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[00:00:00]

What happens after an advice columnist signs off on our new show, Dear Therapist for My Heart Radio, we find out. I'm Lori Gottlieb from The Atlantic and I'm Gauguin's from Ted.

[00:00:11]

And each week we sit down with a listener for a consultation. Then we ask them to come back on and tell us what happened. You can email us with your own dilemma at Lorean guy at I hope, media dot com.

[00:00:22]

Listen to dear therapists on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Heidi Murkoff, host of What to Expect, a new podcast from My Heart Radio when I first wrote What to Expect When You're Expecting my mission was simple to help parents know what to expect every step of the way on what to expect will answer your biggest pregnancy and parenting questions about everything from preconception planning to birth plan. Newborns sleep to toddler tantrums.

[00:00:57]

Motherhood is the ultimate sisterhood, but it can be overwhelming if you don't know what to expect. Listen to what to expect on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Pay fan, I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the Red Tablecloth podcast, all your favorite episodes from the Facebook Watch show in audio produced by Westbrooke Audio and I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to write and review on Apple podcasts.

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Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, I'm loving this, I'm loving this. Where's your mama? Yeah, I said.

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Oh. It's been a long time, yeah, for her for any of us looking for the courage to live our lives as we choose. Well, hey, man, this is the show for us. Our family has known basketball legend Magic Johnson and his amazing wife, Cookie, for over 20 years. The Johnsons were faced with the choice embrace their vibrant son, E.J., who is boldly pushing boundaries with very provocative and daring choices or to try to push him to be something that is not.

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Let's go ahead and go set the table. I need that color, is that a Polish or something like that coating? It's a powder. It's a powder. OK, I need to get into that. We got Cookie and E.J. here with us today to.

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So happy to have you here. Yeah, real talk. I'm super excited for so many reasons. I think we have so much to talk about and I just want to talk about raising children outside of what is considered the norm because it's challenging.

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Yes. Yeah.

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First of all, how do you define gender fluidity in your eyes? I guess you're just in your floating in the spectrum.

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You're not really defined by any. Gender confines, if you will. I just feel like it's fluid because this is fluid. It's like nebulous. It's just like Willow's word of the day.

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Nebulously, I got word.

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Yes, it's really just I'm just like, yeah, people come up to me all the time and be like, so how do you just be normal? And I'm like, now you are.

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Shrimp's them out. That's like, no, that's like that's crazy like that. You know what is normal for you in your natural state. Do that. Yes.

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I just feel like the only times when it gets a little weird is like, OK, what's your bathroom like. Yeah. I don't know, I it's going to be like in like a skirt, like a look like it's doing the most.

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I'm like in the men's room and everyone's like and I'm like right now they're starting to do like male and female bathrooms and I even like the high end restaurants like made it like a sheet. Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah. To just be like oh like there's no labels go you know, like in the individual stalls or like a unisex. That's all they have. Like the men's. The women's. Oh I like that. That works for me. Yeah.

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I'm fine with that. That works for me.

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I love being able to sit here with the two of you because both of you have such courage and have been so brave to do you and be you.

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Yes. Yes. Cookie, what has it been like for you as a mom, as a mom? Well, you know, it wasn't easy.

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We're from the Midwest. You know, everything is straight laced.

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So when it first came about, I didn't know what to do about it. I didn't know because I know this it three.

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And that's when you noticed because he that's when he started wanting to put on the princess costumes at school, even at home, like he would come in my my closet, want to put on my shoes, or my mom had these really full skirts and he would like twirl around and he would want to push and then he would push them on and swirl around in them.

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But, you know, you always thought, OK, everything's a phase. So you think, oh, this is a fake, you know, he'll outgrow it.

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I won't worry about it. So we are five years old. We put them in sports and instead of catching the ball, he's in the in the field picking flowers and he runs up to mommy.

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Look what I found for you. You know, he's just I mean, the flowers, right?

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Was there ever a time in your life that you did conform, that you did play like a sport, basketball, baseball?

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I mean, I try, but it just didn't click after that. Then I started acting and doing theater, like when I was 15, me and my friend, who was also gay. But we had just come out to each other. So we thought that was a big deal. Yes. We'll talk the courage of that.

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We went to Hawaii once and I'm sitting behind him and his friend. You know how the girls go by their bathing suits and the guys go by.

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When the guys went by, they're like, oh, you know, like I girl I and nothing. OK, we need to have a talk.

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And the talk wasn't you can't be this. The talk was do you think you are? And I said before you answer that don't know that if you are, I'm OK with it. Right. And so he answered and he said, yes, I think I am. And I was like, well, OK, you know, we will love you and support you no matter what I'm like. This is what makes him happy. Let him be happy.

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But at that time, you can be happy in your room. But don't let that see.

