And we talk about a lot today in regards to The Bachelor franchise. So look forward to that before we get started.


A couple of things to get to before.


Like I said, The Bachelor Clues and Lizzy Pace.


Come on. We are five days away from the premiere of Claire's season this Tuesday, the first episode which is released early to the media through a username and password protected outlet.


And as far as as of right now, has it been posted? If I remember correctly, last season, Peters didn't go up till, I think the Friday before his Monday premiere. So I would think the first episode is going up in the next few days and I will watch it and put a first episode recap up on the site probably Monday or Tuesday.


With her premiere being Tuesday, there is still a chance the show doesn't premiere on Tuesday if there's a Game seven and the NBA finals, which means Miami would have to win tomorrow night and Sunday night, probably not going to happen. But considering the presidential debate, the next one is next Wednesday. If for some reason the NBA finals goes to a seventh game and ABC can't televise The Bachelorette, I guess they push it back a week because they can't just do it the next night because the debate will be on.


So I don't know I don't know what the plan is, but. It's a better than average chance, probably 80 to 90 percent chance that if not more, that clear season goes off on on Tuesday because I don't think Miami is going to win. Both games Friday and Sunday, that also means for the first time in six, seven months, we're back on a normal schedule starting next week.


Now, in the past, it's always been recaps on Tuesday, read emails on Wednesday, podcast on Thursday.


Well, the show airs on Tuesdays now. So the plan is. Reader emails is going to be on Tuesday. Recaps Wednesday podcast on Thursday, which means get your reader emails in this week and all tweeted out just to remind people as well, but start getting your emails in because for the next.


A while, six months straight, we're going back to programming, you know, yeah, we might not have had bachelor programming from March until October, but now we're going to have bachelor programming pretty much every week from now until mid-March because Claire Taisha season is going to run through the end of the year. My guess is it's going to end maybe two weeks before the end of the new year. And then we know as long as there's no hitches in the Matt James filming of The Bachelor, which starts this weekend at Nemacolin Woodlands Resort, they're set for a Monday, first Monday in January premiere, like the last eight bachelor seasons have been.


So and that goes until mid-March. So we're going to have starting next Tuesday, every week for the next six months, we're going to have bachelor programming bachelorette for October through December, bachelor from January to March. So while we didn't have it for six months, we're all getting we're going to get our fill for the next six months. So look forward to that. Also, we're going to take up my phone here because I wrote down my notes of what I wanted to bring up.


Oh, I already talked about it first episode on Tuesday and possibly getting pushed back, but yeah, reader emails is the big thing and we're back on regular schedules starting next week.


I know that basically I wrote less than five columns in the last six months, and it was it was tough for a while just because there was nothing to talk about, nothing was filming.


And, you know, on a normal schedule, Claire's season would have filmed from March to May, would have started airing, made a July in paradise, would have filmed in June. It would have started airing end of July till mid-September. And we would be right where we are right now, which is about to be filming the bachelor season. So, yeah, that's that's where we're at. If you saw Ashley and I's live on Instagram last night.


We talked about a lot about the contestants that were released on Matt James season and.


You know, it will be a little bit different because we're going to have a season filming while one is airing, it's never happened before, but at least recently I'm talking in the last probably 10 years, maybe in the beginning, in the early seasons it did.


But, you know, I fully expect, you know, not a lot of stuff is going to get out at Nemacolin just because it's a they have the whole resort to themselves.


Not going to be a lot of pictures that get out. Not to mention that resort is way more secluded than looking to resort where they filmed Claire and Taisha season. So I don't expect a lot of stuff to get out during filming. But anything I do here, I will pass along in regards to what's going on with Max women as format's women.


You saw him. I wrote in the column yesterday. You've seen all 43 of them, probably, I would say.


Eight to 10, maybe eight to 12 women aren't even going to make the cast and will be eliminated before the show, you know, there could be a covid situations with any of them. Clearly, they wouldn't be making it on the show. But, you know, when they released Claires men in July, she had 42 and only 31 ended up making it to her first night. So I'm expecting roughly the same for Mat's probably of those 43 women, at least 10 will probably get cut and they'll have between 30 and 33 women to start the season.


But I get my thoughts on some of them. Last night gave you some tidbits on some of the women in yesterday's column, and I'm sure I'll find out stuff throughout the season. But I am going to not have I haven't got really anything bad yet, but the same old stuff I hear every season. Oh, she was seeing this guy right before she left. Oh, she was a partier and had a lot of sex in college. And it's like, OK.


I mean, it's like what's the point of bringing that up to anybody? What is someone having a lot of sex in college, one of these women? What does that have to do with her being on that season? That means it's such a generalization to make. And nothing I heard in the last 24 to 48 hours about any of these women is. Expose a worthy of some of the stuff I've written in the past, and so it's just more along the lines of.


You know, the same things we hear every season, I've you know, I've heard plenty of these girls oh, she's totally on for clout, totally wants Instagram followers, all this stuff. It's like, look, that's not news anymore. People, I'm sorry if you're watching the show, hoping to get 43 women that are dead set on finding a husband on the show, you're watching the wrong show. This is a franchise. Now that these women all know what they're coming on for, they all see the women before them and the opportunities that have been presented to those women.


This is no different. They're coming on. And, yes, there's going to be a bunch of Instagram wannabes and there's just going to be a bunch of Klout chasers. That's that's what the show is. So you can't you can't watch the show and then complain about it when you know what's coming. So either don't watch the show or just watch it and don't complain about it because that's what you're going to get as far as these contestants. So anyway, that'll do it for you.


A little update. Let's get started with podcast number 203. It's BATCHELLER clues from Instagram and Lizy Pace from the Game of Roses podcast. All right, let's bring him in now. You know them from Instagram and their podcast is BATCHELLER Clues on Instagram and Lizy Paste from the Game of Roses podcast. Guys, thanks for coming on. And I do want to talk about something real quick in regards to your names, but thanks. Thanks for coming on.


Thank you very much for having us.


So we are on a three way call here and BATCHELLER Clues, which it's funny that I'm calling you BATCHELLER Clues because I know your name and I know who you are.


But you but you've got to run with this identity of like, you know what? Nobody really calls me by my name. I'm just batcheller clues on Instagram. So I'm just going to call you clues for this call, because when I became the three of us are on a call. So it's going to be tough to where maybe we don't want to talk over each other. So all kind of direct who I want to answer the question and will kind of go that way.


So close.


Exactly. Tell me how this all came about where you just decided to run with this. Hey, I'm kind of anonymous here.


I'm just going to keep going with it. Well, I mean, I started doing this Instagram account, I don't know how many years ago at this point after watching The Bachelor with Lizzie sitting on the couch right next to me, she was furiously typing notes for a recap site that she used to do. And I was taking pictures of the screen at that point, just like two or three pictures per episode. And I remember the first time I ever made was Chris Harrison sitting in a chair, two women still all doing air quotes.


And I put the words finding love in between his fingers. And that was the first time I ever made. And I was like, well, fuck it, I'll just make an Instagram account. And. The fact that the show had clues in it was kind of an inside joke among Lizzie and I. And so I just Googled bachelor clues and started generating these names. And over the course of however many years, bachelor clues has kind of become like a weird artist identity for me in the same way that maybe like Banksy is for whoever Banksy really is.


I, I kind of see it as I see Meems as an art form, certainly a modern art form. And I kind of just see that for clues as my artist name.


They are definitely the Banksy of our of our beloved game show.


And Lizzie, I mean, were you I mean, have you kind of been in awe of the way this is kind of taken off? Because I don't think you had this in mind when you first started to do.


When we first started, we were watching purely for pleasure. And I don't know exactly what happened when we decided to do the podcast. I was doing these recaps. Clue's is doing his meems. And we were like, let's just try this. And we were just recording on it like basically a tape recorder.


And I think that just the way that we both see the show has is a very unique perspective of watching it sort of ESPN style, breaking it down as a game. And I think that that has really appealed to people because I think people have been watching it as a game, but not identifying it as. So they're making fantasy leagues, but not. Not breaking it down into place type thing. Yeah. I OK, I have a I have a very ignorant question here, and if you don't want to answer it, you don't have to.


I don't even know if you've covered this on your podcast. Maybe you have and I don't. I don't know, so I'm just going to flat out ask this or wait, are you guys a couple are you married or are you are you dating?


