Every once in a while, I hear a story that really inspires me, and this one happens to be about a new brand name, Taboo. So Taboos founder Natalie was talking to her mother, as we do. And for her, the changes of menopause had drastically affected her emotional and physical comfort with sex. And like I hear from all of you, too often, she was not ready to accept any of that. So Natalie set out to create a solution for those who've lost the ability to enjoy intimacy.

So Taboos Offering is the first sexual wellness kit for menopause. It includes a purposely formulated organic lubricant and an extremely unique vibrator. It's slim, it's ergonomic, super easy to use and has a heating system in the tip, which makes everything more comfortable. And the heat is the key here. So when you use the lubricant, it helps stimulate blood flow. It can help women with improved lubrication, stronger vaginal muscles, reduced incontinence. You know, the sneeze and pee, it can help with your libido.

It's really a powerful thing to do. You could do it like few times a week. You just kind of lay back with the massager, which is also like a vibrator. I know that I always talk about vibrators. Maybe you already have some. But what about other people in your life that maybe your mothers or your friends or wives who just aren't enjoying sex the way you know they can? Well, taboo is just a great way to help them return to intimacy.

So whether it's for you or someone you care about, check out Taboo right now. Go to sex with Emily. Dot com slash taboo. That is sex with Emily. Dot com slash taab you.

If you've never seen anyone visually and then you see them, you're going to know within five seconds whether that's a fit for you. And I think it's really lovely and polite to say really great to meet you in a visual way. But it's not a romantic attraction for me.

That's the nicest thing you could ever say to anyone looked into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed with five, six eyes that mock our secret bedroom eyes. They call them in a bygone day. You're listening to sex with Emily.

I'm Dr. Emily, and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex.

Today, I'm joined by my dear friend and frequent contributor, Sex with Emily, psychological astrologer, therapist and sex educator Dr. Jennifer Friede to talk about how to set healthy boundaries in your relationship. So if you don't know a boundary is about knowing your own limits, you know what you are comfortable with in a relationship and what you're not.

If you're codependent or a people pleaser, you just can't find yourself in situations where you feel taken advantage of or you're wondering, how did I get here? Why did I do that?

You're going to want to know about boundaries. They're essential to a healthy life and healthy relationships with others, because when you clearly communicate your boundaries and what you're into, your partner will then be able to understand your needs. Now, this shows up in sexual relationships. You know, maybe your partner wants to have sex, but you just want to make out. And instead of having sex, because you don't want to disappoint your partner pretending you're into it when you're not set a boundary, you could say, I'm not comfortable having sex with you tonight, but I'd like to keep hanging out for a while.

How about that? Now, that's a healthy boundary. We also answer a bunch of your questions like how to avoid drama when you're the third in a threesome relationship, how to let someone know you're not into them without ghosting. If talking escort's is considered cheating and what to do if your partner is more interested in meeting their sexual desires than your own? Intentions with Emily for each episode, let's set an intention, so when you're listening, we want to get to listening to this episode, how could it help you?

Maybe you're like, I want to know what boundaries are and how to set them in an appropriate way. My intention is to show you how learning to express what you really need a relationship, even if it's difficult, can alter the course of all your relationships for the better. We've had so many new listeners to the show, and I just want to welcome everyone to the set with Emily family. So glad you're here. Don't miss our website. We've so many great articles on our site like how do I stop thinking about my ex or how do I last longer in bed?

Given all of our podcasts? Wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe and review it can't wait to hear from you. You can always submit your questions to feedback at Sex with Emily Dotcom. And also, don't forget to check out Dr. Jennifer Freed's book, Use Your Planets Wisely, and you can also find her online at Jennifer Friede dot com. Enjoy the show.

Jennifer Freed, thank you for being here today with me, I'd love to come and be with you because I think this is one of the most important topics we need to unbuckle, so to speak, because we're shameless. We don't feel alive.

Wow. We're shame lives. We don't feel alive. Yeah. Wow.

And I think sexuality in particular is one of the biggest caves of shame that we all have even now, you know, and boundaries are all a part of that. Like, imagine a world in which every single person felt completely entitled to love their body, whatever shape it was to love the sex they loved, to not like the sex. They didn't like the frequency, the timing. Oh, my God.

Can you just paint a picture of a beautiful world, how you wrote this wonderful article for Maria Shriver, the Sunday paper. And I just thought, oh, my God, let's finally break down boundaries. What they are, why we need them. I mean, I feel like I'm always learning boundaries, too.

Well, they're a moving target. You know, one thing, when we think of a boundary, it's actually something that we're constantly having to decide in negotiating relationship. It's not like the boundary I made yesterday on the kind of quiet time I needed that day is the same one I might meet today. So the most important thing about setting boundaries is that you have to check in with yourself deeply first so that you can be honest and authentic about what this current boundary setting entails.

And in my article, it really covers the difference between implicit boundaries and explicit boundaries. And I want to give my partner Rendi full credit. She came up with that concept, but once she did, I went, oh, my God, that's everything.

