Tim Gallaudet, welcome to the show.

It's an honor to be here, Sean. Thank you for inviting me.

It's an honor to have you here. So you kind of came on my radar. I've been looking around at some of the UAP UFO stuff, and I've been hearing a lot about the water and how they possibly might be coming out of the water. There's been sightings, and so been looking for somebody to speak on that, and we ran across you. So thank you so much for being here. It's an honor to have you here as well. And, man, I am just really excited to pick your brain on what you know about all this stuff.

So let's go.

But everybody starts off with a introduction here, so if you don't mind. Admiral Tim Gallaudet, american oceanographer, retired rear admiral in the United States Navy, formally worked on the US Department of Commerce as the acting undersecretary of Commerce for Oceans and Atmosphere, also acting administrator of the National oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the NOAA. As of 2024, you're the CEO of Ocean Stl Consulting, LLC, host of the American Blue Economy podcast, prominent member of the UFO community, on the board of directors for Force Blue, honored as a distinguished graduate of the University of California, San Diego. You're a research affiliate for Harvard's Galileo project. You're on the board of the Soul foundation and Americans for Safe Aerospace. And you later this year have a book coming out on leadership.

There you go.

There we go.

That's some of the things.

Yeah, I'm sure I'm missing a handful of things. Anything in particular?

No, no, that's all good. That's enough.

That's enough. All right. Well, a couple things we got to crank out first, everybody that comes on the show.

Oh, I've been waiting for this. There you go.

Any guesses?

Gummies. Hey, hey.

Good guess.

Oh, how about that?

There they are. Made in the USA.

My youngest daughter. I'm gonna be her favorite person.

Really?

Oh, yeah. She loves these.

I'll give you some more for the ride.

Okay. Okay. Fantastic. Thank you.

But I also have a subscription account on Patreon, and so one of the perks that we give our patrons, who are our top supporters, we give them an opportunity to ask the current guest questions. And so there's a couple of good ones here. This one is from Greg. Are there other areas that have more common UFO activity besides the California and Florida coasts?

From what I understand, yes, there are. There are certain places around the globe that are hotspots, and I don't have that all mapped out myself, but it's a lot. The scientific Coalition for UAP studies, SCU, they're a pretty credible research organization, and they've done that. I think there's some places in South America and where else? In the Pacific Northwest, possibly, but there are. This is documented, and you could do a Google search and find them interesting.

This is from Lester Dodson. What effects do underwater thermal vents and underwater volcanic activity have on ocean temperatures, ocean currents, and the overall world climate?

That's interesting. That's a good question. I don't think hydrothermal vents are a major factor in changes in the climate, but they're very interesting scientifically because they hold a habitat that is super extreme high temperatures, very toxic with metals and minerals, but organisms have evolved to live and thrive in those environments. And it's really interesting regarding this current topic because of UAP, because it's basically, we already have aliens in our oceans. When you go to those places, some of them don't have any. They're all white because they don't need any colorations. And it's so dark down there. Giant clams, for example, and mussels, as well as other types of tube worms and just really weird, weird sea life. If you go and look at some hydrothermal vent imagery or expeditions that I have friends who've done that.

Wow. How deep are these?

Oh, shoot. Well, the first one that was discovered was off the mid atlantic ridge, I believe, in my buddy Robert Ballard, the discoverer of the Titanic. He was one of the ones who found him. He was working with the French, and I think there might be around 2 miles deep or so. It varies. It varies.

Wow. And then the last question, which actually we had kind of spoken about before, before we started rolling the cameras, but I have a lot of patreons that are, excuse me, patrons that are curious on your thoughts to the UFO whistleblower series that we did. I think it was right about a year ago.

Right, right. That was a really compelling series. So I've been in this UAP topic for a little over about two years, and I initially like Michael Herrera, the marine, where he saw paramilitary forces from some agency. And that whole story, originally, I would have dismissed that as can't be. Our government doesn't do that. But the more I'm learning and that's coming out, and I could talk about some examples, I wouldn't be surprised if there was credibility to that, because, for example, there's a book out there by a guy named Greg Bishop called Project Beta. Have you ever heard of it?

I haven't.

This is a really good book for right now. It's Project Beta. Project Beta. And the subtitle is something like the story of Paul Benowitz and the evolution of the modern UFO myth. And what it's about is a civilian physicist who was on contract to work for the air force, I believe. And ultimately, he was one of these people who was a civilian researcher in the UAP in the New Mexico area, where there was. That's a hotspot. And the air force deliberately deceived him and exploited him and even broke into his house to make him believe that there was going to be an imminent alien invasion. And he basically nearly went crazy. And the air force did that deliberately. What? Yeah. Yes. The book is really good to read, too. You can read it, like, in a day. It's all happened. The main perpetrator in the air force is a guy named Richard Doty. He's quite well known in the UAP circles, and that's what he did. And I can see that happening right now, and we could talk about this later. But you know, this Dod UFO office called arrow. So they recently released a report.

Real quick, what does Arrow stand for?

All domain anomaly resolution office. And their report was looking at the historical kind of story of the us government's UAP involvement. Congress directed them to do this report, and they basically didn't do their job. It was a lot of errors. They missed a lot. And one of the prominent UAP authorities on national security, Chris Mellon, wrote a scathing expose, if you will, on all the errors in the report and how they didn't meet the congressional mandate. And when you read that, and you can tell they're obviously obfuscating, they are deliberately not saying what they know and saying things that are patently untrue in this report that Congress directed. And so Chris wrote a great article in the debrief about it and all the flaws. And when you put that together and look at that, you could just see that is active disinformation. They're not acknowledging what they know, and they're actually putting out false information.

Why are they putting out false information?

So this is really. It makes sense if you worked in the government at a high level, like me. They, the executive branch, the National Security Council, upon direction from the president and the Department of Defense, and the intelligence community, the office of director of National Intelligence, they're the ones who could have the say, should we disclose or not? And the arrow is just doing their bidding, because that executive branch, those bodies, they set the policy of the administration. I saw this in my job under secretary of commerce. The Trump administration wanted to do certain things, and we did those things. We actually did a lot of good. And I could talk about that, that the press never gave us credit for. But that's how it flows, and this administration doesn't want to do that. So arrow is just the mouthpiece. It's the policy at the top level of the executive branch that directs whether they want to disclose or not. Now, it makes a lot of sense because, I mean, UFO people want to see it. But if you were Biden, would you want to tell the american public, hey, I can't keep our airspace safe.

It's being, it's being visited by entities whose intent I don't understand and I can't control it. Same for our water space. Do you think he want to announce that to the american people on the verge of the election and say, I'm not doing my job, I can't keep you all safe? I don't think so.

Probably not. But what is the disinformation piece? Why would they be, why would the Air force be planting disinformation in researchers homes?

Well, that was back then. I'd be hard pressed to see them do that today. But that's it. They went out of control. They were basically not aligned with the constitution, and they did that because now they don't say it in the book. The book just talks about the facts. But it's the same thing again that's happening today. They don't want the public to know that there really is a crash retrieval program and that we are monitoring UAP in our airspace and water space and we can't control their actions and we don't fully understand their intentions. And that's a dangerous thing to leak to the public. And so they are deliberately falsifying it and exploiting people, making them appear as wackos, thus creating a stigma behind the whole scene which has prevented serious scientific study. And that's why I've joined Galileo, Americans for Safe Aerospace and the sole foundation to advance the scientific study of the phenomenon.

Interesting. So that's a. So that the disinformation is just to discredit whoever is.

That's exactly into the subject. That's right. And it's happening overtly today. That office is doing it. And you see it all around the media now. There's just a lot of, there are individuals who I will not name, who are, who I believe are getting paid, but they, every day they get out online and they're well known in this UAP community, and their number one job is just to discredit these. These national authorities, these people like Lou Elizondo, who was with the task force, the UAP task force. I've met and trust and know, and he is 100% who he says he is and what he says he's seen and knows. I have total confidence in people like him. He. He's getting. He's. He's an active target of people discrediting him and others, too.

Interesting, interesting. Is there anybody I should be looking out for?

Gosh, I don't study this like other people do. Some people are. They. Do they really spend a lot of time on this?

Yeah, I'll ask you.

I'm just not going to name names because I don't know. I don't want to do that.

Yeah, I understand. I'll ask you offline. Let's get into the Galileo project. Yeah, that sounds fascinating. How did you get involved in that?

Well, again, I had left the government, and so the background is this. One of my jobs in the navy is I was the superintendent of the US Naval Observatory in Washington, DC. So that has. It's known for two things. It's where the vice president lives. He lives in the house of the former superintendent. So I didn't get that house. When I came in, the vice president was there. But also this unit that has been historically been mapping the stars for the US for the purpose of navigation. Ships of the age of sail. Our original ships, the six frigates, they navigated using celestial navigation, and that's how evolved to modern day star mapping, which is used for satellite navigation. So consider this. If GPS tells you where it is or you are, how does GPS know where it is? The constellation. They reference themselves to the stars in our galaxy that are relatively fixed because they're so far away. So you create something called a celestial reference frame, and that is the coordinate system that satellites navigate off of. Precisely, and then therefore could tell you where you are. So we updated all the star positions.

The universe was expanding, so we'd have to make new catalogs every so often. That's the observatory. Bottom line is that I got to know a lot of astrophysicists and I learned a lot of cosmology, and I realized the universe is so giant, we'd be arrogant to think that we're the only species that's evolved to travel between celestial bodies. And so, you know, we have 100 to 400 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy, and there are over 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe. That's just crazy. So I was open to that. And then when I left the government, I decided, I'll join Galileo, because Galileo, under Avi Loeb at Harvard, he is developing a network of observatories, telescopes, and other sensors to look for UAP in the near earth atmosphere. And so he's published on several books on this topic, and I love the way he thinks. Total scientific approach and being an astronomer and understanding the scales that I just talked about in terms of space and time. 14 billion year old universe. You have to think, okay, in the earth, we have evolved. We're pretty new on the scene. The earth's been around for 4 billion years, and we've only been humans on the scene for not even a million.

And so we occupy the sliver of time and the whole scale of the earth and the universe. And look how fast we've advanced in technology in the even tinier part of the last hundred years. So why not? Why couldn't an advanced technological civilization that evolved to go way past us and then maybe even died off millions of years ago somewhere else? So he's on this search to either find active UAP or the remnants of another technological civilization. When you think about those scales and the fact that, okay, there's life on this earth, so we know that life can evolve on a planet, it's just myopic to think, why wouldn't it happen somewhere else in this giant universe?

Yeah, yeah. You had mentioned just a minute ago that the universe is expanding, and I've been watching things on this, but how do we know it's expanding?

Well, I won't go into the details here, but astronomers can see it in different signatures. I believe Edwin Hubble, I think, was the first astronomer to find evidence of that. And it's based on. Gosh, it's not necessarily the. I think it's the thing they call redshift, where a certain spectrum of electromagnetic energy out in the universe has a feature to it, like a Doppler shift. When you know a train's going by or you're going fast by something and you hear that change in frequency. I believe it's something like that. Don't quote me. I haven't done astronomy for a long time, but astronomers have been able to prove it conclusively.

What do you think it's expanding into?

Right. That's exactly it. Where'd it come from? There's this big bang that happened 14.6 billion years ago. Nobody knows what happened before that or what was.

What was there I mean, what does that mean? Does it mean that?

Is it creating a wall? Yeah. Like, is there an end?

What's on the other side of it?

I don't know exactly. And either, and that, and that's why when you think about that weirdness, then, then you start appreciating that other weirdness could be, too, because again, we've only reached our understanding of modern physics in the last few, last hundred years. What if we evolve and live and don't kill ourselves for another thousand or million years? What is the state of technology going to be like then? And that's why when we talk about where these things coming from, it could be anything. It could be from other dimensions that we just haven't learned the physics about, or again, from another part of the universe that we say, okay, we can't travel that far that fast based on the known laws of physics and the speed of light, but maybe we'll invent that and discover those physics sometime in the future.