Because when you say when you said you watched it on the show and you were watching it on the same couch, I'm like, wait, I. Are they just friends? What is the situation here? But if you don't answer it and you want to keep that anonymous, that's fine by me too. I don't care.


So ignorant though.


We are not we are not a couple. We've been watching it in a group of friends for years and I used to work on a TV show together called Bad Judge. Yes. Which he created. And I worked on that show. That's how we met.


Gotcha. OK, that's answered. So you guys, obviously, you look at the show from a very different angle than most recaps do. And like you said, Lizzy is more of a it's more of a game to you guys.


And for clues, it's more of a like you said, it's more of a meme thing where, you know, I I cannot look at Chris Harrison on TV anymore without thinking of him with devil horns and, you know, eyes that look like he's possessed because that's all I ever see on on the job.


Yeah. I'm doing what I set out to do.


Like, he's like he's Xinyu from Scientology or something. Like he's just the character that you've created that is just kind of freaky to look at online.


But when Lizzie when you look at the show and kind of talk about it and recap it, do you have a do you have a set way?


And you were like in like you said, the way you break it down is more of a game thing. Where did that come from for you? I think that we just started seeing these patterns and we started predicting who was going to go far, and I think a lot of that has to do with we both have backgrounds as TV writers, and there is like a narrative structure that people want to watch. And so a lot of the game patterns are sort of these television tropes where you're setting up these walls that you want to break down.


You're bringing up these what we call you to see your personal tragedy card to create this emotional moment that you can then have a deeper understanding of the character from. You're basically creating all these scripted TV tropes through your playing the game.


And just to add to that, I think it really started for me. And I remember universally this is when we started talking about it as a game is when Instagram really started to come into prominence in the context of the game itself. Once there became this measurable metric of Instagram followers, that was kind of like a baseball batting average. Once that started to establish itself, it was very apparent that not only are you playing the game to potentially win a ring or win a crown as the next bachelor or bachelorette, but now there is this secondary goal that's completely outside the show itself that you can achieve this measurable success on Instagram, become an influencer, start making money.


And so that element of the, I guess, kind of the peripheral world of The Bachelor to me, at any rate, really solidified the idea that this is a game from the beginning. People go in knowing, like, yes, I'm going to try to maybe fall in love and get a ring or whatever. But they all are trying to get that Instagram number up as high as they can, no matter what the actual outcome of their gameplay is for sure.


Yeah, and you can measure it now includes puts their Instagram numbers on their faces often so you can tell how well they're doing.


Yeah. And I think I think one thing that, you know, you get asked all the time, people in the TV industry and even me, myself and anybody that goes on the show as a contestant gets asked all the time like, well, is it real or is it scripted? And it's like, well, it's not scripted to where you're handed a packet and you have to memorize lines. But it is scripted in a like the behind the scenes part of the show is the scripted part, like the production has their scripted, like you said, the tropes of the show, the things that we see every single season, the way they tease in and out of commercial breaks, the way they tease in the promos like that's all just part of television production.


So that part is, I guess, what you would call, quote unquote scripted.


But are they told to memorize lines and say lines? Well, I mean, you ask certain contestants, they'll tell you. Absolutely. I was told to say this line or else I couldn't go to bed. So it does happen. I think it is to that degree, we now we're in this era where there are so many players coming out and going on podcast, Lukie, for example, was just successfully sued because he went on your show.


But you have all these players coming out and talking about the real behind the scenes stuff. And I think we're getting to see the producers do forced them to say certain lines. I mean, what you also have reported about this upcoming season of Bachelorette being completely produced, that the Clare Crawley leaving halfway through the season was something the producers from the beginning. That's insane. Yeah.


No, I mean, it's. It's also one of these things, because people have come to me since I wrote that and said, well, how did Claire not know? I said, well, it's very easy. Like they knew Claire's intentions and they knew Dale was Claire's favorite before the first day of filming ever started. So and in hearing when certain things and when when Taisha was notified of everything, everything points to the fact that they knew they were bringing Tatia on.


It wasn't like, hey, let's just start Claire season. Oh, shit. She's really into Dale. No one else is being given a chance. We have to. You know, go to plan B. Let's call Tatia up, no, Tatia was she was on hold before the first day of filming, which shows that they knew that they were going to bring her in at some point. So, yeah, it is it is pretty crazy. And I don't you know, again, it's going to be tough to prove they'll never admit it.


So it's just one of these things that's just going to kind of get lost in in everything here. But I just I think it is fascinating. Well, Mr. Nick Nechvatal, who just says that anybody who has something that production does bad to them, they're just misremembering what happened on their season.


Of course, there's there's there's always that the disease of not being tapped for. Yeah.


It's like. Yeah, well, you know, our top four. So you're just misremembering what happened on your season, OK? I just I just love to line those people, you know, does that none of those people go on next podcast. They're just he doesn't like that podcast to them to tell him to his face neck. No, they told me to say this like I didn't misremember anything. But that's neither here nor there. We'll have Nick Vile talk later on in the podcast.


I know you guys.


I know in some ways they are, you know, sort of running this sort of prison and they have so much power. We were just talking about Blake and going on Olivia critize podcast, mouthing off and how they sort of isolated Caitlyn and made her believe all this stuff about Blake and I. I totally by that I mean they have all the power in this situation.


It's why it's just so hard not to believe. You know. I know. I know. People say, like, is reality TV real? And it's like, no, it's not real, but I just don't think people understand the extent of how not real this show is. I mean, it's real people and they're they're not robots out there. I mean, and they are living, breathing human beings.


But other than that, it's every situation is manipulated. Everything that happened just off the top of my head the last season with Peter and Kelsey and the champagne bottle and Hannah and like that is such an example of how this show isn't real yet. They created this major conflict, that episode by one incident completely controlled by production. How about the Chase Rice thing to me in the last season with TPE, when the Carrefour is taken to the concert, it is fucking Chase Rice.


I put my mind was blown. I'm like, who is still watching the show and thinking that the producers have any of these people's best interests in mind, that they're actually trying to help foster any kind of romantic connection between them? They're clearly trying to sabotage it. They're trying to undermine this relationship and they've set up this situation to blow up in her face. Oh, absolutely.


I mean, that's one of many examples you can think of throughout the throughout the years.


I mean, I even think last season, now that you mention it, the Victoria Paul Allaah situation was so bizarre because we had this. Social media proof that these two women hung out numerous times, took a trip to Las Vegas, and then you got Victoria Paul on air saying, I've spent three hours with this girl. It made no sense whatsoever.


But I don't think that I mean, I think that it's clear if you really were to get Victoria Paul in an interview and tie her up to a polygraph machine, I think she would probably admit that she was told to say things, to advance a story line and not what really happened in her life. One hundred percent, I have no doubt about that, the producers told her to say that a hundred fucking percent, there's no reason that she would have said it otherwise.


There's no benefit or detriment to say that she doesn't know or if she does in real life, you know, it doesn't like it just makes no sense to tell that lie unless the producers were trying to drum up a rivalry plot there. And so they told her to say these things. Yeah.


I mean, Lizzie, when you saw it, were you like, wait a second, what's the point of this? Why why are you lying about something that's pretty insignificant in the whole grand scheme of things?


I mean, I get lying to the point of passing. Like, I understand her thinking somehow that, oh, they're not going to cast friends on the show, so we should distance ourselves. But once you're already at that point. I would say just like come clean with it, and we've already seen Callen and Hannah have the pageant rivalry before, like they've had people who know each other. Yeah, and it's been a successful strategy. So it was very bizarre.


I I found her gameplay to be so fascinating because she would just drop in these tiny little bombs into conversations and then just sort of like whisk herself away. And you wouldn't even notice that she's the one who had precipitated all of the drama.


And I think the other thing that it's kind of funny that gets lost on Peter season with Victoria is the fact that. She was the reigning Miss Louisiana and she happens to leave the show and tell Peter that it's whatever not working, I can't even remember what their conversation was now. But, you know, she didn't get eliminated out of the rose ceremony. She eliminated herself mid episode when they were in Iowa, forgot where they were. But chilly, I think.


Yeah. And she eliminates herself. And the very next day, there's footage of her. Giving her giving her crown away to the miss the next Miss Louisiana. It's just like, OK, so it's clear that she went on this show and said, I'm going to give myself X amount of time on this show. And if I haven't determined that Peter and I are going to make it or if he's going to pick me in the end, I'm going to bolt so I can make it back for the whatever it's called, the crown and at the crowning, whatever it's called, soxer to crown your successor.


