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Hello, this is Leah Remini with Mike Rinder. Welcome to another episode of Scientology. Fair Game, everybody. You may have noticed that we have some new music, pretty damning of Elton Wanky. Like it is pretty swanky. And I just want to give a shout out. And thanks to our friend Jeff Leverne and his composing partner, Bruce Chianese, who put together that music for us for free. Thank you.


Yes. And as you guys know, I wanted to start this podcast with a choice of music and a particular lyric from one of my favorite rap songs. And it would have started Only Bitches Talk Shit, but that wasn't approved.


So this is the next best thing.


We are continuing discussion of a fair game and today we have a guest with us, right, Mike?


Yes, we do. We are welcoming with us today Tammy Clark, who is a niece of Heba Jentsch, who was formerly the president of the Church of Scientology International.


Well, hello, Tammy.


It's so good to be here, if I can see Tammy. So so can you, Mike, your beautiful face. Thank you for joining us.


Now, just a little bit of back story about who he is. He was the president of the Church of Scientology.


And and for those who didn't watch the aftermath as a Scientologist growing up in Scientology are senior executives like Heber were very front and center at every event at a Scientology events, but also very public with promoting Scientology and and trying to infiltrate community government. So Heber was on the front lines of trying to get people in line with Scientology as his job as as the president of Scientology.


And like, what would you say, Mike, 10 or 15 executives has just been kind of. Removed from the public eye, not only to the public, but to also Scientologist, what would you say, like 10 or 15 senior executives of Scientology, including David Miscavige, his wife, Shelly Miscavige? Right.


Well, in fact, it was the entire senior hierarchy of Scientology internationally. And while they were 10 or 15, very prominent people who the public knew because they would speak at events and be seen on TV and that sort of stuff, including here. But there was a lot of others who were not so well known that will also disappeared in the purges that David Miscavige did in order to consolidate his position as the unchallenged leader of Scientology.


Right. And Tammy Clark is the niece of Heber, reached out to you after watching going clear and seeing the headlines.


Now. Now.


Tammy, I don't I certainly don't want to paint the picture that you had a relationship as as a niece would have with her uncle where you could pick up the phone and call Hebler at any time, go visit Hebra at any time.


So to say it best.


And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but most people in Hebrews family who were not Scientologists were estranged from people. Right.


Right. Yes, they were. And everybody has always been concerned about him. He has many family members who love and care and care about him. And I heard a lot for the family about his life. And about his being in Scientology, but there were a lot of people who were estranged, they could not speak to him regularly and sometimes when they were try to contact them, they had difficulty getting through to him because how he was doing right.


Because he is at a place where you were, Mike. It's called the Gold Base, or Golden Era Productions, which is located in Riverside County, California.


And it is a guard gated compound compound.


This is where the beatings were taking place. And this is where Heber is now. Tammy just set up for us when so if you for people because they just go to say to us or say, why don't you just pick up the phone and try to call him.


So if you know where he is, as we do, he's a gold, what would happen when you guys would try to contact him?


From talking with other relatives when they had called, sometimes he would never return calls. Other times they felt as though he was having his calls monitored when he did return them and he wouldn't immediately pick up ever.


And and, Mike, is that true or are the calls monitored there at the gold base? Oh, absolutely.


They are they are monitored. Every willia, your family members of Sea Org people do not just call in and get them right on the phone.


All the all the calls are screened, and particularly for someone like Kiba, and especially so once he left Los Angeles and was taken to the Golden Era Productions facility and put in the hole, he was now no longer able to speak to anybody outside and any incoming calls or inquiries one would never received by him.


Right. And there have been news reports from Tony Ortega from the underground bunker and your blog, Mike and other people have posted that Heber was not doing well and was being put, like you said, in this whole which you guys can Google what the hole is, but this is where people are being punished and abused. And so talking about the calls being monitored. So Mike is saying, yes, they are they are monitored. And there's also No.


Nine one one access outside at the gold base. So if Mike or he or anybody wanted to call nine one one to get assistance, they cannot do so. The phones are set up on a switchboard. So when you pick it up, you have to go through a switchboard to get an outside line first.


So you can't you don't have access to that also at the gold base because the Sea Org members there and or remember is an employee of Scientology who live there and live communally there. They don't know what's going on in the outside world. Even Scientologists like me didn't really know what was going on in Scientology, really. And so there's a many, many years of brainwashing that's going on. So we weren't we didn't know the condition of Heber. But a report came out, too, from Valerie Haney, who was the latest person to leave the gold base, that she had witnessed something that was abuse, that she had witnessed abuse in regards to Heber.


And she had gone to the sheriff's department there in Riverside. She had let people know the authorities know what she witnessed. So to get us back on track, Tammy, you rightfully so contact Mike and and and ask Mike and ask us to accompany you to do a welfare check on heaver.


Yes, I did.