So let's give you let's break it down into implicit and explicit boundary. Thank you. Let's just take the topic of touch, OK? So implicit boundary around touch can go either way. It could be let's say I'm hanging out with a guy I'm attracted to and he moves toward me and I'm not quite ready yet to do something, so I just move away. That's an implicit boundary. Another implicit boundary with touch is this happens a lot with the teams I work with because they don't know yet.

They'll get right in somebody's face and they won't ask permission to get closer. They'll just smash up right there. And all of this is implicit. They didn't say, hey, I'd really like to get closer to you and smell your hair. They just move right in. Right. And on the other hand, if somebody is getting close to you and you don't want them to implicit his move away explicit is hey, hey, guy, back up a second.

I'm not quite ready for this. The implicit is not stated. It's implied. And the explicit is when we actually have a very clear contract with somebody about whatever that boundary might be.

A lot of us just operate in the realm of implicit boundaries and then they sometimes come up as we get and then we have resentments because we like. Well, I thought you could have read my body language. I pulled away. Why didn't you know or I gave you a look? So I think today would be so important to move into that. How do we have explicit boundaries? So let's say I'm out with a guy and he leans over, tries to kiss me and I distract myself.

I pick up the phone and then I'm like, oh, we should go time. Time's up, you guys. Early day tomorrow. And because I don't want to kiss this guy on a date and then I get home and the next day's texting me. Can we go out again? Can we do all these things? And that to me was like an implicit avoidant boundary. I was avoiding a situation. But what could I explicitly have said in that in regards touch there?

This is why I think most explicit boundary making you have to think about in advance so hard, usually in shock. When somebody violates a boundary, you're usually you're in your reptile brain fear flea, you know, something like that. Right. So you have to know if you're out there dating that people are going to do things you don't want to engage in. And so I would just have a handy sentence ready. I'm not ready for this right now.

That would just change the entire dynamic. It's not mean. It's not blaming. It's not shaming. I'm not ready for this right now. Right. Yeah. Just take a moment.

You know, let's take a moment. I'm not ready for this right now. And then I think what happened is a lot of times in myself is that I just felt, well, it's easier just to go along with it than to say that to somebody because I don't want to deal with their own. I don't want to hurt them. And that seems really hard to get those words out of my mouth. But you make it sound so easy, Jen.

I've practiced a really, really long time. And I'm not going to say it's easy, but like anything you practice, it gets easier and easier and easier just to be upfront and honest with people. And I have found unless they have a personality disorder, I'm going to make that disclaimer every single time people are. Appreciate it, because, you know, these women are men that are getting mixed signals and they don't know how to read them, they're coming back with text, they're coming back with more needs.

They're coming back. And now it becomes a lengthier rejection process.

Right now. Here's the other thing. Just because you say no to someone and someone's hurt doesn't mean you did the wrong thing, right? So many times were like, well, I set a boundary and this person got mad at me. And that could happen sometimes. But the people who are healthy do appreciate, I think, overall. Right. They appreciate that you're telling them. Yes, no, black, white. What's on the table was off the table rather than being evasive.

People appreciate when you set a boundary. And if it doesn't seem like they appreciate, I've appreciated boundaries. When people have said about me, I get a little bit like, oh, you know, because we're not used to it. But then I'm like, I really respect that person more. I know the lines to stay. It it's just it's easier.

It's way easier to say exactly what you mean. Instead of having everyone playing a decoder game, you know, it's just very hard because we don't have all the same signals and all of that. And I think there's one thing I do want to say, because boundary setting is a vulnerable thing on both sides. The person doing it feels very vulnerable. And the person hearing it, obviously that the most important thing is always safety, emotional safety, physical safety.

So I'll give you an example. I live in Montecito. I go out a lot and I wear my mask and I'm really devoted about that, even though I've been vaccinated. And I'll be in line and somebody will get right up next to me without a mask and a big attitude. Now, in that case, I'm not going to confront them and say, I need you to step away from me. I will step away and not say a thing, because I don't want to get into a conflict with somebody because I can already sense the situation isn't safe.

And I think we have to always go back to that. You know, you've got to protect yourself. But I think where we've made a big assumption, a mistake is thinking that we have to take care of other people's feelings by not setting a boundary. Right, exactly. It never works out. I'll give you another example. Yeah, I love example. There's a lovely friend of a friend who's a really great woman. She came over for some reason, maybe in astrology reading because, you know, I do that.

And then she said, I, I live near you. I'd really like to strike up a friendship and have you come over. And I said to her, I absolutely adore you. Honestly, I do not have time enough right now in my life for my dearest friends. So I'm a no on that. But don't take that as an insult. I just don't want you to miss this, OK?

I'm so glad you brought this up, Jen. That is so tricky. I've had so many situations that people want to be friends and then I feel bad and then I make plans and I cancel. So just to let someone know this has nothing to do with you, I actually don't have the bandwidth right now to I have the people in my life that I love.

And guess what? I see her at my other friend's house. We get the warmest hugs, not any more, but we used to.

And I feel like we're totally good because I really meant it. And it's true. And Emily, you're a lot like me. You've got your crew. You hardly ever see them. The last thing you need to do is add another person on the roster. You know, it is it's hard.

That's been hard for me. And then what I've done in the past is I've avoided it like I think, oh, I'll get back to him or that I make plans and cancel.