Wow. Wow, man, it's fast. There's so much to cover here.

Yeah, exactly.

But let's start, let's start with a little bit of your navy career. So you're an oceanographer in the Navy. What does an oceanographer do? You know, I've seen a lot during my time as a Navy seal and a CIA contractor, and I've learned even more hosting this show. The one thing I can tell you for sure is that it pays to be prepared. Right now, with our national debt surging to unfathomable levels, global tension rising in the corruption in Washington, ask yourself, are you prepared financially? Me? I'm buying gold and silver so I'm not caught off guard by the next recession or global conflict. And I've teamed up with one of the top gold IRA companies, Gold Co. To make that happen. So I want you to go to seanlikesgold.com or call 855936 gold. You'll get a free 2024 wealth protection kit from Gold Co. Plus, you may qualify for up to 10,000 in bonus silver while supplies last. So go to seanlikesgold.com or call 855936 gold and get your bonus silver today. Once again, that's 855936 gold. Or visit seanlikesgold.com. dot performance may vary. Consult with your tax attorney or financial professional before making an investment decision.

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Right. So I joined the navy because I wanted to be an oceanographer. It wasn't because I wanted to join the Navy. My dad had been in. And I respected the service, of course, but my passion is in the ocean, and that's really why we're here, because we'll get into the UAP and the ocean later. But I grew up in southern California. I love to swim and surf, and so I wanted to study the ocean. And so the naval academy had a great majority, and they had a scholarship to this institution called Scripps Institution of oceanography. And I wanted to go there and get it. I got that. And then I started doing that work in the navy. And what it involves is basically knowing everything about the physical ocean and predicting it, waves, currents, how the ocean structure affects acoustic propagation, which is the top consideration in undersea warfare, and finding and killing enemy submarines and vice versa, not being killed by an enemy submarine. So that's what oceanographers do for the most part. I work with your community, Navy special warfare for a time, because a lot of work with the steel delivery vehicles, for example, or anything like a special reconnaissance mission from offshore, that the ton of work they do is dependent upon the ocean.

Wave, heights, currents, temperature. All my SDV buddies would hype out on every mission, and I would never want to do that. My wife was a Navy diver, you know, and it's funny because when I was at the Navy SEAL headquarters, I had a good buddy who was, who had formerly been in the SDV teams, and he knew my wife and they had these mutual conversations together, and whenever we got, had parties or whatnot, because my wife had been a navy diver and Bruce had been an SDV operator, and they would always just talk about hating to be cold now after all those missions. But anyways, yeah. So just helping operators in any field, whether it be surface Navy submarine seals, know the ocean and predict it so they can plan their missions more effectively.

Then you went on, you had. You were a flag officer at the Pentagon.

Yeah.

What were you doing there?

Well, I was the oceanographer of the Navy. That's the top oceanographer and meteorologist and hydrographer, advising the chief of naval operations on everything that my community of officers did for the Navy. So I was in charge of six of our oceanographic ships that are all around the world doing. Collecting ocean data and mapping the seafloor. So this is an interesting thing. You see these pictures of the earth, and sometimes you'll see, like, Google Earth's ocean features, and you think the seafloor is all mapped. And the fact is, it's not. We've not even mapped 25% of the world's seafloor to a modern standard, meaning multi beam sonar and GPS navigation. That's 75% of the earth's seafloor is basically uncharted territory. And it's even crazier for the volume of the ocean. Barely 5% of the ocean volume has ever been explored with a remotely operated vehicle.

5%.

5%, yeah. So, like, that much volume, we don't even know what's out there. So I did that for the Navy in the Pentagon. And after I left, I did that at this us agency, which was a us top ocean agency, the National oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. And then since I've left, I'm just consulting for some companies that do that kind of work. Ocean tech, weather tech, some other things. Yeah. So there's another thing about this underwater feature off Socal that I want to dive an rov on. So what happened is I wanted to get a better look at it, and I happen to know this very famous explorer. His name is Victor Vescovo. And here's the kind of guy Victor is. Private equity investor. He was an intelligence officer in the naval reserve, and anybody made a lot of money on his. In his day job. And he has done the explorers club grand slam, which involves hiking all the seven peaks, including Everest, and skiing to the North Pole and the South Pole. And Victor, for him, it wasn't enough. So he decided he learned that all the deep ocean trenches in the world not all of them have been explored.

So he hired a company, bought a ship, built his own submersible, and financed, for the sum of about $50 million, an expedition to dive in all the five deep trenches. It's called the five Deeps. None of them. That's never happened. So he built a submersible that could go all the way down to the Marianas trench, the deepest part of the ocean. They call it Challenger Deep. And he's done that 14 times, which is incredible. That only been dove twice before. Deep, is it 35,000ft, 10,000 plus meters? Yeah. This is crazy. And so he's done some exploring. What happened is, I signed an agreement with him when I was at NOAA, and he agreed to put our scientists on his ship and give us the data he collected, because he also had a really great sonar, a multi beam bathymetry sonar. And so we had that agreement. Well, one time after I left the government, I learned that he was going to do a test cruise, if you will, a shakedown for a his ship, because it got a new sonar on it, the state of the art. And when I learned he was doing it, and I knew about this one feature that I couldn't explain on the seafloor, I wrote Victor and I said, hey, this cruise you're going to go test your sonar at, I have an idea for you.

And it's going to be an expedition like no other. And I told him about what I was doing with UAP and my hypothesis on this feature maybe being the result of some interaction with the USO and the seabed. And I said, I have some other coordinates, too. And we gave him some coordinates of areas like where we knew the Nimitz had its encounter and the Omaha had its encounter, just areas where UAP have been observed and USO's and that maybe there's something on the seabed there. And I didn't think he'd write me back. I was curious. I thought he might think I was off my rocker. Well, he wrote me back and just said, send me the coordinates. And he went and surveyed all around those areas. Unfortunately, his submersible wasn't ready and he couldn't get his eyes on that target and see it optically. But he got some high resolution bathymetry with a sonar, and that's what I'm working off of.

Well, how long ago did this happen?

Oh, it might have been two years. And that's what's interesting about my point, too, is this, that here is a guy like him, and I told him about possible UAp activity in the ocean. And he didn't blink. He just said, send me the coordinates. I have one other story, and it relates to this, the ocean, and I guess maybe the credibility of the topic. So I mentioned that I work with the national academies and the national academies of science, engineering and medicine, and they have this body on it called the Ocean Studies Board. And this is the hall of fame or the all stars of ocean science in our nation. These are just top tier ocean scientists who get together and we decide upon topics of interest on the ocean, and we agree on studies and help conduct them. And, you know, things like the illegal fishing issue. I talked about ocean, plastics, you name it. Well, I went to them and I pulled together all my info about what Congress had done, the DoD is doing, and NASA has a study team. And I recommended that we get together and do a survey of all the government data sets that ocean datasets, and just look for anomalous activity and see if there are areas where we know it occurs.

And they just haven't been looked at, because remember I mentioned it's not necessarily the topic or target of most ocean research expeditions, so maybe it's in the data, and no one even thought about calling it out. Well, they. I wasn't sure what they'd say, but. And they did not laugh me out of the room. They actually said, wow, that's interesting, Tim. Maybe you should look into it, but you probably want to include all the classified data sources, too. And. And we don't do that. The group that does that, the academies, is the naval studies board. Ah, okay. So that was great, because that was familiar territory for me, because I briefed the naval studies board multiple times on different issues, the naval studies board. And so I went to the chair, who happens to be retired four star Admiral Gary Ruff, head former chief of naval operations when I was in the Pentagon as a one star, and my boss, so I knew him, or, pardon me, I was a captain at the time. And so he's my boss's boss, and I've briefed him before. So I go to him and I say, we have a Zoom meeting.

I tell him about all this UAP research that's going on by credible institutions and the government. And he thought, Tim, that is something we should be doing. And he said, not only because if we have things in our water space that we don't know about, we should. And he said, but also, this is going to help us know a lot more about the ocean. And I remember I talked about knowing more about the ocean is going to help us with China. And he said, we need to know more about the ocean for that very reason, to be better than them. So two purposes, he thought we could achieve that. So where I am with this is that now I have to. They need government funding. They need a government sponsor to say, hey, naval Studies Board, do this for us and, and we'll pay you this much. And so I, I now have to go back to the government. Unfortunately, either the office of Naval Intelligence, my former command, the Naval oceanographic office that I was in charge of, and, or, or NOAA and see if they'll want to do a study. I asked NOAA and they already said no.

We have too many other things on our plate. Not interested. I don't see the DOD or office of Neural Intelligence doing the same again because of the non disclosure policy currently that exists in the executive branch. But I'm still going to ask and still going to try.

Well, I can't wait to see what you come up with.

We'll see what happens.

What was it that, I mean, how did you get involved in this whole UFO Uap thing?

Right, right. So this, I've said this story before, but it's worth going out again. First off, as I mentioned, I was a superintendent of the Naval Observatory, so I understood how big the universe was and I was open minded to that. There could be other life outside of the earth. And then as a one star, I had actually two jobs. I had a Pentagon job and then I also was an operational commander. So there's a one star job in Stennis Bay center in Mississippi called the commander of the Navy Meteorology and Oceanography Command. And that's all the folks that did what I did. So there's enlisted aerographers that do weather forecasting on aircraft carriers and shore stations. And there's other folks that, again, advise for anti submarine warfare. And so all these about 3000 people, civilians and uniformed, do things like ocean mapping, weather forecasting, ocean forecasting, and I was in charge of them all. And so I'm, I'm in my office that one day. So I was split in time between the Pentagon and DC and this office in Stennis. And one day I get this email on the Navy secret network, CyPRNet, and it's from my, my boss's operation officer.

I was reporting to a four star admiral, US Fleet Forces command. His operations officer was a two star. And the email was sent to all the subordinate commanders. This is at least 20 flags and ses. All the deputies are copied on it. And the title of it is, urgent safety of flight issue, all caps. And the body of the email said, if any of you know what these are, tell me ASAP. We are having numerous near mid air collisions, and if we don't stop it, we're going to have to cancel the exercise. And attached to the video was the now famous leaked go fast video. You know it, don't you?

Yes.

Yeah. Okay. So UAP F 18 pilots captured video of this Uap zorchin over the water. There's no flight control surfaces or propulsion means that are visible. It's just a little round sphere. And then the pilots are all going crazy. And they other videos have mentioned how there were multiple ones out there. And I knew right then and there that was not ours. We don't have technology that like that. I was read into a lot of saps, the best of my knowledge, and we would never do that in a training range, especially aircraft carrier workups are so compressed, they have to do all these things. The pilots got to get certified. They got to land so many times on the carrier, they got to do all these things and certify to go deploy. So throwing out advanced technology in a training range during a pre deployment workup just doesn't happen. I mean, people will get fired. So. And, of course, we have testing ranges to do that, of course. So I knew that was Nars. I also had been reading all the threat, our adversaries capabilities. I knew nobody else had that. And so I knew right there that was something not ours, not human, off world, whatever.

It just wasn't ours. And I, my deputy and I were both open minded. He was an SES, and I pulled him over, and we've talked about it for a while, and we're just pretty much amazed. But the next day, that email was wiped from my computer and my deputies and everybody else. So, okay, it's gone. Wow. I wanted to save that thing. It was interesting. And come to find out, I go to monthly meetings at my boss's headquarters in Norfolk, and we always talk about staying up with the training cycle, and safety issues always came up. And this was a big safety issue. The OPS officer said so and so, and my job as the chief meteorologist in the Navy, another one of my hats, was safety of flight. And so we get into the next monthly meeting, and no one brings this stuff up. No one's talking about it, about a safety issue, almost canceling this major training event. And then you come to find out one of the pilots flying during those missions that that video was from the USS Theodore Roosevelt's air wing. It was Ryan Graves. He's pretty well known now as somebody who's come out, and he's founded an organization I'm on the board of called the Americans for Safe Aerospace.