So you call us, we say, yes, we would. I mean, we Mike and I, on the way up to to meet you in Riverside, we were talking about what we would actually say to Heber. Mike was talking about how wonderful it would be to reunite with somebody he considered a friend.


I mean, Mike and Heber knew each other for how many years, decades, decades worked side by side.


They were in the same hole. They experienced the same abuse.


And so we really which which also looking back, Mike made me think. And yet here we are a bit naive about an organization that we know. But we really did believe in the system. We believe that with Tammy, she would be able to walk onto the base and see her uncle. We thought that she would be able to convince him to leave with her. We thought we were going to we were talking about where were we going to bring him to eat after or should it be in a hotel room so that he can cry and tell us everything that's happened to him?


I mean, like we really thought this was going to happen.


Well, it didn't happen. And I don't know how much you guys want to talk about this part, because I don't want to be the one telling this story.


But I was I was surprised and heartbroken for you, Mike, for me, because I really thought we were going to save one. But really for Tammy and her family and for Huibers family who thought this is the right thing to do, not many people are doing it. Not many non Scientology family members are going to fight to see and rescue their Scientology children.


There are see org children there, uncles, aunts, whatever. You mean, like not many people are doing this. So why don't you tell us in your from what you from what you experience what.


Well, as you said, I thought with yours and Mike's help and your knowledge of Scientology and everything that I could come out, I could do have a welfare check them on Habour out of concern for him. And because many members wanted to know if he was OK after hearing that his helpless feeling for a short time, we even wondered if he was still alive because some members didn't. I mean, not very many people had heard from him for a long time.


And we didn't know if he was getting the proper care he needed, what condition he was in, and I thought, well, maybe with the welfare check and going out there that we could at least see him and that maybe I could have a conversation with him. And, you know, when we went out there, I was not permitted in. They said I was not allowed to go in. That was private property. And when the deputy had gone in to do the welfare check, he did say that he declined to see me.


That he didn't know me, which. Was not true, so then that made me question his state of mind.


And his well-being for that reason, because he had known me since a child and now he hadn't known me in my adult years, I admit that he has been involved in Scientology because once he and many people, of course, and that and that's true for all Sea Org members in Scientology and even parishioners that once they joined the Sea Org, they are encouraged to cut ties with family that are not Sea Org members that are not Scientologists because you are considered a distraction.


So that was through no fault of your own, Tammy. But go ahead.


So, yeah, I was very disappointed. I mean, to be that close to be at his home where he actually lives and to not be allowed to be and to see him, to talk to him, not even her little, you know, a letter delivered to him or anything, although I had written to him the year prior in November, around his birthday in twenty seventeen, when he was around eighty two years old. And six months later I did receive a letter back.


But he did not acknowledge a lot of what I had mentioned in the letter that you're that you were concerned.


Yes. And he did talk about his Scientology and his work and his life and how important that is to him. Right.


And those letters are written basically for them. Correct. Mike, when you take us through when you get these kinds of letters from family members, are concerned friends?


Yeah, well, particularly when you have someone that is in the position that Heber is in, there are people who are handlers for him, full time handlers.


And we're going to get to this in a little bit about what the the outcome of Tammy's visit or the sheriff's visit was, because it disclosed some fascinating information that hasn't been known before.


But these people who are the handlers of prominent people like Kiba or people who are being held in the hall, are there to make sure that the outside world is buffered from that person, that there is no intrusion from the outside world into their life for two reasons. One, in case they hear or see something that they're not supposed to hear or see and to so that the outside world doesn't get a real glimpse of what's going on with that person. So the letter that he sent in May back to Tammi, which was one month before Tammi went to try and do this welfare check.


When they start saying or lawyers for Scientology start saying, oh, he doesn't even know who she is. But quote, Heba had written a letter to her one month previously, a full page letter that was actually a typical Scientology propaganda piece. Oh, you should watch the Scientology TV show.


And we're opening new ideal organizations. It's the same crap that you see all over the Scientology propaganda stuff that they send out. And this letter was very much in that vein.




And and also, Tammy, the you're not from California, so you had to come here to do the welfare check the night before, and you had let the sheriff's department know that you were coming and they were like, OK, and meet us here and we're going to do so. Gave you all kinds of ideas that there was no problem, that this was going to proceed as as as as it should.


And you would be able to see Heber with your own eyes. But that didn't happened.


They had gone and done a welfare check before you had even gotten there, correct?


Correct. They went and they said that he was gone to a doctor's appointment and that he was not there.


I can't explain why they acted the way that they did.


But I do know that there was a great effort on behalf of Scientology to create that sort of a relationship with the sheriff's office there in Clearwater, in Los Angeles, wherever the major outposts are.