Yeah. And and she was there. I mean, it was I had pictures of her getting off the plane and the very next night she was in Louisiana and mean it was just it's just funny to think about that now of how plan it was, because if Victoria in her mind thought she was going to win zero chance, she would have probably passed on the night of crowning her successor.


She would have stayed on the show like the season before when Caitlyn Malachy's bolted and did not come back to Crown to crown her successor for Miss North Carolina.


She stayed on the show because she got a hometown. God, that's fascinating. I didn't know that about Victoria, Paul. Oh, you fucking objected. Yeah, she's like a try. It has gone sideways and I'm back on stage 24 hours later.


It was literally pictures of her at the airport in Louisiana arriving. And the next night there was cell phone people that were at Miss Louisiana for 20/20. And there she was, you know, crowning her successor the very next night. It was just it was all it was all too funny.


That is fascinating clues. And I have been talking a lot about the role of pageant girls and and this game and how they tend to be pretty good at it.


And we were just going through about James's women and there's a lot of pageant people in it I'm excited to see.


Well, the one that sticks out is Marie Marie Pepin. I guess you can't pronounce her last name. She's Miss Marilyn is Marilyn. Twenty nineteen. She finished top ten. Victoria was top 15, so she competed in the same Miss USA as Allaah and Victoria. So they clearly all know each other. So that didn't hurt her getting on the show. Not to mention she looks like Priyanka Chopra, whatever. That's her name, right? Priyanka Chopra.


She's yes. Certainly very attractive. Miss Marilyn 2019. I think she's the only like state winner of match women, although I might have missed a couple here and there. Maybe you guys did a down dive than I did. But, yeah, I mean, it's pageant women, as we've seen two seasons ago with Kolten, it was Hanahan and Kailin. Last season it was Vitória Pole and Allaah. Now this season. As far as I know, I don't think anyone else from 2019 Miss USA pageant that may have or may not have been an adversary of Mariola on the season, but who knows, they have branched out to Catalina.


Morella's Gomez is a Miss Universe. Puerto Rico. That's right. That's right.


She was Miss Universe, Puerto Rico. So maybe there's well, they weren't in the same pageant.


But God knows, just the fact that there's a second pageant woman there, we could there could be some beef.


It's really it's really crazy. Well, let's just jump to let's just jump to, first off, clear and clear into the season. That's coming up in your findings, clues in your findings and early season studying of what's been going on and what's happened. What have you had any overall takes on this and what you're most looking forward to? I've had a million overall, and I think it's probably all wrong. I mean, I was at some point convinced that it was all a hoax, that, in fact, there was going to run out the entire season and that the producers had been just shooting us propaganda of these pictures of all these different people.


Lakita just to throw us off the trail. Then I was convinced there was going to be a wedding in the first episode, that they were just going to condense all of player and Dale Mastership into one episode that's going to conclude with a wedding. And that's why they had Jarrin actually and Becca Cooper and Hans-Olaf and all those people down there because they were attending a wedding. And now I'm falling back towards we're going to get five episodes or five episodes of Teisha, this kind of double bachelorette season.


We're just picking through Claire's leftovers. And I just. I don't really know what to expect from the season other than it won't be normal. It's not going to follow the usual game structure and purger reporting about the producers purposely doing this. I just continually asked myself, why would they do that? And if it is because of what you're reporting, that they thought because they were shooting in a bubble, they were going to have to make this overly dramatic.


So they orchestrated this giant blow up. If that's the case, I think they're wrong because I think the strength of the game, the 10 round game of attrition that goes from regular season to playoffs, which is hometowns and fantasy series, the finals, that is what we're tuning in for. And it's why when we get to like Peter season, for example, the first four or five episodes last season didn't exist in the normal structure of beginning to rose ceremony, beginning to rose ceremony.


They were like putting them in the middle. So the episode would end halfway through one of those cycles before you got to the rose ceremony. And it was not a satisfying. I think people are attuned to that game. And when you fuck with the game in some way and this entire season seems like they destroyed the game, I don't know if it's going to be as entertaining to watch.


You know, Lizzie, as a woman, if you're clear if to say if you're clear if you're Taisha.


Granted, I don't think any woman, whether they call Taisha up or tear up or any single woman from a past season and said, hey, will you come in mid show and take over as The Bachelorette? I think any of them would have turned it down.


However, no taking that part out of it, the money aspect of it and the notoriety aspect of it. Do you think Taser is getting the short end of the stick here as a woman, are you are you kind of like if that were me, I'd be a little like, OK, I'll do it. But this kind of sucks because I I am The Bachelorette, but I'm also getting a bunch of guys that have already dated Claire, signed up thinking it was Claire, were brought on because Claire was the bachelorette.


And now I'm being thrown in like, how would you have felt if you were in your shoes?


I mean, I think she's absolutely getting the short end of the stick. I think that these seasons, both Claire and Matt James are already going to be seen with an asterisk because their quarantine seasons and they're not going to be traveling. Yeah, but Tatia getting, you know, short a shorter amount of episodes, getting the leftover guys, not getting to date Fillmore's.


And also just she's not getting any of the promotion they're still doing. Only Claire promos. I think she's totally getting the short end of the stick and. I mean, I don't know, just the way that they've been treating both Tasha and Matt James, having Matt James's intro be, I know on the Go episode they brought him in via Tyler Cameron. And it has always struck me as like here's Tyler Cameron's black best friend. And then he Schütz and for two seconds.


And I'm sure we're going to see Tyler and Hannah in Matt James's intro. I just you know, they're trying to be more diverse and more inclusive. But the way that they're handling this to me is just it's not great. The rollout of Matt James, especially just posting that Instagram post that during all of the BLM stuff like, yeah, it rubs it rubs me the wrong way.


Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned this season and Matt season being an asterisk next to it because no travel.


And I've asked this to a couple people. I'm curious your thoughts clue's are you going to be the least bit bothered or not that you're not going to watch, but is it going to be like weird to you or you're going to be like, wow, that really takes away from the season that we're not going to have any travel during the holiday season or the Matt James season.


Then we're going to get a one location thing. Or are you along the thinking along the lines of, you know, when I watch it, I probably realize the travel isn't really that big of a deal. It's the contestants that make this show. Travel is just like background picture in the background. Yeah, for me, it's still the game and what I like about The Bachelor, like what really has hooked me on it is watching the gameplay, how these players will psychologically manipulate one another, manipulate the lead, how they will deal with producers trying to manipulate them.


It's kind of that to me is the game of it. And it's almost like it's like what baseball is like. Now, if you tune in and watch a baseball game, the audience is a bunch of cardboard cutouts to me. Basically, this is like the same game is being played if the environment is a little different. But that's also why I think the clear season does have an asterisk, is because that game is going to be broken halfway in the middle and then started again.


I guess, like, are there going to be another round of little exits? It's that season specifically is going to be very strange. But I think Matt James, if it does run its course, the 10 round game that we've come to know and love and the home towns are there flying the parents to meet them at Nemacolin instead of flying them to meet those parents and their hometowns. I don't think it's like for me, it's not a huge deal.


I do like to see it when they travel, especially the domestic travel, when they're like, you guys are going to Cleveland and everybody has to be like, oh my God, my dream are coming true. I've always wanted to go to Cleveland. That's hilarious to me.


But to not have it doesn't really it doesn't take away for me anyway why I'm watching it.


Yeah, I mean, I, I tend to think that the travel that interests me the most on a non covid season is probably more so the hometowns and the overnights. I don't really care where they go. Four episodes, four or five, six and seven. But to go to somebody's hometown and do some cheesy thing that's somehow linked to that hometown or and then to meet the family in their element at a home that's usually rented out and put together by a production team, is is is a little more interesting than, OK, we're going to fly the parents out to Nemacolin and whatnot.


And yeah, I think I think it is going to be different. But is it going to take away from the overall show? I don't think so. I don't think people are going to tune out and say, like, I'm not watching because they're only staying in one location this year. I really and the dates all seem kind of the same thing. And no, I don't I don't really think that'll change.


Lizardo, you know, and Cruise and I are doing this project right now where we're watching The Bachelor every single episode. Yeah, we're on season 13 now, but seasons like around three, through 12 are very experimental. You have all of these different elements of the game changing. Sometimes they're in New York, they're in Paris, sometimes there's no hometown. Sometimes the fantasy suites are all in different locations and the show holds up through all of it. So I'm I'm not worried about this, like breaking the game at all.