So just stating straight up what is actually going on with you right now. Why why is it so hard for you to let this person know what you need? And that's why it helps to kind of stop and think, what do I want? Right. And without worrying more about their feelings and your own a stranger sometimes. What do you do if you set a boundary with someone and they break it and then you have to start it again?

In that case, I think the only move is to ignore their behavior and take a couple of days away and then have a conversation about the conversation like we had this conversation and then you didn't actually do what we agreed on. Tell me about that. But you can't do it right in the moment because it's too hot, because they're clearly not listening. And so they're into some kind of complex themselves.

I love that. Tell me about it. Tell me why you think that that happened. What part of it it's kind of like what part of me setting this boundary didn't you understand?

Exactly. It's like we had this agreement and you violated it again. Tell me about that, because it's not working for me and you, but you got to take a couple days off because people are very defensive because they obviously did something unconsciously. Unless they're openly hostile, then get the hell away from them.

Right. Like they're toxic. They don't listen if they have a personality disorder, as you said. Yeah.

Because sometimes people won't adhere to boundaries because they have a little bit of sociopathy or conduct disorder. And you've really got. Keep your distance from those characters. Yeah, you do, and I guess that's also the answer if it keeps happening over and over and over again. And then you also know that you see them not respecting anyone else's boundaries either. That's a sign. This is a person that just it's it's about them and it'll never be about you.

Yeah.

So what do you do if you haven't set a boundary and then you have to retroactively set one?

Well, to me, the first thing you have to do is sit down with them and say we're so bad at boundaries. Like you have to own it, like we're horrible at this. And so baby steps, like I'll name one. I'd like you name one you'd like. You've got your scaffolding. So you really have to go back to the beginning and just declare with each other you've been merged and you have never done boundaries and you're both pleasers and like, let's just figure this out now because boundaries actually make for better erotic tension.

I do want to say that, oh, let's talk about boundaries and erotic tension. Well, what makes you so hot for somebody in the very beginning is that they seem like a distinct other a distinct other. They're not you. And the reason I think we get so sexually attracted to people is we want to kind of get through what we perceive as such a boundary of someone else. And the closer you get to people and the looser your boundaries are, usually the less hot for them sexually you are because it's a distinct autonomous person that gets us turned on.

So true, it's the unknown.

And then also, even with kink player, dominant, submissive BDM kind of play when there's boundaries too, you know exactly what's on the table, what's off the table, then you get to kind of play with those edges, you know, underneath all of this resistance to telling people who we really are is a deep shame, a shame that it's not OK to want what we want and to be who we are.

And let's say somebody is getting in the sex position with you, even though you like the other positions and you don't want that sex position. I know. So including me. I know so many people that will just go along with it and hope it just gets over with. Yeah. Why wouldn't it be amazing, especially if you really want to have a good sexual chemistry to go Porres. Let's go back to that other one or try this.

You know, this is the practice. Exactly. I've gone through so much sex in my life where I just think it's easier to just get it over with that to state what I want. And I even steamrolled over my own desires because I used to just think about prioritize what my partners wanted over my own. So that's been a huge practice, which is why I think boundary setting is such an important lesson. And in the moment with your partner, you could say, yeah, I don't want to try this, but I want to try something else.

And it's just I don't know, I guess it's OK to say no and also not make assumptions that just because your partner and this goes into the consent conversation as well, but just because your partner wanted something in the past doesn't mean that they want it the next time you're together. They might want to go to the future, but we can set boundaries every time we're with someone as well when it comes to sex in the bedroom.

And that's why I was saying, don't ever think because you've set this boundary even the next day. It's the exact same conversation, right? A part of it is being nimble and flexible and creating relationships with people where we have this permission to not be the same person every day. Because who is? Let's be honest.

And that would be boring. OK, let's talk about communication, boundaries, boundaries around communicating well rather than ignoring what someone says or distracting yourself or pretending that, you know, you didn't hear them or you don't want to hear that. They have to say, how do we communicate?

I have such a good example of this. It's really touchy, but here it goes. So I have a close friend and he and I've been friends for a long time. And every now and then in conversations when I'm there with other people, like at a party, he'll say something about, oh yeah, this person, they're Jewish. Oh, this person, they're Jewish.

And I'd be always thinking, why the hell do you have to talk about whether or not I don't understand. But I didn't ever want to confront him at a party because of what a downer. And I don't really understand what's going on here. So one day I was with him at just me and him and his wife and he said that thing again. And I go, hey, let's call him Jeff. Jeff, what's with all the naming? Who's Jewish?

Like, Hello, what is that about? And he goes, Oh, you know, I love the Jews. Like, I love them. I said, OK, like and he's Italian. He goes, you know, the Italians. The Jews. I said, But I just need you to know how it lands when you keep pointing out somebody's ethnicity or whatever is it kind of feels offensive, like why do you have to single that out about them?

It's not a universal trait or something. And I said, so be careful with that one, because I think people could really misread you. And now I'm understanding it's. Out of affection, he goes, thank you, but it was really it took months. That's yet. That's a great point. That's exactly it. And you said, I see that you're doing it with the best intentions. It's done out of affection, but it's not going to land that well.

And you didn't attack him and he said, thank you. That's a beautiful example.

