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[00:00:03]

Well, hello, everyone. Is Leah Remini and I'm joined by my partner, Mike Orinda. Hello, Mike. Hi, Leah. It's good to be right back.

[00:00:12]

I know you do. And for those of you who don't know who we are and why we're partnered up again, Mike and I did a a show for A&E, a documentary series on the abuses exposing the abuses of Scientology. And we did that for three seasons. And we we ended that series. And obviously the conversation needs to continue and continue in a different way.

[00:00:38]

And I don't like what W said to me, like it. Just be great if we could talk.

[00:00:46]

So the series is called Fair Game and we should discuss. Mike, why don't you discuss what Fair Game is from your perspective, being that you were ahead of the department that executed the activities that follow under the policies and directives of Fair Game?

[00:01:02]

What is fair game? Fair games, a term in Scientology that that is used to describe what was used to describe the. Taking care of. And that's the euphemistic term. OK. Threats and enemies of Scientology.

[00:01:19]

What it really is, is a series of writings and policies, directives by L. Ron Hubbard that lay out how you go about destroying someone who is an enemy of Scientology and an enemy of Scientology is anybody who speaks. Out about Scientology in a way that is not authorized by Scientology or seeks to expose the abuses that are ongoing or to control in any way, shape or form the activities of Scientology, such as the government or the FBI or any other law enforcement agency.

[00:02:01]

So your mother, whose child you have not seen, who is in Scientology in the Sea Org, you haven't seen them in 10 or her from them. You're worried about them after watching going clear the aftermath and reading Scientology. But you know, people who've exposed Scientology, you go to the police and you just say, I just want a welfare check done on my child who's in Scientology. Are you fair game to Scientology?

[00:02:25]

Absolutely. You will have a private investigator on your doorstep before you can shake a stick out of your journalist.

[00:02:32]

Just doing a story about Scientology. You're not trying to attack Scientology. You just reporting the facts. But it's not complimentary Scientology because you're reporting facts on Scientology. It isn't complimentary. So are is that person fair game?

[00:02:46]

Absolutely. You'll have video and probably a Freedom magazine cover up on you within a week.

[00:02:52]

Now, what's Freedom magazine is at another front group of Scientology?

[00:02:55]

Yes, it's the Scientology mouthpiece propaganda organ which is used to distribute information about people Scientology doesn't like. And when I say information, I mean falsehoods. Right.

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You're a person who's not a Scientologist and go in and decide you want nothing to do with Scientology. And you go and you tell people, listen, this costs thousands and thousands of dollars.

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I don't think it's it's you should do it. It's like a money making scheme. Are you fair game to Scientology? Absolutely. OK.

[00:03:30]

OK. So it doesn't matter if you're a Scientologist, were a Scientologist. You're just fair game. If you do anything outside of what Scientology says you should do or say. Correct.

[00:03:41]

That's a perfect, perfect summation of what fair game is.

[00:03:46]

Now, Scientology claims that this policy of fair game is canceled and they have given to the press.

[00:03:53]

Proof of this. And Mike, why don't you explain that?

[00:03:59]

Well, the cancellation, Leah, is a statement by L. Ron Hubbard that says we're no longer going to use the term fair game because it creates bad public relations. However, we do not change how we deal with the enemies of Scientology.

[00:04:15]

All right. And the press never understood. They just accepted that as an answer as opposed to going, oh, it just means that you don't put it in writing that we're doing fair game. Right.

[00:04:25]

Or or you weren't here as Scientologists use that word does. They'll say, oh, we never use that. We never. We don't have a fair game policy. So. But Mahboba. But if you ask them about the details of do you have a policy that says you should destroy your enemies? That critics are all criminals, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. They can't deny that.

[00:04:48]

But unfortunately, generally, the media are unfamiliar with all those things. Exactly. When I come in.

[00:04:54]

Right. And that's the other thing is that L. Ron Hubbard said that for anyone to be against Scientology's policies and principles is evil and hell bent on Unbe has a punishment for what Mike disorder's junction kind.

[00:05:10]

Yes. And we pour light and they are the light. And anyone who goes against Scientology is a criminal. Now, understand that when L. Ron Hubbard writes something, it is true. It cannot be assimilated. It cannot be understood by you and me in different ways. It has to be understood exactly the way it's written. All Scientologists are mandated to read policies. And we all know the same thing. So we all read the same thing except confidential.

[00:05:39]

Sea Org directors like Mike is talking about the fair game directors. Parishioners are not exactly privy to those things, but they are.

[00:05:51]

We are were all indoctrinated to believe that anyone who speaks out against Scientology, whether it's true or not, is a criminal.

[00:06:01]

So Scientology and Scientologists have to make that true, understand that what you are going to see from Scientology and Scientologists are like all these celebrity Scientologists. They all have to make.

[00:06:21]

The person who is speaking out to be evil and or a criminal. So they have to believe that. So in moving forward, we could just look forward to lots of well, you know, you should look at the person talking and all that, right, Mike?

[00:06:40]

Yep. Absolutely.

[00:06:41]

Find out for yourself. And listen, Scientologists, people have found out for themselves. I know you don't have a new line because L. Ron Hubbard is dead and he's not coming back, which is what you believe. So they have to follow the same shit, Mike. They can't even come up with a new line because it's not what L. Ron Hubbard said. Ron, find out for yourself. Say that, OK? They have motherfuckers. That's why nobody is going into Scientology.

[00:07:09]

Sorry. Go ahead.

[00:07:11]

Exactly. The restrictions that people don't understand who just watch a TV show and they. Yes, they don't understand how much stuff goes into it that you never get to show. Right.

[00:07:24]

And you never get to you know, it really wasn't about us, which was, you know, not our role was not to tell our stories or to interject, you know, what we thought because we agreed with everything everybody said who had horrible experience with Scientology because we had our own experiences.