I think you still have the fundamental structure there. Re watching these past seasons.


How about Charlie O'Connell's opening night where it seemed like working with the women like brought upstairs in the filming was in a like a loft in New York, in New York somewhere.


I'm like, God, you look at that now and it's like it was that was fucking fascinating to me because it was technically this was season seven. Yeah, it was. In my opinion, it is where we saw the birth of the modern limo exit because for many seasons, limo exits were just people would literally come out of the limo, walk up, shake the bachelors hand and go inside. And that was it. You saw twenty five of those in a row then in his season, because they did this thing where they told all the women they were all asleep in their rooms and the producers knock on their door at 5:00 in the morning and they're like, you've got five minutes to get ready.


Charlie wants to meet you. And so they all hustled downstairs without having time to do make up or hair or put on any clothes or anything. And then they tell them that they're each going to have two minutes of a speed date with him. And there are two roses that will be given. So in this moment, you see all the players, a switch flipped in their head. I have to put on a two minute performance right now because a rose is at stake having that idea, which would essentially become the first impression, Rose, having that idea of a prize to be given because of your first impression, because of essentially your limo exit, even though they weren't coming out of limos, they were just meeting him in this hotel.


Some of those women put on fucking shows. And I think that's where at least the producers saw, holy shit, this moment where they first meet. We can make that bigger and then you start to see bigger and bigger limo exits in the years that follow.


Yeah, we had this woman, Christine, give us arguably what we call the trick or treat or a tot where she was dressed in a big. Under her outfit, and she took it off and then she read him a poem and then she gave him her bikini top, which we call crinkling where you are Cringle, where you enter and you give him a gift. But we had not seen anything like that. But because you had these condensed two minutes and they're like, what am I going to do in this to make an impression?


And the rose is right on the table there. You you upped the importance of these, quote unquote, limo exits. And you also in that season had group date roses and up the ante of every every group card as well.


And the roses were displayed on the dates put on the table in front of all the players. So you can immediately see their anxiety, their competition. All of that goes through the roof as soon as that rose to their eyes darting around. I mean, it's fucking crazy. So you see these little elements of the kind of psychological tactics the producers are learning through the years that have ultimately led us to what we now have.


You know, I might have been then I might have been mistaken there with the the loft, because like you said when you mentioned Charlie's opening night, now I remember his I think I might have been thinking of Jen's chef season. Jen Scheft was, I believe, filmed all in New York. And her first night, seemingly guys walked up like almost a circular staircase, if I remember correctly. I don't know if you guys have watched that one yet.


We haven't gotten into the boxes, OK, after we plowed through our hyper binge of all the bachelors.


Lizzie, you mentioned something when you were talking about, you know, Teisha and then Matt and kind of how ABC is handling this diversity thing.


I guess we can give them some credit because we're now going to have a bachelorette that's black and a bachelor that's black. And we saw the cast list for Matt James released yesterday. Yeah, absolutely, from the naked out the most. It looks like the most diverse cast ever. Yeah, from the naked eye. When I counted, I just looked and I just went through each picture. I'm like, OK, not white, not white. I had 28 of the 43, not white, which is blows anything away in any previous season.


Now, granted, if The Bachelor was white, would we ever have that ratio? No, but I mean, I guess it's, you know, progress like I wrote today, it's like, you know, progress. There are all 43 women between size zero and size four.


Yeah. But, hey, you know, baby steps, they've only been on the air 41 seasons. You know, we'll get to casting.


No, I mean, some time. I think Rachel Lindsay's season, you had maybe a third of the cast as the first and this is over half. So definitely different from that.


I think the average age is twenty five point nine five, which is also pretty ripe. Yeah, standard.


It's standard for Bachelor because when Nick and Ari were bachelors and they were thirty five and thirty six respectively, when they were the bachelors, their median age was 25, 26, maybe twenty seven point one I think might have been highest. I mean no matter who the lead is on the show, they're going to cast women that are 23 to 28 years old. That's where a majority of their cast is. Matt is 28.


I think there's four women that are 30 or older. There's two girls that are 30. There's one that's 31 and there's one that's 32. And that's it. So they're always going younger for Boosler.


It's just they're never going to change. Yeah, I'm curious in terms of the diversity to see if this is going to be something that lasts or again, if this is an asterisk kind of season where they say, OK, we've seen Black Lives Matter, we've heard that's diversity, we're going to give this one season. And the ratings will also have a big part to tell in this, whether or not they do it again or whether or not after everything in quotes goes back to normal and they can travel again and all that stuff, will we see the show returned to kind of what they perceive normalcy to be in terms of lack of diversity in casting as well?


Yeah, I'm also curious how they handle the various storylines, too, because it's you know, you have the front facing cast might be diverse, but do you have more diverse producers? I mean, they haven't transparently said that they have hired more diverse producers, but maybe they've been working on it.


But just, you know, helping tell those people stories in a way that is much more respectful and understanding. I mean, just going back through these old seasons has been kind of harrowing at the way that they have portrayed some of the people.


I mean, as we saw when the goat episodes aired, the fact that. Brad Womack had 55 women between two seasons, and one of them was black, is fascinating. I mean, that's just that's that's so wrong on so many levels.


But to see Brad Womack's group picture on night one with two different seasons and he's got one black woman, I mean, it's like, come on, it's unbelievable.


And you have to wonder, like, obviously the producers are the ones who make the final decision, but does he have no say in it? Was he ever like, I don't know, guys, maybe we should have two black players? Like, it's fucking insane to me.


And maybe and you know what? Maybe Brad told them when they asked him what kind of women do you like? And he said, white women. And maybe Brad said, I'm not into women that are non-white, never dated a black girl in my life, never dated a Hispanic woman in my life.


Maybe he said that. Well, at that point, the production should have said, well, then you're not our bachelor as opposed to, oh, we'll just you know, we'll just, you know, cater to your needs.


So it's clear that it's clear they cater to his needs and then, you know, and we got what we got.


But, you know, I yeah, I find the whole thing. Look, they're trying they have to I mean, I don't think anyone was surprised, you know, before Matt was announced, I think I said it on my live with Ashley Spivey literally five days before Matt's announcement on Friday. I think that Sunday night I said, look, Ashley, I don't know who the next bachelor is going to be, but I just can't imagine in these times that we're in, whenever it was late June, early July, I said, I just can't imagine this show rolling out another late 20s, you know, average white boy as their bachelor.


They will get crucified. And then, you know, five days later, here comes Matt.


Like, I don't if it took, you know, what happened in June to make it happen, fine. You know? Yeah, it didn't matter at this point. It's better than not having it. And I'm just saying, hey, our next bachelor is, you know, Casper Milquetoast. There he is. You know, same guy that looks like a combination of Nick Ben-Ari, Sean Peter, you know, just Chris.


No, it's going to be one. It's going to be a again, he gets a second season.


Yeah. How about I want to go back to you know that you bring that up. I want to go back to Peter real quick. I just this whole thing with Kelly is pretty. When you look when you look back on this season, you looked at everything that happened that, you know, he got engaged to Hannah and and then he broke up with her. And then he seemed to feign this interest for Madison to appease television viewers on that after the final rose and then two days later, he says, yeah, we tried, it didn't work or we're going our separate ways.


And then a week later, he's in Chicago with Kelly. And now they've basically become official and they're traveling everywhere. I think this Peter season post show has been nothing short of unbelievable. It's unreal what has kind of happened with Peter and Kelly, and it's just been accepted that, like, I get it and great for them. I mean, if they're happy and they're together and it sounds like they're moving to New York and going to rent a place out in Chicago as well, like, good for them.


But when you look back on Peter's season now, God, it's just look messy to me.


It's like there's no better evidence that the show it's real purpose is to derail relationships, is to sabotage your relationship. These two people met outside of the show. Then they went into the show. And while they're the producers pour, they're fucking burgeoning relationship apart. And then the show ended and they got back together. It was like the show was an impediment to their relationship being so hindered them, if anything, you know. Yeah. So the person that he actually liked the most, the person he is now with the show, would not allow that relationship to happen, even though she was one of the people in the dating pool.


It's insane.


And if you and if you listen to interviews that Peter has given. I think he specifically has said the Kelly that was on the show, I wasn't attracted to like she wasn't into it, she didn't like to play the she basically didn't want to play the game that production was giving her, which then in turn turned Peter off. But, yeah, it totally derailed it.