So the conversation one is all about finding the right time, having a really good, clear breath because it's never good and reactivity to say what you need to say, even though it's scary. I mean, I was scared. My heart was pounding to say, you know, what's this about? I didn't know why he kept doing it. So it was scary. Yeah. But I found out it's actually because he has this big crush on Jewish people.

OK, great. Right. It's always scary.

That's the thing that you've been teaching this stuff for years. You talk with people, but it's still never easy. It's we're not we're not wired for it to be comfortable having difficult conversations. You had to walk away. Maybe think about it for a while. It sounds like a few months, but you handle it.

OK, here's another one. I've got example after. I love it because this is kind of my edge is today. I was supposed to have this appointment on Zoome with a medical practitioner and they didn't call and they didn't call. And I sent out a text and I sent a text and they didn't call. And then they were forty five minutes late and they called and I'm on my way to something and it's a first time thing. And this guy goes, Hey, I'm so glad I caught you.

Sorry I didn't catch you before it went to voicemail and I went actually it didn't, you didn't call me. It didn't go to voicemail. I don't feel comfortable working with you because I don't deal well with people not telling the truth.

And he was like, whoa. But it was it was real for me. Like, don't blow smoke up the you know what? Why weren't fair? You didn't call the phone tells you whether somebody called or not. Right, exactly. I say that you had just started this phone call with, hey, I really blew it. I wasn't there when I said I'd be we'd be good, but you had to go lie about it again.

You just said that. See, this is the practice. So many times I've I feel like I've gotten into a lot of trouble in my life for just letting things slide because I give them the benefit of the doubt. And I don't want to have these conversations. I might have been like, OK, I get it. But I heard good things about this doctor and I want to work with them. But the truth is, people show this is such a great example of people show you who they are right away.

I couldn't agree more with that because, again, at our nonprofit, we've hired and worked with people, as you have now, for twenty one years. And I promise you, without exception, no one that started badly actually was a good team member, not one. So you kind of see people's colors right off. And if you're making a lot of excuses and rationalizations for them and this goes for lovers too.

Well, let's talk about that. Well, I can't stand it when people are going out with people and like, there's all these red flags just zooming. Like they didn't text you back. They ghosted you. They sleep with you. They didn't, you know, whatever happens. And then the person's going to say, oh, but then they were so this when I was with them and they were so amazing in bed and I'm listening, going, oh, my God, this is never going to work.

I well, also, I can admit a thing I did years ago that might help your listeners. I had a very close man friend. He was like my best friend and he was so hot and so attractive and flirty and a really good friend in some ways. And then he was exhibiting some very bad other behavior. But because I was getting so many benefits from these other things, I just kept turning my head like that doesn't exist. That doesn't exist because I was just getting fed on these kind of other levels of erotic friendship.

And he was really kind there were other things, but there was some very bad behaviors going on and it ended up all blowing up in my face. I mean, it really it's like the bad behaviors became cumulative and caused a certain incident that wasn't directly about me. But then I had to just go, what the hell was I doing there? Just because it felt great to have his attention, it wasn't good enough to compromise my values. Right, exactly.

That's what it is about, steamrolling over our values. That's a great example. It's funny because all my examples, and I'll be very honest right now is mostly I literally haven't exercised my boundaries around people and I've just let things slide mostly and work relationships, hiring a contractor or somebody to do something freelance. And I just I've also held that fear of it's the conversation of saying I wasn't happy with how this went. And I think to go back to why boundaries are so hard, then I didn't grow up in an environment where it was OK.

No one ever asked me what I was feeling, my opinion, what I was thinking. And even if I tried to voice it, it wasn't entertaining. It didn't matter what I wanted for dinner or where I wanted to go or how my day was.

And so I think not having that practice in. It was much easier to go along with people with what they wanted than to speak up for myself, and so I really had to learn through therapy, through good friendships.

People like you, dear friends, that it's it's OK. And when you do it, there's like nothing nothing feels better than setting a boundary. But it's just I even look back at the last few years, so many times. So, yeah. I want you to go easy on yourself because I'm trying to do it as well. And I've been practicing boundaries a lot and it's still hard.

And I'm going to tell you that it's like two steps forward, 10 steps back. Because, you know, the other thing I very much been present to and so I want all your listeners to think about this, whether they're male or female or other identified for a woman to set a boundary, she's often called a bitch. And I got to tell you, that has back me up sometimes, you know, like, oh, I don't want this person to think this of me.

If I say that wasn't a good job or you didn't actually do what you said you were going to do or whatever, I think that that's an underneath cultural narrative that has really pushed back on a lot of women from saying their truth.

I think you're absolutely right. That's it. Or what you should or your fridge or your fridge because you don't want to have sex.

You said no or you don't want to or you don't want to have anal penetration just because you don't you know, it's like, oh, then you're really like an uptight prude or something like all this name calling. And underneath that, especially for women. We grew up. I grew up. You grew up having to defer our needs and wants in the primacy of a male relationship.

Absolutely. They were first and foremost, what they wanted was important. I almost feel like that was in like the doctrine of becoming a woman, like of a man ask for it, especially sexually or romantically. You want to be a good partner, to be a good partner, you had to say yes to them.