[00:07:44]

But we were doing this program as a way to give a voice to those who really didn't have one.

[00:07:52]

Because when we started the show, all that was really being talked about was a Scientology as far as Scientology abuses is concerned is online. You know, you did an amazing interview on on with the Tampa Bay Times and you were on CNN. You were in going clear, but there was nothing on a weekly basis that was exposing Scientology.

[00:08:17]

And so we were very happy to to to do the program.

[00:08:22]

And and you're right, Leah, you know, we felt the conversation needed to continue in a different way. Well, hang on, Mike. Wait, wait.

[00:08:30]

We we just couldn't continue to sit there and listen to horrific story after horrific story without doing something.

[00:08:41]

And the aftermath served its purpose and that it went from people thinking it's an innocuous calls. You know, Tom Cruise, he's wacky guy, you know, jumping on a couch to holy shit, this is a dangerous, vile cult.

[00:08:58]

Right. And and also, I think, Leah, very importantly, people recognize it could be me.

[00:09:05]

All right. These experiences that people had, the abuse that they suffered, it's not just happening in the to fringe people who are weirdos who could very well just be me.

[00:09:19]

I could have gotten caught up in this and I could have been victimized, too, by Scientology. And I think that almost beyond anything was the astonishing accomplishment that the victims accomplished by being on the show.

[00:09:36]

They showed that they had just normal, real likable, genuine people. Men got got mistreated and abused. Right.

[00:09:47]

Right. And I think that's the same. You know, I had that idea about other cults. You know, I mean, like, well, that would never happen to me. And people said, you know, after watching the show, I totally get how, you know, Mary Kahn got into it. I get how Mike Rinder got into it. I get why you stayed. I get why you put up with the abuse. And so I think we've accomplished what we were going to accomplish there.

[00:10:11]

Now, Scientology is running around saying that they got our show canceled, which is amazing. Because, I mean, if they're admitting to their fair game tactics, which we're gonna talk about in a minute. But this is what Scientology does. You know, when you speak out and tell the truth, they go after you and try to discredit you.

[00:10:30]

And it, amongst other things, like destroying your life and your family.

[00:10:34]

But Ed Parkin, who who by the way, I'm excited to have this podcast because people like Ed Parkin, who is a an employee of Scientology, he works for Scientology as a Sea Org member, which means he lives communally with other Sea Org members.

[00:10:53]

Scientology pays for this man's life. He does not have any outside life other than Scientology business. And this is what they do all day, all night for 50 dollars a week. And they sign billion year contracts. And he's a Scientology employee parading around as well. What does he call himself like a defender of the First Amendment? Yeah.

[00:11:19]

Yeah. Polder of human rights, champion of the First Amendment. What's right and what's so funny about him and all of Scientology's front groups, which we should dedicate a show to. By the way. Yeah.

[00:11:32]

Front groups of Scientology that infiltrate real charitable organizations, real organizations who really do work to protect the First Amendment.

[00:11:47]

They infiltrate these organizations to appear as though they're legitimate. And what they should know is that you are giving them the legitimacy that they want by going well.

[00:12:00]

I mean, I don't want to get into any kind of scuffle with Scientology, but we will we'll continue to do the work and expose it and allow, you know, these pussies to get away with what they're doing.

[00:12:14]

But Ed Parkin is has a special place in my heart because he is so creepy. He he's just so creepy. And he shows up. He shows up to to court. I mean, he he was at Vallerie Haney's court appearance.

[00:12:33]

We're hearing hearings are he notes he was taking notes. He showed up to something having to do with the Danny Masterson case. This is just what he does and this is what Scientology does as part of their fair game tactics. Now, Ed Parkin's running around on Twitter and social media going. We got Mike and Lee on this show off the air.

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And, you know, Ed, keep it coming because the lawsuits will be huge, that you are responsible for your claiming responsibility for getting me and Mike fired off of our program. Is that right? Right.

[00:13:08]

Yeah, that's exactly right. He's not the only one.

[00:13:10]

The reason only reason I bring up creepy Eddie Parkin is because from the Stand League is because recently Danny Masterson has been charged with three counts of rape.

[00:13:25]

Correct? Yes, absolutely. He will be arraigned on September 18th. So, you know, we'll we'll be soon. We'll be following that, of course, and talking about that. But what we want to talk about is that's happened since the show, since we since we wrapped the aftermath. And people always ask, like, what's going on? Are you guys still working? Mike and I are always working. There is a group of us. And it's not just me and Mike.

[00:13:53]

I mean, I could never give you a list of of people who have been fighting to expose Scientology many years before me and Mike and I are still doing it. And so we all continue to join forces to. We've met with the FBI.

[00:14:10]

We've met with police departments. We're talking to further victims were putting those people in touch with the authorities. We continue to try to connect the dots and provide law enforcement with any information they need on how Scientology will try to evade criminal charges against them.

[00:14:33]

But they've been doing that for decades. So since then, Mike, you mean we're all being fair, gamed constantly. The people who are coming forward who have lawsuits against Scientology are being fair, gamed as we speak. Law enforcement is well aware of it. And we just continue to to. Well, we'll just continue to bring that to you.

[00:14:56]

Yeah, absolutely. And and, Leah, I think that's something that else that we now have that we have never had before, whereas an outlet that allows us to talk about what's going on right now. Right. What's just happened?

[00:15:12]

How to interpret things that are going on because Scientology hasn't stopped the abuses.

[00:15:20]

Right. They just carry on as if nothing ever happened. So they need to continue to be exposed. And we now have an opportunity to be able to do that in a much more in-depth fashion than we have ever done before. Right.