Right. Well well, it was shocking to us because we had no idea that Tammy had had that conversation the night before. So we show up thinking we're going to be met with the Riverside County Sheriff's Office. Tammy is going to go by herself without us, without cameras. We're going to wait for her and heaver at a nearby motel. We were like like I said, talking about what we're going to eat.


Where's he going to. Is he going to want to live with Tammy? Does he want to live with me? Does he want to live with you, Mike?


Like we're literally making plans, believing in some fairy tale, only come to find out that Tammy is sitting waiting where she thinks she's meeting somebody. Then she's letting us know no one's here, no one's meeting me. She calls the sheriff's department. They tell her you have no right to go on the property and neither do we.


Tammy correct? That's correct. Yes. I wanted to go with them. I said, well, can you escort me in? All right. I said, no, it's private property. We don't go in there. When they were going back again, they said, no, you're not allowed to go in. And then if he wants to see you, we can ask if he wants to see you. But of course, he declined. Right?


According to what they told me. And you wanted to go there.


And I believe this is the only way to do it was to to say to Heber, face to face, Heber, where your family we love you.


You don't need to put up with this abuse any longer. You need to know what's going on in the real world.


Come with me.


Now, you were hoping to get to say that to your uncle. They did not allow you to do that. You went to the gold base by yourself anyway because you were charging forward.


You were standing there, the guard gate. He would not answer. Right? He will not answer you.


I agree that anybody out there anywhere I saw one person in black run from one building to the next building. Other than that, the place seemed deserted. Oh, yeah. So, Mike, how many employees or at the gold base? Well, between five and eight hundred.


OK, and so when something like this is happening, what is being said on the other side of the gates?


It's a it's a lockdown, Leah. Everybody has to stay indoors and close the blinds. Nobody is allowed outside the security guards. The big, tough dudes sitting at the guard booth at the gate duck underneath the counter.


So even if you put your face up to the mirrored glass, you can't see anybody inside. Now, I know that all the listeners of this podcast can't see Tammy, but this is not Hulk Hogan.


This is a grandma from Utah, and she was standing at the gate pressing the button, saying someone please talk to me and they were all hiding.


Now, why would they hiding?


Yeah, why were they hiding? That's the real issue. It's the same reason that when the sheriffs went in to see Heber, he had handlers with him sitting in the room.


And they documented that in the sheriff's report afterwards, saying he was accompanied by his, quote, full time nurse. Yeah, who is that?


Who's the full time? Because I've never seen a nurse in my history of being a parishioner in Scientology. I have never seen a nurse, have never seen a medical doctor. So this was I mean, Mike, do you have nurses at the gold base?


Know the person who was there, Netty Elcock is not a nurse, a 100 percent guarantee you she is not a nurse. She has been in the Seahawk since she was 16. I know her from the Apollo. So ship the ship Apollo back in the days of L. Ron Hubbard sailing around in the Caribbean. So this was someone who was sitting next to Heber, accompanying him with a Scientology shore story, meaning a story made to tell the people in the outside world an acceptable truth about what you're doing.


And she was there to be sure that he didn't say anything untoward. He didn't say, oh, I'm not really doing very well. I'm not feeling well. I'm not being looked after. I'm being abused, I'm being abused, whatever. And that is the real crux of the problem here. While this is one part of the problem, the second part of the problem is what happened afterwards after this whole thing was sure.


So but we before we get to that, Mike, the fact that Tammy, the niece of Heber, a Scientology employee, calls the Riverside County sheriff's office, says she's coming in from Utah to do a welfare check on her uncle that she believes is in danger and needs real medical attention. And they do a welfare check, they don't tell her that she does welfare until she comes into town and says, I'm going to I need to see my uncle, I need to see him with my own two eyes.


So they go to the gold base. That one car left. They left from a different entrance where no one can see them.


They go to back to gold. Now, Tami's they're ringing the bell. She doesn't know that anybody's there.


Well, out comes the Riverside County sheriff.


When he came out, I stopped him and I wanted to ask how things were, how things out and said, let's not talk here. Let's go back to the sheriff's office to meet and we'll discuss things further. They're right.


And I see you're nice. You know, you grew up nice.


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I'm Katie Lowes, actress, mom and host of the parenting podcast Katie's Kremp, a show that helps women navigate the big shifts which motherhood can bring. This season. You'll hear from resilient moms like actress Gabrielle Union, thought leaders like author of the New York Times best seller Untamed Glen and Doyle, and experts like prenatal and postpartum clinical psychologist Dr. Alison Berlin. We get candid about our experiences and share resources for everything parenting, endometriosis and surrogacy, divorce and blended families emotionally preparing for postpartum.


Katie's crib is covering it all for a dose of comfort and community with those who understand the struggles and the joys of raising tiny humans. Subscribe now for brand new episodes. Every other Thursday, listen to Katie's Crib on My Heart radio app or an Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. So I was brought in alone. With the sheriff and a deputy and they proceeded to tell me about the welfare check and they were telling me that Habour is just fine and that he had a full time nurse standing next to him during the whole interview with him.