So I want to say on behalf of the male identified people, I have noticed that that complicity that women were a part of in that same their wants and needs have also created very big distances in male female relationships, because you can only think in your own lives when you've steamrolled your way into something. It's not intimacy and it doesn't feel good. So the fact that men aren't getting the true feedback is not advantageous to them either.

We'll all benefit from setting better boundaries. I have a lot of friends whose moms have said to them, well, just give them a blowjob when they want one. Just do it. That's your duty as a wife.

Well, but there's another side to this that I do want to say, which is controversial, which is this. There is a woman named Pat Love who was what she calls low testosterone. She wasn't that sexual in her husband, who was an athletic coach, high tea, very sexual. And so she was getting sick of how much sex he wanted. So she, as a scientist thought, I'm going to prove that you don't need that much sex in your life.

It's not that important. So what she did is she started doing all this research. It kind of came out that it was important. So then she thought she would get shot up with some testosterone and just kind of see, like major doses. She said she she would and could hump anything all the time. Like, it didn't matter to her what when where that she became a beast of, like, sexual desire. So then she had more empathy for her husband.

But the whole point of the story is her recommendation. And long term marriages with women and men is if you got a low woman, sometimes it's the opposite. But if you have a low team woman and a hit man, it is good to do quickies even when you don't feel like it, because men get intimate by having sex. Women need the intimacy. But it's kind of helped me in my mind because sometimes in my long term relationship, oh gosh, I don't really feel like having sex, but I always know that we're way better off when we've had sex, like it's just such a good thing to do.

Yes, it's true. I don't want to make it like it's all bad to give in to sex. Sometimes when you don't want it, it's just you've got to really choose the why of it.

Why am I doing this right now?

Why am I why don't I want to like if you're just doing it to please your partner and it's something you don't want to do or an act do you want to do? Fine. But if months have gone by, your weeks have gone by, you still don't want you still don't want to do that. It's good yourself. What is it that you don't want?

And sometimes, honestly, in the long term relationships, you get lazy, lazy, sexual laziness.

And honestly, you don't have the same like motivation. You have to practice sex to to like keep it going and get good at it with a long term relationship, you know. Yes.

I love that example. Women, take a quick break. But we come back. We have a question from Victoria. She's always a third or a unicorn and wants to avoid drama in her. Threesomes will help her create some boundaries right after this.

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This is Victoria. Twenty seven in Tennessee. She's navigating being a unicorn on dating apps. She's twenty seven and discovered her love for being a third in a female female male threesome, a female male female or a male female. All the threesomes, a puja communication, especially one having a threesome. However, I have three horrible experiences these past few times, not sexually. That's been incredible. Experimenting with things I've never imagined. However, apart from the couple I would be seeing, would go batshit crazy because of jealousy.

After the fourth or fifth time we would hook up. I very much establish boundaries, communication and limits before meeting the couples, a.k.a. will I sleep over? Do you allow kissing when texting? Do you all prefer group separate or all the above the list goes on. However, the situation I was in recently was insane, even after all the boundaries were set. Are there any recommendations how to keep things just fun to avoid the relationship drama? I'm a unicorn because I'm emotionally unavailable working with a therapist to get over some sexual trauma to fix that haha.

All right, Victoria.

Well, first off, good for you for navigating your trauma by still getting your needs met sexually, saying I am not going to get emotionally involved with you, which is why it makes it easier to set boundaries when you don't have your emotions in it. But if you've had three horrible experiences, what I'm hearing is that you saw the couples four or five times and maybe that's too much because if you have sex with someone four or five, I could see the first time could be great of four or five times.

There's some familiarity. One of the partner gets jealous because their partner is a little bit more friendly with you this time.

So maybe that's a boundary that you have to set by rolling back and saying, I'm just going to be with each couple max of three times.

I don't know. What do you think, Jen?

I'm just smiling so hard because I just love the courage and the and the bravery of this woman that's just out there going, I want to be a three of anybody, you know, I just love it. I agree with you completely, Emily. I think that you can make all the rules in the world and they will never legislate deep, dark emotions. Never, ever not. And, you know, jealousy and possessiveness. You cannot make a rule to make those go away so too many times creates bonding and attachment for most people.

Yeah, exactly. I realize that, too, when I tried to keep relationships casual and if I see someone once a week, it's fine. But when it gets into two to three times a week, you start to get attached. It becomes a relationship, you know. So there is a big time component when you're thinking about intimacy and relationships and people even besides myself, email. Oh, well, it was casual, but then we started acting as if we were in a relationship, but we weren't.

And that's because usually it's time. Too much time.

Yeah. Too much frequency of anything creates kind of glue. Yes.

OK, this is from CAT twenty eight in Pennsylvania. About a month ago I match with a guy at a dating app. We connected right away. We were messaging back and forth ever since I started to create an idea in my head about what he'd be like in person. I developed a huge crush on him. Finally, this past weekend, we had our first virtual date. To my surprise, he was like nothing I imagined I could tell. Within five minutes there wasn't going to be any connection.

The date went on for two hours because I couldn't figure out how to end it. Oh know.

This is a nightmare is a nightmare, though.