[00:15:36]

Whatever it's going to take to be able to get the whole story out that we've never been able to tell before. Right.

[00:15:43]

Because we spoke to the three alleged victims of Danny Masterson four years ago, and we did a finale where we spoke to one that we had previously spoken to, Chrissy Bixler. And then a new victim came forward, Bobette, and she was not a Scientologist, and that was in the finale. Something needs to be done about Scientology and the obstruction of justice and that these women came forward and they told the Church of Scientology and the Church of Scientology has this information.

[00:16:20]

Had this information, not only these victims, but countless, Mike, I mean countless amount of victims in their folders.

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And I wanted you to talk about a little bit about the folder's mike and the process of what happens when something like this happens, where let's take somebody who was molested or raped in Scientology as a child or just as a young man or woman. What happens from your from your position of being the head of the Office of Special Affairs who deals with this internally in Scientology?

[00:17:00]

What happens?

[00:17:01]

The first thing that happens, Leah, is that everybody who knows anything about it is rounded up and everybody else is told to shut up.

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If a report comes in that there has been a case of child sexual abuse, then the the perpetrator of the abuse, the victim of the abuse and anybody else who may have known anything about it are all rounded up by the Office of Special Affairs and corralled and cut off from the rest of the Scientology world in order to be able to control the message and control the information that may get out to law enforcement or the media. The next thing that happens is that the people who have been victimized, the victims are interrogated.

[00:18:00]

And as you know and as we've explained in in slight slightly, but not in great detail, the concept in Scientology is that whatever happens to you is a result of your own mis deeds.

[00:18:16]

Right.

[00:18:17]

So, for example, if I go to Scientology counselor and I say, listen, I, I was just molested by another Scientologists. They put me on the meter on the Scientology lie detector.

[00:18:30]

And they say, okay, so what did you do to receive that? What did you do?

[00:18:38]

And you're like, well, I can't rape anybody. I mean, I'm not I don't have a penis. I mean, I really can't insearch search something into another side. I have never done anything similar. Have you ever touched anybody inappropriately? Have you ever this. And if I can't find an answer this lifetime, they'll ask me for a time in another lifetime where I was a man and molested another boy or girl.

[00:19:02]

And that is their way of saying somehow this is your fault, whether from this lifetime or another lifetime. And you're supposed to go, Oh, I see. So it was my fault. I, I received this action because I did it to another person. Right.

[00:19:17]

And and the vital importance of that and why the victim is always the first person to be dealt with is once you get someone to that point, whether they have agreed that they caused it or they are responsible for it, they're not going to go running to law enforcement. They are contained. Yeah, yeah, they're contained, perfect word. Now, when you as an OSA representative, would you if somebody said to you a Scientologist says, you know, Mr.

[00:19:50]

Mike Rinder, I want to go report this to the police. I don't believe this person is going to get fixed. What? What what is Oza and Scientology saying to everybody who is witness to this or knew that this was happening?

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Well, there are a lot of a lot of Scientology principles that come into play.

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But the first one is what is the greatest good land that is an idea in Scientology that one acts only for the best of all of everything.

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And everybody is right in that in this case in Scientology. That means what's best for Scientology, because Scientologists all believe that Scientology is helping every man, woman and child on Earth reach internal spiritual salvation.

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So what's good for Scientology is good for everybody.

[00:20:46]

No, but let's say, yeah, I get that in those terms, but in real terms and like street terms, Mike, I mean, you just the bottom line is every celebrity Scientologist, every Scientologist who was witness to any crime in Scientology knows that what people are saying is true.

[00:21:08]

If it didn't happen to them, it happened to somebody that they know, but they just are like, shut the fuck up. Don't go and tell the police you're fucking with Scientology. Like, yeah, he did that. That's fucked up.

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But you don't go and tell the police because that's against you don't go and talk about it, which is whether you're going to the police, Mike, about a heinous crime like rape or being molested or doing a show like we're doing on the aftermath world where parents are just talking about their kids disconnecting from them.

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It's the same mentality. Scientologists are just they just believe you. OK, that happened. But don't you stepped over the line when you let the police know or why you went public with the show or you went on a podcast or you went on to the aftermath or going clear, like that's all they care about because of what you're saying, because it's the greatest good for the group.

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So, yes, of course, that probably happened. But, you know, maybe one day he'll get fixed with Scientology. But you don't talk about it.

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Absolutely not.

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Bad PR is the driving force of Scientology.

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There's two things that drive Scientology money and good or bad PR when it comes to matters of crimes or abuses or whatever. That is all related to good PR for Scientology or bad PR for Scientology. Is there going to be bad media? Is this going to reflect badly on their image, et cetera, et cetera?

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And also, Mike, on top of the Danny Masterson, the district attorney's office filing charges against Danny Masterson also there.

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It's also there's also another civil suit going about Scientology, fair gaming the victims.

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Right. And covering up and working to obstruct justice.

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But, Mike, isn't that what you did all day, all night? As a person who worked for OSA?

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I mean, tell me, Mike, that our tell our our audience, isn't this what you did with Lisa McPherson, with the IRS, with every crime that's happened in Scientology, you destroy evidence. We'll talk about that lately.

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It there is nothing that is outside the realm of what can be done when it comes to protecting Scientology from criminal prosecution or bad public relations or whatever, as is deemed.

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This is not acceptable. So we as soon as it's decided that either you're an enemy or this is unacceptable or we don't want this in the press or we don't want this going to law enforcement, there is no holds barred, Leah.

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Materials get destroyed, evidence gets destroyed, witnesses get disappeared. They get sent like if there is a witness to a crime. And there appears that perhaps law enforcement is going to show up to subpoena or stop talking to that witness, poof, they're gone to Denmark or study U.S. law.