And Lizzie, do you like them as a couple, by any chance? Are you, like, rooting for them to find them ugly?


Do you find them oddly entertaining?


I have been calling them are cringe content king and queen on our podcast, because I think that they are tapping into this element of their social media play, which is. Absolutely horrifying to watch, but incredibly fascinating, and they're getting the viewers not through, you know, people loving what they're doing all Hannah and Tyler, but they're getting it through like, oh, my God, look at this horrifying dance that they're doing. I have to send this to 20 people.


And I do think they're very well suited to seem to maybe have the same political beliefs and like the same act.


They both you know, we're shirking social distancing at the beginning of the pandemic. They're very aligned.


Yeah, they seem I think they've taken it seemingly seems they've taken about 10 vacations together since since March, which everyone just kind of accepts or says, oh, OK, I guess that's the way it is. I mean, I know how many flights they've been on, whether it's a commercial flight or, you know, a private jet flight, private plane flight. The whole thing is it's it's certainly bizarre. And the funny thing is, you mentioned.


Oh, God, I just lost my train of thought about that there cringe content. Oh, I know what you meant.


Mentioned you mentioned content about Hannah and and Tyler.


Um, did you watch this video that they released yesterday? Yeah, I did. Yeah, I mean, I, I need I'm someone that kind of needs stuff laid out for me in terms of a timeline and I need dates of stuff like that, like. They talked yesterday in this 17 minute video about their whole relationship and everything that went down during the pandemic, like everyone was supposed to know everything that went on like I was.


So I would think I was more confused after I watched that video of what the hell is going on between those two and what did go on between those two. Then I was before it like, did it clear anything up for you? Close. I mean, look, I'll just give you I'll give you my dissertation on that video because I have one, OK?


I want I want to hear. So the video opens with some graphics. And we already know that Hannah Brown's YouTube channel is going to have very high production quality. The images are going to look nice. She is going to have a professional team making these videos for her. As soon as it it comes out of the graphics, we get a single shot. It is Hannah and Tyler sitting elbow to elbow, apparently on the floor. And behind them is a TV screen with a fireplace and kind of white walls.


Now, that background isn't real. They're doing this in front of the fucking green screen. So from the very outset of this video, they're trying to convey to us that what they're saying is real and genuine. And we're finally going to get the truth, however. They're shooting this in a location that we don't know, they're shooting it with a fake background. This is a fucking set. This is all produce. And then if they're delivering the information, whether you can follow along with the events that they're reciting about what happened to quarantine crew, what happened and all that, should or not, I could follow that because I've watched all of the videos.


Shit. But it seems like their tone, they keep looking at each other after one of them will speak and they keep watching each other while they're talking. The tone of it to me came across as it was like two little kids who have made up a lie together to their parents about what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar. And they're just making sure the other one is completing the lot. It seemed like they made up a story and they were trying to stick to it.


None of anything in that video seemed real to me, and especially not the goddamn background, which was literally not real. A digital background. You got to love the fireplace on the TV screen as a background, that was hilarious to me. We had those as a and a family growing up that we'd sit around at Christmas time and have that playing in the background while wild Christmas music was playing over the speakers.


Like, I. I was so grateful. Yeah.


And why green screen like they were in a room together. But what room was it like it's some kind of production set or they just had a green screen in their living room. I don't know. But that's not a real location. It's all fake. Everything in that video is fake, I think, including their story, which they said that they never even kissed. That's one thing I didn't understand because it talked about two different times that they were it was like they saw each other and then the pandemic hit and then her brother went into rehab and his mom died.


And that's what brought her back down to. And then during that time back down there, they slept in the same bed for two weeks straight and never touched each other and talked about farting. And this I'm like, what? What am I watching? I feel like I feel like ramming my head against the side of my end table watching this thing. It's like what they know.


They know that we will watch literally everything that they do together. People want them to be together more than they want the pandemic to end.


They want it more than anything that is. Did you go to heaven Brown's birthday party like clue's?


No, but I did hear that clue's did attend her virtual birthday party.


So explain this. What happened at Anna Brown virtual birthday. But what did you get to experience? I'm sure you didn't pay top dollar for VIP access, but what did you know?


I would have, but it was sold out.


Of course it was. And it probably was lying around the corner for that, though.


I wasn't paying fifteen dollars for the kind of general admission. And it was an hour long event that had Hannah Brown with a series of kind of guest videos that came in wishing her happy birthday, everybody from Kaitlyn Bristo to Tyler Cameron. The last one she did was Matt James, and she said that this is the last video he made before going into the bubble of shooting. And Nemacolin and Demi Bernet also came on and did kind of like a Zoome thing with her.


They played a few games and kind of the biggest moment of it was she unveiled her YouTube channel to live to everybody who was in the event, and then she unveiled it to everyone else, you know, thirty minutes later, whatever. Wow, 50 dollars worth it. I mean, for me, it was because I felt that it was incredibly important to cover this as news in the bachelor world, because I do think that this model, business model of paid live events is going to be something you see more and more players doing.


Anybody who has over a million followers, like I would be fascinated to know how much money she made off of this, but I have to imagine for an hour's worth of like I was going to say work, but not really work. I have to imagine she made a lot of money. Hundred grand maybe, is there is there a number? Could you see the number of people in the room or know? Now, there was a chat scroll on the side and it was constantly moving.


There was never a dead spot in that that was like the only kind of way that I had to gauge how many people might have been in there. So I have literally no idea.


It was a bunch of just a bunch of handstands falling, falling all over, just telling her how great she is. Yeah, that's correct.


You can imagine, Lizzie, would you ever pay fifteen dollars to enter a bachelor contestant's virtual birthday party? You know, I unfortunately had a prior commitment that night, I, I have I have wondered about what I would have done, you know, if I worked for you. Let's say we had we had crews covering it.


Let's say it wasn't Hannah and it wasn't Hannah and and someone else didn't like do you have a favorite, whether it's a male or female from this franchise that. If they did put out a party like that or we're doing some virtual event where you would be like, absolutely, sign me up, I would do that 100 times out of all.


I mean, I got a message that Nick Viall had already done, which I don't I don't know how we missed. Oh, my God.


But I would love to attend that birthday party, like especially his fortieth birthday. There's in terms of gameplay, I mean, I would probably go to the birthday of of a lot of the top four players, Anna and Matty Matti's would be it would be interesting.


I think life events to me are kind of fascinating thing that has happened, especially during quarantine when, you know, I think another reason, Steve, you were talking about Kitty and Kelly and how their whole relationship has blossomed in the post show era. But I think it's also because we've been in quarantine and there's no new bachelor content. So we're all scouring the Internet and watching that as our bachelor content, I think in a normal era. And we would have already had we'd be a bachelor paradise right now.


I think that you wouldn't be caring as much about the older. I think that Kelly and people would not really be news. He's dating Kelly now. We wouldn't be like I watched them do a fucking eating contest where Petey was trying to eat like 100 hundred pounds of McDonald's food for charity or something, and he kicked off a balcony. I would never be watching that if it weren't for the fact that there's no bachelor on TV, you know.


You know what else is kind of fascinating to me? And it just hit my brain because you brought it up was you talk about people getting screwed over and we talk about the paradise aspect of this.


And the game aspect of this is, you know, assuming there's no major outbreak in Matt James season, begins filming this weekend, ends on time right before Thanksgiving. And we start this cycle back to normal and we start our regular cycle of bachelor airing first Monday in January, going to mid-March. That's when Bachelorette films and then it starts airing May, the July Bachelor Paradise Films and June starts airing right after Bachelorette ends. Assuming we're back on that schedule in twenty twenty one, which as long as Matt season goes off, we'll at least start at that way.


It's fascinating to me because we did not have a paradise this season, which means that Peter's women and Claire Danes guys are getting the short end of the stick when it comes to next summer because they're not going to be the most recent people on everyone's mind. It's going to be Matt James women and whoever the next bachelorette is, her men are going to make up a majority, probably 70 to 75 percent of next summer's Bachelor in Paradise cast. But you've got these assumingly single women out there.


If they are single, come next June, the Madi's the Hannah ends, the Kelsey's, the Victoria Fullan, like, I can't imagine they would pass them up, but it's almost like the middle players who could have made a name for themselves on Paradise this summer. Are going to get screwed because they're going to get passed over for Matt Jameses, women that are eventually going to be on it. And I think that's a whole thing to to get into.