And I did ask, well, did he stand up? They didn't. They said no. He was just sitting there enjoying his retirement, which is the short story that I heard in the letter that I've heard from many relatives. The same exact thing, the same thing was told to the sheriff and deputy and that he's just enjoying retirement and works a couple hours a day to stay busy. And he was looking at a man just sitting there relaxed in his home, looking at a magazine.


And I thought, whatever. I mean, this is B.S. I don't believe that whatever you even said, you even said to them, how did you know she was a nurse?


Why didn't you ask any other questions?


And they were like, we can't do that. I said, Did you see any marks on his body or anything that looked not like he was not being taken care of? And they said he had a long sleeve shirt on. They didn't do that. They don't do that, which I know from another experience that they do check them over. And I didn't feel that I was getting the truth about how he truly was doing in there. And that upset me.


And then they proceeded to say, well, did you even know this about him, that he was the president of the Scientology? How long's it been since you've seen him and just started interrogating me as if I didn't know my uncle? Yeah, I haven't known him for a lot of years. But it is we have a very large family and everybody talks about heaver and wonders about heaver because. Of Scientology and things like here and there, concerns for him, because they do love him and people do want to know how he's doing and they do care and.


But they can't ever. Find out the facts, they cannot get the truth right, and so everybody just feels like he's fine.


Well, he's not, but but yeah, but Mike, is there any such thing in Scientology, in the sea organisation that allows Sea Org members to work a couple of hours a day, sit in a chair, read a book with a blanket over their knees? Is there such a thing as retirement in the sea organization?


No. End of answer, period, no, this is absurd, and it's interesting that the Scientology world has never been told that he has retired. There is not a new president, Church of Scientology International, who has been appointed. They haven't been told that the executive director international has retired or any of the other senior executives who are held at the gold base or former senior executives. Nobody has been informed anything about them and nobody is allowed to ask.


Right. And so Tammi's welfare check is a new thing because like you said, Mike, even as if I was in Scientology when I asked about Shelley, we all know how that went.


I was considered it's considered an act of an enemy. It's considered from your church, meaning Scientology, that you are now a problem for them.


And then you are sent into interrogations and you're asked questions on a lie detector, you know, their form of a lie detector meter and you are interrogated severely and punished severely if you are asked about a senior executive of Scientology. And so to have it be done by somebody who is a non-believer, a non Scientologist, Anon's, you are a member.


They consider Tammy now an enemy to Scientology for simply inquiring about her blood, uncle of her uncle, like literally a family member, just checking on him.


If there's nothing to see here, there's nothing to see here. We apologize. We're friends.


Sorry for any inconvenience, but family members and people who care have a right to inquire because honestly, everyone, this is what we truly want.


If you can save one, we are not down for people screaming and ridiculing Sea Org members and Scientologists.


If you have access to a cyborg member in the street, give them a card and say, if you need help, contact the Aftermath Foundation or would you like to come with me? I can help you. We don't want people ridiculing and carrying on because that really is not our intention.


So to get back to it, Tammy comes out, we we cry in the car together and Tammy goes home.


Now, remember, by simply, oh, I should also add that in the parking lot waiting.


Were Scientology staff waiting to go in to file a complaint against the Riverside County Sheriff's Office and us for do, they were just ready and prepared to now attack the Riverside County sheriff's office if we had convinced them to do their job?


They were just ready to go, right, Mike?


Yeah, they went in right around the block waiting for us to drive away before they drove in.


And that's exactly what happened. As we drove away, they drove in. Now, here's where Fair Game comes into play. Tammy, now a concerned family member and niece of Heber Gent's, former president of the Church of Scientology, now is fair game to Scientology. She is now considered an enemy to Scientology for simply trying to see her uncle. And why don't you tell us what happens next to me? So I arrived home and everything was OK for a couple of days and then on Sunday, I believe it was June 20 second.


There was the doorbell rings at my home and I was not presentable, so my husband answered the door and here were two female private detectives standing in private investigators excuse me, private investigator standing at my door on the porch there, and they ask, is Tammy Clark available? And he says, well, she's here, but she's not available right now because it was not presentable. And I didn't want to go to the door. And he says, May I help you?


And they proceeded to say that they were there. Due to the fact that I have gone down to California and I had tried to contact Habour and that I had disrupted his retirement and I. They needed to talk to me about my visit down there and what took place and what had happened and things like that, and then my husband says, well, she's not going to. Well, they said, will you give her the card? Will you give her this card and have her call us and speak with us about what happened down there?


And my husband says, no, I will. Well, he said I will give her the card, but she will not speak with you without a lawyer present. Mm hmm. And then come to find out, they had proceeded to go to my mom's house, a seventy nine year old woman who lives alone since my dad passed away and. She answered the door and they represented the one represented herself as being a Mormon LDS person, knowing that my mom.