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But, Mike, why don't you give us an example, a real example where you. There was something going on and you said, OK, here's what we're doing.

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Get the folders, everybody. And who's who heard about it? Get her off to Sweden. I mean, like what? Did you give us a real example?

[00:24:35]

Well, the root of the probably the best example. Was the Lisa McPherson case. OK, so here's a who was a was a Scientologist, a young woman in Clearwater, Florida. Right.

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And the people who knew and had information about what had happened to Lisa McPherson and how she died were rounded up immediately. Evidence that was contained in her pricklier file, which is the folder that Scientology keeps on every individual of all of the counselling procedures that they go through and everything that they have to say.

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And like that, that's an important point. Every Scientologist has a Scientology folder. And we keep saying this to law enforcement. If you ever wanted to catch Scientology for what they've been doing to people for five decades, you would only need to do what you did in 1977, FBI, which is read Scientology. And there you found their crimes in writing, because here's the good news. There is a policy that L. Ron Hubbard wrote that said everything must be in writing.

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And you couldn't ask. You could. Yes, it is a goldmine of crimes. And those who hid it. Those who knew about it. The obstruction.

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Just the obstruction of it might drive me insane, as you can hear in my voice. It drives me insane. When we're asked over and over and so has everybody else who loves Scientology, what can we do? We say the same thing. Raid the files. It's all there in the folders, everybody.

[00:26:13]

Every crime Scientology has ever committed is in the folders that they're not allowed to get rid of only in moments like this, Mike. But they would get caught because the policy on how to write things down in someone's folder is very specific. So if you see page one and you don't see page three, you could say, well, where's fuckin page three? Well, I guess now you're under arrest for obstructing justice.

[00:26:44]

So you were told by whom to to destroy evidence and people's folders?

[00:26:51]

Well, actually, it was Marty Rathbun who was told by David Miscavige, the leader of doing this in coordination with a lawyer at the time, who was the in-house lawyer for Scientology.

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But those materials were literally shredded.

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The witnesses who had been in contact with Lisa McPherson, most of whom were maids that were in the hotel at the Fort Harrison Hotel, which is the Scientology headquarters in Clearwater, and had no medical license.

[00:27:25]

They had no they had no business taking care of somebody who was sick and needing medical attention.

[00:27:30]

They they didn't even know how to clean rooms. They were just women, literally. There were five of them, I think women from Central and South America who had been brought in on a legal religious worker visas and had ended up being room cleaners who were given the responsibility of watching over this woman before she died.

[00:27:58]

Those women went back to their homes in South America or Central America or when I gave them a door.

[00:28:06]

But Mike, police could interview them. Just want to confront you. They didn't go home.

[00:28:13]

They were sent sent home by cytology to avoid being questioned by the police because they were somewhat responsible for the death of Lisa McPherson under the direction of David Miscavige and flag land base employees. Sea Org members. Right. Right. OK. So and this is usual.

[00:28:34]

There are people who.

[00:28:35]

So if there is not, they need Leah. Yes.

[00:28:39]

I will say that there's testimony about destruction of evidence from Vicki hasn't ran from Jesse. Prints from Marty Rathbun. All former seniors, seniors, senior officials of David Miscavige, his organization, Religious Technology Center there.

[00:28:55]

I know for a fact that when the IRS was investigating Scientology, there were very senior Scientology officials mocking befriend friend Harris and some others who were whisked off to Denmark to get out of the IRS jurisdiction so they couldn't be subpoenaed or questioned by the IRS about what was going on with the finances of Scientology.

[00:29:28]

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For more information, go to what to expect. Project dot org. Hi, welcome to the show. We'll be OK. The facts are having a moment.

[00:30:26]

Everybody has a podcast now, right? Every celebrity. Everybody you knew in college. Every family member at least once. There are literally hundreds of thousands of podcasts out there. Yeah, it's a bit of a mess. So I figured, what the heck? What's Woodmore? I'm Nick Quar. And my new show, Seven A Pod. We'll give you the most interesting and important stories in podcasting. We'll talk to producers, entertainers and journalists.

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Listen to seven iPod on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:31:18]

So this fair game, this avoiding of subpoenas, like you're saying, to avoid being questioned and and how intelligent is this? What's going on now as we speak with, let's say, Danny Masterson? What is happening right now in Scientology? And what can we expect moving forward? Because I seen Kirstie Alley not not because she she hasn't she's blocked me, as all pushy Scientologists do. But, you know, sometimes we get people copy and paste the tweets of this lunatic's tweets where she's she's, of course, defending Danny as so as well.

[00:31:56]

So, ah, go going to be all Scientologists, Volf, not just Sea Org members, but the friends of and all Scientologists are going to come forward and they're going to do what.

[00:32:10]

Well, I thought you wanted to know first about what do we expect is going to happen.

[00:32:14]

Yeah. And then we have. Yeah. The first thing that we expect is going to happen is the key people who knew about what happened with these alleged rapes of Danny Masterson, most notably Angie LeClaire, who was the person that did the Scientology counselling interviews en masse. Listen. And some of the victims.

[00:32:38]

Right. They're going to disappear. They're going to suddenly be reassigned to locations outside of the jurisdiction of the L.A. district attorney's office. Most likely outside the country. Most likely. Angie LeClaire already is sitting on the Freewinds, the Scientology ship that's sitting in some port in Curacao or Aruba or somewhere. And outside of any jurisdiction of any police force in the world.

[00:33:12]

Interesting, because, you know, it's interesting about like like I would say, OK, well, I know Angie, right? Angie, if I knew very well because Angie was my counselor in Scientology. And as I told you the picture of Angie, I say, hey, Mike, let's throw the picture of Angela Clare on your blog.