Like, man, you're you're out of luck. The pandemic really hurt a lot of people's bachelor paradise chances this year.


Yeah, the pandemic mostly hurt people on the bubble like MacKenna and Allaah.


Yeah, no, they're the real victims for sure to mention the the listen to your heart players, because for those players, none of them had a chance at a million followers unless they got on paradise. Still for like Hanah and Slosson, the top players from peak season, they've got some of them huge Instagram followings they're going to be doing spawn the next couple of years. They're OK just from their appearance on Daschle. But those listen to your heart players, they all knew they had a chance to get on paradise if it would have been a normal production cycle.


And I think some of them would have been on it. Now, I don't think any of them even have a chance.


I mean, I think the top four do. I mean, if if if Victoria Fuller.


Kelsey, we're. Hanahan and Madison are single come next June. I don't see how any of those four aren't cast, especially Hannah and I.


I would think Hannah and I mean, if there was a paradise this summer, I was saying that Hannah Anne was going to be this season's Hannah, like the most sought after free agent on the market for sure. And I got to imagine she would jump at that. All four of those women would jump at going on paradise next summer. It just means that they're going to be coupled with some probably heavy hitters from that season, whoever that may be.


You know, we won't know that for a couple of months. But but I want to jump in that season now based on the stuff that you were able to to look at on on the women from that season. They got released yesterday. I've got a I had I put out a few notes today and some things that I've heard about some of these women. But what jumped out to you on what you saw or what you looked up and found on any of Mat's women?


Because you might have found something I haven't yet.


Yeah, it jumped out to me right off the bat. But everyone is insanely hot like there. Everybody is a 10 essentially who's being cast at this point. And not not even all of these women are going to make it on. Yeah, but I feel like we're in it's a next level of the game at this point. Like, a ton of these women are already models, they're in pageants, etc. It's a stiff competition.


I also just wanted to preface this and ask you what you thought of this as the why does ABC do this? They tell all these women to lock their Instagram account and then they release their names and Instagram accounts. I don't understand. Like, what is the purpose just to have us go crazy? What do you mean, what do you mean they they they released. Well, they released they don't release the Instagram accounts, obviously, you know, myself was able to identify all 43 yesterday.


So, I mean, I'm the one that, you know, technically put it out there.


But are you saying that like, well, maybe they released their names, but they also tell them to lock down their social media. So ABC is essentially like, let's put the names out there, but don't let anybody dig into their backgrounds. It's a weird I mean, it's a psychological tactic. Basically, it's what they do to the players on the show, but they're not doing it to us, to the audience. It just drives me insane that it's like if you're going to release their names, let us Google them, let us figure out who they are.


Either Instagram is crazy to me.


I guess they justify it by saying, well, we're only giving you their first name and we're not allowing you to have their last name. But then that's like what you said by not allowing us to have their last names. And just here's what they look like at a shot out in the woods in Nemacolin, which clearly some of those head shots yesterday were at Nemacolin and some were taken taken straight off of there. It's like, hey, here's a here's a better picture.


I me use this one. I really think that yeah, it is it is kind of weird.


I don't understand. I've never understood it. It makes my job so much more. It made my work yesterday, last ten hours to find every person's last name. And you know what you get once you get a last name.


It is a direct attack on Steve. Yeah.


Once you get a last name, it's pretty easy to find the Instagram. But for the longest time. No, I mean, you know, they've only been. And the other thing is they've only been doing this the last five or six seasons where, hey, here's a list of everybody who could be on the season and then, you know, X amount don't end up making it.


But, you know, for me, it just has turned into well, in a non covid year when we had public dates or, you know, pictures that got out. Now, if we see a picture of a date, which won't happen on that season, but in the past, when we seen a picture of a date on Peter Season, we could identify every woman on that date because we have now a picture of every woman and their first names.


In the past. It was just like whoever I had released at that point or anybody I had known that was a cast member, but I hadn't released to the public.


And I was like, OK, I know that that girl's on that date, but that's really all this really does.


And I yeah, I don't really understand it. I don't kind of get why it's like here's the first name, here's their ajin and city. And the city is such a screw up because half these girls I don't know why the city that they're giving is seemingly these women's hometowns.


It's not even the city that they live in. Why do I care where this woman was born, if she's lived and if she's if she's lived in, you know, Portland, Oregon. Born in Portland, Oregon, and raised in Portland, Oregon. Great. But she's been living in Denver for, you know, five years. I don't care that she lived in Portland. I don't know.


But it's probably because they don't want to say that all of them are from L.A.. Exactly different from the ones I found the year that are living in L.A. now.


Yeah. The timing of it is also strange because it's literally the week before the season starts. Once again, they're using Matt James season to undermine Claire. It's very bizarre. Yeah, why do you think they released it this week? Well, I only I only can say that they released it this week because they're keeping in form with the last five or six seasons is that they have released the cast the week, the week the show starts filming.


But because we're all screwed up with covid, yeah, they released it when classes are about to start. But it's also because Matt Season is about to start filming this weekend. So they've kept on the same schedule. But because Clare season got pushed back, that's why it's overlapping. So I guess I can't fault him for that. They're technically doing what they've always done, but I. Clues. What did you find on any of the women that you found interesting?


Well, of all of them, we found that only three of them have their Instagram's either still active for public public. All of their Instagram that are out there that we can look at looks pretty good. There is there was one person who is like. Magney to Righi. Yeah, who is from Ethiopia? He's a legitimate fashion model like In Vogue and shit. All of her pictures are high, high end fashion photography. I don't know if we've ever seen anybody ever.


I think in Bashour, that is quite like at this level of fashion modeling. She's going to be an interesting one to watch. I feel like Keit Clementine Keenan, she's going to be very interesting to watch. She's coming into the game with thirty nine thousand Instagram followers, and she's a fashion designer. She she's a podcast with her mom. Her mom is a fashion designer who has one hundred and seventy nine thousand Instagram followers. She has a YouTube channel with a thousand subscribers.


I think she could be the kind of dawn of this season. And she's also very young. Twenty one. So they'll certainly use that storyline with her. Are you really here for the right reasons or are you just trying to build your fashion brand? You're too young to want to be married, all that kind of stuff.


Maji as well also has a lot of stuff about philanthropy and this Schuh donation she does for these girls in this village in Ethiopia. So I feel like that's that's a huge part of what Matt James is into. So I think they could bond on that. And then the only other public one was Michelle Young, who has two posts. She appears to have started her Instagram in April, possibly coinciding with passing for this. We think that she definitely has like the right look for this.


And I think she could definitely be a contender. Yeah, Kit, Maggie and Michele, the only three that are public, there are six that are deactivated, Victoria Larssen, Kennedy, Taylor, Rachel Kirkconnell, Piper, James, Matt, Marrie, Pepín and one other deactivated.


Oh, Sansoni, yeah.


Sannyasins, Sandy Sinclair. I was told it's funny because yesterday someone told me she pronounces her name Sanei Sanaya. And then when I posted it this morning, I had three emails within five minutes saying, Yeah, Steve, you're pronouncing it wrong. It's CENI as in Dasani, like the Dasani water. That's how it is. And she has a former homecoming.


She's apparently a very big deal at the University of Florida. She was a homecoming queen. She was. And she's in the Hall of Fame at the University of Florida for she was a major player in the Greek system out there. Just a lot of a lot of work on campus. Like she's apparently a big deal. But, yeah, now that's that's Sawney totally expect her to be around. And then we have this year's Kelly Flanagan on a much on a much stronger level.


This Madison, this Madison Nelson Nelson, who I was told dated Matt for a couple of months last summer during the whole thing. And she went to a fashion show with Matt. As I wrote today, I don't know anything about the relationship in terms of how serious it was, who broke up with who. Was it a bad breakup? Was it a good breakup? So as I wrote this morning, kind of comparing it to, is this going to be a Nick Viall, Liz Sandos thing or is this going to be a Peter Kelly thing?


And I guess we won't know until it happens.


But finally, clearly, it's not a good conclusion what happens. Clearly, this isn't a girl that just like randomly met him like kind of Lauren line Lauren Burnham did with Ari or like Kelly and Peter ran into each other one night. These are two people that dated. So they're they're clearly going to use this as a storyline.