He wants to have an in-person date, but I'm not into him. I don't want to hurt his feelings or make him think you did anything wrong. I wasn't feeling it ghosting. It would be easy, but I know how crappy that feels. How do I tell him I'm not into him without hurting his feelings? I love this because so many of us, because we can eradicate ghosting right now, we can help people realize how to let someone know.

You simply don't have a romantic attraction for him.

That's it. Not feeling it, do you? Just say it. But she spent two hours on a Zoome date. I mean, I've spent two hours at a dinner date, we know very recently.

But this is a I mean, to me, my first thing is you just say, hey, it was so nice to meet you.

Our conversation was great, but I. I don't feel a romantic connection to you. I don't feel that thing. But I wish you well with dating.

I like your words the best. I don't feel a romantic attraction to you. And I think it's very fair game. If you've never seen anyone visually and then you see them, you're going to know within five seconds whether that's a fit for you. And I think it's really lovely and polite to say, you know, this is really great to meet you in a visual way, but it's not a romantic attraction for me. That's the nicest thing you could ever say to anyone.

Yeah.

And I think we have to remind people that you don't owe anyone anything. Isn't it interesting that you have one date with someone you think, oh, I don't want?

This person's feelings, who I barely know, so I'm just going to go to them, which is actually going to hurt their feelings more because we're so afraid of what fear people being mad at us. We don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. So we just actually end up hurting it more because we don't want to have these conversations.

Well, let me ask you this, Emily, because I'm curious. It's happened to me in my life. Yeah. Have you had anyone say to you directly, this isn't a romantic sexual attraction for me?

Have you had it happen?

I I've had it happen. I had a guy say to me once we went on a few dates and it was kind of hot, sexy make out sesh. And then he he didn't for like a week I could tell we weren't he didn't call me or something. And he said that he was starting to date somebody, but who knows, maybe that was an excuse. But I never had anyone say they weren't attracted to me in that way.

That's because you're just too hot. But let me tell you, I have had that happen. OK, tell me what happened. Well, you know, when I was younger, I was dating men and women, everybody all over the place. And I would just hit on anybody. I mean, I was like, oh, this is crazy. So there would be a couple of times there would be a woman or a man and like, I'm not into you.

And guess what? Freedom, freedom. Don't take my time. Don't take up my space. It didn't, like, throw me down a big hill because it wasn't like I was making my entire life on this one person. Right. I was just out there really seeing what was possible. Yeah, exactly.

And allowed you to move on quickly. I think the more honest we are with people, first off, we feel better about it. They're going to feel better. You're allowing them to move on quicker, just like don't don't obsess about why you weren't enough for this person. There's so many people in the world to I think that's very healthy.

So now let's go the other way, though, OK? I've had to tell at least because, you know, I was out there at least twenty five people. I wasn't attracted to them. So how many have you had to do that with?

Oh, I've had to do it many times to people and maybe I've blocked that. Someone said that to me. It's not I don't think so. But I maybe but I've said to many people, I'm just not feeling it.

I just wasn't feeling attraction all the time. Even sometimes you say it and they're like, oh, well, I wasn't either. And they get that attitude because they don't want to be rejected. But that's better than the alternative. So let them protect themselves, let them do what they need to do. And I think something else advice here to everybody listening to Cat Story, she said they were messaging every day for a month until they finally met.

That's on you two. I highly recommend that people do not spend months and months and months texting with someone and you haven't seen them yet. That is time you'll never get back. You're building this image of a guy in your head and then you meet them and it's, you know, in five minutes you can't get that time back.

So let's have a recipe for that. If you're chatting with anyone or on the phone with anyone, get a visual within a week.

Yeah, definitely week and not a photo. Actual moving picture.

A moving picture, dude, on face time. People are doing that now anyway because the pandemic and I love getting to see someone online before you meet.

I don't want to drive across town, sit down and be like, oh, so OK, this is about cheating. This is from Rachel. Twenty four Massachusetts. Love your show. I learned so much. This is about porn and I'd love your help. I'm a very open minded person. I don't care if you watch porn or what you're into. My boyfriend watches porn sometimes trans porn, which is fine, but I saw on his phone he messages trans escorts are female escorts and never goes through with it.

And even though he told me he was on Grindr, we had a long conversation about it. He was confused as to why he liked it, but he thinks it's taboo. And I talk to my own therapist. She said not to worry. I feel like he crosses the line sometimes when he messages someone. I feel like it's cheating or might be too jealous. I don't want to come off like I'm against it. I would just appreciates guidance because it makes me feel insecure sometimes knowing that it's something I need to work on.

Let me know. Thinks so. This is interesting. So it is a great boundary question because only you get to decide in your relationship what is cheating and what is not. So this would be the matter of speaking openly nasty about her jealousy and about what a boundary is in the relationship, because to some couples, texting someone else, especially an escort, might be considered cheating and it might be hurtful. So there just might be some work. You need to maybe find out a little bit more about it.

I know he said to you it's nothing. But I think, well, tell me what goes on in the moment.

What do you feel in your body when you text these escorts? Are you waiting for them to get back to you? Because I don't really understand it. You could say to Rachel, like it to me. It makes me feel like I'm mad enough or that you want me to be trans. I mean, I think it's normal that you would be jealous, though, if you fight your partner's messaging someone a dating app. But I don't think it's cheating per say.