Is of that faith and in my speculation, gained her trust and was asking her all kinds of questions about her family and how many children do you have and things of this nature. And then they said, we know Tammy Clark is your daughter. And she was down in California to visit her. And we want you to know that he is just fine and I. Did not even tell my mom that I was going down there. So she was very fearful because she didn't know what they were up to, what they were doing there.


And people in the family are fearful of Scientology for fear that they don't know what they'll do to them. And she was taken aback because I had not told her anything about going or having them there. Right. And so she was afraid. And then she called me to ask me why I had done that and why they came to her. OK, which there is no reason for them to go to her. There's no reason to come to you or her.


No. They said that they were going to accuse you of that because of what you did, that Heber was taken into a sheriff's yes vehicle.


Yeah. Yeah. So they told me that he was very afraid now, because when the sheriffs when when the sheriff went in to see him to do the welfare check, they stuffed them in the back of the car. And we're interrogating him. I had never even heard that before the sheriff's department, when I visited with them, mentioned nothing of that incident. Right.


And they were but they were threatening to sue you. And they were threatening to sue me. Yes. For violating his rights. Right, or to that name any. Know you called Mike when that happened and you were rightfully so beyond shaken up, you were in tears. You had your grandchildren there when this happened.


I was very shocked. I've never heard of anything like this happening before. And now I have these kids coming after me. And I wasn't asking you. Your asked me and I was not sure what's going to happen next now and whether that was related or not. For a few days we did see some cars in our neighborhood that didn't look right. Whether that was them or not, I be sure of that. But it was enough for us to install a security system in our home, which we never had to do before.


We never felt unsafe here where we live. And so then shortly after that, we noticed two of our other neighbors had put cameras on their homes. We never did ask them about it. One neighbor did volunteer, that just seems like there's some suspicious activity in the neighborhood, so I feel like I should get a camera on my home. So, you know, maybe they noticed something to. But this is what and then after that, I didn't know what would happen from there on out or who else they might harass in my family.


And none of them knew what I did. I even got out there. My husband was a lawyer and my grandchildren that live with me. Yeah. And so I was fearful for their lives because they live here in my home at that time.


Scientology policy by L. Ron Hubbard says if you want to go after someone who is an enemy, hire private investigators and send them out to harass them. And that's exactly what they did. I mean, they flew these two women from Los Angeles to Utah to find out exactly what that Tammi had gone.


They knew that she was there. There wasn't anything they were going to find out.


Right. And and part of the directives of we were talking about that fair game is a banner of which many directives, hundreds, if not thousands of directives fall under for instructions to employees of Scientology, but also parishioners, celebrities or anybody who has a voice.


Right. A dismissed attacker. Is the attempt here, right.


Like to harass, stalk in an attempt to silence to accomplish a dismissed attacker. So they were once an attacker and an attacker to Scientology is somebody like Tammy, who's just a family member? Yes.


They see this as a full on attack to the work that they're doing because she's calling them out.


They consider that an attack on them.


So now that Tammy has been silenced and is no longer asking to see her uncle or make sure that he's OK, they have accomplished this directive of fair game called the dismissed attacker, which is what Tammy is now.


She they have successfully silenced her to not continue to ask about Hebra. Right.


And also, they have delivered a message to other people. Don't you try it either. There are other there are a lot of other people there whose family members are very concerned about their well-being.


They reach out to me constantly. I get emails from people all the time, Leah. I know my brother, my son, my daughter, my cousin there at Golden Era Productions. I don't know. I don't hear anything from them. What should I do? Those are the people that Scientology is also worried about now, stepping forward and doing exactly what Tammy did.


Here's the thing, though, Mike. Tammy, we we documented this incident two years ago, right? Right. OK, well, here we are today.


So Scientology, you do not have a dishonest attacker. You have Tammy Clark, who is still continuing to speak out for her uncle Heber Jones, who is still being held captive at the gold base, even if it is because he's brainwashed to believe that the abuse that he's receiving is justified through the teachings of Scientology. But you did not dismiss her.


She's still here. She's still talking.


And she's going to continue to speak, as we hope other people who have reached out to Mike, who have relatives up there. Shelly Miscavige does have a sister.


Shelly Miscavige does have a father in law who's out. So people need to start speaking. People need to start putting pressure on Scientology. You do not get to hold our family members hostage and think we're going to go away silently.


And, you know, Scientology was was emboldened enough by their relationship with the Riverside County Sheriff's Office that they sent a legal letter to us and said that the quote I'm reading from it, the sheriff's office told counsel for the church they believe the request was a publicity stunt.


Uh huh. OK, so we called their bluff. So we called.


So we yeah, we sent something to the Riverside County Sheriff's Office because we're tired of this kind of bullshit being put out by Scientology, nobody responding.