What are your thoughts, clues on how this is going to play out with with Madison? She will make it to week two or three, the producers are going to force him to keep her to night one so they can build that as a story into week two or three. He clearly is not going to want her there, that James is looking at this opportunity to expand his social media presence for one or two. If it does end in some kind of relationship, it's not going to be with somebody that he was dating before he was the bachelor, because now he can elevate himself in his own dating pool, whether it's somebody from the show or not, he's not going to go backwards.


So I think Madison has no chance at making it even to playoffs, even to a round of six. I think she's got to be gone by week two or three. And they will make it again, I think like a five to six minute kind of clock in week two or three where they sit down and he tells her, I'm so happy that you're here. We've explored this. I'm glad we had this time to have these conversations and get this closure on our dating life that we had outside the show.


But I have to let you go now.


I think because of the duration of their relationship, it won't be as unceremoniously as Liz Sandos.


As soon as it's brought up, she gets torpedoed and has to exit the show.


But I definitely think they're definitely going to use that for a storyline, at least the first few episodes. Yeah, built in there was there's a there's a Reddit thread that someone posted all of these different sororities that a lot of these people were in.


And I was like, that is that is an interesting connection as well, because you do get this training in, you know, sort of how to how to socialize and how to, like, look like you're into philanthropy and that you're well-rounded and that you are there's a lot of focus on looks as well.


It shouldn't be on that. In a sorority, you get the hard core training of learning how to navigate a super competitive psycho social dynamic situation. And I think that for any prospective players out there, if you can get into a sorority all four years of your undergrad, do it, try to become the president, set that as your goal. It will train you very well for your experience on the show.


Well, you know, we talk about how social media has played such a big role. And I know you have all the numbers written down and I. I wrote down everything last night of these 43 women, I have seven of them. It's just funny to look at the numbers now because there's seven of them that have five digit followers, you know, 10000 or more. And that's Catalina Morales has got fifty one point six. Carwyn Jones has fifteen point three.


Katie Thurston, who's a big tick tock girl, has eighteen point two. Kaylie Anderson, twenty three point four, Kim Lee seventeen point three. Kit Keenan, forty point five. Maggie's got ten thousand oh eight. Sarah Trott's got eleven thousand and Brittney Galvin's got twenty thousand. So eight girls have ten thousand or more. And it's like funny to look at it now because we know by March of twenty, twenty one when the show is over, it's just it's hilarious to see, like it doesn't even matter what your followers are right now.


Oh she's only got you know, Abigail Heringer has got less than a thousand followers. You got 187. If she makes it to the final four, she's going to be at 750000 in the next five months. Like, it's just, yeah, crazy to think it. And it's just I look at these numbers and I'm like, I write them down, but I'm like, these numbers really don't mean anything right now because all that matters is what's your number come May, March 20, 21, when this season's finale airs?


And I feel like Abigail has one of the her look I feel like is right for this.


I also feel like Anna Anna Redmen also stood out to me, the Hannah Brown lookalike that everyone keeps saying, yeah, yeah. Oh, by the way, I don't know if you saw my note this morning.


Abigail Heringer was she was born partially deaf and wears hearing aids.


So all the people that all the people that liked her yesterday, which was a lot, were based on just initial reactions from pictures. And I think because she was the first picture picture I put out there and first person, I went out there because she's alphabetically the first one the season.


Yeah, I think her storyline now increases 100 fold. The fact that she was partially deaf and wears hearing aids and no sign language. So that definitely helped.


Totally good to know. I wonder if the producers will force her into some situation where that is a challenge she's going to have to overcome like they did with Sarah Heron when they made her do roller derby, even though she only has one arm.


Yeah, no, I you got to think it's it's somehow going to play a role, whether it's a group date that involves, I don't know, hearing something.


I don't know. But I just I think it's it's it's certainly got to be a story she tells. I wouldn't be surprised if she's in fact I would be stunned if she doesn't have an intro video where she talks about it. You know, I yeah. How could she not. But and plus we don't we don't know. I mean, based on you know, when they released Claire's guys in July, there were 42 of them and only thirty one of them made it to the first night.


So it looks like ten of these women, eight to 10, maybe even 12 of these women are not even going to make the show, which is funny because when thirty four of your forty three women. Have an Instagram set to private, whoever doesn't make the show, the second they're told, hey, you're not on the show, we're putting you on a plane from Pennsylvania back to wherever you came from. The second they get their phone back, they're going public on Instagram, I would think so.


To be able to the second they get their phone back, they're going to make a female version of the getaway getaway.


Well, yeah, yeah, I, I, I referenced that today as well.


I said like well who whatever eight or 10 don't make it. Who knows. Maybe they'll become beefs and travel to meet each other all from different states, not wear masks and film videos of themselves. They should wrestle alligators together.


The swamps of Florida. Yeah that too. But yeah I mean it seemingly thing. I think we're going to be able to tell who doesn't make it on the season because by Thursday or Friday. By tomorrow. Well this is airing Thursday. So by tonight or tomorrow, I would think the girls that do get caught and get their phone backs are going to probably go public because they're not part of the show. They haven't signed any contract. I don't think if you just are there.


But I mean, maybe you have maybe they'll talk or maybe they'll just tell you, please don't go public. I don't know. But I think we know that the getaways did like those guys, the Yangs and The Colins Youngbloods and the Alex Brucellosis from last from their season. They all turn their phones on when they were eliminated. So we knew that they never made it tonight one. So I would expect the same to happen for these women and probably, I don't know, eight to ten of them don't end up making it.


I, I couldn't tell you who because like you said, Lizzy, this is again, one of the you know, you hate to say it seems like every season I say, but this is one of the better looking casts they've ever had. Yeah, but it's not even just that they're better looking either.


Just from the pictures that they're showing us and from some of the Instagram's, we've been able to find some other images Googling. It's like these people, they're professionally good looking. Many of them are models. Tragically, it's to me, at least from my initial kind of glancing at this, it is the highest level of that kind of professional attractiveness that we've ever seen in the show.


Yeah, Aleesha me as a professional ballerina, too. I mean, they're high level at this point. That's why I like when I'm guessing about who's not going to be on the show. I am looking at, you know, the people who have, you know, a couple of them have under a thousand followers and maybe look a little bit more timid and kind of seem like the show will tear them apart.


What about what about what about bottle service girl at a pool in Vegas? Does she make it on the season? Yeah, I oh yeah.


I think she'll make it on. I think she definitely could be like, you know, the seductress villain. Yeah. I wrote, I wrote down contender slash villain.


I could I could easily see a champagne gasque event that the producers will somehow set up where she's delivering a bottle to The Bachelor and saying, like I do bottle service to engage her in some kind of sexy dance or something. I don't know. I can see it being used as part of a little mini date on a cocktail party.


I definitely don't see her being like one of the top few, though. Just, I don't know, just some of the I don't see Matt James. That's like a raver. Yeah.


I mean, I hate to pigeonhole anybody just based on what we found yesterday, but there's something about Carly Anderson which just screams this girl is going to be involved in some shit.


Like just it's just I mean, I hate to say that to her. Maybe she's the nicest woman in America and she is just. I know. She just. Yeah, I don't know.


But it just she just comes across in her pictures and knowing that she's a bottle service girl in Vegas. Yeah. She might get involved in some drama.


I mean, a woman on Unlove Island, U.S.. Yeah. Also a bottle girl Kirstyn. She's done pretty well, so.


Yeah, don't get me started. Definitely. See that being a story that the producers try to tap into that it's like, well, are you really ready for a serious relationship? I mean, you're a bottle service person in Las Vegas. You know, she has a party lifestyle that James wants a good Christian. She might be presented as kind of the hedonistic heathen that James is, pious, Christian, something like that. Yeah, I mean, just looking at some of these and like Kim Lee dated some YouTube ah, she's the ex-girlfriend of some YouTube to David Alvin.


Yeah, I watched a bunch of I watched a bunch of those videos. They have a bunch of videos together. She's also a nurse and she was very funny in the videos. And I was like, I don't know if that's right for this show.


Yeah, I don't have a personality.


We've seen that gave the sense of humor in the quarantine period.


Videos I don't think anybody is actually funny is going to be appealing to you know, we talked about Keit earlier. You know, she's got the famous mother. She's 21, she's a podcast or she's one of three that oh, I left my Instagram open. Oops. You know, you know, she's she's someone that clearly is going to get a label whether whether warranted or not she will get a label of not there for the right reasons. She's already getting it because she's 21.