And he's advocating for, with draft legislation out there to instill reporting protocols for pilots and the FAA, commercial pilots and others by the FAA, because currently there and pretty much the Navy, if you come out and say, hey, I saw these things, it could be a career killer.

Yeah.

And I'll just one more point about that. So I couldn't say anything at the time. And by the way, so it was white from my computer. I had been read into saps, and I knew, oh, okay, this probably was connected to a SAP that the OpS officer did not know and the intelligence officer who, one of the intelligence officers probably found that email and said, oh, shoot. And contacted whoever owned it, which is probably Dia, and they did their forensics and took everything off the system. Whoever it was, I don't know. But I had been read into enough saps to know, oh, that probably happened, and that's why I didn't have it, and that's why no one's talking about it. But it bothered me, Sean, because, and now that I talk with Ryan, I realize, holy cow, lots of these things were in the airspace. They were interfering with operations, and they were a safety issue.

How many?

I don't know how many. But at one of the gimbal recording was another one from that period. And you can hear one of the pilots say, there's a whole fleet of them. And so I don't know. But there were a lot. And the pilots were seeing them all the time. And what gets me is that commanders like me once, admirals who are in charge of the well being, responsible for the well being and safety of their people and their forces, they were basically forced to turn a blind eye because of some over classification issue and allow that make the pilots mitigate the safety threat on their own, which was feckless to me. We should be stepping up as flags, as leaders and saying, all right, you know, let's address this here. Let's talk about it at the four star meeting and make sure we don't have to cancel exercise or see pilots fall out of the sky because of interactions with these things or avoidance maneuvers again. So there's. That's why I've come out and been an advocate for what Ryan's doing.

Nobody brought up that email.

No. No. Well, and that's the thing is that we all knew, okay, someone just touched a SAP and they got rid of it and we can't talk about it. Think about that. So we had, we could have had planes falling out of sky, but we're not going to talk about it because of this over classification. And there's a lot of unethical aspects, I think, of this whole UAP system that exists right now in the government.

Man, that's, I mean, that's terrifying that somebody. I mean, how high up does this go, do you think? These people pulling the strings saying, get rid of that, that emailed out?

Well, I don't know.

Send out this disinformation?

Yeah, yeah. I don't know how high it is, but obviously, Arrow's last report, the alderman anomaly resolution office in the Pentagon was, was so deliberately false that obviously it's. And they had to approve it. So it's got to be pretty high at the SEC def. And I would say, certainly the NSC level, probably. Probably Odni, Avril Haynes, I'm sure, had some decision to say, nope, we're not going to talk about this. And same with Jake Sullivan, the NSC, I'm sure, because there's so many people clamoring it for right now, and it's getting so much media visibility. So it had to be up at that level. I don't know about the president, but probably the NSC director, man.

Well, so what is an oceanographer and all the different things that you've done for the government, for the Navy, for the country? Why are you focusing on underwater stuff?

Yeah, well, first off, we know we see them in the water, too. The last example that I saw was from the USS Omaha off southern California, a well known video that Jeremy Corbel, one of the UAP media types, has gotten out there. And so. And there's other examples, too, classified examples I can't talk about. But confirmation that we see these things underwater, and I can tell a story about a submarine officer who came out to me, too, but so we know they're in the water. And that's my thing. I've done a whole career of ocean science, and so it's what I know, and it's who my network is. So. And now I'm on two national bodies that advise on ocean research, and I'm trying to get UAP studies into their research priorities. One reports to the White House and one's within the national academies. That's why it's what I know. And I know they're in the water and we're never going to have a full understanding of what the nature of UAP unless we look in the water, too. So that's what I can bring to bear on this whole discussion.

How many encounters have we had of UAP UFO activity in the water?

So I don't know. I mean, there's a couple books out on it, and most of all of them, I think, really lack data. They're mostly anecdotal, with interviews of people. One of them is by a guy named Preston Dennett. And it's interesting because that he looks at the hotspot phenomenon off southern California. And then there's an older book by a guy named Carl Feint who something called, I think was called UFO's in the water. And he also just compiled a wide range of cases, just interviewed people. And so there's a lot. There's several hundred in those. And then Richard Dolan, who's a pretty well known UAP researcher, he is. He's finished up. He's finishing up a book and I've seen the draft, and he's got about 600 cases where he's looked at all the books and sources and that go back from the 17 hundreds. So, you know, I think. I think there was a. Yeah, he. There's some interesting cases in that book, but ultimately it's a lot less than we've seen in the atmosphere because the ocean's not as transparent. But it's. But it's worth looking at again because there may be more going on than we've just then that's.

That amount we've. We know to have existed.

Let's talk about the submariner.

Yeah, this is a good story. So as I've come out, if you will, or I've been speaking out, and I am what I am. I have the scientific background as an authority on these topics of ocean science and exploration. People have looked to me and said, I bet if I tell him, he seems like a straight shooter, an incredible guy, I guess. So a submariner came to me and virtually. And he just said, hey, I was on a sub in the eighties. I could talk to you about what I saw. Okay. Yeah, let's have a call. I got on a call with him. He was a nuclear submarine officer. Now he's an engineer. And I think for an energy company. And this guy is like most nuclear submariners I know, he is just the facts. He is, by the book, very much that way in his personality. And the story he shared me was this. He's in the North Atlantic in the eighties. Cold weather is hot and their subs operating, I wouldn't say super deep, but it was very high sea state because of a storm, 40 foot waves, so they were below that, but even there they were kind of rocking.

Subs can feel that wave action. And so because it was so rough, it creates a lot of ambient noise. And in those conditions, it is really hard to passively detect another submarine. So they felt pretty secure. They weren't going to be detected by a russian sub, and they probably weren't going to hear one either. So he's on the watch, and all of a sudden they get a passive hit, a contact that's moving off the starboard at some range. I don't know the range. Then it paused and then started closing on them rapidly. And they call that constant bearing decreasing range, and you don't want that when you're a ship driver or a sub driver. I drove ships, aircraft carriers. I was a deck watch officer. You know, that's going to be a collision. And they had, that was every feature that a russian torpedo would have in terms of the constant bearing decreasing range at a very rapid rate. And they were so convinced, he called the captain the bridge. They set general quarters and they dived and it kept on coming, and it kept on coming, and they were hoping to get below some acoustic lens or whatever that wouldn't be able to find them and lose track.

And it just kept coming. And so they went as deep as crush depth, just above it. Crush depth is that depth. That submarine will implode. And that's a dangerous place to be on an older sub like this. But they, they were convinced this was a russian sub coming at them and then at some range, close, I don't know what. It paused and then slowly took station in their, on their stern behind them and trailed them for a while. So they're getting this passive acoustic hit of something doing this, and then after minutes, maybe it just rapidly departed the scene and they're there, and they couldn't. There was no explanation. The Russians didn't have technology like that. We didn't have technology like that. And again, to this day, he doesn't know. I want to get that data. The data is collected and archived at Johns Hopkins University, and I'm in the process of reinstating my clearance, and I want to look into that.

Wow.

Yeah.

Are there a lot of examples like this?

So I don't know. But I have talked to one other submariner, nuclear submarine officer, who says that he's not seen that before. But when you go around the Navy and talk to other sonar techs, they say they do see these quite often.

Really?

Yeah. And this guy's very credible. He's actually a reservist, and he's. His day job is he works in.

The Pentagon, all civilian, attracted to nuclear subs.

I don't know. But that. This is an interesting thing, and I wrote a paper about this called beneath the surface. We may learn more about UAP if we look in the ocean. It's on the soul foundation's website. And I write about that because we know, and there's a book on this, that uaps seem to be attracted or active around nuclear sites. Is it because that submarine had a nuclear reactor and had nuclear armed missiles? And what about the Nimitz and the Theodore Roosevelt aircraft carriers, because they're nuclear powered? Maybe. Is that attracting them? I don't know, but it's a very interesting correlation.

What are some of the things that you're finding under the ocean, personally?

Oh, well, so this is neat. The ocean. So interesting to me still. And so when I. For example, when I was with the National oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, we pronounced it NOAA, that we had a program called the Ocean Exploration and Research Program with a dedicated ship, and it had a deep diving rov, remotely operated vehicle with high resolution cameras and other instruments. And we purposely go look for things. And every year, we found new species, whether it be deep coral or new types of fish. And get this, this is how much we don't know about the ocean. In 2020, I think it was, we had a fisheries biologist go down to Antarctica and discover a new species of killer whale that had never been seen. So this isn't like just some small, weird microbe. There's all sorts of things we've never seen before.

A new species of killer whales.

Yeah. Yep.

One man.

Yeah.

Have you been to Antarctica?

I've not. I've been in the Arctic. I've been in the Arctic on a sub. So I've surfaced. I've. I've been up there on the ice camp that they have up there.

What's. What's up there?

The Arctic?

Yeah.

Well, okay. I was there because the US Navy, every two years, hosts, conducts an exercise called ice x, and it's to basically train, study some of the dynamics of ice and as well as the tactics of operating under the ice, which we need to refine when you look at what Russia is doing. And so. But there's a lot of things to discover, too, again, on the seabed, new geologic features. There are, again, all sorts of sea life under the ice, too. And, yeah, I mean, there's, we could talk about a million things about what's in the ocean.

Let's go.

Well, shoot.

Let's do it.

Here's what I, here's something I was pretty proud of. So, because we don't know so much about the ocean, and here I was in the Trump administration, and I'm with an environmental science agency. So it was kind of a tricky place to be. He was not keen on major funding to science agencies. The White House proposed a lot of cuts to our budget. Congress always put the money back in, but we were looking for good ways to show leadership and advance the ocean that would appeal to his administration. And so one of the things I led was a national strategy to map and explore the ocean, or the us ocean, which is our exclusive economic zone. And the White House approved it. And we put together a plan, a team, and it's still being executed. And so we didn't even know. Only about 40% of the seafloor in the US had been mapped, and now we're getting near 50. And why that matters is, first of all, submarine navigation, or navigation period, ships, submarines, too. We had two submarines. One was the USS San Francisco in the early two thousands, and then later the USS Connecticut in the early 2020s.

Both collide with undersea mountains. Seamounts sustain major damage, hundreds of millions of dollars. In the San Francisco's case, one sailor was killed because just 35 knots, boom, he sustained a head injury. And that's how much we don't know about the ocean and why we need to do it. And I even wrote an article about the fact that China is mapping and exploring the ocean heavily in the western Pacific. And if they know the ocean better than us, we're going to have a hard time with them. You know, think about this. High ground in ground warfare provides a tactical advantage, right? And the ocean has a high ground, too. If you know the acoustic properties and the seabed, well, then you can use that to your advantage in not being predicting the acoustic and optical paths of sensors and avoid counter detection and then maximize your ability to detect the adversary. So you need to know the ocean just like you need to know terrain in your old line of work. And so. And that's it. So getting a better feel for what we know. It matters for national security, and it matters for a lot of cool science.

We have some of the best managed fisheries in the world in the US, especially in Alaska, and we need to understand the nature of the fish, where they are. They're moving into certain places, we need to understand what their habitat is like so we know where they'll be and we don't overfish them. There's all sorts of reasons to map and explore the ocean, and those are just a few.

Yeah, yeah. What are some of the things you've encountered?

So there's some other interesting ocean things I've seen and done. And a lot of this is credit. I give credit to my wife, Karen, who was a navy diver doing salvage. She was a diving officer. She's recovered aircraft from the floor of the Mediterranean, the sea floor, and done some hard stuff. So she's my inspiration, and she's the reason, actually, I even speak up about UAP. I had no idea. I had no intention of doing it. And she just said, tim, you've done some things. You have a voice. Why don't you do it? Why don't you go contact Avi? I give her that credit, but also because she's a. Was a former Navy diver, and we met getting our graduate degrees in oceanography at Scripps. That's just what we do now as a family. We do ocean stuff. And so I joined her. We did a week long cage diving expedition off Guadalupe island. Great white sharks.

Oh, man. How was that?