[00:33:26]

And if anybody seen here's the thing, you're not going to see Angie because like you said, they put her on a freaking ship with Scientologist and sewer members and she will not allow to leave, be allowed to leave that ship. So we'll never see Angie again.

[00:33:46]

If she if she is on the Freewinds, she will be out of sight for the next five years. Right. Like other people who have disappeared. So that's a standard practice from Oza via David Miscavige to.

[00:34:02]

OK, let's reel it in. Who is involved? Who knows about it? Ship those Sea Org members out of the jurisdiction of law enforcement. Right. Right. That's the first thing they want.

[00:34:12]

And then then then get every person who is a potential witness or could be a witness. It's going to look too obvious if everybody just disappears. So all the other witnesses that we want to say positive things, get them with an attorney and get them being briefed and drilled. So everybody's story is the same. So you say get drilled.

[00:34:38]

What do you mean, Mike? What do you mean by that? Like, you're gonna put it like let's say I'm a parishioner and I and I knew Danny, which I did. You would pull me into a room at a Scientology organization and you would say what to me?

[00:34:50]

You'd say what I would say. OK, so you may be interviewed. And here is the questions that are likely to be asked of you when you're interviewed. And I want to hear how you're going to answer them.

[00:35:02]

And I might start by saying, have you ever seen Danny Masterson sexually abused someone? And you answer no. Well, no. And I would say no. That's not an acceptable answer. Yes, the well, no is OK, but you need to say, well, no.

[00:35:19]

And he was happily married and he is had been in a in a happy, monogamous relationship the entire time I have known him.

[00:35:29]

And what have I say to you, Mike? Sea Org member Lea is a Scientologist. I'm bored. I got the here's the thing, Mike. I mean, I did know Danny to be quite a bit of an asshole. You know, he wasn't and was abusive to his Scientology staff. I mean, you know, that like, he was just he.

[00:35:43]

That's that's that's irrelevant. And not something that you need to be talking about. Waterdog, to take that back. You don't want me to say that. OK. Let's get back to the answer to the question, which is, have you seen Danny involved in sexually abusing anybody now?

[00:35:59]

Give me your answer again and let's make sure that you get it right this time.

[00:36:03]

OK, I'm going to say no. And he's happily married. Good. Great. OK, so I'm going to spring that one on you again, like a couple of minutes down the road after we talked about some other things and see if you can still answer the right way. Like, you're scaring me already, Mike. I'm already feeling very, very I'm feeling very scared. But we ask anybody who is listening to this can see this in action with the with the Anderson Cooper in Shuai interview of the ex wives of the of of me and Marty Rathbun.

[00:36:40]

And so you, Elkins.

[00:36:41]

But you're you're. Yes, you're right, because they were very drilled. They seemed very well. They seemed psychotic. But but they just they had the same answer. They all said the same thing. And then they acted like they were about to say something else. But then they said the same thing again. And that you're saying is coming from being locked in a room with somebody like you. And Mike, you know, I have to say, like you just even doing that little bit of a, you know, reenactment, like you were not even being the mike render that you're supposed to be right.

[00:37:16]

But I was already feeling like I was back in Scientology the way it was, like when we were sitting down ready for John Sweeney.

[00:37:24]

Right. I mean, this is it. We've done this, Leah. You know, you and I did this when John Sweeney was doing his Panorama program. And we you and Anne Archer and Kirstie and whoever else were being interviewed. And we sat and we said, okay, here's the story. This guy's a drunk, he's a blah, he's a blah. This is what you need. Here's the message. Blah, blah, blah. And that's what then happens.

[00:37:49]

Right. So that. So you're saying that's what happened with every person, whether they were a Sea Org member or friend of Danny Masterson? It doesn't matter. They're all going to be pulled in and drilled to say this, that Danny was a great guy. These are all charges.

[00:38:07]

This is being done for publicity, for money, for a television show, whatever the fuck they're going to say.

[00:38:13]

And this is all part of the Scientology script that we could look forward to come hopefully to trial.

[00:38:22]

Yes. And we will see this unless, of course, Danny Masterson decides to tell the truth, in which case. And by the way, hell will break loose. And Scientology, by the way, because Scientology knows that it's true.

[00:38:35]

They're not going to decide to tell the truth, lawyer. They will never decide to tell the truth. It could go that Danny Masterson decides to tell the truth and explain as a sort of a way out. This is what happened. Here's what Scientology told me. This is how they said this was going to be handled. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. In which case, if he turns on them, he will get dumped on basalts.

[00:39:00]

Scientology will still not tell the truth about how they covered it up.

[00:39:05]

But Mike, being that you're you were in Oza, okay? You were in Oza. And you you're seeing the folder's.

[00:39:11]

You're seeing the folder's. You're seeing when it was when it was reported to Scientology in 2003. Right. 2004. You're seeing that.

[00:39:21]

So, you know, it's true. How do you in your right mind then pull out the lawyer for Scientology and go, they're liars, that's it, you say, knowing that it's true?

[00:39:37]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Without question. That is what will happen.

[00:39:42]

So you wouldn't even tell the truth to the lawyers, not the lawyers. Have to know the truth, don't they?

[00:39:48]

Mm. Depends. It depends. That's a decision that has to be made on a case by case basis.

[00:39:55]

So no one in the room of the Church of Scientology will go, guys. Well, I don't.

[00:40:01]

This is not. Okay. Look, we're lying.

[00:40:04]

L. Ron Hubbard says tell the truth, doesn't he. Somewhere. I mean, anywhere. Got like one renin. Right.

[00:40:10]

But you're insane. So there's not one moment of why are we going to go this far when we know it's true?

[00:40:19]

Why not give Danny up and save themselves?