So we demanded an answer from the Riverside County Sheriff's Office. We wanted to we literally said, did you say that shit?


Did you say that shit? And what they say.


Yeah. The the captain, Leonard Purvis of the Riverside County Sheriff's Department responded saying this is not the position of the department and we did not make the assertions to Scientology.


Thank you. I mean. It's just insane, so they'll just say, like they did with me, with my missing persons report on Shelly Miscavige, they said that the LAPD Hollywood division put out a statement saying that my report was unfounded, my inquiry into the whereabouts of Shelly Miscavige were unfounded.


Well, there's only two things that the police department. There's only a two categories founded. Unfounded. Unfounded just means they.


They looked and they saw the person or, yeah, exactly, in this case, they did fail, right. But but they only have two categories, right, that the person they were not able to locate, which means founded and found unfounded, would mean that they were able to locate that person or a representative of that person when it comes to Scientology. But Scientology is running around saying even the LAPD said it was unfounded. Well, this is the only time in in their defense, Mike, is the only thing that I could commend them for is that they had the balls to say, we never said that.


That's the only thing I can say.


Right. Which which is in some respects is the power that the media has when it comes to these sort of things, that there is value in this in the show, in the podcasts, in the aggregate, in any way, shape or form of what is really going on, because it does cause these people to think twice about doing this again.


And I guess what it didn't it didn't, because look at Tami's here. Tami's here talking to us, Mike, so it doesn't work. So if I could only press upon people about Fair Game and their tactics, yes. Somebody will show up to your house, some P.I., you know, like who's getting paid an enormous amount of money from Scientology. They will try to get you fired from your job. Yes.


But ultimately, Tommy is still standing and nothing happened.


And, you know, I'm not happy about the. She didn't get an answer.


I got I was talking about the police departments or government officials. They will change. They will respond if they think they're going to be exposed, if they believe that they are going to be seen as the bad people and can't just hide this. What their relationships, they change. They don't they don't carry on.


So what would be your advice, Mike, to anybody who you said like you said, there's like 10 or 15 executives up there who haven't been seen, including Shelly Miscavige, who has yet to be seen? What would you what advice would you give these people?


They should contact the Riverside County Sheriff's Office. And if they contact the sheriff's office and the sheriff's office does nothing, they should send us an email or call me and say, here's what my experience was.


I just believe that you've got to keep exposing and exposing and exposing and making known to the world what is really going on.


And eventually it's going to change. Right. Me, yes. Obviously, you're not giving up on Habour because you're here talking to us, but has anybody else written heaver or tried to contact Hebra after this?


Not that I'm aware of. And that's another thing that has happened since I made that attempt, is that there are a lot of relatives now that want to stay away from me and don't want to speak with me anymore or have any contact with me because. Of my position, as I'm seen by the psychologist now, I'm seen as a suppressive person, as an enemy, as this bad person, and they're afraid to be associated with me now for fear that they, too, will start getting harassed fair game and fair game and that they make come in danger and so on.


And if anybody does have any contact with him, I'm not aware of that right now. But if they do, they want to make sure that there is no contact with me, because if they have contact with me, that will prevent them from ever having any contact with Heber, because then that will make them an enemy.


They will be able to get in, even getting the they will not get the even the form letter from Hooper from that point on if they are connected with you. And I'm very sorry, but it's it's not what family does.


Tell me what you did and what you are doing now is what family is and what family does. And I thank you for not giving up. And I thank you for having integrity. I think because as you can see, it's it's far and few between in this world, and I thank you for being the one who's doing the right thing.


Well, I hope that will happen. We hope and we can only hope that someday we can before it's too late, get right to see him or talk to him something or other people in there and the other people will step up and do more to stop the news that's going on. And I just so appreciate what you and Mike and all that you're doing all the time to help others. Thank you to.


And we try you do you do try and succeed always as it is. You're not giving up or you're just. Yes. And neither are you. Neither are you. So thank you. Don't want to. But you know. I know. I know you want me think. Thank you so much. Really. One thing I would say to you is I wish you were the grandmother of my boys.


Oh, I couldn't be one. I have grandchildren. OK, good. Mike, there you go. You just got yourself a great grandma. You can never have too many. There you go.


That person that that this world needs more of. Tammy.


Yeah. Thank you, Tammy. I admire you and Leah for your strength and for all of that you do to help others. And it is more I can do to help you. You're doing what I can do to help you, to help anyone you know.


But you're what you are, and that's why you're here today, that's why you were there two years ago, what you do every day, you know, being there for your grandchildren and being the person that you are, a person, I'm sure, who if we started going up and down your street or started talking to people who know you, Tammy, in a real way, they would say she's the most loving and caring human being on the planet.


And so I'm sure you help people in ways that you have no idea you're helping. So so I know that what you're doing to me, I mean, the fact is that you're the only one who has done this. I think there were others in the play that game or play well, or there's maybe I can maybe say there's been three people.