It was amazing. And so. This is amazing. Yeah, well, no, there's so much to say about it. The neat thing that I was proud of is it wasn't just some adventure tourism deal. I actually found the people who do it through my old agency. Noah, one of the women who worked at our fisheries science center in San Diego, she had a nonprofit job doing marine scientific research, investigating specifically great white sharks. And this was part of a 20 year time series where the scientists had been photo identifying individuals in the population by the markings on the side of their body because they're kind of dark on the top, blue, and then they're light white on the bottom, and it's like a zebra. It's unique to each individual, the pattern. And so they had been photo id ing all the individuals. And it's a really important scientific endeavor because the apex predators in a population, if you can understand their health, certainly at an individual level, you'll have a very good indicator of what the entire ecosystem is doing. And so we went down there, we took our GoPro data, and they downloaded it and used our data.

But it was also just extraordinary. These animals are as big as busses, of course. They're like weapons with their teeth, and they're interesting. I remember we had a day travel from Ensenada, and we had three days of diving and a day travel back, and I remember thinking on the way out, ah, you know, we're gonna have three days in the water. I'm probably gonna get bored after the first day. I'm gonna see the same stuff all the time. No way. Now I know, because these animals are coming right up to you, and they're just doing what they do in the wild, and they're. They're majestic and beautiful. But now I know why bungee jumpers do what they do, because I just wanted to get in the water, like, constantly and see those things. They're never disappointing, man. Yeah, that was a good show.

Was that just. Was that pure pleasure, or were you down there to study?

I was there again for that nonprofit to help with their scientific study of the animals.

Yeah.

So that was. I had to pay for it, but it was a contribution to that science institute. Cool. Marine conservation science International is what they're called. MCSI. Interestingly, and I didn't know this back then. I wish I did, but that's Guadalupe island off Baja California, is a hotspot for UAP.

Is it really?

All the fishermen around there, they see them all the time. Yeah, you google that and it'll be all. You get tons of hits. So that was one. And then, thankfully, Karen and I, now we just, again, we take our girls. They're all scuba certified. We've been free diving with bull sharks off Florida. We've been scuba diving with caribbean reef sharks off in the Bahamas. And then just recently, Galapagos island and Hammerheads.

Very cool.

Just great. Yeah. So this is, our next trip is to Fiji and the Republic of Palau to do some diving. And we were in Palau last and saw some really magnificent black tip reef sharks up close and personal. So that's what we do for fun.

What are some of the things you've encountered as an oceanographer that you know?

So, here you go. When I was up at night. Oh, keep me up at night. The nature of the ocean doesn't keep me up at night. Our adversaries who want to exploit the ocean to our. To harm us or our allies, for example, chinese illegal fishing is destroying economies all around the world, especially in Pacific island countries. I wouldn't say it keeps me up at night, but it is a big issue that even our DoD, the Navy, is. Is working to combat with the coast Guard. There's a funny thing about that question, Sean. So I served in the same administration as Secretary Mattis when he was the secretary of defense. Great guy. That was one of the questions he answered early on as his tenure as SecDef, someone said, what keeps you up at night? And he said, nothing keeps me up at night. I keep other people up at night. He's great. He's the best. Yeah. I got to serve with some fine people in the Trump administration. Secretary Mattis was one, General John Kelly, the first chief of staff. He was homeland security chief initially. Great person there. He was a mentor for a month long course I took at the National Defense University.

Great person. And there are others, too.

Well, what are you finding under there? UAP wise?

UAP wise?

Yeah.

In the ocean.

Yeah.

So again, I only know the examples I've just shared, and then there's some classified examples. I can't talk about that, but I know of. And basically, like you see in the, in the atmosphere, you see large craft, different shapes. You see, I mean, the reports have been different lighting configurations sometimes. And so, yes, it seems to be, too. The variety of the nature. It seems to be as diverse as it is up in the atmosphere. Yeah. I mean, that's what seems to come through. And again, if we've seen so much through the published literature and then the documented accounts recently, then there may be not just maybe the tip of the iceberg.

What do you think these are?

Yeah. Right.

Are they man made?

I don't know. No. Well, first off, no, I don't think. I don't know. That's why we need to study it. These organizations I'm with, supporting their research. But as this topic gets explored more and more, and I engage with people that are, that have been read in or have somehow touched the programs, we have a very active discussion going on daily about this very question, what are they? And, I mean, there's some possibilities they could be from an extraterrestrial source. Again, we don't know the physics on how that could be. Some people have speculated an interdimensional origin, which I don't understand either. But again, since we really don't know all there is about physics, possibly there's something there. And then, and then there's a really interesting theory, and I'll encourage your listeners to check it out. There's an article in the debrief from early this year, 2024, by a guy named Bernardo Castrup. And he. It's a, it's a really well written essay where he speculates that, well, all right, what's the most likely source? Well, if intergalactic travel is not possible, then it could be that these things originated before we evolved, before life as we know it evolved.

So they think there's a period around 750 million years ago where due to this recycling of the continents, if you will, that there's no fossil evidence for. So there's a period a billion years ago or more that we just don't have any fossil evidence of. And he conjectures that possibly an advanced technology civilization evolved. And that's not a stretch when you think we're an advanced technology civilization, I think kind of, and we've evolved, we're here now. So if, you know, we can do that, then go back even a billion years and perhaps that could have happened. And when they saw things getting dicey, because there's so many cataclysms that have happened, you look at the dinosaurs and the asteroid that wiped off a large portion of the earth. There have been other extinction events and then less cataclysmic, but even severe, like about 12,000 years ago, this climatic period called the younger Dryas, where the earth's temperature dropped a lot. And you can see evidence of that in geology. That was an event where a large part of the earth's life was exterminated. The earth's pretty hostile. You look at the volcanoes in Iceland, you look at asteroid impacts of the past, and maybe this advanced technology civilization said, you know, we're out of here.

We're going to go create a habitat down deep, or maybe on Mars or in the moon and just get somewhere more stable. And maybe they've just been able to live and we've not found evidence of it yet, or that these things are evidence of that.

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Yeah, that's how I see it. The possibilities. Maybe there are more I haven't thought of them.

So I'd like to dissect kind of each one of those with the ancient civilization stuff. I mean, what does that at the end of this? I want to ask where you're leaning towards. I mean, what is that? If there's a civilization in the earth, in the ocean, towards the earth's the center? I mean, what does that even look like?

Well, we've mapped the surface of the seabed, again, varying completely. So we don't even know there are parts of the, is there underwater structures we don't really know, and, or are they deep below the geology as we know it? Again, we don't know. So that, but it's not a stretch to think it's possible based on the length this planet's been in existence. And what's unfortunate about this whole discussion we talked about a little earlier is so stigmatized that few people want to be open minded and talk like we are right now of entertaining the possibility of an advanced technology civilization from either of those three origins. It's just not taken seriously. Thank you for having me on. Because it is about time we do it, because we do see evidence of them all the time in the ocean and, of course, in the atmosphere.

And you know of a canadian USL encounter.

Oh, yeah, this is one of the earlier ones. It's in the sixties, I think, early sixties. And there's a great book about it called sweep clear five, and it refers to the name of this mine warfare exercise. The subtitle is NATO's underwater UFO encounter. And it's a very interesting book because it's written by a researcher who interviewed these canadian divers. Now, what happened is, first off is there was a major UFO event in Canada, a place called Shag Harbor, Nova Scotia, in, gosh, I think the late sixties. I don't remember the date. And there's. That's all over the web. But before that, there was another encounter where UFO's were seen to go into the water. And they. It happened that. I think it coincided with a NATO exercise, and the ships all got vectored to go look for these things. And canadian divers were interviewed and claimed to have seen these two underwater disks and actual occupants outside the craft trying to repair it. So aliens, and they even. They even said they captured video, but they don't know where the tapes are. Anyways, there's this book, sweep clear five is all about it. It's about the investigation into that.

And that's the first well documented USO case that I know about.

Wow. Was there any description on what the.

Beings there was, and I think they were humanoid. I don't remember the details. They weren't human for sure, but they were human. Like.

Did they have equipment on?

I don't know. It didn't seem like they did. But maybe it was so technical that it didn't appear to be like equipment. I don't know, man.

So, I mean, what do you think? If we're on this, we're on this. We're going through three discussions, and if it was an advanced civilization that's living under the surface of the earth, whether it's in the ocean or somewhere else, I mean, how long? I mean.

Well, here.

So many questions.

I know. I don't know. But I do know this, and this is why I like the Galileo project. Avi Loeb articulates this so well. Modern society doesn't appreciate how new to the scene we are in terms of everything, our behavior and how we treat each other and technology. And so you have to think it's just so possible that either in this large universe or in a part of the universe we don't even know about, like I said, another dimension that some advance or several. And actually, that's the thing, Sean, is that from what I gather of all these eyewitness accounts that are out there and knowledge from credible sources that we're in, that know people in these programs, the UAP programs, crash retrieval programs, that there are different types. And I mean, in fact, what's very interesting, too, just today, again, I mentioned Chris Mellon. He was a former assistant Dazdy, deputy assistant secretary of defense for intelligence. So he was up there and he knows what he's talking about. And he's been in this field for some time. He, he. On his substat page account, whatever you call it, today, April 23, he published an article, and he had a screenshot of a signal discussion with someone who had known people in that crash retrieval program.

And he said that he was very credible, didn't want to let his name out. But he, the person acknowledged that there was an active crash retrieval program and that there was an air force gatekeeper at the SES level for it. And so there was this discussion that he published today, and he wrote a nice article about it, basically. And what's so good about Chris? He doesn't say what he doesn't know. He says what he knows, he doesn't speculate, and he doesn't reveal sources that don't want to be revealed. And so he said, here's the discussion we had. This person was a senior in the government, and I'm not going to reveal his name, but he said he was aware of these programs, wasn't read into him, but was aware and knew people who were. And so he's just putting that out there again, doing it because there's such an active disinformation campaign that that office arrow is a part of to discredit anybody who brings forth this information. And again, that the highest level, the NSC, obviously, the ODNI, they don't want this information out. Now, it's worth talking about that for a little bit.

Why am I coming out now with the government is doing the best thing and doesn't want the information out? I think they're wrong on this case, and so do my colleagues like Chris and Lou Elizondo, that at some level we should, yes, not let advanced technology come out to the public because we don't want our adversaries getting the upper hand. Of course not. But the knowledge that we're being visited and can't secure our own water, space, and airspace and that this could be something more of a global security nature, and it demands thoughtful public policy, and the public should have a part of that. That fact that we're being visited and it's something that every nation is dealing with, that's something I think just does not benefit us by trying to cover up. And in my personal opinion, the arrow report was so inartful and flawed and full of errors that it makes me wonder, are we that clumsy and inefficient and ineffective in other counterintelligence endeavors? I sure hope not. I hope we're not failing that badly when we're trying to perform the same kind of activity regarding chinese and russian intelligence services.

How many, I mean, are all the. Are there a lot of countries that are digging into this or. Yeah, are we?

There are. Now. I don't know of all of them, but I've had, for example, I was just contacted by an italian researcher who has, like me, decided to focus on the underwater UAP. And he's been doing it for 20 years, perhaps, and was a colleague of this guy, Carl Feint, who wrote that original book, Uop bows and the water. And so there's that. This soul foundation group has just brought on a european on their board. His name is Jonathan Berta, and he's neat because he's a technology guy. He's got his own company. And here's how his company got started. I think they do aerial drones, and I think it was in France that they were seeing all these Uaps around their nuclear sites, and they contracted his company to fly drones to observe them. And that's how he kind of launched his company. And he's doing quite well, but he's one of these open minded people. And so he brings in an international perspective to the Soul foundation, in addition to Peter Scayfish, who's the other lead, and he's got a humanities background, I think it's a socio cultural anthropology. And then you have Gary Nolan, who's got a material science and biomedical expertise, and he brings that hard science to the Sowell foundation.