[00:40:23]

Because they if they give Danny up, they're afraid that Danny will turn on them and then they will not save themselves, because then the entire conspiracy that has gone on of covering up the evidence and keeping the witnesses away from telling the truth and persuading them not to tell the truth and intimidating and threatening them will all come out. And that is Scientology's worst nightmare.

[00:40:47]

And by the way, everybody, you should know that this is what's been going on since the. The victims survivors came forward. Scientology has been fair gaming them consistently for four years. And it's still happening today.

[00:41:05]

You might be like, well, how could they be doing that? Well, it happens. And then they report it to the proper authorities. So that's all that they can do. I mean, Scientology has a way of telling a line when it comes to intimidation and the law. Right. They know it very well and they know when they can cross it. And when they can't. And so having people stalk you and go through your garbage, unfortunately, is not illegal when certain lines haven't been crossed.

[00:41:36]

For example, in California, it has to be the same person three times to be considered stalking. So and then that varies from state to state. So that's what we can expect going forward is more fair game. And somehow you and I are related to that. Like, I don't know how Scientology has concocted the story that they are doing this because as you or me or me, just me or you, we force them to come forward for a television show.

[00:42:06]

And if we tell the story, doesn't mean we're doing that for the purpose of doing a television show. We're telling the story because they weren't receiving justice. You see, that's what the news is for you fucking idiots. That's what documentaries are for you. Schmucks like you. No, if we didn't have documentary series, if we didn't have documentaries, if we didn't have the news, if we didn't have iPhones, if we did, a lot of issues would not be known about.

[00:42:44]

So for Scientology, you continue to use this line. And like, by the way, think there's any money really in documentary making Dark and the hope to document? What am I trying to say?

[00:42:57]

So I can manage documentary filmmaking like there's not a whole lot of money. Lucrative business, not the most lucrative business. Correct. Correct.

[00:43:06]

And by the way, when you do make money, it's a lot of fucking work for a small amount of money.

[00:43:11]

I can make more money in one fucking day doing acting, selling douches or tampons than in the whole fuckin three seasons of the aftermath.

[00:43:24]

Yeah, well, you know, that's that's what Scientology does, right?

[00:43:30]

They say that everybody is doing it because they have an axe to grind Brave's.

[00:43:38]

They want to make money because they want their 15 minutes of fame because like, they've got reasons for everything except. They're abusing people. Right. That never comes up. They never say. Well, the reason we're all this well is the stuff appearing in the media is because we're doing bad stuff. No, it's only because there is someone with an ill motive who is exposing it.

[00:44:06]

Well, it's funny that you said that because you, as we're talking about earlier, saying, you know, they're drilled on what to say and everybody has to say the same thing. And if you look at Scientologist and I'm talking celebrity Scientologists, I'm talking Sea Org members, Scientologists, they all say the same thing. Don't believe the news. Find out for yourself. These people have an axe to grind. Oh, look, the enemies are attacking because we're winning and we're doing all these great things and find out for yourself by looking at all the fake things we're pretending that we're doing for mankind.

[00:44:41]

But but listen, Mike, these are the lines that I would say because I was drilled on what to say to the public as well. And when something like this broke the news, I would go in and say, what's the real fucking deal like what's happening here that this motherfucker do this shit? Well, you know, that's not import. What's important is that you say this, this and this. Yeah. But I want to know, is this shit true?

[00:45:02]

Was Mike Rinder beaten? Was Marty Rathbun beaten? Are these people at gold being beaten? I want to know. And the answer that was given to me when I pushed and push and push cause I would not let it go with the answer of look. That's just an enemy line. You know that Mike was doing horrific things and he was actually expelled from the Sea Org in the scene with Marty Rathbun. And we by the way, little side note, we should talk about Marty Rathbun pretty soon here.

[00:45:30]

So what I was told, particularly when you guys were in the news, when you were doing Anderson Cooper and when you you did a lengthy article, a series in the Tampa Bay Times, and you were speaking, you were Marty Buratha.

[00:45:42]

And I was told that you two were doing the beatings, that you two were actually the criminals. And I was shown confidential session. You know, your your when you go into Scientology security, checking your shot, you or you confess to crimes, you know, crimes in quotes like play ontology crimes. We are shown those things where you admitted to not being like really dedicated Sea Org member, where you might have been late in there. Like, see, here's his confessions.

[00:46:14]

I mean, he admits it himself. So here's what we want you to say. So at the end, that works. That worked for a little while.

[00:46:22]

I mean, Mike, you know, until there were too many of you saying the same thing at different times and other people that were not on television were saying that they saw that happen and they they weren't. They had gone to the police. They had as you guys had you had gone to the FBI. You guys have gone to local law enforcement.

[00:46:45]

And it was just getting too many of the same thing. It was just getting too much. So I eventually did my own investigation by calling you, which was a sin in Scientology, because you know how to verify what they say about you.

[00:46:59]

I mean, I don't even know what they're saying about me. Leah was having sex with animals. I don't know what they're saying. But, you know, friends of 35 years, is it you're you're inciting people to commit murder.

[00:47:10]

Right.

[00:47:11]

And, you know, Abel, everything I label, I have a hard time with my label maker. Yeah. I actually hump my label maker, and I don't know why they didn't say that. I think I confessed to that. I don't know why they don't put the truth out there. I mean, there's some shit in those folders that's, you know, I humped a teddy bear. I mean, like, I did some shit at my time.

[00:47:28]

My Daymo Dimer Labellers should be a sponsor of the show.

[00:47:33]

I think I agree. I mean, I don't know if they agree with me humping it. I didn't actually hump my dad, like, because I wouldn't want to because I'm also a very clean person. So I wouldn't. But I am in love with that label maker, which, you know, literally Scientology had a former friend of mine make a hate video about me because they also this is their in the business of making hate videos. What's the name of that place that that organ is that Scientology front group.