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You know, it was all of that. And how was the journey for your father?

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My husband is the kind of person he reacts quickly. So everything that came to the top of his head, he just let it out.

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Hi, I'm Heidi Murkoff, host of What to Expect, a new podcast from My Heart Radio when I first wrote What to Expect When You're Expecting. My mission was simple to help parents know what to expect every step of the way on what to expect will answer your biggest pregnancy and parenting questions about everything from preconception planning to birth plan. Newborns sleep to toddler tantrums. Motherhood is the ultimate sisterhood, but it can be overwhelming if you don't know what to expect.

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Listen to what to expect on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Holly Fry.

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And I'm Tracy Wilson, and together we host a show called Stuff You Missed in History Class, as the name suggests, we talk about some things that maybe either you didn't remember from history class or they weren't covered at all. There have always been women in history. There have always been black people and other people of color. There have always been people all over the LGBTQ spectrum as a part of the historical record. Tracy, we've had some really interesting episodes recently.

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What's one of your favorites? The history of beekeeping, which we had to abridge, because that's very involved. How about you?

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I really, really enjoyed researching our episode on Seneca Village, which was a settlement in what became Central Park that was mostly populated by black people who actually owned the property there. And unfortunately, their time there was kind of a race. So if this kind of material sounds good to you, come listen to the show. We have new episodes on Mondays and Wednesdays and then a behind the scenes Minnesota on Friday and bonus classic episode from the archive on Saturday.

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You can find us on the I Heart radio app and Apple podcast or wherever it is you listen.

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Your father being Magic Johnson, an icon, one of the most famous athletes in the world, right.

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How was the journey for your father?

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When was it OK for him to play with dolls or to wear the dresses in the hat would just be something to be who he long time we had to talk with Dad, and that was a little tough.

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No, I know. You know, it was a little tough.

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My husband is the kind of person like he reacts quickly. So everything that came to the top of his head, he just let it out. And I was like, because it hurt my feelings.

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I know it probably hurt his feelings when he was in, you know, is not what I want it for my son. And do you realize what you're saying? Because, you know, the world is not going to like that and do you want to live this life? So afterwards, I told him I said I thought that was a little tough, you know, that wasn't right. And he didn't say anything.

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And then next day, the very next day, he went to your room, you tell it and just was like, we're going to get through this. And, you know, I just need time. And then we both just kind of started crying a little bit and.

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Yeah, but then I moved to New York to go to college. And when he came back to visit, he picked me up for dinner and he was like, you know, like, it's how you're here, where we love you. I went, you know, I'm just like, whatever hug you got and whatever. But he hugged me so hard, he almost like broke my back. Then at that point I was like, we're going to be OK.

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Right. You know, because, like, I could really feel the love. And then at that point I was like, you know, we're going to be fine.

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Yeah, it's tough because I know that you're trying to manage the husband and this is going to be OK.

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It's going to be OK and then managed to kids. All right. I'm figuring it out. Right. You know, and at the same time, managing yourself.

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Right, not trying. You're not losing yourself in it. And then at the same time having to deal with the world.

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Right. When Jaden got asked to do the women's campaign for Louis Vuitton and this kind of gender fluid fashion.

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You know, we'll called me be Will Smith, Will Smith, and you know what I mean, and he's like, nope, this my son is not supposed to be in a Louis Vuitton ad wearing skirts, but that is not.

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No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hold up. Is this a good idea? And I was like, well, you know what? Well, is what he wants.

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This is this is his expression. Mm hmm. And he said, OK, OK. But it was tight.

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It was tight, you know, and he was afraid it was uncomfortable because, you know, as dads, you know, it's a macho macho, you know.

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Yeah, he he told me he didn't want me to cut my hair. He didn't want Willow to shave. Do it.

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Yeah. All your femininity. As if my femininity was like in my hair. Yeah.

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You know, but you been working short hair. Well, yeah. Yeah. Short hair. Short hair. Yeah. But Willow was nine so he was like, you know what I mean.

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A little girl, little girls like you know, it's his little girl that wants you to stay a little girl as long as I can. Right.

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They want you in a place of where they can protect you. Yeah. That's what I really learned from Will. Yeah.

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And they think about what the world thinks. Yeah.

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Which is what he you know, his dad kept telling him there's just so much judgment in the world. Yeah. Yeah. Just begets itself. It's like insecurity then begets you're going to tell someone what they're doing wrong based on what you think you are doing wrong. Right. And then it's just a cycle of and then you can never cycle.

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Yeah.

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E.J., let's talk about your fashion for a second, because I have to tell you, you got some fierce fashion.

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Thank you.

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That means a lot to me right now. Your face is being. Honestly, I would always repost your outfit, photos, your amazing style, and I would constantly just be like, wow, I wish that I could even, like, dress myself like this. Well, I've always let the clothing speak to me.