Interesting, interesting. Back to. Let's get back to the underwater stuff. I just. I want to know every. I want to. What else are you seeing? I mean, with your current research, what are you currently working on under there?

Well, I'm not an active investigator. I don't have a ship. I don't have the money to fund an expedition. Now, there's a couple things that I have been involved with. For example, the Galileo project. And this isn't too out there, but it's part of the whole phenomena, if you will, and field that is worth pursuing. So Galileo is looking to discover remnants of ancient civilizations, extraterrestrial technology, civilizations and or active ones that are in our world observing us.

So he's setting up this strictly outside of Earth?

Well, kind of. So he's got telescopes that are looking at the near earth atmosphere. And so wherever they come from, so it doesn't matter where their origin. He just wants to get scientifically study them better. But here's something cool. So he studied the very first known interstellar object to impact the planet. So it was in a catalog of, I think, asteroids or objects like that that I forgot who maintained it. But basically, he got some data, looked at it. It had been gathered. I think it was collected on what appeared to be a meteorite impact. The earth over Papa, the ocean of Papua New guinea, the Bismarck Sea. And so he had data on this. And when he looked hard at the data, he realized that this thing impact, its impact was not like others. We know from space force data that it's got an extra galactic. No, pardon me, it's outside the solar system. It's an interstellar origin based on its trajectory. So if you're an astronomer and an astrophysicist, you can do the math and determine that based on how a meteorite comes in. So we know this thing is interstellar in origin one.

And then he looked at how it impacted, and you can again do the math through the energetics and everything, that it had a much harder material strength, so it disintegrated a lot later than others based on its speed and all these things. So it was made of something harder, not the normal iron type of composite or whatever that the normal meteorites are made of. So it impacted from outside the solar system and it burned up a lot slower. It was made of something super hard. So what he did is he launched an expedition, got it funded, and he went and recovered fragments of that meteorite. They hit the ocean and then settled in the sea. And what happens when a murat does that? It burns up and it creates these sort of little drop metallic droplets that just sort of fall into the sky. Heavier ones fall first and the other ones sort of just push along the trajectory and fall later. And so he went and mapped it all out. I gave him ocean data and atmospheric data so he could do a profile and figure out how far the stuff drifted in the air and then drifted in the water based on currents.

And he found him. Interestingly, I was able to connect him with the group who had done that before to go search for meteorite fragments in the ocean. We had done this, and NOAA had done this with NASA in a thing called the National Marine Sanctuary off the Olympic coast. And we basically built a magnetic sled with some magnets on it and towed along the water to pick up all the metallic particles, and then had to take basically a fine brush and get them all off, separate them from the mud and then study them. So Avi did that with his team, and I didn't go out with him, and. But he was able to find material that was not of earthly origin. So his next expedition, which he hopes to lead in April 2025, he found the fine stuff. He thinks, why? You know, it could be, it could be technology, right? And so maybe some of the bigger things that didn't burn up are out there too. So he wouldn't know it because he had a sled that was designed only for fine particles. But his next expedition, he's going to take an Rov with a camera and he's going to go along the seafloor and look for stuff.

And he kind of jokes in a lot of his writings that maybe it'll actually have a keyboard on it and maybe there's going to be a button to push. And he always asks people, if you found something from an extraterrestrial visitor and a gadget, like giving a caveman an iPhone, would you push a button on it? And some people say, no, I wouldn't push the button, no way. And he says, I'm gonna push the button.

Wow. Wow. I can't wait to hear what that develops into.

Yeah.

So back to the three things we're talking about, ancient civilizations you had mentioned under the ocean and perhaps in the moon.

Well, again, this is just speculating of the what is possible. And that's what Bernardo's article was titled, something about what is the most likely scenario here on the origins of UAp. And you know, those are, those are, those are three. They could have originated either from our solar system or, I mean, again, we think other planets are inhabitable, but that's for life as we know it. Certainly there could be other life forms. And I told you about these extreme, they call them extremophiles, organisms on these hydrothermal vents in the ocean, super deep high pressure. And, and they're weird and they're alien looking and they've evolved to withstand the pressure and the temperature, very high temperature, hundreds degrees, and in toxic environments. So who's to say that life hasn't evolved? I mean, not our form of life, but somewhere else, either on planet here in our solar system or elsewhere.

Well, what is the, what are the theories with the moon?

Well, I don't really, there's, there's some chatter out there about potentially bases on the moon, like potentially undersea alien bases. I, I have no data on any of that. So I don't know. I'd love to, I'd love to talk to astronauts who've been there or. But I don't know. But it's worth looking into. I know we're going to go back to the moon with Artemis. I would like to see NASA be more transparent with what maybe it's found an example here. So when Congress directed the DOD to start looking at UAP, they established the arrow NASA. And this is interesting to me with Bill Nelson, former senator, now the administrator, they decided to establish a UAP study team. And what they were doing, obviously, is Congress was interested and they were NASA. If Congress is interested in UFO's and NASA's not doing anything, this is how you think when you're in charge of an agency, you better start doing something or else they're going to tell you how to do it. And so Bill Nelson decided to stand up a study team. And when they had a press release of their study, and it was, it was, there was nothing there there.

They talked about UAP that need and that they need to be studied, but they didn't share one, one bit of data or one example. All they did was talk about it. It was, it was embarrassing in my opinion. But. But that's kind of what's happening now is the government's trying, or the government is coming out and saying things, but they're really not being forthright. Now. One more thing. But there is some sign of interesting activity. Believe it or not, I was just contacted by the National Science foundation and they are going to host a UAP communications workshop. No kidding. And they're inviting really credible people. They invited me. They invited, not that I'm super credible, but I'm trying. And other people like, and I actually connected them to these professors in religious studies and the humanities that I know. Diana Pesolka, have you heard her? Oh, you should try to interview her. She is fantastic. She is a religious studies professor at NC State, and she's written two books, american cosmic and encounters. You have to read those, Sean. Okay. And what she does, like a lot of researchers, she just interviews people. But she's found people who have touched these crash retrieval programs and they wish to remain anonymous.

So she gives them pseudo names, but that's really enlightening. And so she's found a NASA engineer who has been a part of these programs and goes through everything. In fact, the second book, they go to an area of the New Mexico desert and where crash retrievals have happened, and they find materials. And she goes with one of the directors of the Soul Foundation, Gary Nolan. She gave him a pseudo name in his book, but he's now come out and acknowledged that he's that person. And again, he wants to advance the scientific study of UAP. He's one of those people who have studied crash materials. He's looked at the material science. He's published a paper on it. And, in fact, if you go to the sole foundation website, all of our talks are online on YouTube. And he gives a talk about that paper, and he studies these materials, and basically, he's proved they're not natural. They all had to be made with some kind of industrial process, and they're not native of this earth. They include components that have not been seen before. Isotope ratios. They've never been seen before. So that's very interesting.

What kind of stuff has he recovered?

Is it the stuff I've seen in his lab are just sort of metallic fragments now, of course, out there. And what Dave Grush, in the hearing that I was attended last year, he, of course, has claimed that there's, I think, more than just fragments, but I.

Don'T know, human biology or non human biology.

That's right. That's right.

What does that even mean?

Alien?

Is that like, a skin sample?

No, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

Do you think Rush is. You think that's legit?

He's totally legit. Absolutely, 100%. I know people who. I don't know him. I've not met him, but I know people who do know him well and work with him, and I kind of know his pedigree. I also worked in the navy as an oceanographer. I was actually part of a larger information warfare community. So I worked closely with the office of Naval Intelligence and the national geospatial intelligence agency, where he was. In fact, I know the last five directors personally and have. So that he is what he says he is, 100%. And so, yeah, sure of everything he's. And I also know how the government works. So, like, for example, he talks about these saps that he couldn't get access to, but he knew people who were. And they were telling him about it, these special access programs. And I've had that happen to me, too. Where. And this is like the Wilson memo. Do you know about that?

No, I don't.

Okay. I never thought I'd be so well versed in UAP lore to stump someone like you, but here we go. The Wilson memo is something. I forgot how it was leaked, but a physicist named Eric Davis, who was supposedly in the program, the UAP retrieval program, I don't know for sure, but he drafted a memo that got leaked, and it was a memo recording his interview with Admiral Wilson, who had a top intel job, and he was complaining that he heard about a UAP retrieval program and this memo. And this is the interview that he transcribed. Davis transcribed, and he was complaining that he couldn't get access to it because he didn't have a need to know. And I. When I read that, it reminded me of me, because here I was, a one star. My people were working with technology under a certain SAP, and I wanted to learn about that more so I could better. Make better decisions for my people. And I had the SAP control officer say, no, no, no, sir. You don't have a need to know. And I thought that was B's. Here I am. I'm responsible for their well being.

I got to make sure they have all they need if they're using something. This is totally in my right to, because I am responsible for their outcomes and their well being, to know what they're working with. Oh, no. What if it was hazardous to their health? Nope. Nope. You don't need to know, sir. So that's what brush was talking about. That these people running the crash retrieval program are. They're leaving Congress in the dark, and they're not letting others with authority and responsibility know, either. And that gets down to being illegal.

I mean, it sounds like a rogue entity.

Totally.

Who would be running that?

Exactly. That. That's not how our government's supposed to work. Not according to the constitution as I know it.

Is it government?

Well, I don't know. I don't know. But again, the most recent article from Chris Mellon today, I believe there is some air force oversight. I've also heard that there are contractors involved, big defense contractors, who, of course, have an interest in not letting that technology get out because they don't want to have to compete to use it. They want to have that exclusive right. So there's. I believe that's going on. I don't know for sure.

Let's go into the interdimensional stuff. What do you know about that?

So. I don't know anything.

You don't know anything?

I really don't. I mean, this is all. This is all people theorizing. I know there's a lot of math out there that. That can characterize multiple dimensions. String theory is one of them. And it's funny because Avi Loeb just thinks string theorists are worthless, because he just doesn't. He doesn't think. There's no evidence. He's about, okay, show me the data. If there are other dimensions, I want to see the data. And that's kind of like grush. He said he's not. No one's seen the alien bodies yet, or. But now I have another story if you want to get into that. There's a well known UAP legend out there on Nixon and Jackie Gleason. Do you know about that? Here I am again. I never thought I'd be such a wealth of UAP stories. Okay, so Jackie Gleason was friends with Nixon, and he was kind of a UFO nut for some reason. And this has just come out, you can google it, that there's some legend that before Nixon left office, he went with gleason to an air force base in the south, and he showed him what was supposed to be a UFO with aliens, like, in some warehouse.

Aliens that perished in some kind of crash. Now, this is the legend, right? Okay. Interestingly, I'm fishing in Key west last year, and my guide was pretty interested in this topic, and he connected me to another fisherman who I had a nice call with. And he's. He's been interviewed on this publicly. His name is Mark Croca. And Mark sees has been seeing UAP in the skies off the keys for over ten years. And, like, big lighted, cylindrical type objects that are clearly not us aircraft. And he's actually seen jets from, I believe, one, the Florida Air Force base down there, sortie after these things or scramble. So Mark and I talked about it. He's seen these often. And he shared with me about this Jackie Gleason thing, because he said when he was a kid, he worked as a. An assistant or janitor. Janitor in this clubhouse in Florida that Jackie Gleason used to golf at. And his wife. And he met his wife after, I think he passed. And she shared that story and stated it was 100% legit that Gleason saw what he saw. It disturbed him a lot. He didn't eat for a week.

He was so just upset with. His whole worldview had been changed. And. But this is. This is, again, hearsay from a friend. But fishermen are really good observers, by the way. And this guy didn't have any reason to, like, give me a story. He doesn't make his money off this. He's so. Mark. But Mark has that knowledge of that whole story.

Interesting. I mean, there's a lot of speculation on whether these are built by the military industrial complex type companies or are they from foreign governments. Are they paranormal activity? What are your thoughts on all of that?