[00:48:00]

What are they pretending to be the the Scientology media productions.

[00:48:05]

No, freedom. Media ethics. I read media. Is this where they do the the hate Web sites? Yes. It's on us. Yeah. Yeah. Then one of them. Yeah. And then one of the heat videos they did on me was by a woman at a Clearwater, Florida, who has her own little story. And listen, you know, I'm going to say this to you, Scientologists in good standing, you should really think about what the fuck you say, because, you know, we y have information about YouTube, about your family.

[00:48:32]

And, you know, I have information on all of you. And I could talk about it, too. I could put out a Web site as well. But we don't do that because we're trying to really get information out there that's hurting people. And you're fair game. US in the way that you do really says a lot about who you really are as people. And so if you for one minute think it brainwash yourself into thinking you're a good person by doing what you're doing, you're sadly mistaken.

[00:48:59]

You need real help. And I would say that about all of us, Mike. You know, we all need help, which is why we were in Scientology. But Scientology did great damage to us and creates this other personality that justifies this heinous behavior that we were all engaged in. And they're still engaged in. Right. But anyway, this is what what they're doing is that they're running around. They're going to be doing this. Come this trial, they're going to continue to fair game.

[00:49:28]

Anyone? And I only plead with those who who know what happened in Scientology.

[00:49:36]

This is your chance to actually be a decent person and the right thing to do, even though you were taught that law enforcement was evil and the FBI is evil, the government's evil is evil. They mean you harm in the psychs are horrible and they're going to kill. You need to do the right thing by yourself. If if a crime has been committed against you, this is your time. And if you witnessed it, if you are aware of a crime, this is your time to come forward.

[00:50:04]

And I hope that, Mike, if one of them changed their mind. One of them who are aware of a crime in Scientology comes forward during this time and says this happened. And I, I you know, I lied about it.

[00:50:21]

I did know this was just one person. Mike, I think we've done our job. Absolutely, Leah. And and I also beseeched these people that they are not just coming forward or talking for the sake of helping to prosecute someone, but to protect people in the future.

[00:50:43]

One of the things that strikes me always like I watched Athlete A the other night on Netflix about the the women's gymnastics and, you know, the the the Eppstein thing and R. Kelly and all of these expos, these that have happened and the people who have had the courage to step forward almost uniformly have said that the reason that they're doing so is because they don't want anybody else to suffer like they had to suffer.

[00:51:12]

Right. And I think that that is truly a motivation that that even a Scientologist can get behind. Right.

[00:51:22]

Yeah. And the other thing to make is an important note about the Danny Masterson story is that Victim A and B did not know about each other. And and the reason why they decided to come forward after so many years when they had already when it happened is because of that reason why they had no idea.

[00:51:45]

I thought I was the only one right then to find out that there were victims after them. They felt they had a responsibility to do something about it. So really, that is why this went forward. That's why we decided to tell their story, because we felt that something needs to be done about it to avoid more victims. This happening to other people.

[00:52:20]

So, Mike, Scientology, I mean, you know, we always say, like, well, we would just love to stop being shocked, you know? Like, I don't really even know what to tweet anymore. Like, I like I literally have taken to, like, going don't have the words. Wow. Well, when you think Scientology can't sink to a new low. Wow. I don't even know what to say anymore, but I know Scientology.

[00:52:47]

They had the fucking balls, Mike, to take out three fucking pee pee pee laws.

[00:52:55]

I, I know. I mean, that the the outrage is on levels of insanity. Leah, you realize that Scientology claims whenever anybody seeks to force them to take responsibility for their employees, that they're not employees, that they are volunteers, so they can't have it both ways.

[00:53:20]

Is anybody watching? Anybody listening? Partha. Right. Can you hear me? I am me, buddy. So I don't need to make a fucking joke. But you know what? When people ask me why are you so emotional? Like when I go to work frickin grocery store. This is what? This is why.

[00:53:44]

Yeah, this is why when Angelo asked me where the freaking forks are in my house, I want to cut smothering and with a pillow because I deal with this shit every day and I'm like, is there us hidden camera somewhere?

[00:54:00]

Does no body watch what's going on, you're absolutely right, Mike. They say, well, they're not our employees when it works for them. Well, they had the audacity while small businesses are going out of business, while people can't eat this three billion dollar for profit cult. Ted, the balls to take out three peat BP loans during a pandemic.

[00:54:26]

Yes. And let's let's add to that, Leah. Yeah. They told the IRS they are absolutely not a business, you know, where these loans come from, these Small Business Administration. This is a loan from the Small Business Administration to assist businesses. Who can we call Mike?

[00:54:49]

Who can we call outs? I don't know. Like when when people are getting slapped in the face by this stuff, like where do you go that the point hasn't already been made? I don't get it. I don't get why.

[00:55:05]

Like, nobody seems to notice or like it's not not like a big deal. It's just, oh, Scientology. Up to their usual tricks here.

[00:55:15]

And you're talking you're not a church. You don't do anything charitable. You don't give millions of dollars away. You don't feed the homeless. You don't feed the needy. You don't do shit for anybody except yourselves. And that's just not my opinion. I wish it were. I wish I wish I could skulk.

[00:55:37]

Go to sleep at night going. You might have just exaggerated. You were a little a.

[00:55:42]

I wish that I was exaggerating. These people do nothing that a church with tax exemption does. They don't pay taxes, but they don't do anything but amass three billion dollars and they use their money to stalk her rice Sue. This is where they're spending millions of dollars and abusing people.

[00:56:12]

And not only that, Scientologists are told that they need to give more money to Scientology so that Scientology can survive through catastrophes and cataclysmic events and the downturn of the economy, et cetera, et cetera. And when it happens, they don't spend their own money. They go suck it out of the government, the same government that gave them tax exemption because they represented that they weren't a business, the same government that allows them not to pay minimum wage or Social Security taxes or whatever, because they don't have anything, any employees.