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I've never been confined by whether this was in the men's section of the women's section. Like if I feel that this should be on my body, but it should be on my body, it's always been a lot for people to comprehend.

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You know, it took a long time for her to get used to it. But like, you know, it's just always who I was. And it was just difficult because, of course, your parents always want you to be normal.

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So, like, no one makes fun of you and like, in a protecting way of, yeah, we always want to write.

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But I think, you know, coming into adulthood, it was kind of like, I'm here now. And like, if somebody wants to make fun of me, like, I have to have my own back. And they prepared me for that, you know, coming into the world and strong back.

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Yeah, exactly. And it's really helped me, you know. So how did they do that?

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How did your parents how were they able to help you be able to walk into the world, especially in the age of social media?

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Because I was growing up social, we didn't have social media like this.

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I think like they gave me a good dose of nurturing and love, but also reality, you know, OK, I think they were like, we love you. Like, whatever, like, you know, live your life. But like, you need to know that, like, not everybody is going to have that same love and respect for you. And it's not going to be easy for some people. And, you know, you're going to have to understand that even when you're coasting and you think you're on top of the world, there's always one instance or one person that I have to be like, oh, right.

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You're that person. You are right.

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I feel like you kind of get that dose on if you're constantly on social media, especially about, you know, like getting that that dose comes a little sooner when you when you're looking at your phone and you're like, yeah, these are what people are saying, like, this is really cool.

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People aren't just me, people are just me. And and yeah, I just had to really learn how to block it, you know.

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Do you find that sometimes those are people who are just upset that they haven't granted themselves their own freedom?

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And it's like you don't get to do that, right? Because I don't get to be myself.

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You know, I find that I get that a lot more in person, even in people in the greater gender community or like I do whatever it's like sometimes I just just really weird disdain.

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And it's just mostly because, like, you feel like you can't be here, but like if you just open up and learn to let live and let go, like we could be here, but it's just like envy.

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It's always been so weird to me, A.J. The producers are telling me that you are dating now.

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What is that up I want to hear I is this I know I like totally leave her in the dark about my love life. I'm not dating anybody particular.

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I am dating like I go on dates. Right.

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What has it been since, you know, it's always been a struggle. It's you know, there's so many factors. First of all, it's like the celebrity thing, like who are you here for? You dating me.

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You're trying to date my dad. These men either just want to be there for one thing and then like don't want to stay for the real relationship hard or they just want to ride the wave and be and and have their picture taken and do all of that. So there's so much going on. But they can't get her. Exactly. You both end up crying in the corner, you know.

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So you haven't brought anyone special home to you?

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I hope not, because every time I would be ready to something happened. And then I'm like now. And I would never expose you to somebody that I didn't like that, you know, so hard like the White House.

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Yeah, I know.

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For me, wherever my parents are, it's like a sacred space for me.

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And so do you ever feel like that person may not be able to hold the the importance of that space?

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Definitely. And I think that that's why the reason why this one's really why there was no one telling you. Like, I bet just it just brought tears to my eyes because that's a lot to carry. I didn't even think about that not to care.

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It is, you know, even growing up, like our friends were definitely old friends that you knew and you preapproved of it.

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You know, we would never let some crazy person, you know, even if I was like, oh, so-and-so is coming over after school, do well who that would have been. Let me call him and see, you know, what this person is. So, you know, like that like I think about like I don't know her parents, but I know that what you're doing with your child. Right, right. Right.

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With the phone. But let me call this person mom. And like most of the time, like, absolutely not. I would never let you walk into the sacred walls of our sacred spaces.

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And you know what I have to say, Cookie?

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To have two fabulous children, I still care about what we think when I tell you what a. Man, I gave birth to a son that I didn't know. Mm hmm. Yeah, I understand. Hi, I'm Leah Remini and I am joined by Mike Rinder, and we are very excited to announce that we are continuing our journey with a new podcast called Scientology Fair Game. What is Fair Game?

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Fair game is a term in Scientology that that is used to describe what was used to describe the taking care of, and that's the euphemistic term threats and enemies of Scientology. What it really is, is a series of writings and policies, directives by L. Ron Hubbard that lay out how you go about destroying someone who is an enemy of Scientology. Listen to Scientology Fair Game on the Ihara radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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What happens when two therapists walk into a podcast and then hold people accountable for their advice? Hey, I'm Lori Gottlieb. I write the dear therapist advice column for The Atlantic and I'm Guy, which I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted. And we're the hosts of a new podcast from radio called Dear Therapist.

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One of the most frustrating things for us is advice columnist is that afterward no one gets to hear how the advice worked out.

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But on our show you will be guide people through a consultation and then have them come back and tell us what worked or didn't and what we can all learn from it.