Well, one of the experts on this field is Jacques Vallee. He's been researching UAP for. Since the sixties. He's. He's just the expert. And he's I like his thinking. So I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm still new to this whole field, but I like his thinking on it. And he gives a really good talk at the Soul foundation symposium. He gave one in, it's online. And he just characterized the fact that they are real people, have real experiences. And Diana Psoka does the same thing in her book encounters. She just chronicles all these experiences. And people are having, a lot of people are having really strange experiences there. Many see craft. There's a paranormal component to it with either telepathic communication or other things. And I mean, I don't, I don't dismiss any of it. This is what Jacques says. He says all that can be said is there is just a, a massive diversity in the types of experiences people have. You have one camp that call it, they're just focused on the nuts and bolts craft, and then you have people that are looking at that more paranormal aspect of it. And that's what exists.

It's sort of like a spectrum of experiences. And I don't dismiss any of it. To me, it's people are having experiences, they report it, they're credible people and there's a lot of them. And thus my goal is to scientifically study it more and remove the stigma from it.

How are you going to remove the.

Stigma shows like yours, this one right here, getting it out there, and here's the reason that I'm out talking about this one, is more credible people stepping up will help remove that stigma. And then also what's interesting is over time you'll see a generational shift in that. There are a lot more young people open to this right now. It's just they think about it and they have more open minds. Interestingly, there's a parallel here that I've talked about in some of my speeches. Diana Pasuca talks in her book. She interviews a person named Ea Whiteley. And she's also one of these researchers that's helping with the sole foundation effort to study UAP and the phenomena. And her expertise is psychology. And she has made her living, if you will, by studying both cockpit psychology, if you will, and human factors, as well as space capsule human factors. And so she's advised the ESA, I believe. And she noticed that in the fifties, let's say, after World War Two, there was a big stigma for pilots to report safety issues in the cockpit because they would fear that if they couldn't handle something, they might get a low rating and get a poor performance evaluation.

And it was the macho thing, the right stuff. No one's going to admit they couldn't handle a certain thing. And it was only after a lot of planes fell out of the sky and pilots died that safety measures started to be studied, and reporting for incidents in the cockpit about safety issues became accepted. And she studied this over time, and it took 25 years for that change to occur, which is a professional generation. And I think that's what's happening now. Congress has gotten out, a lot of credible scientists have gotten out. People like me, former national authorities, we are coming out to remove that stigma, to make this a credible scientific endeavor. I'm even working with a group to establish a master's degree program in UAP studies. So that's happening, and then I think that's what's going to remove the stigma, and it's already occurring.

What's that going to entail, the master's degree on UAP studies?

Yeah. Well, really, I'd love to see a physics based or engineering based one, but that information is not out there yet. In terms of crash retrieval, this one's going to be a humanities based one that looks at some of the cultural and anthropological and societal issues around UAP, which there are many. I mean, if we're being visited by other civilizations with huge technology powers, what does that mean for society and everything else that could be possible with that?

I mean, do you think there's different kinds? Do you think that there is a possibility that some of these are kind of nuts and bolts types, crafts and some are maybe. Maybe something to do with consciousness? Maybe something to do with some type of spirituality type stuff? I mean, what are you thinking?

I think the answer is yes.

Both to both.

I do. I do think about this. So again, evolution, if we, technology wise, walk our species forward a thousand, a million years, my gosh. I mean, what will we have? I told you earlier, I was the last naval academy class not to have a computer. I wrote papers on an actual typewriter. Now with one of these, I can access everything that humankind has ever discovered just with a few clicks. So think about what about that. So with that in mind, it could be anything. So think about the evolution of both technology and the human brain and thought. So I accept our consciousness as what it is. But what about that evolving, too? Think about that higher. A higher, a more highly evolved species will have a more highly evolved consciousness. We're not neanderthals anymore. We're something we think is higher. And I think that's true. Walk that a thousand, a million years, then what are we going to be like. So I think that's. And Diana Pasilka does a great job looking into that consciousness aspect of it, because then you're also bordering or you're really overlapping with religion now. And that's what she is.

She's professor of religious studies. And get this, she's terrific. She is. She has access to the Vatican archives because of her position as a professor of religious studies. And she has gone through and looked at all these church history, and she has in her book American Cosmic and Encounters. And now in recent talks, she's pretty much deduced that these ascent narratives that exist in the Bible and the church history have some uap, either connection or explanation. So Diana, in her book Encounters and then American Cosmic, and then some of her talks later, she's looked at some of the church's history and writings from biblical scholars, and she has found that there are examples of apparitions, or what they call ascent narratives, that. That are indicative of actual uap. So, encounters. So, for example, there's this really famous story of Saint Francis of Assisi. I believe he was the one who cared for animals, and a lot of people wear pendants with him featured on that. And the story is that he saw an angel, and the angel somehow connected to him, and he received the wounds of Christ in his hands. And there's paintings out there.

There's one in the Louver I just saw, and it shows the angel, and these beams are shooting down into his hands. And he's having that moment where he connects with Jesus Christ and maybe his messenger. And so Diana has gone to the Vatican archives and looks up the actual story, like, not what you read about in church in a sermon, but the latin text. And this wasn't some, like, beautiful beatit, beatific, whatever you say. Beautiful angel giving his good graces or her great graces to St. Francis. He's experiencing horrible wounds. He has pain, and he even, I think, dies from them. And he doesn't describe it as an angel. He describes it basically as some, what probably is a craft, and this is radiation or something. So I don't know the exact nature of it. But she clearly, in her study of this, has found instances of these visitations of beings, and they're not as angelic and nice as we'd like to think they are.

Wow. I mean, which way are you leaning? Do you lean more one way than the other?

So, again, I can just acknowledge that this is occurring. I don't know exactly what it all is. I'm open to any possibility. And all of the above. If that's really what's happening again, I can speak to only what I know and what data I see. And that's why we need to keep moving forward with research and more universities coming on board and studying this, and me at my level, I want these, the national academies who, I'm on one of their boards, as well as the White House, I'm on one of their advisory committees. I want them to start taking this stuff seriously and put together the best scientists in the world to get at it.

When it comes to kind of exploring underwater stuff and coming from inside the earth, I mean, where do we start to explore that?

Well, this is what I think we should do. We already have a pretty active exploration effort nationally with my former agency NOAA, and they coordinate with others. For example, that one program I mentioned with a dedicated ship and with RoV, we also end up funding other groups. My friend Robert Ballard, discoverer of Titanic, he has his own group called the Ocean Exploration Trust, and his own ship. And so NOAA funds him. They fund a few others. And then you have universities doing some of this work too. And then you even have people in the private sector looking for oil and gas. I think what we need to do is harness that ongoing effort nationally and globally, of exploring our ocean and ensuring that UAP, these underwater objects, are a part of the research targets and agenda, because right now no one's looking for them, really. No one considers them worthy of scientific study. So when a ship goes out, they don't say, we're going to study plankton and maybe some undersea vents and we're going to look for UAP. They don't do that. In fact, here's a good example, and it's in this paper I wrote for the Sowell Foundation, Richard Dolan, in his book that's not yet been published, but I looked at the draft.

He cites a study, or, pardon me, a story reported in a Navy log, the USS Maury, I think it was 1946, reported, and they were a bathroom metric survey ship. They were using sonar, a map, the seafloor, and they had primitive sonar. Back then they only had an echo sounder, which is like one beam looking down. Now we have a multi beam, which is sort of like a fan. It can do a lot more mapping. And they reported they're mapping this area in the Pacific and they reported a large object. So what happened is the, all of a sudden they saw really shallow depth recordings for a long time, maybe even over a football field size, probably, and, and then, um. And then it went, then it kind of disappeared. And they thought, what the hell is that? Is that, is that some kind of undersea mountain? And they went back and they didn't, it didn't exist anymore. Now you can get reflections, sonar reflections from things like plankton, but not, not really hard echoes. So that, that was an example of them. And they just basically threw the data out. So the idea would be, let's be open to that kind of stuff.

And by the way, again, I know of classified data where you could see the stuff in imagery. So we should be using all the things we have overhead that looks at the ocean. Like NASA has satellites that look at the ocean. So does NOAA. We should be taking everything we have, ships, and just, I guess, opening the aperture to not just study the earth and the ocean, but to look for UAP, too.

Interesting.

And that's, that's what I want to do at this national level with this thing called the Ocean Research Advisory panel that advises the White House on ocean issues. I'm on it. And I want to get UAV, UAP to be a national ocean research priority and put in directives like that. So the way it works here, the White House every year puts a thing out called something like the Fy whatever R and D priorities memo. And this year's, and the ones when I was in the Trump administration, we'd have artificial intelligence on there. We had ocean exploration on there. And so we should, I want to get UAP in the ocean and atmosphere on that letter now. Again, right now, you need an administration that's going to buy off on that kind of policy. And right now, we're not seeing those signals. So.

Interesting. Interesting. Well, let's take a quick break.

Yeah.

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That was a pretty interesting conversation. Let's pick it up there.

Let's do it. So this is interesting. I talked about the science and technology aspect of what we could discover by looking into UAP more. That's just incredible what we could find. But then there's this maritime security aspect. And think about this. Okay. We know we're seeing objects. Like the USS Omaha saw an object go in the water, a UFO. I told you about these other incidents, like in Canada. And then there's other reports and classified information. I know of. Well, of overhead imagery that have seen these things. But. So if we. Things are basically roaming at will in our water space, what does that say about our maritime security? So think about this. Navy submarines, they are incredibly vigilant in not interacting with the bottom when they can. I told you about those two collisions and other submarines and objects. They have these detailed procedures they call water space management whenever they're operating in a training area and. Or an operational area. And they also have this protocol they call prevention of mutual interference. PMI, WSM. PMI. And. And they are religious about it, of course, because this is. This is. Will ruin your day.

We've had submarine accidents in the past, like the thresher and the scorpion. We don't want to do that. Plus, there are nuclear reactors on board. We don't need those things contaminating the water. All sorts of reasons to do our due diligence and not having submarines inadvertently hit something. And. But these things. And I mentioned that submariner who I talked about in his observation, they are roaming at will in our water space. And if we don't even know the full extent of how they're operating in the water space, how are we going to do against the Chinese in the western Pacific, which is a matter of sooner rather than later in terms of taking Taiwan.

Yeah, I think that's coming down the pipe really soon, too.

Yeah, absolutely is. I mean, you see what they're doing? They're preparing for a long haul. They're doing everything that you would expect them to do in terms of energy stockpiling, building coal plants, all these things that would. That they need to be ready for. If we impose sanctions against them, preventing energy supply and other trade issues like that. They're preparing for it. All the open source reports show it clearly.

I don't know how we would prevent energy supply. How would we prevent energy supply? They've got the lithium mines in Afghanistan that we've abandoned. They've got lithium mines all over Mexico. They've got pretty much of iranian oil, iranian oil, russian coal. I mean, it seems like they've got that pretty much.

They're going to do fine.

Do you think any, let's say that does kick off, which I don't want, you think we're going to see any of this new technology become exposed? If that were to kick off?

That's interesting because highly likely. Well, and here's what I. Some people say, oh, if there was that kind of technology in the hands of the government or a contractor being UAP technology, we would have already seen it on the battlefield and I'd say that may be partially valid. First of all, from what I understand, we've not been very good at reverse engineering. We tried, but this is just from some sources. And the other aspect is that I don't know if we would have deployed it and what we've been involved with currently.

That's what I was going to bring up.

I don't see an application.

What would we have deployed it up against?

Yeah, right. Exactly.

And how would it have helped?

Yeah, no, certainly not in Iraq and Afghanistan. But China could be a different thing in terms of undersea capabilities. That's what's going to be very interesting.

For us or for them, undersea capabilities?

Both. Because think about this. What if they have reverse engineered something that we don't know about? Now, after I left the government, I didn't keep my clearance, so I don't know of anything. But they have. From the time I left the navy in 2017 to now, they have surged. They've become the largest navy in the world. That's. That's daunting.

Yeah. Yeah.

In a very short time.