There's been three people. You know, there's been three people, maybe. But but but know that what you're doing is no small thing.


And we thank you for always for willing to speak to us once again and for putting yourself and your family through through that. We really, really thank you from the bottom of our hearts.


And I thank you. I'm John Horn, host of the podcast Hollywood, the sequel. On every episode, we're challenging producers, actors and directors to tell us what's broken in Hollywood and how they'd fix it. Here's producer Ava DuVernay on ending systemic racism.


It's just not enough. A statement. It's not enough. One black executive is not enough to is not enough. Your company must look like the real world.


And we're tackling other problems, like keeping everybody safe on set and fixing Hollywood's broken gig economy. Here's Moolarben producer Jason Reid. The financial pressure to do less with more in terms of days running a crew 12 to 14 hours, six days a week wasn't a sustainable model before. And it's definitely not a sustainable model. Now, listen to Hollywood, the sequel on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Steve Greenberg, the host of Eyharts new podcast, Speed of Sound.


Speed of Sound is a music history podcast that gives you an all access pass into the songs and sounds that have become the soundtrack to our lives. You'll hear how the hits really hit the top of the charts straight from the artists and innovators who created them from groundbreaking cultural shifts like the teen pop explosion of the mid 90s to dance crazes like the Twist and disco.


I wouldn't do that song. And she fired me, which was totally fine. I didn't want to go down. The guy with great Aretha Franklin disco record will delve into left field pop music phenomena like the monster mash and even who let the dogs out, a guy barking and singing about dogs. I thought, this has got to be a joke. We'll take you back in time and straight through today's charts to tackle Pop's top songs and most sensational scandal filled stories.


Every right that he said our Rapper's Delight was mine, never met him. Suspiria irony on irony. Listen and follow the speed of sound on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. So, Mike, let's talk about the gold for one minute, OK? The gold base is a base Scientology compound in Riverside County. This is where you were, correct? Yeah, but what is it?


It's a property that used to be a spa and a golf course, but it went bankrupt and it was taken over by Scientology, put barbed wire fences, lights, motion sensor cameras, guard booths all around the property. And it is basically an impenetrable fortress.


But it's more importantly, a very difficult place to get out of unless you go through the guarded gates.


And this is where the international headquarters of Scientology is and where David Miscavige has operated or used to operate to run Scientology around the world.




And also, they've set it up quite nicely where you can't even pull off and park anywhere. This is like a two lane highway, basically.


And if you pull off, like if you just try to go to the side, like, you know, if you got a flat tire or whatever, you can't even sit there. They set it up so that that's all considered their property. There's no where to even pull off and sit if you wanted to, or protest if you wanted to. Yeah, exactly.


I mean, millions of dollars were spent to accomplish that. Moscovitch originally ordered that that highway be shut down, but it is an evacuation route for the Hemmat Valley in case of earthquake. So it could not be shut down. So in lieu of that, Scientology paid for all of those road improvements and all of the planning of the trees and the irrigation and the cactuses, et cetera, et cetera, to make it impossible for anybody to stop in front of their property.


OK, I mean, one of the things that Tammy did accomplish was getting Scientology to have to talk to the sheriff's department about Heber Jentzsch.


And in doing so, the sheriff's report says that he does have a physical condition, that he is under medical care, that he has a full time nurse. Well, that's bullshit. Or not the full time nurse that he has a physical infirmity or condition proves that what she was saying was not untrue.


They tried to say she did what she was concerned about, was founded. It's exactly right.


This is a very well founded. She had a perfect basis for making this request for the welfare check to be done. And the proof of it is what happened when they went to do the welfare check. First of all, he wasn't there because he was at a doctor's appointment, but they refused to identify what condition he was at the doctor's appointment for and then said they didn't even know which doctor it was. And then when he came back and they went and saw him, he had a full time nurse.


And then the next thing that happens is letters get sent from Scientology lawyers and some lawyer that they hired on behalf of Heber, saying he doesn't even know Tammy. He's never met her. Well, right.


That causes you to wonder whether he has lost his faculties, whether he is suffering from memory loss, because not only had he met her and we had video of them together, he had written her a letter one month before a four page letter.




Previously, and then they are sending these threat letters saying he doesn't even know who she is and she has no basis for doing this check because she has no relationship with him. Right.


And I just don't understand how this is not considered elder abuse. I don't understand why there is no nothing in place that anybody can do when it comes to Scientology that could protect our children and our elders.


I appreciate what Tammy did tremendously, too. And I meant it when I said to her, I wish you were the grandma of my.


I know, Mike. I know. I know. I know. I know. Don't make me cry like, OK. But you're getting teary eyed, I know. OK, I know, Mike, but I know, I know. I know.