Every couple gets to decide what that is and their relationship. What do you think, Jen?

Well, No. One, I would be so jealous. So I just want to say that who would be jealous? No. To the very easiest way to find out what healthy balance. Trees are around something like this is say, OK, does that mean that tomorrow I'm going to start texting the certain kind of guy that I'm attracted to and not follow through with it, but have these kind of erotic little flirtations? Is that like now what our boundaries are?

Is that what you're hoping this relationship is going to be? Is this sort of dalliance on text with other erotic possibilities, like let's really talk about it. And I know for me, that's for me, that would be a no no, that would be a no. But God, I don't know. Like you're saying, Emily, that's up to you and your partner to discuss. But I never liked the idea that somebody is doing something unilaterally.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, make it a discussion. Is this the kind of relationship we want? Right.

I love that you made it universal and you said it's about both of them. Is this what we're doing now? Because I would now it's my turn to go texting people if that's what we're doing. And even if it's not something that you want to do, I think it's a great way to put it. I mean, Rachel, you found it on the phone, right? So you're digging for something and you just found it. So let's bring it all out in the open.

And the other thing for me is, you know, you can't help who you're attracted to. That's hard wired. I am so curious about trans attraction for this partner. And like, what is that? And what about it excites you? I think I have a little of that myself, so I think it's interesting. Yeah. So I think what is that?

And then to talk about it and get real with it so that you can get closer to the person you're trying to understand.

Because ultimately when we try to clarify these boundaries with someone, it actually ends up being a healthy conversation. You feel so much safer and closer to your partner. It's actually a beautiful thing. And then you understand your relationship dynamic so much better. It's it's clarifying, clarifying, clarifying.

And the other thing I've noticed for myself that might be true in this relationship is the less that we can really talk about and be understood around our attractions, the more compulsive they can become because of the shame.

Exactly. So maybe if your partner feels completely accepted around it, they might be less likely to do so. They might make it more about your relationship, right. That's when we act out, when we feel judged and shamed. All good points. Jen Freed. After the break.

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I feel like there are so many rules and conflicting opinions. And when the right time is to sleep with someone and maintaining a good reputation, being respected, for example, if you give in too early and then you're seen as too easy. How do I navigate these relationships? So it's interesting. How does she not get emotionally attached essentially? You know, that's a tough one.

I mean, it is tough to say I don't want to catch feelings. And now I did. And she went about sleeping with is when is the right time to sleep with someone? I don't believe that there's a certain, like, number of dates and times. You should wait three weeks. We get to decide the right time. So when you feel comfortable with someone, when you feel safe enough with somebody and also the thing about not wanting to get emotionally attached, I wonder what the like we heard from our earlier email who said that she knows she's of available, but she's working through trauma therapy.

So I want to know what is it about getting emotionally attached? That is an interesting to you. Are you working through that? And then what do you think about this job?

You and I pretty much agree on everything. I don't think anyone can quantify the days, the nights, the whatever. That's all ridiculous. It's all exterior based. You have to go with your inner knowing. But I can promise you this when in doubt, sex is not the answer. When in doubt, sex is not the answer. So it cannot be that you're having sex to try to bridge a big gulf of feeling connected. That's a bad reason.

So to me, the best time to have the first sexual encounter is when you're feeling so intimate that it feels organic to the situation.

It's great if you don't know, you know, if you don't know.

Oh, I don't know if I'm ready. I'm not. You're not ready now because why rush it? Honestly, there's no reason to rush sex except for trying to bury insecurity.

Right. Isn't it. Yeah, exactly. Because I don't want this person to judge me for not having sex with them. And it make me feel or we have nothing to talk about.

We better have sex. Exactly. Right now I feel bad.

They bought me dinner or whatever. I owe them something.

OK, this is from a sham. My partner right now isn't a BDM curious. I'm more into violence and pain than I am, but I was abused as a child and any violence pulls me out of the moment and I can't enjoy it. I tried and I can't do gentle slapping, biting, scratching at all that, but I definitely can't do choking or any real pain or serious the aggressive stuff. I told him this early on, but he's still pushing it.

Months later. There was a point last week where I got really upset, told to stop and it felt traumatizing. I wonder where boundaries have to be respected, not pushed, and whether violence is a boundary that should or shouldn't be pushed. I also wonder if this is just sexual incompatibility. If two people can agree on the level of violence they're OK with, how would you advise people on trying violence in the bedroom? What happens if one person is it OK but the other person wants it?

I mean, violence is never OK. If you have a contract and you're in a dominant submissive relationship and you have contracts and safe words and and then you have some kind of, you know, sex play consensually, that's OK. But this does not sound healthy to me, Jen.

Major red flags. I think that any kind of aggressive act that is not in respect of some of these spoken desires is a violation and there's no excuse for it. Right. It sounds like this person is trying to rationalize, like this is a sexual predator. It's not a sexual thing. It's not a it's not a sexual thing.