Yeah, I think it would be. I mean, I think it would be very interesting. I mean, I hope we don't go there, but if world War three kicks off or a China US, Russia type Iran war kicks off, I mean, I think we're going to see some new technologies get unveiled.

Yeah. Yeah, that'll be. Well, I know what. It's already happening and it's not necessarily being withheld, and that's drone technology, so there's an interesting thing. And space. Yeah, exactly. The thing that's a field I'm steeped in and do for my consulting is ocean drone programs. And that's really advanced in a huge way. And that's what's interesting is, okay, you asked me earlier, okay, what should be done? Well, we need to explore more of our ocean. We need to consider UAP when we explore it, but. And how are we going to do it? Well, we currently have ships, satellites, and we have a good amount of drones. A lot of companies, a lot of government agencies like mine are using different types of ocean drones to monitor and measure ocean properties. And that is just expanding rapidly. And in fact, I just read about Australia getting a very large ocean, a UUV uncrewed underwater vehicle that they were able to build rapidly and are going to be fielding. So that's an area that's going to proliferate and that can be brought to bear in looking for more under C UAP and should be, it's less expensive.

Ship time is very costly and the technology is rapidly advancing. And in fact, there's a. I wrote an article in the US Naval Institute proceedings about this. I said it was titled something like ocean drones, a revolution and ocean robots or something. And. But it's. I kind of chronicled the history of ocean uncrewed systems. We used some targets, I think, in the twenties, surface vessels that were uncrewed for aerial targets. And then, and then I think in the fifties, University of Washington did the first uncrewed underwater vehicle, or autonomous underwater vehicle, to go into the arctic ice. And then it just exploded after that. And right now, and regarding China, the DoD has initiated this program called replicator. And some of my companies that I work for are going after it. And they, to prevent Taiwan from being invaded, they want to flood the western Pacific with thousands of what they call a tradable all domain autonomous systems. So kinetic things that can autonomously go and just saturate any kind of attempt to invade from the ocean.

Wow.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah, that's interesting. So that's just caused all of the industry in the US and elsewhere to start scaling up big time in terms of using autonomous systems. And I think these can all be employed for looking at the ocean too, in a way that will make it, again, much more. Less opaque as it is and hard to understand.

I mean, you know, going back to seeing maybe some technologies become unveiled, I mean, I got a couple of questions. I didn't even know how to structure these, but. So I'm just going to fire them off randomly. But, you know, you had watched. You had mentioned that you had seen the UFO whistleblower series ahead.

Yeah.

What did you think about the gentleman that was in Antarctica as a firefighter that was talking about that?

Yeah.

Neutrino laser.

Yeah. Yeah.

What do you. I mean, you're the perfect person to ask about this.

Well, unfortunately, I don't know. I wasn't tapped in or read into anything involving that, so I don't know. I don't have firsthand knowledge. But here's what I could tell you is certainly, in the last few months, the more I'm learning about what has been covered up and developed, if you will, or is or both. I don't dismiss anything. Now, I'm willing to take anything at its face value. Really? And like your friend Michael Herrera and what he observed, that with some paramilitary force from an agency we don't know and with a UAP and et cetera, I would have dismissed that last year, but not now. The things I'm seeing in the way that we're just not acknowledging what we're doing.

Well, the reason I'm asking about the neutrino laser in particular is weather. You know, weather manipulation. We've seen all these things that used to be kind of conspiracy ish are now kind of hitting the mainstream. Things like. I mean, I remember thinking it was crazy talk, talking about chemtrails from airplanes.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

You know, and people would tell me, oh, I think it's hormones being released, something to reflect the sunlight off the earth. Well, I mean, now, a couple weeks ago, we just saw here in Tennessee that we're banning chemtrails.

Oh, that's right.

There was the Hawaii wildfire stuff, which, you know, I don't know how true this stuff is, either. Or if it's. If it's complete b's or if it's real. But it was. You know, there was this conspiracy that none of the. What was it? None of the blue roofs in Hawaii were burnt.

I did not hear about that.

Yep. Yep. And so, in every time one of these things hits, like, the wildfires thing, that episode about the Antarctica.

Oh, yeah.

Laser. It always gets, like, these. This boost. And so the latest. The latest one was the. Because he was saying that these lasers can cause earthquakes.

Oh, okay. I missed that part of it. Wow. Really? Yeah.

He says that these lasers can cause earthquakes somehow. And then the latest one that happened in Taiwan was, like, the latest boost where it got brought up again.

And I have something to say about that. Earthquakes. Not necessarily this laser. Yeah. There's two things I see, from my experience in the government, one, they're covering stuff up, and I get it. Certain things we don't want adversaries to see, but either withholding things from Congress or the public, that should not be withheld, that's wrong. And that's why I'm speaking out. The other thing I see, too, is that sometimes it's not necessarily purposeful. Their government's just not necessarily super competent areas. And the case with earthquakes. So I work with a number of real innovative, cutting edge companies, and one of them has found that if you monitor the ionosphere, they call it space weather, you monitor the ionosphere. What has been shown, and people have published on this, that before a big earthquake, when plates are starting to buckle, it's basically like a giant semiconductor. You got a lot of metal and energy, and it produces in the ionosphere a super big peak in a thing called total electron count. And so the kind of, the ionosphere gets all energized. And what is the ionosphere? Oh, it's an upper part of the atmosphere where you don't have, you can't, there's not really air.

And so, and you see, yeah, so you have this electromagnetic field that gets generated, and you can see it from space with certain sensors, and you can monitor it. And in all these studies, before a big earthquake, you see these peaks in the ionosphere. I won't say it looks like the aurora borealis or northern lights, but it's kind of like that where it's visible in data.

You're seeing this before the earthquake.

Before the earthquake. Okay. Before the earthquake. Papers have been written. If anybody's interested, they should Google earthquake precursor, inspire and inspires, the acronym of a European Space Agency study on this phenomena. So I saw this company that I'm working with called precursor, and they have this capability with satellites and other sensors to monitor this and potentially produce an earthquake. Earthquake early warning capability. Okay? Earthquakes cause the amount of devastation on the order of a world war. Okay? Think about the Tohoku earthquake in tsunami. So why would we not look at every possible means to warn on earthquakes? Oh. So I go to the us geological survey and I say, hey, how about funding some R and D on this or whatever? Let's have a meeting. And they immediately responded categorically, no, our policy is that earthquakes cannot be predicted. And of course, they define prediction of having some precision with respect to time and location and magnitude. And I kind of wanted, I wanted to say, wait, wait, wait, wait. Don't sit there and look at your little narrow criteria. Open your mind and think, maybe we can provide an early warning service. Hey, public high chance probability of an earthquake is not zero today or something like that.

They just refuse to look at it. And what I mean by that, my point is, is that there are a lot of what I think are straightforward ways we should be moving forward in certain areas, and the government is just stuck in its own little way of doing things. And this is just the case in point. So, you know, Japan's looking into it now, and we're going after Japan and even California with some of their messed up politics. At least northern California is looking at, looking into possibly working with us in this company to do some prototyping, if you will.

Interesting. The government just blew it off.

Oh, yeah.

We don't want to warn anybody.

No, no, we're, this is, we're all seismologists. We're, we're not going to think outside the box. Here's the, another analogy to that thinking is so weather forecasting, when you look at the damage of a hurricane, also on the order of a war, is important that we, we provide good predictions. And we do actually, now we're really good at weather forecasting. We can days in advance, multiple days in advance, sometimes even a week, we can have a very accurate understanding of what a hurricane is going to do. There's areas to improve, but still, compared to the last 50 years, we're doing great. Why is that? Well, we became multidisciplinary. We decided to take ocean observations and learn how they heat up the atmosphere, possibly like the Gulf Stream, and contribute to things like hurricane intensification. And then we also added some components about the ice. And so we started looking at the whole earth as a system, rather than just the weather, the atmosphere, knowing that's really what's going on. And so I've asked the USGS, why don't you think about the earth's system and not just your little rocks in the crust, but the whole thing?

And they just refused to do it, man.

I mean, what do you know about weather manipulation?

Yeah, that's something I've studied. They call it geoengineering, and it's physically possible. And even there's some studies being conducted right now, because you have a lot of people that certainly these alarmists over climate change, which I don't dispute is occurring, but I think a lot of people are overreacting. They're looking into that, like we might need to do it to keep some of these changes from occurring. I'm currently not convinced it can be done but I don't know if it's smart, because there's all sorts of feedback mechanisms in the atmosphere and the ocean, the earth system that can occur. And what if we do a little bit of that and then things go wild? I think we need to research the hell out of that a lot more with models before we do any type of experimentation.

I mean, isn't UAE currently conducting some type of weather manipulation? They were right now, and they just flooded Dubai.

That's right. That's right. So I have not been able to look at data behind that, so I don't. I only saw news reports, so I don't know if that was a cause and effect. There certainly is a correlation, but that's my kind of point, is we ought to be studying this a lot more so, so we could know in advance if something like that will happen. And right now, I don't think we've done enough.

Where I'm kind of going with this is, do you think we could see any weather manipulation type weapons like.

Yeah, that's been studied. It has? Oh, yeah.

What has been studied?

Oh, the air force did this a while ago, using weather modification as a weapon, which, when you look at what a typhoon can do, that can certainly be an advantage in the western Pacific with Taiwan. Roll a typhoon into an attempted chinese invasion, and that it will be just like what happened to Japan when I think it was Kubla Khan, tried to invade twice, and the kamikaze, the great wind, tore through the armada and took out the Mongols. Do you know about that, man?

I don't.

This is my field of study, so I don't remember the year, but Japan was twice threatened with an invasion by the Mongols. And I think, I thought one of the cons. I don't remember which one. And both times, a typhoon rolled through the regions, I think it was near, maybe Okinawa, I don't know where, but. And wiped him out. And so they gave a name for that typhoon, the phenomena. They called it the great or the divine wind. That's what kamikaze means, divine wind.

Interesting.

Yeah. And also, there's all sorts of history, if you want to go into that, the environment and weather. Sir Francis Drake and the spanish armada. Another storm wiped out the spanish armada when they tried to invade England, and he got very lucky with that one. And then you look at World War two, we caught the Germans off guard in Normandy because we had better weather forecasts. If you look at weather, kind of goes from west to east, and you want observations upwind and all the observation networks that we had were in the US, Canada, and so the Allies had a good upwind observation network. Germans didn't. And what happened is the Germans saw the forecast and thought, there's no way they're going to invade today. It's. It's too rough. So, actually, it was. I think Rommel was in charge of that defending force, and he went to Paris to celebrate his wife's birthday, and he wasn't even there. And what happened is, Eisenhower had planned for one day, June, it might have been fourth, and, uh, and the weather was going to be too bad. And they called it off, and he wasn't sure when they do it again, because it was about the tides and the moon and the obstacles in the beach that the UDTs, your predecessors had to remove.

And then there was a weather window, and we realized it would be good on June 6. A short time, we could do it, and we knew that, and the Germans didn't, and we caught them off guard. Wow. Big part of the invasion success story.

Did not know that. How long ago did we start looking into weather manipulation?

Well, I don't remember the history exactly, but I know the air force did that after World War two, and I don't know too much of the science behind it, because it seems to me that the scale would be really large in terms of cost. And then again, there's so much uncertainty in the earth system in terms of predicting it, that, again, I think you just need to research the hell out of that before you do anything.

Yeah, yeah. Do you. Do you think that we have done any weather manipulation before?

I don't know. I don't know. I probably would know, too, if we had, so I really doubt it. In my last job, I think I would have known.

Okay. You know, another thing that's. That's coming up, and I'm hoping to get this gentleman on the show as well, is these energy weapons.

Directed energy weapons.

Directed energy weapons.

That's taking off for sure.

Yeah, it sounds. Chris Miller, former suck Dev told me that we were really close to having the dome like Israel has.

That's right.

And there's another gentleman who developed these directed energy weapons, and they're starting to be employed all over the place.

We're putting lasers. We've put a laser on a ship, a destroyer, I believe, and, yeah, in my mind, we haven't done that fast enough.