[00:56:49]

They just have volunteers. This is complete bullshit. Mike, what can people do? Can they call the IRS? Can they write the IRS? Can. I mean, what can pick up what?

[00:57:03]

Well, I mean, they can write to their congressmen and senators, and that may may seem futile. But the truth of the matter is, ultimately, when enough pressure is brought to bear on elected officials about issues, they will ultimately act.

[00:57:23]

It takes a lot of momentum to get them going. But eventually they will act. And that's all I can think, because you can write to the IRS. Sure. But the IRS usually only responds to pressure from Congress or pressure in the media. So, yes.

[00:57:43]

So that's what you could look forward to. Is there going to be following this story very closely and as well? Scientology fair game tactics. We will be exposing all of it as we move on and being able to talk in depth about that. A lot of the things that we didn't get to talk about on the aftermath.

[00:58:03]

Right.

[00:58:03]

And we've created a Web site called Fair Game Podcast, dot com, where we will be loading documents and things that we talk about, videos, whatever may be relevant so that people can see the actual evidence if they don't believe it. OK. And there is also my blog, which is Mike Rynders blog dot org, where there is an enormous amount of material that has been put together over many years now about Scientology abuses, about the subject of fair game, the policies, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:58:43]

Yeah. And there's also a few like we should also mention, Mike, you have Tony Ortega, who does a great job, has a great Web site. You have the Scientology money project done by Jeffrey Augustine, many, many others that are missing.

[00:58:57]

Critical thinking by Chris Shelton.

[00:59:00]

Exactly. And there's just a group of of these like powerhouses set out to continue to expose Scientology correctly and admirably. Yeah. OK, guys, thank you. We're a mess. We've got to get to work there, Mike. We plan on doing this. Seriously, Mike, we got to get better at this. I'm back. Yes, ma'am.

[00:59:18]

OK, good. Anyway, the first episode live, right? You're right. Please hang in there with those guys. And I don't even know if I have a more dynamic voice to be doing a podcast. Right. Yeah. Quite honestly. Do you know what people call the house Mike? They go, Hello, sir. What is it? I just go with it or people call me on my cell. They go, Angello. I don't know.

[00:59:38]

Leah. So phone sex was definitely out, but I don't know how I sound on this podcast.

[00:59:45]

And I apologize because, I mean, I think, you know, people need to see my face with this terrific voice of mine.

[00:59:51]

But I'll settle for the voice. I also don't think your voices horrific. You're just used to at least you talk quickly. Not like me. Yeah. You do have, like, these pregnant pauses. Like, it's like really.

[01:00:02]

I get past the was Paz's. I don't know. Anyway, you guys listen. We want to hear from you. Like you let us know what you wanted to talk about. I mean, we always have a lot to talk about with Scientology. There's just no shortage of things to talk about and listen. Going forward, we're gonna be talking to people that you have seen on the aftermath.

[01:00:20]

But we also have to we're we're revisiting people, too, that we've talked to in the past, only because they didn't get to tell a certain part of their story on the aftermath.

[01:00:33]

So don't think we're repeating episodes on a whole new stuff like even. Yes. Old people. You're going to add new stuff.

[01:00:40]

Exactly. People, that's what would you call it. Old people.

[01:00:43]

New stuff they get. I'm the old people. You can be the new stuff. Well, I don't know.

[01:00:50]

I like I might get a boob job just that I could say on the new stuff. But but I'm having a podcast. I don't need to I don't even need to get dressed. I don't even know why I'm sitting here and makeup and hair and a cute outfit.

[01:01:01]

Well, because we get to see through. Maybe we'll show these not good enough. Maybe we'll show these one day, maybe. Yeah. Maybe it will. All right. Anyway, you guys, thank you for tuning in and thank you for your support. We are so happy to be back. And we'll be back next week.

[01:01:18]

We love you. Bye, everyone.

[01:01:20]

OK, we got to get better at this, Mike. We suck at the beginnings and the ends anyway till next week, people. Hi, I'm Heidi Murkoff, author of What to Expect When You're Expecting and host of the upcoming What to Expect podcast. An I heart radio, I always say motherhood is the ultimate sisterhood. But did you know that black moms in the United States are three to four times more likely to die from pregnancy related complications because of disparities in care, and more than two thirds of those deaths are preventable?

[01:02:06]

That's unacceptable. And that's why I'm asking you to join us on July 22nd for our sixth annual Bump Day to celebrate beautiful bumps and healthy pregnancies, raise awareness and show your solidarity and support for every mom everywhere. Just share a bump. Past or present, yours are a bump you love with the hashtag bump day. So every mom can expect a healthy beginning and a healthy future for herself and the baby she loves. On July 22nd, please spread the word.

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Share the love. Help save lives. See you on Bump Day. For more information, go to what to expect. Project dot org.

[01:02:51]

I'm John Horn, host of the podcast Hollywood, the sequel on every episode. We're challenging producers, actors and directors to tell us what's broken in Hollywood and how they'd fix it. Here's producer Ava DuVernay on ending systemic racism.

[01:03:06]

A shock is not enough. A statement is not enough. One black executive is not enough. Two is not enough. Your company must look like the real world.

[01:03:16]

And we're tackling other problems, like keeping everybody safe on set and fixing Hollywood's broken gig economy. Here's Movieline producer, Jason Reid. The financial pressure to do less with more interns. Day is running a crew 12 to 14 hours, six days a week wasn't a sustainable model before, and it's definitely not a sustainable model now.

[01:03:40]

Listen to Hollywood, the sequel on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.