And I think that maybe it is an interesting going towards that in a traumatizing relationship where there was abuse. But then sometimes we're often attracted to those things that are bringing up traumatic memories. So I would say that this is a time to maybe work through this stuff, get into therapy. And I don't think a partner that's pushing your boundaries over and over and over again is the healthy person for you. So thank you for your email.

Yes. And I do want to mention one more category we didn't get to. Oh, yes.

Resources, because this has shown us so much in counseling people that women are men, it doesn't matter is giving and giving like, oh, the car, the food, the presents and the other one's taking, taking, taking, or the other one just takes it. It doesn't even ask for it. This is a very slippery slope when you don't have very clear boundaries around who's paying, what do we own together, what's mine, what's yours. I mean, this is fundamental because I had a really good friend and God bless her, she would go to Bali and be with this guy that she was really hot for.

And without even saying anything, he would expect her to pay for every single thing, every single thing. And, you know, she was a little blinded by the sexual stuff. But after a while, she'd be. To me, and I'd be like, no, that's not a good deal. No, not at all. And money is one of those areas that it's so hard for us. We don't talk about money and we don't talk about sex.

This is a great point. So he's making assumptions. And I think we see this at all gendered relationships, right, where maybe it was that one partner is always paying and the person is always taking is assuming, well, they wanted to pay. They said they wanted to pay. What I think you have to revisit these conversations in all relationships or at least have for the first time and then say, how are you feeling about how we're handling our resources?

So, Jan, give me some examples here, too.

Well, it's happened to me a lot because I am generous and then people might not remember, you know, but I think of one person in particular I was dating and they had less money than me at that time. And I took them out a couple of times. And the next thing I know, they wanted me to take care of their son and they wanted me to walk their dog. And like there was a lot of assumptions about what I owed them because of our differences economically and culturally, and was really a touchy subject because I could tell there was a whole bitterness attached to like, well, you owe me because I come from harder circumstances.

And I had to just say this isn't working for me because, yes, I wanted to take you out to dinner, but I don't want to take care of you. This isn't the arrangement we were making. We ever talked about this.

You know, it's such a fine line there, too, right? Because then you could feel that someone starts getting passive aggressive often around money, too. Well, you have all this money and why wouldn't you keep paying for me? And sometimes we do keep spending our money and doing stuff like that because we just don't we don't want to have the tricky conversations. Yes.

And one one more example, because this comes up a lot here in Monaco. So I want to say this, where there's the wealthy woman and then she gets the kind of hot younger guy and he's like so into it because she's going to be the sugar mama kind of thing. And almost 99 percent, I'm going to tell you statistic of basically anecdotal experience. The sex goes away because who wants to ask their mother, really, you know, if you're the sugar momma at some point, that gets really disempowering.

Yeah.

Well, what about the reverse, though? Women sleeping with their sugar daddy?

Well, that goes more to our psychology. If we do things we don't want to do because we want to keep the gravy train. Right. That's very different. But I do want to say I had a great success with the woman that called me. She was dating a guy who didn't have as much money, but he was doing fine. You know, it wasn't like he was rich, but he wasn't poor. He had a job. And I said, if you just follow this one advice because she was independently wealthy, I said, this will save your relationship.

Don't pay for him. Like, every now and then you can say, I'm going to go on a trip. I'd like you to come, OK, but don't start giving him money and paying for him. And she would call me like every few months and go, oh, I just want to just pay. I pay. But their sex life stayed alive because the boundary he was a man. She was a woman. She wasn't taking over his life even though he wished she would.

Of course he did.

Did he ever say anything to her to give or say, wish you'd pay for me more? No.

He'd drop hints like, oh, I only know six thousand dollars on this motorcycle, you know, whatever. Right. I'll drop pants all the time. It's just don't fill in the gap.

Don't fill in the gap. Keep the tension. Because when we provide people resources that they could have made for themselves, we give them a not so hidden message. You can't really do this on your own. You have to rely on me and that's sexy.

That's not sexy. And then you're giving them a crutch. So then they have another way they're doing. They can make the money, they can get out there. They're just sort of delaying something that they actually have to work on themselves. So we're actually not helping that. You're not helping them? Who I love the money want the money boundary is big.

Thank you, Jen. How can people find you? What's exciting? What's happening in your world? Jen, I just.

Well, I want people to follow me, Dr. Jennifer Freed on Instagram, because I'm posting my articles and some of my videos. And then Jennifer, free dot com. You can join the Venus Club. I'd really like to interact with people and know what's up. And my favorite topics are relationships, spirituality, astrology, sexuality and social justice. So get me up on all those things. And I'm just always so honored to be on this show with you, Emily, because over this time we've known each other.

I just love you more and more. Oh, Jen, thank you so much.

You're such a dear friend. You're so wise. I love having you on the show and I love reading all of your things that you're doing and all of your articles. And thank you for being a dear friend.

That's it for today's episode. See you on Tuesday. Thanks for listening. The sex with Emily. Be sure to, like, subscribe and give us a review wherever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend or partner. Believe me, if you get something out of it, they will too. We release shows on Tuesdays and Fridays and look out for a bonus episode every now and then. Find me on Instagram. YouTube. Facebook and Twitter, it's all at sex with Emily, and I've been told I get a really good newsletter, so sign up at sex with Emily Dotcom and don't forget to check out our blogs.

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