I know this is very personal to you. And I know for your boys that they don't have their grandparents. I know. I know. Right? Yeah. One of the great things about having a podcast, Mike, like as as we mentioned before, is that we can give up to date fair gaming antics of Scientology and their front groups by talking about it as it happens recently.


Ed Parkin of the Stan League, which is a front group for Scientology, claiming to be the defender of the First Amendment. And so they sprinkle in little things from real organizations doing real work in this area. They sprinkled in with the hundreds, if not thousands of tweets that they do against me, you and anyone who has spoken out against Scientology. Right. What do they have? About 50?


Yeah, yeah. A bunch of social media identities that really are all just one thing. Right.


And so just so you all know, you'd look at Ed Parkin's account. He parades himself around as a minister wearing a what do they call my God, what are those minister ministers Colora ministers garb?


You know, he wears this thing. He's got this weird thing that he claims is what symbolizes his ministerial status in Scientology. There's purple ribbon with a with a medal that looks like Tom Cruise's Freedom Medal on it.


Right. There are other front group is the interfaith coalition. And they have they have just they're just an awful, hateful group that's connected to websites called the Freedom Media Ethics.


And they have since created other front groups on social media to make them appear as though they're legitimate. But but Ed Parkin and Scientology, of course, has me followed. And and they have posted a picture of me and body shaming me recently.


But that but that isn't really the issue because I could give a shit about it.


What I do care about is that somebody who's claiming to be a minister and somebody who's verified on Twitter is somebody who's connected to a religious organisation, calling themself a church with tax exemption, thinks that in this time and in this day and age that it's appropriate to not only body shame me and as well, former Sea Org members like Amy Scobee, they called her a whale. They have a website up of her. And many hate websites are up, former Scientologists and sewer members who have spoken out.


And by the way, once Oser sends out a tweet like this is kind of like the Scientology bat signal out to the world, to other Scientologists, parishioners of Scientology, that these people are OK to attack and ridicule and stalk and bully fair game.


The intention of this kind of organized, make organized attacks is to silence people from speaking up and speaking out and Scientology and going to tell you this. You can go fuck yourself. You can get every fucking picture of me, double chin, fat ass stomach hanging out. I will not shut up until you are. Shut the fuck down.


Go on, Mike. I expected to follow that lead while you were going to say something smart.


The only the only thing that I was going to say about that Leah is silencing is exactly what L. Ron Hubbard laid out is the objective of the Office of Special Affairs. A dismissed attack is the product of fair game. That is the end result of fair game. And it is what he says is to be accomplished. These people are to be shut down and shut up.


And this is then this is the purpose. That's exactly what they are doing. And that is what the standard league is.


Despite claiming that they are champions of the free speech and the First Amendment and this and that, they are just an excuse that is all just an excuse to try and give legitimacy to what they really do, which is spend all of their time seeking to destroy and silence people who speak about things that Scientology doesn't want spoken about.




Now, Mike, let's post on the on the website the the policy that you just described dismissed attackers.


And let's also let's also put up there the current Twitter handles for all of these front group, EBP Stanley, it's Ed Parkin at EPI Stanley.


But then there are about 50 others now. They buy all of their followers. And then as Scientologists, they. Mandate that all Scientologists follow these accounts or create fake accounts so that they appear to have followers and this is what they do all day, all night, is figure out how to launch these organized attacks on people speaking. And I hope that you are not discouraged. Listen, when you do the right thing, you're going to sometimes take a hit.


You have to be willing to take the hit.


There are a small group of us, which is why we keep talking about it, that are willing to do the work and willing to take the hits. But we need more people who are willing to take the hits with us. And so don't let this discourage you, because that is the intention of Scientology's policies, is to silence you. I promise you, you will survive it. We we are still here. We are still breathing and we are doing the right thing.


So, again, you guys, thank you so very much for listening to this podcast, Scientology Fair Game. It means the world to us, Mike.


Yeah. And if you want more information about anything we've talked about or a whole lot of documentation of things, go to Fair Game podcast dot com or come to my blog, Mike Reinders blog. There is tons of additional information there.


Thank you again, guys speccing. Hey, I'm Steve Greenberg, the host of Eyharts new podcast, Speed of Sound. Speed of Sound is a music history podcast that gives you an all access pass into the songs and sounds that have become the soundtrack to our lives. We'll take you back in time and straight through today's charts to tackle Pop's top songs and most sensational scandal filled stories. Listen and follow speed of sound on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts.


Hey, everybody, it's been Higgins and his Ashlei, and we're the hosts of the almost famous podcast. I was The Bachelor and know first hand how dating twenty five people at one time is not easy. And I was on the show a time or two or four, but I met my husband, so I'm proof that the process works. We do interviews with the cast members creating the headlines and we know pretty much everyone. So we're a reliable source.


Listen to Almost Famous on the I Heart radio app, on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.