Do you think where I'm going with this is the retrieval program? How are these things crashing? And do you think that maybe we might be. I mean, it seems so here's an interesting thing, maybe a little over.

I mean, here's what the crash phenomenon is interesting because some people think, ah, if they're so advanced, how do they mess up? And there's a couple ways to address that. One is, well, maybe statistically they're maybe coming here so frequently that statistically, one, there might be some kind of component failure or just it's going to happen, the law of averages, if you will. But that's one way. Another in Diana's book, Diana Pasilka encounters, she interviews this NASA engineer, I think he was a contractor, so not a federal employee, and he calls them donations, that possibly they're doing this on purpose to help advance our society or something. Give us little breadcrumbs, if you will, technology breadcrumbs to assist. I don't know the veracity of that, but I just know that's what she puts in her book. So that's an interesting aspect of it.

Very interesting. Very interesting. So we were talking about a underwater terrain feature off the coast of California that some may speculate there may be an underwater UAP base there. What were you speaking of?

Well, so this book I refer to, Preston Dennett is the author. It's even in the title. Something like Uso's and Alien undersea base or something. I don't remember the exact title, but yeah, so he interviewed all these eyewitnesses of different types of UAP activity in SoCal. And this has also appeared in a few shows. One of them like UFO witness, I believe, with Ben Hansen, where, and a few others where they anchored off this feature. It looks like an undersea mesa in Google Earth. And it's about, it's off of Point Magoo. And in Google Earth, the way it's rendered is it does look a little bit artificial or man made. And so they and him and Preston Dennett and his book and these shows, they've all speculated on it. Look at its structure. It can't be natural. And the reality is you can go to the us geological surveys data and find it online and then you can look at the real feature. And it is entirely natural. As weird as it looks in Google Earth, because Google Earth does some filtering. And in fact, there's also some talk in different areas around the world.

One is in Antarctica, off Antarctica, in the southern Ocean, that have these very linear features in Google Earth. They kind of stand out. And some people have thought, oh my gosh, that's alien infrastructure. And I just have to dismiss all that because you just have to understand the source of the data. In Google Earth, for example, they merge different data sets, and then they might filter out the resolution of one feature that might have a higher resolution and not another. For example, those linear features are basically just the fact that most of that ocean area has been under sampled. There might just be a few soundings in a wide area, but one ship collected high resolution data over a track. So they'll have that in the Google Earth, and you'll see it nice and resolved, and then it'll be kind of smoothed out. And so it makes it look like a man made feature, and it's just the data.

That's it.

Yeah, but going back to this undersea alien base, this is where I want to weave in some of this disinformation. By who? The government? Possibly. I don't know. But there was a point in time this year where I was having some public discussions about the. The possibility of, again, of USO's interacting with the seabed and wanting to then go and do bathrometric surveys to search for those types of interactions. I even found a feature off SoCal that might just be that. I can't explain it. It's part of this kind of ridge, underwater ridge, that a section has been carved out of it as it appears, and it's been moved horizontally 2 km. It's a big clump of rocks. Normally when you get these things like landslides in the ocean, they're called turbidity flows. It's like an avalanche. They just sort of slough off right down the, down the terrain feature. But this thing looked like it was carved out. And I took it to some geologist friends. I don't know how that happened. And so I want to get an Rov on that feature and check it out, and I'm working on that. But then there's this other aspect of the one that people, I told you I don't think were actually accurate in calling this other feature.

I think it's called sycamore. Knoll is the name. It was an undersea base, and I don't think it was. Well, weirdly, when I started talking out about this in Google Earth, the feature was filtered out entirely, the sycamore null. Now you can't even see it. It's plain as day in the USGS database. Why would someone go to Google Earth and have that feature removed? Who did that? Why? I don't know. But again, the more I learn about our government's active disinformation campaign and the story of that guy, Paul Benowitz, anything's possible now.

Wow. Yeah, I'm with you. Do you have any other insight into government disinformation? Any other examples?

Gosh, there's probably many, but I can't think of any real.

I'm sure there are. I'm just curious. I just want to pick your brain.

Yeah. And I'll be clear again, it's worth me saying this. I am okay with us not acknowledging really important programs for national security. Unacknowledged programs are good for our nation. I just think that the fact that we're not letting the public in Congress know that we are being visited by entities whose intentions we don't understand and characteristics and nature we don't understand, that genie is out of the bottle. I think you know the Schumer amendment. This is what was drafted last year and was almost passed, including words like technology of unknown origin, non human intelligence, and what was the UAP. All of those are in that bill multiple times, that draft. And. And the fact that that got into draft legislation means it's there. There's something there. There's. And we know that because I know some of the people who briefed the hill, and even though it wasn't passed in the final NDA, most of that stuff was stripped out. Like I said, it's out there now. We have to reconcile this and really inform our public to do the right thing for our nation's security.

Do you think we've had communications with non human intelligence?

I'm sure of it. I'm sure of it. Just based on all this data and everything we're talking about, what do you.

Think these communications would look like?

I don't know. I don't know. But I mean, actually, if you look at Diana Pasoka's book again, encounters this one, former NASA engineer, he called the crashes that were retrieved donations. That's a form of communication right there. I don't know the nature of the communication initially, who was doing the communicating, but I am pretty sure from what I've seen from my sources, very sure, highly that's occurred now with who parts of the government or just individuals? And actually, by the way, if you just. When you say we, if you mean the us government, yeah. But as individuals, there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of eyewitnesses who feel they've been communicated to. Mm hmm. And different ways.

Are you familiar with Chris Bledsoe?

Yeah, I am.

What do you think about that?

Well, I'm not qualified comment on any of the validity of what he reports, but he's not alone. In what he's reported, there's many people who have had encounters. Diana's book, second book, is called Encounters, and that's the very topic so many people have been communicated to. And, and it's interesting. And I got to say this, too. If you look at the diversity of life on this planet, I mean, you just got to dive on a coral reef, for goodness sake, then why would there not be a diversity of higher order, non human intelligence in the universe? It just makes a lot of sense. And if that's the case, like, look at all of our different nations that have different cultures, and some get along and some don't. It's just, it's not a stretch to think there were a variety of higher order, non human intelligences with different agendas. Some might be malevolent, some might be benevolent. Who knows? Or just totally neutral. That just is more and more likely as the phenomena, I think, is better understood.

Wow. Well, Tim, what's next for you? I know you got a book on leadership coming up that's going to be released at the end of the year.

I do. I do. Well, thanks for asking about it. So from my time in the Navy and, you know, you served as a seal. I was blessed to be given some great role models and leadership, and then I was given opportunities to lead, and I came to this agency, NOAA, with that. And, and this is a big part of what I do now. I mentor everybody who asked me to do it, and I want to bring up that next generation. People were so good to me in my career. They carried me along the way. It's just the right thing to do to pay forward what was done for me. And my book is written for that purpose, to provide my leadership examples and lessons, if you will, from what I learned in the Navy and applied at NOAA scientific Agency. And it was, again, I told you it was kind of a tough time because we always were getting our budget cut and people wanted, didn't they wanted some inspiration. And thankfully, I had a scientific degree and they liked that. And I just talk about the examples of trying to help people in tough times when there's uncertainty.

And so I provide a lot of stories. The best leadership books to me are telling stories, I think Bill McRaven, Admiral McRaven's books are fantastic. They do that. I don't like preachy books that are pedantic and kind of just tell you how to be. I don't need to be told how to be. I'm kind of at the tail end of my career what I want to do is just share insights. And so I have some fun stories to relate. One of them is like, have you ever heard of Miranda Cosgrove?

I haven't.

She was the star of the Nickelodeon show iCarly. And so she's also, at one point, was the highest paid child actress ever or something. And so I know of her because my daughter, youngest daughter, had watched her show 24/7 it seemed like while she was growing up. And I never really liked the show because the character is really snotty and precocious. But I had the opportunity to represent my agency at an event on the hill, a big event, recognizing this thing that we were in charge of called the Marine Mammal Protection act. One of our jobs was to help protect whales, save the whales. And so I wanted to go to this event and represent us in a good way. That was my job, to be the face, to be a champion for what we did. And I go and I met with a couple congressmen, and then I met with her. And I remember thinking I wasn't sure I wanted to meet her because her character is so awful. But it turns out she's the nicest person ever. And she was very sweet. And we got a nice picture together. And in back of us was a big picture of a humpback whale.

And she signed it and wrote, love, miranda. And what's cool is I got this frame picture and I gave it to my daughter, and now it's still on her bookshelf. It's like the centerpiece. So she didn't give me any respect for being an admiral or a combat veteran. But now that I was friends with iCarly, I was her hero.

Congratulations.

Yeah. How about that? But that wasn't really a leadership example, per se. I mean, I was trying to represent us, but there was another example I might share with you that you might enjoy, just because it's funny. I was in the Navy. I had a chance to represent the nation, basically, at a big conference. This was during the Obama administration, and I was a one star. And the ocean, the conference was called the our Ocean conference. And the State Department hosted. It was downtown, and I got to lead a panel on illegal fishing. I talked about that earlier and what a problem it was back then in 2015. It's even worse now with China is again the main culprit. And so here was the sequence of events, and this was a big event. Foreign ministers, 500 people in the big State Department auditorium, giant screens, speaker podium. So the first person to get up and talk was then secretary of State John Kerry, he goes, he talks. The second person to talk was President Obama. He gets and talk. Actually, he's a good speaker. Again, I'm not a fan of his politics, but he's a very charismatic speaker.

And then the next person to get up and talk was Leo DiCaprio. Leonardo. And it's funny because here he is. He's a great actor. And when he got up there and gave a speech on the ocean conservation work he was doing, he just read it. I mean, there was no emotion. Obama was just like he is. And then Leo, this actor, just read it line by line. It was the driest, dullest thing I ever seen. I was so disappointed. So was my aide, actually, but she still got his autograph. The next person to speak was me. So I have this lineup I gotta follow. Holy crap. So what I did is I got up there, and again, big screen of me, and I'm in my uniform and everybody's there listening to me. And I. I thought, okay, how am I going to keep these people's attention after those predecessors speaking? And so I thought up a story, and I made this fictitious story, and I said, okay, everybody, great to be here. Thank you. I'm going to tell you right now, I'm a bit intimidated having to follow those all stars. So in thinking about my opening remarks, I decided to ask my wife, who was an oceanographer like me, and this is the, our oceans conference.

I decided to ask Karen, okay, what am I going to say to keep these people's attention? And she said, well, Tim, you know, you might want to share with them this, that really based on all your military service. And by the way, Karen's favorite movie, Titanic, favorite actor, Leonardo DiCaprio. I said, she said, well, why don't you just point out to everybody that the only difference between you and him is that when you were in the Navy, none of your ships ever sank, and everyone kind of got the Titanic link. And they not only started laughing, they gave me a round of applause.

Man, that's a good one.

So a lot of leadership. Yeah, well, there you go. It takes a while to sink in, but a lot of leadership is that kind of thing where you kind of have to diffuse the tension and you have to go big. You kind of have to go on the big stage and represent your people and don't be afraid to do that. And people, especially in a big organization, they want to see their leaders step up and show well. And so I have some stories of my trying to do that I don't know if that happened. We'll see. It's up to the readers to find out.

Well, when does that come out?

It comes out. Well, I'm going to submit it to a publisher in May and we'll see how long the editing takes. But I would bet no later than early next year and again because it was a little shaky. It's called holding fast in heavy seas, leading America's top ocean agency in turbulent times. We'll see where it goes.

Well, I can't wait to get a copy of that. And I just want to wish her the best of luck, and when that does come out, maybe we'll reconnect again.

Hey, I'm up for a part two or three or what have you.

Perfect.

Thank you, Sean.

Well, Tim, I really appreciate your time today and coming and having this conversation with us about uaps and underwater stuff, and always, it's just always fascinating stuff to talk about, and I really appreciate it. Wish you the best of luck.

Thank you, Sean. It's great to be here.

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