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I was raised in a generation where men didn't show emotion. I am not good at words, but going through it has helped me grow in that sense.

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I've been dating a single dad for two years and his daughter, the six year old. She hates me one minute and loves me 10 minutes later.

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I don't want to lose sight of the negative feelings that I caused her.

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I just hope that at some point you can forgive me if you'd like to walk into our podcast, email us with your dilemma at Laury and Guy at Hope Media Dotcom.

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Listen to the therapists on Apple podcasts, the I Heart radio app over ever you get your podcasts. Our generations, we always it feels like we had to label things to understand this is this and that's how we how we make sense of it. Exactly.

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Because even when I was talking to Willow and she said something like, you know, it's not feminine or masculine. We don't worry about being a woman or man. You know, everything's changing. But it is beautiful. It is. But I must say it's taken some getting used to, you know, because Jaden and Willow have always been different.

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They were born that way.

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It wasn't a lot of people think that it came from my rearing. But no, I just so happened that that's how they came into the world. And I had to get in order.

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Right. Because I'm open. I had to be open enough to receive it.

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And because you have all of those societal norms weighing on you, you know, me coming from Baltimore and coming from a very rugged like, you know, where men were men and like weakness, you get hurt.

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You know, there wasn't a whole lot of room for all of that was a whole lot of women. So I gave birth to a son that I didn't know.

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Mm hmm. Yeah, I understand.

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You know what I'm saying? Uh huh. Jaden so sweet.

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You know, I went through a process of oh, my gosh, what a beautiful child. And then I went through, oh, I'm fearful he'll go into the world. He's going to get eaten up. Right.

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And then learning to have that trust in him, you know, that they got it right.

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The things that you guys go through and are able to go through with that I don't give a right attitude is just amazing to me.

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And it seems to be deepening with each generation because I know even when I was coming up and what you allowed me to do when I was dye my hair before the purples and blues and all that work, and you know what I'm saying?

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And I was an art school kid that was considered a weirdo, you know what I mean? And my mother was like, do you? Right. I know I learned a lot having you guys, you know, sitting here because families we're all trying to figure stuff out.

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The fact that you all can be in the world and be OK in your own skin is such a wonderful thing for me.

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Talking to both of you, it just helps me have the courage to be a little bit more brave in my own journey.

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You know, this is where I would like to tell our parents out there, if you have a child, listen to them, talk to them, let them be who they are, because eventually they're going to do that anyway. So you might as well just be a part of it. You know, don't don't fight it and then end up being the enemy. Yeah, it's also your evolution as well. Yeah. Like you are evolving through him face each stage.

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And I do think that you make such a beautiful point, Willow.

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And the idea that, you know, we give life to our children and we're told as parents, we're here to guide them and we're here to teach them. And I think we often forget how much our kids teach us. Yes. Yes. What a blessing. Yes, yes. Oh, yes, I learned a lot today. On our next roundtable talk, one of the funniest women out there, my girl, Tiffany Haddish, when somebody asked me out on a date, I will make some time.

[00:23:33]

I was texting with Drake, who was like, we should hang out sometime. I'm like, I'm going to make a thousand dollars. Right. But I was trying to see what that got in his bank. No, I'm not really black. As far as the rise, what has been the best part when Beyonce, they say my name is. I made it about. Facebook, what's good faces here for you? Give me your questions and you have the answers yet, please share your experiences.

[00:24:08]

Yes, because we're on this journey together. Yes. To join the red table, talk family and become a part of the conversation, follow us at Facebook dot com slash red tabletop. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Tablecloth podcast produced by Facebook Watch Westbrooke Audio and I heart radio.

[00:24:27]

What happens after an advice columnist signs off on our new show? Dear Therapists from My Heart Radio, we find out. I'm Lori Gottlieb from The Atlantic and I'm Guy Winds from Ted.

[00:24:38]

And each week we sit down with a listener for a consultation. Then we ask them to come back on and tell us what happened. You can email us with your own dilemma at Lorien Guy at IHOP Media dot com.

[00:24:50]

Listen to dear therapists on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Baby, love my baby, love. Hi, I'm Heidi Murkoff, host of What to Expect, a new podcast from My Heart Radio. When I first wrote What to Expect When You're Expecting I was pregnant with my daughter Emma, and my mission was simple to help parents know what to expect every step of the way. That mission has grown a lot, but it hasn't changed.

[00:25:26]

Fast forward now. Emma's a mom. Hey, guys, we're teaming up to answer your biggest pregnancy and parenting questions from breastfeeding to sleep. Good tackling tantrum. Motherhood is the ultimate sisterhood, but it can be overwhelming if you don't know what to expect. Listen to what to expect on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Šamaš Are you ready, Mom? I was born ready.