Yeah. She has a podcast with her mother.


So she also has a New York Times profile about her already. It's like, oh, boy, I don't know, I kind of want to see this the show launch people rather than people who don't really need the show.


I mean, Sarah Trotta is an interesting one because she has an entertainment background in L.A. She's got a website. And in one of her pictures, she's clearly friends with Katie Morton. So there's that aspect. I know that's so perfect. Serena Chu is a flight attendant who also is best friends with Eunice from Peter Susan, who's also a flight attendant. There's that connection there. Amber Andrews is a 30 year old blonde bombshell model actress who I think could cause some waves.


I mean, these are just, you know, initial impressions. I don't know enough. The only one I know enough about or was the was the Madison thing, because I was asking around for the extent of what was this? Was this two people that had coffee one time or like, no, they dated for a couple months and. It was, you know, I guess, somewhat serious, but I I just don't know how it ended.


So but yeah, when they dated it was last summer, it was when Tyler was with me was when I was told it was like when that whole thing was going down.


So, OK, just way before he even thought that he had a chance to be on The Bachelor. Yeah. Maybe they were talking to him through Tyler at that point.


Yeah. So this would have been like, well, let's see, the season ended airing in July. So this would have been around like last August, September ish. You know, last summer is what they say. Right. So I'm trying to think if anybody else jumped out at me just based on a job title or where they were from or anything. Looking at the list here, no kind of couple. We've got a couple of NFL cheerleaders, Nicole Remy for the Seahawks.


Yeah, Candy Taylor for the Washington Football Club. I almost said Redskins, but I didn't. I did just there.


But I think that is the football team. Yeah. Washington football watching football guys.


Yeah. Team I call the club. Yeah. Anna Redmond. It was the most the most reaction I got from somebody that gave me a look alike was oh my God, Anna Redmond is Hannah Brown's twin. I got that ton's yesterday. Abigail was someone that people just seemed to like, just her look. And that was before amount's this morning about the fact that she was born partially deaf. Katie Thurston. Because our talk is private, we haven't I haven't seen any of what she actually does on tick talk, but to be a nobody in terms of you haven't been on TV, you just started your own ticktock account.


And to have 240000 followers and and one million likes, I guess, is a pretty big deal. But I haven't seen any of her video, so I don't know what she does. Same here, yeah, I can only assume it's my kind of door and ask thing and singing type thing.


Yeah, no, it looks like it was kind of I feel like I saw screenshots of just the beginning and it looked like more of a talking to camera type thing.


OK, so nothing like parody or dancing or singing songs or anything. I don't think so.


But this is based on screenshots of Tick-Tock video, just like a straight Donald Trump being really ticked off.


It looked like it was kind of like it looked like it was kind of like funny to camera, like quarantine humor.


And as and as far as we know, I haven't seen anything or nothing's come up about problematic. Tweets or Instagram posts or I did go down a rabbit hole of her in courage. And so all of the photos are posted on Facebook and her guide commented on her photos like, I'm so proud of her as her dad and I went down a rabbit hole. And he's very Mocca.


Oh, I don't know, you know.


Yeah, I guess we can't pin that on her. I mean, it's. I think these contestants, I mean, they're all I mean, the only three we can see are Kit, Maggie and Michelle.


So when they do get their phones back and a lot of speculation. Yeah, I think a lot of them will either. Clear out their posts before they actually go public and be like, whoa, wait a second, let me let me go through this to make sure that nobody who once can now see my posts find anything problematic on it. But nothing was sent to me from people who already follow some of them. Yeah, I didn't get anything that was too disturbing.


I don't think I think the scrappers are going to be better and better. You know, I think everyone needs to do them a solid young root and just start anew and start.


Absolutely. I did get the overall vibe on TV season. Hannah and Maddie can be intense loss and Madison Pruitt were the kind of new prototypes of players. These are women who grew up watching the show from age zero. Basically, whether they know it or not, I think they are just kind of absorbing gameplay. So by the time they're of playable age, they just know how to play front to back without ever having to, like, really study it just because they've seen so much of it.


They know the rhythms of the game when they need to raise a level level, when they need to use their while, their peers or whatever. And I thought and Silas and Madison prove it really to me, where signifiers of a new era of the game, where we're going to see at least one or two players every season now exactly like them who never make a misstep. And just from again, we don't have much on these players like you take pictures of them, some Instagram.


But I feel like we're seeing maybe five or six Madison, five or six Hanahan four losses in this one. All the ones who are like professional models, you have Catalina, Morales, Gomez, the Miss Universe of Puerto Rico, like, that's unbelievable to me. I think she's going to crush people. I just I think these players in that during the season are going to be so astute in terms of their understanding of the game that we're just going to see the final six are all going to be bulletproof and it's going to require real hard core strategy to make any moves through the playoffs now.


Well said, that's the break down, the sports analogies are great, I love it, but yeah, yeah, I mean, it's great.


I really like it. I love the way you guys look at this show totally differently. And so when I talk to you about it, it's you know, you throw out terms like game and strategy and stuff like that where most people, I think 99 percent of the audience that watches the show don't watch it the way you do. But your but your television background probably lends to that as just you kind of see how this how this thing works. But again, I I've really you know, ever since you guys did the podcast where you broke down my interview with Nick, I've I've been I've been a huge fan.


I mean, I had seen the bachelor clues and I had seen these pictures floating around from bachelor clues on Instagram of just, you know, psycho Chris Harrison pictures and, you know, Devil Horn to Chris Harrison.


And I was just like, I don't what is this?


And then I made the connection and again, I made the connection.


And then the game arose as podcasts. And then you guys had me on a couple of months ago, like right after the Nick interview. And it was just, you know, now I'm just I'm a fan and I appreciate the way you guys look at it. So if anybody listening today, you know, wants to check it out, it's the game of Rose's podcast, or you can follow clues that match the clues on Instagram. You guys, thanks so much for coming on.


I really appreciate it. This was a lot of fun. And it'll be very interesting to you know, one of the thing that we didn't even talk about was the fact that.


Because covid pushed everything back. It's like, wow, we haven't had any bouts of programming for six months. Well, yeah, but now we're going to have batuque programming for basically. Five, six to eight months, because we got Clair's season every Tuesday up until basically the week of Christmas and then boom, here's Matt James season first Monday in January, assuming they're keeping the same schedule. So while we didn't have anything for five months, we're now going to have bachelor programming with no break.


And I think that's something that they're probably banking on. I'm sorry, because I had been dreaming about it, but thank you so much for having us on. We are huge fans of yours as well and love talking about this with people who are so insanely into it like us. Thank you. Yeah.


Seriously, thank you so much, man. We have appreciated your work for many years because we really think that you're kind of the only one doing it. You know, we really, truly do believe it's important work and that the coverage of The Bachelor as a sport or just as a serious piece of media that's being created in America, which is now controlled by a reality TV show, has we really feel like what you're doing is necessary and is elevating the coverage of reality television on the whole to the place that ultimately to be?


No, I, I totally agree. And like I said, I love the way you guys cover the show. It's a lot of fun talking to you. We could probably have gone on for another hour or so talking just television and your background on television right now. Maybe we'll do that some other time. But again, thank you so much for coming on. Appreciate it. And keep in touch. Yeah. Thank you. You got it. Atika, thanks so much to Clues and Lizzie there.


It's just so funny calling him clues.


I envy if you do enough digging, you can find out his name or who he is.


But I asked him before he went on, Mike, do you want to go by your name or do you want me to call you by your name? Like, no, it's just kind of been in this anonymous thing that if people want to find out, they'll they can find out who I am. They even gave hints during that podcast of who they are and what they've done in the past. You could easily find them. But yeah, Clues and Lizzie have a very, very interesting Instagram account and podcast, Games of Roses, Game of Roses podcast and batch of clues on Instagram.


Again, thank you so much to them for coming on and talking about God. We talked about so many things from Mat's women to plantation's season to social media aspect of this game. I know you got me calling it game. It's just they they were a lot of fun. I hope you all enjoyed that. So thank you all for tuning in. I appreciate it. Please read, subscribe and review in Apple podcast. We are back next week with yet another podcast.


Don't know who it is with yet, but I'm sure it'll be a good one anyway. Thank you all for tuning in. Appreciate it. For Clues and Lizzy, inreality, Steve. And we will talk to you next week, Tim.